The Mothers Who Stop Fathers Seeing Their Children A. Raidhan & Sh. Y. Hanafi
Hamza Tzortzis – Weaponising Love
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the issue of "war against Muslims" and the need for children to have access to both parents. They also touch on the "star for Muslims" movement and the challenges faced by Muslim men in court. The speakers emphasize the importance of addressing negative emotions and the need for control and cooperation in addressing them. They also discuss the difficulty of fightting against Islam's control and the importance of creating awareness and positive relationships between individuals to avoid violence. They stress the need for legal agreements to protect people's privacy and emphasize the importance of creating a consent order to avoid violent behavior.
AI: Summary ©
And welcome to this conversation is a serious conversation. And it's really about the weaponization of children, against fathers. It's a war against Muslim fathers. And unfortunately, because of breakup because of divorce, what has happened is that many mothers, what they do is they weaponize their children against fathers. And the reason we need to speak about this, is because it is such a serious issue, because one of the most important things in Islam is to preserve the family, even if there's been a divorce or a breakup, it's important that children have access to both parents, it's very important for the social, spiritual, intellectual well being of children to have a very
positive and flourishing relationship with both parents, with their mothers and with their fathers. But unfortunately, and this is increasing, there is a kind of pandemic of women that are now weaponizing unjustly and on Islamically, going against the commands of Allah subhanho wa Taala what they're doing, they're weaponizing their children against fathers in an unjust way. And I want everyone to understand and realize this has nothing to do with the so called Gender Wars, there are Muslim sisters that are supporting this cause the cause that children have to have access to both parents. This is not about Muslim men versus Muslim women. This is about justice. It's about
following the commands of Allah subhanaw taala, preserving the social model of Islam, in other words, that it's family centric, that shouldn't have to have access to both parents. And we have with us today, Amador Aidan from the Muslim father support forum. And we have Chef Yasser al Hanafi, who obviously, you know, very well, he's been on this channel a few times Alhamdulillah. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to allow brother Akhmed, he's from the Muslim father port for him to introduce himself and first to start talking about what is FSF? What is the Muslim father support forum and what do they do? And then we're going to have a conversation concerning some, you know,
horrific scenarios and examples and experiences and
others, and we're going to ask the chef as well and Akhmed what is the solution? What are the solutions? What does Islam say about this? So I've met disaster for coming.
Islamic, everybody does that Allah for having us on your platform, Inshallah, we can spread some good knowledge today for the ummah.
So my name is Ahmed ridin, part of Muslim father support forum, we are an organization that has come together, we're all fathers that have been through it, in that we've lost access to our children, and we've had to go courts to fight for our kids.
And so what the way we started was, like myself, so I went through my situation in 2010, for five years, and I'm like, everything was good. And in 2015, I was to get, I got married again. And that's when the trouble started, I got the standard will start to see the pattern now. So there's a pattern of false allegations of *, child abuse and or various heinous things. And basically, it was all to get my property that was the that was what was really the what, what the person was after.
So anyway, I gave that up, and all that.
And it left a sour taste in my mouth.
So I started to help out in other forums, online and Facebook and various places, just helping other people out who are going through this situation. Over that time, I started to notice that more and more Muslim men will come in. And what for the Muslim father, it's far worse than the non Muslim Father, we get the same allegations as a non Muslim father, but we also get the religious allegations thrown at us. So we're having to deal with
sort of both sets of allegations.
And from that, sort of the white audience, the non Muslim audience didn't understand that aspect of it. And a lot of these brothers that are dude, they don't speak English properly, because they've come from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, from the Arab world.
So you know, and they can't articulate themselves in the plus the non Muslim audience don't and doesn't understand our way of life.
So I realized that, you know, we need to create something
to help our brothers. So in October 2020, we started off competing for the support forum, and we started off with four people. Now, to show you how much growth is coming to two and a half years. Right now, on our Facebook, we've got about 600 people that have joined up a seeking help and with the situations that we've got a WhatsApp group which has over 270 people in it, and I'm like everyday it's quite vibrant.
in there, you know, people discussing many topics. And through that, I think we've helped easily over 100 brothers get back with their children through the family court system, what we do is we just help brothers, we can try to guide them, because one of the biggest limitations we have is the financial aspect of it. On average, a Muslim father or just a father will have to spend
about 15,000 pounds, that's the average, that's if it's a bog standard basic case start to end. If it gets more involved in that, and it prolongs and he goes on and on. We've had one brother had to sell his house to pay solicitor fees. So you know, the financial extortion that kind of goes on. So we've come together, we've got all the bits of knowledge, we've all been through the system.
And hello, I've been we've been able to get some McKenzie brothers with us as well. So you don't always have to have you use lawyers, you can use McKenzie friends that have knowledge to help you guide you through this. So we kind of built this, this collective, and hamdullah, you know, through that we've got, like I said, over 100 Fathers back with their children, and the knowledge is growing and growing, and where we're doing good from that perspective. So that's the Muslim father's support forum, in a nutshell.
