Yassir Fazaga – Islamic Perspective on Domestic Abuse

			Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. Welcome,
everyone. Thank you for joining us tonight for another episode or another
		

			program of chai, Chai talk. And Chai conversations are supposed to be very casual, laid back
		

			conversation conversations about different topics. Right. And we we are in the month of October and
the month of October since the late 80s. Right was declared to be National Domestic Violence
Awareness Month. Right. And here in the state of Tennessee is also recognized as Domestic Violence
Awareness Month. And I think every year the governor issued a proclamation, designating or
acknowledging the month of
		

			the month of October to be Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And in and I was surprised to find out
that it was only in 2012, that state of Tennessee established the Family Justice Center, welcome
chef Yasser to the program, we're very, very fortunate actually, in the community to have a resource
or a resource like CFCs. And so you don't have to. So I'll have to let you know, thank you for
accepting the invitation on a short notice.
		

			That I'm about to go to Jack Malloy here. It is good to be with you. And thank you for doing this
program.
		

			And remember that
		

			a good a good community is not a problem free community. That's not what makes us good.
		

			What makes us a good community is that we become a community that is aware of its challenges of its
issues. And then develop both the humility and the courage
		

			to acknowledge to address these issues. And then ultimately, and eventually to find the tools as to
how do we go about fixing these challenges, and these issues that were brought up.
		

			And remember that any community can say whatever they want about, as they say, it's not, you know,
how good a community is, is not to be determined by the self congratulatory statements that that
community makes about itself, because any community would want to speak highly of itself. A good
community say that is the community that speaks on behalf of those who are potentially voiceless, on
both on behalf of those who can potentially be exploited, oppressed, and nobody speaks on their
behalf. And that is why I'm always amazed by the idea that the Quran makes taking care of an orphan
a focal point.
		

			And the author is just representative of those who can be most exploited, and also potentially
voiceless members in our community. So the Quran says, you know, a community is good, when the
community is not afraid to be the voice of those who are who are voiceless. So I commend our masjid,
for doing these types of programs, not as a form of condemnation on our members. But rather, because
silence is no longer an option.
		

			As Dr. King said, that silence is the worst type of betrayal, you cannot be aware that these issues
are happening in our midst. And yet you choose not to speak not to speak about them. So I really,
really, you know, want to appreciate those who are present here. And then one final Lord also is the
way that you measure whether these events are successful or not, is not by the number of people who
attend these events. That is not how you know, an event is being good or not. Granted, it would be
nice to have more people regarding these topics. And of course, we welcome our viewers who are
joining us online as well. But we also want to make sure also, that we do not use numbers as the
		

			only metric to gauge whether an event has been successful or not like to share the story of the
sage, who was invited to speak in a gathering in a conference and people have been advertising for
it. And on the day of the event. The number of people who showed up was it
		

			very small number of people. And the organizers were disappointed by the number of people who showed
up. The wise man knew what was going through their head. So he said, people he said, Do not be
disappointed by your numbers, we are not looking for numbers amongst our faithful, we are looking
for faith amongst our numbers.
		

			Change never took place. Because the majority wanted a change has always taken place. Because there
was a committed minority behind it. And this is what we are, this is what we're looking for. She's
not gonna hate him for coming. This this conversation is not going to be like a, as comfortable as
one needs to be in these kinds of settings. The nature of the topic itself, you know, it's a very
serious topic.
		

			So, it may not be like a very fun,
		

			you know, topic to talk about.
		

			So
		

			she has, you know, how I was,
		

			you know, it says that,
		

			over the past couple of years with a pandemic, right, that there was an increase, I forgot what what
it was some studies suggest that there was an increase of 37% in, in the number of domestic violence
cases. But before we even get there,
		

			you know, can we define what we mean by domestic violence.
		

