Abdal Hakim Murad – Conscientious Pilgrim

Abdal Hakim Murad
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AI: Summary ©

The hedge series describes a group of individuals gathering in the hudge and discussing the importance of unity and the one in their daily lives. The series touches on the theme of bringing people together to create a community and the influence of the G-pointings on the symbol of the gods and the sacred experience. The hedge provides a naturalistic experience that people can experience while traveling, and is a place where people can do things that they
the naturalists want to do without the traditional hedge or traditional hedge. The hedge is a place where people can connect with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature and be in touch with nature

AI: Summary ©

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			From God we come and to God do we
return.
		
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			So much of Muslim life revolves
around circles, the circles of
		
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			celestial orbits which determine
our prior times, the circles of
		
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			the lunar calendar, the circle of
Toba, of falling into error,
		
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			trying, falling and trying again,
		
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			and the circles of our bodily
lives formed by an earthen clay,
		
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			walking upon the earth for a time
and then returning to the earth to
		
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			furnish new life. So much of human
history has involved respecting
		
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			and honoring these interconnected
circles of living and returning
		
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			for 1000s of centuries in human
history, our built spaces,
		
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			material objects, and even
understandings of ourselves
		
00:00:52 --> 00:00:58
			involved a recognition of
returning first to the ground, and
		
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			then back to God.
		
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			It's hard for me as a modern, to
even imagine that the objects I
		
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			use in my daily life, my computer,
my phone, my clothing, even my
		
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			pen, so few of those objects could
go back into the ground. Instead,
		
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			they will outlive me by centuries.
		
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			Like so many aspects of modern
life, the hedge has unfortunately
		
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			become another instance where
human activity causes detrimental
		
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			impact upon our environment. From
the carbon footprint of air travel
		
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			to the jaw dropping amount of
plastic used and discarded during
		
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			the Hajj itself. Our pilgrimage to
the holy cities has become merely
		
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			another instance where the lack of
wisdom, foresight and
		
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			sustainability at the heart of
modern progress narratives makes
		
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			itself so painfully visible. If
the hedge is a return like no
		
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			other, then surely, we can imagine
a 21st century hedge in which we
		
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			honor and safeguard our tradition,
and the natural world.
		
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			In this final episode of our hedge
series, we come full circle to
		
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			imagine a hedge of the future,
which is ennobled by a return to
		
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			wholeness and to the generous
sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad
		
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			peace be upon him. I'm joined
today by Sheikh Abdullah Heike
		
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			Murad, who shares his
recollections as a * and helps
		
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			us imagine what Hajj can be going
forward if we all become not just
		
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			conscious, but conscientious
pilgrims.
		
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			Abdul Hakim Murad is the dean of
the Cambridge Muslim College and
		
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			the Sheikh Zayed lecturer of
Islamic Studies in the Faculty of
		
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			divinity at Cambridge University.
Che have the hikkim this podcast
		
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			has focused on the theme of
gathering in the hudge through
		
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			many lenses of the various rituals
and moments in the hajj, as well
		
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			as the more macro cosmology of
sacred places and secret time. And
		
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			since this is the last episode,
can you give us your unique
		
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			perspective on the Hajj as a truly
conscious gathering of humanity?
		
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			Well, the Hajj really represents
the principle of unity and
		
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			multiplicity. Everybody goes for
the one, which is what the Tobia
		
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			is about the love bake a love of
Mother bakers about the
		
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			uncompromising unity of nature of
the Abrahamic, divine. But at the
		
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			same time, of course, there is the
almost indefinite and quite
		
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			dazzling plurality of human
beings. The tension between the
		
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			two so beautifully articulated by
the sanctuary itself with the
		
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			Kaaba symbolizing the SSAT the
eternal unknowability, the Veiled
		
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			pneus of the one at the center,
		
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			categorically unique, but then
around it, you've got 2 million
		
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			people, 3 million people, every
conceivable language,
		
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			the genders everything is present.
So you have this kind of
		
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			juxtaposition, this binary of the
one and the many. And the
		
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			gathering part of it, of course,
is it's supposed to be a crowd.
		
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			That's what the word a father
means. And a father is the word
		
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			that the author and itself use is
a photon in artifact when you come
		
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			in a crowd from artifact, it's a
it's a collective exercise. And
		
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			part of the discipline of the
Hydra of course, which is quite
		
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			emphasized in the relevant hadith
is to maintain a
		
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			A
		
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			beautiful adverb with all of the
other people because crowds can be
		
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			difficult to crowds have almost a
mind of their own sometimes. And
		
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			if the
		
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			the crowding the bottlenecks, the
stampedes are to be avoided and
		
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			everybody has to be more attentive
to the human men later than they
		
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			are really at any other time.
Generally, we find that the adverb
		
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			of congregation is important in
all of our rituals in Ramadan, for
		
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			instance, in the prayer, sacred
places family life, this is very
		
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			much the religion of Edinburgh,
but particularly during the Hajj
		
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			for that author, well, that was
all covered it down if you hedge
		
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			there should be no bad language
and there should be no
		
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			roughness. There should be no
argumentation during the Hajj. So
		
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			if somebody pokes you in the back
with a strangely sharp umbrella
		
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			you don't notice or if you do just
sneak down with with a smile. This
		
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			is part of the usual Muslim add up
anyway, of course, but on the how
		
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			tos is particularly particularly
vital. So the throng of what a dev
		
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			disciplined and courteous human
beings around the one really is
		
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			the kind of mapping out in one
place of what the entire Ummah,
		
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			ideally want the whole of Benny
Adam is supposed to be because of
		
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			course, it is the recollection of
the beginning of time and the end
		
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			of time, which are collective
events. The beginning of time.
		
