Hamzah Wald Maqbul – The Struggle To Know Islam And Black Life In Cleveland Episode 001
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Assalamu
alaikum.
Welcome to
the struggle to know where we will be
talking about some of the details regarding the
African American community.
At least today, we'll be talking about some
of the issues with the African American community,
here in the city of Cleveland and,
our dear Muslim community
and, our response to those issues. So,
my name is Tristan,
and this is my hometown. I grew up
here in the city of Cleveland, and I
think that this is a very
important conversation that needs to happen.
And I like
to have you have you 2 introduce yourself.
This is Musa Sukupang speaking
and may Allah to Allah help us all,
be a part of a conversation that will
be productive
that will help us,
affect changes
in our communities, in our own lives.
And these are conversations we're hoping to have
that have been needing to be to be
had.
Sometimes common sense isn't so common anymore, unfortunately,
which is why we're calling this the struggle
to know, because knowing isn't always that easy.
And sometimes we have to get a little
uncomfortable
in order to know what we need to
know. And may we have those conversations and
it may may may be a source of
positivity Insha Allah.
Yeah. My name is, Hamza Makbul. I currently
serve as the imam in the Islamic Center
of Cleveland.
I grew up on the West Coast, much
like Sheikh Musa. So we're kinda transplants over
here,
for the cause of Islam. And so that's
what we, you know, what we think about
when we wake up in the morning and
when we go to sleep at night. How
we can, serve, the Deen of Allah Ta'ala
and the people of the Ummah of the
Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. And I've kinda echo
some of the sentiments Sheikh Musa has. There's
some really hard conversations that need to be
had. And if you think that they're hard
to have in this world,
if we don't rectify some of these things,
they're gonna be much harder to have in
the hereafter.
And so I think we should just jump
right into it. Absolutely.
And to kinda kick things off, I'd just
like
to thank, the Cleveland Public Library, in regards
to equipment,
that we are using to record this podcast.
Sure.
And it also happens to be the place
where I'm employed. So,
we thank them for their contributions to this.
So
let's get started with, the very first topic
on this. Wanna thank Yeah. Tristan for
being the motivation behind this. A 100%.
Again, I've been in the community here in
Cleveland, Greater Cleveland for almost 9 years now
and I've known you since I've moved here.
Yeah. You're one of the first people I
met Masha'Allah
and,
you know, you've you've always
brought these type of things up
and there's just never been
a way forward at least from my own
self of how to like address these things.
Sheikh Hamza being in the community now make
made that a little bit easier.
And also the connections we've been able to
develop.
Leadership
brothers
in the community.
I think there is a much more clearer
path, a much clearer path to move forward.
I've already been picking the minds of a
few brothers
who are directly involved in these type of
issues and we have a lot of leadership
in our communities, especially on the east side
that we're going to be tapping into and
involving.
So I wanna thank you for that, Masha'Allah,
also. And may Allah reward you and bless
you and and inshallah make it a source
of Khair. I mean, I mean,
alhamdulillah. And so we we have a list
of things that we'd like to talk about.
And, Jizakal, okay, thank you for that and
Of course. Way,
for both of you and everyone that's listening.
But the first thing on that list, I
believe, is gonna be one that
may bring some smiles and maybe maybe not
for some folks. But, talking about the subject
of
intoxicants
of all kinds being sold,
and predominantly gonna bring a smile to anyone.
Anyway, please continue.
Intoxicants being sold in predominantly,
black neighborhoods or,
maybe not even necessarily just black neighborhoods as
well, sadly, but, I mean, all over the
city of Cleveland, predominantly sold by Muslims.
And so this is a topic that,
has come up in many, many circles, and
so.
Yeah. Do we have, like, some statistical data
to say predominantly by Muslims, or is it
just that there's a high prevalence of it?
Well, I would say predominantly
black neighborhoods or maybe just in general.
The reason why I say that is because
the city of Cleveland itself is predominantly black.
Mhmm. And in many neighborhoods,
there are intoxicants being sold. And sadly, a
lot of them, not all of them, are
Muslim owned Yeah. Including gas stations, corner stores,
and things like that. Right.
Yeah. I mean, so just to to chime
in first of all, because look as Muslims,
and I know there's this kind of new
movement nowadays to have
Islam be like a quasi race. And so
being quote unquote Islamophobic is like a type
of racism, racism, but we're not a race.
Right. Anyone who thinks we're a race can
look at the video of this podcast Right.
And see that we are like the human
race, but we're not,
we're not, like, you know, genetically or, race,
but we're not, we're not, like, you know,
genetically or,
you know,
phenotypically,
homogeneous
Right. Right. To
be precise.
However, what defines us is a commitment to
the book of Allah and the sunnah of
the prophet, sallallahu alaihi wasallam,
despite what people may want to co opt
with, like, foundation money,
and turn Islam into something else, a culture
or a race or whatever that it's not.
First of all, drinking is haram. I think
every I mean, everybody agrees that that drinking
and intoxicants,
are are haram.
The book of Allah Ta'ala, you know, describes
it as as rich, as filth, and as
the work of Shaitan,
as the as the the bidding of Satan.
And,
the, Nabi
is very clear about,
about the sin of
buying it, selling it, transporting it,
witnessing the transactions, etcetera, that they're all equal.
Now there may be some
discussions that are more subtle and nuanced than
this, but this is a general understanding that
we all have is that it's not a
good thing. It's a very bad thing. If
a person doesn't think that it's a bad
thing, that person is deluding themselves and fooling
themselves.
I think the issue of Muslims who should
have come here
with the message of
1 God and the message of justice and
brotherhood and peace and fairness and, like, lifting
one another up.
The fact that they're coming with something that
is harmful makes what's already a bad situation
even worse, is the fact that you have
another group of oppressed people in this
country,
is the fact that you have another group
of oppressed people in this country, the African
American community who has been, you know, systemically,
denied equal access
to all the facilities that are needed in
order to live a proper life in this
country. Mhmm.
That we have Muslims that have gone and
prayed in those neighborhoods on,
on those people,
on those,
you know, on those
neighborhoods,
on those circumstances
in order to take money out of people
who are already economically depressed
and facilitate vices that are already harm them
in a way that they're already being harmed
even more. And that we're gonna enrich ourselves
over the pain and suffering of another person,
which is completely antithetical to the to the
message of the dean. I think we have
to frame the issue first because there are
a lot of people who I'm I myself
am surprised especially in the
the the
uproar of,
of of justified anger that that that has
been being shown, you know, since George Floyd's,
just like * murder.
That I I myself been surprised at the
spirit of defense that many
actually respectable,
otherwise respectable members of our Muslim community have
given for these liquor stores, convenience stores, gas
stations that sell alcohol, etcetera, etcetera. And so
I just wanted to frame the the issue.
Right.
I would agree. I mean, because
if the issue is is racism
and more specifically systemic
racism then that goes beyond just police brutality
and the indiscriminate killing or in proportionate
killing of of of black men by police.
And we have And imprisonment. And in prison.
Right. And mass incarceration all of these different
issues. So,
we have to look at what is within
our reach as a community as a Muslim
community
and what we can impact
more immediately.
With media and the attention that it's getting
but as Muslims,
it's not limited to that and we have
to look at what we can do.
Some people may use the you know
the the excuse that maybe it's permissible
right to sell because it's to non muslims
right
But even if we were to, like,
defer in that regard and acknowledge and just
accept, let's say that is the case, which
it isn't,
Being being the rule isn't always what you're
supposed to do or what's allowed. The law
is there to identify what you can and
cannot do as a limit. Doesn't mean you
should or shouldn't do that. Mhmm. Right? You
always give the example of like,
a man praying while at his shirt. Right?
You can show up to the masjid or
salat will be valid if you if a
man were to pray without his shirt. Mhmm.
Right? As long as he was covered from
the navel to the knees. Mhmm. That doesn't
mean you should show up at the masjid
for Isha
just because you just did had a chest
workout at the at the gym and you're
feeling a little confident about yourself. Now you're
gonna go pray at the masjid without your
shirt. Right. It's valid. No one's gonna, like,
say your prayer is invalid, but that's not
what you should be doing. Mhmm. Right?
So as Muslims, even if we were to
like,
acknowledge the fact like okay fine. There's some
scope to do it. It's not what we
should be doing by any means. We have
uh-uh ethical and moral responsibilities
as a as a community
and we are expected to maintain that. I
mean, I I would push back against,
against even the hypothetical.
I don't think it's permissible
And,
you know no. Look. There's a couple of
issues. Right? And I don't know how how
much this is gonna be like
a a discussion,
versus,
a discussion of what's going on in our
societies. But even the the technical,
discussion of this being Daryl Harb, If it
was Darro Harb, then, you know, keeping permanent
residents here becomes unlawful.
If this is Darro Harb, then, you know,
let the liquor store owners all publicly declare
that and,
you know, say that this is our intention
over here. And if this is
Daro Harb, let them not then, you know,
claim that we're trying to be like American
citizens and fit in and this and that
and the other thing. Let them be open
about their their malevolent intent toward the people
because that's exactly what it is. Right? This
whole idea of like, oh, it's non Muslim,
I'm gonna sell to it. Since when does
Islam preach that that, you know, it's okay
to be,
be a jerk to a non Muslim Right.
Because they're not a Muslim.
The whole idea even about the fatwa of
the arharb is that it should be done.
