Ingrid Mattson – Muslim Traditions on Mourning

Ingrid Mattson
AI: Summary ©
The 16th president of the Union Theological Seminary in New York introduces three members of the group: Dr. Jones, rabbi doctor Bert Burton Visotsky, and Dr. Bert Burton Visotsky. They discuss mourning and the importance of acknowledging its impact on society, particularly in the context of pre- Islamic Arab satisfied with death. The speakers emphasize the need for actions of value, kindness, and charity to pursue a positive life, but stress the tension between heartless actions and comfort in the future, which is a combination of heartless actions and comfort in the future.
AI: Transcript ©
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Well, good afternoon.

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It's a deep honor to be back here

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at Saint Paul's Chapel after last week. Last

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week, we spoke

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about trauma

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and this is the second part in our

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3 part series. Today, we speak about mourning.

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My interlocutors

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in this 3 week discussion

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are seated beside me, and I'd like to

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introduce them

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now before I begin to speak.

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On the far left is doctor

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the Reverend Serene Jones. She is president and

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Roosevelt professor of systematic theology at Union Theological

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Seminary.

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Reverend Jones is the 16th president of the

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historic Union Theological Seminary in the city of

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new New York.

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The first woman to head the a 174

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year old non denominational seminary,

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doctor Jones came to union after 17 years

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at Yale University,

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where she was the Titus Street Professor of

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Theology at the Divinity School

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and Chair of Women, Gender,

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and sexuality studies in the graduate schools of

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arts and sciences.

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Professor Jones' most recent book is trauma and

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grace, theology in a ruptured world.

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A book that has so much relevance for

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our discussions,

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in this series.

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Beside Reverend Jones is rabbi doctor Bert Burton

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Visotsky,

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who is the Appleman professor of Midrash and

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inter religious studies and director of the Louis

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Finkelstein

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Institute for religious and social Studies at JTS.

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He is engaged in inter religious

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dialogue in many exotic locations around the world.

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In

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2007, he was master visiting professor of Jewish

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studies at the PENTIVICO Gregorian University in Rome.

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He's been adjunct professor at Union Theological Seminary

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since 1980

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and his most recent book is Sage Tales,

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Wisdom and Wonder from the Rabbis

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of the Talmud.

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And,

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for some reason,

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Bert and I seem to be in a

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series of trilogy, a number of trilogies. So

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we also are

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now planning for our 2nd year

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in a,

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3 year series on Jews and Muslims in

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America

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between the Jewish Theological Seminary and and Hartford

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Seminary.

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So

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very honored to be here today with them.

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I'll begin by opening with a few remarks

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of my own about mourning

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and then I will invite each of them

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in turn to come up and make a

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few

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introductory remarks to frame the debate or the

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discussion, not debate.

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Once we complete our opening remarks, then we'll

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have a discussion with each other

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about some of the issues raised and,

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look more deeply into some of these very,

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very sensitive issues.

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Following that, we'll have a short

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break and then we'll move on to the

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musical composition.

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As I was thinking about what to say

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about mourning, it struck me that

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this is such a sensitive and personal issue.

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It's one of those things that is very

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difficult to speak about

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in a normative way without

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without making other people feel that somehow

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they're excluded

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or being judged

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or somehow

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touching on other people's sensitivities.

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When we speak about

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from each of each of us from our

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own tradition

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about mourning

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and

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how we do mourn, perhaps how we should

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mourn,

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I think it's important to recognize that

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certainly from my perspective,

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I'm speaking

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about a very

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limited perspective I have on such a grand

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and universal issue.

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I don't think any of us could be

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comprehensive

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or even fully sensitive to all the aspects

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of this

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enduring

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and difficult aspect

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of the human condition.

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Perhaps the way to introduce you

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best to the

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Islamic

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views on mourning practices and beliefs

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is to set it in some contrast

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to the pre Islamic period into which the,

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the Quran and the example of the prophet

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Mohammed

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came to

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both correct,

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support,

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and be in dialogue with those existing traditions.

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And as Muslims throughout the generations

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continue to interpret and understand the relevance of

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these

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these forms of revelation to our daily lives,

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we come to learn more. We learn more

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through the scientific study of human beings,

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how

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mourning affects us physically,

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how human societies are affected by mourning,

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and how,

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historically,

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our societies

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continue to integrate

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aspects

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of our experience

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that will form us from the very beginning,

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our culture of mourning.

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So when

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when Islam was first

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being preached in the pre Islamic

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Arabian Peninsula,

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it encountered a tribal society that did not

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believe in an afterlife.

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The pre Islamic Arabs

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were

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materialists

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who believed that

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this life was all that there was,

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but they weren't bound by any common ethic

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or values

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so they

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could not even refer to a secular value

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system

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that would give them a common sense

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of purpose

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as a community.

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And so for them,

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death was the end, and it was for

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this reason that mourning

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took on incredible significance into this society.

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Ritual mourning

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was perhaps one of the most highly developed

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aspects of pre Islamic Arabian society.

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It really was the end, and it had

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to be demonstrated

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by the people culturally

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that this was a disaster.

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Now, given that there was no continuity to

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life, and in fact, there were really no

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collective institutions

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to which

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even

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the idea of good works

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that could continue in charity and that generations

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could build upon,

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given the absence of those,

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how did a human being respond to the

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sense

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of finality of death?

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The only way, the only way to have

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continuity

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was to have your name live on.

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The way your name would live on

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was through the stories

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that others would tell about you.

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Subscribed,

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infamy was as good as

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fame.

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Whether you were remembered

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for the most notorious

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acts of banditry

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or you were remembered

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for the most generous

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acts

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of kindness,

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in the end, it was all the same

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because you would be remembered.

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And

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poems were made

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describing the exploits

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and the activities of both kinds of people.

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And so those people who were able to

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exercise power

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for good or for bad were able to

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find a measure

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of

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continuity

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even after their death.

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But, of course, the more people there were

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to remember your name,

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the better

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because there was a higher probability

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that people would talk about you and relate

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tales of your exploits.

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And that meant that whatever you could do

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to expand

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your tribe and your followers, you would do,

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even if that meant stealing other people's wives

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to make them your own,

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stealing other people's children to make them your

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own.

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The Quran

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talks about this when it

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it it it,

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there's a verse in the Quran that says,

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You compete in piling up things even to

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the point of visiting the graves

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so that they would even count the number

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of their dead

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as a as a sign

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of what a great person they were. I

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have not only more living, but more dead

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than you. So this idea that

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there was no limit

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on what you should do in order to

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be remembered.

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Now, where did this leave

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the person who was not memorable?

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Where did this leave

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the wanderer,

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the homeless,

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the slave,

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the one who was

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detached and

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separated from

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a great tribe.

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They were Their lives were of no value

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because they had nothing

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glorious that would live on.

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And so the message of the Quran came

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to change this.

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To say that first,

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it's not only important that you are known.

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Indeed, it's not

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important whether you are known or not known.

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What is important is what you do with

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your life,

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that you do acts of value,

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of kindness, of charity, of goodness.

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And it doesn't matter

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whether others know you or not because god

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will always know you,

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and god will always know your name.

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Next life, and

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the most,

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and the

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most

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in the most glorious company of God because

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of their pure and sincere heart.

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So this really changed

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not only how people lived,

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but how they

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understood what death meant.

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It meant that for the ordinary person,

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that death

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was not the end

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to a life

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of marginalization

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and suffering,

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but it could be

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the beginning of the true life of eternal

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life.

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And it

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meant that

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the living

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were not

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Especially the living who were

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the vulnerable and the dependent

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were not supposed to have all of their

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value subsumed

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to making sure that the great

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powerful men

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would live forever. Now,

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we know in ancient Egypt

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and in other ancient civilizations

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that slaves and servants and others were buried

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when the pharaoh died

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to serve him in the next life. Presamic

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Arabia didn't have that,

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but it required women

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to mourn

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their male dependence to such a degree

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that if they didn't demonstrate

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complete and utter devastation

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that they were considered

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to not

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have shown

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honor and respect to the dead because their

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own worth was completely dependent

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on the value of this great person.

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And it's one of the reasons, sometimes misunderstood,

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why Islam

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restricted this practice of excessive mourning.

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Because

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although it seems like a natural expression of

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emotion, in fact, we know that

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emotions are culturally

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formed

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and there are cultural expectations of emotion

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and the requirement

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or the expectation

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of having to lose everything

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when

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your male relative died

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to kind of give everything up and a

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hope for life

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meant a devaluation

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of the living.

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And so, I think this is a this

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is a universal tension in some ways.

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Those of us who have lost someone who

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we have loved,

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we

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want to honor and value them. And like

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the pre islamic

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poet would say,

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and this was a very common refrain in

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the morning poems of women. They would say,

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do

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not be distant. Do not be distanced.

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You know? And we feel that to the

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extent that we mourn and we show mourning

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and we hold on to mourning,

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we will not lose that loved one. They

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will not drift away.

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But if we turn our attention

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to life, we feel that they're gone,

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that we're losing

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them somehow.

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And we even see sometimes we hear children

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or young people who have lost, a parent

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start to feel guilty at times when they,

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after a year or 2, will say,

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I'm starting to have trouble remembering

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their face,

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you know, what they were like.

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And so I think

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the

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the tension that we face

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between turning to life and to living

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and the guilt of

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letting our loved ones start to

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be settled in the next life while we

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continue in this life is a very difficult

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one.

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And perhaps, that's one of the

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wisdoms

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of the cycle of life that

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sometimes as our loved one becomes more settled

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and distant in

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the afterlife,

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we start to become unsettled in this life.

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And perhaps by doing so, we start to

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approach

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one another.

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But it's something that is

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very difficult

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for people to manage. I Just yesterday

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was the death anniversary of my younger brother.

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And

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every year I remember him, he died in

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a tragic

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drowning accident when he was young.

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And when I called my mother and I

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said,

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I'm remembering

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my brother on this day.

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And we talked for a little while. And

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then at the end of the conversation, she

00:15:31 --> 00:15:33

said to me, thank you for remembering him.

00:15:35 --> 00:15:37

Just to remember, just to know that he

00:15:37 --> 00:15:39

is not completely gone.

00:15:43 --> 00:15:45

But although it may

00:15:46 --> 00:15:48

seem in some ways

00:15:49 --> 00:15:52

heartless, I want to say in many ways,

00:15:52 --> 00:15:53

it is more

00:15:54 --> 00:15:55

comforting

00:15:56 --> 00:15:57

to think about this.

00:16:12 --> 00:16:13

We believe that

00:16:14 --> 00:16:16

all things, all people

00:16:17 --> 00:16:17

eventually

00:16:19 --> 00:16:20

will be at one

00:16:22 --> 00:16:23

with the divine.

00:16:24 --> 00:16:24

And

00:16:25 --> 00:16:27

it is inevitable that no matter what we

00:16:27 --> 00:16:28

try to do, no matter

00:16:29 --> 00:16:31

how often we try to tell the stories,

00:16:31 --> 00:16:32

no matter

00:16:33 --> 00:16:36

how deep we inscribe the names on stone.

00:16:37 --> 00:16:38

Over time,

00:16:38 --> 00:16:39

over generations,

00:16:41 --> 00:16:41

we

00:16:42 --> 00:16:43

will fade from memory

00:16:44 --> 00:16:46

and the ones who cared about us will

00:16:46 --> 00:16:47

have joined us.

00:16:48 --> 00:16:50

But there's also comfort in that.

00:16:50 --> 00:16:52

There's also comfort that

00:16:53 --> 00:16:55

we are part of something

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