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			When we all said Belorussia
Hytner, yes, we bear witness
		
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			of which the telopea than the
baker is supposed to be a kind of
		
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			echo. Bella. Yes, love bake is
also like, yes, we still remember,
		
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			we were present with you in the
complete if the holder of all of
		
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			Benny Adam at the beginning of
time, when we all bore witness to
		
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			you which is one of the
significances of the Blackstone
		
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			represents the reaffirmation of
that visa, that covenant,
		
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			which was collected, it was taken
from the from all of the seed of
		
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			Benny Adam. And then the end time
of course, which is represented
		
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			particularly by the wall for the
standing of our effort. There we
		
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			recall that as we work together,
at the beginning, so two we will
		
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			be together, everybody, all the
nations all the ages,
		
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			believers, unbelievers, everybody
present all Benny Adam at the end,
		
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			in order to see the consequences
of the way in which we responded
		
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			to that Belorussia hidden and to
that lab bake. So there's a
		
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			perfect news cosmological
symmetry, really, about the way in
		
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			which the plurality of Benny Adam
is is managed and represented
		
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			during the several minutes of the
Hajj.
		
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			You spoke of beautiful tension,
beautiful add up, and this kind of
		
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			timeless quality that's there in
the GABA. And is that something
		
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			specific to the GABA? I mean, is
the GABA a very unique place in
		
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			being able to engender this kind
of behavior and this kind of
		
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			timelessness?
		
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			Well, the Kaaba is, of course,
veiled, and it's non
		
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			representational, and it's
mysterious. Everybody has a sense
		
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			of the mysterium tremendum to the
immense Jalali mystery of the
		
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			Divine, when approaching the
Kaaba, and as I said, you have the
		
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			enormous crowds circling it with
the maximal differentiation of
		
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			human beings and then you have the
complete unicity of that symbol of
		
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			that which lies beneath that beta
mountain war and which is
		
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			ultimately a representation as
even the least educated hajis know
		
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			of the unknowable eternity the
immutability, of, of the Divine.
		
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			So as a symbol, which of course,
like all Greek symbols, has a kind
		
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			of alchemical effect on on those
who experience it. It's absolutely
		
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			perfect. It's the perfect
representation of what monotheism
		
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			is about, but of course, the Kaaba
has its role in
		
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			sacred history as well. The Hodges
remember how it was resurrected,
		
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			repressed, donated purified by
Ibrahim Ismail. And the historic
		
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			record that a smile is actually
buried in the hedger, which is
		
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			next to the cabin. It's very much
an Abrahamic century as well as a
		
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			primordial and an Adamic. One, so
it represents both the
		
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			timelessness
		
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			the self referential mystery of
the Divine, which is the first you
		
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			had, but also the divine as
experienced and operating in
		
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			linear time in history, which is
for us preeminently the Abrahamic
		
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			story
		
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			So there's a kind of chronological
as well as eternal dimension,
		
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			which is represented by the cap.
And I think all of the hajis when
		
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			they're, they're part of that
reverence for the Kappa, and their
		
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			acknowledgement of the perfection
of it as, as an active symbol is
		
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			due to their consciousness of
these two axes of the holder of
		
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			the cannabis sacred function.
		
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			So it's another tension is between
the eternity and the kind of
		
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			temporality and ever changing
nature of the world itself. I
		
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			think, you know, one of the things
that we've touched on repeatedly
		
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			in this podcast is how
		
00:10:37 --> 00:10:43
			the Muslim community's way of
traveling to and experiencing the
		
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			holy cities has changed so
drastically, especially in the
		
00:10:45 --> 00:10:50
			last 100 and 150 years. So how
have changes in Muslim mobility,
		
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			as well as changes to the sacred
sites themselves, change the way
		
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			that Muslims experience traveled
to and participation in the hajj?
		
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			Well, of course, Muslims down the
centuries from the beginning have
		
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			recorded that experience of the
Hajj we have so many travelogues.
		