			So usually, there are two words that are thrown around around around this topic, you're either
talking about, sometimes it's referred to as domestic abuse. And sometimes you hear the words the
word domestic violence. And the preference here is the word abuse is more comprehensive than
violence. Because there can be family members who are abused, not just necessarily physically, there
can be financial abuse that's taking place, which is very common amongst elderly people, you know,
people taking away their social security income, taking away their disability income, they really
they're not hitting them, they're not causing any physical injury to them. They're not jeopardizing
		

			their physical integrity, but there is financial abuse there is taking place, there is emotional
abuse, by questioning or by continuously threatening people that you're going to leave them. That is
a common one. And unfortunately, also that help that happens against the elderly, especially when
they find themselves, you know, towards the end stages of their lives, and they're very dependent,
and somebody is constantly threatening that they are going to leave them or that they're going to
send them away. That is a form of abuse. It may not be physically violent in nature, but it is
absolutely a form of abuse. So when we speak about physical violence, domestic violence, we are
		

			talking about behaviors and actions that lead to some kind of jeopardizing the physical well being
of the people at home, could be children, it could be partners, it could be husbands, wives and
spouses. What have you. So sometimes the preferred term is domestic abuse rather than domestic
violence? My I guess, what I wanted to focus on is what? What distinguishes like how the word
domestic, you know, what the word domestic means? Exactly? Yep. So does that mean that the person,
does that mean that the person has to be living with you? Or? Or can they just simply be related to
you? So the assumption is that these people are actually sharing space, physical space together.
		

			That is, this is what's what's happening. Now remember, it's also criminal. And it's also a form of
abuse. It's a form of violence, to be violent against people who do not live with you. But what
we're talking about specifically in this case, is that these are people who are sharing a space on a
regular on a regular basis. And here, I think the distinction is made because supposedly a family is
a place where we feel safest, like this is this is where you come to, to feel to feel safest. You
know, this is your first line of defense. And the sad part is that the fear here is not of what
might happen to you externally. Defeat is what can potentially happen to you internally. And that is
		

			where, you know, this is this is very serious. And this is where it is absolutely the saddest
because we assume that our family members are going to be the people that we come
		

			They're going to comfort us, they're going to protect us. But unfortunately, it happens to be that
these are the very people that actually are responsible for the lack of sense of safety that we
feel. Give the example of, you know, that rap song back in the 80s, when people would speak about
police brutality. And you know, the artists was singing and addressing the police, he said, You
protect us from the criminals, but who's going to protect us from you?
		

			And now the issue is, I come home, because that is where I seek protection. But what happens if the
violence that's taking place is actually taking place at home? For our audience feel free? If you
have any question at any point, or you want more clarification, too, this is primarily for you,
those who are with us online, you're You're
		

			most welcome to ask questions. But your questions may not make it in time. So just keep that in
mind. Our tech support team Inshallah, if you see anything that you need to bring to our attention,
please let me know Inshallah, this is supposed to be again, a casual setting.
		

			So, you know, sometimes, you know, people share, obviously, when it comes to this, these kind of,
you know, events or awareness campaigns, people like to share numbers and the statistics, right? One
in every this one in every that, right? So, you know, one in every four, right? Woman is is
according to the statistics, or to the well established ones, one in every seven men, right, are
domestically abused by a family member.
		

			The question that anyone would have from a Muslim community would ask us is, well, that doesn't
apply to us. So now you have an extensive experience working on these kinds of issues within the
Muslim community. Do these statistics apply to us? Or are we the exception?
		

			See, unfortunately, it's not just about domestic violence. Remember, the Muslim Kenny, when it comes
to domestic violence, my brothers and sisters, remember, this is something that permeates all
		

			socio economic status levels, the assumption is now, or this just happens amongst poor people. Or
it's a very specific ethnic group of people that this happens towards, or you would say that it is
the uneducated, or it is the people who live in rural areas, or it is a none of this is true. This
is something that happens across the board. It breaks all religious barriers, geographical barriers,
ethnic barriers, socio economic barriers, cultural and ethnic barriers. So this happens across the
board.
		

			And usually, with these statistics, the Muslim community is not really that far off. We are where we
live. So when we hear this wishful thinking would want us to say, oh, Al Hamdulillah, you know, it's
not so much it's so. But the reality of it is we represent the society, the community that we that
we live in, yeah. Is it plus? is it minus? Allahu Allah, you know, we don't have specifics on this
is an issue, we do have this issue. Oh, by all means, and we have technology and we have to address
it, and really, you know, face it, you know, deal with it, by all means, to me, it's, you know,
whether it's 1%, or 2%, that's one too many. So, regardless of the percentage, or how common it is,
		

			if it is taken place, it is worth of being addressed, regardless of the numbers of people who are
victimized by this, by this process. So one thing that I usually do in my couples counseling, when
you you know, speak to people and obviously couples have disagreements, one of the questions that we
ask is, Does it get physical?
		

