A Christian Ministers Conversion To Islam Dr Derks

			Hello, this is Dr. Gerald Dirks, formerly the Reverend Gerald Dirks. In just a few moments here on
the deen show, we'll be talking about my conversion to Islam. Please don't go away. This will add a
Salam aleikum, which is a greeting of peace, peace be unto you. Welcome to another episode of the
deen show where we're here trying to help you understand Islam and Muslims. And when we come back,
we have a very special guest, who was a former Christian minister. He has graduated with honors,
from the prestigious Harvard University
		

			with a master's in divinity started studying the Bible at a very young age. He has so much to share
with us today on the deen show, and I'm so excited to have him here with us. So you don't want to go
nowhere. We're going to be talking to Dr. Gerald Dirks. When we come back here on the dean show. You
don't want to go nowhere. We'll be right back. He
		

			is His Messenger.
		

			Jesus was his messenger.
		

			Why did that maybe, maybe it's just to break the ice. A salaam aleikum. Wa Alaikum. Salaam, how are
you, brother Alhamdulillah. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to come
and visit us here at the dean. So it's my pleasure, brother. We
		

			have got to mention a few things about you. You are actually a former minister, a deacon, ordained
Deacon in the United Methodist Church. And you have a master's degree in divinity from Harvard
University from Harvard Divinity School. Correct. Wow. This is a and the list goes on. You were a
preacher. at many starting at a young age you worked as a youth minister, ordained minister and the
list goes on. You've we have some books also here that you have authored. Yes. We're gonna mention
through the books here you have the Abraham the front of God, which is this book here, but it's
actually the Abrahamic faiths, the Abrahamic faiths, you have easy to understand Islam. It's another
		

			book here we have Muslims in America. The history. Yeah. And you have letters.
		

			To my elders in Islam. Yes. You have understanding Islam.
		

			You wrote written a lot of books on Islam, and the crescent and the cross, the cross in the
crescent, like the right Hmm.
		

			So these are some of your books that you've authored. You're obviously very busy writing books, you
you you are out there, trying to now mend the bridges, build the bridges, to help develop a better
understanding between Islam, the Muslims and people of other faiths. But we want to hear about your
story. We want to know, why would someone who was so high up in the ranks, who had so much knowledge
of Christianity, you know, the Bible, well, what happened? Let's talk from your will get a little
bit of a history from a young age. Talk to us. Tell us how you got involved in Christianity and your
parents and etc. Sure. Actually, there's probably four parts to the story. Yes. And the first part
		

			would be sort of my journey into the Christian ministry. Yeah. The second part would be my leaving
the ministry. Third part would be my years is what I called an A typical Christian. Yeah. And then
finally, the fourth part, my journey into Islam. But you asked about the first part, which is my
sort of journey to the Christian ministry. Yeah. I grew up in a small rural community in Kansas,
where the church was the center of community life. It was a small town of about 500 people. We had
three churches. Every summer there were ice cream, socials at the churches, chicken pot pie dinners,
cornrows, etc. And the churches really were the center of community life. And that was true for my
		

			family as well. We attended the local Methodist Church, and throughout my childhood, I was very
actively involved in collecting my perfect attendance pins from Sunday school, my awards for
memorizing biblical verses, etc. And so by the time I reached junior high school, I was already
considering the ministry as a personal calling. And about that time during the annual youth Sunday,
I was always selling
		

			elected to deliver the sermon. And word of that got around. And before long I was preaching at
various other local churches upon occasion at nursing homes at various church affiliated
organizations, etc. How old was this? I was probably about 14, when I started very young. Yeah. And
so I continued in that direction. And at age 17, I entered Harvard College as an undergraduate, with
a philosophy major, which was gearing towards seminary and continued on in that direction. In 1970,
actually 1969 I received my license to preach from the United Methodist Church, in 1971, graduated
as an undergraduate, and entered Harvard Divinity School, which is a three year program leading to a
		

			degree and Master of divinity. In 1972, I was ordained a deacon in the United Methodist Church. And
in 1974, I graduated with a master of divinity from
		

			Harvard Divinity School spent that summer as an interim minister into rural parishes in Kansas. But
in the fall of 1974, I left the ministry, or at least left the parish ministry, I was still an
ordained minister. But never again what I feel a pulpit after the fall of 1974, which probably
brings us to the second part of the story, if you want to move in that direction. Yeah. Tell us.
What will you go into that? Why did you end up I mean, you were filling the puppets? I mean, did you
have like a big crowd, people would be excited to come listen to you preach. And did you guys have a
band? How did that work to describe this, this atmosphere? Well, at the risk of sounding immodest,
		

			yeah, typically, everywhere I preach, we said attendance records, you were like, Jimmy Swaggart at
the top
		

			of your community, maybe a Joel olsteen? No, of the small little town or I don't want to do
comparisons. But yeah, suffice it to say, attendance typically skyrocketed. Oh, when when I was
behind the pulpit, so people knew who you were. Yeah, they wanted to, they wanted a ticket to get
into this.
		

			Church to see and to hear what you had to say. Because you had knowledge. You were a man of
knowledge.
		

			Amongst other things, yeah. Okay. So talk to us now from filming the pulpits. people lined up
wanting to hear what you have to say from preaching the Bible. What now led you to leave the pulpit?
Well, when people ask me,
		

			I usually say there's a long story in a short story. Yes, the short story is a good seminary
education. The long story takes a little longer. But basically, it's one of the ironies of life,
that the churches often take the
		

			most promising of their young ministers, and they send them to really good seminaries. And in those
really good seminaries such as the one I was fortunate enough to attend, you are systematically
exposed to the oldest existing texts of how the Bible actually once read, you're exposed to the
changes that were made in those texts, when those changes took place. Why those changes took place?
Where are those changes took place.
		

			So once you receive that knowledge,
		

			and those changes, by the way, raise serious, serious questions about such fundamental Christian
doctrines is the Trinity, the sonship of Jesus Christ peace be upon him,
		

			the crucifixion event, and the doctrine of atonement and the blood. All of these come into serious
question, when you look at the oldest manuscripts that we have of what the Bible once said. So that
was one consideration. The other consideration is that you are also given a very good grounding in
the history of the early church. Now this is seminary school. Yes. This is at when it when when does
now seminary school come is that that's after Harvard now? Well, first you do the undergraduate I
did four years undergraduate at Harvard, okay. received my BA Yes. And then entered Harvard Divinity
School, which is a seminary. Yes. And that's a three year course of studies leading to a master of
		

			divinity. Okay, gotcha. So the second thing you're exposed to, is the actual history of the early
Christian church. And in terms of that, you're exposed to the decidedly geopolitical machinations
		

			That really went into defining some of the fundamental doctrines and dogmas of Christianity. And
notice, I said geopolitical machinations, not theological considerations, not religious
considerations, but political considerations that went in. You're also exposed to the tremendous
breadth of knowledge, the tremendous breadth of opinion that existed within early Christianity. You
know, it was not monolithic. This is not kind of like the Christian thick. Well,
		

			suffice it to say, there were many different branches to early Christianity. Now, the branch that
survived basically into modern times, was Pauline Christianity.
		

			This was the Christianity that developed out of the teachings of Paul or Saul of Tarsus, this is
what's mainstream today? Yes, basically, yeah. But there were many other branches to early
Christianity, some of which survived for centuries, before they eventually died out. And one of the
fundamental distinctions that we can make is between Pauline Christianity, which was the
Christianity that Paul took to the Gentiles and the non Jews, principally in Europe, but also to a
certain extent in Asia Minor. And we can contrast that with what's called the Jerusalem church. Now,
this was the actual disciples of Jesus, yes. And how they practiced, and what they believe. And they
		

			were excited differences between these two groups. But over time, because of geopolitical
considerations, the different branches of Christianity was sort of systematically eliminated one by
one. And when that was done,
		

			unfortunately, that was done often at the expense of destroying
		

			books, that were once considered scripture, by some of these branches of Christianity. So a lot of
knowledge was lost in the destruction of these books. But these are the two fundamental reasons why
I left the Christian ministry, it really boiled down to an issue of personal integrity.
		

			You know, how can I stand behind the pulpit on Sunday morning, and preach a sermon that I knew was
at variance with the actual taproot of Christianity. Of course, if I stood behind the pulpit on
Sunday morning, and preached what I had been taught in seminary, I'd be looking for a new job within
a week. Yeah. So this conflict existed. And as a result, to preserve my personal integrity, I left
the active ministry and pursued graduate school in clinical psychology. And by the way,
approximately half of my graduating class from Harvard Divinity School, walked away from the parish
ministry upon graduation, so I wasn't the only one. Is this kind of like, the Have you heard of
		

			Bart? Aram? Yes, yes, kind of people also who have gotten engrossed, and really started to go deeper
into studying the original texts, and many of them they come to the conclusion that you have that,
you know, a lot of this is not making sense, doesn't Sure, sure. And, you know, the biblical scholar
you mentioned is a good example of that, but there are many others as well.
		

			Can you can you name a few that Pete some people who are out there that academics who they recognize
these people these names? Oh, well, Bart Ehrman is certainly one. But it's really almost any good
biblical scholar knows. I mean, all you have to do is pick up a good Bible Commentary. Yeah, such as
the interpreter's Bible Commentary. And begin reading it. Yeah. And you'll be exposed in the process
to wait a minute, this text originally read this way. And this was inserted into the text around the
year 380. In Spain, this sort of informations there. It's available to the public, but they have to
really go out and study in order to find it. That's the thing how many actually want to take the
		

			time to investigate instead of just blindly going along with what everyone else is going along?
Yeah, and it does take a great deal of time. Yeah, to try and do it on here. Uh huh. Tell us Did you
feel now before we move forward with the story? Did you feel before you were engrossed with all this
new knowledge that you were impervious to someone else coming in with other beliefs, views opinions?
Were you really staunch in your belief that it was unshakable before you got all this new knowledge?
Sure. I mean, I believed what I had been taught in church and Sunday school, probably just like
everyone else believes, what they're taught in church and Sunday school.
		

			And so it is it's a real shock. When all of a sudden you're confronted with a text that says
		

			You know, in these verses of the Bible, if you look at the original text, it raises real questions
as to whether or not Jesus was actually crucified. Yeah. So that's a shock. Tell us also who you
emulate. Who did you feel you we all are emulating somebody? We have role models? Who were you
before emulating? Who are you trying to? Were you trying to be like Jesus? Were you trying to be
like a certain pastor, a preacher? Well, there are certainly ministers who had an influence on me.
		

			And ministers to whom I looked up and admired.
		

			Certainly the role model of Jesus peace be upon him, as is presented in the four gospels of the
Bible as a very powerful and very positive role model. Yeah. So that was always there as well. Yeah.
Tell us now, this is very interesting. It's intriguing. I'm sure people's ears are glued to the
screen. There's one thing I just wanted to, to have you comment on, because we want this, those
sincere and honest people who are really wanting to know the truth, we want them to be able to
understand this. But there are some people who sometimes they just can't get past certain things.
And they're looking at your beard.
		

			We want them to get past the beard. Tell us about the beard for a second? Well, the beard for me is
simply following the example of Prophet Muhammad, who advised us in a Hadeeth are in us one of his
sayings, that we shouldn't trim the beard that we should let the beard grow. So without advice from
the Prophet peace be upon him. I let my beard grow. did Jesus have a beard? Well, we assume so. did
Moses have a beard? Well, we assume so beards, beards were fashion. At that time at that part of the
world. Yeah, fashion has changed for people, but for what God has ordained through his messengers,
as the teachers, they were the ones that we should be emulating, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. That is what
		

			remains stable. So this is just a pious example of somebody trying to emulate the best of human
beings these prophets. Yes. Would you say okay, so I hope that one person or two they got past the
beer. Now tell us?
		

			Did you believe earnestly with full conviction that the Bible was the word of God Almighty, before
again, you got engrossed in all this new knowledge?
		

			Well, I think we have to define what's meant by the word of God, because there's two main beliefs
that run throughout Christianity. If you look at different Christians, there's one group of
Christians primarily those who call themselves fundamentalists are the far wing of the Christian,
right? Who believe that the Bible is word for word, the literal words of God.
		

			But there's a second group of Christians, typically you find them amongst mainline Protestants and
Roman Catholics, etc. who say, well, the Bible was inspired by God. But it was funneled through
human beings. And so their personal historical context, etc. We have to take that into account. But
the basic message the inspiration is from God, even though we can't take things literally word for
word. So you believe this? Yes. Okay. And now, did your obviously belief change? Once you finish
seminary school? Absolutely. What did you think then? Well, again, when you're when you're
confronted with the variances and what the original text said, and what the Bible says, Now, as you
		

			read it,
		

			as I said before, that that's a shocking experience. And it causes one to question. You know, what
else is here? That has been changed? Where I don't have the original text is more. So I don't know
that this change has taken place. Yeah, you know, it's, we know what we know. But how many other
places there may have been changes? We don't know. Now that you lose a lot, now we're going to get
into it. And again, people want to know the big question, why did you accept Islam? Why did you come
to be a Muslim? We're gonna get to that. We just want to lead to that. Did you ever get people who
came to you with a confused look on your face, about this Trinity? wanting to know a little more?
		

			adamantly? How they could make this fit God being obviously Three in One is that correct? Father,
Son, and the goals but not three. But one is somebody who just came to you as a pastor. Did they
call you? What What was the tie? They call you, Pastor? Turner, wherever. Pastor Dirks, can you
please explain to me I can't figure this out. Who do I pray to that pray to the Father, the Son, the
Holy Ghost. Did you have these experiences? Not that often. And the reason for that again, is, you
know, people are taught in Sunday.
		

			builder taught in church from a very early age. You know, God is three persons in one substance.
That's the traditional Protestant and Roman Catholic formulation of the Trinity. Some of the Eastern
churches say, three substances in one essence, yes. But this becomes a catchphrase three persons in
one substance. You don't think about it, you don't question it is just sort of an automatic
response. If you're asked about the Trinity, you say, oh, three persons in one substance, three
persons being the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
		

			And so people tend to accept this because it was ingrained at a very early age, they tend not to
question it, or say, no, wait a minute, exactly. What does that mean?
		

			And when people do those few who do, typically they find that they can't make any sense out of it.
		

			In fact, Athanasius, who was in many ways, the father of the doctrine of the Trinity, is reported to
have said, very late in life as he was dying, that the more he thought about the notion of the
Trinity, the less sense it made to it.
		

			So this is a very confusing issue, and I think most Christians typically avoided Yes, I've just fall
back on that early learning of saying three persons in one substance. And if there's any questioning
that goes beyond that, the response as well, that's one of the Divine mysteries. What about the age
show the yoke, or the water? And it being three components? One part? Have you gotten this? Oh, the
sort of thing about compare the Trinity to
		

			HTML, which have the steam, water or ice? Yeah, I've gotten that. The interesting thing is, that's
actually officially a heresy in traditional Christian thought.
		

			Because you're denying the three persons.
		

			Yeah, most Christians who try to grapple their way to some understanding of the Trinity that goes
beyond simply saying, three persons in one substance, without realizing it often drift off into what
the church has already condemned as heresy in terms of their understanding of the Trinity. Yeah.
Wow, that's amazing. We are almost out of time for this session, we're going to have to do a part
two, let's get a few more questions in again, we're excited. And we want to know like what led up to
finally accepting Islam, but we want to dig a little more to find out some of the things that unique
experiences that you did you had did you use to sing? No, no. I see a lot of singing going on a
		

			terrible sense of pitch. Okay. Now tell us.
		

			What did you believe now? You found these things. You went from believing that this the Bible, which
you were brought up, reading, studying learning was the word of God? Correct? And now you go through
this now, what did you believe that you believe that there was still some of the Word of God in it?
And it was? man's
		

			adding deleting? Yeah, certainly, certainly, I believe there. There was divine inspiration in the
Bible in places. Yeah. I also realized that there were corruptions of the Bible and ISIS, I believe
very strongly, that there was God. Yes, and only one God.
		

			But I had no belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. I had no belief in the
doctrine of the Trinity. I had serious questions about the crucifixion event. So I was basically
from the time I left the act of ministry in 1974, until I became a Muslim many years later, what I
call an A typical Christian. What's a typical question? Well, for me, a typical Christian is someone
who doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, who rejects the notion of the Trinity, but still
maintains a deep and abiding belief in God. And who still, you know, picks up the Bible reads it for
the good moral instruction that is found in it in many places,
		

			and continues to study. The Bible continues, for example, for me, going down to the local seminary
and haunting the bookstore and purchasing new books on recent archaeological finds having to do with
various texts of the Bible, etc. Did you find yourself getting in some dialogue for the people who
believe staunchly that No, no, Jesus is God, that He is the Son of God also, and that he died for
your sins, since obviously, now you didn't. You had an ethicist of this, you believe something
opposite to it? Did you have some conflict here with other peers or members of your congregation or
friends or? Well, no, no real conflict, and in fact, I didn't attend church very much at all. This
		

			is later on now that you know, once I left the ministry, you know a few times a year that would be
it, primarily because they thought it was an employee.
		

			And family function to do.
		

			But typically I would go, I would listen to a sermon, I would grit my teeth as I heard things I knew
were not true. Give us an example giving us an example. Well,
		

			the Trinity Yes, for example, or the divinity of Jesus peace be upon him. Or some of the statements
that were made about the crucifixion or the doctrine of the atonement in the blood. You're sitting
there just like, how can they preach this? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is amazing. Well, what it is
a lot of ministers Yeah. rationalize. Uh huh. And they say, I know what I mean, when I say the Son
of God. Uh huh. And I understand it this way and sort of the metaphorical way. Or I understand it,
as I believe the actual disciples understood that term, or is it was understood in first century
Palestine.
		

			However, the congregation probably doesn't understand it that way. When that phrases? Did you feel
like this also went against your very nature, this inherent nature that God put in all of us to
recognize the truth? Did you feel that something inside you said no? Sure. Yeah. And do you feel
like a lot of people that they that, you know, you said, a typical Christian I've come across and
these are our brothers in, in humanity, yes. And we are to be the kindness to them. And we are to
share this way of life that we believe that all the messengers of God, they lived, which was
surrender, and submission, obedience, sincerity, and in peace, which is sort of one word Islam, to
		

			share with them. We don't have to proselytize and you know, tried to twist their arm to accept it,
but if they want to a it's there for you sure. It's a way of life that God has ordained for
everybody take it. If not, you can least understand us. And we can be brothers working together for
some kind of good Now tell us before we got like two minutes, and we're gonna have to do a part two,
this is so exciting. Tell us now.
		

			Did you
		

			feel that you now because a lot of these people you said a typical, I'll come across people like I
was saying that they are Christian, but they don't believe Jesus is God. Other people believe that
his son of God, not God, there's some confusion here. Did you at any time feel like you know what?
		

			Confused now lost? What do I do? Where do I go from here? I think there are a lot of a typical
Christians out there actually.
		

			Probably more among the ordained clergy than among the laity. Because the ordained clergy has been
exposed typically, yeah, to at least some of this information. In fact, there was a study done by
Psychology Today magazine back in the early 1970s,
		

			where they listed what they considered to be 10 fundamental beliefs of Christianity. And they went
out and surveyed the Christian laity and found that on the average Christian lady believed in about
seven I think it was of these 10. Yeah. When they surveyed the ordained ministry, they found they
believed in about four of the 10. Yeah, so you can see the discrepancy. This is not odd, isn't it
that I don't know, maybe in the 70s or 80s, that the Anglican bishops, they had come to a unanimous
decision that you didn't to be a Christian, you didn't have to believe that Jesus was God also.
Well, I'm not going to speak for the Anglican bishops. Yeah, this is something that I came across.
		

			So it's not something odd that people they also go with what's in their nature, and they reject this
belief that a man can be God, that Jesus was God, etc. Yeah, that's true of a lot of people who I
would say are a typical Christian. Yeah, we are out of time. We will inshallah shall continue next
week doing part two, because we didn't answer how you double how you accepted submission and
surrender to the one God, nothing in creation, but to the Creator who made the sun the moon who
created Jesus who Jesus prayed to he didn't eat. Yes. Okay. We could do the part two, and yes,
inshallah, I'm excited. And I'm sure you're excited also. Thank you, Chuck. Hello. Hi to my brother,
		

			and discipline. Hi, thank you so much for being with us. I know you're excited. But you know what,
we got to take a timeout. We've come and run out of time, but next week, we're going to continue on,
and we're going to answer this question. Why Islam? You got to hear a little bit about the past.
Well, Dr. Dirks
		

			going through Harvard University, going to the seminary and being on the pulpit, filling the crowds
with preaching the Bible, but now he's a Muslim and you want to know why. And we're going to bring
you his story inshallah. God willing. Thank you. We'll see you next week. Here on the deen show.
Until then, I Salaam Alaikum. Peace be unto you
		

			Shay banyuwangi
		

			Bismillah
		

			So bad
		

			deeds comb deeds lay everybody sleep in
		

			and ask a lot of thinking me. Oh la You see? Oh la you know all these things I do a turn to you to
pick him
		

			up
		

			today Yo man
		

			runs away
		

			guide me