00:11:08 --> 00:11:13
			One of my favorites, sadly brief
was by the British Muslim *
		
00:11:13 --> 00:11:19
			William Williamson, who saw the
hajj when it was still really a
		
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			fully traditional event. He went
there during the Ottoman times in
		
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			the 1870s, I think,
		
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			guy from Bristol, who converted
and did the Hajj several times and
		
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			took the hydro caravan from
Baghdad to the hijas. On the road
		
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			that was built and watered by
Princess Zubaydah in the time of
		
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			huddled Rashid, one of the great
roots of the Islamic world. It's
		
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			the commercial routes like the
Silk Road, but there's also the
		
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			pilgrimage roads which go
everywhere, which sometimes
		
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			overlap and sometimes are quite
distinct, and the fortresses and
		
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			the water systems of elf, the dark
Zubaydah still there in the
		
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			desert, in Arabia,
		
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			you can visit them on a four wheel
drive, and you can see the
		
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			enormous nature of the
infrastructure that classical
		
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			Islam developed. But Williamson
said that it was a camel train, of
		
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			course.
		
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			And it took about a month, a month
and a bit, Baghdad to NACA, and
		
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			that was a very useful
transitional time, as well as, of
		
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			course, the time waiting for the
these 1000s of camels it was
		
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			really brilliantly organized by
his account could get going, that
		
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			on the journey. It was all about
sitting on your camera, or as many
		
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			people walking next to your camera
on or sitting down and watching
		
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			the whole thing go by with the
flags and the different
		
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			nationalities and the women and
their penguins, and children
		
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			messing around, and goats and
sheep that were being brought
		
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			along. To feed people as they went
1000s upon 1000s of camels, it was
		
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			an extraordinary spectacle and he
liked to go up to the front, he
		
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			had a very fast camel, and then
sit down and rest and watch the
		
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			entire caravan go by just to see
the sheer kind of Carnival like
		
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			festival of it. But of course,
what people are doing is they were
		
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			singing, they were doing vicar. It
was all in shared people reciting
		
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			the core and the impromptu classes
going on the scholars would still
		
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			be teaching that have some of
their students with them. It was a
		
00:13:19 --> 00:13:24
			kind of mobiles Zarya or mobile
University. So people had as it
		
00:13:24 --> 00:13:30
			were a month to detox and dunya
before they cited the holy city,
		
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			so they had enough time to get
into the zone. As we say nowadays,
		
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			today, it's quite different. Of
course, you stepped off the plane
		
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43
			having just dealt with terminal B
at Gatwick and there you are in
		
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			Jeddah and there's a high speed
train and whoop. At one moment,
		
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			you're in Guildford or somewhere
the next moment you're standing in
		
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			front of Abraham's ancient house.
And we don't really have enough
		
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			time to transition, I think, from
the profane to the sacred. And I
		
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			think that really diminishes the
often shattering, transformative
		
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09
			Tober inducing effect that hatred
has always had on people.
		
00:14:10 --> 00:14:14
			Obviously, we can't get back to
the time of the camel train.
		
00:14:14 --> 00:14:18
			There's just too many people doing
it. But there has been, I think, a
		
00:14:18 --> 00:14:22
			qualitative decline. And you can
see that sometimes in that paddock
		
00:14:22 --> 00:14:27
			of people, they're grumbling about
the hotels, and they're behaving
		
00:14:27 --> 00:14:32
			almost as if it's a kind of
tourism experience. Whereas in
		
00:14:32 --> 00:14:36
			fact, of course, it's supposed to
be uncomfortable. It is time of
		
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			discomfort, that frm is not really
a terribly easy thing to manage
		
00:14:43 --> 00:14:48
			for days after days, and it's
supposed to be an ascetical
		
00:14:48 --> 00:14:48
			experience.
		
00:14:49 --> 00:14:54
			And nowadays, people don't really
have the time I think, to get
		
00:14:54 --> 00:14:58
			themselves into a mental space
that prepares them for that and so
		
00:14:58 --> 00:14:59
			they tend to grumble I think a lot
more
		
00:15:00 --> 00:15:03
			than they used to, even though the
hydro is a lot safer and more
		
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04
			comfortable than it's ever been.
		
00:15:06 --> 00:15:12
			So in addition to our time, and
our sort of qualitative experience
		
00:15:12 --> 00:15:17
			being diminished. Another
consequence of the modern hedge
		
00:15:17 --> 00:15:22
			certainly is that our impact on
the space itself is so much more.
		
00:15:22 --> 00:15:26
			I think that's even just visible
through just the sheer amount of
		
00:15:26 --> 00:15:30
			waste that's generated through
through our pilgrimage. So one
		
00:15:30 --> 00:15:34
			thing I wanted to speak with you
about specifically is, are there
		
00:15:34 --> 00:15:38
			ways we can imagine the hudge of
the present and the future, which
		
00:15:39 --> 00:15:43
			enables not just a conscious
gathering, but a conscientious
		
00:15:43 --> 00:15:47
			commitment to safeguarding our
natural world and our holy cities?
		
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51
			What would this kind of gathering
even look like? And does it
		
00:15:51 --> 00:15:54
			require an understanding of
communities? You've talked about
		
00:15:54 --> 00:15:58
			this concept of Oman elsewhere?
Does it require an understanding
		
00:15:58 --> 00:16:02
			of Oman, that takes us out of
ourselves as the only gatherers
		
00:16:02 --> 00:16:03
			there?
		