			And people say, you know, people would want to downplay it, simply because sometimes, it's
embarrassing to speak about this. It's not very easy for somebody to say, Yes, I am abused at home.
People don't find that to be very comfortable.
		

			But ultimately, eventually, these are things that do happen at home. Also remember that when we
speak about domestic violence, we're not just talking about husband and wife or the general term
here is intimate partners or people who live together. That also includes children in the process
elderly who are living at home and what have you, but it is an issue
		

			within the Muslim community,
		

			you know, one of the one of the, actually, that the governor's proclamation specifies the number of
incidents that were reported in 2020. In 2020, there are almost close to 70,000 incidents in the
state of Tennessee. Right. 90 individuals, 90 people lost their lives in a domestic violence case.
Right?
		

			And I don't know, what what, what of that percentage, you know, what was the percentage of Muslims,
you know, from from within that, but have you in your own experience? Have you seen any examples?
Can you can you recall something that you would consider to be really painful to have dealt with?
Like, you wouldn't? I don't want to say, you know, you wouldn't expect it to happen within the
Muslim community, but sometimes when it has close, you know, when people see what their lack of, you
know, anger management, or their lack of, you know,
		

			I would say, you know, if they don't adhere to the Islamic principles, if they can't really control
and manage their their issues, what that could lead to, have you ever dealt with it?
		

			Many, many times, so, especially when it involves children, you have the children being removed from
home. And then what happens is that once the CPS gets involved, that's Child Protective Services. In
order for reunification to take place, people would have to go through counseling process, they
would have to go through, you know, how do you bring the families back in again, and that is when we
come in, in the capacity of therapists, especially when there are language, cultural and religious
issues, people, you know, what, you know, count on people who are culturally competent to help in
the, in the process. And that is where you get to learn about Subhan, Allah, these issues are really
		

			happening in our own households. When you see a bird person saying, You know what, it was just like,
it was just a simple, you know, I, I really didn't mean to, but it was very light, but you know how
it is in America, people make a big deal of this. And then you go to these meetings, and they have
pictures of what just happened to that child, or a sister would have a medical report from the ER,
of what that husband did to her, for example, but then when people speak, they downplayed and say,
Subhan Allah. So you've got you have these issues, you have these stories, and handle Alhamdulillah.
I wouldn't say that these are like the most common stories, but remember it, this is human behavior.
		

			Okay. So like I said, wishful thinking would want us to, to believe that it does not happen to the
Muslims. But it really does happen to the Muslims, where people were in the ER, because he kicked
her so hard that he broke one of her ribs ended up rupturing her lungs, and she's in the hospital,
in the Muslim community, he hit her in the head so hard, she is in concussion, for example, she
stabbed him, please remember that whenever we speak.
		

			We tend to speak of men being the perpetrators, because 85% You know, are things that are done by
men, but also remember that there 15% of domestic violence victims are actually males as well. Okay.
So you do hear these things in the clinic overall, it is under reported anyways, right? We know that
the numbers, the actual numbers must be more than what is reported. And, you know, usually, when the
victim is a male, you know, you have two things that I that really bothered me what number one is,
we smile and laugh and smirking like
		

			she broke her his, like I had a case of someone who has was too shy to tell people while he should
come in to tell me what broke his wrist. Eventually, it was his wife actually broke his wrist. Now,
you share a story like this and and then people will start giggling or laughing or right taking, you
know, likewise, also there are a lot of cases that are not reported because people don't want
especially if it's their, their spouse that is involved in the process. They don't want or even
their parent. They don't want that person to be taken away from them. So it's it is underreported,
but it is a serious and real issue that that exists within our community causes what leads what
		

			causes this or is there one or two or three causes or common factors that we can identify as
		

			listening. So remember before before that one, just go on
		

			back to the initial initial topic that you brought up the underreporting. In the Muslim community,
these cases and in other minorities, these cases are underreported, because people do not trust the
authority. They're afraid that if I call the police, they might end up taking my children away. We
might worst case scenario, you know, we may have the police may shoot the individual. Well, we did
have a case of someone who had actually mental health issue, had an you know, nervous breakdown, the
police was called didn't know how to handle it. And they ended up, you know, shooting the child. And
that's a possibility, where nowadays, especially minorities would say, Look, man, even if I need the
		

