Ingrid Mattson – Halal & Tayyib Rethinking the Ethical
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Oh. I didn't wanna start this talk tearing
up, Imam Zayed, but,
It's such an honor to know you,
to to
know you for many years and to be
here at Zaytuna.
May Allah bless this
this wonderful
place of worship and education and learning and
fellowship.
Thank you so much, Imam Dawood, for inviting
me to be
part of this inaugural conference. Really, it is
very much an honor.
And I was so excited that I have
about 2 and a half hours
of a talk here, but, I've been told
it's 45 minutes. So so so I'll save
some for tomorrow. I'll just try to keep
it,
we'll we'll we'll we'll start into the topic
and, continue tomorrow.
Which of the favors
of your lord will you deny?
It's a beautiful recitation.
I'm gonna begin by by,
talking a little bit about ethics and what
we think about
as what ethics is.
And and I think what's very important for
us to understand is that ethics is not
about taking one principle
and
taking it to its logical
extreme disregarding all other principles
and goods.
In fact, that is
the very definition of extremism,
is taking
one principle
and,
neglecting all other relevant factors
and taking it to its logical extreme.
When we think about tayib, one translation
might be pure, one might be good. Very
often,
is translated as wholesome, and I love that
translation
because it has that idea of holistic
in it.
And if we're thinking about
being ethical,
we're trying to be holistic. We're trying
to take into consideration
as many factors as we as we can.
Ethics is an iterative
process
of research,
consultation,
inclusion,
capacity building,
and reprioritizing.
So it's iterative, meaning we we keep going
back
to these processes, over these processes
to continue to learn and grow and include
more relevant information and to include more and
more people
in the conversation.
Ethics
is is everywhere in the Quran. It is.
It is
promoting benefits and removing harms.
It is reviewing
and improving
policies and practices
with
with rahma,
and with aadil,
with our mind, with our
heart, our our compassion,
and with justice.
It is ensuring that
collective
obligations,
our many collective obligations
are met
by our community.
So, when I was asked to speak about
this topic, and I know that there are
many here who are who are well informed
about
the,
situation of the meat industry and the necessity
for and the,
ecological
imperative
that we face today.
And so
a number of the things I'm going to
mention are going to be familiar to you,
but
I'm trying to
to look back
and go over some of these issues
in through a process
that I think is is is part of
what we need to regularly do
in order to continue to improve.
And so at the very beginning, before we,
when we start into examining the ethics of
any
particular issue, we need, 1st and foremost, to
get the facts
right,
and we need to go to those who
have knowledge and expertise.
Now, this is a topic that I've
been interested in for many years, and,
and I've even worked in a meat factory.
But that was 35 years ago when I
was a university student, and things have certainly
changed.
But,
that experience and many others
have,
have kept this this issue this issue of
of lawful,
wholesome, ethical
eating,
alive in my in my mind and in
my life,
for decades.
But to to begin today, I thought,
although I have an interest and I research
in some of these areas, I I would
like to go to someone who I,
you know, to who's really
not only up to date, who's not only
an expert, but someone who is,
embedded in this issue and,
thinking about which areas
have have done the most
in trying
to bring,
an ethical process
and are continuing
to try to grow in in the way
that
in providing meat
that is,
realistically, most Muslims are getting their meat from
a,
the results of an industrial process.
And one of the one of the places
in the world that that's really known for
not only having very
clean pastures,
but also is constantly improving in its industrial
process is New Zealand.
In particular, a lot of our our lamb
comes from there. And as it so happens,
there's a brother in New Zealand, doctor Mustafa
Farooq,
who is a a scientist, a meat scientist.
He has a he has a PhD in
this area. He's been working in this area
for decades,
and he also has recently, in the last
year or so,
been elected as president
of the,
Islamic Federation,
the Ithanka,
Islamic
Federate Federation of Islamic no. FANS.
Not IFANCA. That that's who's sponsoring this conference.
FANS, the Federation of Islamic Associations of New
Zealand,
which is the umbrella body for Islamic organizations
in New Zealand. And interestingly,
they are the primary
halal certifier
of,
meat in New Zealand, and and meat production
is
the
a major
perhaps the major industry of New Zealand.
What's great about this, reality
is that it means that a nonprofit
organization
that represents all of the Muslims in New
Zealand
is responsible for their certification.
And so they're they have the potential
if they,
have an,
an open
dialogue and discourse and a will to improve
to constantly make this certification
process
better and,
and certainly to have higher and higher levels
of,
included in this.
And the money
that,
Fiance gets from certification
is then distributed
to
for programming for Muslims across New Zealand.
Camp youth camps in the summer
to support programs, to support refugees. So it's
it's really
a a beautiful process.
And I think because it's a small country,
it's possible.
But I decided, given this this fact, I
thought that,
the first thing I would do would be
to
call up
doctor Mustafa,
who's also also happens to be married to
a friend of mine.