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10
			Well, in a sense, the idea of a
sanctuary, which is obviously what
		
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16
			the visit is all about, extends
not just to human beings who have
		
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20
			the right of sanctuary, how close
you are in Allah's hospital, so to
		
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24
			animals. Interestingly, there are
quite strict rules in a haram
		
00:16:24 --> 00:16:29
			about not killing animals. And if
you do, if you go hunting or
		
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34
			something and you're wrong, it can
invalidate a lot of the things
		
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36
			have had you have to make a
sacrifice and
		
00:16:37 --> 00:16:38
			so that
		
00:16:39 --> 00:16:44
			it's often observed that the
sanctuary is a Mecca and Medina
		
00:16:44 --> 00:16:48
			are the world's first sort of
national parks or wildlife
		
00:16:48 --> 00:16:53
			reserves, where animals could walk
around completely unharmed. Even
		
00:16:53 --> 00:16:57
			the people who are living in Mecca
wouldn't dare to interfere with
		
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01
			the pigeons with the wild donkeys
with the wild cats that still
		
00:17:01 --> 00:17:04
			exist in the desert. They're
ostriches, they have a lot of
		
00:17:04 --> 00:17:06
			stuff in the desert, in Arabia.
		
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11
			So that principle, that it is a
sanctuary, not just for human
		
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16
			worshipers, but for the animal
orders of creation as well, I
		
00:17:16 --> 00:17:21
			think indicates one of the things
that needs to be done in the minds
		
00:17:21 --> 00:17:22
			of the hajis
		
00:17:23 --> 00:17:30
			that they need to connect with the
stark beauty of desert nature.
		
00:17:30 --> 00:17:34
			That was always part of the
experience. That Medina was this
		
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38
			incredibly kind of lush, green
oasis, and maca was about the
		
00:17:38 --> 00:17:43
			driest. most arid desiccated,
conurbation on Earth with those
		
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47
			bare mountains. It's like being on
the surface of Mars, really,
		
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50
			hardly anything seems to grow that
		
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55
			and experiencing that start Kunis,
the
		
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01
			almost vision inducing rigor and
beauty of
		
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06
			the mountainous desert, something
that I think people need to
		
00:18:06 --> 00:18:11
			reconnect with that on their way,
they shouldn't be looking at the
		
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16
			the perfume and the watch
advertisement on the billboards as
		
00:18:16 --> 00:18:20
			they go up, but they should be
concentrating on the beauty of the
		
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24
			mountains, trying to focus on the
aridity of the desert, the miracle
		
00:18:24 --> 00:18:29
			of life, the fragility of life,
all of these traditional spiritual
		
00:18:29 --> 00:18:34
			lessons, which the Hajj journey
has always helped people with
		
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37
			historically and we need to look
past the bright lights and the
		
00:18:37 --> 00:18:42
			kind of Dubai Mall culture aspect
of the holy city and try and
		
00:18:42 --> 00:18:47
			reconnect with the beauty of the
sky, the beauty of the people, the
		
00:18:47 --> 00:18:53
			beauty of the mountains, wherever
we can focus on nature as witness
		
00:18:53 --> 00:18:56
			to the Divine creative beauty,
that's what we should be looking
		
00:18:56 --> 00:18:58
			at not at the bright lights
		
00:19:00 --> 00:19:07
			you are also a * yourself, a
* yourself. And if I can ask
		
00:19:07 --> 00:19:11
			you now some questions about your
own experience as a pilgrim on
		
00:19:11 --> 00:19:16
			camera and of course on hedge.
Maybe we can start with your own
		
00:19:16 --> 00:19:21
			hedge and how you how that took
place when it was and if you can
		
00:19:21 --> 00:19:25
			tell us a little bit about that
and especially how you kind of the
		
00:19:25 --> 00:19:31
			journey preparation for journey to
experience of and return from?
		
00:19:32 --> 00:19:36
			Well, in a sense, I almost cheated
because I was living in Jeddah at
		
00:19:36 --> 00:19:39
			the time, which is they call it
dailies or Haramain, the kind of
		
00:19:39 --> 00:19:45
			portico of the holy cities and as
the Hajj season approaches. When I
		
00:19:45 --> 00:19:49
			was living there back in the 80s
rhythm of the city really changed
		
00:19:49 --> 00:19:53
			very much and you saw the flocks
of sheep being driven through the
		
00:19:53 --> 00:19:57
			streets and people in Iran and
crowds starting to move in the
		
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59
			direction of the city. I lived on
the Mecca.
		