			help of the police, I have to think so many times before I call them before I call them in. So you
have that you have people who are afraid that they are going to be deported in case they reported,
they are afraid that if the police gets involved, and they know that this is a Muslim family, that
they would want to divide the family take their children, take the children away. Now, whether this
is a perception or reality is irrelevant. These are beliefs within our community that are leading to
having these cases to be underreported people do not want to do that. And of course, there is also
the societal pressure on women especially and that is a good woman toughs it out a good woman, a
		

			good spouse, a devout Muslim spouse, you know, would not call the police on her husband. And then
there is all this bad mouthing of women who called the police on their husband, what kind of a woman
would do that. And I tell people look, we want to make sure that we empower our sisters to do the
right thing. Whether she calls the police or not, this is going to be a decision that is made by
her. But we're not going to guilt people, we're not going to fall people for wanting to protect
themselves. That is not something that we want to promote. If a person's wellbeing is jeopardized,
if their safety and the safety of their children come in question, please, by all means, remember
		

			that there is nothing Islamically wrong with you wanting to protect yourself, or protecting your
loved one.
		

			What causes domestic violence, rude behavior, and mannered people, the need to control anger is
never a justification. People use it as an explanation. And even when it is an explanation, it is
not a convincing explanation in the in the process. And we believe that people do this either
because this is a learned behavior, that this is what they have seen their own parents do. Or this
is, you know, the culture that they that they grew up in is a culture that tolerated this type of
behavior, this type of behavior had no consequences where they grew up, or people who say that this
is actually a cycle that just gets perpetuated, because this is how they were dealt with. Now, this
		

			is the only way that they know how to deal, how to deal with it. And remember, when we speak about
causes, please be very careful about this. We are not looking for good reasons. This is us trying to
understand. So for example, when we do our Imam trainings, you know, one of the questions that I
asked our beloved Imams is if a sister calls you, and she reports that our husband just hit her.
What is the first appropriate question to ask?
		

			What is the answer?
		

			Anyway?
		

			What's, what is the appropriate question to ask?
		

			What's the first somebody said why?
		

			And that would want to be the last question that we ask.
		

			Because it's as if you are saying, Did he have a good reason? Yeah. You've done something to dad.
Really the implications of that? So rather than saying this, you say, are you okay?
		

			Do you need to see a doctor? Do you feel safe? Do you get do you need? Do you need help? Okay, but
asking why is actually a turn off. And that's why when we speak about the causes, we're not really
looking for the good excuses that may be offered. That's not what we're looking at. What we are
doing is that we're just trying to understand where this is coming from. Remember, there is a
difference between explanation and justification. We're not looking to justify in this. So if
somebody says this happened to me, the first question that we want to ask is
		

			Are you okay? Do you need medical attention? Do you feel safe?
		

			Do you feel safe now? And so on? There is a weak Hadith that says that you shouldn't even ask why
these kinds of cases? Yeah, it's important by Imam nawawi. In his book The other salah, he lost a
lot of humor, dada Hello, I believe it was narrated by Mr. Maha pop, where he said that you know
what? A man.
		

			A man should not be asked why he hid his wife as to why he Yeah. And in the explanation for those
who deem the Hadith to be acceptable. They say that such a behavior that is unbecoming of such a
man. They're saying that, you know, do not force a person to expose the secrets of their families,
that for them to accept the Hadith to be a sound, a sound. You know, if I may ask, it's like, you
know, you see someone doing something haram, drinking alcohol.
		

			Do you think asking them to justify that would be a good a good approach? Why are you drinking? Do
you have a good reason for drinking, for instance. So when someone does something wrong, you know,
asking them to justify it is not going to help the situation, if anything is going to make them more
defensive. And look for excuses to everybody, whenever they do something. Right. They feel justified
morally, right. So giving them that opportunity to even make a case for themselves isn't isn't
really something that's that's the if if the person is the perpetrator, but if the victim is the one
that is coming, and this happens, even most community members are concerned family members, like
		

			family members, they will you know, it's one of two reactions, how dare he does that? Right. And,
you know, they will say something that could actually aggravate the situation, or the other reaction
is, what did you do? Right. Jeff?
		

