Yousuf Raza – Reflections on the Motorway Incident

Yousuf Raza
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The speakers discuss the impact of recent incident on society, including mental health and sexual abuse. They emphasize the importance of individual choice and finding vulnerable individuals to prevent harm. They stress the need for continuous awareness and training in professional societies, as well as cooperation between institutions and professional help in addressing these issues. The speakers emphasize the need for people to trust institutions and emphasize the importance of creating a culture of responsible behavior.

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			Let's begin.
		
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			We announced that we were going to share
		
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			some reflections on the motorway incident, the tragedy
		
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			that that found its way into our living
		
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			rooms that everyone heard about was deeply moved
		
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			by and shocked really.
		
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			So, that's what we wanted to discuss.
		
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			Usually, the discussion on this topic becomes political.
		
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			So, we wanted to bring a little bit
		
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			of a psychological perspective into it and there's
		
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			a lot of concern that people have.
		
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			So,
		
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			So, it's
		
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			it's it's
		
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			it's
		
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			it's it's
		
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			it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
		
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			it's
		
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			it's it's it's it's it's it's
		
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			it's it's
		
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			it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
		
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			it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
		
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			it's it's it's it's it's or that, we
		
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			can't we can't go around spreading stuff like
		
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			that.
		
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			Joy will have before they make an action
		
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			before they do anything.
		
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			We just take that away and just attribute
		
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			that to in this I don't see that
		
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			tendency or that line of inquiry pursuing pursuing
		
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			that I don't think it's taking us very
		
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			far.
		
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			they are doing this under some psychological disorder.
		
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			So we reduce their freedom of will, especially
		
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			if their personality is a disorder.
		
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			Dr. Yusuf, this is another type of mistake
		
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			that some people produce.
		
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			In every such act, it is very common
		
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			in the society.
		
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			Yes, all of these things affect people.
		
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			But can we take away their action on
		
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			this explanation?
		
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			Again, we are taking away.
		
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			Whether we blame the disease, or we blame
		
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			a particular issue of the society, or the
		
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			individual perpetrators.
		
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			But the biological element has a role to
		
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			play.
		
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			We can't deny that.
		
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			We can't deny that as psychiatrists, as scientists.
		
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			That's ridiculous.
		
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			And neither can we deny that whatever is
		
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			going on in society, the conceptions are also
		
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			related to it.
		
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			We will talk about those as well.
		
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			But if we just focus on that, and
		
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			make it our sole responsibility, that there is
		
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			nothing else.
		
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			If we just fix this, everything will be
		
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			fine.
		
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			That's as ridiculous.
		
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			That is as ridiculous.
		
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			Just before we move on, we talked about
		
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			illness and mental illness.
		
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			You must have seen that those who have
		
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			gone into a manic phase in bipolar, for
		
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			those of you listening, you must have heard
		
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			of bipolar, but we completely misunderstand it.
		
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			It is a rapid state, hyperactivity, talking a
		
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			lot, shouting a lot, making big claims.
		
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			It also has a lot of sexuality.
		
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			Right?
		
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			And we do note that the case studies
		
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			that we get, the description that we get
		
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			of mania, in Western countries, the degree of
		
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			sexual promiscuity that takes place there, in our
		
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			patients, everything considered, it is still very much
		
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			under control.
		
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			We will not find that our normally average
		
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			manic patient is going around sexually abusing people.
		
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			That's actually very surprising.
		
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			Technically, biologically, according to the definition of the
		
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			disease, they should be doing it.
		
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			But those social constraints are such that the
		
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			most manic of our patients will still be
		
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			able to muster some respect or some restraint
		
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			that they can control themselves.
		
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			So, if they can do it, if they
		
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			can do it, if people in mania can
		
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			control their sexual impulses such that they are
		
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			not going around abusing people, which is the
		
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			definition of the disease, they shouldn't, then that
		
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			is saying something.
		
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			That is saying something about, again, the freedom
		
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			of individuals.
		
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			Right.
		
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			So, yes, I completely agree with you.
		
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			In a way, our agenda is defined.
		
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			And for good reason, we have our social
		
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			causes that we stand up for.
		
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			after such an incident, to use that as
		
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			an opportunity to trumpet your social cause, that
		
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			if what we have been saying for a
		
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			long time happens, then there will be no
		
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			such incidents.
		
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			Okay, they may play a role, but there
		
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			is more to it.
		
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			There is definitely much more to it than
		
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			just that.
		
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			That you can blame the society and leave
		
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			it at that.
		
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			That's unfair.
		
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			And if we increase any one factor and
		
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			negate all the other factors, whether it is
		
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			fascism, or the opposite of it, which is
		
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			sexual suppression, whether it is that thing, or
		
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			the political and economic factors, whether it is
		
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			all that, but not a single factor plays
		
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			a role in it.
		
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			And even in the end, the choice is
		
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			the individual's own.
		
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			Even if all these factors are included, what
		
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			decision does the individual have to take at
		
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			that time?
		
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			The choice of that individual will always be
		
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			important.
		
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			And the legal system plays a role in
		
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			this choice.
		
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			Yes?
		
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			Absolutely.
		
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			Look, whatever happened, first of all, let's be
		
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			very clear that this is the tip of
		
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			the iceberg.
		
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			The thing that has attracted the attention of
		
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			the media, the attention of social media, and
		
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			everyone in the country knows, this is a
		
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			rarity that everyone has come to know.
		
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			But cases like this, incidents like this, this
		
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			is a matter of every other day.
		