00:20:00 --> 00:20:04
			route. So, in a sense, all you
needed to do is step out of your
		
00:20:04 --> 00:20:08
			front door during all hedger and
the crowds would carry along with
		
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11
			you liked it or not, and you'd
find yourself at the car Bay, it
		
00:20:11 --> 00:20:16
			was where everybody was headed. So
it wasn't. It wasn't anything like
		
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20
			the traditional month getting sore
on a camel experience that people
		
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22
			used to have. But
		
00:20:24 --> 00:20:28
			I did it several times. And I
found that useful, because,
		
00:20:28 --> 00:20:32
			particularly if you're from the
West, where there's a certain sort
		
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37
			of spectacle oriented, experience
oriented mentality that goes with
		
00:20:37 --> 00:20:41
			traveling, here's a picture of me
next to the Taj Mahal. Here's a
		
00:20:41 --> 00:20:45
			picture of me halfway up the
Eiffel Tower, etc, in a strange,
		
00:20:45 --> 00:20:50
			really strange thing to do. To go
around taking pictures of yourself
		
00:20:50 --> 00:20:54
			next to monuments that culturally
you probably don't relate to at
		
00:20:54 --> 00:21:00
			all. And that that decadent sort
of profane tourism really has to
		
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04
			be exorcised. Because the Hajj is,
it's really spectacular.
		
00:21:06 --> 00:21:12
			It offers scenes of severe
grandiose that aren't rivaled by
		
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17
			anything else on Earth. As far as
I know, the view from the
		
00:21:17 --> 00:21:21
			foothills of Arafat of the tent
city, the view that you get from
		
00:21:21 --> 00:21:28
			the roof of the harem, looking
down at billions of people doing
		
00:21:28 --> 00:21:32
			their toe off with a caliber as it
were being carried aloft, almost
		
00:21:32 --> 00:21:37
			in triumph by the by the circling
pilgrims, even though it takes
		
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40
			maybe an hour and a half just to
go around once because there's so
		
00:21:40 --> 00:21:45
			many people it's shattering. And
everybody praying, and everybody's
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:49
			sort of half in tears. There's
nothing like that visually on
		
00:21:49 --> 00:21:53
			Earth. And if God forbid, they
ever did lead tourists in it would
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:56
			immediately become the world's
leading tourist attraction because
		
00:21:56 --> 00:22:02
			it's just so sensational.
Visually, it's extraordinary. So
		
00:22:02 --> 00:22:06
			it's important to get past that,
because that's really not what
		
00:22:06 --> 00:22:10
			it's about. So what becomes
particularly interesting as
		
00:22:11 --> 00:22:15
			well, so many things. Firstly,
there's the kind of Carnival like
		
00:22:15 --> 00:22:20
			atmosphere that seems to attach to
so many Islamic things. Ramadan,
		
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23
			for instance, looks like a time of
real severity. It's kind of
		
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27
			killjoy experience on the surface,
but it's also very festive time in
		
00:22:27 --> 00:22:31
			an odd kind of way that newcomers
to Islam find puzzling.
		
00:22:32 --> 00:22:37
			Juma prayer is kind of again, sort
of Carnival but that also on the
		
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40
			Hajj, even though it's certainly
not the hedonistic experiences is
		
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45
			that joyfulness that people
experience, particularly those
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48
			who've been before they find
themselves back in the kind of
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52
			corrugated iron shantytown of
Minar. And it's just absolutely
		
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54
			wonderful. And we're so happy to
be back.
		
00:22:57 --> 00:23:02
			So yeah, that kind of euphoria is
very interesting, and unexpected
		
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07
			to people who haven't seen that
aspect of Islam before. And then
		
00:23:07 --> 00:23:08
			the,
		
00:23:09 --> 00:23:14
			the enigma of the rituals, which
are unlike anything else in Islam,
		
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19
			there's nothing else in the film
that has power, often sci fi and a
		
00:23:19 --> 00:23:24
			well walk off and all of that it's
souI, generous and unfamiliar. But
		
00:23:24 --> 00:23:28
			everybody gets used to it right
away. And they seem to know
		
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31
			exactly what to do as if they've
been doing it every day of their
		
00:23:31 --> 00:23:36
			lives. There's a certain profound,
natural Muslim LIS about those
		
00:23:36 --> 00:23:40
			surprising things that people
immediately relax into.
		
00:23:42 --> 00:23:43
			But I suppose the most
		
00:23:44 --> 00:23:48
			revealing thing is the effect it
has on people.
		
00:23:49 --> 00:23:55
			I went up a couple of times with a
bunch of bankers, as I was doing
		
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58
			some work for a bank. And so this
was a cheap way for me to do a
		
00:23:58 --> 00:24:04
			hedge. So we get onto these rather
posh buses. And just to see how
		
00:24:04 --> 00:24:09
			different people were, when they
went up, grumbling and
		
00:24:09 --> 00:24:13
			complaining, arguing about
paperwork, blah, blah, talking
		
00:24:13 --> 00:24:18
			about work. And then four or five
days later on the same bus is
		
00:24:18 --> 00:24:25
			coming back. sneezing and coughing
and with kind of scratching their
		
00:24:25 --> 00:24:29
			hair catastrophe that ends badly
shaved and
		
00:24:31 --> 00:24:36
			now eating things that hadn't
agreed with them, it is quite a
		
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40
			quite an ordeal. And the way in
which they would look out for
		
00:24:40 --> 00:24:44
			themselves and make sure that
everybody in the bus had enough to
		
00:24:44 --> 00:24:49
			eat and to drink and the courtesy
and the color and somehow, this
		
00:24:49 --> 00:24:55
			mysterious set of practices, these
archetypal geometries of the cube
		
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58
			and the straight line and the
circles and this kind of ancient
		
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00
			ceremony.
		