			Does anyone have any question from the audience, we have another 10 minutes to go into about 12
minutes to be precise. But there are a lot of things that I had in mind that I wanted to talk about,
but I do want to address any concerns or questions that you may have. Yes. Someone raise their hand.
		

			Yes.
		

			Somebody called you
		

			know, whatever. You said, you know, I can ask why. Okay, of course, I can ask them. Okay, I will
save all these questions. But there is a goal is to find a solution.
		

			And ask storyboards.
		

			So there are ways so the question is, this is just so that our audience who are following online can
hear what's going on? The question is, you said that if a sister calls and tells me that she, her
husband hit her, avoiding asking the question as to why checking in on her safety and so on, but she
called in to get help. So ultimately, you would have to ask the why question.
		

			As, as clinicians, we are trained, you can ask why without really asking why. Okay, you can really
say, so what happened? Rather than rather than asking why? Simple, so what happened? That would be
it. And also, in in, in addition to that, many times people would call in, and it's interesting what
the people want, after that phone conversation. So somebody would call in, and this happens, a lot
sisters would call in, and they would say, Look, my husband did one, two and three, says, are you
okay? Yes, I am. Are you safe? Yes, I am. Do you need medical attention? No, I don't. How can I be
of help to you? Would you like me to call somebody says no. So what is it that you want to do? I
		

			just want you to know.
		

			I just want you to know, sometimes people literally, all they want is somebody that they can trust
and say this happened to me. Because socially, it is very, very expensive to go on with a story like
this. You know, what's the first thing that goes away for survivors of domestic violence or victims
of domestic violence? What's the first thing that leaves them?
		

			Somebody take a guess.
		

			The first thing that leaves the
		

			self respect,
		

			self respect, share, He slapped me, spit on my face.
		

			And I was not able to do anything about it.
		

			Just think about that somebody violates you and humiliates you in such a way. And you could not even
defend yourself. At that point, their sense of self is lost, their sense of self respect is lost. Or
let's just say that it is minimal at that point, then you just like, imagine the humiliation of her
slap. And then somebody spitting on your face calling you all kinds of names. And you just stand
there, simply because you believe that there is nothing that I can do about this. And sometimes what
happens is that these people, the only thing that they have, that they're holding on to is, at least
I can tell my story to somebody.
		

			So how, you know as your, you know, shit,
		

			just to also let you know, because as a therapist as an Imam, if the recipient of the abuse is an
adult, I do not have the right to call the authorities. Unlike if it was a child, or a dependent
adult, or a senior citizen, then I am a mandated reporter. But for people who are adults, and they
do not fit any of these areas, I do not have that. Remember, we have we offer other types of of
help, of course, but ultimately, some people say I just want somebody to know, before I go to the
next point
		

			if a child witnesses,
		

			right, their parent, their grandparent, right,
		

			or a family member being physically assaulted or abused, isn't that in some states considered to be
child abuse as well? Yes. So in some states, witnessing domestic violence is a form of child abuse,
and that is the portable in some states, it is left up to the discretion of the therapist to assess
and evaluate the amount of impact that this is having on the on the on the child, but that is
usually taken on a case by case basis, but it can be very traumatizing. You know,
		

			I guess we are going to come to the part that maybe a question that some people may have.
		

			And I wanted to leave it to the to the end.
		

			Is there any does Islam? Does our religion, promote or justify any act of aggression? Against a
family member? Right? So especially obviously, the Quran is very explicit, in not allowing any type
of abuse against parents, your own parents, right? But does it allow the parent to abuse a child or
the spouse to abuse or the husband is specifically to abuse his wife? So the way that the question
is framed? The answer is an emphatic no, because you're using the word abuse. And the Quran does not
condone this type of behavior. As a parent, for example. So before, before we go into the details of
when we're going to come to the details, you would comfortably say, right, as someone that research
		

			this, you know, and and that will take, you know, she has her and I, you know, agree on a lot of
things, right? But I'm not here to basically agree with him, I'm here to ask right? Would you
comfortably say that this is something that is agreed upon that Islam does not allow, right, someone
you know, a husband to abuse his wife, or to do to take an action that reaches the level of abuse or
violence, then turns down there is really, there is no doubt about this. So there is no
justification whatsoever under okay. Now, there comes now how, where do people whether whether it's
the, you know, from the Quran, or from the prophetic tradition, or even in some other faith
		

			traditions, where do people get this notion that somehow divine command or divine revelation
condones, or allows or gives room for people, you know, abusing others. So in our case, we would say
that the verse that comes from certain Nyssa, for example, the idea of people would use that verse
in the Quran for variable Han. And when you look into the translation, the translation says, beat
them. And the word beat is a very, very violent word. So people look into that and they say, Look,
your own book, commends people or commands people, or condones domestic violence, because it's
telling spouses it's telling husbands to beat their
		

			Um, they're wise. And when you translate this way, it becomes really, really problematic when you
		

			when you do that, and by the way, you know, the idea here is in that in that verse of the, of the
Quran, if somebody does not get along with you, hitting them is only going to drive them further
away from you. hating them is not going to bring them any closer to you. So the way that I
understand the verse, Allah who are Allah, Allah subhanaw taala knows best. And of course we have
the description of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa salam Modaraba Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa
sallam in Ratan up, the Prophet of Allah never laid a hand on a woman. There is only one incident
reported by Imam Bukhari that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam one time he pushed his wife,
		

			Michelle, he got up in the middle of the night. And she he got up and he left the house. And you
know, she became concerned as to where he was going. And it turned out that the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wasallam went to the graveyard. And he prayed for the in the back layer, and he prayed for
the for the disease Muslim there. And then he turned around, and he saw a shadow. So actually, when
she saw that the Prophet Salam is coming towards her, she started walking. And then she started
walking fast. And then a person's walking faster, until she came home and she was breathing very
heavily. And then the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam said, what's going on? And when he found out
		

			that this is the
		

			this is the person that was going behind him the process, LM said, You really thought I would do
this to you people didn't really thought that I would do I would do this to you. And that's when you
know, we have the hadith of Arusha, then ask the prophets Allah wa salam, what do I say when I go to
the but this would be like the only incident that we but that enemies, we're not going to even that
doesn't constitute
		

			was reported. So what?
		

			So sometimes when people hear this, you know, we just want to make sure that look, it's nothing that
we're hiding or avoiding, like this incident really did take the take place. So you know, I have to
tell you one thing as a young Imam, one of the most, you know, I was I was very young. I was in my
early 20s When someone a sister came to me and she said, I found this hadith. How, you know, it says
that rasool was salam never had anyone with his hand, except in the battlefield and never laid a
hand on a woman or, or
		

			older.
		

			Or a me a worker, or, or a slave or a servant or a child. But there's this hadith and I had never
heard of it. And I was like, in shock. I was like, I was like sweating. I was like, nervous. I
didn't know how to handle it. And the sister was really, really, like, you know, hurt by this, you
know, this hurts me and all that. So upon further research research, I was like, wait a minute, the
first question that came to my mind was, it was the wives of the Prophet Saddam that reported he
that he never laid a hand on anyone. It was at Isha, who reported this hadith and she did not
consider that to be
		

			to be hitting. She said, He poked me in my chest, right? Well, I'm using the word poked, but the
word that she used in Arabic, can be understood as he poked me in my chest. The intent of the
prophesized Salah was not clear, was he, you know, because she was breathing, breathing heavily. And
she was like, her heart was beating fast. So when he poked her, was here promoting her, was he
trying to get her attention? Was he trying to feel his way? Because it's dark? We don't know. Right?
But I just said that I felt his hand and the pressure. And I could feel it, like I felt the pressure
of his, you know. So anyways, other than that incident, that could actually be you know,
		

			isn't it the case that when the scholars of Islam that we were not the first generation to try to
understand this verse, like when I when I look it up, when I looked it up the discussion as to what
it means, began early on during the time of the companions, right, shortly. And they have all of
these interpretations, because that means that they themselves felt conflicted about it, right.
Because they see that the prospect of in his own example, he did not do that. That was not as a
matter of fact, on one occasion, when a group of women from this hobby had came and complained that
their husbands actually physically, you know, you know,
		

			hit them, the proxies have said he took the pulpit, right. And he addressed the issue and he was he
was, he was upset and he said, my lack of a theatrical these are not the best of you, meaning these
are the worst of you who do stuff like this. Right. So the President spoke against it, he spoke out
against the inherited Wahdat
		