It should be done,
you know, with,
full disclosure
that, you know, permissible impermissible transaction within the
Muslim lands when conducted between a Muslim and
a non Muslim should be done,
with full disclosure, without dishonesty. So for example,
like, to sell a bag of feces.
It's not permissible in our Sharia to null
transaction. If someone said, well, he took my
feces and he paid for it. Right? The
judge will not impose a fee because feces
have no value.
Right? Whereas that transaction would be permissible between
a a Muslim and a non Muslim outside
of the Muslim lands because the judge doesn't
have any jurisdiction over there. Right?
And so that's the that's the the analogy
of that's the analogy of of selling alcohol.
That these are things that don't have any
value in our Sharia because they actually are
not of benefit to a human being. And
so,
you know, there's a difference between between making
analogy on this, like, legal precept
and, like, actually going into,
you know, someone's neighborhood and opening up like
a feces depot. Right? Oh, wow. That's that's
problematic,
you know. And,
you know,
when it's taught in in in classroom settings,
is a very abstract exercise. Why? Because the
idea of ancient peoples including Muslims and people
of wisdom traditions is that, you wanna train
people how to think not what to think.
So we're not just gonna feed people a
bunch of code but we're gonna teach them
the precepts of the law. When you actually
give a fatwa as a Mufti, you sit
and you give a fatwa for a person,
it has to be done holistically.
And so,
the idea is that you have a community
that's already vulnerable.
You have a community that is already,
being stigmatized for a reason that is not
justifiable,
not only by the Sharia, but or but
but in addition to that, by any human,
by any human humanistic standard, human based standard
that doesn't even require recourse
to to to to the law of revelation.
And then those people in their neighborhoods cannot
even buy
a damn avocado
fresh.
Yeah. Because it's not available. It's not avail
there's no grocery stores in the hood. Food.
Food. You know what I mean? Like sadly,
we should say that. We should say that
right now because a lot of
a lot of Muslim community members live in
like nicer suburbs where they take for granted
the fact that you have like
Giant Eagle or Alpha Beta. I guess Alpha
Beta out of business, but Lucky's or like
Safeway or Albertsons or whatever. Right?
Percent sure. You have you have literally places
where you don't have access to any of
that. Right. But you can get like a
cheap 40. Yeah. And our, you know, our
people are the faces that are purveying it
to to the public. I would push back
even
regardless of this, like, prince principle of Hanafiq,
which is as a precept, I think,
grounded in some sort of rationality and logic.
It's a misapplication of it over here. And
I I challenge anyone
who actually claims that that this is permissible
in in the Sharia.
Bring the fatwa of a local person. A
person who has to show face in front
of the community who's willing to sign that
says that you're, you know, selling people, Miller
genuine draft in the hood is permissible.
And, then the scholars will deal with that
person on their own terms. Until then, this
kind of like brother difference of opinion, brother,
it's, you know, fatwa from here and from
there, like anonymous person, whatever. The Sharia is
not a joke. Otherwise, I get an anonymous
for for anything. Someone has to stand and,
back their
their based on some sort of credibility, and
you can't
evoke you can't invoke
not invoke.
Not evoke. You cannot invoke a a a
an abstract principle
which is explicated in like Kufa,
you know, 1300 years ago. Right. In order
to justify a very specific and very particular
and very, like, obviously harmful
context. Mhmm. And then claim that it's it's
permissible. And if someone wants to do that,
let them say it out loud and then
let them deal with the repercussions of it
because we're not hypocrites that try to milk
things from both sides and say, yeah. It's
Darla Hart. We hate we hate everybody, but
hey, look, I'm waving the flag and FBI,
you know, we're good citizens and all this
other stuff. Let those people come out and
say that, yeah, we we we wish no
goodwill to this, society and let them be
dealt with on those terms then, inshallah.
Wow. And then, you know,
adding to just the the fact that these
things are being sold, you know, whether it's,
gambling, lottery, and, all these other things. It's
also the treatment of the people,
in those neighborhoods because as a black person,
as an African American who grew up here
in the city of Cleveland, having family,
all over the city, one thing that we
all
understand
or understood
is,
unfortunately,
we are not treated well
in those establishments on top of the fact
that those things are being sold, which are
poisonous to the community.
You know, being spoken to in a way
that's,
derogatory
or,
you know, people may have, like, a sense
of, superiority
over
an entire neighborhood of people because they are
the one place that is available that sells
bread. You know?
Going back to what you were saying, you
know, food deserts are a thing. It's it's
a real thing. It's not only bread, it's
crappy bread and it's overpriced. Right. Right.
Yeah. And sometimes past its expiration. So, you
know, you got a whole bunch of issues,
surrounding this. And so,
there are a lot of people who have
talked,
to this point,
extensively
and are far more knowledgeable than I am
that have been around longer than I have
where,
the black dollar, as they say, you know,
African Americans
and, our money that we earn and how
we spend it,
in our neighborhoods,
that money has been taken out of it,
because as you said, many of the, people
who do own these businesses and, things like
that, that money that they're removing from these
communities is not going back into them.
It's a very,
complicated issue that has many, many layers, and
there's many ways of approaching it.
But sadly,
almost none of them are good.
Even myself, you know,
you know, as a Muslim now, I think
of think to my upbringing, my my, growing
up here in the city,
my
exposure to Muslims
not really understanding anything about the faith,
was limited to my interaction at the corner
store.
And
many many people many, many people, that is
their only,
understanding of, like, who
Muslims might be, whether they're,
Arab or
Indian or
from whichever nation,
you know, immigrant families from wherever they might
be.
Sadly, that might be the only understanding we
have of those people. Needless to say, again,
of their faith, but just those people at
all.
And that can be a that can be
really bad. It can be very damaging,
I think for the Muslim community. So
there's one issue of talking about the intoxicants
themselves being sold, but then there's the other
issue of the the the attitudes and the
behavior and the treatment of people.
And I think that's something else that needs
to be spoken about, talking about systemic racism.
Right.
I I and I love the fact that
you said that systemic racism isn't limited to
just the, you know, the justice system.
Right. Yeah. And police brutality,
but systemic
literally means at every level.
And sadly,
you know,
it's not being helped
by many Muslims in those circumstances.
I would also say, you know,
having a good opinion of the brothers
that
let's say they they don't they wouldn't want
to have these stores in an ideal scenario
right let's just give the benefit of the
doubt to the brothers
that
they don't want to have a store like
that
right
then there are 2 things I think that
we have to look at number 1.
You shouldn't get mad when they get called
out for it. Like we have to stop
getting angry
for calling this out and it needs to
be called out.
We can't just allow it to keep on
happening because
I think
that silence is what allows us this issue
to perpetuate.
Right.
Why would they ever wanna like maybe change
their store if they're comfortable?
Why would they ever wanna like you know
remove the liquor or whatever other type of,
chthonic
items that they sell if they're comfortable financially
and no one's getting upset about it
right so we need to like
bring it up and I don't think they
should get upset if they're genuine. If they
genuinely feel like okay you know what this
isn't what what is right And I'm doing
it because there's some like, you know, need
for it, which there isn't again, this was
all like hypothetical.
Right?
It wasn't to, to say, to, to like,
validate them in any way. So
they shouldn't get upset if it's brought up
number 1
and then number 2, we have to start
like thinking about a way we can
help change
the situation.
Because again,
giving them the benefit of the doubt, I
don't think anyone's gonna argue
that this is what should be done. Mhmm.
Even if it's allowed. Hypothetically again. Right?
No one's gonna argue that
they should be selling liquor, and they should
be selling, like, liquid poison. Yeah. But some
people say that they won't they they won't
be able to survive without it. They say
our store will shut down. We will close
if we don't sell these things. Right. And
so that's their argument. Right. So then my
again, my my contention is that if they
had an alternative with where they can sell
something and still be
make a
have their provisions okay and pay their bills.
I think all of them would rather do
that. Mhmm. Right? If they can switch it
out I'm gonna push back against all of
this. Yeah. I'm gonna push back against all
of this. Okay. Look,
Oh, they had no option. They were gonna
serve. Okay. Fine. They have no option. They're
gonna they're gonna survive. Right? This is what
they have to do to survive. Right?
And we should have given the benefit of
a doubt for our brothers. Are the people
who are buying the the the the alcohol,
are they not our brothers?
Are those women who get beaten by their
husbands when they're drunk, are they not our
sisters? Are those people who will take those
intoxicants and then move into, into into harder
and harder drugs and their lives will be
ruined. Are they not our brothers and sisters?
Where's the benefit of the of the doubt
for them? Where's their survival? Right. You know,
we have to, you know, at some point
or another, you have to like draw the
line. And I'm not saying like, let's demonize
and like whatever. As Muslims,
we always, for every single person, hold off
the hope that that person before
the the the death gasp,
leaves their throat, that they can they can
always repent and that door is open no
matter how much you hate that person as
a personally, but Allah to Allah always gives
that that option to a person, and we
have no right to
to begrudge a person that or to deny
them. However however, the issue is this, is
that even if you look at the classical,
conception of Islam with regards to people who
commit sin publicly,
which escalates when when when it has to
do with a sin that harms others versus
a sin that a person is harming themselves
with.
Classically, the way those people are supposed to
be treated,
in my understanding across the
is that when they say salam, you're not
to return their salams. When they die, their
janazas are not held publicly.
And when they die, the and the people
the the people of piety and righteousness are
not allowed to pray their janazas. Their janazas
are prayed behind closed doors with the minimum
number of Wow. Of people. They're to be
buried under the cover of,
of obscurity.
And,
they're not to be accorded any sort of,
public honor, rather they get the bare minimum
protocol of being a Muslim just because we
don't anathematize people because of sin. So fine.
But and it's not what is the what
is one of the mercies in it? The
mercy is in it is what is that
then it will
deter the next person from taking up that
path because these people are a parasite on
society and they are causing harm. SubhanAllah. There
are sickness on society. They are causing harm.
We are here. Sheikh Musa is here. Hamza
is here. Tristan is here to take them
by the hand and say, let's find a
a better way. It's gonna be hard. It's
gonna be struggle. I don't mind sacrificing from
what I have, the little I have, in
order to, in order to help you out.
And I myself have denied myself,
you know, a part of this dunya because
of my unwillingness to,
to ingratiate myself while harming the creation of
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. But this is one
of the basic precepts of deen is that
what Allah is the creator,
and we honor him through honoring his creation,
even even people who are different than us
or people he even that we may not
like.
And if we,
feel like we can harm somebody else in
the creation
and ingratiate ourselves,
by doing so, and that the Lord who
created that creation is going to let us
off scot free.
Trust me. The mercy isn't being a jerk
to such people in this world because the
beat down they're about to get in the
next world is going to be far worse.
And in this country as well, in this
country, I say this all the time. Okay?
The most forbearance I've ever seen in this
world is, African Americans.
Because any other group of people in in
in the world,
if they were stigmatized systemically over so many
centuries and treated as badly as African Americans
were, they would have gone like super ISIS
like a long time ago. Okay? If you
look at weird rebellions in different parts of
the world, the weird cruel tactics that they
use in order to, in order to fight
their, oppressors Yeah. Like, over stuff that's not
even a fraction. African American people say you
stole the land, no problem. Everyone gets their
land stolen. Stole their money, no problem. Everyone
gets their, their their money stolen. Do you
know what the name of your your your
family is from before slavery?
Unfortunately They literally took that away from you.
Yeah. I can't imagine, like, if someone if
somebody stole my money, I can always make
more money again. I don't if you if
I didn't know who my forefathers were Right.
Like, I would I don't know what I
would do. Right. You know what I mean?
Right. Like, these are these are these are
really, like, crazy crazy type things. If you
think you're gonna harm anyone Stop going by
x. Yeah. That's right. I mean, that's why
that's why they did it. Because they're like,
look, I'm literally identifying by my slave. That's
like Stockholm syndrome to the max. You know
like, Stockholm syndrome is like
I I I swear I think about this
constantly. It's like comparing like a paper cut
to AIDS, you know what I mean? Like
it's
so the point is is this is this,
look, if you think you're if you think
you're going to,
we talk about the other world, a lot
of people are like, yes, brother, you know,
I make the robot before I die. And
because why? It's pie in the sky in
July. People don't even believe it exists or
they
kind of differ it part off, you know.
Okay. Think about this world. The day the
day that somebody comes into your store, smashes
everything and burns it and kills you. Mhmm.
Okay? That day, if someone asks Hamza like,
did that person deserve it?
I don't sanction it. Yeah. But I'm just
saying like, you know, it's like it's a
if Al Capone got run over by a
a a a car in a traffic accident.
Mhmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I like
you shouldn't like purposely swerved hit the guy
maybe, but like
what skin is off my back in some
sort of karmic sense, in a humanistic sense.
Everyone knows you got
what you had coming. And we
that's not what we aspire to as Muslims.
But so then what's the,
what should be the response of the Muslim
community,
at the okay. So let's
let's talk about the broader picture here talking
about, you know, these neighborhoods
in which,
there may be Muslim owners who are selling
these things or,
behaving this way.
Then in turn, take that money and then
fund
a different part of the city or a
a masjid. Let's just speak clearly about that.
There are Masajid, which the,
the attendants, the people who come there, the
congregation,
are those same very same business owners who
are making,
Hanover Fist, you know, off of such neighborhoods,
and then this money is then
fueling and funding,
the building of
other Muslim
things like
masajid and schools and and things like that.
What should be the response?
How how do we approach that in a
conversation? How do we talk about that?
So I I I personally think, look,
we have to, like, separate a number of
layers. Right. This is one of the point
points of of learning fit
is to be able
to analyze,
a complex situation, break it down into its
substituent parts, and then order them,
in their, in the ranking of their importance.
Right?
And this this this actually will address maybe
something Like you mentioned like, you know, being
walking into a store and being treated like
crap. Right. Sometimes that's just an authentic experience
of a different culture. Right. You break, you
buy $5 ism, like me and Sheikh Musa
are just a subject to that in many
cases as,
as another person maybe, you know.
Some people just don't have good o'clock.
Whether you're black or white or whatever, you
know. But but but
that brings us to a point of, like,
look, the liquor store owners, right,
there's a principle in in the Quran in
the
the that
who is the archetype of. He's the of
oppression and of tyranny.
And he's mentioned in the Quran and the
story of Musa is, you know, Banu Israel
is the archetype of those who are downtrodden
and those who are oppressed.
And one of the reasons that that story
is mentioned again and again. Right? Surat Yusuf,
there's a Surah about Sayidna Yusuf alaihis salam.
As far as I can tell, there are
actually 2 whole Surahs about Sayidna Musa alaihis
salam and his struggle with Firaun, Hasas, and
Taha.
And then on top of that, like he's
basically mentioned wherever the prophets are mentioned,
so frequently.
Why?
Because this is something that's gonna replay in
human,
in human history again and again until the
day of judgment. Mhmm. And you're you and
me are not more downtrodden than were.
Mhmm. And, you know, whoever's up on top
of us is not more of a a
tyrant jerk than than Faran was. Right? So
what is the archetype that he divides people
up into different groups, and he plays them
off against each other,
and one group will dominate the other group,
and they just expend their energies fighting each
other. Right?
The sad part,
because I think many people will ask, why
the * should I listen to a suburban
Desi vent about, you know, his anger about
how muslims are dealing with stuff in the
hood.
What if Imagine,
you know, this pharaonic system has divided
people into, like,
47 different castes
in society.
What we're talking about is cast number 45,
oppressing cast number 47 right now.
So, yes, it sucks as being people in
the hood
who see Desi's and Arabs and, you know,
whatever,
selling alcohol to them.
Mhmm.
But this is a dishonored profession
even in our suburban immigrant Muslim culture.
A. I see. And B, the reason that
our people, you know, I'm Chaudhary, like, we're
we're we're like
feudal nobility.
Mhmm. Why is it that I'm I'm not
even in the homeland of my grandfather? I
don't have access to my grandfather's,
to his fief. Why? Because all of it
was taken away from him. My great grandfather
was dispossessed of his lands by the British
for refusing to acknowledge their sovereignty, and now
we're, you know, out on our * on
the street broke. Wow. Right?
So yes.
But I acknowledge, at least I know what,
you know, their names were. I acknowledge that,
like, what what happened to African Americans is
is
is
an order of magnitude worse than than what
happened to us. But we're not exactly sitting
in a great position either. So what we
can do is we can either bicker with
each other and fight each other, which is
the way the system is supposed to work.
Mhmm. Right? Because once we were done like,
you know, cussing each other out, then pharaoh
has 2 very tired people who are easy
to rule. Right. Right. Right?
What breaks my heart is that look, a
person who has vision and clarity knows that
the system that's that that that that's not
being fair with
us. We can either work together in order
to demand our seat at the table
because a person I mean, this is just
forget about, like, phoronic system and this this
is a human interactions. Right? A person who
doesn't respect themselves, no one else can be
expected to respect them. A person who doesn't
take care of their own needs, no one
else can be expected to take care of
them, you know? And you guys are great
guys, but like none of us are pretty
enough that someone is gonna like come and
set things up for us. You understand what
I'm saying? Yeah. And and societally, that's not
how it works at any at any rate.
Right.
Maybe we shared Musa, but not me. Right?
So the the the the idea is this
is that, like,
we, you know, like, my frustration is, like,
we gotta we gotta get out of this.
Like, you you know, cast number 45 cannot
see their salvation in
in entrenching themselves and being the capo that
like. Right? You know what capos are. Right?
Wait. You said cap? Capo. Capo. No. Capo
is in the holocaust. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. I
I read about this Viktor Frankl man search
for meaning. He was, he's a psychiatrist. He
talks about psychology a lot. So in the
holocaust, even in the Holocaust,
there were not enough Nazis to dominate
the death camps. Right. So what they would
do is they would, like,
give some sort of, like, very small incentive.
Like, you'll get, like, a little bit more
food or something, like, ridiculous like that.
And this dunya, everything and even a $1,000,000,000
is just like getting a second bowl of
soup. Like, it's not. Right. That's all it
is. Right. All of it will die one
day. Right? What is it? We'll give you,
like, a little bit we'll give you, like,
a second bowl of watery soup every day
where everyone else is starving to death. You'll
starve slightly slower than everybody else. Just do
our bidding for us.
And, and he talks about how the capitals
are more cruel. They're themselves, Jews and in
the death camp, and probably also gonna get
exterminated as well. The capitals are more cruel
to the,
to the,
you know, to the other people in the
death camp than many of the Nazi guards
are.
Right? Or at least that's the perception when
you're in that situation. Right? So what we
can do, we can do that. We can
be like, yeah, the capital is the problem.
Or we can realize, like, oh, wow. There's,
like, this whole, like, Nazi regime that's, like,
trying to eliminate us. You know? Mhmm. And
I'm not saying because
the Jews are a race as well as
a religion. We're not a race, you know.
And we're not even saying that we're us
is like a religion. We're just talking about
people who are downtrodden like why is it
that
like a group of people has a giant
eagle in their neighborhood and another group of
people don't. It's not be You know, access
to finance on that that level is not
gonna happen by like staying off of drugs,
and going to school, and getting a job,
and working hard. You know, that that's systemic
that you do everything right, and you're never
gonna be treated properly with that. Right. And
so, like, my my my thing is this
is that, like, we gotta we we gotta,
like, see the bigger picture
and understand that cast number 45, your way
forward is not gonna be by by by
a
harming
the people who are
in the same boat as you. Essentially, we're
all on the same team. Right. But how
do we how do we get people to
really feel that? Because people don't.
They don't they many people. Well, let's take
this
discussion for an example as an example. Right?
We all have to do our part
to whatever capacity we're able. Like a lot
of times, you know, and that's what we're
trying to do. And that's why we're here
sitting, you know, and sometimes,
the fame you know, I think I heard
it from you just the other day, but
it's well known that.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Right?
So it's not gonna be a perfect setup
or a perfect discussion, but we wanna make
sure that we got this off the ground
and we started this conversation. Right. Now,
sometimes people always make this objection that why
aren't our community leaders speaking out on this?
Right. Well, here we are trying to do
something. Right. But I already I already feel
the blowback to this is that Why why
aren't you listening? No. Well You know, when
I get fired from the masjid for doing
this, like, why why are you just gonna
make dua for me instead of like, you
know, standing You know even before that, Sheikh,
The some of the low back I can
already anticipate is, like, you know, why are
they speaking about it? We should put our
African American leaders upfront. They should be the
ones having the conversation. Mhmm. Right? Well and
to that, that's Tristan is the one the
motivation behind this. Alhamdulillah. Right? But then, like,
sheikh so and so, sheikh Hamza, Musa,
like, they should be deferring at these times.
This is the time when we need to
defer to our African American scholars and leaders
and imams. Right. Right? So then it's like,
okay. Hold on now. We're in this together.
It's not about who is able to put
the word out, who is able to speak.
Right? We have to do whatever we're capable
of. Mhmm. Right? Because
as a person who has been
given position or is at least perceived as
a leader in our community, I need to
have this conversation. Yeah. And if I don't,
then people are gonna criticize and say, why
aren't the leaders addressing this? Well, here we
are trying to address it. And and and
with that said too, the goal is to
reach out to the imam Abbas' of First
Cleveland Mosque and to the elders of our
community like,
Sheikh Farid Abdul Malik,
Sheikh Mohammed Abdul Samad on in on the
east side. And we wanna reach out to
them, and and we're doing our part to
to do that. Adris it. Abdul. Sheikh Abdul.
Sheikh. Yeah. All of these brothers, and I've
been on the phone call on the phone
with at least a half dozen other brothers
Yeah. And messaging them. So, like, look,
if we needed to do this, what is
the thing that you needed to address? Right.
What conversation what are the solutions?
Right? So then to to kind of pull
it back a little bit then,
to the discussion we're having about even
some of these
liquor stores in the inner city. Right? When
I say giving them in a good, you
know, having a good opinion,
giving them the benefit of the doubt, the
most I'm willing to do is to
say
that
if they could open another type of a
store,
then they would do that. Mhmm. Right? No
benefit of the doubt to say, well, maybe
they're taking some other opinion that it's halal.
Not willing to defer that. I'm not willing
to give that. Yeah. Give that up. We're
not gonna budge you there. That's, nonnegotiable.
But what I would be willing to do
is is say that if, right they feel
so constrained that they need to open a
store like that
then if there was another way
where they felt it was a viable
economically
sound plan that they can have this different
type of a store or this different type
of a business
in place of what I have. Mhmm. I
think that's a way forward.
So
okay.
On that point, when people say if I
don't sell x, y, and z,
I won't survive. Mhmm. Where is this coming
from? I don't understand I don't understand how
people got to a point where they,
developed this idea.
You're
serving the people in a neighborhood.
Their families are just like your family.
They need the same items that your family
needs. I don't understand how people think that,
and honestly, quite frankly, I find it extremely
disrespectful when they say, oh, we have to
sell these things because this is what these
people need or this is what these people
buy. You know, it's just like, no. We
need
milk for our children. We need food,
quality food,
you know, like
the,
Whole Foods in the
Highlands in the suburbs. You know, we need
those same things and the black
not just even the black neighborhoods, but the,
other, Hispanic neighborhoods of Cleveland, the Asian neighborhoods
of Cleveland. Like, they they need those same
quality things. And so I don't understand where
people,
develop this idea.
Where did this experience come from?
Because we have an example.
There is 1,
very large and known,
gas station and probably the busiest
intersection in the city of Cleveland.
And, you know, they don't sell alcohol there.
Sure. And now do they sell,
other things?
A lot of other I I they they
may sell lottery. I don't know. But I
do know for a fact they don't sell
alcohol.
And it is,
I think and anyone listening to this that's
from the city of Cleveland
probably knows this to be true, exactly what
I'm about to say. It's probably the most
successful and busiest, like, gas station in the
city. Now is it because of its position,
or is it because there's some blessing on
it because they did remove
that? I don't know. When you ask that
question, like, where did they even get this
mindset? Right?
Again, that's where I think it's a cop
out, and that's why I think people need
to be called out for it. Yeah. Right?
Like it's an excuse. People need to be
able to sleep at night. Right? And I
think it helps them sleep at night when
they justify
their sin.
And, you know, this goes into like a
deeper psychological, like,
mindset when it comes to just sin in
general. Yeah. People
wanna justify their sin so that they can,
like, feel better about themselves.
And that's when people stunt their growth spiritually,
and just as a human being. In this
case, even, like, as a citizen.
Right? Not just spiritually, but,
they justify it by, like, well, this is
the only type of business I can have.
Otherwise, I won't be able to, like, make
it financially. Right.
It it's a cop out. But surely, just
to justify
the having that store. Wow. Otherwise, they they
could do it. It could be done and
and then you give examples of how it's
done. So then what what what's the cop
out for the behavior then? You know? And
I say that because,
as brother Hamza just mentioned, like, you know,
I can talk about,
walking into a store and being treated a
certain way,
by, unfortunately,
by maybe Muslim owners
because they look at the color of my
skin or they look at the texture of
my hair, and they decide that they're gonna
treat me a certain way. But then in
that very same day, I can walk into
a masjid and also be treated a certain
type of way because of the color of
my skin and the texture of my hair.
Like, when we talk about
the behavior also, because the action of selling
these things is one thing. And, you know,
kind of transitioning,
segueing to the subject of the treatment of
African Americans in the city of Cleveland, whether
they are Muslim or not, whether we're in
a Muslim setting or not by Muslims
is also a very important discussion, if not,
equally as important
in some ways. Because,
you know, there are people like myself,
men and women
of our, community
that
go to,
massage it. And in this case, you know,
unfortunately, I would use, you know, the largest
measured in the city Cleveland on the west
side.
Sisters who go there and they receive horrible
treatment
from,
other women in that community,
being
told to do certain things, to behave a
certain type of way,
being treated as if they were less than.
So
this treatment
exists in both the stores and in the
massages. Like, how do we tackle that? How
do we I mean, but I'm gonna push
back with that. Right? Yeah.
Look, there's
Human interactions are very complex. Right. And
we cannot reduce them to simple principles. Mhmm.
And,
I'll push back and say look, the fact
that people are doing that in the masjid
may indicate that they're racist in the store
and in the Masjid. Mhmm.
But
I also get that treatment from people. Right.
I'm not even gonna claim that it's the
same at the same magnitude as what,
you know, African American,
brothers and sisters receive,
but I get weird crap treatment from people
Right. As a, for example, they see in
a predominantly Arab Masjid. Mhmm.
Okay? But as the imam,
as the imam who actually, like, literally can
call a conversation with somebody in classical Arabic
and like whatever,
I still get this treatment from people.
And part of it is what? Part of
it is people's own like
cultures that they have, not all of which
are justifiable,
of course. But if they treat everybody like
that, there are some people treat each other
like that. I mean, I've been to houses
and countries in the world. Why name names?
We're not here to, like, call people out
or whatever.
Where, like, husband and wife literally, like,
what what they call you know, what we
would refer to as domestic violence, they call,
like, a normal conversation. You know?
People do have, like, these different backgrounds that
they're coming from.
My my personal way of coping with these
things, again, I'm not saying, oh, look. Black
people just suck it up. Right?
I'm not black person. I don't you know
what I mean? But, like, my way of
coping with things being, like, whatever the wrong
number, 30, you know, or wrong number 46.
Right? The Arabs are like 4045,
Desis are 46, and like black you know
what I mean? Like,
being in there somewhere in the mix,
my my thing is that you can interpret
what a person says
or does,
in a number of different ways. For my
own
psychological,
self preservation and survival,
I try to give people as much benefit
of the doubt as is objectively possible just
because if I were to interpret everything as
being some sort of,
I myself would no longer be functional
and that doesn't help even if it all
was. Yeah. You know what I mean? I
agree with you with what you're saying. Yeah.
So, like, I feel like, in order to
although these are important conversations that need to
be had, I feel like we should prioritize
those things that are clear in fractions of
the over those things that are just like
people being a jerk.
Just because a person has finite amount of
a finite amount of, effort that they can
put into things in their lifetime, time, a
finite number of breaths, days, moments, hours, etcetera.
And so by cutting off the most diseased
part of the, you know, the most diseased
limb, It will allow us to perhaps save
the rest of the body and focus more
on it.
But but yeah. Yeah. Mustard mulch mustard culture
is really toxic, but part of it is
why. It has to do with what the
mustard is. The mustard is a refuge for
everybody. And who who's a refuge? Only refugee
would would look for refuge. Right? Most people
there are very few people who are healthy,
happy,
rich,
beautiful.
That's it. Oh, let's go worship Allah Ta'ala.
Usually, and there are some people who are
like that. Right?
And stuff. Right? But like most people, what
are they?
Someone died, I'm gonna come to the Masjid.
I'm going through difficulty, I'm gonna come to
the Masjid. Nobody likes me, I'm gonna come
to the Masjid.
I really believe many Masjid board members,
literally, this is the only place where they
can open their mouth and people won't laugh
at them or like people will treat them
with respect. That's why they come to the
Masjid because they cannot make friends at work,
because they cannot make friends at school, because
they don't have any social circle, because they
have no social skills as well. But So
they just been praying at the masjid like
Isha, like, 3 times a week for the
last 20 years and somehow they But there
are some Masjid that operate like
a,
a club, you know, for the elite.
Correct?
There are some measures where it it it
it's like,
those refugees
are
looked down upon
and not really welcome.
Well, that's what I'm saying. You look at
as a elite. Right? Yeah. Referee I mean,
in their own eyes. In their own eyes.
Right? Yeah. So what happens once they become
entrenched in those positions, then they start acting
like a jerk like everybody else does. Like
like the mother-in-law,
who used to be a daughter-in-law, who her
mother-in-law used to pick on, now she has
like a now now she's the matriarch.
Oh. And now she's gonna like, you know,
throw a dish at her her daughter-in-law because
like whatever the there's a streak on the
bathroom window or whatever. So come on, Shay,
father in laws are guilty
too. So like they say Like evoking imagery.
So like they say hurt people hurt people.
Right. You know? So Yeah. It's kinda long.
But like that's that's one of the reasons
that that that that we have to have
these conversations. We have to struggle struggle to
know,
is is what is that people oftentimes do
things unconsciously
and, I don't think anyone is gonna like
like hearing these things.
But
once
the idea goes into a person's head,
they have to think about it. They have
to cope with it, you know?
But but, you know,
the the the point is there there is
there is a lot going on and there
is something that needs to happen in order
to change these things. A lot of these
things have to do with, like, our funding
models. Right? Most massages in America
work on the sugar daddy model. Mhmm. Which
is that someone comes, they write a check,
and a check
at some point, you know, in some massages,
the person actually bankrolls the entire masjid.
Dean wise, it's not okay, but, for that
person to have complete say,
the say should be to the ulama.
They're the heir heirs of the prophet alayhi
musaato alaihi wasalam. This is very clear. Yeah.
But at least from
a secular worldly point of view, okay, fine.
He's paying for it. Let him whatever. You
know, he put the quarter in the jukebox.
Let him choose a song. Right?
What ends up happening is you have someone
who leverages. They'll give like 10% or 5%
or 15% or 20% of the funding, and
they'll leverage their donation in order to completely,
like,
in order to completely hijack the agenda of
the entire,
Masjid thereafter.
We can blame those people and be angry
with those people or hurt by those people.
Right. We can and we should.
But but part of it is our fault
as well. Why is it that the average
Muslim, when they look at which Masjid they
wanna attend, they're not gonna look where where
am I going to hear the Haqq? Where
am I gonna learn about the the deen?
Where is my brothers and sisters? Where is
this? Where is that? Where is the other
thing? They're gonna say, oh, look. The chandelier
is really needed in that masjid. Mhmm. And
even though that chandelier masjid, that chandelier was
paid for with the money that would have
taught your children
and,
like, give them equip them with the skills
to, like, survive,
you know, their life without falling out of
Deen. But we all like the chandelier. And,
you know, like, black people like the chandelier
just like white people do, just like Arabs
and Desis do. You know what I mean?
That's
these are like systemic issues that run deep,
you know. And this is I wanna push
back against even this idea that, like, why
are you guys talking about this? Shouldn't, you
know, we should you should take a back
seat to the African Amer yes. No.
Put the back seat aside. We should listen
to the African American community just like we
should listen to everybody. We have to listen
to everybody. Right. Right? However, the leadership of
this Umma was always based on
on knowledge. Mhmm. The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
was not a black man. If you are
gonna say to him that you can't speak
about black people, then you are you are
you are misguided.
And someone said, well, he was the Nabi
sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Abu Bakr alaihi wasallam who
was not a black man. Omar said, Ali,
I think if if they were here today,
we may be like by American like racial
standards, we might consider them to be black.
Mhmm. Right? But the point is is this
is that like always the leadership
was was based on knowledge
Right. Not based on,
not based on on on demographics. And I
personally find it difficult to
be a person who's very passionate about these
issues and wants to engage with them, but
then on the other side,
get push back.
Because there are people who wanna define these
struggles, which are these struggles are part of
the deen. Mhmm. They're part of the sacred
history of our ummah. They're part of the
mandate that was given by, Allah to the
prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, and then afterward
to all of his successors and heirs and
especially those people who have the ijazah to
the ullama that connect under the prophet sallallahu
alaihi wa sallam. They're part of that struggle.
It's very frustrating to have someone rip that
frame apart,
while claiming Islam. Rip that frame apart and
then reframe all the issues based on, like,
whatever 20th century humanist, like, I identity politics,
modernist, and identity politics, which oftentimes just end
up being, oh, look. This group is, like,
has a lot of money and does debauchery
and,
they're oppressing us because we should also have
a lot of money and do the same.
Screw all of you people. I have nothing
to do with any of you. If you
wanna cancel me, please go ahead and do
so right now. Yeah.
I think again,
this is a good start
for the conversations that we need to have.
I mean a person can even take it
another step further.
When you were talking about treatment
being an issue,
I mean, if you sell a particular type
of product,
don't be surprised when you attract a particular
type of customer.
Right? So you are perpetuating that
and then you're blaming them for it.
Right? When those customers and it goes beyond
race too because someone can even look at
this whole socioeconomic
issue and and class right in society that
it's a poverty thing. Yeah. Right. So, whether
you're black white yellow,
or red or brown, if you are in
an impoverished neighborhood, you're going to have a
particular type of people. If you are selling
a particular type of product
that will come to your store and then
you're going to get upset when
like maybe they commit a crime against you
and now you're going to project that bias
and racist,
mentality on everyone you meet like that.
Right. So it it just it's like an
unbroken cycle but again I
think the goal was
to launch
this conversation and to launch this discussion and
this will be one of many more discussions
that which I'm hoping for.
So
I don't know what you all had in
mind in terms of like
this first session of ours. Yeah. And,
if you wanted if there's anything else, Sheikh,
that you think we should discuss at this
particular point Well, actually,
I I I have,
2 things that I'd like to,
mention. 1, I I would like to follow-up
on,
what you said earlier regarding systemic issues and,
like,
kind kind of, like, clearly defining that,
because some people use
the
they use this terminology,
systemic
issues, their systemic racism,
and they always directed at
police brutality
or
certain policies that exist within this nation. They
don't see systemic
racism and systemic issues as something
that's closely related to, the second point that
I wanted to bring up, which is talking
about the history
of some of the things that have happened
in the city,
you know,
regarding black people,
regarding the entire community.
We can get into a very long and,
drawn out conversation talking about redlining and, you
know, banks denying things to, black families and
people that live within certain sectors of the
city. But,
again, tying this to the second point,
what about the history of Islam in Cleveland?
You know,
there are systemic
problems
that,
affected
the way that this community has come to
be. One of the things that I found
very interesting
talking to,
an older, brother in our community
was, you know, the building of
the Islamic Center of Cleveland in the city
of Parma, Ohio.
You know,
again, Cleveland being a predominantly
black city,
Parma having not the best
historic reputation when it can when it came
to the treatment of black people. Be be
be open be straightforward. I mean and you
know what I mean? Say black people are
not treated well in poverty. Yeah. Yeah.
Totally. Black people are Historically, one of the
more racist suburbs in the greater city. Yes.
A lot of, white supremacist activity, things like
that,
and and not just Parma.
Really all over the city.
The the the sub suburban areas, especially on
the west side.
Being a west sider,
growing up my whole life,
we've dealt with all kinds of things like
that. But in particular,
talking about the Islamic Center of Cleveland, I
really wanna emphasize the name of this masjid
being built
in Parma, Ohio, and a and a place
that was
vehemently,
as far as I understand. And, you know,
we need to have more conversations about this.
It was opposed for it to be built
there because, apparently, there was a plan. And,
again, we need to talk to our elders
in our community who can talk who can
speak
more to this point. There was a plan
before that that it will be built in
a part of the city where all
cleavenders could attend. You know,
especially,
highlighting the African American community.
I I I I when I first learned
about this, I I thought,
this is
a piece of information that is almost never
spoken about.
It's something that is very plain to see.
People that are younger,
that don't know that history, people have asked
me, like, why would they build up a
mosque in Parma? I have heard so many
people ask that question. People that I my
family members, close friends of mine that are
not Muslim, when they hear, oh, it's in
Parma? They're like, why why Parma?
There's been so many questions about that. And
so learning a little bit about that systemic
issue of where it was placed,
it I mean, now, you know, spilled milk.
It's over, you know, the message is built,
and now people know that it's there. But
why was it allowed to happen, or who
wanted it to happen that way?
I think it's a it's a it's a
it's a an an important part of this
conversation that needs to be had,
along with talking more about
the history of Islam in Cleveland.
And so I I just wanted to It's
interesting it's interesting you mentioned, I'm relatively new
to the community. Mhmm. I think,
in less than a month, I'll be up
at 1 year
or about a month. July. About about month's
time, July 15th or so, I think it
will be what my, like, 1 year Cleveland
imam anniversary.
Oh, you know.
Although, anniversaries are and we don't celebrate them.
But,
the
the the fun part about this conversation is
the, like, complete chasm and divide between people.
Right. Because I've talked to 2 people who
2 types of people who have told me
this story. Mhmm. One group of people who
echoed a
a
a narrative that's very similar to the one
that you mentioned. Mhmm. And then one group
of people who talk about the heroic journey
Mhmm. Out to Parma, and how it was
like the best thing that happened to the
Muslim community since like Right. Right. You know,
halal shawarmas or whatever.
This
The come Like complete stark disconnect. And the
thing is like, someone's gonna listen to this
and be like, oh, look, you're a hypocrite.
You're imam in the masjid, now you're gonna
bad mouth it. I'm not bad mouthing it.
It's spilled like you said, hey, whatever the
issue is or isn't, it spilled milk. But
like, let's talk about it. If you can't
even acknowledge that someone's feelings are hurt, whether
or not you agree with them or not.
Mhmm. If you can't even acknowledge that another
person's feelings are hurt by something
or that this wasn't good for them, This
didn't benefit them. Like, you know ICC, what
the original ICC was. Right? It's Masjid Rasoolah
in in On Detroit. Right? Right. Mhmm. And
it's in the middle of the hood. Yeah.
You know? Right. And,
I love Masjid Rasool Allah. I go there,
like, on if I have, like, I'll sometimes
slip over there to go pray or whatever.
You know, the name endears it to me.
There's a type of
in in in that place because it was
the first place that they met. And but
you can tell how it's obvious that the
the constituency that's served by it or by
Masjid Nur or by the first Cleveland Masjid
is a very different constituency.
Right. And not just by race, but but
by number of a number of things. 1
is like economic,
economic factors. The other thing is this culture.
There's a completely different culture. It's like a
different country. Right.
You know, and,
the culture in the burbs is very different.
And, you know, this idea of, like, just
as a completely, like,
fanatical,
like,
how are people gonna come to the Masjid
5 times a day when everyone lives, like,
10 miles away, 7 miles away? You know
what I mean?
There's a lot of discussions, issues. We should
we should accept the fact that, look, there's
a reason that people, you know, like, for
example, one uncle was telling me like, I
got so many tickets, you know, before we
built this masjid because, I couldn't find a
place to park in Juman, the in the
city
there. They're really hawkish about parking enforcement,
which is true. And that's also a systemic
racism issue. Oh, yeah. You know? And so
to him, like, he's like, Parma is great.
Like, you know, I'm not getting as many
parking tickets because we have a, like, a
a a a a a like giant eagle
sized parking lot, Michelle.
Michelle. Right? To to him, he, in his
mind, it's not about race. Yeah. And maybe
really, in his heart, it's not about race
either. You know? Mhmm. But, and so, we
acknowledge that. I'm happy.
I'm I'm happy. I'm I'm happy you're not
getting parking tickets. Mhmm. You know what I
mean? I I respect that. I'm happy about
that. Right? Yeah. Because the message was needed.
Can you,
however,
share the sadness of the person who like
must have moved far away from them? Mhmm.
Can you share the sadness of the person
who like now, because
because all the money was pulled out of
that community which is supposed to be economically
diverse as well as racially diverse.
Can you be sad with them that there's
there's
no one who
can be an imam for English speaking,
a group of people that combines knowledge because
they cannot afford to have such a imam
in there and their and their masjid like
that. Can you be sad for those children
who are not gonna, you know, for those
youth, for those professionals that will not have
that direction? Can you acknowledge the fact that
this this choice,
people
were hurt by it, it, and they they're
continually
losing in their deen Yeah. Because of this.
Can you acknowledge that fact or no? Are
you just gonna, like, double down and be,
like, no. Screw you. You guys are all
being unreasonable
and And it's not a small number of
people. No. That that that's the biggest, I
think, takeaway from that. It's really not a
small a small number of people who have,
been
I I I don't wanna say denied, but
it almost is as strong as deny. It
it just it it has been made a
hardship on them
to to get there.
You know, there are massages on the east
side of Cleveland that I have attended,
over the years, and, you know, there have
been conversations where people have said and stated,
you know, how much they wish they had
an opportunity,
for someone to teach Arabic
there for years
saying, like, you know, if only
there was someone, you know, and whereas on
the on the flip side of that, you
have,
Masajid on in certain parts of town where,
you might have
many people who are trying to teach Arabic
and people are just not interested.
And so, you know, those kind of things,
for me,
they say a lot, you know, when when
you get to know the entirety of the
Muslim community in Cleveland. And you don't have
this ideology or this thought
process that when you hear a Muslim,
you equate that with out of because there
are some people who do within the Muslim
out
of. Period.
You were saying something about, an experience that
you had, in the pod
in the, conference that we had with Sheikh
Tamim about how after the chutba, someone came
and offered some help with it for can
you recall that
story? Yeah. I mean, it wasn't
an isolated
incident Yeah. By any stretch, but
it it's not uncommon
after a chutba
for me to be approached by an
Arabic speaking person, an an older Arab person
usually. And you know what? We say Arabic
speaking in the most Right. In the most,
like, whimsical of ways. In general and
and liberal. Because I'm not Arabic. Maybe they
don't know how to speak it. But anyway.
Right. So,
you know, and and and basically
after the chutva
asked the typical question like, oh, brother, where
are you from? Right. Where are you from?
And I'll tell them I'm Filipino. Parents are
from the Philippines, born and raised in San
Diego. And the conversations
normally starts off in Arabic. Right? But then
it shifts back to English
and because I just speak Fusha. So, you
know, and they're speaking usually
the classical Arabic as opposed to like conversational.
So,
then it it it's usually followed up by
okay. Mashallah. That's great. Well, if you ever
need any help learning to understand hadith or
Quran, just let me know. Right?
Because, you know, they socially construct us. They
look at even someone like me. Right? And
they just think, look at this *.
What is it? He's so cute. Oh my
goodness. Right?
Look, look at the cute * has
learned a little bit of Arabic and he's
worked really hard and he could even say
some verses. Right? But,
hopefully at some point
I can maybe help him learn even more
Arabic. Yeah. So
again, those are the very more the more,
covert type of
experiences. Yeah. So I I don't get it
nearly as frequently probably as you do. Mhmm.
But
it happens. I You you were in Sham
how many times?
And they're wonderful people. We love the people
of Sham, you know. Right. But sometimes people
just do it out of complete stark naive,
like, ignorance not as in like satanic ignorance.
Ignorance as in like, they're just like, don't
know anything about the world, you know. Mhmm.
Like, you know, you'll be talking to someone
in in Arabic for like 15 minutes, you
know. And then they'll be like, where are
you from? From America. Muslim.
You Muslim? I'm like,
I'm like,
it's going.
You know,
and it's funny because as you're saying this,
you know, and listening to it, it just
reminds me of,
you know, the the the experience as a
African American man here in Cleveland, in America,
in any professional environment or anything
where, you know, I'm speaking like this and
people say like, oh, you're very articulate. And
I'm just like,
you know, and many, many, many black people
know what I'm talking about when you get
that because it's like
it's the bar set so low. Black men.
Yeah. Right. It's this bar set so low
that me just speaking English
is, you know, and and not the way
that you expect it. Yeah. That's, you know,
you're, like, boxing in the door. Yo. Yo.
Yo. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're so articulate. Yeah.
And I'm just like,
wow, man. You know? And so what you
guys speak, Ybonnet? Yeah. I know. Like, is
it shocking that I know how to pronounce
English? The only language that I my my
people have been forced to speak. Do people
accuse you of of of of of trying
to talk white?
I don't really get that too much, but
I know that that happens too. You know,
people are just like, oh, you know, you're
trying to sound white and this and that.
And so no disrespect to,
you know, any of my white brothers and
sisters out there, but
it's just silly to me. It's just like,
wait a minute.
First of all
let let's talk about what you said earlier.
My people were taken away from their native
culture, language, and everything else and forced into
what we have. Right? So English is the
only language that I do speak and that
my parents speak and that my grandparents speak.
So me speaking English
properly
is now
weird. Like, it just it it's very straight
like, there's a lot you can read into
that. But, it's just funny that you saying
that it just reminded me, you know, again,
many black folks go through the same thing
just from speaking English correctly. I had the
same conversation just just the other day with
Safe. I was asked guys, Safe, jujitsu Safe,
Coach Safe. Yeah. Coach Safe. Yeah. So,
and I was just asking him about his
only experience. Just for anyone who's not from
the from this community Yeah. We actually have
coach safe teaches, like,
jujitsu
Right. In the Masjid, just so you know
that our community is
better than yours, not based on race, but
just on merit. Yeah. Yeah. So he said
the same thing when I was asking about
specific
circumstances or experiences that he's had. He was
like, yes, oftentimes I'll get that, you know,
you speak really, you're very well spoken. Yeah.
But the implication is like as a black
man. Man. Yeah. Right? Because Yeah. Somehow,
may maybe he's not supposed to be well
spoken. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And
and it happens in so many different respects.
Just when your expertise,
in something, you know, that you're doing at
work,
the way you speak, the way you carry
yourself, the way you
dress. You know, I imagine that many of
my brothers,
of African descent, when they are do speak
Arabic and they are scholars
of this deen and they are expressing those
things, you know,
maybe there are people who respond to them
in the same way that you're speaking of,
you know, just because of the way that
you look or the way that you or
when you say you're from America or something,
you know, and people have these
responses that
I don't know. To me, they're just very
telling, you know. Unfortunately, people just
the bar is held,
unfortunately low, I think. But I think it's
important not to project. It's important not to
project our issues onto onto Muslim civilization, because
it's not always the case. I mean, one
of the interesting things is
Islam is conflated by whiteness
from villagers
who only know what's in their village, and
everybody in their village is white.
And if you were to tell them, hey,
you know Seda Ali radiAllahuan who was probably
closer to being a black man, you know,
according to American race construction or whatever. Mhmm.
They may scream and shout,
you know, as if you uttered Kufr, you
know, some of our the Shiite community. That's
literally how how people react to that. Why?
Because you're from a village in Lebanon where
everybody is like
white and nobody's like read any of the
books of history. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Same issue same issue growing up as a
Christian when people would say Jesus
probably had brown skin. Skin of brass? Yes.
Skin of bronze. Yeah. Bronze. Yeah. Exactly. So,
like, it's the same kind of situation, but
continue. You know? And so, like and but
but right? However, that's not representative of
our civilization. That's their village.
If you go to Hejaz, go to go
to
and go to Madinah Munawara. Right? It's interesting,
like,
I think it's like like, Mexicans will refer
to themselves or Brazilians,
they'll refer to themselves as like La Raza
Cosmica. Mhmm. Like, we're the race of, like,
the cosmos. Meaning why? Because we have they're
they're accustomed to having a society in where
people are
all considered to be part of the land.
Mhmm. There may be racism between them Mhmm.
But they're all considered it's not like you're
an outsider. Mhmm. You know, they're all considered
to be part of the land and, they
look very different than one another. You see
that in Hijaz. You'll see a family of
Sadat, of the Al Bayt of the prophet
sallallahu alaihi wa sallam.
And that one family, they'll be,
relatives from from Kenya, Somalia,
from Tanzania
that will be very very much
black. Mhmm. What we would consider in America
black. Mhmm. And then there'll be a part
of that family in Yemen, a part of
that family in South India, a part of
that family in the Malabar Coast. Right? A
part of family in Indonesia, Malaysia. Gotcha. And
they mix and they intermarry with one another.
And if you go see the Hejazi people,
the people of Makkah, Mukarama, and the people
of Madinah Manohar who are the descendants of
basically
a judge of of students of knowledge and
people who came for Hajj. Right?
You see that. You'll literally see a person
like Fulan is like, you know, their last
name is literally Asini is like the Chinese.
Right? We were joking about that. But, like,
they're actually from, like, the actual China.
Mhmm. You know what I mean? And their
family's been resident in Madinah Manawara for so
many,
generations, you know. That you see that we
do have those models in our in the
best, you know, in the best and most
representative parts of, of our society.
So I would
hope that we wouldn't
we wouldn't use that as a a shield
against
acknowledging that we do have problems and trying
to deal with them. But at the same
time, I hope we wouldn't
completely
not look at that model and, you know,
like, discard it because in it there's a
lot of for us as well, a lot
of cure for the the the problems that
that ill us. You know? I mean, like,
if you brought up something, for example, you
said, like, you know, how many people in
the east side would be like, would love
to have, like, Arabic lessons, you know, there
rather than having to drive across town. In
this one issue,
I have no sympathy whatsoever, not even slightly.
Why? Because where did I have to go
go learn Arabic?
Oh. I had to go to Mauritania and
I had to go to Pakistan. Yeah.
This is the story of our civilization. Like,
you know, knowledge when it comes to knowledge,
no one's gonna give you a handout. Right.
Right.
And when it comes to knowledge, even a
lowly,
Punjabi villager,
can enter into the Masjid and, like, look
the patrician Arabs in the eyes that are
and
the Ansari and
Koreshi will have to pray behind me. Why?
Because I busted the hustle in order
to acquire that and it cost me dearly.
I spent a great Sheikh Musa spent a
great amount of his life,
doing that. You know, whereas he could have
built his like what a real estate investment
empire or whatever. But he didn't. He spent
all the good years of his life. And
you think it's a joke. Both of our
parents are into real estate. You know?
They're both into real estate. My last name
is my legal last name is Chaudhry. Chaudhry
means like like a like Landlord. Like a
land like a like a landlord in the
feudal sense. Right. You know? And I I
people ask me why do you just go
by Wal Mahbou? Why don't you write? I
don't literally, I don't own any land. Like,
I I'm completely, like,
destitute from the patrimony of my forefathers.
But this is something that you know? And
so but these are stories of our civilization.
You know? That there are stories that are
that are are,
we have to look to our civilization in
order to,
I guess, orient ourselves and not make everything
into
into,
a grievance because at some point or another,
by doing so, we will paralyze ourselves. You
know? Like, one of the things people like,
I personally detest the nation of Islam. It's
neither a nation nor is it Islam. A
lot of people give me grief for that.
I don't think anything good comes from lying
about Allah and his messenger
but one of the things a lot of
black people appreciated about it is, like, they
apparently put out a a pamphlet called do
for self
in which the idea was, like, we gotta
stand up on our own 2 feet. We
can't wait for, you know, other if everyone
else in the community is a liquor store
owner, we gotta bust the hustle and we
gotta do it. We gotta make it happen.
And the great part is, there are some
amazing African American scholars in this country. Right.
Some of them are known, like Imam Zaid.
Mhmm.
Some of them are semi known, like Sheita
Abdul Basir is probably one of the preeminent,
preeminent,
authorities in Islamic finance in America,
and a person who's known around the world.
Mhmm. And we actually had him at the
at the ICC to do a program Right.
And very few very few people from the
African American community came to that. Mhmm.
Maybe they didn't know, so I'm not blaming
them. But I'm just saying that that we
did have him over because he's a person
I look up to. And I ask as
an authority that I trust his opinion more
than I trust my own opinion about certain
finance related,
legal matters, you know? Mhmm. But then we
also have people like Moana Moana Zubair, Moana,
Harun. Harun. Right? Moana Sabir Haq, who,
are amazing people, and nobody knows who they
are. They're classmates of Sheikh Amin Kalogaria,
from Darul Qasem,
and and, Waqed, until relatively recently, very few
peop few people knew who he was even
though he's like the mountain.
They're They're his classmates. Nobody knows who they
are. They're, you know,
I want Mara Harun, some of his sons
are here in Cleveland. I've already reached out
to them about being on his
podcast. Right? Right.
Was a refugee, Afro Cuban refugee.
He came to he came to, America
and his raft, he came on a raft.
His raft broke apart in the middle of
the ocean.
This is before he was Muslim, I think.
Right? Obviously, because Cuba, there's very very little
exposure to Islam until very recently.
His raft broke up in the middle of
the, in the middle of the, Caribbean Sea.
Mhmm. And 2 dolphins brought him to shore.
Subhanahu wa. And, Bahayissa,
who's a old school from Minneapolis slash Chicago,
a
a a a a a Caucasian convert.
He told me that that he told this
story to, Mohan and Amul Hassan, the the
last Amir of Tabligh,
who's a great alum, a great scholar, and
a great great,
you know, sheikh of, of of the Tarika
much less of anything else. Just a very
very great individual.
And great. I mean, like, not as like,
yeah, he swell. No. Like, as in like
he's a a a a person of a
very high rank amongst the and amongst
the. He said that he said that those
were not dolphins that saved you.
Otherwise, nobody would drown. So those are angels
that saved you, saved you, you know.
And if you meet him, you'll understand why
he would say that.
Nobody even knows these people's name much as
goes out to meet them, you know. Moana
Moana Haroun is from Grenada. He's Afro Cuban
from Afro Caribbean from Grenada.
He's there in Detroit, you know.
We also have to seek these people out.
Right. You know, we also have to sit
out there. If Moan Zubair was in Detroit,
now he's in Arizona. Arizona.
Right? There was one Moan Abdul Hamid Saab
in in in Rhode Rhode Island, I believe,
who was actually a a student of Allama
Youssef Benuri.
Right?
Literally, every tradition, Al Azhar al Sharif, Medina,
all of the all of the different traditions.
There are people from the African American community
who are learned.
We also have to like And this is
this is something that we have to put
on on not ourselves just as Muslim as
a Muslim as an African American community as
well. Right. Right. Like we
why is it that those people are not
given a huge platform? You know, why is
it that those people are not supported? Why
is it those people are not,
you know, revered as authorities? You know? Yeah.
These are things we have to work on.
Right. Right.
And I think that it's important
for us to
start working
on a lot of the systemic issues even
even these that you just presented.
And,
as Sheikh Musa mentioned, again, I go back
to that talking about which
systemic
issues
can we realistically have an effect on, I
think,
I I think it's important to
position maybe a lot of these conversations on
finding
solutions or finding very realistic applications in which
we can start to,
address
these systemic issues and move on to them,
you know, not just talk about it. Because
one thing I was listening to,
you know, perhaps we should end on this
note, but I was listening to,
NPR and,
brother
Khalil Gibran Muhammad was saying,
you know, in his research,
he found that for over a century now
here in America,
a lot of the conversations about ident
identifying issues have gone on.
It just it keeps happening over and over
and over and over and over, but there's
not something happening as a result of that.
So just talking about the identification of certain
systemic issues and problems and so on and
so forth is one thing, but, like, we
really need to find
real,
opportunities to do something about those things, I
think. And, you know, inshallah, I hope that
these conversations here lead to actions taking place
that can, inshallah, help,
the people that we're talking about, especially
the black people here in the city of
Cleveland, Muslim or not,
if we can
play our part in helping,
our brothers and sisters,
I think that's
that should be, one of the goals I
think that we should try to attain,
while we are here, Inshallah. So And and,
you know, for the listeners too, Inshallah,
the, the, the one of the objectives of
this is not simply to
entertain. We're not here to just put something
out there so you all can listen to
something while you drive to like Columbus. Right.
Right. So, if you have legitimate,
genuine,
solution driven ideas of how we can maybe
address some of the things we we discuss,
then we're accessible.
You could reach out to Sheikh Hamza, myself,
to Tristan. You got a man on the
inside now. Right. Specifically, right. This the whole
thing is to put this out there. Like
we're we're we're trying to impact something and
it starts with the conversation.
So,
if we address the issue of liquor stores
in the inner city
in the predominantly black communities
and if you have an actual
plan of how to address this in solution
and you want or if you wanna be
a part of that plan, you're willing to
actually put your money where your mouth is
or put in the time and the the
human capital
necessary to effect change, then reach out to
us. Because, again, the goal is to,
address these issues so that they can actually
be,
tackled. Right. Right. And I you know, I'll
push back a little bit. I think that,
being a a student of
a student of of Dean and of the
Ussuli tradition, of the principal tradition,
Sometimes people, they, knock the identifying and the
talking a lot.
And,
we let's keep talking about it. Let's keep
identifying things Absolutely. Because what look, what what's
one of the problems. Right? There one of
the problems that breaks my heart the most,
most, is that the problems, they start in
the heart and the solutions start in the
heart. That inside the heart of hearts,
there are people who identify with the oppressor.
They they're wrong 45 out of 47.
You know?
47 being
and one being
pharaoh.
Right?
They're at wrong 45, but they they see
in they see themselves in in in in
pharaoh rather than in Musa alaihi sama.
And, you know, Allah mentions the story again
and again. Why? Because the whole point is
you're supposed to Musa,
you know? When I was a kid, you
know, I I we would hear about
Martin Luther King. They didn't mention Malcolm x
when I was a kid in elementary school.
I guess that that happened after like 9,
the nineties and stuff like that. That became
more acceptable. Yeah. But like, you know, in
the eighties, I heard about
Martin Luther King and the March on Washington.
And they shot him. They killed him.
And as a kid, I was like, you
know, I know which if I was
in that time and place, I know which
side I would be on. Who knows? A
lot knows best if I was alive at
that time, but I knew at least as
a kid who my sympathies were with. Mhmm.
You know? And,
the problem is what? We have people who
identify with the oppressor. And the the pathology
is a bit deeper than that, which is
what I think everybody if you ask them,
they would say, like, I wanna be with
MLK, you know. But
but but so then why do you live
in the neighborhood of the people who shot
him? Mhmm. Why do you
dress like the people who shot him, talk
like the people who shot him? You know,
everything about everything about, like, what what you
are, what you look like, how you present
yourself,
what you identify with, who you identify with
are of the class of the people who
literally killed and got away with it. Yeah.
You know? And it's really interesting too because,
like, you know, we're talking about memes. It's
so funny how, like, memes have, like, taught
people things that, like,
hour long podcast can't.
You know? That there's a meme it's not
a meme. It's like screenshot. Someone's like, well,
if MLK was alive today, he would be
protesting peacefully. And I'm not I'm not talking
I'm not legitimating,
rioting and looting. And I actually find the
conflation of rioting and looting with protest
to be insulting, and just a sign that
a person is clueless. Right? But
there's someone said that like, well if MLK
was alive, he'd be protesting peacefully.
You know. And then like the response is
like what? Yeah. It's like he was protesting
peacefully. You all shot him. Right.
You know? That that's fact. And and so
I was gonna say that too. Yeah. Yeah.
There you go. And so and so the
point is is this is that, like, we
need to talk about these things. Why? Because
I don't know what solution to liquor stores
is. Someone's like like, do 10 liquor store
owners come to me right now and be
like, okay, Shaikh, we're gonna stop. Like, whatever.
How are we gonna pay the next month's
rent? I don't know. Figure it out. You
know, like, you know, like, what am I
gonna say? You know? And so the point
is is this is that Wow. The the
the way the solution is going to
move like like a cure, like like the
cure moves through the body, you know Right.
Of a sickness,
is when the hearts
are are cured, there's a a natural dynamic
and creative power in the heart of every
believer,
which when it's unleashed, it will change society.
The musicians will make the music
pure, and the architects will make their architecture
pure. And the the laborers will make their
labor pure
if it's unlocked from inside the heart. And
we have to talk about it because me
and Sheikh Musa can't do it alone. If
I swear, if I could pull my light
saber out and be like, let's just like,
let's just go and do the emperor, you
know,
real hard right now. Yeah. You know? Right
there. You know what I mean? I worked
it. No. Seriously.
Don't you think we would do it? Yeah.
Don't you think I sit in my in
my home and make dua for these things
like every day? Yeah. You know? Don't you
think I would be ready if someone were
to tell me hamza, all you have to
do is push this button, you'll kill yourself
and solve everybody else's problems. I wouldn't push
it. Mhmm.
But unfortunately, it's not even that easy. Mhmm.
Right? So I think we should we need
to keep having these conversations, and let's not
belittle this talk. This this itself is. This
is a type of dhikr of Allah just
like reading the Quran and praying and things
like that. Those are important also. This is
also something that has to happen in tandem
with them, which is that we have to
have these conversations and we have to recall
the Haqq and make it well up inside
the hearts
of the people. Afterward,
put the the the the solution in the
hand of the person who has the problem,
sometimes. But if the heart is not straight,
what are
we
gonna
do?
Make this the first of many other
discussions and conversations
and speech.
You Sheikh Hamza you said, right? It starts
with talk, talk isn't cheap.
If you're willing to do something about it.
Right. And then, and at least try to
do something about it. And we forget, we
can't forget that the greatest miracle of the
prophet was actually Kalam
ullah. Our whole deen is based on the
speech,
the speech of Allah. SubhanAllah. So,
speeches and discussion is necessary. Allah make it
easy for us Yeah. Yeah.
So, with
that,
perhaps we should come to a close until
the next time. Yeah. Inshallah. And,
should we close with a dua, inshallah? Inshallah,
there's a narration in the rial de salihin
that this is the dua that the messenger
Allah, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam,
that when a gathering would would break up,
he would make this dua. InshaAllah, whoever's listening
to the recording also can say amen InshaAllah.
Hopefully,
for,
how does the du'a again begin?
Yeah. Yeah. Allah give us our provision.
In our provision, enough of your fear that
it will be a barrier between us and
between your disobedience.
And give us as our provision enough of
your,
obedience that it will be able to carry
us, into your Jannah,
and give us enough in our provision certainty
in this deen,
that will carry us through the afflictions and
the tribulations of this dunya. You Allah, give
us the enjoyment and the use of our
our our sight and our hearing and all
of our faculties,
as long as we're here in this world,
as long as we have life.
Oh, Allah, don't make this material world the
greatest of our, concerns.
Don't put our tribulation and our trials and
our deen, and don't make this material world
the greatest of our concerns or the limit
of our understanding.
Don't subjugate us to, an enemy that has,
no fear of you with regards to our
affair and has no mercy over us. Yeah,
Allah. All the things that we talked about,
yeah, Allah, forgive us for our participation in
the bad of them and reward us for
our our our desire and our hope and
our willingness to work to to solve them.
You Allah, give us a being able to
work towards solving them. And whoever hears,
these words and is inspired, give them as
well help in order to be able to
solve these things and make the world a
better place. And, give us enough of this
this this noble struggle and effort
that, when we meet you, that you're proud
of us and that that that that the
people of Omar are proud of us on
that day and that that that that protect
us from ever being those people slacked off
from the work of the deen to the
point where the prophets and the the the
righteous and the the scholars and the people
of the Ummah on the day of judgement
curse us for having blown a good opportunity
to do something better. You Allah, this whole
world is so broken and you're the only
one who can fix it. You Allah, fix
it from your father and from your grace
and from your generosity and honor us by
using us in that process.