00:25:00 --> 00:25:05
			he'll have some kind of alchemical
effect on people's souls. So that
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09
			I found very impressive seeing
people have been quite profane at
		
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13
			the outset, really being changed
within a few days.
		
00:25:14 --> 00:25:19
			How that works, who knows? That is
one of the enigmas of the hedge.
		
00:25:19 --> 00:25:24
			But yeah, so hijama broad, to be
more broad is the term that we use
		
00:25:24 --> 00:25:31
			means, as it were to be made good
to be made innocent, comes from
		
00:25:31 --> 00:25:36
			this better word. And it's a past
participle that had your mother or
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40
			the 100 is supposed to be the one
who is made good made innocent,
		
00:25:40 --> 00:25:44
			washed, even though he really
needs a shower.
		
00:25:45 --> 00:25:50
			By this enigma of the cube to
circle, the straight line,
		
00:25:50 --> 00:25:54
			throwing the stones, all of these
apparently unfamiliar things. So
		
00:25:55 --> 00:25:59
			yeah, what do you end up with is
the index applicability of the
		
00:25:59 --> 00:26:05
			hedge and awareness that it really
works. It's an incredible sort of
		
00:26:06 --> 00:26:11
			factory of talvez, millions of
people turned around, and given
		
00:26:11 --> 00:26:16
			memories that will keep their
religiosity going until they die.
		
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22
			But how it works, who knows? It's
one of God's mysteries, and it's
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25
			to do with the deep workings of
the human heart and things that
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:29
			touch the heart and change it that
are beyond the capacity of
		
00:26:30 --> 00:26:34
			any formal discourse, or
neuroscience or anything really to
		
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38
			understand. All one knows is that
the thing works.
		
00:26:40 --> 00:26:44
			A theme that's come up a lot in
our lived experience conversations
		
00:26:44 --> 00:26:48
			in this podcast is how you're part
of a crowd in the hedge, but also
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:53
			somehow alone. And this was
surprising for me to listen to as
		
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56
			somebody who's never been on HUD
that though you're a part of this
		
00:26:56 --> 00:27:00
			grand crowd, that there's a kind
of loneliness in the HUD too. I
		
00:27:00 --> 00:27:04
			was wondering, in your experience,
how did you? How did that how did
		
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06
			that tension exists for you to
this crowd, but alone?
		
00:27:08 --> 00:27:13
			Well, it's obviously not solitude,
because it's impossible to be
		
00:27:13 --> 00:27:18
			alone on the hunch. Really, it is
a collective drama, a blessing.
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:24
			People get lost, of course. And
that's one of the things that the
		
00:27:24 --> 00:27:30
			SAUDI Boy Scouts do, they're in
charge of lost persons. I remember
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:31
			once when we were in our tent,
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36
			one of the Boy Scouts came to the
door of the tent telling her that
		
00:27:36 --> 00:27:41
			there were English speakers there.
And he, he was with this, I guess
		
00:27:41 --> 00:27:46
			she was about 12 or 13 years old
American girl who had never before
		
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49
			in her life been outside
Washington state.
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:54
			And here she was at the hedge
dismissed on familiar thing in the
		
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57
			world with these 3 million people
in his tent city and the
		
00:27:57 --> 00:27:58
			shattering some.
		
00:27:59 --> 00:28:01
			And she was lost. she'd lost her
parents.
		
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05
			So she stayed with us a little
while but she'd be there just
		
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09
			parked with us while they went to
find them and I think they would
		
00:28:09 --> 00:28:13
			reunited finally so I guess she
was kind of really feeling alone.
		
00:28:14 --> 00:28:18
			Isolated, although of course,
hunch is a very safe place and
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:23
			things like that. It's just too
many people around for any sort of
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26
			familiar miscreant see to be
possible that
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:34
			I think if there's a sense of
loneliness, it is because the Hajj
		
00:28:34 --> 00:28:38
			does confront you with his
unfamiliarity with circumstances
		
00:28:38 --> 00:28:42
			that really make you think this
isn't familiarity that comes with
		
00:28:42 --> 00:28:46
			praying, mothering, for the
5,000th time, or during Ramadan,
		
00:28:46 --> 00:28:51
			for the 20th time. But the 100 is
all new, especially the first time
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:54
			it's kind of unfamiliar, and much
of it is spiritually quite
		
00:28:54 --> 00:28:59
			confrontational, the the, the
confrontation with Aqaba, the
		
00:28:59 --> 00:29:05
			first time, the experience of
everything, the sacrifice, this
		
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08
			thorough stoning of the peers,
that shows your pillars, the
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12
			shattering crowds, their mount
artifacts, all kinds of new. And I
		
00:29:12 --> 00:29:15
			think that when we're confronted
by something really new, that's
		
00:29:15 --> 00:29:19
			when we're more self aware. And we
start to think, Oh, well, this is
		
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23
			strange, weird. How do I deal with
this and we become more conscious
		
00:29:23 --> 00:29:28
			of ourselves. And bats feel a
little bit more vulnerable. So
		
00:29:28 --> 00:29:32
			perhaps it's a vulnerability or
that sense of solitude. But of
		
00:29:32 --> 00:29:37
			course, in our life of dark, we're
all alone, really. But one of the
		
00:29:37 --> 00:29:41
			beauties of the Hodges late
afternoon on artifact when the sun
		
00:29:41 --> 00:29:47
			isn't so hot, and everybody's out
there headed under the sky, and
		
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51
			everybody's making sure that you
attach yourself to some group or
		
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54
			other somebody who knows what it's
doing is reading the long
		
00:29:54 --> 00:29:59
			beautiful door app and yeah, the
tears flow and it's staying
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03
			Growing up that I think is when
people feel that they are alone
		
00:30:03 --> 00:30:07
			and helpless in the presence of
the Almighty, they will call that
		
00:30:07 --> 00:30:12
			they will come to God for that as
individuals on the last day, and
		
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15
			that they will stand alone for the
judgment. And they feel that
		
00:30:15 --> 00:30:19
			immense sense of personal
accountability and responsibility
		
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23
			and vulnerability at that time. So
I suppose that's the context where
		
00:30:23 --> 00:30:28
			people might feel alone, I did it,
perhaps it's just they feel that
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:32
			they are individuals. Rather than
that they feel they're solitary, I
		
00:30:32 --> 00:30:36
			think it's more like that. And of
course, a wonderful wake up call
		
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40
			for a lot of people that often,
especially in our kind of dazed
		
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44
			times, are over entertained times,
are not really in touch with their
		
00:30:44 --> 00:30:48
			own human subjectivity, that is
just wandering from distraction to
		
00:30:48 --> 00:30:52
			distraction. It's hard on the
house to do that. There's too much
		
00:30:52 --> 00:30:57
			that immediately confronts you and
demands full attention and the
		
00:30:57 --> 00:31:00
			fullness of your response. It's a
form of thicker.
		
00:31:02 --> 00:31:06
			And what did you take with you,
when you finish the head? What did
		
00:31:06 --> 00:31:11
			you bring back with you material
object or otherwise? Well,
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:12
			material objects.
		
00:31:14 --> 00:31:19
			When you can, of course, pick up
some nice things the Indonesian
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23
			hajis bring along batek fabrics.
Some of the things the West
		
00:31:23 --> 00:31:28
			Africans brings to the basket work
is really nice, less and less
		
00:31:28 --> 00:31:33
			crafts, I think, more and more
sort of chain stores in the malls
		
00:31:33 --> 00:31:35
			of Makkah, that seems to be the
model.
		
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41
			There's nothing wrong with
shopping on the Hajj, but it's not
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:45
			really supposed to be the center
of things. So I'm not sure that
		
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49
			people get any books. Sometimes
that will be useful. I still have
		
00:31:49 --> 00:31:53
			books that I recall, were pressed
into my head, sometimes by their
		
00:31:53 --> 00:31:54
			authors.
		
00:31:55 --> 00:32:00
			On the highchair, she often asked
why MIDI tunisienne are lame. I
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:04
			did hedge with him once and he
gave me his quite useful fifth
		
00:32:04 --> 00:32:08
			book with some fetters which I
still have. So I guess it has the
		
00:32:08 --> 00:32:14
			baraka of the hunch about it, that
people basically go back with
		
00:32:16 --> 00:32:22
			a renewed awareness of the
absolute seriousness of religion,
		
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27
			the sacrifice that it requires of
us, the fact that we have been
		
00:32:27 --> 00:32:29
			given a kind of
		
00:32:30 --> 00:32:35
			pre call of the Last Day, and have
been given a little bit of time or
		
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39
			kind of bottler, in order to think
about whether we're really ready
		
00:32:39 --> 00:32:41
			for the last gathering or not.
		
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46
			And I think a lot of people have
confrontations with themselves
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:50
			during the Hajj that really helped
them to pull their lives together,
		
00:32:51 --> 00:32:54
			sought out family issues, sought
out debts.
		
00:32:55 --> 00:33:01
			Try and remember, as one is
supposed to when one is really in
		
00:33:01 --> 00:33:05
			a state of good prayer, the things
that one most urgently needs to
		
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08
			put right about one's life and
about oneself. And other people
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:13
			have those moments of self
awareness, which I suspect are the
		
00:33:13 --> 00:33:16
			real souvenirs, the things that
people really bring back with them
		
00:33:16 --> 00:33:19
			that may well treasure so much and
considered to be so private that
		
00:33:19 --> 00:33:24
			they never tell anybody about but
to kind of do this treasures
		
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27
			diamonds that they keep in their
hearts that they consult sometimes
		
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30
			when they're feeling down and help
them to remain on the straight
		
00:33:30 --> 00:33:30
			path.
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:36
			Shake of taking it is there any
other reflection you'd like to add
		
00:33:36 --> 00:33:40
			that I didn't ask you about
directly any other memory? Well, I
		
00:33:40 --> 00:33:44
			think everybody at this time
although we're not on the Hajj
		
00:33:44 --> 00:33:49
			should remember the Kaaba and
should remember the Hajj, the
		
00:33:49 --> 00:33:54
			mystery of it and the majesty of
it, and should hopefully feel
		
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58
			their heart yearning for the
house, remember has led when he
		
00:33:58 --> 00:34:03
			talks about the houses the
beginning of it is an SDR Populum
		
00:34:03 --> 00:34:08
			bait than longing for the house,
which is a very characteristically
		
00:34:08 --> 00:34:14
			mysterious Muslim impulse. Of
course, it's inculcated each time
		
00:34:14 --> 00:34:15
			we pray because
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19
			we know that when we die in sha
Allah, we will be facing the
		
00:34:19 --> 00:34:24
			Qibla. The houses important is
that this worldly orientation that
		
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28
			represents the God would direction
which Islam seeks to instill
		
00:34:29 --> 00:34:33
			within our lives. So not only for
the house, reverence for the
		
00:34:33 --> 00:34:40
			house, a sense of amazement at the
house, and a sense of taqwa, and
		
00:34:40 --> 00:34:45
			some sense of self awareness, and
the need for correct added, which
		
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48
			is one of the things that physical
proximity to the house inculcates
		
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52
			is something that we can all
benefit from, even if we're not on
		
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56
			the Hajj, to think about the Kaaba
to feel one's heart move, to
		
00:34:56 --> 00:35:00
			remember where the Fiddler is. To
remember that Allah is actually
		
00:35:00 --> 00:35:05
			A omnipresent even though that is
his house, these are gifts that I
		
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09
			think we can benefit from in this
season.
		
00:35:10 --> 00:35:14
			And we ask Allah to increase his
house in protection and in honor
		
00:35:14 --> 00:35:18
			and in the number of its visitors
and the quality of his custodians
		
00:35:18 --> 00:35:22
			and child on this day bestow the
Toba giving benefits of the house
		
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25
			on the ALMA till the last day, I
mean
		
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33
			shake up the hurricanes
descriptions of the carnival
		
00:35:33 --> 00:35:38
			atmosphere of the Hajj and the
enigma of its rituals. And what he
		
00:35:38 --> 00:35:41
			spoke of as the overall
inexplicable bility of the Hajj
		
00:35:41 --> 00:35:46
			and its alchemical effects on the
soul really sums up the entirety
		
00:35:46 --> 00:35:50
			of what we have heard in this
podcast. From so many different
		
00:35:50 --> 00:35:55
			voices across the world, about the
Hajj, it is an experience unlike
		
00:35:55 --> 00:36:01
			any other in a place, so different
from every other, a place which is
		
00:36:01 --> 00:36:05
			a sanctuary in the fullest sense
for persons, animals, minerals,
		
00:36:06 --> 00:36:10
			and seen and unseen beings, all of
whom have protection in this
		
00:36:10 --> 00:36:15
			place, who are shaded by law and
Divine Mercy, a place which
		
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20
			requires the utmost courtesy from
its visitors, and which we can
		
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24
			show as pilgrims. If we indeed
imagine ourselves as custodians,
		
00:36:24 --> 00:36:28
			carers and guardians of the
natural world, and travelers in
		
00:36:28 --> 00:36:34
			the fullest sense, here to pass
through and return back to God.
		
00:36:34 --> 00:36:39
			That, of course, as Jacob Rahim
has left us with today requires
		
00:36:39 --> 00:36:44
			cultivating some slowness in our
movement towards and within the
		
00:36:44 --> 00:36:49
			holy cities, so that we may
prepare our bodies and spirits for
		
00:36:49 --> 00:36:53
			the transformation to follow. As
he said, We need time to
		
00:36:53 --> 00:36:57
			transition from the profane, to
the sacred.
		
00:36:58 --> 00:37:02
			As we conclude our series, shake
up the Hakim's prayer for all of
		
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05
			us, seems to perfectly encapsulate
one of the central themes of this
		
00:37:05 --> 00:37:10
			podcast to increase yearning and
longing for the Sacred House, and
		
00:37:10 --> 00:37:15
			peripheral and prayerful
intentions to return to it. I want
		
00:37:15 --> 00:37:20
			to thank him once again, and thank
all our guests for their generous
		
00:37:20 --> 00:37:25
			contributions to this series, and
for bringing life and meaning into
		
00:37:25 --> 00:37:29
			our reflections upon Hajj this
year, and most sincere thanks to
		
00:37:29 --> 00:37:33
			all of you for tuning into this
series. If you benefited from this
		
00:37:33 --> 00:37:37
			podcast, then please consider
making a donation to the college
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:41
			today to ensure it continues
training the next generation of
		
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44
			Muslim thinkers. Thank you very
much. And Assalamu alaykum
		
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46
			Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh