Shadee Elmasry – S4 E2 Sunna Rejectors, Quran Only, & The Bizarre Cult of 19
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So the background is versus that I have known since 1980. That not on
God's Messenger in the sense that not in a general sense in the
sense that Abraham was the original messenger of Islam he
brought all the practices.
The the mass, the fasting
cat charity, program is
the first the first commandment play like Illa.
And Muhammad brought the Quran
and the time, the theater but of a triangle. That is not the proof of
the proof of authenticity of religion. I didn't know that.
I have God's messenger that that sense until
1980 1980 was corresponding to their 1400
Islam year.
God has been gracious to us in that he's been showing us what the
correct Islam is.
The Mohammedans throughout the world and 100 million of them are
doing wrong.
You mentioned Muhammad Ali Mohammed Ibrahim Ali Ibrahim in
the Salah. We don't know for sure but this is wrong.
The Quran came out of Muhammad mouth
says you should never mention any other name
during the salah. Besides under the name of God, that this Allah
must be devoted to God alone. No one else so they did this a lot.
They did this a cat wrong.
They are doing it wrong.
And now we have it correct it
turns out as it is now done going from it is the most important part
of hatch even though it has no part to hatch at all. So
I'm going to Medina is like an idol worship.
We go to the Prophet store to Fatima Stokes on
the trading floor.
Nothing
in the Quran, because the devil doesn't say we were worshiping
nothing.
Smilla Rahmanir Rahim Al hamdu lillah wa Salatu was Salam ala
Rasulillah who Allah. He was Samuel Manuela like to welcome
everyone to our second episode, season four episode two. Now we
don't have more in NAS and Alex or sad today. All of them are away.
Alex is away. Maureen and NAS couldn't make it but we do have.
Hamza Q.
Fresh out of law school. Right. Still in still in law school year
three, year three, just starting. Well, your three is a formality
anyway, right. Kind of.
And we have Jake got brother Jake, What's your last name? Brian
Catella. Who Brancatelli Okay, so Jake from Little Italy.
Jake is our guest today Jake is from he's from the area. Okay.
He's someone we just met. And he just, he has an interesting story.
And we also have Dr. Harrison mean world renowned eye surgeon if you
need an eye surgeon, I mean, that's where you're gonna go.
Everyone knows that.
But we're going to start today on a topic that is really all about
Jake's pasts, maybe decade I would say and that is that. You used to
be part of the Sunnah rejecters I call him Sunnery doctors, they
call themselves Quran only right? These folks, you became Muslim and
join that group. Right? Right. Okay, so tell me exactly. You come
into Islam? How would how does that fringe group get onto your
radar? Well, basically, I had a friend in high school who
introduced me to Islam. And I just started reading the Quran by
myself. And long story short, I accepted that it was true, you
know, I have a Catholic background. But I accepted the
Quran is true. But mainly based on its theology and Tawheed. And
after that, I started having discussions with this friend, and
he would say things to me all the time, like regarding the deen and
say, Oh, well, this is what a law says in the Quran and different
things. And he would say things, man, I'm like, Well, dude, that's,
that's not in the Quran. So I don't know what you're talking
about. And, you know,
not to bash him, but he wasn't that knowledgeable. So the things
that he was saying, he wasn't properly differentiating between
what was found in the Koran and what was found in the Hadith. So
because of that, it confused me. And I didn't even know what Hadith
was. So then eventually, he got around to telling me about, well,
we have this other thing called Hadith. And I said, Well, what's
that because I don't know anything.
got that from the Quran. And so he started explaining it. And it
didn't make sense to me at the time
being a person who didn't know that much, and just reading the
Quran by myself, and so I started looking up online. Well, are there
other people out there that believe like I do that only
believe in the Quran that don't believe in this hadith stuff? So I
found Rashad Khalifa. If you've heard of him, let's give a little
blurb about the once you give a little blurb about the guy, Misha
Khalifa. Yeah, um, from what I know, he was from Egypt. He's
Egyptian, I think he was a chemist. And he supposedly came
upon this miracle in the Quran, the miracle of 19, which I also
used to believe in, I don't anymore. And it's kind of a colt
about like, everything is 19 in the Quran, and all this and that.
And I read a short book on him called Quran, Hadith and Islam.
And it basically explained why we don't need Hadith, why we should
only be following the Quran, and all these kinds of things. And he
had he had a group called the submitters that were based in
Arizona. And eventually he was actually from what I understand he
was assassinated
by I don't know who but Jamaat UL fuqra. Right. Got him. Yeah.
Because I think they put a, you know, a fatwa against him. Yeah.
And,
and one of the one of the other brothers that was with him, was a
fella by the name of ew Axel, who actually actually met personally,
and he interviewed interviewed me on his YouTube channel. And
earlier this year, actually. And then, when he passed when Rashad
passed away, he kind of took over. And but he broke away from the
submitters, and now there's a bunch of people that follow him.
And he's still promoting this 19 stuff on YouTube, and on and on,
and all that kind of stuff. But that's the gist of it. So his
theory of 19 every suit has got a number 19
somehow connected to it. But it collapses at the end, though.
Right? His theory collapse at the end. Lotro? Uh, yeah, well,
there's different reasons why I don't accept it. I did originally.
I did originally, but now I reject it, because I'm not a
mathematician. But if you know anything about a mathematical
theory, you have to have a certain amount of possible outcomes,
right? That we could say, well, the maths, let's take 19 for
example, what are the possible applications for the number 19? In
the Quran? None of these people can answer that. Yeah, in order to
for us to determine if the probability is high enough for it
not to be
just some lucky chance of 19 always coming out, we have to know
what the numerator and denominator are to find out what the
percentage is. And they don't have this. So in my opinion, the theory
can't even get off the ground because you can't evaluate it.
There's no set standard as to what sort of things are applicable to
19. And what aren't. For example, they use the Bismillah. They think
that it has 19 letters in it. The number of sores in the Quran, 114
divided by 19. It comes out to a whole number, all these different
things, but what actually is 19 supposed to be applied to does it
apply to every single letter? Is it certain words, you know,
because even Rashad thinks that his name Rashad is in the Quran,
and it's a multiple of 19 all these kinds of things. So it's
just numerology and there's no set system as to how we can determine
whether or not it applies. Yeah, so there's number one, there's no
one set equation either. So investment, Amanda Rahim is just
doing one plus one plus he's counting letters, whereas the
sutras it's a factor of 19. Right. So that's a whole different
mathematical operation. So it's any I mean, I would think any
Surah with enough words, you can find some equation to do with it,
right? Like the number of verses could be divisible by 19. The
number of words could be divisible by 19. Right? Right. Whatever but
so it's he's you it seems like it's all different random
mathematical functions connected to 19. That's why I broke down at
the left small sodas right because not enough words, right? And even
like the word Allah in the Quran, he says it's a multiple of 19. But
in order for if you can actually count the number of times that
Allah's name is mentioned in the Quran, and
In order for it to work as a multiple of 19, they had to deny
two verses in the code on at the end of chapter nine. I think it's
verse 128 and 29, to balance it out now, and in order to make it a
multiple of 19. But even even if we granted that and said, Okay,
well, Allah's name is mentioned the multiple of 19 in the Quran,
what about his other attributes? They use, for example, ew, so has
a whole book on it about certain attributes that have multiple 19.
But why some and not others? What is the what is the
system that we're basing this on? Why are we counting some letters,
like even the, the letters like Alif Lam Meem, at the beginning of
a surah, right, they say that there's some connection with that
to the multiples of like, the Allofs in that surah the lambs and
they count them, there's no, there's no set framework to really
judge what's what's being asserted. Secondly, out of three
critiques, that's the first critique that you're using all
sorts of different types of equations, right? Number two,
Let's hypothetically say, for argument's sake, that we did find
that the number 19 was found in some mathematical formula in every
surah. Alright, so what is the value of 19? Like, what's the
actual substantive connection to the number to some meaning, like,
what is actually what is the meaning of it? Right? Well, they
would claim that it's a miracle because it's a prime number. So
it, it has less of a chance of fitting into, you know, the
multiples and stuff like that. But other than that, I don't think
okay, so I mean, so. So you, you would tell someone that your basis
of your belief is that the book has mathematical equations
connected to a prime number, right? And actually, it's a
stretch. Actually, they go so far, some of them have saying like, aw,
so he's from Turkey, and he's actually for his beliefs. He's
been banned from Turkey. They put a fatwa against him too. He's
they've gone bandhan I don't know who because I don't know how long
ago it was. But
people have attempted to kill them before and all everything just
like they did to Rashad Khalifa. But
anyway, with him, he goes so far as saying that, even if you accept
his principle of Quran alone, and all that kind of stuff, rejecting
Hadith, if you reject this 19 principle, you're a Kaffir Oh,
really, you're you're going to * and what's his basis for
that?
At the comedy level, he write he uses a some set of verses in
chapter 74. I don't know if I can pull it up real quick because I
don't have it off the top of my head. 74 is what death is. Yeah,
right. Yeah, so it says it says it leaves not in spares not it
scorches the mortal over it over it or 19 Yeah, now typically, the
correct me if I'm wrong, a traditional understanding is is
talking about the 19 Guardians of Hellfire is correct. He
understands that to mean that 19 gordianus Quran right and the next
verse says, And we made it non but angels Wardens of the fire, and we
have not made their number but as a trial of fitna, for those who
disbelieve which he actually fell into the fifth, right but but he's
using that to say, this is a fitna This is a trial you don't accept
this nine to your you're going you're a Kaffir you're gonna help
you disbelieve, right this belief. So he believes number 19 is
Guardian over the Quran, right exam? What is it? Is it a living
thing?
Is a number 19 alive? No, I just in the mathematical sense. So a
nonliving thing is guarding the board of Allah. Right? So and the
verse goes on further to say that those who have been given the book
may be certain, and those who who believe may increase in faith, and
those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt
and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the disbelievers may
say, What does Allah mean by this parable, meaning the number that's
what he's assuming? Thus, Allah leaves an error whom He pleases
and guides when he pleases, and it goes on. But the point is he
saying that this number, Allah us is giving you the idea that it's
going to increase the believers in faith. And it's going to
differentiate between the believers and non believers. So
what he would come back and say to the traditional Sunni, would be,
well, how is a number of angels 19 over Hellfire going to do that? So
he would say that that doesn't make any sense. And he thinks that
it applies to this principle of 19 garden, the Quran, well, that'd be
in a miracle, and that would make more sense of the verse. So
This is what you came across right away when you became Muslim.
Right, right, originally from Rashad and from the internet,
right, which is really a justification justifies people.
You know, young scholars and Imams and folk Aha, basically need to
flood the internet with actual truth and sensible talk. Because
if people are going to come across this, then we need to decrease the
percentage chance that they're going to come across nonsense like
this and waste like a decade of their life on a ridiculous theory
that has no basis, right.
Well, not only that,
the there have been traditional Sunnis who have now adopted this
modern modern scholars. I don't know if you want me to mention any
names, if they're public about it. Yeah, they have been.
I mean, Achmed de that even published a book about it that was
basically from Rashad Khalifa. And all about the number 19. Should be
your ollie promotes it. Number 19. Yes. Okay. Tell me what exactly is
the lived experience? Like how does this apply to daily life?
Number 19. Yeah. Well, I have to be honest, when I it's like a
colt, when I was when I was heavy into it. If I put a slice of pizza
in the microwave, I put it on 19 If I hadn't, if I superstition
Right, exactly, that's what I'm saying. Obviously, it was it was
ridiculous. You know, if I'm watching TV, I'm putting the
volume, the number 19 These kind of crazy. I'm not saying that
they're doing that. But this is what I was doing.
They're not taking it to that level. But for example, like ew
Axel and even Shabbir Ali, he's got videos on YouTube about it,
people can go watch it on his channel where he's promoting this.
And he uses it as a proof that the Quran is from God, you know, just
like EWTN was doing not necessarily from that verse, But
he gives certain general principles about 19, how many
sorrows there are all these different kinds of things? And he
promotes it and he originally got it from for Sun shot. Yeah, Rashad
Khalifa question, has this 19 thing been something? Throughout
history? Is this new? Because I've never heard this before. I never
seen it in traditional scholarship. Nor did I see any of
the numerology that modern folks have come up with some of which is
nice, like, okay, the exact number of time Yom is used? 365. Okay,
it's nice, right? It's definitely you're going to know that it's
possible for Allah to do something like this, to show that the
messenger would not have had time for something like this, right?
And no, Sahabi recognized it. And the Prophet didn't go tell the
people that. So it's, it's something, it's something that I
would actually remember when we studied Sciences of the Quran,
that I put it at the last page as just like a nice thing. There's no
added commentary to it. But where the number 19 goes off, being that
miracle, okay, so everything factors to 19 Somehow, I still
don't get how this is a big deal, let alone how does it affect your
life? Right? So what they would say like even Ew, close books that
he has about this thing he mentioned, like what you mentioned
about the not the number of times that days is mentioned in the
Quran, or in the singular form is mentioned 365 times.
And then basically, the extension of that is 19. To say, like, these
things are cool, like you're saying the little little things
that,
you know, might be good for us to know. But 19 is on a higher level.
So it's basically exponentially greater than these, the number of
times days it was mentioned and etc. But you can send someone say,
in 60 seconds, Yome day 365 times, I think Laila same thing, right?
Then shot a month, 12 times, right? A yam days, I think, seven,
seven times or 30 times, right. So it's either week or month,
something like that.
Then like water and, and land at the proportion of land and sea. So
I could roll it off my tongue in 60 seconds, or in half a page of a
book. Meaning that it's that simple. All right, but 19 Sounds
like it requires like a 400 page thesis. Right? So it's not that
simple. And a miracle needs to be simple. Alright, Moses, split the
Red Sea simple. It's not something you know, convoluted. So this 19
to prove your Amen. No one needs to sit there reading a book, or
like, give me the simple 62nd version. Right, exactly. And he
and Ew, so has a whole like you said about a 400 page book that I
read the whole thing on it. Yeah, on 19 trying to prove that 19 is
true. From my from my experience when you need to write that much.
Your argument is flawed, right? You know, Maddock has a thing has
a statement where he says it
A Sahil Java kala Kala, which means, if the answer is right, the
speech is little, right. So if you have something great to say it
wouldn't need that much so we're going to need to read that it's
bigger than the Quran. I wouldn't read the whole Quran Right? and
gotten more out of it then his theory about the Quran, right?
Okay, so all that was a little tangent. Actually, we started off
with a tangent because the first thing that you you came into was
this was this crazy theory. Now we need to get into how you got into
put on only but first we're going to pause for a minute and we'll be
right back.
All right. We're back from Sonata Maghrib. Now, we actually started
off with the one subject but we ended up taking a little detour
into something in Muslim American history me and Sam Academy, love
to like document all these little things in most American history,
because you know, people like to have a history. So we're talking
Arizona, 1980s Egyptian immigrant comes now it's not just that the
number 19 got him killed. It's like I mentioned when we were
making before salah, I could have sworn he claimed to be a prophet.
Right? And you said no, he he's actually claimed something bigger
than that. Right? He claimed to be a messenger, okay? That specific
verses in the Quran replied to him. So like, you know how
sometimes in English translation, it'll say, oh, Muhammad peace be
upon him. Like, in that it's referring him. He has overshot.
Like he thinks it's talking to him to him. Yeah. So at this point,
we're talking about insanity. Pretty much. Yeah. Because if
you're at that level, right, that even the idea of bringing a theory
that your peers would just laugh you out of the room, and you're
serious about it that itself? would most people would say that
you're insane, right, definitely. So let alone claiming prophecy.
Now. How did he maintain a followership this I mean, quite
Ianis claim prophecy, not messenger ship? Right, right. He's
claiming messenger ship. So what did his followers do? They
followed along, and what was his new law that he came with? No, he
wasn't claiming, as far as I know, to come with any new law, but he
was claiming to unveil this miracle of 19. That could, as we
talked about a little bit before we came live, that could only be
discovered with the advent of computers. So but yeah, so that in
1974, supposedly, when this was recognized, it had to be done by a
computer. And so he, he thinks that it's directly related to him,
and that's the prophecy. So there's a Pakistani Sheikh, who is
a self soothe as sort of a self
taught chef, but he's apparently has a lot of cut on that. His name
is Mubarak Ali Shah Jelani. He came in he got a following of
converts in New York City, and they're the ones who actually put
out the hit on this guy. They're the ones who killed him. It's
called Jamal FOCA. And they were known for being very
isolationists. So they live in like little towns like Islam Ville
and those things.
And they are, they sort of say to themselves in the beginning, they
were a little bit violent. So that's why when, what was his
name, Pearl, Adam Pearl, I'm not sure. From Wall Street Journal,
the journalist who was kidnapped Pearl Daniel Pearl, when Daniel
Pearl, the Wall Street journalist was kidnapped and killed. They
first thought it was him because Daniel Pearl was going to
interview Mubarak collishaw Jelani, right, and ask him about
some of the violent things that were happening in his group. So
that's where Daniel Pearl wants to interview. Okay, because Daniel
was the Jelani group or a Jamaat UL fuqra. They were involved in
some violent stuff like that. Now, you also too, so I didn't know
that there are a lot of 19 As you said, these 19 are going to come
after us now. And I thought I had run out of people to go up against
but it's so these people actually still exist. Oh, yeah, there's a
lot of nine teeners especially on Facebook, like different Facebook
groups. If you search it.
The submitters actually still have their own website, not to try to
give them a plug or anything. But what is their website abuso. Also,
who's the main heat now basically, the baton was passed from Rashad
khalifa to eat abuso. And his website is called nineteen.org. So
even though, you know, you would think that being a proponent of
the so called Khurana loan movement, your website would have
something to do with that, but he's more fixed even more so on
this 19 stuff. And it's just parent his website is permeated
with that. So you could go to nineteen.org and check it out.
What is the submitters website
on
I don't know off the top of my head, but that's just too juicy.
Yeah, that's it. Yep. So are you telling me that Sona rejecters in
America will tend to be tied to the hip to the 19? Theory? Not
necessarily. There's, I would say a large portion of them, I would
say maybe about 50%
Are into 19. And, but a lot of a lot of Quran alone, people aren't.
Okay. Now, I tend not to really worry or give much credence to any
organization or group that has an unacceptable theory, right. I
mean, the premise is, there's no action based on the premise.
That's number one, right? Number two, you want to show me
something? What's this
Rashad Khalifa son is a shortstop for the Pittsburgh Pirates. I
mean, this cannot get any weirder. Oh, his batting average to 19.
Oh, prophecy, I'm telling you this stuff cannot get any weirder. I
honestly didn't even know that. Sam Khalifa born December 5 96.
Three is an American former professional baseball player in
infielder he played for the Pittsburgh Pirates from 1985 to
1987. He recently retired from baseball when his father, Rashad
Khalifa was murdered in 1990. I mean, how many I suppose we were
supposed to start counting how many letters in Pittsburgh
Pirates? Let's see if it's divisible by 19. But that is the
weird this is such a weird piece of history. Yeah, he probably is
only Muslim baseball. I mean, if you if he unless he followed his
father, then what?
So tell us now, these 19 are like, where's the application? I'm not
worried about this group. There's no application. You're not
gathering people. You're not raising kids on this stuff. So
this stuff, I think it fizzles out like lone wolf type of people will
read it be convinced for a couple years. And hopefully the bulk of
them when they need to get married and interact with real human
beings will wake up one day, that's my opinion on right in sha
Allah. But like we said before, there are some pretty big names,
even Sunni scholars promoting this kind of stuff. I mean, obviously,
not a lot, the majority think it's nonsense. But just to be aware
that so I mean, we have to even watch out for these people and
that when they're promoting it, expose that this is just nonsense
that and Allah is not going to bring something from the shape of
his book, A through the hands of some fraud. He's gonna say he's a
messenger, right example is that anything that comes from them? I'm
gonna reject it and lock stock and barrel exact right? And if there
had any truth to it, then I could discover it on my own. Right so
that I never have to credit a fraud. Right. Let's jump. Do you
want to add any last thing before we move on from from 19? No,
that's enough. Okay.
All right.
Let's now move to how you went from maintainers to Quran only.
And, and, and I'm asking specifically, what were the
websites for example, that that got onto your radar because if
they got onto your radar, they're probably getting on other people's
radar. So I was actually wondering more about the practical
trajectory of how you got into this idea. Okay, so although
Rashad was promoting 19, he was also promoting the Koran alone
stuff. So like I said, the first book that I read on the topic was
a little booklet called Quran, Hadith and Islam. And
I vaguely I don't remember exactly what was in it might have had some
19 stuff in it, but for the most part, it was promoting the idea of
Quran alone. He was citing verses in the Quran that supposedly
supported this opinion, and all this kind of stuff. And so that's
really what first i as far as actual material that I first read
on it. And then once I realized, well, this guy's dead. I need some
kind of other person who's still producing stuff to read. I found
eat abuso who has a number of different books out some on 19
Some on the cron only stuff. And so I started reading his material.
And yeah, so that that's kind of how it went. So EDP Axel is
considered one of the big Sona rejected Khurana on the types. Oh,
yeah. Big big. Yeah, he's he's banned from Turkey because of it.
He actually appeared on the Turkish television television show
and he was like debating a Sunday. And the guy just walked off the
stage. He was just like, yeah, you can still I think it's on YouTube.
You can still pull it up. But yeah, he's definitely
Really, especially in America, he's, I would say, one of the top
three biggest proponents of this idea or the other two.
Well, another one is a guy that I was very close with name Hamza
Abdul Malik, and
his videos on YouTube too. And he's a very well known proponent
of this, he was a Sunni for about 40 years. And he was even known in
the Sunni community for debating Christians. And he was actually
taught in Medina at school in South Africa. He was basically
Ahmed de that's representative in the US for debating Christians at
the time that this was going on. And later on, he discovered,
according to him that
the Hadith stuff was nonsense, and so that we only need to follow the
Quran. And he's been that way for, I don't know, maybe the past 15
years or so. And so he's another big proponent of this idea.
Then you got a guide by the name of Sam Gerrans, who just I think
that's the guy. He's originally from England. Yeah. And I think he
moved. I don't know where he's living now. But he's got some
crazy ideas as well. Like he's, he's all into conspiracy theories
and all this kind of stuff.
Who else? I think those are the main guys. Okay. Now in terms of
the these guys work mainly, it's, it's on YouTube. Yes. Mainly, it's
on YouTube. But ewe also has a lot of publications. He has a whole
book on 19. And he's got other books in related Islamic subjects.
Okay. And he's got his that he has his own translation of the Quran
actually. All right, so young listeners out there, like, first
time hearing about this group, give me the top two or three
arguments that they're going to throw out some because a lot of
people know about this, and it doesn't like Moin made a good
point that we don't we know that we need to refute it. Everyone
knows our position on this and you can easily find refutations of
this. But just a quick, like soundbite version of what would
their main arguments v? And then what would a quick
refutation that will completely that they don't have any answer to
be so that people could have some idea of what they will be getting
into if they saw someone who was a coronal knee? Right. So for the
people who aren't so familiar with it, basically, their view is that
the code on alone is sufficient for all matters of the deen, terms
of guidance and all related subjects.
That it's complete, perfect, fully detailed, and the like.
So one of the verses that they'll use and that I've used in the past
is in chapter six, verse 114. And it says, Shall I seek a judge
other than a law when it when He it is Who has sent down to you the
book fully explained, and those whom we have given the Book know
that it is revealed by the Lord with truth? So Be not thou have
the dispute letters? So the gist of it is basically, that a lot of
saying in this verse, what was sent down to the messenger was the
book. That's the only thing that was sent down to him, and that
this book is Mufasa. It's fully detailed. Right. So the idea is
that the presupposition behind it is to say that the Sunni
understanding assumes that the Quran is not fully detailed,
provide some of the details but other details that are necessary
to practice the deen are found in Hadith books, right? So they say,
Well, this directly contradicts what a law saying in this verse
because he says it's fully detailed and your view amount. So
basically calling the law a liar, because you're saying it's not
fully detailed. So you know, that's, that's a verse that they
would typically use for that. Then also in chapter 45, or six,
there's a verse that says, In what Hadith after a law and His Ayat
Will you trust, and they say that if you trust because the Quran is
mentioned as a hadith in chapter 39, verse 23, it's mentioned as
the best Hadith actually.
Which Sunnis accept. But so they say, this is the Hadith and 45 Six
says, You can't trust in any Hadith after a law in his is which
we know the Quran is i So, based on this principle is that we
reject any Hadith besides the Quran
and then you have
I'll just give one more verse about in terms of guidance in
chapter 10 Verse 35, and just scroll through it real quick.
Hamza, you dealt with these types of people before. I have actually
not met anyone who has who's very detail about it. Most people are
kind of, it's just a matter of argumentation. It's like just to
just to fulfill some desire other. Yeah, they're like, oh, show me
where it says it's not. Right. It's like, oh, I don't care.
What's this hadith. And they'll mostly be like all the Hadith like
the Orientals, argument zero compile two years after a small
sieve, where, like you said, just people wanting to do what they
justify if some Shaohua Yeah, right. Okay, so So in this last
verse, it says, say, is there any of your associate gods who God
said the truth, say, a law guide said the truth? Is he who then who
guides to the truth, more worthy to be followed? Or He who finds
not the way unless he is guided? What is the matter with you? How
do you judge? So it's comparing
the person who, basically in the parable, who's following the law,
versus following anybody else who had to be guided? Now the question
is, that the messenger peace be upon them have to be guided? Well,
they use verses, like why would you ever could darlin, for
Heather, then we found you astray. And we guide at you, or other
verses, like you didn't know what the book or faith was, you say? So
he had to be guided. So by that principle, the same who's more
worthy to be followed the messenger or law? And the obvious
answer, according to them, is a law. So that's another proof that
they would use that in terms of guidance, their own, the only
source that they're going to accept is a law himself. You say?
Question, where do they think that the Quran came to them from it was
transmitted by human beings over centuries, right or wrong? Yes,
they're accepting. Yeah. So the basic understanding, obviously, is
the same as the traditional understanding that it was from a
law to Angel Jabril to the Prophet peace be upon him, and then to the
comparison emanated to, you know, the immediate community, why would
they trust that transmission?
That's a good question. How do we I guess the question comes, how do
we know that the Quran that we have today is what was actually
revealed to the Prophet? Because if they trust that transmission,
those transmitters also transmitted Hadith, right, I think
what they would say is, for example, in chapter 15, verse
nine, a law says that he's going to protect this Quran that he's
the protector of the Quran, but nowhere does it say that he's
going to protect, protect the Sunnah, or Hadith or anything else
like that. So I think they would say, even if these peat were the
same people who transmitted a hadith, a lot and vouch for that
material, but they're the ones who transmitted that first. Yeah,
right. So if they're saying that there, they used Hadith, and they
were basically misguided, but they the ones who gave you that verse,
so they're furnishing you your evidence? Right? Right, which you
then use to discredit the need for their transmission. Right. So it's
circular, right? Are they doubting the veracity of the transmissions?
Or are they doubting the value of the transmission of the Hadith
versus the Quran? Okay, good. So that's a good point. Because what
basically what you mentioned before,
at least to folks that you came in contact, or kind of just come in
with a simpleton argument of saying, we don't really trust the
transmissions, Bihari compiled this 200 years after the Prophet
and so on.
And there are a lot of Quran alone people who have that mentality,
but at least the group that I was a part of, and the more
intellectual ones if we could use that would give these kinds of
verses in the Quran that I'm using to say that even if these
transmissions were accurate, they're not to be followed,
because the Quran itself rejects any other source besides itself
for Muslims to be following. So so but as a secondary issue, they
will challenge the transmission of, of the Hadith. So if they were
standing face to face with the professor, and he said, x, would
they reject that? Yeah, so that's a good point. I think, if they
held true to their principles, they would have to they would have
to ask, well, is this quote on? And if he, if he said, No, then
they would, they would have to just be like, we're not interested
in that whatever else it is, what about what about the Quran saying
you have to obey the Prophet obey Allah and His Messenger, right so
they would understand obey Allah and obey the messenger ad
As obey the messenger means obey the message. And what was the
message that he was giving was only the Quran. And they use some
verses to distinguish between his role as a messenger and what his
role was as a prophet and a regular man. And basically, the
proof for that is that any time that the prophet is chided in the
Quran for making some kind of mistakes, Allah never uses the
term messenger to apply to him. He only refers to him in the
masculine singular form, or as Prophet, you know, he like in
Surah 66. And he says, oh, Prophet, why'd you make haram?
What Allah has made halau for you, you know, speaking about that
situation, he addresses him as a prophet, not as a messenger. So
that's a distinction that they make. So in my opinion, which I
have I posted a video about this, and I shared some my
thoughts and verses from the Quran about this topic, I think it all
comes down to as what did the messenger PSP palm actually
receive? Did he only receive this Quran? Or did he receive something
else from Allah, besides the Quran, and this is where you get
into the airtight irrefutable arguments that if anyone out there
is listening and knows one of these people and needs to discuss
it, what the evidence is that Jake is about to give are the ones that
they don't really have an answer to. So you should go straight to
them, right? Because now when we say obey the messenger, and they
retort, well, the messenger message that he received was only
the court on now that's a conflict, because if we prove that
he received something else, than your understanding of that phrase,
obey Allah and obey the messenger is no longer valid. So what the
messenger and I think, Sunnis we can even agree with this, that
what he peace be upon him actually received is linked to his
authority. Because let's say for the sake of argument that he only
received the Quran, he didn't receive any other type of lahaie
or inspiration from Allah, then we could say, well, yeah, then we
follow him in what he received. Because even in Hadith, I mean,
correct me if I'm wrong, that I think there was a situation where
there was a battle, and the Prophet was coming up with a
strategy for battle. And one of the companions, I guess, was
thinking to himself, well, maybe there's a better way that we could
do this. I'm paraphrasing. And so he asked the Prophet, he said,
Well, is this from a law? Is this why? And he said, No. And then he
said, Okay, well, here's what I think we should do. So even
Sonny's, except that not every single thing that he said and did
was why he necessarily, right, so they make that distinction. And
even the Hadith in that example, was trying to that, yes, we're
going to follow you in what is from a lot, but if you're, you
know, making up your own kind of thing that's not related
necessarily to the dean in that sense, then it's not it's subject
to criticism and some sense. So but if we prove that he received
more than the Quran, then that means that you're obligated to
follow that if he received other than the Quran from Allah, then
you're obligated to follow that. So Quran tests, cron alone,
whatever they want to call themselves, they, for the most
part, believe that the messenger only received the Quran and
therefore that is what he has to be obeyed in. So now we're going
to look at the Quran itself to see if it agrees with that or not.
Okay, so in Surah Baqarah,
I 143. It says, and thus we have made you an exalted nation, that
you may be the bearers of witness to the people and that the
messenger may be a bearer of witness to you. And we did not
make that that which you would have had to be the Qibla but that
we might distinguish him who follows the messenger from him who
turns back on his heels. And it is not indeed a hard test except for
those whom Allah has guided, nor was a law going to make your faith
to be fruitless. Surely Allah is compassionate, merciful to the
people. And then in the next verse, Allah mentions now, I'm
going to give you a new Qibla because he's looking for a new
Qibla that says, we see the turning of your face to the
heavens so we shall surely make the master of the Qibla which thou
Lycus Turn then Thy face towards our Masjid Al haram sacred mosque.
So the point is that in verse 143, it's clearly stating that the
messenger and those with him there was a community with him that were
on a previous Qibla before Al Masjid Al haram. I don't want to
get bogged down
on too much into what it is, you know, we understand it as Masha
lochsa. Right? But for the sake of argument, let's leave it open for
them to say, Okay, we don't know what the other Qibla was. Do you
guys know what it is? They have no answer to knowing what the other
people that was now if the messenger because it's not
mentioned in the Quran, if the messenger peace be upon him was
only following the cord on Then show me a verse in the Quran where
he was commanded to originally follow that first Qibla you can't
find it. The verse just assumes that the reader already knows
about this phenomenon that the messenger and his companions were
following this previous Puebla. Now what there's a couple options
was he just haphazardly doing it on his own? Did he just make up
his Puebla? Was this an existing peddler from some other generation
the the Arabs or whatever, Allah makes it clear that he is the one
who ordained this, this Puebla himself, then he states The
purpose for why he originally made this first Qibla. And now the
second one, he says, To distinguish who would who would
follow the messenger and who would turn back on his heels. So he was
a messenger at the time of the first Puebla. So he wasn't a
stray, he wasn't making up his own kind of thing. So there's no way
out of this. Now, the only way you can deal with this is to say that
the messenger had to receive something else besides the cord on
in order for him to be following this first clip below. And he
wasn't even just following it by himself. He was commanding others
to do so because they were following him on it. Did you
present this to anyone? Yes. So I presented it actually, last week,
I met up with some
on Sunday, actually, some Quran only group that I used to
regularly attend. And it was about four or five of us, I presented
this and some other verses basically proving the same
principle versus showing that the only way the prophet could have
had certain information is if he received why he apart from the
Quran. And
one of the brothers actually, who's a friend of mine, he
actually accepted it and said, yeah, there's no way out of this
box. Now, this is this is what it is. Now, I mean, I'm still kind of
stringing him along as to further making it but the first step of
what did the messenger actually receive was at the core on and
something else. He is accepting, he received something else.
Two of the other guys were kind of just totally against it. And one
brother was actually arguing with the other guy and saying, well,
because what they what what this guy did is he retreated to saying
he tried to make the distinction between ye and Houda. Okay, so to
say that, well, he might have received some other revelation,
but it's not guidance for us today. Right? And the other guy
who's also Turkish brother, he was saying, Look, no, all along this
group was saying that the only thing he received was the code on
now you're saying now that Jake is presenting this verse, you have to
make a further distinction and say, Well, no, maybe he received
something else. But it's not for us today. So now that's the next
step of proving Well, is it relevant for us today is a
guidance for us today, you know, but he was because the guy was
claiming, well, no, we never made this claim. We never said that the
messenger only received the Quran. I have documentation of video
clips from Hamza Abdul Malik himself saying this, I have
screenshots of him written on thing. And the other guy was
honest enough to say that, yes, this was the position. Now you're
retreating to something else. Now, just for? As a footnote, there are
two homes out of Malik's. There's one scholar from Tennessee. He's a
young scholar. He's even younger than me.
But he's a big scholar of Tafseer of FIP. And he him and his family
have a message so that nobody thinks we're talking about that
Hamza Abdul Malik. Now this
category, your hums Abdul Malik is an older gentleman who studied
with that mudita and he's in a total different world, right?
Definitely. Okay, Hamza. Yes. I have a question. Why are they
opposed to the possibility that the Prophet SLM would act?
preciously or on his own and have a couple that he wasn't divinely
inspired to follow?
Why would they? Well, because
originally, when I first presented it, some people would try to use
that as an argument to say, well, maybe what he was just following
some
guidance from the Torah or the NGO and some remnants or something
like that. But what I made clear is that the verse calls him the
messenger several times in the verse, you say, and it says that a
law is the one who made this PIB law, and then states his purpose.
So I think, trying to use that as an excuse of saying, well, the
messenger was just kind of making something up. It wouldn't make
sense of the verse itself when a law saying, well, we wanted to see
who was going to follow the messenger from one pillar to the
other, if he didn't have authority in the first place to be
proclaiming to the people to be on that first Qibla. It wouldn't make
any sense because it would be like, well, then what's the point
of even the necessity of having to follow him on the first one to the
second one? Would it make any sense? So this is going to be that
what's the verse number? A chapter two, verse 143, and 144. All
right, so this is I like these little quick ones that are, you
know, irrefutable, and this is something that's, that's if you
all the other stuff, I'm telling you, they're going to take you in
circles and circles and circles. And Jake and I were on the car, we
were in the car going to do the old PA, to do the slaughter. And
we talked about all these things. And I was like, Well, what about
this? You got an answer for that? What about that? They got an
answer, but this is the one that they really have no answer to.
Right. As far as I can tell. And I posted a video about this, I
released it to the these chronal own community. I've had a
discussion with him about it. As a matter of fact, Hamza Abdul Malik
refuses to speak to me about it. He didn't even come to the
gathering that we had refuses to return my calls. And I've reached
out to him in a respectful way. He refuses to even discuss it with
me. I asked at the beginning of this conversation with the with
the other guys who were there. I asked a simple question, what is
our Masjid Al haram? Now, you know, because you're stuck on this
first, Puebla thing. All right, what is the new one now? Because
now it's relevant for us today? A law repeats it three times in
Surah Baqarah. For us to be facing it now. Today. Yeah. So what is it
all for them said we don't know what it is. They're gonna have to
use outside Quran. Okay. So now that's even problematic for
yourself, because now you have commands in the Quran about Masjid
Al haram, relating to specifically to ritual, Salam Hajj, that you
can't make sense of any of those verses now, and you can't fulfill
the obligations and commands from Allah that are upon you regarding
that Allah is telling you to turn your face towards it wherever you
are, you can't do it, because you don't know what it is. Well, what
if we go even deeper and say, Well, where do we get the meanings
of words from? Right? We have to rely on an outside source? Like, I
mean, how do they answer that? Right? So which I mentioned to you
in the past, they have this idea of that the Quran defines it
basically explains itself. And because the Quran is referred to,
I think, in chapter 25, verse 33, as the best Tafseer of a Tafseer
of itself. So in some sense, it's true. And what they would use is
they would look up, for example, if we were talking about why they
would look up, how many times it's used, the different forms that
it's used, and read all the related verses to get an
understanding of it is of what it is. And that's a proper method in
some sense. But what do you do with the verses or the words that
are only used one time in the Quran? And if you're not a native
Arab speaker, especially the Arabic of the Quran, you might
have no idea what it means. Like in Surah hos, it says, Allahu
Sumit that's the only time that that word Psalm ad is used in the
whole Quran. So how do you know what it means? The only way you're
gonna know what it means if if somebody who does know what it
means is translating it for you. Or if you go to an outside source,
like a lexicon or dictionary or whatever. So they're stuck.
You're, yeah, you're stuck with that. So if you if you take such a
literal, hardline understanding of Quran alone, and what it means,
then yeah, you're, you're jammed on that. But I think they would
just say, well, in terms of our guidance and so on, it's not
related to that. But of course, it's problematic. Secondly, there
are words that mean one, same word has one meaning in one verse, and
a completely other meaning in another verse. Right, right. And
then that's another thing we discussed. Right? Right. So they,
and I don't want to say all of them, but at least a group that I
was a part of. They have a presupposition and assumption that
if a law uses an Arabic word in the Quran, that it's going to have
basically the same anything that does
eyes from that route is going to have the same general meaning
throughout the whole Quran. So for example,
at this point I should mention that generally there's two main
groups of Quran loan Muslims, some that make rituals the way that
Sunnis do, they do a ritual prayer. So law, they believe in
pilgrimage to Mecca, which is Hajj, and these sort of things, cm
fenfast In the month of Ramadan, then you have another group who
basically doesn't believe in any of that. So they basically
redefine those terms to mean something else, and to get out of
the problem of doing any of these rituals. And so the reason I bring
that up is one of the arguments that the people use for not
believing that Salaam is a ritual prayer is that a law makes a law.
It makes a law and a profit. And this is actually an argument
that's used by Christians. Have you saw this whole thing going on
with Muhammad hijab, it was big.
And so they say, Well, if salaam means pray, then a loss, a loss
preying on the Prophet, right? And a law makes the law even on the
believers in general. So they say, Well, if so law means prayer, and
these other verses, we have to apply that same understanding the
meaning of this, and then you basically wind up with shirk. So
that's an argument that they would use. And it's easily it's easy to
refute, because they do it for their own agenda when it comes to
a topic like sulla. But what do you do about the verses that
mentioned, like, body parts that a law has, when it says that a law
has a face? Right, or law has hands? You know, now, if you take
that literally, because in other verses, it clearly does mean that
he that the word means face? Versus? Right, right? It's clearly
referring to that. But now, based on the principle of LASIK,
Commiphora, he che, we know that nothing's like a law. So we can't
interpret that to mean literally, that he has a face like you and me
sitting here. Right? So when you read when you read that, what do
they do? Do they say that a law has a face? Well, no, they don't
say that he has a face in that sense. So you're you're not
applying that principle that you're saying is a Quranic
principle, when it gets down to it, you're not applying it across
the board? Because if you do you wind up with absurdities and
contradiction. So how do they end up? What kind of meaning do they
find for the word salon?
So this group, they would say that basically Salam is your duty, or
turning towards and the primary verse that they give for that is
in chapter 75, I think it is, but it can't be duty a lot doesn't
have a duty towards us. Right. And a lot makes a lot, right. So so so
even even in that even in that verse itself about Salam, they
would translate it as something like support, or because, I mean,
I know there's been even amongst Sunnis, where does the root word
Salam actually come from? There's some disagreements about that,
right? But one of the theories is that it comes from connection, the
word that means connection. So they would understand that as that
like links in a chain, right, that you you're turning towards a law.
And we would even accept that because in prayer, that's what
you're doing. Right. But they they would understand as turning
towards the law, in the sense of following his commands closely and
not.
And not going against that, basically. So it's interesting
that the will do especially specified in the Quran. Yeah,
right. And Salah is now determined to be following commands, right?
So that means every time you need to follow a command, you're going
to make a loop.
Yes. So
what they would say is that the salon, the time of the Prophet
peace be upon him was related to because the Quran was a new
revelation, right? And if people didn't have access to it, it
wasn't written on paper like we have now in the book.
The Prophet would have these basically, Quran recitation
meetings where he would recite and rehearse the revelation with the
people. So they would have to come at certain times during the day as
the Quran mentions and they would have to come and listen to them.
So that's why it was
time relative at that time. But for us now, today, it's not
relative. Hamza, what do you got?
I mean, I'm just I'm just thinking that based on like this
conversation, then even a translation of the Quran would be
unacceptable because
By nature under translation, unless you're translating word for
word in the order that it is, there is some level of human
interpretation coming in, right? Because the translator is, is
understanding what the verse says, And then giving you his interpret
that interpretation in English. Definitely. So if we're going to
accept that, how are we going to reject the prophets?
interpretation of what the Quran says, which is what we interpret
the life of the prophet as Yeah, right. I mean, even common
sensical. Every document has interpretation, like the
Constitution doesn't have interpretation, right? It has
interpretation. Like, I mean, if they wrote an article, we would
interpret it, right, others would interpret it. So I mean, that so
they're basically denying interpretation period. Right? In a
sense, yeah. Well, what they would say is that you have what the text
actually says and means Yeah, and then what the interpretation is,
and your interpretation is only correct, insofar as it accurately
represents what the text says. So who actually can judge that is a
problem.
And there, you mentioned something about the personality, this type
of event of the members of these groups, is that they tend to be
sort of arrogant people who are not really caring about what
anyone else thinks they're isolationist types. Right. Right.
I hate to use the term loners, but a lot of them are not really.
In the community, they don't like for example, if we say, well,
this, this sort of idea, what does it lead to, you can't create a
community with it and so on. You're the you're the minority,
you're not in the majority of the Muslims, they don't care, they'll
use certain verses to justify
that, for example, that every time that Allah uses the term most in
the Quran, it's always used negatively. You know, most people
don't serve Allah alone, without shirk, you know, all these kind of
things. Most people hate the truth, all these all these
negative applications of most people. And so they're not they
don't really care about most people. And me, looking back on it
from a psycho analytical view,
why did I care? My I'm a convert, my whole family is not Muslims. So
what what community and sense was I going to have with them, you
know, and I've always been a rebellious person in general, I
don't really care what other people think, I don't care, I if I
think I'm correct, I don't care if I'm one out of a million, you
actually fit in very well in the Safina set.
Right. So
I couldn't care less. And I think that which may be a good quality
at times, but could get you into trouble, like in this situation.
Other times, and a large majority of the people, at least in my
opinion, have this personality trait of kind of going against the
grain, and not necessarily caring about what place they are in in
terms of majority and minority. See, the thing is that we actually
take the exact opposite view or the drummer, in an Asana, if
you're not, in good terms, on good terms with the Jamaat of Muslims,
then there's something wrong, right? I mean, very rarely is the
whole amount going to be off the mark on something. And if that's
the case, then it would be maybe in one city or one region, and
you're never going to have the whole OMA completely off the mark.
So the idea of separation from the gym out is really the limit for
us. So the person can be cavalier as they want and everything they
want to do. But when it comes to basic doctrine, theology, prayer,
and unity, and attending of masajid, that's actually a sign of
misguidance. When a person is off, away, it has no connection, has no
group etc. Right? And we spoke about, mash it out haram and what
it is, they don't know what it is because they don't really have a
concept of what mashed it is. So they don't believe at least in
terms of this group. What they don't believe that it's a physical
place, a physical building, where you go in and serve God and meet
with the community and so on. So they're just sitting at their
house, they don't really care about that. Now, the ones who do
make Salam as a ritual prayer, they do have this like you you
brought up the website, it's called Masjid Tucson. They have
their own mosque, you know, so they at least attempted to build
some kind of community now. Their leader was killed so how
successful was it?
They at least attempted to do that do they prayed these guys
like those followers of Khalifa I'm not really sure because I
mean, it is not in the Quran.
yeah I really I really didn't don't know. Alright, let's let's
look at their practices religious duties they got the five pillars
here. Okay
religious how to perform the contact prayers. What is he
talking about the context? Yeah, so they call the salon contact
prayers meaning basically you're contacting God your connection
with God. Okay, that's how they translate it. I mean, it's sounds
a little bit weird. Okay, that's interesting. I mean, so they have
the event, which they have their own event
which is different many years later people added to Muhammad was
named to the event. All right, these people Yeah, that's another
big thing that we should probably touch on. Yeah.
Is that the shahada
as had done the ilaha illallah wa Tahoe last week Allah wash had the
one the Muhammad Rasool Allah. Yeah, they don't believe in adding
ash had done a Lila Hale Allah with ash had done and Mohammad
Rasool Allah, okay, these two things cannot be added together.
If you do this, you become a mushrik. Okay, because they
believe, and one of the verses, and this is going back to the
principle of how we understand how the word usage in the Quran
actually is. They say that in I think it's chapter 13, verse 43,
that a law is sufficient as a witness, right, allows sufficient
as witness between you and me, because there are people who are
coming to the messenger saying you're not a messenger. And the
verse says, to answer them and saying a law is sufficient as a
witness between me and you. Right? So their claim is somebody else's
needs. Jake doesn't need to come along and bear witness to the
messenger ship of the Prophet. Right? Because if I do, yeah, then
they think that I'm taking that verse and I'm calling the law
liar. Because is he sufficient? Or is he not? Right? In the same
sense that you had a similar argument from the Hawaii cottage?
Yeah. Where they said that the judgment is a law alone. The
judgment is only for a law, right? They had this idea. And in some
sense, there's some truth to that statement. But the they didn't
differentiate between what it should be actually applied to and
what it isn't. And, for example, we have other verses in the Quran
that talk about when you do a contract, you should have two
witnesses. So now Wait, what are you saying is a law contradicting
himself, he said he was sufficient as a witness. Now, I was telling
you to get two witnesses when you contract. So what is it? What is
it? You're here last now? So when you when you have such a
literalist understanding of certain verses, and you can't
differentiate between context, yeah, you're gonna wind up making
a law look like a fool. You know which song so well, it's
contradicted becomes nonsense. It's just a mishmash of
information you will love just like I said, before you apply the
principle when you want, then when Jay comes along and says, Okay,
this is your principle, let's apply it to this. Now you have no
answer. But it's interesting that how you put them in the category
of love literally lists, whereas most people put them in the
category of modernists, right? But I think littoralis is actually a
better grouping, because this is actually what the methodology that
they're applying is, yeah. And this in this sense, in that those
topics that I just brought up, they're taking a rigid, literal
understanding of that third person, and they're just trying to
apply it to every single mention of it. Yeah. So now, when you got
out of this thing, was it difficult? Where did they give you
our time? Did they come after you? Did they not care, though? Did you
have a connection with this Sam Jaren care of now knock, I had no
connection with him. And even when I was involved with it, a lot of
his stuff was just totally out there. He was interested in
conspiracy theories, and the earth is flat, and we never went to the
moon and all these other common things. So he's into so he's like,
you know, into that stuff. What's the guy's name? Alex Jones.
And whether they're true or not, me personally, I don't I don't
believe in those conspiracy theories. But whether they're true
or not, I personally I don't care. I'm not interested in in at all.
You know, whether the earth is flat around, I don't care at all.
It means absolutely nothing to me. So I was never interested in it
personally, but as far as the group that I was affiliated with,
which was Hamza Abdul Malik and some of the other people there.
They are totally against what I'm saying except for the one guy who
is completely rejecting the Quran alone concept now and
Like I said, he invited one of the brothers invited me to his house,
we had a discussion about it, it got heated went back and forth.
But at the end of the day, we gave slams, and that's it, we're fine.
And I still talk to him, I was on the phone with him the other day.
So there's no problem as far as that goes.
But the ringleader, unfortunately, wants nothing to do with me. And
me personally, I think it's because he can't deal with the
argument, you know. So now, one of the things more inset is that
really what we need to also mention in this episode is the
importance of the Quran. Right? Because we're in a world now that
you do have Quran only as an attempt to actually sidestep
Hadith. And once you sidestep that, you get you the, the, the
ego rids itself of a lot of things that have would have to do or
believe or, or no, or act upon or not do, but then it's sort of a
bait and switch because as soon as you do that, you can now all you
have is one source left. And if that source gets minimized, now
you have nothing except your desires, right your women desires.
So the Quran itself, one of the things that came up recently is,
is every verse in the Quran have to be believed in? As it is,
right? And the answer to that is on its face value in its literal
sense, the answer to that is yes, until it contradicts with another
verse, right? Or it contradicts with observable evidence, right?
Like something that you actually are witnessing right in front of
your own two eyes. So, those are the only two conditions so that
way, they call this a dededo Shaddai.
And then at hissy and then the last one is a luckily, a rational
purpose such as two opposing things cannot be the same thing,
right? Very simple rule of logic. So when the Quran
when we have verses, we do actually have to take them
literally, except in these three situations, right, these three
situations. So for example, your what the examples that you gave of
the witnesses, that would be an example of that, the first verse
in which Allah says is not Allah sufficient as witness cannot be
taken to expand upon everything else, right? Because in contracts,
he commands witnesses, right? Right. So these are the three
times other than that are the three circumstances other than
that a Muslim is obligated, right to accept everything the Quran
brings, and that at least from what I know, from our teachers,
and this is the dominant opinion, right? And I from every Sgt
scholar that I've ever heard, right has stated, the denial of an
explicit verse of Quran is right, you cannot deny an explicit verse,
a verse the language of which can only be one way or he's very clear
in its usage, and it says the verbiage and language so now
that's on the doctrinal point. The other point is the Quran in
people's lives. So we could take a turn here and look at the Quran in
daily life. So I when I look at Think of Quran is I think of
argumentation, more so then do they memorize the book? Do they
recite it every day? Are they those types of people who was
Messiah for tattered and they have to buy new ones every year? Right?
Are they people are they of those types? I remember
it was
went up to Boston back in the day when I was living in Connecticut
and working in the colleges there that we went up to Hamza she comes
in. Well, she she had some followers up in Connecticut. So we
went to Boston, went to visit them. One of them said that Hamza
Bush's grandson was literally always holding up Quran and that
he was overseeing construction.
Who was reciting Quran, right? So he was literate. So the Quran has
permeated in his daily life and his daily recitation. I'm not
seeing that from these guys, right? You want to be a Quran is
in beliefs only or in practice to know. Yeah, I would say
specifically, the group that I was with, they were very much about
studying the Quran, you know,
just about recitation learning Tajweed No, no, no, not that.
That's all. They don't care about that. I'm just saying as far as
studying it for argumentation, you know, so they they can do like
what I'm doing now. I'm just rattling off verses that I've had
memorized from the top of my head that even most Sundays can't do
you know what I mean? Which is because they're more concerned
with reciting the Quran properly, memorizing it and these different
things, which is good also, of course,
but these
People because most of them, at least in the group that I was
they're not Arabs, they don't speak Arabic, most of them are not
fluent in reading Arabic, right? And because of that they're mostly
concerned with the English what the English says they check the
check the Arabic and see the different translations and so on.
But especially them who are they're not reciting Quran in
prayer every day five times a day. Yeah, they're not concerned with
that at all. They're checking it for arguments against Christians,
against Sunnis against all these different groups to just bash
these people down. That's what the and I mean, I was part of it, too.
I would never be sitting at this table with you guys now without
without calling you a mushrik. Catherine, all these kinds of
things. Yeah, it's serious. And how many years? Were you on this
thing? About eight years? Eight years? And you had a YouTube
channel? Yeah, I did. Yep. I took a lot of the videos down. I still
have some up. Veterans unrelated to this topic. What's the name of
the channel? It's called the criterion. And you had a lot of
was it active? Yeah, I got about about 500 views for each video or
so. That's, that's good. Yeah. I mean, I'm a nobody from New
Jersey. So that's not bad. But now I'm sure if you search it now, you
won't see any of my videos because I put them all private. Yeah.
And that's for another reason. But um, yeah, so generally speaking, I
had about 500 views per video and a lot of Caranas were like,
following me and, you know, did they go? They go after you after
that? Yeah, they went after me. They I actually deleted my
Facebook account, because they went and created new Facebook
account. Not so it was kind of preemptive, to be honest, because
I knew it was going to come. So I just I put the video out and said,
Look, this is my this, I changed my view on this and no longer cron
alone because I think it's completely indefensible. I said,
I'll be coming out with a new video about this next week in sha
Allah, I put the video out, said, here's the video, you guys could
do what you want. I don't have time to be going back and forth
with you all day long on this Facebook stuff. Yeah, have a job.
I'm not doing this, you know. And I said, I'm going to be creating a
new Facebook account. One week from now, anybody who wants to add
me there can do so? If you don't so be it. I did now have less than
100 friends before I had over 3000
Yeah, that's crazy.
I didn't know they were like that violent about it. They're serious
man. I don't know about if they get violent but not violent, like
so serious that your Mushrik your Kaffir all this kind of stuff. I
used to go which I mentioned to you, I used to go to Journal
Square in Jersey City. And where the people were, which is, as you
know, a lot most of New Jersey, a lot of Muslims are Salafi. And
especially in the Dallas scene.
I was a part of the MSA at my college and this college was njcu,
New Jersey City University. So in Jersey City, every week, on the
weekends on Saturdays, the Salafi brothers would go and give a shout
out Journal Square, which is very popular area. I used to show up
there to give down to them when they would be trying to give down
with other people, Christians. I thought I was given down to them.
Yeah, you know, I'll be arguing with these guys. And actually, the
one guy who was basically heading the Tate the data table there. I
told him, when I when I got out of this crawling alone stuff. I
messaged him on Facebook and said, Look, you know, I'm done with all
this stuff. I briefly told them why. And I said, I'm looking to
start studying with Maliki Fick teacher. Yeah, around here, said
Do you know anybody? He said, Look, I'm gonna get back to you.
He came back to me. And he mentioned you. And so that's how I
came to MBI. See, and the rest is history? About three months ago.
Yep. That's crazy. I mean, how was he? What you you saw you got the
stuff in your MSA?
Not really.
I've I've personally haven't come across grant only people in my, in
my own life besides the extent of what I did mention. Yeah. I think
you see more of it online. Yeah, it was the people that you dealt
with. Were they online or do you know anybody?
In person? Oh, in person? Yeah. But like, that's mostly like,
they're not really serious. Yeah, they're not serious about it.
They're not like the way you're reciting verses. They don't even
read the ground themselves. They've just heard the talking
points and like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna do this Show me one of the
Quran says I can't write. And then he just like, there was a guy in
England who had this right. And I was friends with a guy. I was
friends with a guy.
His wife, okay, in England, we're all alone. So
They would invite us fried. So I got to know this family now his
wife had a set of sisters and their dad was this got Quran only.
Right? So no rejecter but the thing is that I really believe
this was his punishment in this life. He had one son in law who
was a Sufi, one son in law, who was his words
like hardcore, not lukewarm, like hardcore, one son in law, who was
jihadist
and one son in law who was part of some other group and then the
crazy place man, it's a crazy place right? But what are the
chances that all of the daughters end up marrying these hardcore
guys? So I would go for eat dinners there and it would be just
debate centric and battle is a battle right? It was a battle and
the the one Sufi gentleman he would go off on the side being
proper Sufi right and avoid at all and the hospitality guy did you
had he got and me we would go at it because I'm not gonna back down
and I never liked to make fits in with people. I don't have to like
to make any disruption but when it's something explicit in the
religion right like something there's no doubt about it every
single episode nor Gemma method or group or scholar will recognize
right then it's worth it. Right then it's something major, if you
look at the Prophet peace be upon him was, if you look at him, it's
such a so mellow, but there was something that was worthy of war,
which is total heat, right? So the major things are worthy, worthy of
war. And when you have that attitude that only these major red
lines, this is worthy of war, right? And any friction, that
results will be good in the long run, won't be negative will be
good in the long run, because you're protecting something
valuable. So that's the attitude to go so we I went at it with this
Jad guy that has been studied folks, it was not much of a
thing except that they I personally found. I've never, ever
found an HT except it's an argument. It's going to it's going
to be argumentation. Like I've never found constructive work. I
just found argumentation. I mean, maybe there are groups out there
that I didn't see but that's what I saw. All it is and there's like
you said this group is argumentation constant. And the
prophets lie Selim has a hadith, which he says mal Bala komen bad
alHuda ill otalgia Like there's not a single people that had
guidance and left it off, except that they were given
argumentation. And if you think about how many things in the deen
that cannot exist that you need, it cannot exist if you're an
argumentative person that loves fitna and friction. Like sometimes
like last episode, we talked about how sometimes you need action, you
need energy, you would go on and get your energy out. If you really
want to fight fights on something that's worthwhile, right?
Something that is direct, directly related to the obligations of our
belief and practice, not on something that's debatable, and
not on something that's about a person. Right? There's never a
point in that. And I don't know about you, but me personally, it's
just my personality that when I'm when you could be like tired and
you don't feel like doing something. But when you get ready
to start refuting somebody, all of a sudden, you get all kinds of
energy, you could stay up
and just start driving into somebody. It's a che tonic energy.
And, and the thing is that the things that you cannot keep up, if
you're an argumentative person is a good marriage, right? Because
you can't be argumentative in one field and a nice guy in another
because this is a character trait. And character traits cannot be
turned on and off, right? You cannot be a community members. You
can't coexist. If you're argumentative, like he you go to
massage at for example, the master doesn't belong to you. It's for
everyone. Right? So therefore everyone's going to have a say in
how things go, right? You can't be a good anything. You're not going
to be a good dad if your argument is. So all these things, the
argumentative personality, you have to control it or change it.
And all these groups, they pull that out of a person. And I
from what I saw, a lot of the families of these people were so
miserable, right? Because it was always an argument. It's always
good that ng dead argumentation. It's physically bad for you. Yeah,
like your nerves won't accept it after a while. Oh, yeah. Now that
guy, I'm just curious, was he How did he become the guy from
England? How did he become a Chronister? Like, how was he there
was a circle of elite Pakistanis where this really sort of
originated I guess it originated in Buxton. Yeah. Or it was India.
There was a bit was I'm
Caranas from there. I
didn't get his name from Pakistan. Yeah, it was there. It went to
Egypt. The Egyptian scholars flushed it out real quick flushing
down the toilet real because there was even one guy from Alaska.
Yeah, he was a graduate and he he was he I think he's still alive
actually. I don't know. I'll have to look him up. But he was heavily
promoting this stuff. Yeah. And there, they fought it and serious.
Likewise, it was very hard to push it with the Arabs, right? It's
very hard to push it because Sierra stories of Sahaba it's sort
of so ingrained, it's in it's everywhere. Right. But amongst the
Agim monks, the you said the Turks there was there amongst the
Persians. I mean, the ABA in Pakistan was very popular. But now
it's seeping back into the now that education is lower in places
like Egypt. It's seeping back in Oh, really? Yeah. It's even back.
And definitely, I would say, with people in places like England and
America. Yeah, I think it's becoming increasingly more
popular. It's popular, because it's a way to achieve what you
want to achieve. I mean, if you admit Hadith, there are a lot of
things that become haram. Right? And they're because things become
fodder that not only just they become obligate obligatory, how to
do them properly becomes obligatory, like besides that, and
besides the rebellious nature of it, that you talked about, what
appeals like, what about appeals to other people, you know, like,
you were like, you were coming from, like a Catholic background,
you said, so you didn't grow up with a lot of the restrictions
that I guess Muslim kids might grow up with? Right? So maybe that
was less a part of it for you? Or like, in general, like, what did
people find about it, that drove them into it?
Um, well, like the people that you said, you came in contact with a
lot of them were not kinda on this argument thing.
So it's hard for me to say, because that's the majority of
people that I was around. And that's the personality trait that
I saw. But I'm assuming for the other people who are not so
heavily into it, like know the arguments, ins and outs and try to
prove you wrong, and so on. I guess it's because they don't want
to follow all these other Hadith that are telling them to do XYZ,
maybe, especially in the West, it might make their life more
complicated. I don't know. Allah knows best what's in there, you
know what their intention is, as far as that goes?
All right, any what else? We got anything else? No, I mean, it's
good. Yeah, I just want to add one last thing, because I feel like we
spent a lot of time talking about the groups who don't believe in
the rituals and so on.
And you know, what kind of a proof against them is, obviously what I
mentioned about Masjid Al haram. It also applies to the people. The
Quran is to think that Salam is a ritual prayer. But I think there's
a large portion of them who do make these rituals, but what can
we say about them? What's the problem with them? problem with
them is, is that one of the main pillars of their principle is that
the Quran is fully detailed as I gave them the verse right?
Now we know that the Quran tells you to make Salah tells you to do
the prayer and main mentions a few prayer times. But it doesn't
detail the prayer from Allahu Akbar to Jerusalem. Yeah, right.
So how are these code honest and you brought up the website? The
guy was Shah Khalifa, I think he actually still has on YouTube, you
can watch him demonstrating the prayer. So what I would say about
these people, I would press them on, where are the details of all
the things that you're doing in your prayer? Were in a quote on to
say begin your salon by raising your hands and saying Allahu
Akbar, nowhere is nowhere there. How many rakaats or do you perform
for each prayer? It's not Nicola. Ah, yeah. So you are getting this
stuff from a Sunni source, which mainly comes from Hadith. Yet
you're rejecting Hadith? Yeah. So you're claiming the Quran is fully
detailed? Yet? You're doing things in regards to the deen like your
Salah every day. Yeah, that is not detailed in the Quran. So this is
one of the reasons why I flat out rejected that because I said,
That's complete nonsense is only three options either sulla has to
mean something else.
The Sunni perspective is correct that we need something else to
show these details, right? Or the Quran is just false that it's
claiming to be fully detailed, and it's not and I just reject the
whole thing. But I couldn't accept of saying the Quran is fully
detailed and yet I'm doing something and I'm claiming the
Quran says that doesn't have the details for it doesn't make sense.
So that's the problem with these people did these did they ever use
the Hadith? And say, well, the Prophet himself said don't write
my Hadith? Yeah, they would use that's an end
amateurs are going to use that yeah, that's that's an amateur
because you're using a hadith. Exactly and actually eat abuse, so
does and Rashad Khalifa even used to when he talked about the
Allah's name being mentioned a multiple of 19. And he actually
rejected two verses in Surah, nine 128 and 129. He used a hadith as
evidence of that, which I don't remember off the top of my head,
but it was somewhere along the lines that basically every verse
in the Quran had to be substantiated by think two
witnesses. And supposedly there's a hadith that says, these two
verses only are the only two verses that had were substantiated
by one person once a hot one. Yeah, one Sahaba. So they're
saying this goes against that principle. Right. And so that was
some kind of proof to say that there's something fishy about
these two verses. Yeah. So I always press back by saying you're
telling us to reject Hadith, then you're using a hadith to show a
Quranic principle that you think is true, which was nonsense
anyway, so So this whole episode, in case anyone comes across this,
and I'm pretty sure at this rate, every family, every extended
family, hopefully not every family, every extended family will
have someone who's met someone. Right? So this is your 90 Minute.
Pill. Right? And you got it. And I like to keep my Deen, simple,
right? And if something is true, then its vaccine or its reputation
should also be very simple, right? It should not be that complicated.
Because if something is true, then Allah has made it true for all
people. Right? Exactly. And therefore it needs a very simple
proof because not everyone is literate, not everyone can go deep
into things. So the idea of when people say Islam is easy. Yeah,
Islam, there are some complicated elements and in learning in Islam,
but the the necessities Yeah, the basic The basics are very simple.
And this one verse that you gave her from Surah Baqarah. About the
fibula is the one that there's no way around it if you ever deal
with someone who's from this. So again, closing remarks, I'll start
with closing remarks that we can go around. People should keep
their Deen simple. We should recite the Quran daily. Stay away
from fitten. However, if it's something that's essential in the
deen, right, where your religion is being its fundamentals being
attacked, then you don't step back. It's like your kids being
attacked. Right? Other than that, hello. So we should stay away from
these fields of fits in and drama. Okay, unless it's something that's
from these fundamentals, but keep our DNS simple by reciting at
least if we can use recite, yes, you know, every morning on the way
to work alone, right? If you could recite Quran daily, and if you
could recite on the weekends longer session with the book of
Allah, this is the not an easy time and you need a lot of time
with ALLAH SubhanA which ALLAH because ALLAH to Allah says,
energy li Suman vaca Ronnie says, I'm, I'm the, the Julius is the
one sitting with, right, I'm the city with I'm attending with the
one who remembers me. So make your gatherings of the Quran long on
your weekends make that something that's definitely part of your
day, daily, even if it's less than the Monday through Friday, but
that to me, is what these Quran is totally missing. They don't recite
the Quran, which is just the irony of it. So that's my closing
comment, Hamza, what you got, I just think it's really important,
like Dr. Shetty, you were saying earlier,
of staying close with the Jamal with the congregation of people
are important. Because even steps like this or even in general, like
when you kind of step out a little bit, eventually you will regress
back to the mean. Yeah. And then the Jamaat is our thermometer,
right? Are our barometer of knowing, have we gone too far?
Right? Has this thing affected us negatively? We're going to see it
in the gym, we're going to see that people don't like to spend
time with us, we're going to see that we no longer can sit in
msgid. And this has happened and many scholars have written about
this, the sign of a scholar that's lost his way is that he cannot go
and just sit in a random mosque, right? Either you become too
controversial. No one wants to talk to you, right? Or you become
too arrogant, or you just love the powerful, right? So these that's
actually one of the biggest signs that if we can become old men and
old women, right, and sit with our families without a problem that go
to the msgid without a problem, right? This is a good sign. This
is a sign that we've kept with our Jamaat and we and Allah has
instilled in us a love for the general Muslim Oma. Right? Well,
the last thing I want to say is, I just want to read one more verse
regarding the Chronos because some of them might claim Well, this
others
stuff that the Messenger of Peace be upon them receive. It's not
relevant for us like when I asked them about what is Masha haram, we
don't know what it is.
In chapter three, verse 96, it says, certainly the first house
appointed for men is the one at Becca blessed and a guidance for
the nations. Right. It's Huda Lila mean, it's for mankind. So for you
to say that you don't know what it is right? And a loss telling you
it's guidance for mankind. That's a contradiction. Yeah. How could
Allah give us something that's guidance for mankind? And yet, on
your own principle of following only the Quran? It's telling me
it's unknowable? Yeah. How could it be guidance for mankind? If
it's unknowable? It makes absolutely no sense. You know, so
to say that it's not relevant to us, is just ridiculous.
The last thing I want to ask you, actually is what do you think is
like, what category do these people fall under? Are they
Kaffir? Are they mushrik? What? What would you say they are and
what would their fate with a law be if they maintain this belief,
until death? Well, if navvies aid in medically fit, he's one of the
early early in which day demands in the in the method. So I'll
speak from his perspective, that
apostates are of two categories, a monitored and is indeed, a
monitored as someone who casts off the identity of Muslims. So
there's no discussion about him. He doesn't want to be Muslim. He's
telling you I'm not a Muslim anymore. Right. That's the motet
the apostate, then you have this indeed, this indeed is someone who
is telling you I'm a Muslim, and he's telling you a prime
practicing Islam, but what he's practicing is clearly
contradictory to
the Quran, right? So explicit verses of the Quran, or Matoba
facts in the Ummah that the whole Ummah knows, right, or what we do
simply put in a simple formula formula, that which is known in
religion by necessity. So at Illumina deemed the rule. So if
that's negated, okay, and then there's index, there are not
Muslims. Okay. They're claiming their claim to Islam doesn't make
them Muslim. So I can claim to be a Russian all I want, I can keep
saying Money, money, money doesn't make me rich, right. And I can
claim to be, you know, Swedish citizen, doesn't mean I'm a
Swedish citizen, right? So if I don't have the right evidence or
proof, so they would be zindex. There would be considered they
want to even be considered innovators. Like heretics are
those who deny an explicit verse or Hadith, okay, an explicit verse
or Hadith without, and they deny it, but that's not what's about
that. It's not widespread. Okay. So we said, that's a you're an
innovator at that point, which means your Muslim will burn, you
can be buried in the Muslim, you could do anything that's solo,
like burial, go to Mecca, go to Medina, you could do those things,
enter masajid you could do those things, but your deeds we don't
believe will be accepted. But those people do you think that
they'll go to * and eventually be relieved from that at some
point or not? Doesn't Duke does indeed take the path of Zen DACA
we would say that is a path of permanent hellfire. Right, but the
innovator, right, the innovator is someone who we say yes, that he's
not going to be treated like a Kaffir. Right. And actually, we
have a bigger principle in the Maliki school. If, if the teacher
who I learned this from
assuming that he's giving a larger principle of the Medical School,
which is that anyone who says La ilaha illallah, Muhammad Rasool
Allah, some day in eternity, as he puts it, that word will benefit
him, we cannot make him totally equal to the kaffir. Alright, so
that might actually include this indique as well. Yeah, but that's
that's what my point was going to be that a large portion of them
would claim that you know, that they would say like the *
Allah. Muhammad Rasul Allah. Yeah, well, some of these guys wouldn't
even say that. But let's just say for sake of argument, the ones
that do and the ones that then we said that what what they're upon
is definitely a path to towards jahannam. It's not a path to
paradise. And there's only two paths, right? So, but but that
phrase, that phrase, can someone who utters that phrase with
sincerity cannot be treated equally to someone who refused it
for permanently right so
therefore, we say that one day in eternity, they may be saved. But
we do also say that the Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa
salam, where he's at the fountain and the believers are coming to
him, and he's calling upon people and the angel stops certain
people. They say, not him. He changed
version after you. So what did the ultimate say? They said he, they
means it refers to innovations, and heresies in beliefs, right,
not an actions and beliefs. So actions will be innovations of
worship and action, we consider that sinful, we don't consider
that to be a doctrinal matter. So let's say I say, all right from
now on in my mosque after every Jamaat, we're going to do 10
Jumping jacks, right? And we're going to believe that that's we're
going to consider that as sunnah. Right? We would say that's sinful,
right? It doesn't remove me from being a Sunni Muslim, right is
sinful. Or if I say, let's all wear a special ring, and it's
going to bring you something you know, who knows what, then it's
better in that respect, so it's out of action. So we hold those
people to be
on an unfortunate path. It's on a path to *, right? Right. And
there's no doubt about that. We can't mince words on that. But the
word La la la la Mohammad Rasool Allah, when said with sincerity
cannot be made equal to someone who refuse to say it. Right.
Right. So someday in eternity to benefit from but if the Messenger
of Allah is gets angry at the fountain, where there's only two
options, there's heaven and there's *, right. And he's
calling people to paradise. And then he gets angry with people and
says, Go away, go away, go away. Right? And he's the messenger of
mercy. He's a prophet of mercy, then what does it tell you? How
bad these types of things are? These these major blunders in
doctrine art, right.
All right, does that come off here to Dr. Amin, any final say? I
mean, these guys are missing out.
Just like these guys are missing out on the beauty that is the
profit and following his example. I mean, you know, science is King
these days and a few fast two days a week. It helps your immunity
hops themselves and you know what I'm saying? It's just such a silly
thing. And the second thing is that if God is the witness over
everything, that how do you do Moon sighting? I mean, the word is
shot. I mean, that this throws the moon sighting thing
that's true. I mean, how would you even know the month you someone
needs to witness the moon to know the month right? Then again,
they're probably not even fasting. Right? Right. Don't really care
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Allah.
was a book I had written Al Quran the ultimate miracle, I had
delivered talks on the subject and they were videotapes and cassettes
available. But this man who originally made the discovery,
which I found useful in talking to Muslims and non Muslims, but this
man is sickness has developed now he's claiming to be a new
Rasulullah like what Maha Shula was at one time and Musa Allah
Muhammad, this is a sickness, this is a sickness that is quite
common. You see, once a person you know, he finds that He's so clever
that people are you know, Hero worshipping Him. And you know,
whatever I say, I know these people will believe. So the man
creates a sicknesses man, I can make claims. Today, this guy
called Rashad Khalifa. He is the man who discovered this theory,
Allah Hafiz Adarsha. Now he said he is a new Rasul to the Messenger
of God. There are certain flaws in the theory. But besides that, now
he's claiming now on the basis of that discovery that he is Rasul
Allah and now he came out to prove first was that the Quran is
Allah's Kalam not change, not one letter is changed. Now through the
same theory is proving this trying to prove that look, the Quran has
changed, that there are verses in the Quran which are not supposed
to be there, a start for Allah. So I challenged this man to a debate.
I sent him a telegram that I'm prepared to hire the Madison
Square Garden in New York at my expense as your hubby's from
Tucson come over. And he says I've proved to the world that you are a
Khasab a liar and a cheat and a false false guy. So he says no, I
don't want
Come to the Madison Square Garden you come to Tucson in pilot humans
to have a discussion absolute rubbish. There's no time for me to
talk to people in private scum calm. You are the truth messenger
of God then come forward man. I'm prepared to talk to you. So I have
this continued with the tape as well as the book as in the
cassette, no more