And I had,
an extensive for a few hours, for 3
or 4 hours, I interviewed him,
asking him about various aspects
of his own
growth and development,
and also
the ethical issues
that he sees as critical to this process.
So here's brother Mustafa.
He,
is Nigerian,
and he moved to the United States for
graduate studies,
to pursue an MA and then a PhD
from Michigan State University
in meat processing and food science.
He told me that when he arrived in
the United States from Nigeria,
he accepted the view that many Muslims
told him
that America was a Kitabik country,
and so he could eat the meat that
was generally available in the market.
But when he began researching
in the American meat industry, he realized that
many of those who slaughtered the animals did
not even believe in God, and, of course,
the slaughtering process
was not humane.
And so he stopped eating that meat.
When he finished his PhD, he then, went
to New Zealand to help develop further develop
the halal industry.
And he says that his original idea was
to process the animals how Muslims did it
at home in Nigeria,
And his ideal was to do it the
exact same way the prophet did, in his
words, sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
This is what he thought following the sunnah
meant.
But what he saw in New Zealand was
an industry
very much concerned and increasingly concerned with animal
welfare
and eager to embrace any innovation that removed
unnecessary
hardship to animals.
And I can tell you that that is
a very different reality than what I experienced,
many decades ago at a meat factory in
Canada,
which was horrifying.
Brother Mustapha also, when he thought about what
was done back home, meaning in Nigeria, his
homeland,
recalled that while farmers and those who raised
livestock treated their animals well,
they loved them, they gave them names, they
were very tender to them.
That it was a different story after they
were brought to the market and then to
the butcher
He remembered how the large animals were treated
so roughly,
thrown down or wrestled to the ground for
slaughter.
Every day and even at Eid, he would
see animals treated roughly
and slaughtered in front of each other
at the market or at the butchers, And,
unfortunately,
this is the reality in many Muslim majority
countries.
In the factory in New Zealand, while things
weren't perfect,
he witnessed that there was greater care and
respect shown to the animal.
So he thought about this.
If
people are going to eat meat, if Muslims
are going to eat meat, he considered that,
certainly,
the ideal was for an animal to be
slaughtered on a healthy farm where it's raised.
You know, so it isn't transported. It's slaughtered
where it's raised
in a healthy way.
But 2nd best
is for the animal to be slaughtered in
a scrupulously
supervised industrial setting
that must meet high legal standards for compassionate
treatment of animals
as is the case in New Zealand,
as long as they are not required to
be transported
very far.
The least desirable situation is for an animal
to be slaughtered by
an amateur,
as sometimes happens on aid, or for an
animal to be transported to an auction or
market or a butcher,
who are not supervised or held accountable by
the law
for the way they treat the animals.
However,
while he
considered the New Zealand
setting,
industrial setting to be an improvement, there were
still
many problems.
And,
in particular,
the long transportation
that the animals had to endure to the
factory
and,
the fact that along the way,
there could be,
unnecessary suffering
inflicted on animals.
Now another aspect,
of the whole process, if we're going to
look at this holistically,
is the impact
of,
animal processing, meat processing
on the workers. And I asked,
doctor Mustafa about this,
And he said this is a major concern
of his.
First of all, most of the facilities
are remote.
So when the processing facilities are closer to
the pasture,
that means that they are further away from
the cities. And so
the Muslims who work at these,
in these factories or in these industrial settings
feel isolated
from communities that can give them support or
or services,
that could offer them support that they need.
Workers feel isolated.
And when it comes to halal slaughter,
the pious Muslims in particular
feel a great responsibility.
They worry that if everything is not done
correct correctly,
that they will commit a sin or violate
the trust of other Muslims who want to
eat halal food.
They feel that they're fulfilling the,
the collective responsibility
to ensure that the meat is halal
and they really feel a burden, a deep
burden,
of that responsibility.
3rd,
it is one thing to slaughter an animal
one has raised or occasionally once a year
on aid.
As,
it is
something quite different to witness or be involved
in the slaughter of 100
or thousands of animals a day.
The emotional and psychological
impact
of the workers
can be very heavy.
Who is supporting these workers?
And this is a responsibility
he now feels as elected head of the
Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand.
Doctor Mustafa feels frustrated
by Muslim consumers.
He says the animals
sacrifice their lives.
The workers
sacrifice
bearing the responsibility
to ensure that the process is halal
and endure the difficulty
of so many animals being sacrificed.
But as for the Muslim consumer,
where is their sacrifice?
Too many
do not know and do not even care
who is certifying their meat as halal.
All they want
is
cheap meat.
They complain about cost
and choose what is cheapest.
Doctor Mustafa says,
every consumer has the responsibility
to use their power
to change the processes,
And I emphasize
his use of the word power,
and I'll get back to that in a
little while.
When I asked doctor Mustafa how this work
has affected him,
what about his relationship to animals?
He says that he has always loved animals,
and this love has, in fact,
increased
by working with them in this industry.
He is now
more mindful of their emotions and feels spiritually
close to them.
This is both because of research,
scientific research into the emotions of animals
and his experiences with them on a daily
basis.
Now, he said he cannot even eat his
breakfast at the kitchen table if the bird
feeder outside is empty and the birds can
see him eating.
So he has to go fill up the
feeders before he can return to his breakfast.
He says, I would never again cage a
bird.
I have no problem eating meat, he said,
because the prophet sallallahu
alaihi wa sallam ate meat and he is
the best example for me.
We even know what parts of the animal
he loved to eat,
but he is deeply concerned that the way
animals are handled
must be improved.
Everything we do with animals, he said, will
be seen on.
When asked him what he thought about how
much meat we should eat, he said
meat is
too cheap,
so it's not profitable for farmers.
They need to be paid more
so they can produce less to make a
living.
And this, in turn, will lessen the environmental
impact
of meat production
Because
meat has
I'm at the wrong slide.
Let's see.
Because meat has a,
a major impact
on the environment,
So it should be eaten occasionally,
not daily.
So much meat is wasted
because western consumers in particular
only want the prime cuts, the lean cuts.
Much of the animal is wasted.
We need to eat the whole animal, he
said. The organs, the tongue, the brains, all
of these,
in fact, are richer sources of iron and
b twelve,
essential fatty acids and amino acids
than the lean meat producers.
Need,
producers are,
are offering to consumers because of consumer demand.
There needs to be education
about the waste
and about
the importance
and possibility
and health of eating these
all of the parts of the animal.
To throw out so much of the animal,
some in some places, 30%
of the animal
is
is really disrespecting the animal's life.
It is a waste of the resources
consumed by the animal.
It is a waste of resources used to
transport
the animal
and to process it.
And so
he emphasizes
that a flexitarian
diet is the best diet.
Eat meat occasionally,
eat all of the animal,
really enjoy it,
and work to make sufficient meat products
available to the large part of humanity who
do not have sufficient access,
and this is where
justice
is brought in.
So what ethical sources and principles are engaged
in doctor Mustafa's
analysis and recommendations?
1st,
we need to suppress
pride and ego,
to be open to correction,
to admit past mistakes,
and seek what is best.
Muslims
over the past few decades have learned more
and more
about
what is good and better in this area.
So
we need to be
open to that correction.
We can admit our past mistakes, and we
shouldn't shame others
who don't have this information yet.
We made mistakes in the past, and and
others
still don't have access to all the information
we have.
So treat our brothers and sisters who need
to be need more information,
with compassion.
2nd,
trust in,
trust in and love the prophet Muhammad
and his way of life.
If you were doing something
following
believing that you're following the his sunnah,
his blessed sunnah,
really,
you
know, be aware of that blessing.
3rd,
constantly
research
and improve methods,
seeking ihsan
in animal slaughter.
That is our ideal.
We're not reaching perfection, but we should continue
to try.
Embrace science and technology where it is beneficial
without losing our Islamic world view. And here,
I'm sure we'll have lots of discussion over
the weekend about what kind of technologies are
beneficial or not, or if it's enough
for us.
Traditional Muslims, Muslims,
you know, pre modern Muslims developed beneficial agricultural
science and technology
and were faithful to their Islamic
worldview.
They
supported sustainable
and productive farming by bringing these two things
together.
We cannot afford a an incorrect romanticized
view
that the best farming
or the best,
raising of livestock
does not use
beneficial technologies.
And here, I just,
nope. Wrong one.
Whoop. There we go.
Grafting the tree, and we we all are
aware of the,
the,
report about the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa
sallam when he was in Medina and saw
the cultivators grafting the trees.
So very often, there's a visceral
kind of reaction when we see something new.
But on the balance,
we need
to to honestly and rationally and scientifically,
see what is beneficial and what is not
and understand how we bring our religious values,
to bear.
What has been called
the Muslim agricultural
revolution,
which,
happened by the by the 2nd century Hejdui
or the 9th century
of the common era, really all across the
Mediterranean where where the
Muslim jurisdiction,
had now extended,
was the result of the enthusiastic
embrace of any and all beneficial techniques and
pest control, soil rehabilitation,
the extension intensive and intensification
of irrigation,
scrupulously
careful ecological
techniques,
hard work, patience,
experimentation,
and ingenuity,
as well as the enforcement of just and
effective
trade,
finance,
currency,
economic laws,
and policies in accordance with Islamic laws and
principles,
as well as policies pertaining to land.
So the vast majority
of,
farmers were successful
because they had the right to use the
land in a beneficial way.
Land was not commodified
in the same way
that happened in the 19th century to the
great detriment
of agriculture,
of laborers,
of the relationship with animals and that's something
maybe we could talk about tomorrow more when
we talk about sustainability.
So,
having
having laws and regulations
and governance
that
supports,
the fair and just treatment of animals, the
fair and just treatments of farmers and laborers,
that is,
very thoughtful in
being attentive to the climate and changes in
the climate
and
prepares a society
for disaster
is certainly
an Islamic
principle. And we have this from,
of course,
Surat Youssef, Sayidna Youssef.
May Allah be pleased with him, perform that
rule for the Egyptians,
preventing
widespread,
hunger when a drought
or pestilence
occurred.
Another principle
that of course is very important is that
we treat and recognize
animals as honored creations of a law worthy
not only of our compassion,
but even our love.
And also that we treat the workers in
animal processing not as instruments
that employers and consumers use
for their own ends of profit and consumption,
but as human beings ennobled by God,
people whose emotional,
social, and spiritual states
need to be considered by employers
and by the consumers
who benefit from their work.
We emphasize that Muslim consumers are morally accountable
for whether they neglect
or use their influence,
their power
to improve the treatment of the animals they
consume.
We need to pay attention of how much
meat is wasted,
and this is unnecessary
and unethical.
And when it comes to food, it is
not only
meat that is wasted.
Doctor Tamara Soma, who is a, professor in
Vancouver
and an expert in, environmental studies and planning,
developed a,
a special organization
called Food Systems Lab in which she
looks at
food wastage.
And the amount of food that is wasted
is tremendous in our society. So all of
this effort
goes into so if we put aside meat
for the for for right now and look
at,
plants and other,
you know,
fruit, vegetables,
grains.
In many cases,
western consumers,
American consumers
waste,
up to
30%
or more
after buying it and bringing it home.
And this is,
you know,
the the amount of energy that has gone
into producing that,
the amount of
pollution that has generated
bringing,
that food to to a person's home,
And what that does for those who have
little food
is
really a disaster, and this is the the
easiest thing that we can do.
It is
what's really important to recognize
is that it's not enough just to put
the food in the composter
because
composting,
material,
food material
creates
methane,
which is a greenhouse gas
20 times more dangerous than carbon dioxide. So
even when we throw it into the composter,
we are contributing
to these huge levels of methane,
and
this is a major factor in climate change.
Climate change
that is a disaster
for many people across the world, those who
who both raise livestock
and cultivate
plants and grains and other things because,
their sources of water are just drying up.
The Quran, of course,
in the Quran, of course, emphatically
prohibits waste,
in particular, in the context of food production
and consumption.
Allah
says, oh, you who believe, do not make
unlawful the wholesome things,
which god has made lawful for you, but
commit no excess
for Allah does not love those
who are given to excess.
Yeah, Benny Adam. Oh, children of Adam, wear
your beautiful apparel at every time in place
of prayer and eat and drink, but do
not waste.
Allah does not love the wasteful.
Eat of the wholesome things we have provided
for your subs sustenance,
but commit no excess therein,
lest my condemnation
fall upon you.
And this is just a sample
of the prohibitions
versus prohibiting waste.
When it comes to food production, waste is
not wrong
is is wrong not only because we are
ungrateful
in doing so,
but because of
food production generates
methane and carbon.
More animals and more people are going hungry
or dying because climate events are killing their
livestock and plants.
And climate events make cultivation more expensive,
so more and more people in our own
communities
cannot afford wholesome food.
It's not that they're ignorant,
it's that they can't afford it,
and we know that the blessed prophet sallallahu
alaihi wasallam said, none of you is a
believer who goes to bed
with a full stomach. Well, his neighbor is
hungry.
And just for your own neighborhood,
you can see from this graph from Feeding
America
that there are over 200,000
people in this county,
who are food insecure.
In the world, of course,
vast numbers of people.
820,000,000
people
who are food insecure.
And this number has been rising over the
past number of years,
primarily due to climate change.
And the, impacts are tremendous.
There are 2 different ways
that
inadequate
food access or,
lacking access to wholesome foods
can lead to different forms of malnutrition.
Of course, we would expect child stunting and
wasting where people
just shrink,
but also,
they can also become overweight and obese. So
this is the second pathway. So, ironically,
obesity
is the result
also of
malnutrition,
of not being nourished by wholesome food.
Resilience
to prepare for, these climate disasters is something
that is,
being emphasized more and more because the reality
is that climate change is here, and this
is impacting
people
all the time.
And many of those peoples are Muslims, not
that we should prefer them over others, but
certainly,
if we are going to,
feel that we're part of one community with
Muslims across the world,
this is
this is a very serious issue from a
spiritual
and ethical
perspective.
I think about
Saytan Umar
ibn Al Khattab, may Allah be pleased with
him, during the year of ashes, Umar Ramada,
the year
18, Hijri.
When there was a terrible drought in the
Arabian Peninsula
and the water holes dried up, and so,
of course, the camels that the
Bedouin depended on
began to die,
and climate refugees
flooded into Medina.
Said Naomir,
as the haditha,
swore an oath
that he would not eat butter,
milk, or meat until the drought ended
and the plants had sprouted.
Saydna Omer sought supplies from his governors in
Egypt and Syria and elsewhere to be able
to feed the refugees in Medina,
and he said,
if it had not arrived, if that help
had not arrived,
he would not have left any home of
the prominent Muslims Muslims in which there was
one container of grain
without lodging a hungry refugee with them
because he said,
2 will not die from the amount of
food that can support 1.
And he said that the Muslims
will not be destroyed if there is equality
among their stomachs.
Do we feel that? Do we have that
that feeling?
Do we have that concern? Do we have
that awareness?
Can we feel
that pain?
I think I'm in I'm getting near the
time to end, so just a few more
points.
The production of too much carbon and methane
to bring us food from across the world
is not only the result
of injustice
in our
political,
social, economic systems.
It is also, if we're honest,
to some extent, the result of our ingratitude.
We do not really appreciate what we have.
How much
food do we have? How much diversity?
How much access
to
so many different kinds of food do we
have, yet
we get tired of eating the same thing?
Seeking more and more variety, never being satisfied
with the goods
that we have.
I fear that we've become like Banu Israel
in the desert.
When Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala first liberated them
from slavery
and then sent down
manna and quails and
all of this delicious food to eat.
And
then
Allah
opened up many
springs of water
for them to drink from.
And still
they said and
this is the
in the desert in us. Of course, we
are,
Sometimes in that state, may
may Allah
make us aware of that and
free us from that state and forgive us
for such words as I'm bored of this
food.
What did they said? They said,
We can't bear just one kind of food.
Pray to thy Lord that he would give
us
other things that grow from the earth,
herbs and cucumber and garlic and lentils and
onions.
Seyda Musa was so exasperated
by this point
to be
to feel tired that it's not enough.
So to end,
I would like to supplement doctor Mustafa's analysis
and invoke the concept of HISPA,
whose neglect
in our lives, I think is the reason
that we do not
always see our values and principles operating in
our systems, our Muslim systems and institutions.
As one scholar said, those who have power
are more able than others and so come
under
obligations which others do not bear.
For the measure of obligation is ability
and every person is responsible
to the extent of his or her ability.
Fear Allah as much as you are able.
In pre modern Islam, the enforcement of right
and wrong,
the prevention of harm and the promotion of
benefits
and the public interest
was not located
only or even primarily in the courts,
rather,
administrative measures were taken in accordance with the
law. This is what is.
The markets were regulated through HIPAA,
and this included inspecting
working animals to make sure they were not
abused
and protecting wild and free urban animals, such
as cats and dogs,
to ensure that they had access to the
food and water they needed
and were not harassed.
Ethical principles and practice were also in forced
by guilds.
Local customs,
promoted the public interest, harmony, and fairness.
All of these were principles
that were part of Al Adat Muhakima.
We cannot limit ourselves
to virtue ethics when we have power.
We need to use
power
to prevent harm and promote benefits.
What is striking,
and I've placed myself in this category, is
how much time we, as a Muslim community,
bemoan injustices.
We have little little, if any, power to
correct,
and we divide ourselves into factions
having bitter feuds over these issues.
Yet, when it comes to livestock,
meat processing,
agricultural
regulations and processes,
and even managing the food in our
in our own communities and households or
offering a meal,
in our Muslim institutions
that
we tend to
neglect,
really looking holistically
at these issues.
All food involves all major issues of justice
and injustice,
harms and benefits to humans in our neighborhood
and all over the world,
animals in the environment.
We have the ability to make an impact,
yet our involvement
is mostly limited to personal virtue.
And this is why it is tremendous
and just a such a
such a wonderful,
really
hopeful development
that this Center
for Ethical Living, it has been established here
at Zetuna.
We need to focus on this and we
can focus on this. This is something
we can do something about
in a more sustained
and collective manner.
You know,
doctor Saeed Hussain Nasr,
may Allah bless him,
in 19
66,
gave a series of lectures at the University
of Chicago entitled
Man and Nature,
the Spiritual Crisis in Modern Man.
Doctor Nasrat has not expound stopped expounding
on this theme
since then, over 50 years ago.
And we've had other scholars. There's a beautiful,
volume
published in 2003
called, Islam and Ecology, A Bestowed Trust,
with articles by doctor Nasser,
Professor Ibrahim Oostemir,
Noelle Amar,
and Earthman Llewellyn,
among others. That's
what are we? 2019?
16 years ago.
We have been told about this.
We
have been aware.
We've had scholars talking about these issues,
yet
our
collective will
to use
our influence and power is still quite limited.
But things can change.
We only have to look at the poultry
industry, which frankly is a nightmare.
It's not only how the animals are slaughtered
and
and how they're treated,
but the culling process
for male chicks in industrialized
egg production facilities.
Since males do not lay eggs, they're killed
once they hatch.
In the United States,
male chicks are macerated.
This means they are ground alive.
American egg producers
have now said that by next year, by
2020,
they will have,
perfected the technology to be able to determine
the * before hatching.