Okay, so I've seen your website and your website says that you've had like over 1000 cases or so. And this is a huge number. I've also spoken from what I remember, had a conversation with a scholar from the Islamic Council of Europe. And this seems to be
a pandemic, if you like, it's a recurring experience for many Muslim fathers who have, you know, the relationship has broken down with the wives or ex wives. And, you know, for some reason, the children now have been used as a weapon against them awesome fathers. Now, from your experience,
is this justified? Do these Muslim men do the most Muslim mothers? Do they have some kind of justification? Or from your experience? Is it the case that they've just simply out of bitterness or out of, you know, injustice, or whatever the case may be, they've just basically wanted to weaponize the children. Because, you know, one would argue, you know, just to not to play devil's advocate, but to try and be as balanced as possible. One would argue, well, maybe this has happened in some cases, because the Muslim men are dangerous, or they shouldn't be interacting with the tuner for some reason, what what is your experience with all of these cases that you dealt with, that you've
dealt with? And maybe you could give us some kind of experiences of somebody have to mention names, of course, in terms of how they've reacted and what the real life scenario has been, like, what has really happened and how they've reacted and, and what kind of injustice has happened. So how would you respond to these these these points? Well, the thing is, so there's Oh, well, every time Muslim father's Muslim men speak up about these issues, we always hit the water Valtteri. What about female abuse? I'd like to first point out that when women speak about their abuse, when we speak about women's issues, nobody ever says what about male abuse, I just like to say like, in 2020 700,000,
men reported domestic abuse
to the police, that's on the Office of National Statistics. So you know, you can see, it's, for every three allegations of domestic abuse, one out of the three is a man that had been the women. So you can see that it is quite spread.
motivations for this is really complex human relationships are complex, you know, and to pick out to say, is this, look, you know, we've got to talk about people are making poor choices, you know, we're not, we're not making the right choices, when we're picking our partners, a lot of us, for men, we go in our eyes, the women have their criteria, whatever that is. But we're not ready looking at this, this person can compatible. So now what you have is this situation where you've got two people that just don't gel together for whatever reason it is, I'm simplifying it, it's a lot more complex than that. But you know, we'll keep it simple for this purpose.
Now, first of all, these people shouldn't be together, they try to park they're not allowed to, you know, because of all the things that go around it, especially when there's children involved, you'll find that a lot more men will stick around with
sort of toxic relationships, dealing with toxic behavior, because they don't want to be the children because they know that once I leave this house, or once I once she leaves the children, I'll never get to see him again. That is gonna be very difficult for me to see my children. So the men stick it out. But the women, you know, have no issues with it. Because essentially, the biggest problem we have is we have a system that's exploitable
in that what that does, it rewards poor behavior. I'll give examples of that in that so if you had a person that was didn't want wanting to hurt the other person, say I
Jealousy, revenge.
So they turned to these beings to go through an average court case, you're looking at about a year and a half, if not longer.
You know, we've got some brothers that are that are there, but two plus years fighting to their kids. So you can see now imagine for two years not seeing you that these children that you love,
that have that are from you.
They the emotional
breakdown of that of that brother is actually just heartbreaking to see, you know, I often get calls with them, basically, and I can't take it, I feel like we're just better off ending it right now. And you're like, No, no, we have to talk them down. Even now, I've heard a couple of brothers, Muslim Brothers, you know, there's quite rife in the non Muslim community, in anonymously, well, generally 12 men a day are dying from suicide, and six out of those 12, you know that the same that is to do with family, family matters.
Now, we're getting mostly men that are turning to these things, because of the pressure, the pain is just so much, it's unbearable. Now, you know, so we have a system that facilitates this. Not only that, also, one thing that people don't realize is child maintenance. So the way the word child maintenance is calculated, is booked on by the amount of nights that you have. So essentially, if the father has less nights, he has to pay more. Now, for those that are financially motivated in this, and there are those systems that do do it that way, people will say, No, no, this, they'll always cover it up. But the truth of it is financial, revenge and control. They're the three things
that will kind of motivate people down this particular path.
And we need to acknowledge that, because I can't I don't understand that you're saying that this man is abusive, but yet you want to, and he's abused you in this house. He's abused to you in this house, but yet you're going to court to steal this house from him, even though he's paid for everything, whilst you were married. On the show, you're you're saying it's your duty to provide for a house, pay the bills, all these things. He's done that, but then when it comes to the, when it comes up to this breakdown, all of a sudden is law of the land over is stabbing values.
And these are kind of things we see quite regular. So now you're saying that here he is, he's abused me in this house, but yet you want that house?
Then on top of it, or do you want him to make that monthly pay for his children, that you're not letting him see.
But it's not about money, you know, and then all that he's got, he's got remarried now. Oh, let me kick something off here.
And you know, people just need to be ready to really wake up and smell the coffee here. There's a truth to this. Yes, I'm not saying that, that there are men that haven't been abusive, but like I said, in relationships, it's difficult. It's a complex situation.
Many things go on, there's lots of things family society, you know, even as you know, as opposed to men, we tend to get married young. Especially I come from the Gujrati sub Indian continent.
Community. And when I first got married, I was about 24 years old. At that age, I was no way equipped to deal with marriage, even though Yeah, it was something that was unknown, all these things, but I was not equipped to deal with with that. And, you know, in sometimes, you know, certain situations, maybe I did react, shouted, scream, dislike the other, that was there. But when you're in a, in a toxic environment, you yourself become toxic, because we've never had the leadership in this thing. So But then, if men are in a certain environment, they become toxic, but then if you put them in other environments are not toxic, or these men then toxic? That's a question
that
the thing that we need to make women need to make a distinction between the relationship between the husband and the wife, or the man and his ex wife. And now that may be a toxic relationship, there may be blame on both sides, or just one side. And sometimes it's from the man sometimes from the woman, sometimes from both. But I think what we should focus on this, the topic of today is, well, you know, the children are somewhat separate to that into a certain degree, because the relationship between the husband wife, or the husband and ex wife can be can break down. But that doesn't now mean that we should be irresponsible, immature and unjust and now prevent a flourishing and positive
relationship between the children, the mother and the children, the Father. So I think it's very important for us to focus on that, you know, when we start pointing the fingers and start saying it's the blame game, and it's about the man woman relationship. Well, that's over now. We need to focus on the children. So from this perspective, with from the perspective of the Muslim father support forum, give me some examples or some real life examples that you've dealt with, that maybe people could realize how severe this issue is, when you know a woman has weaponized her children against you know her ex husband, or weaponize the children or
against the father and and what does it lead to? Like? What are what are the experiences that you have faced? Well, I mean, I'll speak from my personal experience, I've, from the first marriage, I've got two children, a boy and a girl.
And such poison was fed into him that I don't still see him now. And they literally live about four or five miles away from me.
And what people need to understand is that it's like a glass vase.
The relationship between a parent and child is like a glass vase. Once you smash it and break it, you can try and put it back together again. But it's never going to have the same same integrity to it.
And then you're trying to repair these things, but it's just a very difficult battle, especially when the poison has been so, so ingrained into the children.
So you know, and it's a very difficult road to recover.
And we see this we're really fathers. So it says, it's been a two year battle. Now, in that time, kids grow up, children become they grow a lot quicker, when they're young. So wait, the point you leave them at and the point you meet them at this bit. So it's different. It's like meeting a new person. I, myself, I met my son, he at this point, he was about 21 years old, I met him down at the hospital.
And that's the first time I've seen him after he was 14, when I last saw him, spoken to him. I went to the hospital see him. And at this point, He's big. He's a he's a man. Now he's six foot four. And I'm talking to him, and I realized that, that this person is a stranger to me now.
How do I how do I connect with him? Because he now even I'm a stranger to him, because I've changed his role in that time. But not as much as him obviously. But you know, and it was just so hard talking to him. And it just felt like, how am I supposed to reconcile this, I don't have the capacity for it. But we just left it there for my daughter I've not seen and when that time comes when we get to speak again, insha Allah, you know, that we can, we can find, you know, that commonality, reconcile, but this is this difficulty, people don't realize this. So you're going through the Battle of a court, it takes such a long time, then you've got this disconnects that
you've got to try and come over. Now, this is why I always advise for those that especially when the children are young, that's the time to really go in and fight hard. Because when they're young, they're quite still quite simple. But when they become into adulthood, it's a lot more complex. You know, the kinds of things we see is basically a lot of control. And I just want to state this as well that people may think that oh, it's it's not practicing sisters, that are doing this two brothers, the amount of sisters that we have that are Altimas, doing this two brothers, you know, I've got one brother, you know,
his parents are allowed to see the children, because they will read the Quran out loud.
Because it was so loud, that it was affecting the children. This is an ally, my mother came in this in court.
This is the level of of type of behavior we see, we see things like, oh, you know, the,
the women that were wearing hijabs in the clubs before they get married. It's the standard they set them when they're going into court. It's like, oh, here, he forced me. But you were doing this at your father's house. One case we had where the woman's claiming that, oh, he forced segregation in our house. So when men came to have to sit in separate rooms to the women, but these are the very same things that are happening in your house, which is Islam. And what they do is they twist this. And we've got to understand this. And this is something that people really need to understand that these courts are white people, they understand why through a white lens, or a non Muslim lens, we'll
call it and there is a bias. They don't understand polygamy, they don't understand that the man, you know, having an authority. And they absolutely, you know, totally and utterly believe that our religion oppresses women. And we're we continue that by us making our women cover themselves and all these things is an oppression. And they they've been the white saviors are there to protect these women's. And from that, you see the rulings father can't see. Father can't see the child for another three years. And there's a bar in order for the father to make an application to see the children. Yeah, the thing is, though,
the issue is this is that even if the Muslim mother feels that she has a right to see those things in a secular court, which by the sounds of if she doesn't, it gives her no right to now weaponize the children and prevent the children from having a positive and flourishing relationship with their fathers. So it seems to be from someone
I'm gathering and from, you know, the conversations I've had with people outside of this, you know, recording that it seems to me that
there's a lot of Muslim sisters, for many reasons because of control finances and power maybe and maybe maybe even being vengeful or, or jealous that those negative emotions, it has expressed itself to the degree that they now will lie. Use the law in order to, you know, enact that event that revenge and that kind of jealousy and that hatred, and literally go against the commands of Allah go against Islamic ethics and prevent children from seeing the Father. So in the in the over 1000 cases you've had at MF S F.
What percentage? Is it? Do you think that it's based been based on lies and revenge and control what you missed?
Quite honestly, I'd say it's about 70%. On what I'd say what I'd say here, in fact, the thing is that even if there was conflict between the two parties, what they do they exploit it. I want to give an example here of this.
So one sister,
okay, she was an animal, I'm not picking on animals. But this just just to give you a bit of a narrative, she called her ex husband, right at the time, he was still she was still a husband, and says, look, it's your duty, to provide for me to give you
a roof over my head, give me my own kitchen, and all these Islamic things that she put forward across.
Then he was the brother was quite knowledgeable, as well. So he reports back to her saying, Well, hold on a second. But it's unusual to utter a baby, which is Islamic teaching. So as he's saying these things to her, she starts recording him
that she takes this as evidence in court. So there's part truth to it, but there's manipulation behind there as well. This is what we're seeing,
you know, and what they're claiming is like, oh, you know, this man's danger to me, he's gonna murder me. And he's gonna take the kids off to Pakistan, India, bla, bla, bla, despite the fact that all his family live in England, and all these things, they use every single narrative, even when you get when the brothers go to, to help to Muslim based institutions for help, like the sharia councils, or to Imams, and scholars, the scholars go speak to these women, these women then go make a report in court saying that they're, He's harassing me, he's getting the local community to force me into reconciling, or into letting him see the children.
So these are the kinds of things that happen, that we see day in, day out, the first piece of advice to Brothers is stop contact. Let's press pause on that. And let's understand exactly what's going on. Because everything you do, can be twisted and turned. And that's what's really going on. There's a truth, but it's all been twisted. And that's what these people need to recognize. Every time we hear these stories, even now, as men, we hear stories of our sisters, we straightaway or cyber sisters ahead of them. And we don't know the total story. We don't know the truth. But we jump in, and we were straight away. And we're getting this from everywhere. We're getting this from even from
Muslims themselves. An example of this is if you see a sister post up something about domestic abuse, you'll see everybody both men and women, both genders. But this is haram, the support this this this this, right? If a man were to put something up, you guarantee that you'll get people from from the community see, what about female to female domestic abuse, they do the most of it. They don't deal with the matter at hand. And the thing is, the people that are suffering out of this brother Hamza is the children.
The children are breaking ties with their, with their families. And I'll let Shakespeare on this because what does that mean, when children are breaking ties with their parents? What are the repercussions, especially if they become adults? And heaven forbid, you know, Allah forbid, that, that the parent were to pass away. Because not only is it one point I just would like to make. It's not just the father that's missing out. This the grandmother, the grandfather, the uncles, the aunts, the cousins, that the whole, they should behind that one person, all that is being cut out as well.
So they're cutting ties with that whole nation, or that whole paternal family. What are the ramifications of that? Yes. And this is why we have to be just you know, this is not a gender war, of course, because I assume there are many, many sisters who are supporting MSF. And this is not about you know, Muslim men versus Muslim women. This is about we should all follow Islamic ethics. We are Muslim and Muslim is someone who has a way of being that reciting the commands of Allah subhanho wa Taala to the will of Allah says we need to remind him
All of the community in this context, specifically the Muslim mothers that you have to obey Allah. And if that is not enough, and then I want to cite some statistics, because take USA context. Now we have to realize that when fathers are missing from, you know, especially boys lives, right, according to the US Department of Health, and I think it's also part of the census is that 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. 63% of suicides are from fatherless homes. You also have 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes. 80% of rapists who show behavior disorders come from
fatherless homes. And the National Principals Association report says that 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes from a UK perspective. According to the prison reform trust, 2013 76% of young men in prison in England and Wales had absent fathers or will fight or basically, the fathers went around. And so if Muslim, you know, mothers are doing this deliberately out of you know, financial reasons, maybe jealousy or being vengeful, whatever the case may be, if they don't have the taqwa, the God consciousness to be just and to follow the ethics and to follow the commands of Allah. Then just look at the statistics. This is what you are actually damaging your children.
It's a severe, severe issue. So check I want to bring you here. What does Islam say about this? Are Are we allowed how women are Muslim women mothers are allowed to weaponize the children in this way.
Some of you may not know him, but haven't heard of it. I mean, what we're doing with Turkey was salatu salam ala Rasulillah. Below me, yo, yo savage.
Is that Kamala Hadimba, the Ahmed, and Austar the Hamza, I think this is a very important topic, well overdue.
In my last 12 or 13 years of doing employment,
I've seen countless of fathers suffering in silence.
And live with Ahmed pointed out correctly, as soon as you mentioned, the volume and the patient that is taking place on them.
What about the women rights? What about the domestic violence you get shut down? It's difficult even talking about this subject. I want to reiterate, start Hamlet said in the beginning and also now that this is not about Muslim men versus Muslim women, this this is a false dichotomy.
This is about other justice. And the other man see if there's one word that can encapsulate the entire teachings of Islam, what is that one word? They say it justice and this is why it is Juma. Every Hadith on Juma they recite the verse in Allahu
Allah instructs us to be just
so this is very important. The Quran Surya you are living in Ermanno kunafa Wamena the law he shahada it will test all believers. Stand up right for Allah bearing witness with Justice will allow you to remain a commissioner on a balmy and this is exactly what's happening in a lot of these cases. Not let not the enemy enmity or hatred of people provoke you to be unjust. This is all unjust volum AR do be just who accountability Taqwa. This is more closer to piety and Taqwa What duckula Fie Allah in the law. Have you remember that Milan indeed Allah is well aware of what you do. So, going back to the question of whether this is justified, let me
categorically state a principle of the fuqaha
there are certain things which are impure, intrinsically, and they are haram for example, I can see swine pig
or llama in Zealand for in the hood, it's Allah subhanho wa Taala mentioned the corporate entity of Finzi is impurity is an adjuster.
Likewise, we have hammered alcohol wine is haram. These things are not allowed in any circumstance.
However, there are certain cases where even these intrinsic haram things become permissible
when a person isn't is hungry or is thirsty and there's no other food or water there and the only thing that you can consume is wine or swine. Then it is permissible from editorial availability when I didn't fella is my idea you will not be sinful. So so things like alcohol, things like
you know pig, and for those who are from the South Asia you know, when we're young we don't even say the word pig we say P ag because they pick
it
So in pure, but even these things, there are certain circumstances where it becomes permissible. But if there are and disunity
especially amongst family members, and here we're talking about children in the Father, this is not permissible in any circumstance. any circumstance, I cannot think of any scenario where this is permissible, is absolutely haram. There is no justification. And this is with all due respect that are doing this, what they're doing, not only are they weaponizing their children,
using them as a weapon against their father. There are also I would argue this child abuse, they're abusing the children
as yes, this child abuse number two, I'm not a psychologist, but part of my undergraduate psychology, few modules I had children psychology, and psychologists argue and postulate, you know, with the considerable amount of assurance that children learn from observation. So you are actively teaching your child that you can also use your children in the future as weapons. This is a review. And I would also go and I would add, from a prophetic tradition, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said
the narration could be part of de la vida, Ahmed, that the Allahu Taala and Houma in a development for the man Buhari, the Prophet alayhi salat wa salam said, Reba, we're feeling a little worried that the pleasure of Allah isn't the pleasure of the father.
What's the hotter rub? And the displeasure of Allah isn't the displeasure of the Father. So what the mother here is doing, she's also potentially taking away the pleasure of Allah from the child by teaching them this, this this this hatred, and this disunity,
so I can't see any, there isn't a single scenario, which I can think of where the mother can yes, even if we take the most extreme scenario, and we accept bill Farber, Mohammed hypothetically, that the mother is oppressed, she's Maluma. And there are certain cases, yes, but the mother is oppressed, we're not denying this.
Even in that case, it is impermissible to use the children against the father.
And this is where, you know, humans, this is a this is like a reductionist approach, where we reduce humans only to intellect. A significant part of humans is emotions. And unfortunately, in these cases is emotions that are taking the better of the women. They're using the emotion, they hatred towards the man, whatever the reason is, we have to understand is that the feud and the conflict is only between the man and the woman. And that's how it should it should not be a transitive and trunk restaurant to the children. And, and SubhanAllah. I've seen cases because as an Imam, I have many men, even as we just recently, have had a case where
the father couldn't see the son. The son wants to see the father. Yes. The only time the son can see the Father is in the masjid when the child comes, and does study in the evening. madressa. So the father first approached me and he said, Milena, I haven't seen my son for six months or so. You know, the court case started. And can I come make the potential to see him? I said, by all means is your son, the Prophet alayhi salatu. Salam said and Omar look at you and your well belong to your father. Of course, you can see him.
So as soon as I give permission, numberings
things mucked up for Chris beautiful and I acid. Yes.
She says, Can I please tell you and ask you not to allow my husband to see my son?
So I said to her, who are you? So I said, are you gonna write into the system? If you're going to do this, you will be questioned on the Day of Judgment. You're taking away his right his view and conflict is with you not with the Son and the Son. He wanted to see the Father to you know, he was so hardcore.
So this is total volume is oppression, there is no other way to categorize this. And it's child abuse, like I said, is weaponizing the children is if the mother actually care about the children to stop doing this. If the mothers, they care about their own children that stopped doing this, why because they are internalizing bad habits that inculcating bad habits within them. And like I mentioned, skate is really scary. Just imagine your own child,
the most, you know, important and pivotal years of their life, where you need to bond with them and you need to connect with them. They are deprived from the enriched age where they don't recognize you Subhanallah Yeah, and it's
just logistics.
It's not sorry to apologize. It's a bit of a like, just to clarify something you said early there, you can't imagine any scenario, I'm assuming that you, you are referring to the scenario between the relation between the man and the woman, that there is no scenario between these two that you can refer to, to actually stop the children from seeing their father. But I'm just, I'm just trying to preempt what some people are going to be thinking now. What if the father now has extreme abuse to the children? Obviously, from an Islamic point of view, that's a different ethic. There's there are different solutions to that. And then obviously, you have to take care of the wealth of the
children, correct?
Yeah, I've got that's I mean, the those are extreme extrinsic reasons that will override this principle, for the well being.
We wanted to mention something here, which is very interesting, because some, some women sometimes say, you know, feminists incline is a patriarchal society. Yeah. But what's very interesting, when it comes to these issues, it's not a patriarchal society. In the UK, for example, you can't use now patriarchy, to say, look, it's because of the patriarchy it which is quite interesting, because some of these systems will be like, oh, you know, we all have our rights. And there's a patriarchal society, obviously, you know, the secular feminists, inclined sisters would say that, but it's very interesting when it comes to this is actually the other way around the structures and the secular
system. And the laws are in place that actually oppress the Muslim father, or fathers in general. And this is very, very important to highlight. The other thing I just quickly want to mention, from a solutions point of view, obviously, the main solution is if we had an Islamic environment with Islamic system, and Islamic justice, this will never happen and justice will be implemented in sha Allah. But from a practical point of view, where we are right now, what I want both you to comment on this. Let's start with Chef first, what are the solutions now socially in our community, and also spiritually, and you know, some of the advice that you can give to the father and the mother, what
what are some of the solutions that you think we can adopt?
So I think the basic triadic framework that the scholars give for any rectification is number one, it'll rock comprehending and being aware of the situation. I think, at this moment, many people don't know that fathers are suffering.
And because made because of biological reason, and you know, men don't want to be seen as oppressed. You know, a lot of fathers don't talk about this to their self insight. And the first thing is creating awareness. That's the first thing and this podcast that we're having a bit of a like a homage is a Hula, hula. And I think this is a very good initiative to bring in the awareness Joomla hotbar, having podcast maybe writing articles on this sofa. First thing is awareness. Once awareness is made, the second stage editor off is to acknowledge that this is a problem.
And I sent this to the fair minded and honest sisters. And like you said, to start, there are many sisters who accept this. There should also bring awareness because if women start talking about this, it will be more powerful.
If women also I'm not sure if Ahmed has any women in his organization for them, but if you have active women who speak about this and who give testimony about this, I think this will be powerful. So for you, the first thing is creating awareness number two is better off is accepting the problem, the problem and the number two, this SLR is a rectification
in terms of rectification. Bucha Ahmed says so this might be controversial.
Because it happened to me, actually, it's actually happened to me. I heard one side of the story. And then I heard the other side of the story, and I realize that with the woman is the oppressor here. And and so I wanted to intervene and, you know, be arbitrary and try to get this problem solved. And subhanAllah the police ran
it rang me and said, you know, this case is going on, and she just want you involved. And I was thinking, you know, strive to do good here, trying to save children. So when it comes to the legal side of things, I don't know, to be honest, I don't have any solution to that. I don't know what do we do that we can create awareness amongst ourselves. We can maybe even have small councils but the legal system he overrides everything, doesn't it? It overrides everything. When it comes to the legal system, even if you have on city council City Council can't do much. When the police are involved in the local authorities involved even the city council, their hands are tied. We can only
advise and give the cube but when it comes to implementation,
I don't know. Allah Allah.
Maybe what about
What about naming and shaming? I know that sounds I don't know if that's Islamic or not in this context, you're the chef. But maybe sometimes, you know, we spoke about this when it came to, you know, the inheritance issue.
You know, sometimes you just within the community, maybe you have to threaten naming and shaming, because you know, it, it creates a narrative. And sometimes, you know, that kind of social pressure usually works, right? Because we're social animals. Maybe that should be the case, because I know of a case as well, where one of the brothers, the his ex wife literally lied, and then she apologized. And it was such a severe lie that he ended up in a cell. Yeah. And she, she retracted, and she said, Oh, just lying, and I think it was to do with * po was it was a *, it was a * accusation. And it was totally fabricated. And I'm thinking to myself, what's going on here? I mean, we had the
case recently, you came out just a few days ago with this non Muslim woman, she lied about * and about Eleanor Williams. Yeah, it was. And you know, maybe that things like this coming out into the open, maybe will create that kind of social pressure. Now, obviously, we want to hide people's sins, and we don't want to expose people. But is there a room for that check? Maybe sometimes saying, Look, you know, there's a few warnings here. And if you carry on, there's a wider muscle, right? There's a bigger benefit here than the harm. Maybe we have to start naming and shaming, maybe not naming shaming specific individuals. But talking about these stories. I don't know, is there a case
for that show? I think there is the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam he would when he would see a certain certain property within society, you would get up and use a marble comb, you know, what is wrong with these people? So I think if we keep the genetic to the sense, where we're not individually saying so and so rather than saying that this community, or this area or these families, for example, I think definitely there is a case for that. And that's clearly established from a hadith where the Prophet alayhi salam would mentioned, like society, people, group of people. And I think even that is enough, especially if the voice is being raised in a local mosque, where
more or less everybody knows one another.
I think that sort of pressure, can inshallah hinder this sort of volume.
I met What do you think the solutions are from the experience that you've had with MF S F?
Well, I just listen with intent from with what Sheikh was saying, and unlike, you know, really good knowledge. I do feel though there is room for with like sharia councils or Islamic establishments that do intervene, they can entwine an element of court in there. Let me give an example. Let's just say you got the two parties sheiks
got the agreement, that right, you come to an agreement that what you're going to do is you're going to allow father to see the kids every three days a week
on this kind of rotor, and that whatever the agreement is on either strictly half, half, and or everything, all these things, what you can do then is create something called a consent order. And with that,
you can send to
the court of court.
And what that does, then both parties have this legal document, or standard to go by.
And it's it protects both them and both parties know exactly what they have to live up to. And I think this is where like the sharia councils and Islamic institutions need to get tooled up and get their knowledge and get people to these kinds of levels of agreements. Because what that does, it takes things further because if you can show that, look, there was an agreement here, and things have gone way since after that, straightaway, you know it the narrative changes in court. And I think we these are the kinds of things we need to employ.
Naming and shaming is an interesting one. I feel like personally, right now because things are just so bad because as you stated with the Hamza, this is a pandemic. And brothers are absolutely getting crushed. There's no word of a lie here. You know, we're actually getting crushed we need something a bit to the extreme to happen just stop putting people to push to push back this thing because we've been avalanche by these cases. Every week. We're getting two three more brothers coming through brother this brother that brother been fighting for three years to see my kids brother, you know, feeling I feel like ending it all because I can't see my kids and all these things that you know I'm
being financially extorted that I don't have the money to fight in this together. So you know there's a big avalanche that we need to push that back and we don't have the means yet to push back on that you shall love we will do a log give us that that that capacity. But we need to start getting that society are the Muslim society to start to
Getting on this subject and start saying, No, we're not going to tolerate this, because I'd like to say this to you, and you build on something you said, which is also true that this does not only affect brothers, there are a few women, I'd say 90 97% is men, there are 3% of women that suffer this sort of level of abuse as well, in losing access to their children.
So, so you know, so anybody that does, this is committing a crime
in our community, so we as a community, because remember, this was that one person behind them is a mother, a father, a brother, a sister, a cousin, there's a whole level of people behind them that are supporting them in this act. But we as a society, as a community, turn our backs on these people to say no, until you rectify this, we are not going to tolerate this. I think this is something similar tells watching something about the Hasidic Jewish community.
And when this happens in their community, this is a level of what they go through, even the women themselves. Don't talk to the woman that does this. You know, and that's why it's not as common in their community does happen. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it's not as common. It's not as widespread. In US. It's widespread, because the system is exploitable, and it's been exploited. And also take this opportunity to speak to the sisters directly. Please, sisters, avoid the courts, seek out help come if you're having trouble with the Father, come speak to us at MFSA. SF, go speak to the olema. Let's try and figure this out through means of mediation. And let let let this be the
ticket to your Jahannam let this be more than a ticket to to Jana, you know, and that's what you're faced with. That's what you're actually faced with here. So, you know, let's try and do this the right way where everybody wins, where you come out of this relationship where he comes out the relationship, but the children have the love of both parents. And if you can achieve that Hamdulillah I think we as a community as a society, not only will we be better, but then the environment, the country that we live in will become better as well for it.
Yeah, that's actually very beautiful, very balanced. And, you know, I, I didn't want to come across that, you know, we should specifically name and shame it was a suggestion. But as the check said, This is not of the sooner we should stick to generalities. But I do get your kind of sentiment that maybe we have to try and push the boundaries as much as possible. But I think if we stick to the Sunnah, we create that awareness, we create that kind of social pressure amongst our communities that, you know, we are an upright community that we obey Allah, and that we have to realize whatever has happened between the mother and the father, the husband and the wife, or the ex husband and the
ex wife, this should not now spill over to the children, children, you know, we have a huge responsibility to ensure that the children have the mother and the father to have very positive relationships. And this is extremely important. All of this really comes down to you know, your state of heart, your taqwa, you know, are you are you do you want to surrender to Allah? Are you, you know, someone who considers yourself as someone who is submitting to Allah, if that's the case, and let's submit to Allah, what does Allah say about these situations, irrespective of the relation between the mother and the father, we have to focus on the children and to ensure that the children
have positive and flourishing and Islamic relationships with both parents, because at the end of the day, you know, our job as parents is to take our children to gender to help them to get to Jannah. And this is so sometimes
parents, we think, you know, our kids must have a, you know, a great job and a big car and a big house and a good wife. Yeah, that's all good. But essentially, ultimately, the greatest triumph, Allah says, is to enter paradise to have a good life, and to have an eternal good life. And if we now break the relationship for an Islamic reasons, you know, between the children and the mother, and in this case, the father, then, you know, it's, we're making it harder for them to have a good life and even harder and harder for them to have the greatest triumph which is Jana, because when you look at the social statistics, you see that you know, it doesn't it impacts on the life on the
children a very, very negative, negative, negative way. So, in terms of final thoughts, brother achmad,
what would you like to say into the how people could get in touch with you, how you can support fathers who are going through this similar situation and any closing closing remarks that you have?
Well, I'd like to start off with just addressing what you just said there. That basically you can pray five times a day. You can fast gives a car to all those things that make you right. But the moment of test Is this Islam that's behind closed doors, that Islam that people don't see. And this is one of those and how you conduct yourself in these
matters. It says a lot about you how true your deen higher your belief is. And you know, and I think that what you stated they're ready to rings out
to get in touch with us, you know for for any brother. If you've even historically or you're currently going through it, we want to know about you, we want you to come join us come to the Brotherhood, because together we're stronger. So come find us at MF SF, or just do a search for Muslim father support forum on Twitter, on Instagram or on Facebook. Come join us there inshallah. Whoo. You know, let's join together. And let's get louder about this. And let's try and turn the community to to move away from this this activity.
But, you know, just, again, take this opportunity for you, Brother hands off at picking this subject up because a lot of people don't want to talk about these subjects. We've, you know, we've been to Masjid and we just want to put up a poster to let brothers know. But, you know, unfortunately, that there's many that want to shy away from it. Because they say oh, we don't want to disturb the sisters, but this is to help the ummah. What we're trying to do is to help the OMA. Yeah, to be honest, it doesn't matter what people say, whether it's brothers or sisters, at the end of the day, we're here to worship online to obey Allah. And if there's an injustice, then we have to try and
solve that problem. And I think it's very important for us to raise our voices. And we do it for issues concerning women, if there's any injustice against women and injustice against men. And this is what we're about this is our public work, and we should raise these issues for sure. You know, I would also just add to what you're saying as well. You know, what we should ask the sisters support the Muslim father support forum as well, right. So if any sisters come to, you know, obviously, you're going to be accepting of the sisters. Absolutely.
Just this week, I've helped a sister that I know, she's in court, she's got a situation with her ex partner. And I said to her sister, I'm willing to help you. So long as the children have seen the Father and she goes, brother, I don't want I'm not trying to stop the father from seeing the children. He says that the Father has certain habits that need to be managed.
And I said, that's fair enough. So we tabled and put forward a solution in court because it was the father that applied to court.
You know, but I, you know, anybody that comes to us, even if they're Muslim or non Muslim, if they were to want to get back and rebuild their relationship with their kids, or that they were, you know, that nobody's stopping a child from seeing the other parent. We're for you. Because we believe we believe that a child needs both parents is not gonna hurt bro. This is amazing. I actually I don't know if this is correct or not, but I could actually see the the authenticity and the genuine actually pain in your voice and your and in your face. You know, may Allah make it easy for you this is this is a struggle, you're probably absorbing all of the kind of the emotional pain for many
fathers. I spoke to someone just a few days ago, you said that some of the brothers that you spoke to have been suicidal, something have committed suicide, or they've attempted suicide. And this is a serious issue. And my advice to the brothers and the sisters, just be conscious of Allah subhanho wa Taala this life is the limited life don't play with your aka sisters don't play with your AKA, whatever has happened between you and the husband. You know, peep whoever's right or wrong in that situation is almost irrelevant when it comes to the children. Because you can't now let that spill over to the children. It's a great injustice of the checks that is child abuse. And it just damages
our society. And we have to realize that you know, today's neoliberal society, the postmodern discourse that is now permeating our societies is trying to remove all the moral hierarchies that are important and essential for a flourishing community. And Islam is the only kind of religion or worldview left to preserve these essential more hierarchies. Don't do the job of the Neo liberals don't do the job of the postmodernist I want to remove these hierarchies to destroy the kind of social well being of our community. So it's very, very important and don't risk your Akira you know, mela make easy bro does aka Hey, we'll have you again again in the future.
Maybe to support you with fundraising or anything that you need
at your service, and not everyone's service for any good and Shawn and that's the whole point. And
for those people that do want to donate, just come see us at m m fsf.uk. Or reach out to us Inshallah, we can always do with the funding, you know, unfortunately, our demographic doesn't have the most money because we're getting the getting fleeced by the CMS courts and everything in a contact centers. We've spoken about but
the link in the description below okay, I'll put the link to the website and the Donate link in the in the description below. You've been very balanced bro May Allah bless you exactly for your time. And salam ala Curatola Katt Williams
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