			Right, he was he didn't do it himself. So the scars of Islam early on, as he, as I said, didn't shy
away from trying to really understand this property. And I did not find a single one. I personally
did not find a single one that actually allows what would be considered criminally, what would what
would be considered abuse? Have you ever seen any? Yeah, no. No. And, and and the way that I would,
the way that I understand the first is that this is a physical way of trying to get somebody's
attention to how grave the issue is, say, Listen. And I would do that. And I say, look, let's talk
about this. And we sometimes we do this with one another, you know, you get to talk to the person,
		

			you get to get through to the person and instead, listen to me. To me, the verse is talking more
about elevating the level of seriousness of what is of what is going on. So for example, in some of
the translations, rather than saying, beat you'd say, tap, OK, tap for the sake of Listen, this is
this is really serious at this at this point. But I think that the the most important part here is
the explanation of the Prophet sallallahu, alayhi wasallam, is the best of explanation or we have
seen the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, never laid a hand on people. And just just in case
somebody is, is wondering, because sometimes, you know, when you have these kinds of topics and say,
		

			Why do you have two males discussing domestic violence? Why don't we have a sister? I thought of
that question, right. Those are the salah. Again, this is a conversation, we have the sisters here,
this is a conversation that our community members, men and women both equally have with the amount
is we're not here trying to lecture or talk to you, we're here to really make ourselves accessible
in a very casual, relaxed setting, so that we can honestly and openly ask, answer or address some of
your concerns or questions. So last last year, remember, also, when we had this topic comes around
October, it was actually two of our local therapists, sister souhan, Emily, who actually spoke about
		

			this, about this topic. But in this age of, you know, the need to be politically correct all the
time, just in case that comes up. We just want to say that this is this is not something that we
intentionally do in our community. But speaking of also translations, I must caution you that
translation is the attempt of the translator to
		

			to really convey to convey a meaning that they understood from the interpretation of the verse, not
even from the verse directly, right. So it is really a translation of a Tafseer of an explanation.
So it's very interesting to see if he has to say that because this caught my attention earlier, how
different translations have different
		

			you know, different words. So for instance, you have, you know, you know, Dr. Bob's translation
would say, discipline them gently, it doesn't even say anything, discipline them gently. Right.
		

			So, yeah, International, which is very also famous says, strike them lightly. Right. And then the
others have different different words. But definitely I don't, I don't see how this means,
especially when you read the interpretation, or the conditions
		

			stated by attributed to even ibis, right?
		

			It doesn't mean this, but there's something that a lot of people miss, and we'll conclude with this,
that if we go back, it says we're likely to have full on issues. The word issues would get your
attention, right. And, and in the Quran,
		

			in the same Surah,
		

			right, when Mr. Hoffman badly handle shoes and our robber, so the word begins with this state of new
shoes, right.
		

			So if you're afraid if you're dealing with a state of new shoes, then these are the steps that you
should take the last of which, under you know, serious circumstances is this controversial phrase or
controversial?
		

			statement, right. So, so if you don't mind, you know, explaining how you see the word the shoes or
the concept of new shoes. So this is this is a state where somebody's behavior is really detrimental
to the well being of the family. What they are doing is really serious, it is threatening, the well
being of the family. You speak about it, which is like the most civilized thing to do. Next thing is
that this idea of look what is going on is so serious, that the idea of being intimate while such a
thing is taking place is just not
		

			Becoming It is unacceptable. That is just another way of saying like, look, what is going on is
really, really, really serious. Then finally, because remember what the Quran is doing is the Quran
is avoiding the breaking of the family, get that person's attention by saying that look, what is
going on, is really serious. Because the next step is going to be, I can't continue doing this,
		

			doing this with you. So remember that we are not denying what the Quran is saying. We are trying to
do our best in attempting to understand in light of how the Quran talks, understand this verse, in
light of how the Prophet sal Allahu Allah Waterland willhave we are trying to understand this, this
verse, so the spirit of the deen, the example of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam does not
call for abuse whatsoever. And the idea here is to me, Allahu Allah, Allah knows best is not to
inflict physical pain on the individual, because that really does not solve the problem. If
anything, even with with with, with children, you know, you use inflicting physical pain as a form
		

			of discipline, it may work in the short, you know, short term, but in the long term, it can create a
lot of resentment. And ultimately, it will also create the rebellion.
		