And so
they'll be,
able to cull the eggs instead of the
chicks.
In Canada, the Canadian government gave almost $1,000,000
to help
the egg industry,
transition to this practice.
This shows that political action can be directed
successfully towards the welfare of animals
because this is the only reason this change
has been made. Because of the outrage of
consumers
and of human beings who could not
see this,
happening and because of the courage of activists
who snuck into these facilities
and,
and recorded this process.
So we can do something.
Let's and I just go back to what
doctor Mustafa said.
The animals are sacrificing.
The workers
who are doing the slaughtering and butchering are
sacrificing.
What are we sacrificing?
It's time for us
to give some attention.
And
when we do this, it's not only that
we'll do the right thing,
but when we improve these processes, and it
will take time and there are many levels
of it,
we will start to be able to
bring animals
back into our life.
So, it's not just about,
you know, about staying away from it,
But it is possible
that if we
if we create these processes
and develop
them in a way that is truly humane
and beneficial,
then we will have this blessing
of being in closer
community
with
the this community of created beings. Because, yes,
we belong to
the community of Muslims and we belong to
the
Ahlul Kitab and we belong to Bano Adam,
the community of humanity, brothers and sisters in
humanity.
We also belong to the community
of of living things, things that have life.
And,
it
is possible for us to be in
closer contact
through awareness,
through
activism, through engagement
in a in a way that's beneficial for
us and them and for those
other,
human beings
who are having a very difficult time because
of our consumption,
processes
our practices.
So I'll end with this even though I've
got about 15 more pages,
but we'll leave that for tomorrow. I look
forward tomorrow to a
a really great discussion and maybe, hopefully, some
vigorous debates so that we can push forward
and advance forward.
Allow us all to to learn and to
grow and have open hearts.
I am grateful to be here with you
and I, ask
to send his peace and blessings upon
upon our,
our master Muhammad.
I guess they want that. There's no one
to say.
So we're gonna have a a a brief
q and a with, doctor.
So if anyone has any questions, please come
up to this microphone
right here.
Assalamu alaikum.
You mentioned the that there was a concept,
called Hespa.
And I was wondering if you could expound
on it. What is it? And, like,
sort of maybe ex explicate upon that. Right.
So
so Hespa is the is the,
regulation
of the public sphere, in particular,
the marketplace.
And so the Murtseb
would be the one who would make sure
that
when people were
selling things that they weren't committing fraud,
that if they were selling food, that the
food was
not spoiled and it was wholesome or they
they they didn't,
you know,
deceive the consumer.
The Mortecep also was required to,
was responsible
for ensuring,
fair what we we might call fair labor
practices,
so that if someone was being,
overworked or mistreated,
that they would,
would then be able to intervene. And they
could they could, you know, take these cases
to court,
to the judge,
or they could be fined or they could
be ordered to shut down their shop.
And also for the for the animals, the
pack animals, if animals were working
to make sure that they were
being fed, watered, not overworked.
And so the the I mean, I talk
about Motesib as one person, but really it's
this it's this
the,
the power of.
The power comes from being able,
you know,
having the power of the state behind them.
Now,
I'm not saying that this is always about
the power of the state.
We we can have
a different kind of power through,
the organizations that we can we all have
actually
make things happen or or shut things down
in in the organizations that we control. That's
what board boards of directors do. Right?
But we also have this there's shareholder activism.
There's also,
the power of
of consumers when they work together.
So,
you know, that's not
exactly the same as HIPAA, but, really, what
I'm looking for is
is examining,
processes and structures,
how,
people,
animals,
and others are being treated and nature itself,
you know, the waterways.
So, you know, if someone say,
was throwing some noxious substance that was that
was,
polluting the water, the common water system, for
example,
All of these things need to be addressed
not just by telling people behave better, don't
you know this is wrong, but actually
you need to stop people.
And so we do have,
where that power,
is available to us, where that influence
is available to us,
we need to take it on because the
reality is that there are many people who
have no influence,
who have no ability
to to
put pressure and change things. We have we
have a lot in this area.
May
Allah, you know,
protect that for us.
Thank you so much for that sister and
doctor. So I have 2 questions. So one
of them is, I listened to what you
said, and
the thing that just kept coming to my
head was, BDS.
So
the reason,
it's because
of what you mentioned trade.
To what extent, like,
their
their
our own money goes to
companies that ultimately will oppress Muslims in this
country and outside of this country. And we
actually contribute to that with this this form
of trade. So you're
I want to ask your opinion on that.
The second goes to the issue of, I
know, like, in Italy,
and other places
in United States, they have vineyards and all
these guys get together and they say, okay.
We will have the stamp. This is certified
to come from a certain region. Mhmm.
Here, we don't have,
things of that sort, but we certainly have
examples of, like, restaurants and things of that
sort
that
buy from
splendid producers.
If you take a look at those producers,
particularly the meat producers,
they are
they treat their animals ethically.
Mhmm. And even when restaurants buy from them,
they
pay premium prices. And the best of them
actually is Halal
certified in this area. He only produces a
land that's, Halal certified, but it's
it almost begs the question, why can't we
do it by forming our own associations producing
even things like hummus, for example? So those
are my questions. Thank you.
Yeah. I mean, there there is so the
second question first,
it's always possible
to
create a
a certification
authority for all sorts of things.
And it doesn't have to be comprehensive,
but it can
it can,
set
that that,
you know, the very existence of the standard
is a source of information
and a challenge to do better.
And that's, you know,
food we eat. That's the way our mosques
run. That's I mean, there are all sorts
of,
benefits of having standards.
Standards and and,
you know, certifi
having standards and then certifying
is also beneficial because it creates a sector
that,
that then
can can you need more than one person
or one company.
You need you need to create a sector
that
then,
by its existence
allows for,
more awareness,
and also
then those
producers
can,
themselves
put some pressure
through,
for on regulation.
So
I'm, you know, I believe that we
we should really look at many areas of
our lives. I mean,
my basic ethical principle is that
we should never
empower someone
or an institution unless we're capable of providing
supervision
over that and correcting it. You know, we
we shouldn't just sort of
say, okay, you're the one and go do
something and then set them free and we
can never go back to it. So certification
is is an important issue.
When it comes to BDS, BDS is, I
mean, at least in in some ways,
could be a specific instance of,
what we would call more generally
supply chain ethics.
Right?
So supply chain ethics, it's
you buy chocolate or coffee, and it says
fair trade certified,
rainforest
certified,
your tuna, dolphin
certified,
etcetera.
So
the idea,
of looking at the supply chain and at
each stage,
how is
what is the impact
on
people,
on workers,
on a community,
on the environment,
on
animals, you know, whatever
whatever it is all the way along.
And supply the the the,
supply chain ethics again is
is something
that,
that has become, you know, very popular
in many different areas.
Even Apple computer has it.
Yeah.
I guess the
it has it has
benefits,
and I think it has
it has
actual benefits
and then it has
a symbolic or educational
benefit
in
in,
making people
aware of the issue and keeping the issue
in front of people's minds so that they
might then do more.
Because consumer activism
is
yeah. It is
limited,
in its impact.
It is better than nothing.
So supply chain ethics
is is certainly better than nothing, and it's
a great start.
But it is,
it still is not,
you know, there's still much more that needs
to be done when we talk about nation
states. But we might not have that,
You know, we may not be able to
influence
or change the
foreign laws of the land or,
you know, federal regulations about many things.
So
at least paying attention to these supply chain
ethics
is important,
is is beneficial
as long as we also do not
well,
I mean,
BDS really it it it's kind of falls
into this and kind of doesn't, but
we also have to make sure that we're
being careful about consumption in general.
I mean,
if I fill my house with all rainforest
certified,
you know, ethical foods and I have so
I have so much
that I end up wasting some or throwing
it away or I'm I'm spending so much
time just thinking about food all the time
or consumer goods, you know, I think, okay,
I'm gonna buy this,
look for spending a lot of time looking
for this thing and this thing and this
thing, I also have to start to think
about how I'm spending my time. I mean,
overall,
am I becoming too much of
a aficionado
of
food or certain kinds of goods or or
whatever it is and really need to spend,
spend less time just consuming things and and
more time doing other things.
Thank you,
very much for this beautiful, thoughtful,
discourse.
And I was very much struck by your
ending with the concept of the Hesba, the
institution of the Muartasib.
So I'd like to come back to that
again.
Some of the jurists,
have held that the Mahtasib
has to be more
a greater
has to have more knowledge than than the
Qadi does. Because he
he or she has
so many responsibilities
in so many fields.
And
this has been
devolved now
into
secular experts in the modern world with all
the different fields, including my own of environmental
or wildlife protection and environmental protection and that
the various things.
But I've often wondered,
would it be
possible to revive
the Hespa system and how one might go
about that? I'd like to ask you,
what do you think about that? And maybe
it's not just a question for
for tonight, but for tomorrow as well for
for further discussion.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
I mean, certainly
certainly
certainly people responsible
people can do a good
job from a, you know, a secular perspective
if they're given
they're given regulations and they enforce
regulations.
But
when someone is,
you know, it's a different I mean, this
is the difference between
between an interpreted law and a living law
and a and a
a
a canonical law.
Everything is not going to be in the
regulations.
You know?
Everything's not going to be written down.
That
if you
if you don't internalize and embody
the spirit
behind those, like, why are we doing these
things? We're not doing these things just because
it's it's the law,
but because
we really care.
We believe
and we we honor Allah's creation.
We value
we we believe that these creatures have dignity,
and
we also
feel a spiritual kinship with them.
So there's a whole another level that I
think is not only
that that on the one hand will allow
us to see more and do more, not
just the the laws,
but
to be able to shape the environment
and and look at things not
you know, one of the problems with
adjudication
or just enforcing regulations
is that
it often leaves people resentful.
No one wants to pay a fine.
No one wants
someone yelling at them or closing down their
shop. Right?
Ideally, the is
trying to
trying to also
get those people they correct to,
to have a change of heart
so that they also
can see,
what's behind the law. And so they change
they they are able to
embrace a different perspective in what they're doing.
SubhanAllah,
I mean, even Islamic courts historically,
judges
did did their best
to
develop processes that allowed people to start to
value their own relationships when they were in
conflict so that the judge didn't have to
have to just pick a winner or a
loser.
And and the Muartassib is
is part of that system, that system of
trying to
to really
transform people and get them to
to value their relationships,
relationships
modern nation state. I don't know how it
were how that works in a
modern nation state,
but
I don't know. Maybe in our own
you know, maybe there are some settings where
we can at least
try to
try to shape relationships
and attitudes and and and nudge norms,
with the same spirit.
That's a big question.
We could take a final question from online.
So Hatem from Facebook asks,
how can we evaluate
what is halal?
Because it seems to have become just a
marketing tag.
Can you say it again? I can't hear
it very well. Yes. How can we,
as average consumers, basically,
evaluate
what is halal?
Because it seems to have become
simply a marketing tag.
Oh, I see. Okay.
So clearly these when we when we talk
about,
about seeking to,
to consume and live in an ethical and
wholesome way,
that this is not an,
a personal
obligation. This is a collective obligation. This is,
this is as a community,
we need to develop the processes and structures,
to help us
be able to fulfill these responsibilities.
And that's why we have
certifying agencies. That's why we have scientists. Scientists.
That's why we have experts.
But we can't be passive
and just
and just, you know, looking at a label
and and we see those five letters halal
and and think that that's good enough.
We do need to,
do some, you know,
undertake some due diligence
in
at least
being aware of who are the certifiers,
who,
what are their standards,
and find trustworthy people. You know, whether this
has to do with learning our our religion.
I mean, how do you how do you
find a teacher?
How do you find a mentor? How do
you we
we we don't just take the 1st person
who walks in the door who's we see
an advertisement. We we have to talk to
people. We do a little bit of
research. We and find out who are the
trust worthy
organizations, who are the trustworthy people.
And if we're very interested, maybe we can
begin to learn more and more and even,
enter this field in some way.
But we certainly have,
some responsibility
as as with all aspects of our religion
of not being just passive
and,
you know, checking a box in a superficial
way,
and thinking that that's enough.
And that's why something like this center and
and no one asked me to be promoting
this center, but, honestly, it's it's the reality
that this is why you need centers
like this
to be able to review and evaluate
and
suggest
and,
support the development of more and more
expertise
and and trustworthy,
avenues
for,
for supporting our desire
to engage in an ethical way of life.
Trauma.
So,
one final question from Tanya.
Few times. If you could just define that
for us or or tell us what you
mean by wholesome. Mhmm.
So I'm using I'm
I'm,
it's one of one of my preferred translations
of.
And and as I said,
coming from the word whole that we're looking
at something holistically, so we're not just
looking at one one principle. For example,
you know, one thing is done right, and
then
while while we elevate
one aspect,
everything else is is disastrous,
for example.
So wholesome,
we're we're we're looking at the,
the effect
of this
product or process or consumption,
on
on the things around it, on the people,
on the animals, on the
environment.
We're looking at when we look at,
at production processes, it cannot only be that
this is a this is a beautiful product
if the workers,
who make it are treated with disrespect
or denied their rights, are overworked,
are underpaid.
That is not a wholesome product.
So,
it it it's about it's about taking a
bigger picture. It's about
finding
what's coming in, what's going out and it's
very much, an embodied process.
It's not just about ideas.
It's about,
looking in actuality
at the effects, and this is something that
we should be,
you know, it it is it is certainly
core to our religion
that our worship, for example,
purification
is about what our body touches,
You know? The is the water
pure?
What about the land that I'm I'm praying
on? So
so it it it's thinking, what am I
what am I taking in? What am I
touching? What am I bringing in?
And how did it get to me, this
kind of supply chain?
And what happens afterwards.
So it's not only what I take in,
but what happens afterwards
is this thing wrapped in, like, tons of
plastic. And now I'm now I you know,
this beautiful for example, I've seen
oh, maybe I shouldn't say this because maybe
someone has a business with this or something.
But I've seen, for example,
sometimes,
lately,
misswax
that are packaged in about 5 layers of
packaging when it's a misswack that you could
just, like, throw in a box.
It it's it's wrapped in plastic, then in
a special case, a box, and that box
is in another box, and that's put in
a bag.
I mean
and then where does all that stuff go?
What happens to all all of that garbage?
Right? So so wholesome is is
is
what comes in and what comes out and
in a very embodied way,
in a material way.
What are the what are the effects and
impacts?