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			This is a matter of every other day.
		
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			Even the last time something like this happened,
		
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			the Zainab incident, even at that time, there
		
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			were police officers very blatantly saying, at least
		
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			in their private gatherings, they were saying, we
		
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			get these reports every day.
		
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			Such child abuse cases are happening, sexual abuse
		
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			cases are happening, this case is getting so
		
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			much media hype, that it is now getting
		
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			political attention as well.
		
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			Otherwise, this is an ordinary thing.
		
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			This is a common thing.
		
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			So it's just that somebody was brave enough
		
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			to make it public and to accept that
		
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			it has happened.
		
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			It is like hats off, it usually does
		
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			not happen.
		
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			And to contain this, our education system is
		
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			to blame.
		
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			Our social system is to blame.
		
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			Our political system is to blame.
		
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			Our legal system is to blame.
		
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			Wherever we open up, there are layers and
		
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			layers and layers of corruption that needs to
		
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			be addressed.
		
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			That needs to be addressed.
		
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			As psychiatrists, we are to blame for not
		
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			playing our part in public education.
		
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			Let's be very honest in accepting that.
		
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			We, as a community of mental health professionals,
		
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			what have we done to educate people about
		
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			this, to educate ourselves first of all about
		
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			this, so we are able to actually contain
		
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			something.
		
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			Right, so we need to acknowledge that every
		
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			single...
		
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			As a nation, as a community of people,
		
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			we will not start taking individual responsibility.
		
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			That if this is happening in my society,
		
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			then somehow I am responsible.
		
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			And if life goes on as usual and
		
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			I don't do anything, nothing different in my
		
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			own family, in my own society, in my
		
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			own organization, in my own field of study,
		
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			then I am to blame.
		
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			This happened last week.
		
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			This incident happened because all the incidents that
		
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			have happened in the past, all of us
		
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			have played the blame game.
		
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			All of us...
		
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			No one has ever blamed anyone.
		
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			No one has ever blamed anyone.
		
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			Political...
		
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			Which is what he said, that there is...
		
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			One thing is that we should not talk
		
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			about such things.
		
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			There is stigma, it has become taboo.
		
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			There is sexuality.
		
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			Don't talk about it.
		
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			Keep it suppressed.
		
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			Talking about it is spreading fanaticism.
		
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			Etc.
		
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			etc.
		
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			etc.
		
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			All those things, that makes this problem a
		
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			huge problem that a lot of things are
		
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			spreading.
		
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			But then when someone wants to talk about
		
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			it, then it is sacrificed on the altar
		
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			of political ideologies.
		
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			It is just...
		
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			How will my political agenda move forward?
		
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			Should I show the other person down?
		
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			And should I show my cause and ideology
		
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			to people?
		
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			That is the real deal.
		
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			And the problem remains.
		
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			Actually, it gets worse.
		
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			It gets worse.
		
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			So...
		
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			We need to, as a community, identify that
		
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			I, as an individual, and the field that
		
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			I represent, the institution that I represent, what
		
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			role have I played?
		
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			How have we gone wrong?
		
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			Where have we gone?
		
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			And until we start doing that, this problem
		
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			is...
		
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			It threatens to go from bad to worse.
		
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			It threatens to go from bad to worse.
		
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			What happened after the Zainab incident?
		
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			Isn't there child sexual abuse in Pakistan?
		
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			Are children safe in Pakistan?
		
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			But where is that?
		
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			I went on TV when that happened.
		
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			Now the media doesn't talk about it anymore.
		
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			Now it's no longer an interesting case.
		
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			It's no longer...
		
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			It doesn't get you an audience anymore.
		
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			Nobody is talking...
		
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			Earlier, everyone was talking about how to save
		
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			children from child sexual abuse and what we
		
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			have to do.
		
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			And when I went to a live TV
		
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			show, they said, we will now commit, we
		
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			will be aware of this.
		
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			And a series of shows...
		
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			Nothing happened.
		
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			Nothing happened.
		
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			The commitments they made live, none of that
		
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			played out.
		
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			This hype is going to die and everyone
		
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			is going to blame everyone else and be
		
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			satisfied that we have done what we had
		
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			to do and nothing is going to be
		
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			different.
		
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			Women are not going to be any safer
		
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			in this situation, in this scenario.
		
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			Those people who have been going through these
		
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			type of incidents.
		
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			And we see in our practice that there
		
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			are a lot of people who are being
		
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			abused by their extended family members or even
		
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			family members.
		
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			And this is not something rare, the kind
		
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			of people we see.
		
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			So, what should we do, considering...
		
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			Because, as we said, this is just the
		
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			tip of the iceberg.
		
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			And there are a lot of things that
		
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			are not reported and they remain inside.
		
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			So, what should they do, considering the social
		
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			structure, the family structure, this might very well
		
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			happen that they don't get support from there.
		
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			Even they will be...
		
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			They will get resistance from there.
		
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			So, how do they come forward?
		
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			I think it is going to vary case
		
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			to case, as we said.
		
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			We need to understand that this always happens
		
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			in an environment where the perpetrator is confident
		
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			that they will get away with it.
		
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			That they will get away with it.
		
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			And where do they get this confidence from?
		
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			They get this confidence that the victim will
		
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			not speak up.
		
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			He will not complain.
		
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			He will not tell anyone.
		
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			He will not tell any other authority that
		
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			someone who is in a stronger position than
		
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			the perpetrator in the power spectrum should not
		
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			reach out to him.
		
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			So, the perpetrator looks at themselves as in
		
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			that particular environment strong enough to get away
		
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			with.
		
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			The victim is not going to speak up.
		
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			Definitely not speak up to the effect of
		
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			getting their voice heard by somebody who can
		
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			do something.
		
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			Right?
		
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			So, before we talk about what the victim
		
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			needs to be doing the people who have
		
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			that authority and power in their family needs
		
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			to be aware that this is not just
		
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			a possible it may even be very likely
		
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			that in their authority area somebody is doing
		
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			it.
		
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			And whoever whether it is a boy or
		
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			a girl or a woman they need to
		
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			have access to that authoritative figure that powerful
		
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			who can control it who can stop it.
		
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			The elders of the family whoever they are
		
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			between them and the vulnerable population who are
		
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			more likely to be abused there should not
		
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			be any barriers to communication there should not
		
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			be any barriers to talk about sexuality there
		
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			should not be any barriers they should not
		
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			have any hesitation this should be a conversation
		
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			that they should have had that the elders
		
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44
			should have had with the vulnerable population and
		
00:20:44 --> 00:20:48
			when we typically talk vulnerable population it doesn't
		
00:20:48 --> 00:20:54
			just include girls it also includes boys it
		
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57
			also includes boys and it does include women
		
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59
			of course as well so there is no
		
00:20:59 --> 00:21:03
			communication barrier they shouldn't hesitate they shouldn't do
		
00:21:03 --> 00:21:05
			that but we know like you said looking
		
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07
			at our family structure looking at our social
		
00:21:07 --> 00:21:12
			structure we refuse to learn we will say
		
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15
			all this we will tell we will repeat
		
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19
			that these conversations should happen there should not
		
00:21:19 --> 00:21:26
			be an obstacle that's not an obstacle it's
		
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29
			an excuse it is an excuse that we
		
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31
			are using to not have these conversations yet
		
00:21:31 --> 00:21:35
			for some reason people will have these self
		
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37
			-satisfying justifications in their head that it can
		
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39
			happen in the whole world but not in
		
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42
			my house with my sister with my daughter
		
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45
			it can't happen I don't know why we
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:51
			have this this self-satisfying sense where they
		
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53
			are not going to have these conversations so
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55
			yes we have to reach out to the
		
00:21:55 --> 00:22:00
			victims and say that you need to find
		
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03
			someone you can talk to that you can
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:10
			trust whoever is in your family who may
		
00:22:10 --> 00:22:15
			not be able to stop it perhaps if
		
00:22:15 --> 00:22:19
			it is an ongoing continuous process but at
		
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22
			least you get some level of support ideally
		
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25
			reach out to someone who can stop it
		
00:22:25 --> 00:22:28
			reach out to someone who can stop it
		
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32
			and side by side reach out to a
		
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36
			professional however possible reach out to a mental
		
00:22:36 --> 00:22:41
			health professional to see that if that has
		
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43
			happened in the past hopefully you have been
		
00:22:43 --> 00:22:50
			able to stop it somehow what psychological effects
		
00:22:50 --> 00:22:51
			has it had?
		
00:22:52 --> 00:22:57
			to talk about them to address them you
		
00:22:57 --> 00:22:59
			need to be reaching out you need to
		
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03
			be reaching out but before that perhaps I
		
00:23:03 --> 00:23:06
			am jumping the gun but before that you
		
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09
			need to find that voice to stop it
		
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12
			from happening to say no to say no
		
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15
			and that is going to be hard so
		
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18
			gather whatever support you can get wherever you
		
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21
			get support there is evil in the society
		
00:23:21 --> 00:23:25
			but there is good as well we need
		
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27
			to try to reach out to it as
		
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30
			much as possible so Dr. Yusuf can we
		
00:23:30 --> 00:23:36
			say you and me we are both parents
		
00:23:36 --> 00:23:43
			parents need to decide that either they are
		
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46
			going to discuss this with their children and
		
00:23:46 --> 00:23:53
			their vulnerable ones or they are going to
		
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56
			suffer for their whole lives they need to
		
00:23:56 --> 00:24:04
			decide that we our self imposed and fake
		
00:24:04 --> 00:24:09
			kind of I would say not fake but
		
00:24:10 --> 00:24:16
			harmful kind of shame we need to talk
		
00:24:16 --> 00:24:22
			about that might very well save the lives
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:28
			of their loved ones absolutely we know the
		
00:24:28 --> 00:24:34
			cases we see the cases we see of
		
00:24:34 --> 00:24:40
			abuse as children or as adults the psychological
		
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44
			harm of abuse is in its place definitely
		
00:24:44 --> 00:24:53
			but more than that after disclosure the family
		
00:24:53 --> 00:25:01
			reaction that is the psychological harm if it
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:10
			happens and by risking their lives that's what
		
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13
			that child is going through at that time
		
00:25:13 --> 00:25:18
			or even an adult tells an adult or
		
00:25:18 --> 00:25:25
			tells then the reaction is heard if they
		
00:25:25 --> 00:25:27
			are going through this for weeks or months
		
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32
			and finally they tell their mother let's say
		
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35
			and she gets the answer you must have
		
00:25:35 --> 00:25:42
			done something it was your fault I mean
		
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47
			and that's the reaction that unfortunately our society
		
00:25:47 --> 00:25:52
			when somebody the survivor of this incident was
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55
			brave enough to come out with what had
		
00:25:55 --> 00:26:00
			happened the same blame pointing fingers back at
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03
			her it was her fault for doing this
		
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06
			she should have taken more precautions she should
		
00:26:06 --> 00:26:10
			have it's no different and that's more traumatic
		
00:26:11 --> 00:26:16
			than the incident itself that in your defensive
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:22
			attributions that to me or to someone to
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:26
			me should I start talking about others in
		
00:26:26 --> 00:26:30
			such a way that I get satisfaction my
		
00:26:30 --> 00:26:36
			anxiety gets quenched that she did this mistake
		
00:26:36 --> 00:26:39
			which I don't do that's why this happened
		
00:26:39 --> 00:26:44
			to her right so that's that's how twisted
		
00:26:44 --> 00:26:48
			that reaction and that makes matters worse we
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50
			don't have to wait for an incident we
		
00:26:50 --> 00:26:51
			don't have to wait we have to create
		
00:26:51 --> 00:26:57
			that culture that those conversations are taking place
		
00:26:57 --> 00:27:02
			in the context of culture with proper conduct
		
00:27:02 --> 00:27:09
			proper we have morals, we have values while
		
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12
			taking care of values and morals these conversations
		
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14
			need to be had these conversations need to
		
00:27:14 --> 00:27:18
			happen whichever code of conduct we follow whichever
		
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21
			source of morality we have whichever religion we
		
00:27:21 --> 00:27:23
			have we will come to know that the
		
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28
			elders of that religion did not hesitate at
		
00:27:28 --> 00:27:35
			all whether it's about sexuality or whatever it
		
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37
			is about these things these are the fundamental
		
00:27:37 --> 00:27:39
			things that they are taught Taharat is one
		
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41
			of the first things that you will learn
		
00:27:41 --> 00:27:45
			if you read any Fiqh book there is
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:50
			no hesitation how have we created this that
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:55
			we are doing good and not talking about
		
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57
			these things we can't wait for incidents to
		
00:27:57 --> 00:28:03
			happen Yusuf, one more reaction usually comes from
		
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06
			family members and our patients tell us many
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:13
			times that if you are saying that you
		
00:28:13 --> 00:28:16
			are being abused for 4 or 5 years
		
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20
			so why are you coming out now there
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23
			might be something else that you are being
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:24
			abused for 4 or 5 years which is
		
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28
			something else which is a gain which is
		
00:28:28 --> 00:28:30
			in your eyes that's why you are saying
		
00:28:30 --> 00:28:38
			this doubting their narrative this is also one
		
00:28:38 --> 00:28:46
			thing that all of us people once they
		
00:28:46 --> 00:28:51
			are trapped they always think about this the
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:57
			first question is why now there might be
		
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00
			something that you both were involved and now
		
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03
			the relationship has gone bad and now you
		
00:29:03 --> 00:29:08
			are saying this again we have to be
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:16
			very mindful that looking at society's standards looking
		
00:29:16 --> 00:29:23
			at society's power structures the one who is
		
00:29:23 --> 00:29:29
			more privileged the one who is more authoritative
		
00:29:30 --> 00:29:35
			is should share the brunt of the blame
		
00:29:36 --> 00:29:42
			and unfortunately our dynamics are twisted we will
		
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46
			blame the kids first we will blame the
		
00:29:46 --> 00:29:56
			girls first and we have the audacity to
		
00:29:56 --> 00:30:00
			say that it is normal for men to
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:07
			do this that's absolutely unintelligible as to how
		
00:30:07 --> 00:30:13
			that's become a dynamic that's prevalent in our
		
00:30:13 --> 00:30:18
			society for men it's okay the woman is
		
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22
			always to blame the girl is always to
		
00:30:22 --> 00:30:27
			blame whereas we don't realize that the privileged
		
00:30:27 --> 00:30:34
			position which is authority, power, strength dynamics go
		
00:30:34 --> 00:30:38
			in favor of the masculine figure those should
		
00:30:38 --> 00:30:42
			lead for them to be more responsible and
		
00:30:42 --> 00:30:46
			more accountable we can't do away with that
		
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48
			if somebody is younger, if somebody is a
		
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51
			student, if somebody is then it is understood
		
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55
			that some of those power dynamics were exploited
		
00:30:55 --> 00:31:01
			some of that authority was used it was
		
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04
			that authority that was used to exploit that
		
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08
			other individual regardless of whether there was an
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11
			involvement from the other side or not so
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:13
			we do have to take that into consideration
		
00:31:13 --> 00:31:16
			and give the benefit of the doubt to
		
00:31:16 --> 00:31:21
			the person who has broken that silence under
		
00:31:21 --> 00:31:24
			which they have suffered this explanation why didn't
		
00:31:24 --> 00:31:27
			you speak for so many years it's not
		
00:31:27 --> 00:31:32
			easy to speak have you given that space
		
00:31:32 --> 00:31:37
			that comfort for them to immediately come to
		
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39
			you and talk to you after the first
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:44
			incident happens do they even have that mental
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:50
			state when the first incident happens it's absolutely
		
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54
			inexplicable for them what happened they are so
		
00:31:54 --> 00:31:58
			confused for the longest time to be able
		
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00
			to make sense of it and before the
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:04
			society starts blaming them, they have already started
		
00:32:04 --> 00:32:08
			blaming themselves a false kind of guilt has
		
00:32:08 --> 00:32:12
			already been activated so we are dealing with
		
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15
			a lot of complications here and we are
		
00:32:15 --> 00:32:20
			not making matters easy by further blaming the
		
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23
			victims and giving the perpetrators a clean sheet
		
00:32:23 --> 00:32:28
			and Yusuf even if there was a relationship
		
00:32:28 --> 00:32:33
			that doesn't allow if one person wants to
		
00:32:33 --> 00:32:35
			end the relationship then the other person blackmails
		
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38
			him and exploits him for the next 2
		
00:32:38 --> 00:32:46
			-3 years absolutely that has to be if
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:50
			another person is now reaching out for help
		
00:32:50 --> 00:32:56
			rather than helping we have we have led
		
00:32:56 --> 00:32:58
			for them to believe that you don't have
		
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00
			a way out, which is what leads to
		
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02
			a lot of self-harm and suicide if
		
00:33:02 --> 00:33:08
			no one else wants to help then so
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:17
			be it so be it we have a
		
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20
			question I think this is an important question
		
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23
			that we should take on how does one
		
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26
			help someone deal with that when their whole
		
00:33:26 --> 00:33:32
			abusive experience is being denied yes Azam so
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:39
			first of all if someone's account is being
		
00:33:39 --> 00:33:44
			denied if the denial is from one family
		
00:33:44 --> 00:33:48
			member then you that person should go to
		
00:33:48 --> 00:33:51
			another family member and if it is from
		
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54
			another family member then the third family member
		
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58
			even I would say that it is better
		
00:33:58 --> 00:34:03
			to tell your people outside your nuclear family
		
00:34:03 --> 00:34:07
			than being getting abused for a long time
		
00:34:08 --> 00:34:36
			but but but but but but but
		
00:34:38 --> 00:35:09
			but but but but
		
00:35:09 --> 00:35:09
			but but but but but but but but
		
00:35:09 --> 00:35:31
			but but but but but but but
		
00:35:37 --> 00:35:39
			but but but but but but but but
		
00:35:39 --> 00:36:08
			but but but but
		
00:36:08 --> 00:36:26
			but but but but
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:39
			but but but but
		
00:36:39 --> 00:36:52
			but but but but but
		
00:36:52 --> 00:37:06
			but but
		
00:37:06 --> 00:37:11
			but but but And that is the big
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:11
			one.
		
00:37:41 --> 00:37:46
			Acknowledging their suffering, acknowledging their pain, and trying
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49
			to establish, especially in the case of children,
		
00:37:50 --> 00:37:54
			that there is absolutely no blame on you.
		
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57
			There is absolutely no blame on you.
		
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00
			Of course, even if it's not children, the
		
00:38:00 --> 00:38:02
			case is pretty clear in front of you
		
00:38:02 --> 00:38:05
			as to who should have been the one
		
00:38:05 --> 00:38:05
			to blame.
		
00:38:06 --> 00:38:09
			You have to be very clear that you
		
00:38:09 --> 00:38:15
			are addressing that false guilt as best as
		
00:38:15 --> 00:38:15
			possible.
		
00:38:15 --> 00:38:19
			Azam, there is a question here that our
		
00:38:19 --> 00:38:21
			system is inefficient.
		
00:38:22 --> 00:38:24
			Our authorities are unreliable.
		
00:38:25 --> 00:38:28
			They themselves are involved in victim blaming.
		
00:38:30 --> 00:38:36
			Rather, from what we are shown, from what
		
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39
			we are told, at least in this incident,
		
00:38:40 --> 00:38:43
			there was some level of active involvement allegedly.
		
00:38:43 --> 00:38:51
			So, given that consideration, people don't trust those
		
00:38:51 --> 00:38:55
			institutions or those authorities to take their issues
		
00:38:55 --> 00:38:56
			to them.
		
00:38:56 --> 00:38:56
			What then?
		
00:39:00 --> 00:39:00
			Absolutely.
		
00:39:00 --> 00:39:06
			This concern is legitimate and this is very
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:06
			serious.
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:12
			But, having said that, if there is an
		
00:39:12 --> 00:39:14
			incident that has happened on behalf of a
		
00:39:14 --> 00:39:18
			family member, that's why we are saying repeatedly
		
00:39:18 --> 00:39:20
			to involve the family first.
		
00:39:21 --> 00:39:26
			So that someone in the family, some authority
		
00:39:26 --> 00:39:29
			figure in the family, leads the matter.
		
00:39:29 --> 00:39:35
			And that authority figure should be someone you
		
00:39:35 --> 00:39:36
			can trust.
		
00:39:36 --> 00:39:39
			But the incidents like this, the motorway incident,
		
00:39:40 --> 00:39:42
			yes, we have authorities like this.
		
00:39:43 --> 00:39:48
			But I cannot think of any substitute because
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:52
			we are living here.
		
00:39:52 --> 00:39:58
			The issues in the authorities, their repair, that
		
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00
			is a different matter.
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:02
			And we have to continue that as well.
		
00:40:03 --> 00:40:09
			But inform the authorities and at least now
		
00:40:09 --> 00:40:13
			we can say that use this medium, the
		
00:40:13 --> 00:40:17
			social medium, that it should be used as
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:24
			bluntly or as vigorously as possible to pressurize
		
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26
			the authorities.
		
00:40:26 --> 00:40:30
			So that there is some considerable activity there
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:31
			as well.
		
00:40:31 --> 00:40:35
			But yes, authorities are not efficient, they are
		
00:40:35 --> 00:40:39
			complicit in all this situation.
		
00:40:40 --> 00:40:46
			But I cannot think of any alternative because
		
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48
			we are living here.
		
00:40:48 --> 00:40:49
			Absolutely.
		
00:40:50 --> 00:40:55
			As far as corruption goes, doctors are not
		
00:40:55 --> 00:40:55
			free from corruption.
		
00:40:57 --> 00:40:58
			Right.
		
00:40:59 --> 00:41:03
			But when you are ill, you can't go
		
00:41:03 --> 00:41:08
			to a barber or a butcher simply because
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:09
			doctors are corrupt.
		
00:41:10 --> 00:41:12
			Yeah, there is a lot of involvement of
		
00:41:12 --> 00:41:15
			pharmaceutical companies in medical practice.
		
00:41:15 --> 00:41:16
			We stop going to doctors.
		
00:41:18 --> 00:41:20
			We have to trust.
		
00:41:21 --> 00:41:23
			We don't have a choice.
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:28
			There are good people.
		
00:41:29 --> 00:41:37
			So as ineffective, inefficient, corrupt as our police
		
00:41:37 --> 00:41:38
			may be.
		
00:41:40 --> 00:41:45
			We have to trust that there are good
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:46
			people there as well.
		
00:41:47 --> 00:41:51
			We cannot take that same stance or same
		
00:41:51 --> 00:41:56
			attitude that we take a political stand against
		
00:41:56 --> 00:41:58
			all the authorities.
		
00:41:59 --> 00:42:00
			Then what will we do?
		
00:42:01 --> 00:42:02
			Are we anarchists?
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:05
			We are in the process of promoting anarchy.
		
00:42:06 --> 00:42:07
			We are in the process of bringing our
		
00:42:07 --> 00:42:08
			own substitute.
		
00:42:09 --> 00:42:09
			We are in the process of becoming an
		
00:42:09 --> 00:42:10
			authority.
		
00:42:11 --> 00:42:12
			What can we do?
		
00:42:12 --> 00:42:15
			We acknowledge that there is corruption.
		
00:42:15 --> 00:42:19
			We raise a voice against that corruption and
		
00:42:19 --> 00:42:21
			we do whatever it is that we possibly
		
00:42:21 --> 00:42:22
			can to eradicate that.
		
00:42:24 --> 00:42:29
			But that has to be effective or that
		
00:42:29 --> 00:42:32
			can only be effective if you have support
		
00:42:32 --> 00:42:33
			from within that institution.
		
00:42:34 --> 00:42:38
			If we label all those institutions and say
		
00:42:38 --> 00:42:40
			that they are all like this, then what
		
00:42:40 --> 00:42:41
			are we going to do?
		
00:42:43 --> 00:42:45
			Emotions are in their place.
		
00:42:45 --> 00:42:51
			But we look to create as positive an
		
00:42:51 --> 00:42:55
			impact as we possibly can without going to
		
00:42:55 --> 00:42:59
			emotional extremes, as emotional as the situation may
		
00:42:59 --> 00:43:00
			be.
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:09
			Okay, so there was another question related to
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:10
			this.
		
00:43:10 --> 00:43:16
			Our institutions, our authorities, whether they are law
		
00:43:16 --> 00:43:23
			enforcement authorities, police or judiciary for that matter.
		
00:43:23 --> 00:43:30
			How much are they in need of an
		
00:43:30 --> 00:43:33
			awareness of psychology, of mental health?
		
00:43:35 --> 00:43:37
			Definitely, it must not be easy.
		
00:43:38 --> 00:43:41
			If they see such cases every day and
		
00:43:41 --> 00:43:50
			see corruption and sexual abuse, murder, all of
		
00:43:50 --> 00:43:55
			these things tend to become a norm for
		
00:43:55 --> 00:43:56
			them.
		
00:43:57 --> 00:44:00
			Shouldn't they be getting some sort of mental
		
00:44:00 --> 00:44:00
			health?
		
00:44:04 --> 00:44:11
			Yes, Yusuf Bhai, I think
		
00:44:11 --> 00:44:18
			in all our institutions, especially the law enforcing
		
00:44:18 --> 00:44:22
			institutions and even for that matter every institution.
		
00:44:29 --> 00:44:36
			Even in those institutions, we hear news that
		
00:44:36 --> 00:44:40
			sexual misconduct incidents are reported.
		
00:44:40 --> 00:44:47
			So, first of all, in any workplace where
		
00:44:47 --> 00:44:51
			people are working together, there should be some
		
00:44:51 --> 00:44:57
			sort of sexual misconduct education or awareness or
		
00:44:57 --> 00:44:57
			training.
		
00:44:58 --> 00:45:02
			That should be compulsory in any institute.
		
00:45:02 --> 00:45:03
			Whether it is a school or a college.
		
00:45:05 --> 00:45:09
			Two months ago, we saw an incident of
		
00:45:09 --> 00:45:13
			multiple incidents of harassment from teachers.
		
00:45:14 --> 00:45:18
			So, first of all, sexual misconduct should be
		
00:45:18 --> 00:45:22
			avoided and if it happens, how to report
		
00:45:22 --> 00:45:22
			it.
		
00:45:23 --> 00:45:26
			This should be done.
		
00:45:27 --> 00:45:32
			You asked about the police, the judiciary and
		
00:45:32 --> 00:45:33
			these people.
		
00:45:34 --> 00:45:37
			I would say that in a larger society,
		
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42
			we need an ongoing dialogue about these types
		
00:45:42 --> 00:45:43
			of events.
		
00:45:46 --> 00:45:49
			As you said in the beginning, when there
		
00:45:49 --> 00:45:51
			is an incident, it goes on for 5
		
00:45:51 --> 00:45:57
			-7 days and then the political TV shows
		
00:45:57 --> 00:45:58
			start again.
		
00:45:59 --> 00:46:06
			So, I would not agree that there should
		
00:46:06 --> 00:46:08
			be such training in those institutions only.
		
00:46:08 --> 00:46:09
			In Judiciary, Police.
		
00:46:11 --> 00:46:15
			There should be some sort of awareness in
		
00:46:15 --> 00:46:17
			the larger society.
		
00:46:19 --> 00:46:19
			Absolutely right.
		
00:46:20 --> 00:46:24
			So, we work towards general awareness.
		
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27
			Sorry, heavy, I said that.
		
00:46:27 --> 00:46:32
			But yes, the institutes that are directly dealing
		
00:46:32 --> 00:46:32
			with them.
		
00:46:33 --> 00:46:42
			Police, Judiciary, Emergency Doctors, Forensic Specialists and I
		
00:46:42 --> 00:46:44
			would say Psychologists and Psychiatrists.
		
00:46:45 --> 00:46:48
			In your and my 4 years of FCPS
		
00:46:48 --> 00:46:51
			training, how much have we been told how
		
00:46:51 --> 00:46:52
			to deal with such incidents?
		
00:46:54 --> 00:46:55
			How to deal with such survivors?
		
00:46:56 --> 00:46:58
			You know this, I know this.
		
00:46:58 --> 00:47:02
			Our standard training is not going to be
		
00:47:02 --> 00:47:05
			a part beyond a very superficial question at
		
00:47:05 --> 00:47:06
			best.
		
00:47:06 --> 00:47:12
			It is unless there was somebody in your
		
00:47:12 --> 00:47:16
			institute who was passionate about the subject and
		
00:47:16 --> 00:47:21
			would want there to be some sort of
		
00:47:21 --> 00:47:23
			contribution that they could make.
		
00:47:24 --> 00:47:28
			We were fortunate enough that Dr. Ayesha Minhas
		
00:47:28 --> 00:47:30
			was the Head of Child Psychiatry.
		
00:47:31 --> 00:47:35
			She was leading the campaign Ankahi, Child Sexual
		
00:47:35 --> 00:47:36
			Abuse Awareness.
		
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40
			And we did realize that in working for
		
00:47:40 --> 00:47:43
			that campaign and preparing for that campaign and
		
00:47:43 --> 00:47:45
			getting out our programs and workshops, there is
		
00:47:45 --> 00:47:48
			so much that we got to learn which
		
00:47:48 --> 00:47:50
			is not a part of our standard training.
		
00:47:51 --> 00:47:52
			Which is not a part of our standard.
		
00:47:53 --> 00:47:54
			And we know.
		
00:47:55 --> 00:47:57
			We talk about other institutions.
		
00:47:59 --> 00:48:02
			Police and Judiciary, they should take mental health
		
00:48:02 --> 00:48:03
			seriously.
		
00:48:04 --> 00:48:07
			How many Psychiatrists do they have access to?
		
00:48:07 --> 00:48:10
			How many Psychologists do they have access to?
		
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12
			What is the level of training and qualification
		
00:48:12 --> 00:48:15
			that those Psychiatrists, Psychologists have next to nothing?
		
00:48:16 --> 00:48:21
			But before offering them any sort of help
		
00:48:21 --> 00:48:25
			or support as a community, us as Psychiatrists,
		
00:48:26 --> 00:48:29
			we could not give that support to our
		
00:48:29 --> 00:48:29
			medical fraternity.
		
00:48:30 --> 00:48:32
			Our medical fraternity will not take us seriously.
		
00:48:32 --> 00:48:38
			How seriously did the class of 1st year
		
00:48:38 --> 00:48:40
			or 2nd year in Rawalpindi Medical College or
		
00:48:40 --> 00:48:43
			King Edward Medical College for that matter and
		
00:48:43 --> 00:48:46
			Medical Universities, how seriously did they take Behavioural
		
00:48:46 --> 00:48:46
			Sciences?
		
00:48:48 --> 00:48:50
			How seriously did they take their Psychiatry Award?
		
00:48:52 --> 00:48:54
			How seriously did the classes of Psychiatry Awards
		
00:48:54 --> 00:48:57
			and Behavioural Sciences take these subjects, these social
		
00:48:57 --> 00:48:57
			problems?
		
00:48:59 --> 00:49:05
			So we have layers upon layers of crises
		
00:49:05 --> 00:49:11
			that unfortunately, the more we scratch, the more
		
00:49:11 --> 00:49:16
			we dig, the more the problems come up.
		
00:49:16 --> 00:49:18
			The more the problems come up.
		
00:49:18 --> 00:49:19
			But, yeah, we start talking about it.
		
00:49:19 --> 00:49:22
			We start doing whatever is in our capacity
		
00:49:22 --> 00:49:24
			to identify.
		
00:49:24 --> 00:49:26
			Like I said, and I'm going to say
		
00:49:26 --> 00:49:29
			it again, every single one of us is
		
00:49:29 --> 00:49:30
			responsible that this happened.
		
00:49:31 --> 00:49:32
			And as long as we don't realize this,
		
00:49:33 --> 00:49:35
			things are not going to be different.
		
00:49:36 --> 00:49:37
			Things are not going to be different.
		
00:49:38 --> 00:49:40
			Azam, there is another question that is coming
		
00:49:40 --> 00:49:40
			around.
		
00:49:40 --> 00:49:42
			Again, the same thing that we said earlier
		
00:49:42 --> 00:49:48
			that there are * survivors who have lit
		
00:49:48 --> 00:49:50
			themselves on fire in front of police stations
		
00:49:50 --> 00:49:51
			and have not gotten justice.
		
00:49:52 --> 00:49:57
			Then in this situation, one thing that I
		
00:49:57 --> 00:50:00
			can I can possibly think of that there
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:08
			are organizations, NGOs, who work on these issues,
		
00:50:09 --> 00:50:13
			who exist for these purposes.
		
00:50:15 --> 00:50:17
			Sahil and Roseanne are two organizations straight off
		
00:50:17 --> 00:50:19
			the top of my head that I can
		
00:50:19 --> 00:50:19
			identify.
		
00:50:20 --> 00:50:25
			They have made child sexual abuse one of
		
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28
			their, that is the main issue that they
		
00:50:28 --> 00:50:31
			address and look to help people with.
		
00:50:31 --> 00:50:34
			Whether it's about awareness or whether it's about
		
00:50:34 --> 00:50:36
			giving them legal assistance.
		
00:50:38 --> 00:50:40
			And I'm sure there's others as well.
		
00:50:40 --> 00:50:44
			So what we have to realize is that
		
00:50:44 --> 00:50:47
			then it is going to happen at an
		
00:50:47 --> 00:50:47
			NGO level.
		
00:50:48 --> 00:50:50
			And when it happens at an NGO level,
		
00:50:50 --> 00:50:52
			we will find that even after being at
		
00:50:52 --> 00:50:59
			the NGO level, NGOs have to cooperate with
		
00:50:59 --> 00:50:59
			these institutions.
		
00:50:59 --> 00:51:02
			We have to find good people within these
		
00:51:02 --> 00:51:08
			institutions and try to redress this issue with
		
00:51:08 --> 00:51:08
			them.
		
00:51:10 --> 00:51:12
			There is still no way to bypass these
		
00:51:12 --> 00:51:12
			institutions.
		
00:51:14 --> 00:51:20
			We still find ourselves going back to trying
		
00:51:20 --> 00:51:24
			to help or find help from within that
		
00:51:24 --> 00:51:24
			institution.
		
00:51:26 --> 00:51:26
			Yeah.
		
00:51:28 --> 00:51:33
			OK, so I think this is most of
		
00:51:33 --> 00:51:36
			what we said we would talk about.
		
00:51:36 --> 00:51:38
			Again, it is not an exhaustive discussion.
		
00:51:40 --> 00:51:43
			We could barely scratch the surface on some
		
00:51:43 --> 00:51:47
			of the issues that we felt were important.
		
00:51:47 --> 00:51:50
			If there is other issues that other questions
		
00:51:50 --> 00:51:52
			that people may have, they can feel free
		
00:51:52 --> 00:51:53
			to reach out to us.
		
00:51:53 --> 00:51:56
			As far as we are concerned, as far
		
00:51:56 --> 00:52:00
			as Saik Baithak is concerned, we are going
		
00:52:00 --> 00:52:02
			to continue to bring this up time and
		
00:52:02 --> 00:52:03
			time again.
		
00:52:04 --> 00:52:06
			We're not going to wait for an incident
		
00:52:06 --> 00:52:07
			to happen.
		
00:52:10 --> 00:52:13
			Around next month, we do have a plan
		
00:52:13 --> 00:52:17
			of having a program with Dr. Ayesha Minhas,
		
00:52:18 --> 00:52:22
			in particular, about child sexual abuse, to raise
		
00:52:22 --> 00:52:26
			awareness about it and to discuss all its
		
00:52:26 --> 00:52:26
			dimensions.
		
00:52:28 --> 00:52:31
			And we will probably do that again and
		
00:52:31 --> 00:52:34
			again and again as much as we possibly
		
00:52:34 --> 00:52:34
			can.
		
00:52:34 --> 00:52:37
			Bring all the different aspects of the subject
		
00:52:37 --> 00:52:40
			out in the public and not shy away
		
00:52:40 --> 00:52:42
			from having those conversations.
		
00:52:42 --> 00:52:46
			Those of you who have concerns related to
		
00:52:46 --> 00:52:48
			the issue, feel free to reach out.
		
00:52:48 --> 00:52:52
			Contact me, Aazam, either one of us, and
		
00:52:52 --> 00:52:57
			we will do what we can to help
		
00:52:57 --> 00:52:57
			and guide, Inshallah.
		
00:52:59 --> 00:52:59
			OK.
		
00:52:59 --> 00:53:02
			OK, Aazam, so we call it a day.
		
00:53:03 --> 00:53:05
			Thank you very much, everyone, for watching, listening.
		
00:53:06 --> 00:53:07
			If there is anything that you found that
		
00:53:07 --> 00:53:09
			was beneficial from here, feel free to clip
		
00:53:09 --> 00:53:12
			it out and share it with people who
		
00:53:12 --> 00:53:14
			you think would benefit from it.
		
00:53:15 --> 00:53:16
			Thank you all.
		
00:53:17 --> 00:53:20
			Until next week, this is Yusuf and Aazam.
		
00:53:20 --> 00:53:22
			We are signing off from Saik Baithak.
		
00:53:23 --> 00:53:23
			Assalamu alaikum.