			Ultimately, so to me, it's not really about inflicting physical pain, but it is about really getting
the attention of, of somebody, Allahu Allah Mala. And we can get detailed, and look at what the
scholars, you know, said and what the Sahaba said, you know, you can't strike the face, you can't
hit someone on their face, you can't cause injury, or bruise someone or when you look at all of
these things, okay, okay, then it's not, it's not what we're thinking. It's not what people try to,
you know, justify. It's not, it's none of that. But we can go we can go there, but I just want to
come back and conclude with this with the very interesting finding regarding the word in the shoes,
		

			right?
		

			translations are very interesting. And now we have more and more and more translations coming out,
you know, but and one of these translations is says indifference.
		

			And another is said, contempt, right. Now,
		

			the most common, you know, the most common or, you know, word was discord or disagreement. So, is
this is an issue is just a simple disagreement, differences of opinions, or is it something in and
of itself abusive?
		

			So, the way I understood it, again, Allah has planned out, remember, what happens is that sometimes
the Quran speaks vaguely, now that the Quran could not be more precise, but vagueness is where you
see the interpretation. So that the book remains to be organic, that you can actually, you know, it
continuously attempt to understand the book. That's why I say that shoes is any behavior that is
detrimental to the well being of the family, where both the man and the woman can be guilty off.
Because the Quran refers to the shoes is something that can happen from both. And what we understand
it without really going into the specificity of it is, look, whatever it is, it's got to be
		

			something that is detrimental jeopardizes the well being of the family. Hola, hola. Hola, nos, does
anyone have any question, but I think it more than sorry, I think it's also very important that we
keep the following in mind that in our massage it we do not condone this behavior, that our massage
it ought to be friendly to our sisters and brothers who may have experienced or gone through this.
We need to do a better job in allocating all kinds of resources to help the people who are the
victims of domestic violence. I think it's very important that we use the pulpit to speak on behalf
of those who are voiceless, because silence is really not an option. I think that sisters should not
		

			be made to feel guilty if they feel that their well being and their physical integrity and safety is
jeopardized, that it is okay for them to call the authorities if they feel threatened. Or that you
know, this is the person that has had this type of history. And and there is nothing in Islam that
says you should not be doing this. If we want to make sure that the sensor is empowered that if she
wants to make that phone call, that is absolutely fine.
		

			But she has to be the one that has that power. And that is what we are here to do. And also remember
that to the people who may be guilty of this. And again, remember, we're not necessarily saying that
all the time the perpetrators are, are men. Please remember that hitting a woman does not make you
more of a man. That is just not something that we appreciate nor encourage. I remember after one of
these hotspots, a brother came to me and he said, you know, said Sheriff, I did not realize, but for
the past 22 years, I have been very abusive. And he said, I went to my wife, and I apologized for
what I have done to her. I said, Brother, today you are more of a man than you have been for the
		

			past 22 years. Okay. And that's what we want. And that's what we want people to that's what we want
people to understand. And you know, when we when we welcome both the in our deen Allah Subhana Allah
says in surah hakavod him and almost Aloma, be there for your brother be the the recipients of
oppressors or the ones who initiate oppression? How do you help somebody who initiates oppression or
guilty of oppressions that stopped them from
		

			from doing from doing this?
		

			So
		

			Shama we're going to Inshallah, address, child abuse in the future in sha Allah in the near future.
But there is also another thing that I promised you a shout out that, in some, we're going to
address it as well in sha Allah azza wa jal, which is which is something that I see on the rise, at
least, you know, from my observation, which is parent abuse, right? Or abusing the elderly is
something that we need to really address inshallah. But until then, I ask Allah subhanaw taala to
restore peace, harmony, and love within our Muslim households and within our community,
		

			you know, within our families, may Allah subhanho wa Taala protect and preserve all of our community
members, may Allah subhanaw taala make us people who love one another for the sake of Allah and
people who spread spread and promote you know, loving each other for the sake of Allah. Remember,
Allah subhanaw taala says when what we know now when what me natural dog I'm only held up believing
men and believing women are protects her allies of one another, their allies of one another. Right?
For those who are looking for allies, right? They're allies of one another. And they their
protectors of each other.
		

			Yeah, model nobody model who ain't how not in Mocha, they enjoy and what is good and they forbid
what is evil. They stand up for what is right, right. So may Allah Subhana Allah make us of them.
Dr. Mohan thank you for coming. Salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah.