A Frank Dialogue Shadee ElMasry, Hassan Shibly
Yasir Qadhi – Political Engagement Between Idealism & Pragmatism
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the importance of protecting transgender individuals and finding a culture of cooperation among groups to avoid wasting political energy. They stress the need for political engagement and strong political alignment to avoid harming the community. They also highlight the significance of acknowledging and support for transgender individuals and their rights, as well as the need for addressing issues such as racism and homophobic behavior.
AI: Summary ©
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a Salaam Alaikum and welcome to a very special episode of the Sultan's and sneakers podcast. I'm your host as always Mahina podcaster and today we have a very special panel for an important discussion on political engagement. My guests are three leaders in our community who really need no formal introduction, but I am here joined by Sheikh Dr. Yasir qadhi, Dr. Shudehill mystery and civil rights attorney Hassan Shibly, salaam alaikum. Brothers, thanks so much for coming on the show today.
So
this, this idea for this podcast a political engagement, the idea came about about a month ago shake yesterday that was you were in Chicago was that roughly four weeks or something around that time? Seems like Yeah, I mean, a few weeks ago, where as usual, we hit each other up in terms of the burgers or Chicago, right? We had a lot of weakness, bro. Insha. Allah, I love my burgers and steaks in Chicago. So we were just discussing, and I don't know, why would the topic came up, obviously, political engagement. And I said, You know what, we need to really have a frank conversation and dialogue with people of diverse backgrounds so that we can understand the spectrum of
nuance here and to understand why people feel the way that they do. And, you know, my head, I know that you had a podcast. So one thing led to another, and hamdulillah here we are. Hamdulillah. So what let me ask you, Sheikh yesterday to start off, like, what's,
what's driving your intent here to have the conversation is, is it like I know right now you are. It's been a couple of years. But people I know, you're not new to taking criticism, right? Whether it was in your more like fresh Medina days, you know, versus even today for different things. Is there something specifically that happened recently that that kind of triggered this idea? Or are we are you just seeing, you know, the atmosphere in America that we're just split over political, political issues, and when we shouldn't have been what, like, what, what's kind of driving this thought? I mean, that's not any one particular incident or stuff. But I think that for a number of
yours now,
the American Muslim community is long overdue. A frank dialogue between the activists on one side and the religious leaders on the other. And then the Muslim masses in the middle who are kind of sort of really, really just looking at this, this debate taking place, or this harshness or even sometimes not even talking past each other, sometimes not even talking with each other. I think it's high time that we have a frank conversation about what's going on. Why is there so much tension? Why is there so many differences of opinion, even amongst the darks, even amongst forget, obviously, the activists, generally speaking, they are following one spectrum, understandably, but even amongst the
scholarly class, even amongst the preachers of Islam. There is a times some type of harsh debate and rhetoric taking place online, about the best way forward, about what exactly our visions and goals are. And this one podcast is not going to solve the issue, but I hope Inshallah, it's the beginning, and I hope inshallah it will be leading to future conversations with other people as well. Sure. So I think when people are seeing the landscape delay Muslim, the laity and I think we're, the audience here, as I see are people on the more practicing spectrum, right? People who can't who care about Islam as a paradigm of life as their worldview, they're not looking at Islam as a cultural identity.
First and foremost, it's essentially about salvation and theology. Right? Even in that group, you're finding splits, right? Which is what I'm talking about. Yes. That's what we're talking about. Right? Just just to lay it out there. And then you have various perspectives you have I think, I think the perspective that you're willing to listen to politicians and their at least their takes, hear him out a little bit, and then think maybe there's some gray area, maybe there's some things we can we understand there are problems on their platforms, but at the same time, we have issues in our community that may need political engagement, need representation, etc. In my hearing you right, is
that would you characterize your thought process that way? No, it wouldn't. The reason being
I actually personally don't get involved in politics directly. Okay. I have never supported a candidate I've never canvass for candidate I've never raise funds for a candidate in office, the you know, politicians at all.
As I've never, you know, said to my Muslim community go vote for x rather than y. My main concern isn't personally actually the politician himself or herself. Concern is the division within the Muslim community. My main concern is that religious folks are developing a sense of of rhetoric against other religious folks mistrust, distrust, dismissal of the other worldview, my main concern is that that little pocket of religious Muslims, and to make us understand that you know what, even us religious folks are not the only piece in the entire puzzle. In fact, we're the smaller piece and the larger puzzle. And there's other pieces of the puzzle, even other Muslims like us, you call
civilizational. Muslims, if I got the term correctly, I mean, I don't know if I'm gonna use that term. But the bulk of the American Muslim community, the majority of them, are not on our wavelength and paradigm in this particular discussion. Even if we don't agree with them, we cannot just dismiss their existence, we cannot just ignore that that is the default of the American Muslim community, how do we engage with them in a wise manner without alienating them? What is the best way forward? So my main concern isn't the actual politician, believe it or not, it's actually the internal dialogue taking place in our own Muslim community. And especially priority priority for me is the
religious community. Because I find all too often, that our own religious folks are not even taking a step back and hearing the other side, the other religious folks, and allowing for there to be a spec, excuse me, a spectrum of interpretation where the Shetty allows for that spectrum of interpretation. I gotcha. So I hear your pain point then. So Dr. Shadi? I don't know if
is that where you're coming from as well, or you've told me off the record that your position is pretty, fairly straightforward and simple, right? When it comes to, you know, but when we're talking about guests, now, the community at large and this, I think, as the religious folks, it's part of dealing with our greater community who may not be as practicing may feel needs to get involved, etc. In these Indian movements, What's your general take on this approach is like people know, you as a as a as a community guy, and that you work on your community, and that's your sphere of influence, and you do what you can control, right? Yes. So what shaquiesha just talked about is more like a
WPF. Okay, would like the manners of how people interact? And how jots amongst themselves interact? Right? And I think we were like, two to three years ago. Shift. Yes. And and I, we're, we're in a part of a panel where there must have been like, 20 or 30, imams, right, all like who are have national agendas. They're in Boston. And that was a wonderful weekend we all camped out, wasn't really it was sort of a semi camp. Right? It wasn't a fancy hotels like out somewhere.
And 2030 of us having breakfast, having lunch breaks a lot. And then having these discussions, it was we were on such a good track, then it sort of derailed and later on it blew up. Right. And as time passed, we never got there again. So what what's your pastor just said, I think that what I hearing from that is it's more about the edit of the Deaf moreso than the issue itself. And he could correct me if I'm wrong about that, the edibles enough as a precursor.
Eventually, we'll also get to the issue. But we're not going to be able to get to the issue when everybody is sick, feeding them to do everybody, everybody else when everybody's refusing to acknowledge that other people in the room are knowledgeable and sincere and have a perspective of where they're coming from. Right. Even if I disagree vehemently. They're not coming out of a place of a vacuum. And the world is not monochromatic or dichromatic. The world is very complex. And the irony of ironies, I don't actually have a particular position, per se, if I'm trying to teach people soon. I'm trying to teach you the overall paradigm. I don't actually vote and I've never voted for a
candidate, and I've never endorsed a candidate. But what pains me is that, you know, there can be correct, good, most not correct, good Muslims, and even the correct methodology ideology, when it comes to politics is not black and white. Sometimes there are
potentially correct positions on both sides. You know, I like to what
not, I'd like to have Dr. Hats and one set and I think it was an interview I did with him. He said, there are certain things that's clear cut, cover,
and there are certain things that would make a person outside of his Sona then there are things that would not put you outside and as soon but you may believe that it's a gravely misguided error.
And so while there are rules to deal with Zina, dukkah Xindian he says he's a Muslim, but his belief is far from that agenda.
heretics and innovators there's a law on how to interact with them. There's also a law that applies to somebody who you vehemently disagree with on a point. And that third category, all the rules of brotherhood still apply. Right, all of the husband's done still applies. And there's no cutting off, right? There may be you just differ on that point. And you can be as vehement as you want. So I think when it comes to the precursor to to how to discuss this, we got to realize, what is it that puts you totally out of the deen? What is it that puts you in some kind of realm of Bidda? That we're not going to talk to you anymore? All right, and what is it that we could get, we will just be
disagree at vehemently or not vehemently, where the rules of brotherhood still apply. And we don't say that this person has collapsed, like you associate with him as danger and you don't slam him, etc. So I think the problem that we may have, and I agree where we witnessing the same problem, these rules are all mixed up somewhat on an issue that you could disagree is treating it like COFA. Right. That's where the problem is. And by the way, I hate to bring this up all the time, because it's become cliched, but SubhanAllah. In this case, it is totally true. The whole heritage, I'm sorry to bring this up, because it's really every time you bring up the term commodities, everybody
gets, you know, sensitive this case Wallahi it's 100% True. What makes the early fits in the between the sahaba. And the hydrogen is different. Where are we on the one hand on the other one, on the other hand, early Allah why Ibn Abbas on a third platform, but the Allah and Jimmy and and the hydrogens, what makes them all different? Well, the Sahaba vehemently disagreed to the point of literally unsheathing the sword and going to war with one another. But they didn't make the beer. They didn't bring in that this person's account from another or Xindian, or law or whatever. The hostage I took political positions and made a religion out of it. The hostage I said if you support
so and so your account for your law, and we'll be right. And sorry to say here and again, the people hated because there it has become a bit cliche, though, to understand, but we're seeing a similar type of misunderstanding when it comes to political affiliations, political loyalties, right that you can decide in their time frame than while we as the best politician, even though your heart might be more in line with it with your loved one, and whatever you for whatever reason, and you can strongly disagree with that's a hobby or that Sabirah who does so but it doesn't make him a martyr there are vulnerable then. And it requires it in and wisdom and a lot of knowledge to understand the
nuances. Unfortunately, what we do have is this simplistic black and white, which is where the holidays did really that you're either you know in a law, everything has to be judged by their version of the Quran. And if you don't, then you automatically become a coffin, but the world doesn't work in that monochromatic understanding. And if you think it does, then you're heading down this path of extreme vitriolic, you know, to be in danger but anyway, that's my two cents, even if not best said never not best said that. Let's call him Abu Bakr. Omar. What else? Yes. To whom are we? What exactly is the most pious was our background with the best political maneuver? Was Molly?
Even? He said and he's no he didn't join us rank? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So Dr. Shah, you mentioned those three categories of key left, right. That the right, yes. Okay. So let's get into a case. Maybe not to mention names, but like, recently, let's say you have Muslim politician who has certain problematic views, let's say on, I don't know, some social liberal issue. You know, everyone, I don't have to like spell it out for you. Everyone's referencing right now. Right. Yeah. And they get invited to say said mainstream conference. Right. And this is a conference is generally conservative audience.
So this person, I don't know, if they got it, they were platformed. And they got to spend and they are now setting the scene as an example, to our
children and youth coming up, right?
This person,
put me issues views that could be like haram straight up, right off the bat, or even could be pushed and stuff that could be borderline. Cofer. Right. And you just go ahead and spit it out, bro. Good. Just
get up and these
guys, do you really want to keep it this way? Again?
Look, if someone does something publicly, there's no shame. There's no backbiting about it. Okay, so so. So we're talking we're talking about Congresswoman Ilhan and ignor right.
You know, and so she's acknowledged and then there's pride month and there's the whole dancing at the parades and stuff right. Not too shabby. I mean, you were you were pretty upfront about her stance on on, we were at it on Twitter. We discussed it on the madman looks like what is it like a month ago was around that time, right? Um,
where people the idea of a scholar supporting her, or saying that we need to, like at least support her because she represents us. And the community doesn't
care about her social baggage and all that stuff. And you know, she helps. She's the only voice we have for issues of lagers or Israel or BJP, etc, whatever it is.
Which key left? Does that fall out or not with her but with a with a scholar or somebody of knowledge? Who may say that, hey, we were the backer.
I don't think that, like a some of her some of those actions would fall into the category of a difference of opinion. Some of it is blatantly supporting what is forbidden, right? Yep. And
so we don't increase the sweat Mancha. Sawada Coleman for women who prophesy centum said, and the ultimate took took from that and also learn alone in our decision. So the curse of Allah who's who gives refuge to death, who is either an innovator or some someone running away from the law. So or someone who's causing fitten. So point being is the ultimate have set us some parameters on who we can put up on a platform, right tech theater, so it putting up tech theta. So it means you're increasing their followership, you're increasing people giving them attention, right. So I feel much more comfortable with the position that you don't give a platform or you don't give attention to
where you don't draw attention to or put up as an authority. Okay, somebody who is going to do those types of things, right?
Dancing in the has got to indicate some approval going to certain events and parades, it indicates some degree of approval, right?
You don't just show up at a parade by accident, and start dancing, like you premeditated that you did it, then people criticize you, you stood by it, do what you want. Allah tells us in federal mindset to come out to the internet, and you'll see the result, do what you want, you will see the results. So I'm not here to tell people what to do in their own lives. Right. But I love the position, I feel safe with the position that and by the way, most of the Allamah will also agree we don't put someone on a platform that we would not hold them up as an example. They're actually their public actions contradict this idea. And they stick by it. Right? I personally wouldn't I would even
be even more specific, I wouldn't put someone up that I wouldn't want my kids to be like,
right? Put them up. If I'm if I run a platform, I wouldn't put someone that's like the type of hypocrisy, right? So you want other people to be guided by this person, but not. So that's the position that I take on that.
And it's not even my position. I've that's what i've what I've learned, I'm not so much to hit that makes up these rules. Okay, I want to ask Jose has had a chance to speak yet, Hassan as someone I think as you have a lot of underground reality in background in dealing with like civil rights and for Muslims, etc.
Knowing her positions, if, hypothetically speaking, let's say she could help us, you know, really advance civil rights for Muslims. And you know, the reality on the ground more than any of us?
You know, is there a case still, you think that, hey, there's still a benefit here? Or do you think it's really like, a perceived benefit, and we don't really have actual practice, we don't have really tangible results from that kind of representation. It's not worth it. Like, what do you think? I'm just gonna, I think we're making it to zero sum to be honest. So look, from my perspective, and just to start, because we start the spoke generally. And then we get into the specifics on a general perspective, my concern is the fact that there are many activists that use their activism as a tool to tear others down. So if you're not liberal enough, they'll tear you
down. If you're not conservative enough, they'll take you to tear you down, even if you're within their activist circle. Unfortunately, we're starting to see that even within the popular online, Muslim scholarship class as well, you know, Islam becomes a means of tearing people down. And I again, I'm not thinking of any particular examples, but as a general thing, I think we always have to question ourselves, what do we love within our hearts? Do we love to tear people down? Do we love to bring people together? Do we love for our feet to succeed? What is our motivation? I think a lot of times we're missing the sincerity in how we engage with each other. So I think it's important to
discuss the the SDF issue and the edible SDF. Now, the second issue I want to discuss is that there are for many people, their activism is their religion. In other words, their primary goal is activism. It's the cool thing to do. It's the hip thing to do. And then they want to twist Islam to justify and support it and ate it and I've seen them take that to too far extremes unfortunately. Whereas, really our job regardless of where we're coming in from, is that right?
Really our primary motivation is our deen is pleasing Allah, you know, is being ready for one more put under six feet of Earth. And then our activism is an extension and a tool of that, and therefore it will stick within the confines of the Sharia. That's essential. And this is something we've learned from all of the scholars and the speakers here and elsewhere. Now, to get into the third and specific point, look,
we have to first understand that it's a learning process. So on the ground, we're constantly fighting to get Muslims that are wrongfully targeted by the FBI off the terrorist watch list on the ground, we're struggling to get people who've been in jail for years unjustly out of jail. It is a difficult fight. We're constantly targeted by the Islamophobes. We say one word, we may destroy our dunya we say another wrong word, we may destroy our us, you know, we're constantly under tremendous heat, tremendous pressure, we're under resourced, and outgun so, so to speak politically and legally, and we're seeing the victims of anti Muslim politics, we're seeing the victims of anti
Muslim laws. So we're driven, I think those of us that are sincere by a sincere passion to liberate those that are wrongfully incarcerated, harassed while they travel facing hate crimes. That's what we're driven by. Now. At the same time, I will say in the longer I've been in the spheres of activism, I genuinely believe that modern extreme secularism, and even its forms of extreme feminism that is extremely toxic and distorted in our time. And there's support for ways of life that are antithetical to all the prophetic traditions. And the confusion as to what even a man and a woman is that whole mindset and ideology, I believe, is one of the biggest threats that that society is
facing. It's literally I've seen it destroy families, I've seen it take people down the road to Cooper. So I understand the psychological and theological detriment that some of the secular extreme ways of thinking can lead to at the same time, we need to be able to help people that are on the ground that are suffering. And unfortunately, I think over the last decade or two, it has tended to be the Liberals that are more supportive on many issues of Muslim civil rights. But that's also not the case. I mean, some of the biggest Islamophobes are also stream liberals like Bill Maher. And I think our loyalty as Muslims. First of all, it needs to be to neither party. You know, I do believe
in voting, I do believe in supporting candidates. And I believe we have to analyze each and every one, but we should not appear to belong to one party or another. And I think the Muslims have made a tremendous mistake and appearing to align with one party or one political ideology. And that has led to our detriment. So I believe you take a step back. And we need to be able to support candidates on a case by case that will bring the most benefit to the community. And guess what the analysis for what will bring the most benefit is not why. And it is experimental. And we may disagree. And we may make terrible mistakes, you know, Ill Han is somebody that I that I that I communicate with
directly. And unfortunately, you know, over the years, I found it that that as I got to see her public position on things that I feel were detrimental to the Muslim community, I no longer would be as comfortable, you know, offering the same level of public support that I did early on.
Do I believe that, you know, people who, for example, promote things that are openly condemned in the Quran and dance and parades that celebrate that should be on Muslim conference? Platforms? No, I don't. Quite honestly, I agree with Imam Shetty on this. But do I believe and will I hesitate to call Ilhan directly when a Muslim is held up by the FBI and she may be able to have some influence to help liberate them or push for positive change that yeah, I will do that. And I'm not gonna hide that Listen, stop doing what you're doing. This is what I disagree with. And I will tell you not all by the way Muslim elected officials are like this, because I've had that situation within have. I've
had it with another you know, where I reached out to one you know, elected official that's Muslim and say, Listen, you cannot be doing what you're doing. And I don't feel comfortable supporting you, if you're going to be publicly promoting these positions. And I understand the difficult nature of it. I don't even care if you vote in support of these things that we disagree with. Maybe it's a fellow party lines, but you don't need to be so out there. So pro it on that level, and that person just caught me off. They no longer want to engage with me and okay, that answered their question for me versus someone like Ill had I will call her and I will condemn the things that it's agree with.
And I will work with her directly to help Muslims on the ground because look, I'm responsible, you know, like the the prophets uncle, he was responsible for his camels, Allah will take care of the Kaaba, okay, I'm responsible for my clients. I'm responsible for those that are suffering. So I'm going to work directly with Ilhan and with anyone else that can help me serve my clients and my community on the civil rights on the legal issues. And I'm not going to endorse the stuff I disagree with in that column and tell them I disagree with it. And if they themselves are sincere, and they themselves are secure, they'll respect you despite the differences. So that's two different things.
So litmus test, yes. These are two different things platforming on a religious basis, versus I'm with you on that we shouldn't platform religious basis, but we can engage directly and so that's the
Listen, I've taken it's not a zero sum, your real estate agent, your lawyer, your plumber, who cares what they do, and you care less what they do publicly. He's coming for a service. Right. So we have to separate between the issue of our what we endorse as religion.
And what is merely a function. Right, whether it's a legal function, right, or any other function. Correct. There's a clear differentiation there. Right, right. We're not and I think I'm aligned with you on that. Like, again, I would not necessarily, you know, I would not platform them in that capacity, but I'll work with them on issues. Now the issue comes up. And here's the contention. Well, okay, what if somebody does a platform and then they invite another speaker? And then that's where we've seen the condemnations or will you share the stage with them? And that's where, look, look, I think there is, you know, as a layperson, again, I'm speaking as a strategist and a
layperson, not a scholar, but I could see the strategic benefit of why somebody would share the stage, even though they disagree with them. And even though we say maybe that person should have been given a stage, and I can see why somebody would condemn sharing the stage, but but the way we do it, it's I believe, it's been very, very destructive, and unhelpful, quite honestly. And we've started to really hate each other, when really, I think we're aligned in a lot of ways and we need to stand united and speak out of a place of love, not out of a place of hate. That's what what hurts me is sometimes the hate that I see. That is driven by how we have these conversations. And this
happens on the on the activist side, just as much if not more, as on the scholarship side. Hassan would you say you're in the minority as far as as activists go, if you were to kind of like, you know, where you're, you're, you're seeing that as a religiously traditionally minded activist? Like, are you the minority amongst a general activist sphere? You think? Depends what circles I think, I think there's many people that mashallah their grounding in the deen is much stronger than mine. And they're doing tremendous work for the community. I think in the space that I've been in, possibly, yeah, I would say perhaps I'm a minority. I don't know. I'll leave that to others to judge. But
sure, you know, I've been straightforward. From day one. I grew up as an American Muslim. I went to law school because I saw the Muslim community being targeted. And I love my deen and I'm trying to serve both. And I hope we can inspire many others to do that, with the dean being their priority and how they do things. You know, one thing that I think I point out something i My observation is that because we're now in a globalized world, with social media being global, right, so people who are gonna hear this podcast, they're in the UK, Australia, other parts of Europe, South wherever, I think they have their own set of issues, right? I think American, like, I almost feel like the
audience that we can start talking to is like American Muslims, like straight up because our even Canadians, their politics are different. Right? Our politics is very specific. And I think what's happening is that we're hearing a lot of noise, like, so we'll have British Muslims commenting on our issues, and like planting seeds in our brain, and like letting that affect our own frame. Like, that's how you guys should be. But like, your context is different. You're not, there's a limit to that, though. Okay. We have certain guide guidelines that will not change no matter where you are in time and place. Right? And if that's what they're commenting on, then it's fair game. Sure. No
problem. I, you know, but I think it's but it's, it's the the kind of maybe laws that specifically impact Muslims. I don't know, like, for example, the how the FBI targets, you know, quad s, for example, how it differs from country to country, there may be various levels of it, right? It's also things that we got to look at, because what are people concerned about?
People are concerned about their kids are in public schools, and it's all the social stuff being put in there, that gender pronouns, that's where it's like drag queens, all that stuff. We don't like where's that in other? If you're in the UK, and you're in a predominantly Muslim school, let's say you're in like Bedford hers, you know, these these places? Or is that going to happen? Is that being shoved down your throat, whereas here, if you're in a public school, depending on your state, it could be happening to your kid at kindergarten? Well, I'm hearing complaints in the UK and in Canada about this issue, but I want to, you know, bring in Schiff, so called the, for a minute, I'm sure
thing, which, really, we have to also understand the Muslim community is very infantile, when it comes to political engagement. And there really isn't a roadmap for us. I believe that that we have that readily accessible. And a lot of times like running one of the largest Muslim organizations, like I felt like I was doing HDF political issue. Yeah, but trying to navigate trying to figure out we weren't always sure and Allah knows how much do I we would make by night and by date and seeking forgiveness and doing the shooting. And honestly, you would speak to incredible scholars, and they both would would would have completely different opinions, and honestly, nobody necessarily
ascertain on what to do. I do believe it's your shed, he said that there are some foundations within that don't change that we can all agree on. But I want to give an example with Sheffy so that I can relate to you know, I saw some condemnation of him very frankly, because, you know, he took the position that Listen, let's not get
Get involved in the gay marriage fight right let's not take a position one way or another we know it's haram. Obviously like it's insane. Who would who would genuinely believe Schiff? Yes, it legitimizes that I think people are not being genuine in the debate in the dialogue. You know, Chichester was very clear, I saw the video that we condemn this, I don't want to speak for you. And I'm gonna pass the floor after making the relation to myself personally on this, but you said, Look, we shouldn't necessarily be involved. And to be honest, that was my position to just because we have so much other fights, that I just from my perspective did not think that this is a fight worthwhile
for us to fight. Now, I will tell you also, as time grew, and I thought, Well, wait a minute, look how they overturn Roe versus Wade, look at the potential for engagement, you know what, maybe Muslims should have aligned on this fight. And maybe we should have held ground and maybe it was a mistake, and it's okay to have mistakes or to grow or to change that's natural, and allow us to do that, you know, because the issue is a northern beautiful quote, Those who make no mistakes and shake hands, I'm not saying you made a mistake I'm just talking about myself personally on this is that those who make no mistakes are not doing anything, you know, we're out there on the ground,
we're under a lot of pressure, we make decisions based on the circumstances we're at. And then as we grow, and we see that the situation, we learn, we adapt, we grow. And we have to allow each other to do that. It's one thing before we turn it to shake. So that is one thing for me to say, I'm not getting into this fight. Or another thing to say, I'm not having an opinion. Right? Our opinion is one invalid marriage to us. Right? Of course. So we're against it. That was the worst thing. The worst thing is when Muslims are trying to get in support it, I will be late. And I'll tell you in Florida, I am just saying because neutrality in this, there's no neutrality in that there. There can
be discussion on how loud do I want to yell that? Right? And do I want to get into a fight and a line, we can discuss all that. But I think we could all agree that well. And we have to say it because some people they were
the personal example is this in Florida, a gay priest actually reached out and said, We need your support. You know, you're the head of almost American civil rights organization, we need you to support the fight for gay marriage. This was before gay marriage was like legalized nationals. I told them straight up, I said, Listen, there is no way I could be genuine to my faith and my values and support you in your fight for that it is against the Abrahamic tradition, and you more than anyone should know this. However, I would never tolerate obviously hate crimes and whatnot. This was the position we took. And to be honest, I literally told him, I said, we're drowning in our own
problems. So we're not going to get involved in the fight. In the fight, obviously, he's not aligned with us on a spiritual level. And I definitely won't support it. But I'm not gonna get involved because it we just got too much to worry about. And we'll stand against hate crimes. And that was the position, again, we took is that the right position, the wrong position? I believe it's a position that there's room for, you know,
I agree with that. But I would be, always be mindful. Anytime that someone that you express opinion, people don't like, they're going to spin it to what we're victims were getting hated upon, we're blah, blah, blah. He actually respected it, though, and we never had issues with him that he loved. It seems like everyone we disagree with is on the verge of suicide and on the verge of No, and this is the timeline that we really got to that's the last thing want to say. And then we really got to pass the forest because it Forgive us we took a
bunch of time is that we as Muslims, we underestimate the understanding nature of the others, we forget that we're on. Okay, and when there is a new wave that comes with the Hawk, and when you stand for it, people actually respect that people are seeking it, people are thirsty for it, but they need us to stand our ground if we don't stand our ground and we lose that pole that can attract people. So but yeah, more often than not, they'll be more understanding. And I will tell you this, the least understanding the least supportive people are the Muslims that adapt that ideology, and they can often be the most toxic and most dangerous.
Can I say a little bit now, speaking before it, okay, recently, I have a number of points to say a little bit disjointed. I haven't prepared obviously as a conversation. But let's begin from the basics.
Let us begin with the principle that is universal across the globe. In America, England, Canada, between all of us on this platform, we should all agree with the principle the sort of the paradigm that is stemming from our tradition, our faith, pretty much all of mainstream feminism dare even say shears and whatnot would probably acknowledge this principle. It is Quranic in its essence it is prophetic. The syrup demonstrates this over and over again. And that is the following principle is the following. And that is when it comes to engaging with another person whom you disagree with when it comes to aligning yourself with a third party organization person then you weigh the pros and
cons Masada and Matthias at the Mossad helmet facet are both worldly and religious. Both of these are weighed and if you feel that overall the musalia of the boat dunya we and Dini perspective outweigh the pros outweigh the cons then you may Allah yourself for the
greater good. Even if there's going to be an incidental and negative that comes, that is not intended, you're not rallying for that you're not calling for that you're calling for a greater good, and it kinda sort of sometimes necessitates a smaller evil, right? This is pretty much universally acknowledged to be the mainstream principle of Sunni Islam. And it is demonstrated in every single strategic alliance, every single, you know, the, even throughout Islamic history as well. What I want to do a talk about comes from the Quran as well, the issue comes in the application, always the issue comes, who's going to weigh and assess the Messiah and the facet, the
what are the pros and the cons, who's gonna really go through and figure out okay, this con here, it is so negative, that it outweighs every single Pro that you bring to me. And therefore, we come to the very difficult reality, which is that allying yourself with a third party with a third entity with another person always has an element of which they had to it, it is not utterly it is not from the pottery yard from the cleaning yard, it has a gray area to it. And that is why and Asuna has always made it so problematic to make to veer based upon associations to make excommunication based upon your alliances with even a ruler, even a dictator and whatnot. Throughout the Arab Spring, I
gave multiple posts about this reality that many of our scholars just tacitly supported status quo, they didn't sign the photos for the debt warrants, but neither did they stand up and oppose the dictators because they genuinely thought, You know what, this isn't a battle, I want to fight, I want to preach and teach the masses in order to do so I'll have to give a tacit nod to this evil person, I don't like him, this king, I don't like him. But at the end of the day, you know, it's better than the instability that's going to come and he has to do something negative in order to get the overall positive. Now the principle is undisputed, the application may be disputed, however, we
have to be brave enough, mature enough, courageous enough, wise enough, that when we dispute the application, we do not make the other person the enemy. We say I disagree with your application, I know where you're coming from, and I really don't like it, but you are not my enemy, because your food is the same. Unfortunately, we don't see this in the online social reality. So when it comes to, for example, this particular another point, by the way, before I get to the the this particular person, we need to teach our communities we need to teach our message going, folks that politicians are not their role models, their role models are the inheritors of the prophets. These are the
roadmap, politicians are not where we take our morality from. And if we teach them this, then inshallah is going to go a long way to try to get to what Brother hasn't was talking about. This also means that since the rule is we weigh the pros and cons. What this means, therefore, is that every single person, every single activist, every single shareholder, he actually can take that rule and apply it to his or her personal life. And the net result of that rule might actually be different for that person. Hence, what are the Masada and Mufasa for Yasser all the to come with that politician versus what are the Masada anima fasted for care national to go with that
politician. It's not the same thing. And we have to raise the academic discourse of our communities to understand that sometimes perhaps, usually, the man should have the most narrow definition of Masada and Mufasa, the Redeemer should have the highest caliber that you know what I don't want to associate with somebody who's so evil or whatnot. And that is why to this day, I have never explicitly endorsed a politician said to go vote for a politician, myself voted for a politician, fundraise for, you know, one of these people in office never done so because I feel the people of knowledge have to have the highest. But I also understand where Hassan is coming from and others are
coming from that if community activists have a different way of beside it. And even if I don't agree with it, I'm not going to demonize them, I'm not going to problematize them. And if need to I'll pull them aside, I'll speak to Hudson directly. But I'm not going to make Hudson an evil target for my community. I'm not going to say completely nefariously and slanderously that has said Shibley supports, you know, gay marriage because he supports politician X, who has supported policy why and you make a tough sell. So you make this you know, a complete McCarthyism of what you were seeing with somebody who was with somebody who's suing somebody, we don't work this way. And as soon enough
Islam is above this soap, let there be differences of opinion and let there be different tactics for different people. That's always been my position. I am never and I've never preached for supporting a particular politician. Whoever says so is really a stuff with Allah slanderously line I have never and again, now that you're being specific Subhan Allah is Allah is my witness. I was invited to this conference of economics because of family engagement. I flew in Sunday. I flew back Monday morning. The person you spoke about spoke Saturday. Well, I didn't even know she was speaking until after I came back and some you know, a storm broke over in the end.
tryna the accusation that why q1 Almost sodium ion were asked permission. They gave it They vetted her candidate and slander as usual. Had they asked me I would have personally said no, I don't agree she should be invited to a mainstream Muslim convention. They never asked. If I had known I wouldn't have stood next door. I didn't stand extra. If I had known, I would have still gone another day, I don't see a problem, by the way, going on Sunday, and she's speaking on Saturday, I wouldn't have changed my position would be adequate. Anybody says, you're going to really make everybody a deviant? Who attends it? what not? That's a level of hostages them. That's just crazy, to be honest.
So even if I know she's coming on Saturday, I would have told it kind of Why are you inviting her and maybe publicly said something to show that I don't agree with that. But I'm not going to boycott an entire convention? Because I just agree with one speaker. That's not the way forward. Also, I agree with Hassan's point. And Shadi, I want you to also have to do this when you get the microphone back. I need to finish it for points. That yes, I agree that they shouldn't be invited actually agree with that. But now, are you going to demonize economics and say that economics or any other organization is tacitly agreeing with everything she says? Or are you going to understand like
Hassan Shibly says, they have their reasons for doing so that I strongly disagree with, they want to have access to her, they want to perhaps persuade her to tone down, they want to, you know, showcase some positives about her. So the application of the principle was misguided, but it doesn't make them misguided. That's really the key point of this entire conversation before I finish a few final points here, a simple example, a realistic example. I know for a fact that this person is the one that we're talking about. She has helped numerous families
whose whose passports what's the technical term, they're on the no fly they are they're on the they're not given visas, or whatever. So they would go to this this particular Congress lady, and she would help them do something totally legal bring their wives bringing their daughters and children back from these countries that Trump had banned. Right. So here's a brother here, his wife and daughters are stuck in that No Man's Land years go by, they go to this Congress lady, she helps them and mashallah they're reunited. And this is the law, she has the right to do that. Now, suppose more and more of these refugee families are seeing this is the only person that's helping I'm being
hypothetical, even though this is a real example. Suppose they say this is the only Congress lady that's actually helping my wife and kids are being living with me now. And so they start fundraising for her, and they start spreading the word amongst the community, and they say, you know, what, they're helping bringing our wife and kids back, right? My point as Chef, Yasser Pol, the is, I'm not going to demonize those Muslims, I'm not going to go on the platform and raise funds because I disagreed with what this lady is doing. But I want to teach my community tolerance, and I'm sorry, but sometimes being you know, a person of knowledge means you have to go against the flow. Wallahi,
the easiest thing for me would be to throw her under the bus, the easiest thing from our popularity, and we see what happens when, you know, some internet, you know, social media, whatever, people, when they do that their votes go up, and they become popular, because that's the easiest thing to do. But a person of knowledge has a responsibility. And my responsibility is to raise the bar of education, and to teach people that, hey, you know, those refugee families, the musalia for them, they take the same rule that we all agree to, and they apply it to this Congress lady, and they say, You know what I need my wife and daughters, I can have them in the war torn country. And this is the
lady that's helping me I need her to get into office. Again, I'm going to fundraise for her I'm going to have the majority of community vote for her. Now you come to this brother say Brother, don't you know she's dancing at a gay parade? You know what this brother is going to say? He says, a stop for a while. I don't agree with that. But I want my wife and kids to be here. Right? That's my point. We need to teach our community that there are two sides. I don't agree with this politician. That's why I've never supported her or was your footnote, somebody is going to dig through my 2000 hours of videos, find a small clip here and there, you know, embarrass me what not? So let me say
for the record, when she was elected, and before she danced at the pride parade or whatever. I did have some generic statements that yes, there's nice to have a hijabi because there's going to be some type of symbolism some type of generic so that there was before she danced in the parade or whatever. I've never praised her after that video has come up not one word since then, because I'm really disappointed and irritated. I also won her life was threatened by the far right. She really remember that when the FBI got involved, and she was threatened she was the threat of assassination came because she was a Muslim in Congress, right. And her identity of Islam became paramount right
at that stage, when the far right wants to kill her. They don't care about her political stances. She becomes a female black, I'm saying this bluntly refugee hijabi lady, every single negative they have in their minds, she represents it at that point in time Wallahi us people have to be wiser. And even if she has views that we strongly disagree with right at that point in time where her life is threatened because she represents Islam. I hate what she's done in this aspect. May Allah forgive her and guide her. It's a huge mistake, but at the same time, the people who want
To kill her are not killing her for that stance, they're killing her because she represents my faith and your faith at that point in time, if you are so narrow minded, and so backwards, that you don't see the reality that their hatred of her is, in fact, a hatred of you and your faith and your deen and your profit, and you don't have the sensibility to come together and protect her as a Muslim, even though you might personnel think she's a Muslim, here's the irony, you might not even think she was a Muslim. But at that point in time, the far right, not only thinks she is symbolizes Islam for them, and they want to kill her voter out of office at that point in time, you know, we do have to
come together as a community to say, even if I disagree with this stance of hers, he has a right to be a Muslim, or claim to be a Muslim, or HIV or whatever. And she had the right to be in Congress. Now that nuance is lost on those. Let me be gentle because my anger is really frustrating sometimes on those who don't think deeply, to be brutally honest, Wallahi this needs to be said, those people that are the biggest critics, they are speaking from the luxury of privileged backgrounds. It's not their families caught in war torn zones. It's not them who have to lobby Congress for specific issues. They're coming from positions of privilege and power, they've never really been forced to,
you know, get involved with, with the reality of the situation, and they're living relatively comfortable lives. Me personally, I also come from an Hamdulillah that type of privileged background. That's why I'm not really involved directly as an another as are. But my point is, as a community leader, as a person of knowledge, I cannot have two fellow Muslims demonizing each other. I cannot have two Muslims who love Allah love the messenger project, their weaknesses and their anger onto each other final point. I know I've said a lot here. Final point. We also have to be mature enough to rise above, finding a simple, a simple, you know, target a scapegoat for the
frustration that we feel we're all frustrated at the rise of the LGBT. We're all frustrated at the stupidity of the trans movement right now. It's so easy to blame, you know it Han or even a stuffed alarm or cinnamon and Yassa party, which I've seen so many times. I mean, this is now the default because of these social media, you know, drama queens, they literally say Yasser, all the rumors today, man, you know, mainstream Ilhan Omar, that's pure candidate. I've never fundraise for never introduced her pure life. They literally say that and that and how Omar is what made trans movements into America. So basically, you also all the similar sentiment are directly responsible for this
field around you. While the law he Dear parents, your TV set in your house is a million times more responsible for the corruption of your family, then Ilhan Omar much less you know, religious figures. So calm down, don't find an easy target, because the target is far more difficult and move beyond demonizing fellow Muslims and understand the world is a very difficult place. Well, Allah He we are so hurt at what our sister has done in this regard. I make dua that Allah guides or you know, somebody said to me, why don't you publicly cursor if that's the case, and I said, you know, you remind me of Mr. Muhammad and his son, Abdullah, when Abdullah said to Mr. Muhammad, that Oh, mama,
what do you love your zt? And my mama said, Can any Muslim love yours it? Can any Muslim love somebody who's supporting LGBT dancing at a gay parade? And so, Abdullah said to his father, why don't you Chris, he has he? And Mr. Muhammad said, Have you ever seen me to be vulgar, you know, cursing another Muslim, I don't see the point of cursing or whatnot, but I make dua for her. And I have very clearly disobeyed God that Allah guides her and a very clearly have dissociated from such politicians. And every lecture I say that, look, these politicians, we don't learn a morality from them. We don't learn a lot from them. We learn that from the roadmap, but I still say if Hassan
Shibly calls her up, and wants to get benefit from her, I don't demonize her essentially, if economic wants to invite her for some perverted application of their logic and their view that you know what she needs to see that these 10,000 Muslims support her because of her Islam. So she needs to be guided to correct Islam. They're trying to use it as a token and by the way, that is what economic philosophy was they told this to me and I said, that's really foolish, but that's your business. I learned this that that to me right now. But the point is, they agree with the principle. I'm not going to demonize economic I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus, which is what
unfortunately, so many of these social media warriors are doing and that is dangerous because it is anyone I've spoken a lot. You're you're you're you are literally considering the bulk of the OMA to be misguided and evil. If you're going to take this illogical conclusion. That's exactly what the Hutterites did go ahead and disagree. So it could have made a mistake, but it does not evil. Go ahead and say I strongly disagree, but that doesn't make the other person an evil person who supports evil involved. And that's the key point I need to get across with that shake. Yes, sir. I want to like ask you to clarify something real quick. You've said just because I'm doing an auditing
what you said and I'm like thinking about how someone's gonna like run through your statement with a fine tooth comb, as they always do. That is a problem. The problem, even this attitude not spoken against this
So many times Wallahi if your need is to just find faults and find the ambiguous word, May Allah help you there. I mean, like any, it's not Islam anyway, this is not the way forward. Anyway, what's your question? I'll ask you. So basically, so you could you mentioned that you're right that people are claiming that, you know, almost eliminate guesswork or the platforming, this kind of behavior, this person in there, and therefore this kind of behavior, etc, etc, right? I think you should speak for yourself, because what's going to happen is you're clarifying your own position here. What they're going to do is your take that clip and be like, well, almost a woman said, did this, I don't
know what Sheikh Omar Suleiman did. But like, I think you just like cover yourself and just say, I speak for yesterday. Ah, the only does that make sense. I do speak for yourself.
Lawyer spoken.
On your lawyer. I have spoken many times. And
overall, I know that he's in agreement with me about these principles that are white, right. So even if we disagree about the application, we go back to my point here, right is that if he sees a Masada a pro and con that's different than mine, right? Yeah, he understands in his worldview, that this is better for the OMA, even if I disagree, and I will, and I have disagreed and he's disagree with me, and I call them up, we everybody knows we are in direct contact with one another. And we agree to disagree. Sometimes I'll literally text him in Russia, I don't agree shut him down. And he'll do the same with me. It doesn't diminish the good that he's done. And I don't demonize his entire life
because of an error in the applique, or what I believe to be an error in the application. And this goes back to another point has been brought it up very well. Subhan Allah, what is wrong with understanding that this rule can change from time to place to person now when I said, I'm going to be neutral in this regard, right? This was in when the Supreme Court was just about to rule in his favor, right. And we knew it was a lost battle. As Hassan said, hindsight is 2020. Maybe we should have done something else. So what the application can change from time to time, it's the principle that does not change. And it wasn't a universal rule that I said, we're always gonna remain neutral.
It was actually about California, and what was it proposition eight or whatever, during a time, people have forgotten how, you know how Islamophobic the environment was, you know, and the time of Obama people have forgotten, you have a short memory span where these video to DVD is of you know, is the rise of Islamic, you know, fascism in America was going rampant. And we were genuinely worried about our civil liberties 22 states and trying to ban dysuria. At that point in time, is it the wisest battle to take on, you know,
at that point in time, and you know, maybe if I were to go back to that time and place, I would have changed my views, but maybe I wouldn't, at that point in time, I gave my best judgment, and its application could be wrong, Allahu Adam, but to read into that rubella, there is a support or there's an endorsement, Ruth Avila rubella. This is Hannukah, double down on a limb. You know, this is Yasser. And siesta is very different, very different from the outcome of the shadow. Right? I mean, if I could just add something to that there may be another element to the discussion that is not political, nor religious. But on the level of persuasion, persuasion, and even if we could say
branding, and driving people's focus
activists who have to deal with all sorts of crowds to get their passports, etc. And Imams who are people go to when they're penitent? And they need to learn about Allah. And they need to change their ways. So there may be an element here where, yeah, I may totally support her son's dealing with anybody who can get people their paperwork, right. But me myself, if or you, yourself should guess it, if you were to be with these people, your audience would be confused, right? I had a teacher, he was a purist, okay. And it was just deep. And it made the matter clear, because I know what I'm getting from this person, then they sort of changed their ways a little bit, and they're
all over in different meetings, right? Political, non political, whatever, so it can muddy the water of what this person is offering. Right? This is not to say he did something haram or wrong, but we're also communicators. Tao is communication. I want to drive your attention to one set of things.
I can't muddy the water and get you confused. 100%, which is a reality 100% With your shoddy that's why, in my own personal life, I have tried my best to stay away from rulers and dictators and politicians, because I do believe I do believe that Obama should not make them authoritarian, but I'm staying over all the rest of my class should not mix with the Salatin and in fact our prophetic traditions of this nature, and when we're gonna do mix with the Salatin, what usually happens as you say
It confuses the masses. So and of course, because of why am I have had offers to go to rich oil nation countries, what not? No, I don't want that. And I've had offers here in this land to know I don't want that. But that's my motif and my stress strategy. You and I both know, in our own, you know, scholarly circles a number of prominent people have, for whatever reason gone their way. And I have disagreements with that. But I have never publicly lambasted them because because it goes back to this principle goes back to exactly even though Allah He My heart hurts at the alliances towards some, you know, oil rich to pro Israeli countries in the Middle East whose name shall not be
mentioned, but my heart hurts. Well, Allah He had hurts. And I have expressed that pain directly to these people involved. But because I try to be consistent in applying this principle, and that is that whatever perverted way they're looking at it, they actually think the Masada are more than the Mufasa. And their own weird view. That's the way they view it. You know, it's literally like, you know, people thought that in the time of the fitna, you know, aligned with Malia versus Adi versus whatever, they have their views, you know, I'm saying, Yanni, what are you going to do about it? Okay, so, I think there's, so let's use that example of like, some of these alumni who support like
these like, dictators, prestige, names, there were no names. Okay. Any names? I'm not going to be specific. No problem. Okay. So laymen.
First of all, do you think it's appropriate for lay people? Because lay people are really, you can call it like, they're, they're attacking them without any. Like, they're not holding back, right? Social media, other podcasts, you'll hear these people criticized a lot, right? And I can hear what you're saying, because they're using this and some of these other ma have like, at status, they probably are Mujahideen. Right. They are senior scholars, right. So they're doing their HD head and you're saying we disagree with it. Right. But the application we disagree with, but they have, but there also was probably sound, it's just their application is misguided, correct? Correct. Let me
let me make one exception. And that exception is when it is patently clear that it's not a matter of Masada human facet, but you have sold yourself to the highest bidder. When you endorse the killing of civilians, when you call peaceful protesters, the dogs of hellfire, you know, when you give carte blanche authority to a brutal dictator, you know, to kill militancy mean, in the masjid, I'm sorry, you've lost all excuse, okay, now, a third party looks at the situation and says, you know, what, these brutal dictators if we unseat the sword, you know, it's going across Civil War, and to have these brutal dictators is better than civil war. I understand even though, you know, my position is
very clear in my lectures and talks, and which countries have banned me in which not everybody knows this, right. So my lectures are patently clear, other people have given other support, and I strongly disagree, it's painful. But as I said, there's a difference between bootlicking and between generic endorsement for the sake of a greater good, does that make sense? Yeah. And I think people gotta be honest, because I, I will just before this recording, I was asked if I would be interested in interviewing somebody who may be perceived as anti one of these countries, right? And I was like, You know what, I probably gonna fly through there at some point. I don't think I don't want to
smoke. You don't say it? It just like, because you want to make things you're not trying to give yourself a hard time unnecessarily, either. I think that's what it is. Like, if you're put in a corner, and some of these guys they probably live there. And like, what choice do you have, right? One of the things just to jump on this, like, let's be real growing up as an American Muslim. We are under so much pressure and a lot of the scholars even if we may disagree on their fifth or their politics, their work, help preserve our love for the deen our love for Allah and His messenger like our children, they're dealing with issues of actual atheism. I think atheism and secularism, that is
the biggest thing. And we need to be cultivating the goodness out of the youth. But the issue of forgetting when I see any person who's served 1020 3040 years in Dawa 40 years in service, and trying to literally destroy that person out of a political stance they took that's, that's, that's, that's not who we are as Muslims, and I think that's destructive. And we're heading in a projection where over time, the shayateen will perhaps succeed in canceling every island, every scholar for something so that the general people say, well, we can't trust any island, but it's not the problem is not the whole lemma or their positions. They may be correct, they may be wrong, but that also is
there. The problem is is our standards that you must be perfect in everything and to that I remember the sahabi who worn the courgette the process and was invading and Armadillo and wanted to cut off his head and also as SLM said, is a man of better How do you know like not look at him and forgive him and he had his reasoning it was flawed reasoning.
He's like, you're gonna be victorious anyway, and I just wanted to protect my family and then he was going to help you. And really he committed treason. But in that case, the prophesy Saddam did not condemn his whole life. Based on one bad horrible decision he made it was the opposite. He actually purified his life sanctified his life, based on some good he's done. We need to again mentioned this as well, that some of our Guinee, especially our youth, and they don't like these terms, overzealous or Neil hydrojet. I understand that we did use them in the past, and it's not going to get across to them when we use it. Okay, so I, you're right, we shouldn't use these terms. But their sincerity is
in the right place, but with utmost low, they haven't examined history. These trends are common and standard. You feel that you have this this puritanical zeal that I want to establish 100% authentic, but the world doesn't work that way. And people that are double triple your age have just as much zeal, but they also have more wisdom and knowledge than you. And they understand that it can't be this simplistic. So what we find here, a lot of our passionate youth are the biggest critics of the woke cancel culture, even as they embody the worst elements of the canceled culture when they cancel SR Allameh. Do our double triple their age for what they perceive to be a mistake. Even though it
might not even be a mistake, or at max, it is interesting how the issue of a gray area, so we need to raise the bar and teach our youth with utmost love and respect. Listen, if you don't agree with a particular chef, go to another chef, but Inshallah, within the scholarly community, you're not going to find the type of rhetoric and the type of dismissal and the type of Debian accusations that unfortunately, the Internet has become rife with we need to keep on teaching our communities stay away from that, you know, I think I've gotten criticized myself because the people have called me a scholar worshiper. Because I'm like, laity should not be criticizing Obama. But that's like my
bottom line position right? Just because you don't you haven't done the work if you can't, if you haven't done Arabic and you're fat that hat does not touch weed. They stay silent, right? Even if you eat like that's what the bandwagon is right? So but I was going to the point is like that we assume that these people have the capability to make each to head we've been throwing his turn HD head around and we're saying that like it not kind of HD had husbands that you got to do sometimes on the fly HD head right because you just don't know what's going on. You're in a situation you don't have time to call schicke Yasser or anybody else that might can help you out.
i Some people feel that people organizations like if no, and other people are using it, he had to loosely No, no, no, no. In my in my in my hand, there's different types of which to have. Okay, if you're lost in the desert, yeah, right. Right. You don't know which way to pray. Right? Yeah, leave me you don't want to ask check why Q Yeah. Because I am totally jarhead when it comes to, you know, figuring out north, south, east and west, looking at the sun. Okay. Right. That's you make an In fact, the scholars say, if you're confident that you know the direction of the table based on your own intuition and your knowledge of the lay of the land, right. Your HD HUD is binding on you, and
you don't care about anybody else's rehab. So when we say HD high, we have to be careful here. We are not talking about 50 HD HUD, we're not talking about rich dad from the new source, deriving rulings from the Quran and Sunnah I just said, What is the principle say you weigh the pros from a worldly and a religious perspective, and you weigh the cons from a worldly and a religious perspective. Hence, if you know a person from one of these war torn countries doesn't have his wife and children, right? The masala for him is to get somebody that's going to get his wife and children to and that's a Muslim, that is a pro that I don't need to worry about. So for that particular
person to ally with a politician to raise funds for that politician because they believe this politician will help bring more families and reunite families, right. That's an he had that is based upon his circumstance. Hence, it's the had that we're talking about is not the HD heart of the Quran and Sunnah it is using your best judgment, the same thing that I can say to you mine, that you're not a doctor, you're you're going to go to two, three doctors for medical analysis, which one is right, you're going to make HD hat. By here, I don't mean filthy HD hat. I mean, you use your best judgment based upon your knowledge about which doctor is the best for you. The same goes for
aligning yourself with various groups and organizations get feedback from IT roadmap from experts, but in the end of the day, you have to do what's best for your life. And if your wife is struck stuck in a war torn country, right, and you need to develop relationships with a politician that has certain evil or whatnot. Well, then for you that must slow her over ways that outweighs the the rough setup of that personal politicians stance on on that moral issue. Does that make sense? It does. And therefore, I said, scholars, in my humble opinion is my opinion should have the highest bar and that's why I refuse to appear. I have been invited only say too much. I have been invited on
political platforms. Why do you think you've never seen me introduced
As a political candidate, because I don't believe that's what I want to do with my life, whoever does it good for them, that's their business. I'm not speaking out of me personally, I don't want to do that. Because I feel that people have inheritors of the prophets, Allah, may Allah make me amongst them whatever small level that might be, they have to rise above this. And they cannot be directly involved with such people. But we cannot apply that bar to care to political organizations whose interests are not moral or theological. And I have to say, our community, please raise your bar of understanding, you cannot expect a civil rights organization that's interested in Muslim
civil rights to have the same understanding as you should have the masjid, they're looking at the world in a very different way. And for you to not differentiate and to assume that your civil rights organization has to wait the Masada remote facet of your local church exactly the same. I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees as the saying goes, yes. But like, so it isn't a but it seems to represent the Muslim populace. Right. So when they're saying, Dave, they're making this decision, you would think that they would consult with like, I know, they have access to scholars, right. So what goes down to cause them make some kind of unilateral decision from somebody? Listen,
I don't like talking about third parties when they're alive and easily contactable. I don't represent. Right not, I'm not the lawyer right now. They're amazing organization. And, you know, they invited me to a conference and I went and I'll go again next year, right? My my going to believe that it is a tacit endorsement of all 100 speakers is a level of naivety that is just ridiculous. I mean, I went I spoke and I didn't even know who was speaking the day before me. Now, if they had asked me for the record, I would have said she should not be invited. If they had refused to listen and still invited her for the record, I would have still gone the next day. But I
would have made a point to make sure that people understand I don't support, you know, what this particular politician is doing. Again, that's my position. But listen, shoddy, shoddy, suppose you said? How dare Akena invite, and I don't want to go and I refuse to go. And that's it, I would have respected that. But if you went beyond this and said, This means it kinda is supporting gay marriage, I would have called you out and said, No, it doesn't. They have their own way that they're applying too soon. And you have the right to vehemently disagree. You have the right to get angry, but you do not have the right to start labeling them as multimedia, because you've disagreed with
their massage every professor, do you agree with the concept of Taylorism, though, that's something necessitates something else sometimes is direct and sometimes cannot be direct. And in this case, it's indirect. In this case, when this case, no, it doesn't necessary necessitate because the topic was different. The topic that she's speaking about is different. Yes, they had chose to her to speak on that topic, then we could say that the lesson was definite. Right? Under 100%. Agree. Yeah. And by the way, you know, who has it really much harder than us? How about Allamah. And also, let's say when they had their fitna, right, with their governments and their Arab Spring, exactly, what I said
is that if you and I've lived in another country or rich country that I know many of my scholars, many of my teachers really did not like the ruling authorities, but they would still generically give their, you know, two cents, praise and whatnot. And nobody criticized that we all understand what do you want to do? Not everybody is cut out to be a martyr, not everybody's gonna wants to go to jail. And honestly, maybe if I were in that citizenship, maybe I too, would give my two cents praise and then move on with my life because I don't want to go to jail. I have bigger things to fight. So I humbly say, many of the people who are harsh critics are speaking from a place of
privilege, they've never actually had to face the reality of, you know, a situation where you know, what I might have to compromise a little bit of evil to gain a lot of good, right? It's usually people that are in very difficult circumstances that have to make that decision. I too, have been privileged Alhamdulillah. But I'm trying to teach my community to raise the bar of knowledge. Like I said, I actually agree with you, Shadi 100%. But my only issue is we can't demonize Hassan we're became as an example here. And I know you don't mind him say we can't consider Hassan or these other institutions to be the embodiment of evil. And when you have to agree to disagree with adab, and
civil and again, listen, listen, your representative care still right to work with care. And I used to, but I'm in private practice now. I mean, listen, in the end of the day, we can all disagree with certain things that care does, but there is no other organization that has done as effective civil rights for the American Muslim community. Do you agree with me and 100% 100% We can disagree with their tactics, but to make them to be, you know, the harbingers of evil to make them to be Shayateen in switches what some of our youth do. May Allah protect our youth from ever having to call them for an actual need? Because when push comes to shove, and when they get fired for a beard or whatever it
is
There is no other organization that they're going to have to call other than care. You know, and it's at that point in time, they're gonna understand, hey, I demonize them, but now I need to use them because nobody's doing what they're doing at the end of the day. And again, I disagree with many things about care. But still, I respect what they do. Even as I disagree, can we get to this level of maturity, where we understand that they're on our side and the end of the day, even if some of the tactics they employ we can strongly disagree with? So
I want to be explicit. Do you agree with that analysis that I've just said, I do. Okay.
I agree with it it in that there is a separation between people who have to fulfill functions, one function, you need a certain toolkit, and you need certain associates get another function, you need different toolkits, and you have different associates. So you cannot judge care, like you judge judge, you know, your share of the masjid each one. And that's why my humble position, the Obama really should have the highest bar, and we need to teach our community the differences between morality from Allah versus morality from politicians and civil rights organizations. As an example, real quick to echo your point. Um, you know, in Columbus, Ohio 2015, there were four brothers
arrested. I don't know if you remember the story.
They were arrested on terror charges. And many of those brothers, they went to undergrad with them. And they were very anti care. I would be like, Oh, cared. That means I don't care about the sun. No.
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Right. But then I when I read what, who was who was trying to back trying to help them out today, it was care. So I was like, It's funny how they you when you're pushed up against the wall? It's yeah, when we're young, and we're like, like, you know, dealing with because even now, I was telling a sheikh that recently came to
visit us in Chicago. And I was like, listen, shake. You know, I felt myself like, as I joined the professional world, and I go into the office, it kind of changed who I was, like, I couldn't be my MSA bubble anymore. Right. And then you're like, is like, is it? I don't know, if I'm being more liberal or what? And he was like, well, listen, maybe there are things you're falling short on, but just increase your Tobor. Right? Kind of thing, right? This goes on sometimes it's like, but I think the problem is, like going back to the people we're trying to reach right now. People look at things very black and white. Because even amongst all of us, I bet you they will come out and say you guys
still didn't address the issue that they want say he can do he had are not doing shit. They'll be like he can't do he had you're wrong, that will you'll get some real but
of course, they're not understanding that nobody's saying it can.
You know, we're talking about the practical day to day. But one of the points I want to mention real quick as you can tell a lot about an organization and even a people by their enemies, right. And so hello, when you look at care, you're looking at who's working day and night to destroy the organization. It isn't even the Islamophobes as much as it is the secular pro golden loot so called Muslims that want to destroy anything they see as even traditional leaning And Alhamdulillah having served the care family for 10 years, you know, although I no longer I'm on their paycheck but I love them and they're on my paycheck I love to support them encourage every Muslim to support them. But
the issue it's very interesting is we have to talk to each other before we talk about each other I will never forget that once a brother messaged me very angry and he said you know Hassan This is why only support activists like you and not so and so I mean look at so and so and so and so had shared something written by a very bad person let's just put it that way. I'm not going to mention who they are what they did there were so called Muslim but of that pro con the route and anti Ibrahim Ali's and everything. You know what I did? I picked up my phone I call they said why are you sharing this? They legitimate didn't know. And the minute I told them, they deleted it and removed it, you know,
and I saw this happen with care as well.
Actually, somebody reached out and said, you know, cares just shared this by such and such that supports XYZ openly and even the context is just not appropriate. I did an internal investigation. I was working for the org. It turns out I was an intern that didn't know what that they were doing or organizations are not in felt and valuable and they consist of hundreds of people and there are I would say the majority that people are leaning towards Huck, they may not know everything but they want to do the right thing and there are people that are just grounded in the wrong path we need to work with those who want and support them and aid them not destroy them and I will tell you this
sometimes it does help that they put feet to the fire you know our feet to the fire you know it so there is I believe always had in the right kind of pressure but has to be the right kind and after speaking to not speaking about and talking past and you know one of the ways you can say you can tell the difference is how the message of nausea is given any time
A person becomes infamous for always creating a public scandal rather than going to the people or individuals directly something is wrong. Okay. I spoke with Ignas leadership directly directly. And I can assure you the level of you know, comprehension I got about well, they understood they made a mistake. They shouldn't have done this the addition of us other people, right? This was their pros and cons that Subhanallah if whoever criticized Akena had all the approach them before creating drama on the internet, right, when your main focus is to create drama immediately within the Muslim community. I'm sorry, you don't have the concerns of the Muslim community at heart. When you think
that all major organizations care is now akin to master all sellouts when you think although the mainstream duat are pro LGBT liberals who's left you are literally destroying the entire ummah. And as a prophet system said, Whoever considers the entire Ummah to be destroyed, he is the most destructive of them. This is in the spirit of nausea. Subhanallah if any, somebody had just called me and said, Chef, did you support your decision to invite Ilhan Omar I would have said immediately, they didn't ask. I had no clue she was there. But no, immediately the slander is created. Why qn Oh, and I know Shahana was an aside because because Econet told me and I asked him what his worship was
what nobody was asked, but the slander was created, we endorsed we set to Econet to invite, and we and we did this Subhanallah when you have people like this, we ask Allah to protect us from their from their evil, you know, when that video came out, because like we were trying to figure out like, what, what did Yaqeen do? Right? It was yucky, yucky and white queue, right. And then I when we dug into it, it felt like that brother who made the video, he was attacked for being an agnostic. So he was trying to cover it. You know, it's like you because someone else criticized him for being there. It's like, why would you? Why would you share a platform with Ilhan right I don't want to say too
much but the brother has my number he could have texted rush for any time you're gonna go straight to video. Anytime you have a person and you know what every critic of mine online every one of them if they don't have my number, there's one person between me and the number they can immediately contact or my email, it's public, right? None and I repeat and none not one of these infamous videos that have been released about me have ever that prison has ever contacted me and asked for clarification and that said you know what, I'm not satisfied for the sake of the heck I'm gonna have to you know, call you out know what, um, and in particular, may Allah forgive but this brother, we
had previous interviews, we have good communication, and nothing nothing. Next thing I know like what are you serious? This guy released a video. Anyway, we ask Allah with a button we ask Allah, Allah the Most importantly, on the Day of Judgment, nobody can bring a claim against me My heart be pure. And I could use opportunity when I'm not going to they're one of the most outspoken critics of you shake Yasser, you know, maybe the most, maybe the most. I remember I met him at a conference where people of all kinds of orientations were present, he was invited. And and it was kind of like, well, people could say that you were platform here, but there's a double standard at the end of the
day, right? I'm not gonna get into details maybe they have an advantage over us. In that span Allah we are restricted by the prophetic sunnah to go to their level. And it's painful, because we could say so much. But we can't. And we leave our fair to Allah and I have, I am certain from my own past experiences, because I've been through much worse than I would in today's with the methodologies I've been through much worse and activated and would have been, if I correct between myself and Allah subhanho wa taala, then in the end, the results will the victory will be mine. So I need to concern myself. And frankly, and I'll say this in front of my critics, the reason why you have even
an ounce in public is because of my personal sins. My sins are coming back to me through you. I am saying I'm saying this publicly, you are a result of my own sins. So if I correct my own sins, there shall be a bigger and more protection and the more better I am in the eyes of Allah azza wa jal, and the more the owner will be protected. So you're all secondary, all of us we have to concentrate on him. And the rest, you know, in the law, you that you're only Latina Avenue. So we have to have Eman and Allah azza wa jal will protect us and their story. Sheikh yes are one of the things that one of these I actually respect you a lot for because you know, we were we were reminiscing, when we asked
him to Chicago, I've known you for 17 years. Both you and I were very different actually. 17 years. Wow. I'm old.
Yeah, I remember 30 plus years old. How old do you mind? I'm 40. I'm 40. No way. Yes.
Yes. So I remember the day I first met you, I picked you up at a Columbus airport and I was wanting to throw up in a turban. I remember that.
You know,
I was telling some brothers that like, you probably thought I was on mud called the spy or something the way I was. I really did the way you do the questions. You asked the way that you were interrogating me. Literally just
and you're just like
it's
And
so yeah, I did. Right. Right. So, um, but I've seen you evolve. And some people have this, like, I feel like I understand you, in the sense that you are your sincerity is leading you to always flush ideas out to entertain new things, right? Because understanding that you don't know it. All right, so you're learning you're growing, you're changing perspective, you get different perspectives, you're changing, right? Um, so some people see that as, okay, that's fine. But why why would you do why would you shake Yasser shouldn't do that publicly? Because adds confusion? Did you understand where they're coming from? There's an element of validity that I sympathize with that sentiment,
okay.
The response to that would be life is a never ending learning process. So at what stage will the person say hello survived that the ultimate truth? Never. You're continuously going to keep on thinking and rethinking. And
subhanAllah I'll be again, I'm always brutally honest here. Our problem in North America was that 911 created a vacuum of scholarship, and of community leadership that didn't exist. And Allah's mother was there a group of us happen to come back post 911 in that vacuum. And we were sucked up in that vacuum, far above our McCombe deserved. We didn't deserve that we were too young. But it's not our fault and that the community needed. And, you know, market investors came at the right time. And it was just the right time in place, and the next generation needed some type of stability. So I honestly believe had to come back 20 years ago, pre 911, I mean, not 25 years is going to have to
come back in the 1990s. After having studied what I studied, I wouldn't have been platform so extensively. Because there were other people, there were other movements, things were happening. It's just the reality that happened in the status quo. And therefore be look had I've just been an average shift, you know, in my 30s, these mistakes that people pick up on would have remained small, Halaqaat error, the internet, youtube, the celebrity status has all exacerbated what is actually the norm. What people don't realize, you think if an opinion was the same at 60, then it was a 30. You think for the snap share for this time. I mean, I'm so sorry to just burst the bubble of the
selfies. He joined us to Paducah when he was 18 he gave by a Sufi tariqa. No, that's definitely not even Tamia in his 40s 50s. You know, I'm saying
it's just a natural evolution of a person of knowledge. But because of the, you know, Aasif in that also, because of the imprint that social media has that everything you say is recorded. And so and then you have these people that are going to uncover something from 10 years ago, and he said this and that it is what it is pre Internet era, your mistakes as you evolve over time would have been overlooked. So it is there's an element of truth but a gentle pushback. What's the alternative? I mean, you have to give that away in your 20s and 30s. When you come back, you have to preach and teach. And if people start listening, and then they see you evolve, well then let's hope they evolve
with you or if they remain where I was once upon and show that they're still good at that. And I've said this minders on your interview is not as the movement I left as an evil shaytani movement. I've said this publicly. I disagree with that movement, and as a lot of head, but I have moved on it's up to them. If they want to remain there, that's fine if they want to move into it's fine. Right? No, I remember the days when you weren't on the celebrity circuit and we had the fight to get you just on like MSA national stage.
I remember that as well that they they didn't want me because they thought I was too fundamentalist at that time. Right Right, right. Yeah, sure. So that's probably a good time because what's making the rounds on recently is the interview an interview did on Jazeera with Matthew Hassan and Linda Sarsour back in 2015.
And there's people are that's another video that's been rehashed now right and I feel like people kind of want to understand what's going on and people have said people who are giving you the benefit out is like maybe Shrek Yasser shouldn't have gone on that platform because Matthew Hudson, there comes to be a you have to have a certain level of understanding where you're gonna go like so. Haha, you were on with Tucker Carlson before? I've been with all I don't keep track. Yeah, you know, yeah, for example. So Riley Tucker Carlson, Mehdi, Hassan, these guys are professional interrogators, right. And there's the critique of you. One of the critiques was that chick Yasser,
with all due respect, should have realized that, hey, I'm walking into Alliance like, like, like, the hornet's nest here, right? I'm a field that is not my area of expertise. It's not academic, right? That makes it sound which would be totally easy for me.
All right, still debating 30 points, right? Yeah. But when you're approached like that back then what's the mindset when you're first approached that you always you're approached from for some kind of panel, right?
Like, again, Linda Sarsour in 2015 is different than what we know about her. Back then. You know, I remember we I invited her on madman, Luke's Oui, oui, I met her in 2016 at a man at the, at one of the, the street festival. And when sim went up to her, and we gave her salami, like, we'd love to have you on some time. And she's like, Hey, I'm really busy with the voting with the election right now. But hit me up after right. So we invited her to write, you know, so equally over time. Yeah. It's dangerous to back project. Like I said, even me, I have two or three generic statements praising and how much you've forgotten as a hijabi. Right, right. And then the stances weren't known
back then, you know, she didn't dance until whatever year so to find that clip, and then say, Oh, he's supporting or whatever saying with the with the other sisters, as well. But anyway, to get to your point, there's an element of truth to this. And you're absolutely right in my head that whoever walks into these types of interviews, should be completely prepared to do so.
I have been interviewed by multiple CNN, Fox, you know, NPR going on many times. Overall. Overall, I always pressed hard on a person spiritually, I always make the right choices is the best thing to me for me to do or not that I prayed at that time as well. My goal, of course, is always between me and Allah subhanaw taala. My goal is that what I consider to be mainstream, Islam rarely gets the chance to be represented at NPR, at CNN, or whatever it might be, like to get a person who's grounded in their tradition, to try to explain to a broader audience, okay, so this is my mindset that it's not as if it's between me or two or three other shoe. If they don't invite me, they're probably going to
get some hardcore progressive guy. So weighing that right?
Is it the lesser of two evils once again, that I go on, and perhaps slip up make the mistake or two and overall present some some orthodox beliefs, right? It's a risk, it's a risk benefit, a cost benefit analysis. So inshallah I pray Allah azza wa jal allows me to raise my ego or overcome my desire of fame and whatnot, the goal is that we don't get enough representation as mainstream Muslims. And once again, it's not as if it's between me. And you know, Shadi, or somebody, it's typically between me or between, you know, some complete Yanni. I don't want to mention names here, but some academic PhD in Islamic Studies, who has no interest or love of the tradition, you get my
point here. Right, right. Right. Between those two, I'd rather comment and it's not my area, I'm gonna be the first to say politics is not my area. Interviews with with these types of cutthroat, you know, journalist is not my area, I don't go around sending my resumes to these people, I want to come on your show, once in a blue moon, you know, my name is going to be pushed to them. And every time I press the hara, and sometimes they say no, sometimes I say yes. When I feel that, and I have said no to more interviews. And I've said yes, by the way, for the I'm going on the record for this, I have said no to more interviews, because I feel this is not suitable for me or for whatever
reason, right? That particular interview. Again,
I set a phrase in there that definitely was not the wisest phrase. And it has been misunderstood. And I need to clarify that. And no doubt, if a person messes up, you should be clarified. And I'm going to clarify that, but also made gently remind our Muslim viewers that if a person makes an ambiguous phrase, look at it in light of hundreds, if not 1000s, of other phrases to and it is a mistake to go dig something up 678 years ago that hardly anybody knows about, and use it to create an entire drama that explicitly contradicts very clear cut statements that I haven't handed I've been very consistent about. Now the ambiguous phrase was we support the political rights of the LGBT
communities, not the moral rights, right. And as Allah is my witness what I intended by this was not what was understood, as Allah as my witness. I never have ever lobbied or asked Muslims to lobby for LGBT rights. It was not even my intention. When I said the phrase, that's not what I intended, what was intended. And I will defend this and everybody on this platform will intended well, we'll defend it because that's the way we live. What's that? We're going to give them the civil rights of being a human being in this country. If they walked into our shop, we're not going to deny them service. If there are colleagues that office, right, we're not going to spit in their faces, like we're going to
give them the rights of being a fellow citizen, their political rights of doing what they're doing, even as we disagree. what is meant here is just like, we're gonna, so I had this case by I had this actually, this actual thing happened to me, where a Muslim businessman said, you know, I have an employee who's, you know, LGBT, and we give health insurance to all of our employees.
Now by law, I have to give it to his spouse as well, what am I going to do? Right? And I said, You're not responsible in the eyes of Allah, this is a generic rule, you have to give to everybody in your in your, you know, you know, corporation, you're the CEO, you're not responsible this is you don't like it in your heart, but it's a generic law, you're forced to follow the long year, right. And you're being forced to do so politically, this is what I mean is that you have another example, a landlord, and this happens again, to two people that are married to each other of the same gender apply. And, you know, one had been his house legally, he cannot refuse them on that ground, or else
he's going to be sued. You know, this, everybody knows this. Legally, he cannot refuse them the right if they meet the criteria and their bank accounts, whatever it might be, he's gonna go to jail or whatever get his life or whatever it might be. Here's the question, does the shitty I require this person to be a martyr? And stand up and say, I'm gonna go to jail before I give my house to these two people? Or does the shady I recognize that you know, what? I follow who I myself and like Crawford, Dean, and what are you going to do with it is the world that we live in. So what I'm trying to be pragmatic over here is that the Shediac does not require you to sacrifice your license
to live in this country by being rude or crude to everybody you disagree with. And we get along with people that are worse than, you know, immorality in their sexual lives. We get along with people that are Hagen's that are worshipping shape on devil worshippers. Right. If a devil worshippers in your office, what are you going to do? You're going to smile in his face and try your best to avoid them as much as you can. But you're going to get along with him. Right? So that's what I mean, the political rights are shouldn't have been phrased that way. What I mean is the right to be a part of our society. They have that right. You're not going to take that right away. Okay, could have been
phrased better, but that's what I meant. I never meant to lobby and campaign for the rights of them to get married. And I've never said this, and I never even hint to them.
I have always a comment about this issue of
the moment that we say that we're against something. All of a sudden everything pivots, it pivots to we're victims. And will you help us? Right?
We have to realize we're that framing of things were being played.
It's a complete framing, right? Besides that, it's not it might not even be true, right? It may be true, more true of others. But the moment that some of these groups come out,
and the moment they feel any little tension from you, they will pivot to look at how we're being victimized, aren't you gonna help us? It's just a secondary way. A second wave, first wave, see, if you get your support, second wave, get your sympathy. Right. And by that people slowly adapt to that. So now back in your time when you had that interview, I think this was all new. It's we've been seeing this for 10 years now. As soon as you disagree. All right, let's pivot now to show you how victimized we are. And do you support us not to be victimized? So now you've muddied the water or they've they've because you have just you can't nobody would say, Oh, do you want us to commit
suicide? Do you want us to be killed? So they find a way to soften you with that? Nobody else does this, right. It's a very smart tactic. Because nobody says, Hey, except Islam. No, I'm not going to accept Islam. Okay, well, Muslims are being killed. Right? Do you support our right to stay alive? Like nobody does? Dad would like that. No other group operates like that. Maybe right now. Maybe it worked. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it'll work. Maybe they had better marketing advice, but consistently, over and over, they will elicit some sympathy out of you. Right? They will elicit some sympathy out of you. And that is a technique to soften you, right? Where I'm going to say look, hey,
we're being victimized. Okay. A lot of people are being victimized. I only have 24 hours in a day
to deal with yourselves. Okay.
It's that sounds harsh. That's how we all live. Right? A million people are being victimized. Do I have time for this? YouTube? Even Muslims, YouTube, every YouTuber Yemen? Next, Afghanistan. Okay, I feel sorry for you once. I'm here unwinding after dinner. And they get sympathy, video sympathy. Sympathy is enough. I can't, no human being can do this. So just to realize that this is a strategy. Observe carefully. The moment that there's one tension, there's no support, it immediately shifts to how bad were victimized. We're about to kill ourselves. Everyone's killing us. So give us sympathy, if not support than sympathy, sympathy for what something far away from the cause. Right oh, for my
life, for my employment. So we just have to be aware that this is a repeated strategy, and it's not something that it's that we would have known in the past I think
All of us got played by it, but watch it. It's a consistent strategy. You want to be a prime example of this. So on my channel, by the way, I told check Yasser, this and he, you know, one of my earlier shows me two years ago I interviewed a transgender Hafez. Okay, Dr. Shetty only if you do that or not like, memorize the Quran demand everything they demand they memorize the Quran, and then they transition later in life. So they memorize the Quran as a youth. Right? So when I was and they were justifying from a Islamic point of view reusing the Scot cool, you know, that kind of you know, that was super Scott cool, right? And then when I started pushing back a little bit, that exact thing
happened. It was like, well, the average lifespan of trans men is or trans women is 24 or 25. And suicide rate this and like, and I'm like, Listen, no one's saying to kill you guys. No one's saying that. I'm just saying you can't say this is like acceptable in Islam. That's just those two different things. Right. So you didn't get a you to defend something about them? You know, exactly. Well, in one sense, because you can never say that people be tiptoed around more than these people. Right. Okay. Yes, It's haram but 1000. But this but this, but this, but this, but this, right? Isn't this how we talked about this? Right? No one gets more sympathy in the entire world more than the
Palestinians more than more than Native Americans in the past. Right? Nobody says, it gives more sympathy to any group. I say this, my sympathy is not free. Right. And I don't feel like giving it out.
That's how simple it is. Am I obligated by any morality or anything to go sympathizing all day long?
We have to realize that we're being played nice. Can you give me just two minutes? My father needs help downstairs? I'm coming up. Okay. Nope, nope. No problem. No problem.
I'll just use the way the three you guys are all cancelled, because you're not on the same platform as a transgender outfit.
I remember that interview that you did. I didn't watch it. But I remember. Luke's right. No, it was on my channel, the madman lives. That's one of the things that I like, with my channel. I was like, there's probably stuff I can do that med Muslims can do. Right? Um, but with that one, it was just like, because back then when I started, I just kind of like idea that like, hey, I want to I'll talk to anybody. I didn't understand where they're coming from, but I was there. And so I friend of mine reached out to me. And he's a hustler. He's a he's a hustler. He looks a lot like Missouri. And he's like, I got something for you. Are you ready for this? And I was like, oh, yeah, sure. I'll tell
you. It was
the most Dre I had to really prepare for that interview. So I talked to Moby invade.
And mobian kind of helped me formulate some thoughts. He sent me some stuff. And I did an interview in person. It was on Zoom. It was in person.
And it was like the most draining interview I've ever done. Yeah. Because of like, your emotion. Right, what your emotion? Exactly. You're tiptoeing to, because the thing of it is, right. A lot of us we there's this balance to that shake, yes. are mentioned in the thing is like, okay, many of us we have we have corporate jobs. You know, we've got to be able to, you know, keep that keep that like income flow, and we can't do something stupid, based on some statement, because that'll cancel. Don't do this interview.
Not because we don't believe in it. Because these people are not fair. Right? Not just right. She agrees with me. 100%. But these are the people we're talking about. They're not fair people. Right? Yeah. And they're vicious. Right. When you deal with someone who's not fair, you can almost like should just not deal with them. Right. Right. You know? Yeah, so so so so I think that's where it's almost like something that we could say is acceptable today, because it's on an internet, you can pick two years down the road. We don't know what 15 minutes down the road. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, true. I mean, I think we assume a level of risk, right. And I think sometimes we don't understand.
We probably haven't really thought I know myself. I haven't really, really, really thought that through. Right. I'll tell you why is because now they're too busy with the wild Trump right. To eat to eat us up. Yeah, if they were finished with them, and they didn't have to deal with them. Yep. Then we'd be easy snacks for them to shut down. Right. But we're not worth shutting down. We're like a politically non is set. We're politically not threatening to anybody. Right, right there so not worth shutting down or too small. Right? Of an operation. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine over Thanksgiving, oh, friend of mine. He's now like a director at one of these like
multinationals, consumer products companies, right. And it's a very progressive company. And I was telling him that, hey, I interviewed Richard Spencer. Yeah. And he was like, and he was and I was like, if I worked for you guys, what would that mean? And he was like, Well, depends.
It will certainly be scrutinized. Right?
If you were buddy buddy with him the whole time and agree with everything, you could lose your job. Yep. You push back a little bit. Okay, maybe right. But at the end of the day that, like one of the reasons I one of the things I learned from that interview was what the what people are willing to be upset about. Yeah versus not upset about so the transgender half of the interview crickets. Okay. You don't say nothing.
Richard Spencer,
you know, everything, you know, hit the fan, right? Yeah. Um, you know, so I think, you know, it's because what it depends on what things are being like, like, I'll give you another example. I was approached recently a few weeks ago, like maybe like a few weeks ago to interview Avi Jewish, the Jew who went to Medina.
Okay. And I was like, That would be interesting, but it's just lose, lose. It's lose lose, because
I think it's a lose because number one, if I'm too buddy buddy with them. Right? Okay, I'm now moi, Zinus sympathizer, etc, etc. If I push back too hard, and this dude isn't some random like, Jewish dude. He's actually like, some high up he works. He works in a think tank. If I get labeled some anti Semite that has career Esper problems with my career, etc, that other issues, right? So, you know, I'm like, like, what's the point of it? You know, I wouldn't be interested but then you're kind of like, and I think you'll learn that over time because I kind of my personal position on platforming is generally like platform until proven otherwise. Right? You there has to be something
right but that one I was like, that was kind of like a scary thing. I'm like, Alright, I don't know I just don't
you know, you know what I go there that but like, I actually like the husband's take class. And I don't I don't think I've ever talked to you about this issue. Right. Because you're someone who's you know, dealt with the you were talking with the far right earlier. And there was a Richard Spencer interview. I don't know if you knew I actually interviewed him or not. That happened about a year ago. Were you I don't know if you did you know that. No, I missed it bro. Spencer's all over the place. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, he's a different I think he's he's different. Probably because I recently I think the alt right. That project was a failure.
It bombed.
And what is it guy up to it? By the way, if I can, I don't want to derail what you're saying. Some shots. I mean, not long ago, he did it up to exactly. Does he have a job is anyone employing him? He's living in Montana, and white people that are so cheap. He's got a spot and like he's been in between what he moves between Montana and Virginia.
He is trying to he's still a white, like, I would say a nationalist, he would say, but he was trying to clarify that his his whole thing is, he was trying to explain to me like he's all about the preservation of European values. The problem is, I don't think he can, he can really identify what that is. Because I'm like what you're talking about? Because he because I was like, Hey, I asked him, What if you're a suburban kid from Dallas, Texas, right.
Parents are classical Republicans, right? They're not all writers, you go to University of Virginia. So what happens is he goes to Europe on a backpacking trip. And he sees the Romans of room, and he gets into Shakespeare, and he sees like, all these things that appeal to him about like, European civilization. And he's like, he wants this right. He wants to revive it. He said, in his words, I want to revive babble. The problem is, he's not religious. So the conservatives in America who are Christian aren't gonna align with them.
You know, and he has a very specific, niche niche of what he his values are. And therefore, when it comes to that, and therefore, it's like, I'm like, at the end of the day, I don't see how this works. Because there's not enough people that actually buy into these definition of values that you that you're about, right. And like, you know, he supported Biden and 2020, and all that stuff. So you know, I, you know, we had a cordial conversation, for sure, I would say, and people were mad about that.
And the idea was that he was approached to me, so I didn't go reach out to him. Somebody came to me like, Richard Spencer wants to talk to a Muslim because he actually respects Islam and Muslims, because they have, like, some stances that he agrees with. Like, right. So I was like, Okay, fair enough. And people asked me and I was getting interrogated, like, Hey, why would you? Like what kind of thought did you put into it? And I was like, I don't know, like, 10 seconds worth. Right. You're a podcaster. Yeah, right. The podcast is a different role in the community. There's a little bit more spacious rule. Right, right. Yeah. As we inject yesterday, we had we were talking about that
each function in the community has a different toolkit and different set of associates that is acceptable, right? Yeah. So I mean, if I
I go to a guy's house who's a physician? Yeah, don't expect to go see turbans there. I expect his colleagues, right, right, or whatever they are. Right. Right. Right. Because that's his that. So you as a podcaster, you're gonna have different
there's gonna be some limits. Right? Right. You have to observe the city out yourself as a person. Sure. But as someone who is a conduit of information about other human beings, that's what you are. Right? You're a conduit of information about other human beings that have some relevance to your audience. Right. So I think that, you know, there's some there's some leeway, I wouldn't be so shocked. Like, it's a terrible thing that you did before. He's also he's also insignificant now. Right? There's a big difference. It's not like he's actively hurting anybody anymore. Correct. But I'm curious, would you be relevant?
No, I said he's irrelevant. Oh, yeah. Then lead us out to pasture. So I have one question for you mean, but then I want to ask us questions. Check acid to Sure. The first question, I'm just curious about the finances or the economics in this country? Does a person like him like get a job? Does he work at a?
No. So he is banned on YouTube? He's not banned on Twitter.
You know, if that's a really good question, um, a lot of these guys are they use this platform called bid shoot.
So a lot of their videos are on there. I don't want these written anything. Specifically. I actually don't know. Because in the UK, there's more of a welfare culture, right.
You know, like, like, like, I interviewed this lady named Claire Cole, who's, you know, who I was wondering. She like live streams 10 hours a day. I'm like, how do you what do you do? Like, what job pays that and you have not had her followers on YouTube? Like, you have enough the algorithm, you're not gonna get paid by YouTube? MashAllah Z check. Yes. There's YouTube award in the back. By the way.
Your plaque kind of stood out to me. I was like, What is that for 1 million? I wish wrote? Oh, no, it's so one zero less than a million. Okay. Last year, okay. Okay, no, no make dua Shala. One day? Shabbat. So, you know, I actually don't know, that's a really good question. Um, within our community, the people who I will I have a hypothesis, and I'm not going to say them. And I've told people, I've told people in the inner circle this, that so many people who were spent all their time, they can do a live stream, like 2pm on a weekday for four hours, which kind of what I did today, but I work from home. Today only right? I'm normally in the office. But people were doing
live streams all the time. 11am 2pm multiple times a week. Right? You look at our Patreon, you're like, kinda I don't know. Some of them. I think they're being paid off by feds. I'll be upfront. I think some because if not, then nothing affects livestream. I can assure you that. No, no, but
Right. But But I think that like, if you think about the, you know, this whole idea of Shaykh Yasir talks about like, these people their agenda, if you've seen all they're known for is causing division and attacking scholars, and tearing down the establishment of scholarship. Right?
Who's the best? who's invested in that?
You know, I mean, that was that islamophobe that paid some mold to enter care for $100,000. Like
Emerson. Yeah, you know what I thought yucky? Here's this guy. Emerson, I do we do God shape on. And he's spending massive amounts of money, to infiltrate care, and to get some dirt and whatnot. And here we have somebody who says to be in our camp, doing far more effective,
and bad mouthing, and what? And you know, what, again, hasn't I say this too, honestly, you know, I love the founders of care, the founder of care, doing great work, but I'm also a critic internally, I don't like a lot of what they do. But at the end of the day, there is no other organization, right, that is doing what they're doing. So to take that organization as being symptomatic of the worst of the worst, demonizing them, who really benefits in the long run, when you create this amount of distrust. I mean, if you look at the agenda of some of these people, essentially, mainstream Islam is lost. The largest organizations are the most corrupt, the most effective
preachers are the worst because they're, they have the hidden agenda. According to this
book down and I'll name my agenda is very clear. It's the preservation of Islam of the next generation. That's the agenda, want to preserve this deen of Allah. And in order to do that, we have new challenges we're going to have to read through them has always been my agenda. But the doubts that are being sold are frankly, almost destructive of mainstream faith. Who wins in the end of the day? Anyway, so these are these are difficult questions. Oh, well, so. So brothers. We have about 15 minutes before Dr. Shadi has to go. Hassan Sheikh Yasser gonna stay on for a little side segment, the very end, but is there anything that you want to cover on this political engagement topic that
we didn't like? Yeah, this is related to it. Sure. That's the question I said I wanted to bring up and
and check to see if God has his opinion also has its opinion and your opinion. Sure. We know that in Islam like excess anger, harshness, we always speak against these things right? Yep. Rama, we promote mercy, sympathy, empathy, we promote these things. But I'm seeing a medical entrance of shaytaan through people through sympathy, misplaced sympathy, right? And that's something that we need to bring up as a religious discourse as a religious issue.
You sympathy to a certain
group groups are to certain things is haram. Or it's something that I don't know if you say haram, because it's an emotion, but it's misguided.
And it's a type of way to actually lure people into something that it's a gateway into accepting something else.
I think we have to put more light on that and shed more light on that. And this may be why the prophets I sent him warned that the digits biggest followers will be women. Right? Why? Because he uses sympathy.
Right? He takes you the most misguided person the most misguided
and make them and objects of victimhood and sympathy.
No doubt, what you said is 100% accurate, nobody can disagree. But as usual, the devils in the details, right? What is misplaced sympathy? Who's going to define misplaced sympathy? That's where the controversy is going to come. And as for me, I have been very clear when it comes to this issue of LGBT. If a person desires to live in accordance with the Shediac, even if they fall short, they have my utmost sympathy.
Yeah, and if a person flouts the shittier, justifies, right, has no concern or care, then they've lost my sympathy. Unfortunately, even this is problematic for a lot of people, right? Because they want to demonize even a sinner.
They want to say that you should have no sympathy for the center in this case. And I strongly disagree, especially given the environment we live in where our youth are being supported to go down this path, if we're going to block the doors of sympathy and drama to them. And if we're going to shut off any hope of Subhanallah, maybe in different societies, harshness would have played the trick to bring them back to the truth. But in this society that we live in, as long as they wish to live in accordance to the Shetty out, then the doors of the ministry shall remain open to them. They're not trying to normalize, they're not flouting. It's their personal sin that you happen to
know about because of, you know, whatever they've come to you or their friends have come to whatever it might be. They have the utmost sympathy.
I totally agree. But what's so then what's the issue of contention, the broader line here? So what we agree with that the it's the broader lobby of the Zionist use this? Sympathy is the number one arrow, okay, look at us, we've been victimized. So they want to soften you. Good. We're not talking points anymore. We're talking emotions. This other group with transgender lobby, LGBT lobby, they use the same arrow, they use the same tactic to soften a person up to you by saying, look at how, okay, you're not agreeing with this. But look at how much we're being killed. Look at how much we're suffering, look at how much they committed suicide. I think it would give me a suicide for other
reasons, right? Look at how much this that in the other. Right. So it's almost the emotional frame in context vibration that you're in when you're dealing with these people is there's so miskeen and we're the harsh words. We have to be aware of this. That's plant.
So Dr. Shetty, may I ask you, is there any mainstream day chef God and part of him that is preaching this type of stuff?
No, all of us everyone who comes in?
Yeah, but every one of us I know. It's just an observation. The moment we have to make a statement about this group of people, it must be prefaced and couched and tiptoed with so much sympathy and care and love. Right. So that's the point that it's I'm just making an observation, not an accusation that this is a planned strategy, agreed. Let me also make an observation. Let us also not fall prey to the counter reaction. Yeah, which we see amongst the Shabaab, which is any emotion that perhaps might give a modicum of sympathy is perceived as Pro LGBT. For in fact, being compassionate itself has become a slur unbelievable to me that the dean of Rama and the Prophet of Rama and the
book of Rama has become a slur
When you're compassionate, Mr. Miyagi, unbelievable to me, so we also have to be careful of the counter reaction, right? Yeah. Where, again, it's this notion of an easy target. You can't blame the country you live in. So you blame your chef, you blame a politician, even though that person is nowhere near the amount of influence on your kids, like I'm saying. So we also have to be careful, Dr. shoddy of the opposite, which is the counter reaction of being fair in this regard, and understanding the world has changed. And this lifestyle is being normalized, which it wasn't 50 years ago. Hence, when our Shabaab faced the option of being embraced by that crowd being celebrated
being put on a pedestal, we're going to have to lower the rhetoric of 50 years ago. Yeah, we're going to have to, and this isn't the Masada of the deen. And this is what the religion dictates. We cannot speak like our grandfathers did, I'm not criticizing how they did, it was a different time and place. And we're gonna have to couch that language with some sympathy that maybe they didn't have 50 years ago. And by the way, this is a generational thing. There's an entire generation that comes in, if you're not in the vibration of sympathy for them, they think you're the devil, right? And it's not just come loose, it's entire generation, that you can't talk to them. They're so
fragile. And it's almost like, my heart is tired of sympathy. For this way, culture is gonna speak symbol. This woke culture of canceled culture will self implode, because they will start canceling each other after a while. It's only a matter of time. And in my humble opinion, their own trajectory shall be their downfall. All we have to do is remain consistent upon our ideals. All we have to do is to continue to preach the truth, this movement cannot last because it is an affront not only to Allah and his messenger in the Shetty, it is different to how Allah created the creation, the core of the creation, right? If you cannot sustain a civilization that doesn't believe in gender, it's
not going to work. It's only a matter of time, we just have to be consistent in our preaching, I want to say something as well, I just want to say in a practical perspective, you know, I've met two types of Muslims, you know, the, that are struggling with these issues. In particular, they are Muslims that they have struggles with, towards stress and certain temptations that we are completely against. And yet, they're humble, and they love and they respect the dean to keep it private. And you actually can be sympathetic to bring them in to doing Tjahaja of the neffs to take pride in the Quran and the Sunnah, and grow. And honestly, they can be the best of people. And then there's the
others, which themselves may not even be engaging in that. But they want to be overly welcoming, and overly liberal in that approach. And then we think, and I've been in those shoes where I tried to, okay, man, I want to pull in these young liberal activist Muslims, I want to make them feel welcome. I don't want to scare them off as this beautiful Muslim guy. And unfortunately, for those who take their activism as their dean, for some of them, you really cannot win them over. And eventually you got to just cut losses. And I feel that is the most dangerous group. It isn't even the non Muslims that are like that. It isn't even the Muslims that may have their own personal sins, and you can win
them over and support them and they need our support. It's it's those who take their activism as their dean while claiming to be Muslim. And it's very dangerous. Well, the homestand shirt back to the sympathy thing. So Dr. Shah, we were talking earlier about the whole transgender half an interview. In that interview, I remember, because I have the I'm of the opinion that people don't want to have those feelings. Right, you something you don't have control over it. If we're heterosexual. We know we're attracted to women when we hit a certain age, right? At the same time. I don't, it doesn't like I'm not at the point that you just completely. There's has to be a reason you
might. I remember I was having a conversation with shake. Jessie, Mackenzie. Jana. Shake Jessie Mackenzie, several, like a decade ago, very well. I know him before, you know. Yeah, he's got eight kids. Right now remember, we were having talked about like, he told me something before I had kids like my hand. The thing about it is, you can do all you want, you really don't have control. At the end of the day, you don't have control. And so when I was speaking to this individual on my podcast, and he's telling me about madressa, and going hips and like trying to be in the dean, and then when he starts realizing same * attraction, I actually felt like, yeah, we kind of screwed up, because
we didn't have the infrastructure in place. Because he was trying to work through it originally. This individuals of Islam is a man who transitioned to a woman. Okay. Um, is that sick? Justin Mackenzie should not chagasic transition I'm talking about I'm talking about I'm talking about like, Chick Jesse, give me this advice that we don't have control because sometimes a lot of a lot of the brothers we talked to, they think that they people choose to be gay.
And I'm like, not necessarily. Sometimes you have those desires kick in somehow we don't know how, but like the some of the people aren't choosing that. Right. I think there is there is there is some studies coming out. And I think we should save this for the experts on that, but that it is heavily culturally influenced by what's normalized. Okay. I mean, it isn't genetic and scientific as they try to make it, you know, so, you know, I think that's an interesting thing. But that goes more to what Shediac mean, I really respect a lot of what Shadi said as well as what sheffey. So I think, from a practical perspective, started jumping. I'll see her for a second perspective, I can and have
taken the position shift. Yes, sir has when it comes to engagement, and even how we say things, I mean, I was in Orlando around the Pulse shooting. So I literally drove to the hospital and supported the families there on the ground. And I absolutely condemned what happened and, and stood in solidarity against violence. I mean, who wouldn't? Right? And I stand by that. And I think we did it in a balanced way. I stand by my statements. However, I think now it is time after 1020 years of seeing what's happening, that we understand the vibes shed he's talking about, and the long term implications of just constantly having to talk about sympathy. And maybe it's time we start shifting
and this country can shift or overturning of Roe v Wade as a great example. But also there's so many Muslims that drank the Kool Aid so much that they're tiptoeing around that and, and they're outraged about that, and hospital lovin and will will kill, but we have to learn and we have to adapt, we have to change, we have to give room for that. And we have to pull each other up and advise and have it be based in love and brotherhood, not in some of the ways we're seeing it happening. Before we let me just let me just also comment on this Roe versus Wade thing. Honestly, it was not surprising because we know this, but it is distressing to see the default of the next generation is basically
pro liberal pro, you know, jumping onto the bandwagon of the progressive, right, the progressive left, excuse me. And
obviously, the people that will knowledge, all of us are very concerned that this is not the right way to go.
But the fact of the matter is most of our audience that listens to us is not on that. And there are segments of our audience that as a reaction to the progressive left have jumped on the far right. And that's why sometimes people like myself seem to be a little bit more harsh on the far right within our ranks. Partly because primarily because we know they're listening to us. The progressive left doesn't really listen to us. They've already marked me as a fundamentalist as a, you know, hardcore fanatic as anti this and that they don't listen to us. They really don't that the mainstream bulk of the American Muslim community does not respect traditional scholarship of any
stripe. We all know that. Right? It's frustrating, but it is what it is. So sometimes when we're a little bit more harsh at the the far right within our ranks, it's simply because we know that our message is actually being listened to by them, not because we think they're a bigger threat. No, I say this bluntly, the biggest threat is indeed liberalism. The biggest threat is indeed radical feminism. It is this complete reorientation of sexuality and gender. And I'll say this publicly, and I've said it in the past, but when I'm speaking on these types of podcasts and threats, Facebook and social media, when I do bring up the other side, it's because I know my words are actually reaching
them. And hope that's clear. They're not the bigger threat. It's a nuisance at best, but why it's a nuisance that is irritating. It's kind of eating inside the OMA but it's not going to destroy the OMA say, it's been there done that we've seen this extremism since the days of the hydrogen, the Mercury's is another phase. Unfortunately, many of the youth caught up in this phase, many of them history shows us will lose their spirituality, because they jumped on to a version of the faith that is too hardcore. And they can only have it in their MSA bubbles, they can only have it in their parents basements, they cannot have it in corporate America, they cannot happen when they have a
wife and teenage daughters at home. Right? And so one of two things will happen. small percentage will mellow out and join the mainstream and that's when the apologists come and check us we're so sorry, this and that, you know, and the majority of them, they just fizzle out. And they start being religious because the level of religiosity that they thought was the real deal is not and it is impractical, and it is not the city of Allah subhanho Medina, hence why we are preaching out to that that group because we hope to save the most of them and to keep on reminding them that follow the senior odema Not me, I'm still mid age, follow those bigger than me follow those with fully white
beards and whatnot, and who have wisdom will have training in this and it's not just book knowledge. You know, I've said it publicly I'll say it again right now as we stand. You know, a mama's a shocker to me is the chef of American Muslims. You know, he is the person I look up to the most when it comes to not because he has the most book knowledge we all know with utmost love and respect he doesn't, but what he has, none of us have and that's wisdom of being a part of this land, what it means to be a part in part
So having gone through the struggles that none of us could have gone through, why don't you look up to him and go to him for this practical advice, Imam Suraj. Watch go to him. He's been in the trenches. He's been here. Jamal Badawi, founder of MSN is the go to him, right? These are our leaders, even if they don't have the type of book knowledge that some upstarts of the Madeira says in Jemison, Emmys and others have, that's not what we're looking for. We're not looking for book knowledge, frankly, sometimes book knowledge, a little bit of it is more dangerous than a bit of worldly wisdom. So my humble pushback to these purists, I know you're coming from a place of
sincerity. I know you feel betrayed. When people like myself and others don't use the type of language you'd like to hear, right? Fine, dismiss us, but then go to those senior to a scope to those whom I call upon, I'm in trouble. Don't know what to do which position to take. I'll call it the mumsy. I'll call up these bills this year. What do you think I should do? Why don't you go to them, they have track records longer than our own. But whatever you do, don't go to somebody whose only credibility is causing fitna online, just don't go to that type of crowd because honestly, it's just going to be disruptive to your own spirituality in the long run, Allah. Dr. Shadi, I know you
gotta run, do you have any closing thoughts before you head out of here?
100 out, this was a good episode. And I only have one closing thought that oftentimes, if you face an enemy, right, you become more sympathetic to your enemy's enemy. So a lot of guys who are on the coasts, and I've noticed this, they actually swing the other way. They seen the damage of the woke left. And they may say their sympathies will go to the right. Or right leaning right. Guys in the south, grew up in Islam, they may have seen the evils of the right. Like they may have tasted some of that racism that the right has.
So they may have. So I think it's really good to have that perspective. Right? Because that would explain why, you know, they, like put a wall between them and the right. And others are almost like very close with the right. Others have a wall with the left and others are close with the left, right. Like we're talking within the acceptable parameter, but having a leaning right leaning. So a lot of it's based on experience. Right. So that's just an observation that I'm making. It doesn't have to be right, but it's just my observation on things I may have, it might be limited. But
that's all that extra thing that I had to add. Otherwise, thank you all very much. Just like good luck for joining us today. Let me let me just say one thing with Dr. Sandy online before I leave, I want everybody to know, Dr. Shadi and I frankly we know this we hardly see eye to eye about so many issues. yet. I know I speak for the both of us when I say there's genuine love and respect, compassion and concern, genuine making dua for the other and wanting to see you flourish. Yet we disagree about everything. Almost. I mean, you get my point, right? Whenever we're together, it's always and this is what I'm trying to impart to the people that are listening. You don't have to see
eye to eye to to understand the other person is sincere loves Allah and His Messenger wants the head for the OMA that's the that's my goal. It's not really about politics or what No, it's about bringing a sense of who is really on our team, the one on our team, you know them by the fact that they want what is best for the Ummah they want to please Allah and they're trying to follow the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah when a person is of that paradigm even if they end up going a slightly different path still, you're within the same family and you love each other like the same family you don't take them as an enemy simply because you don't see eye to eye on some tertiary
issues. That's the point I say publicly so that people notice that usually when Dr. Shalini and myself come together it'll end up in not a heated debate it's always a loving conversation about how we disagree about something isn't that pickets are chatty right that is the case and and some of these brothers too that are even are even here with me in the studio. They said well what's this going to be about? I said firstly, she is of comedy you will not find somebody more sincere to the general community right and his preaching clips are perfect right I love the the preaching clips even my daughter and my my son's idea come back and my son was upset he couldn't even come today
right
and so and I said that
his sincerity to them and is to deal with an IQ loss and when he deals with people right as why at anytime I'm gonna go and have a meeting with him right at any time so it's reciprocated on our side
like I did this morning this mashallah just warms my heart so
we'll talk soon after Shadi and then we'll close it off with Che che CA Yes sir. See the house and for the for the remaining part of it. Okay, does that come okay brothers
so, um
Cindy has said to Schakowsky, do you have anything else on this topic before I segue into? I think I'm more Imani yacht segue based on Hassan's experience.
I'd love to hear your closing remarks that we need that brother. Right that that love and how we approach how we move forward. Also, just very quickly on the political side, in terms of what she shared, he said, I mean, I think some great advice is now is the time for the American Muslim community stepped back also, and this is a secondary issue, I think the primary issue is how we interact with each other. But on a secondary issue, now's the time to step back, actually from entanglement. With the with the left, I think we've done it far too heavy, far too deep. And now's the time to pull out because even the Liberals are not happy with each other, you know, Democratic
2020, you know, the world was very different. And if some of us made certain decisions at that time, frankly, I don't know if I change those decisions back in the moment, right? Or, but for now, yes, context is everything. And now we've seen the dangers, you know, and Hamdulillah, Islamophobia is much better now, meaning much less than it was, you know, 1015 years ago, you know, 100, and now things have changed. And so we can wait them aside, amplifies it all over again. And if things happen another 10 years, we'll do that, again. It's the principle. And the application can vary from person to time, to context to place. And even if we disagree on the application, as long as the
principle is followed, we cannot take the other person as an enemy. That was really the whole philosophy. I guess, one final comment from me, before we move segue to the other topic, these types of conversations need to happen in every community, not just online. Every community needs to bring its political activist and its clergy and have a frank dialogue, open house, right. And the people need to hear because that's the only way the bar of tolerance is going to be raised. We have a huge divide between the political activists and between the clergy, I'm not going to mention any names here. I've been invited to a very, very major conference of global activists of the Muslim
community, the exact same weekend, there is a very major conference of roadmap taking place in another city, I mean, speak, I'm going to be speaking at the both of these conferences, the two are unaware of each other's presence even, they don't even know that there's this other conference taking place. Both of these, by the way, are national, everybody, you know, and yet, there's not a single person attending both, as far as I know, except me, subhanAllah, Yanni, what type of divide is this, that all of our activists and they're all doing things for the sake of, you know, the global oma in their own way, and all of our ulama and they're all doing things that we're used to
and accustomed to, and they're not even aware of each other's existence, much less communication. I think that's a major problem. And we demonize the other stereotype the other right, the religious clergy, dismiss the activist as being completely religiously, incompetent, religiously insincere. And that is not the case. It's a very big stereotype. Many amongst them, love Allah subhanho wa taala, they actually pray us and knows this himself. And if you let them, you know, they pray on the hill, you know, even if they don't pray five times a day, they recognize some of them, they recognize they should, and they try to squeeze it, and I met people working on the hill, you know,
and whatnot. And they told me that they will into the rooms and the Pentagon and whatnot, and make sure they pray regularly, five times a day. So they're doing what they're doing, thinking that is for them. And we have on the other side, remember, we need to bridge the gap, have conversations amongst each other, so that we understand the paradigm and not take enemies of those who genuinely desire good, but you move the profits away seven. So see the house on real quick, um, if we are going to break from the left, I think the trap we have to avoid then is like not do the same thing with the right so that I was actually gonna say that I'm just gonna say I want to put disclaimer,
one, right from the left does not mean we commit to the right. Again, we have to remain our independence. And we can support on a case by case. And guess what, that's going to require political HD head again, and we're gonna have to make tough decisions, some will be right some of the wrongs we will learn, but that spirit of loving each other and wanting good from each other. And that's really sort of the point I want to I want to hit home, jumping off of what Schiff has said, which is I believe that the excitement and the potential within our community is from our ability to synergize between the scholars, the activists, the speakers, the community servants, the
philanthropist, the businessman, our community right now is still absolutely lacking in those strong networks. We have a lot of work to go to bring people together, joining the scholar with the businessman with the philanthropist with the activists with the skill that we all work together for a common goal and ultimately we have to remember the prophesy centum said at Best Of course, do not see how one does not see how wishing well for each other. And I will tell you, a lot of times we don't have that wishing well. We don't like somebody we're competing with them politically legally scholarly. We want to see them fall. We want to see them taken down. We want to tear them up. We
want to get our claim to fame by attacking them. It's
There's no no so yeah, there's no like, man, even if he did wrong. I'm sad he did wrong. Like, I wish he did right. Let me call him. Let me talk to him. Let me engage with them. We got to pull together. May we have those hearts that secret you are the unhealth not unity. But Unity. I'm driven by love. I mean, this Yeah, but but like one of the things I with my channel, the only things that I'm really trying to focus on going forward is I want my audience. And I'm really speaking to Muslim men here in the United States. As my I think, as I think I reflected by my primary audience. These are people that are listening to this that I want to get his message to, right. I think when it
comes to politics, in an ideal world, I think people should study the political issues, they should know, there's going to be things that resonate with them. Dr. Shetty mentioned, depending on region, there's things certain things that you might read within the sphere of acceptability, you might be right leaning or left leaning or certain things. If we have people in both camps, and understanding issues, even at the grassroots level, like locally, I think what happens is like we get caught up in the federal stuff, local elections, there's just too much noise, right there. But they're important, right? So part of it is to get educated on the basics of economics and political theory and how the
system works. Right? And you're gonna have things you as a person gravitate towards, which are gonna be left leaning and right leaning or vice versa. Right. And I think we have to be comfortable with each other. Along that sphere. Understand there's people in both camps, if we do that naturally, right. So that way and we operate but again, it goes back to what you said. The paradigm is still Islam and everything else fits under that right.
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