Shadee Elmasry – My friend has two moms.
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AI: Transcript ©
Shame, shame, shame
breaks down boundaries, and it makes the children more
promiscuous as they grow.
The route over the teaching of relationship and * education in
Birmingham primary schools could be seen as an inevitable clash
between liberal values and religious conservatives.
We are having our children come home with material that
contradicts our moral values. Parents are very angry.
They know to undermine parental rights at
the protests in Birmingham started because of an equality program
called No outsiders.
The lessons are about embracing differences including race,
religion, gender, age and disability as part of the legal
requirement to comply with the equalities act.
But it was specifically the teaching around LGBT issues and
storybooks featuring same * families, which drew criticism
from the mainly Muslim parents at the school. They feel their
religious values which are also protected under the equalities act
under threat.
Amiya Ahmed is one of the protest organizers not about gay lesbian
rights and equality This is purely about proselytizing
homosexual way of life
comes in into salatu salam ala Rasulillah while he was talking to
women who Allah today we have a different type of podcast
something that we've never done before
I got a message and I you get a lot of people got a ton of
messages. And this one I answered from a young man, he's 20 years
old, and he's Turkish, English Bengali, you're a son of the
basically son of Earth, basically his son of man lives in England,
and wanted to talk to me about share some stories. So I said,
Okay, 20 year olds from England, not from Don't you always talk to
some youth from England? So we talked and we had some we had a
such a good discussion on.
On zoom, we talked on Zoom, that I thought, you know, I want to share
some of these things, discussions with people because I know that a
lot of parents are probably their youth could really relate to this
young man, his name is Dan Odin.
Okay, and as I said earlier, he's really Son of man being from
Anatolia, Europe, and South Asia. And then living in England,
obviously, is a mainstream traditional Muslim, Sunni Muslim,
studying B, Arabic and Islamic Studies at Leeds University of
Leeds. Where's Leeds again? So Leeds in the North East of
England, Northeast, and I'm living in the northwest, but I actually
grew up in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. So I kind of Yeah, you don't you
don't have a Liverpool accent? You're from Liverpool? Yeah, so my
dad, my dad's family. They're from Bangladesh, originally, but they
emigrated to Liverpool. So all my cousins have never put me.
Okay, good. Now, the reason that you talked is that you are
concerned about the way people talk about this matter. And the
issue is that I, in my opinion, if you asked me the issue of the
theory, theoretical position on the LGBT community, you know, the
LGBT, you know, movement and wave. Right, is, I think it's been
covered so much. But what you brought to the table was the
experience with people, the who are like dependents of LGBT
families. Right, right. And that's a whole different thing, which is
basically your you had a classmate and a long discussion with a
classmate who has two moms, which that doesn't necessarily, you
know, that's, you know, not something that my generation ever
dealt with. Right? Because it wasn't the matter wasn't old yet.
Now, it's matured. I should say it hadn't matured. Now, it's matured
to the point that you know, that exists. And she's lived her whole
life with these two moms who are lesbians.
And
the main point here being is that when people take on a, an
aggressive posture, or a disgusted posture,
that that point,
you're you may get your point across to the person who's maybe
bringing something new in your religion that you're upset about,
but you're completely, you know, doing something different
to an innocent person, you know. So now there are dependents on
this matter. And why don't you lead by telling us exactly what
went on in that discussion in that conversation, which made you think
that the way in which we discussed this matter needs to be tweaked?
So that we can add in consideration for people who were
still trying to give Dawa to that are, you know, they themselves
haven't done this stuff. But then they've been raised in it. So why
don't you tell us that story? Okay, so. So it actually happened
when I was still at school. So I'm at university now. But this was
this was, this was a case when, when I was in my last years of
school, and I'd set up a kind of interfaith Discussion Club in my
school at lunchtime. And a lot of my friends came, and the reason I
set it up is because I have friends of all different
backgrounds, some were very clearly practicing Christians,
some were atheists, somewhere, a couple of were Muslim. And it was
really interesting. We were having kind of really interesting
discussions. And so So we set up this club, and there was this girl
that who was who was in my year, and, and we kind of been on
perfectly fine. Terms. Before that. We weren't, we weren't ever
there was nothing, you know,
there was nothing of any, any tension or kind of, or anything
between us before before this. And the interesting thing was that
after this discussion, there wasn't anything tense, or any kind
of awkwardness between us, either, despite the fact that it was a
discussion about where I was perfectly clear, and
uncompromising, and kind of straight up about about what I
believe, as a Muslim who,
who adheres to the kind of mainstream consensus on this
issue, from my religion. And despite the fact that she She's
the daughter of
a couple, a lesbian couple, right? And so, you kind of expect and
I've had discussions with other people in the past where it's gone
like this, where you kind of where people get outraged and be like,
this is, this is ridiculously unethical. And if there's just a
lot of outrage and kindness, and shutting down to the debate, and
this is this is discriminative. And this is prejudice, and this is
phobic, right. But this was a discussion where we're where as I
said, afterwards, we were on fine terms, despite despite you being
so clear about the site position on this, and the fact that I
adhere to that position.
So the thing is that it's oftentimes sold to us that the,
you know, tolerance position,
you know, is an absolute,
like, it's an absolute law, it's an absolute, it's a given, it's
something that cannot possibly, you know, be questioned. And I
think that there's a there's a news clip abouting You know, what
happened in terms of the Birmingham marches against this
matter? Where the journalist sort of takes that position and she,
like, their tone of voice, and she used that position, like, are you
actually like, it's almost like making the person sound insane, if
if they don't accept and have a complete tolerance of a certain
thing, right? Whereas, you know, if they entered through the door
of tolerance, they actually slam that door shut, after they got in.
Right, if you notice that it started off with tolerance, but
the tolerance of any other view is no longer there, and oftentimes
calls to unity, or often just calls to, you know, this opinion,
right, our opinion on this, you know,
and so, when we talk about people like when we when we talk about
the family members
of people involved in this, we have to realize that this is
something that you know, is people will always be attached to their
parents. And we have to maybe, you know, employ the saying that the
Prophet peace be upon him or his teaching that I can even be
jarhead he's coming as a Muslim so, of course, he's coming he had
converted and we're not talking about conference in January we're
talking about
regular people but who aren't Muslim. But when I could ima came
amongst us a hobbit the prophesy centum said Don't curse a Kadima
for his son is amongst us now. I mean don't curse epogen for his
son is amongst us now. Well, what that indicated is that even though
I could in my head professed Amen and rejected idolatry he's still
gonna have some kind of attachment to his father. Right? Yeah. If
not, you know an attachment a sensitivity we can say because we
can say let's say okay myth complete, but uh, from him.
Personally, like colossal, completely cut off from you, you
know, for what you did to the province. I said, I'm fine, but
you'll still have a sensitive
Did it and you'd be offended
by someone who assaulted them. So, and this discussion here is not
for the whole Twitter world that wants to always, you know,
to bring something dramatic and sign the alarm bells, this
discussion is for, you know, the other people who are in your
shoes, or her parents and I know my community, parents of high
schoolers who deal with this, where
the position of outrage.
While it may be your position, it also has a cost. Right? Now, of
course, we're outraged, Rationally speaking, meaning that we will not
budge on a subject. And we have there our emotions are both
rational and natural, right?
The rational is your priority, whether you believe in something
or not believing something, just like Rational love of the prophets
I send them
it could be is rational and emotional. The rational is that
before I do anything, I consult with the Prophet, sunnah. And
emotional is that I love to remember him. Right? Both of them
were excellent, right? So likewise, when we meet sins, now,
we should be rationally outraged in the sense that I will not even
budge an inch, nor give it a millimeter to this view. But
emotionally speaking, you end up having to control yourself, for
the sake of the onlooker. And for the sake of those who have grown
up immune to this matter. You know, that was the point that that
struck me about this conversation. So
how did you put it to the person? You know, and not it's not the
words that I'm looking for? Here? It's, it's the emotion. Right,
right, which is the emotion of if you flip out on this, you lose
this person for good. Right. So it was there. Tell me about how you
actually ended up, you know, talking in that respect, I think I
think you brought up some really good points there. And in terms of
this specific conversation, I was very much conscious of the fact
that
you know, how, like, in Islam, there's this idea that, that maybe
back potentially, one of the only justifications you have for living
as a minority in a non Muslim society is your dowry
responsibility, right? Yeah. Very, this was this, that was very much
at the forefront of my mind when I was researching this topic when I
was discussing it with this individual, when I've looked into
it at university, etc. And it's the idea, again, that we're not,
you know, there was this brilliant thing that was circulated recently
called something along the lines of Patrick Gower, on the internet.
And it's this idea that, you know, that you so sort of,
almost, like the aggression is palpable in in when you speak, and
you end up the show, you get a victory in that moment, a little
little soundbite or a clip for YouTube where you can entitle it,
you know, ending this person's career or whatever, and you can
win in that sense. But but it's such a such a great cast, you
know, in, you know, in terms of not thinking long term, you put
like 20 people are lonely by the time that you've brought this one
person to Islam. And I guess that that's kind of what was at the
forefront of my mind dour for me is very much about trying to
wishing to see the best in all of God's creatures, and to understand
their hurts, and to see his image right behind their veil. And
that's not something that I that I got from from Chicago working
abroad. And, and I was really taken by that because because I
thought this is a girl whose parents are too like, like, I just
think about my own attachments, my own mom and dad, right? And then
and then imagining kind of the confusion, the the sense of
cognitive dissonance, whatever that might be, might come from
being confronted with somebody who you seem to be on fine terms with
before but suddenly, is against the very facts of your parents
relationship. Like, you know, so so so these are things and you
mentioned the Birmingham.
The issue that we had here in Birmingham in the UK made national
news coverage, as you said, BBC Sky News. Everyone picked it up.
It was headline news for months actually here in the UK. And, and
that was again, my concern was that there are kids walking past
these angry Muslim parents who are protesting, you know, and some,
and in some of the instances they were like, they got into kind of
mocking and, and shouting and things like that. And I'm
thinking, well, it's not like you said, it's not like it was 20
years ago, 30 years ago. There are now kids that are walking to
school with two moms at home and two dads at home. You know, what
about their impression of this? What about what about our duties?
cause them to not increase the confusion in the dilemma, but
actually bring a healing to it right, bring a clarity in terms of
a way of life, right? Our way of life and our understanding of this
issue of same * attraction of transgenderism of all these these
issues is, in our opinion, a fifth three, one, right? It's part of
our natural disposition, it should come naturally to us the Islamic
view is something that should bring people peace and healing, if
understood correctly, and delivered clearly. And so that's
our game. That's, that's, that's our objective rather. So yeah,
that's our objective. And I think that
a lot of times the emotional element of persuasion is left off.
And to persuade somebody to your cause
is better than simply bludgeoning you know, a person and then
putting off 1000 other people from your cause? Right. And the idea
here that we take into consideration, the secondary
level, the second generation that has just grown up with this
completely, innocently, it's not their fault, I think is a priority
in Dawa, because our purpose is to call people to Allah subhanaw
taala. Of course, it's more important to make sure that the
Muslims understand their Deen. Now, why is it so difficult to
maintain both? How are they mutually exclusive that, right?
It's not mutually exclusive at all. And all it takes is some
emotional discipline. And really, just, it's a factor. Now you have
a math equation. Okay. And now you have a new part of the equation.
And this new part of the equation, it basically tells us listen,
we as Muslims simply, you know, not only you know, we're for we're
not just, you know, we can't support this, we're also against
any, anything other than a man and a woman married. Yeah, right.
marriage between a man and woman, anything against sexual relations
between a man and a woman, husband and a wife, I should say, not just
man and a woman but husband and a wife. And that's our belief,
right? For context, there was, you know, this whole thing in the
Birmingham thing. It was an injection to these lessons that
were being taught in the schools. Yeah, and little like young
children, primary school children were being read stories by their
teachers and titled things like two male penguins in their check.
Julian is a mermaid right? Where the boy wants to be mermaid, my
Princess Boy very just and, and it's very clear for us as Muslims,
right, I think back to, you know, a ad from the Quran, you know,
about, you know, Prophet loot, Allison, and these were, these
have been, we have to think carefully about this, in the sense
that our religion, and this is kind of my research interest at
university is how is Islam designed? Specifically? How is it
kind of interwoven into the fi, where it's deliberately meant to
be a religion? For to protect us against the kind of extremes of
the modern world, right? Yeah. And then there's this, you know, it's
not, you know, you'd almost laugh at the idea that someone thinks
it's accidental, that Allah has quoted his prophet in this book,
you know, so, you know, in, you know, referring to look at
yourself,
in, you know, for for our ages. And so there's, you know, for
example, in sort of
just reading the, the interpretation here, you know, you
lost after men rather than women, you transmit sort of bound, that
that's clear, you know, there's no, there's no way that we can, we
should feel embarrassed about that, as Muslims, there's no way
that we should, we should feel anything, but you know, a piece of
that as Muslims, there's another is in sort of digital, right. And,
again, the just the interpretation in English, I am number 71. He
said, My daughters are here, if you must, right, that's an
interesting one to reflect on. And it's, it's absolutely clear in
terms of our Islamic position, we can't as you said, we can't budge
in terms of going against the consensus of the lemma for 1400
years longer. We can't budge against the Quran. We can't budge
against any of this stuff. We can't accept the idea that you
know, our kids, maybe not my kids, but Muslim kids are being taught
in school right about Andy read stories about, you know, the idea
that, you know, it's fine to, to, you know, be a girl if you want to
change and be a girl and be a boyfriend, like that. We can't
move on that. But at the same time, there are little kids who
might get bullied in school by Muslim children to having two
parents of the same * at home. And that's as far as you know, as
far as I
Our duty to be a healing power, you know, a source a source for,
for bringing about healing and clarity. And, and you know, and
peace. That's that's unacceptable as far as as far as we're
concerned. So we have to deal with this with, with the passion, you
know 100%. And when you're confident in a belief, and you
know you're doing something in the right way, there is a realization
that sometimes less is actually more. And I say that in the, in
the reaction element of things because haven't been around anyone
who's been around, you know, human beings and tried to persuade them
of anything, you know, that you have to read reactions. And if
your reaction is going to be you push people away, because of how
badly you flew off the handle,
you know, then you must have not had, you know, any, you know,
teenage kids that you ever dealt with, or any people that you dealt
with, because you realize that, hold on a second, I want to follow
up, fly off the handle, but we don't we're not guided by our
impulses, even if our impulse is good, because it's good to fly off
the handle.
You know, in an appropriate time save Musa as a synonym. We won't
use the phrase fly off the handle with a great prophet, but we will
say the Prophet Musa got extremely angry to the point that he threw
the tablets. Right, he threw the tablets. Now let's fast forward.
There was a time where
it Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam received a delegation from
Philippine beef. And they said to him, we're willing to enter into
submission to your religion to Islam. This is the year nine after
the Hijra. And he said to them,
but they said, but we have one condition. We travel a lot. We
need to do Zina. So we need you to exempt us of Zina, right.
How did the Prophet react? If what if he had reacted in the you know,
the way that most of us would react? Whether sarcastically or
reacting with some kind of emotion, they would have fled
away? So whether or not you people want to argue it or not? It's not
about arguing, look at the result, when you fly off the handle on a
matter, even if you should? It theoretically, like it's an
absolute? No, and it's an abomination, what you're uttering,
but will, how does my, you know, way of expressing myself? Get me a
result? Will it get me a result or not? And that's really the
question here. And people have to realize that we have to
eventually broach this topic with you'd have to do this in
everything, if you're raising, praising people or trying to
convince them of anything. And that's an interesting point.
Because these these individuals, these profits, this refund them,
they when they you know, got angry. It was without ego. It was
in a pure way. And repoint that's a it's a great point. Yeah. And
when we when we need are we not? Maybe we're definitely not on that
level. But but but even if we're trying to be we can't we can't
ever guarantee that when we, you know, fly off the handle to use
your tent that it's not, you know, muddied by our fingers. Right. And
so I think it's that idea of looking, looking, wishing to see
the best and all God's creatures and to be to be healing and to be
into anything without, without ever, you know, compromising on
God. You have to be firm and clear about about your asana position on
this. Yeah. And it's an issue when people are not technically because
that just creates more more confusion. That's that's
unacceptable, frankly. But it's a completely unacceptable to be to
muddy the waters on something. And honestly, even certain discussions
on details.
They oftentimes, the the may be meant for scholarly footnotes, but
they just confused, you know, the common person. And even that's,
you know, probably you could say inappropriate to be done in
certain data, public data settings. Right. An example for,
to say, as an example, the difference between something that
would remove someone from Islam and something that would just be
sinful or something that would make someone an innovator.
Sometimes if you speak in a way that that you deny the graver
accusation, it may come across as a defense to the common person.
You know, for example, someone says, you know, I don't feel like
praying Witter, right, what do we is this person, a sinner or
innovator what? And someone says, oh, he must be an innovator. I
said, No, he's not innovator. He's just sinful. Right so we've we've
removed the you've taken the issue and defended the person a little
bit by saying you're not he's not that bad. He's in the middle. But
the, from a persuade from an appearance standpoint, it sounds
like you're defending them.
Right. And that even that is dangerous to do. When you're
talking about something in a public setting, it ends up causing
confusion as well. And they're over 200. Yet speaking about
clarity, you know, in matters of Dean, and I remember back in 2015,
when we first started the sphenoid podcast, that I was in a phase
where this woke stuff was really just starting to catch on with
people, and amongst Muslims. And I had a really like, serious
reaction to it. And sometimes, and it's halfway through, you know,
that first season, I thought to myself,
are we trying to convince people? Or are we trying to crush them?
Right? And I came upon a saying of a chef a, about debates and about
these things. He said,
remove the sickness, don't kill the patient. You know, and in
that, I think you'd will turn off people who are looking for an
extreme.
And that may be their ego needs to get it out of their system, right,
where that's what they're, they're looking for blood. And sometimes
we can't deliver that. Sometimes the reaction needs to be a bit
clearer, but I would say tempered, that's the language, I would say
it needs to be clear that why? Because there are other people
watching, that are innocent, and they're going to be taking they're
going to completely shut off Islam, from their minds forever.
For good. Right. And sorry to do that, I just also think it's about
sincerity. Right? And sense that when you have when people get it,
get into these debates, you know, that that if they're too harsh,
and it's almost like who really kind of aggressive and crushing
people. That's no longer dour? You know? Yeah. It's just, it just
isn't. And then on the flip side, when people get into these
discussions that people are overly compassionate, and I don't mean
like truly compassionate, I mean, like, like, just overly sensitive
and oh, and like, understanding to a point where it's just getting a
bit extreme learning access and kind of pushing the boundaries of
Islam. Yeah, that's no longer compassion either. Because
compassion to be too compassionate has to be clear. You can't
compromise on this on the deed. Otherwise, you're not being
compassionate, you're being the opposite of that. So it's
imbalanced about being you know, really, in the middle and kind of,
yeah, just just, I think, I totally agree that this idea of
compassion, if you're not the, what is the compassion for the
immediate moment? Or do we believe in an afterlife to that? We
believe that there is a law and Allah subhanaw taala has certain
things that that does not want us to do. Right? And,
and there's a message there is a dowel here, and there is Hellfire
here. And so when we're compassionate, we're compassionate
about that. As much as anything else. So compassion would be to
lead people to Islam and away from their current. Like, the shahada
begins with the negation there is no God, except Allah subhanaw
taala. So we want them to move away from what they're upon. We
don't want them upon what their point of where it's not. Right,
right. So I mean, we don't we believe not only it's not true,
it's not like it's incorrect. No, it's gonna cause you a big
problem. Right? It's for you. It's like all the next Yeah. And not
only that, it's a very bad thing for you in this life. And the next
we have to actually, I don't think a lot of people believe that
deeply. Like, viscerally as it's supposed to be like, You believe
that someone who chooses to play, you know, racing games on the
street. Right? You know, people who racing cars on the street?
Well, you totally have your gut will squeeze up if you heard that,
let's say your your brother, a little brother, someone is doing
that, and going 90 miles an hour, racing on the highway with his
friends, because we know that doesn't end up. Good. Right? At
the very least, you're going to probably get your license taken
away from you for like five years, if not get into an accident. So
you got squeezes because you know that right now this could affect
him. Whereas as even a claim says certain things people do them
further entire had to dunya and don't see the harm of it until the
afterlife, right? Yeah. And beliefs, religious beliefs are,
you know, from them from amongst the things that people don't see
the result of negative result of it. Like it's like visually, yeah,
except an afterlife is religiously. So we tend to feel
like less of a direct feeling that this is terrible. But you know
what, I think that comes from an insecurity on our part on too many
of our partners, Muslims, like people don't believe enough that
the Islamic position on this issue is they don't feel it in their
hearts. So
And one of the really interesting thing, when I had this discussion
with this girl in school at this debate club,
one of the really interesting points that she actually admitted
to me was that her two months before, as they were having her
little brother, they were really concerned about, about not having
a male figure in the household and the like, like, to the point where
they were, like, really discussing it with one another, and kind of
like, they were really concerned about about the ethics of, of, you
know, what is this? What is this? Is this fair on this little boy
who doesn't have, you know, a father figure role model in his in
his house, or we are waiting? Right. And that was such an
interesting thing. And you know, what, that only Chu only admitted
that to me, she only, we only that only came out in our discussion,
because of the way that I was discussing the issue. I wasn't,
you can't afford to be to be, you know, to go up in flames and be
insulting in this idea, then let your you know, potentially your
ego take over you. You just can't afford it. Not only is it not, not
the right, potentially not the right thing to do if your egos in
the way, right. But also you it's just not practical. Firstly, you
won't get you'll get there, there'll be consequences. So there
was this, in 2009, in the UK, in a place called Islington here in the
UK, there was this case of this of this
Christian, who is a registrar and was was didn't want to
perform civil civil,
kind of, what do you call it, like, not marriages, but civil
partnerships between same * couples, because of their faith?
Right. And they took it went to court, and it was a whole big
thing. And, and the, and they lost, so they tried to get exempt
because of their beliefs as a Christian, you know, to not not
have to not be forced to perform these several partnerships between
these same * couples, and they lost they weren't able to be
exempted from that. They said, basically, the court said, No,
you've got to do that, by law, you're, you're required to do that
assurance job. And so they leave their job eventually. So it has,
you know, it has real consequences. And sometimes those
consequences have to be accepted, because you're sticking to your
principles likeness in this situation. But if you just can't
do anything about it, you're going to have those consequences. And
sometimes you can actually avoid them by just dialing down and
turning down the shouting and the ego and the the kind of almost it
comes across in a real lack of compassion. And it's not a myth.
It's not a it's not by accident, that the most common names most
frequent names that Allah describes himself by the Quran,
right. Rahman and Rahim that were meant to be that's meant to be
important to us, right? So it's meant to be at the heart of our of
our deen so so if we're if we can strike that balance of being
uncompromising on the one hand, and clear about our views, but
still compassionate and have genuine and sincere Dawa in the
forefront of our minds, then we can I think that's the venue onto
onto onto, then the year, we would say that I say, normally just hit
us up to sunnah, which is now you hit the target of the Sunnah. And
all you have to look at is belief. There is nothing, you know, worse
for people to have done, than to mock the prophet to, you know,
spit on him throw stones at him hurl, you know, curse, curse him.
And what did he do? He was thinking for their innocence,
right? Their children, like maybe guidance will come to their
children. Whereas he had the opportunity, as we know, that
angel came down and said, I'm the angel in charge of these
mountains. And Allah has informed me that I will push these
mountains and destroy the city on them, right? Push the mountains on
them, kill them all. And the prophets I send them said, No, I
hope that their children, you know, will say let ilaha illAllah
Muhammad Rasool Allah so that element of compassion is, if you
notice, they themselves did become Muslim, their chiefs became
Muslim, afterwards. And those very chiefs that were involved in that
incident, you know, about more than a decade later, they enter
into Islam. And so it's not just the second generation, but the
sinner as well. That you know, and if then I have to say something,
the people who flip out, they're not the enemy here, right? Because
at the same time, it is a reaction that is, you know, to something
bad. And you could you might be inaccurate, and you don't
represent the Sunnah. That's very different from saying that you're
the enemy. You're worthy of being mocked. You're terrible. You're
the reason
No, but it is worthy of saying this is not the Sunnah. Right? And
I had done it several times and flipped out on people in the past
and realized, how do I represent the prophet like this? Right. And
I feel terrible afterwards for days, and I have to make it up.
Yeah. Right. And
I think you were referencing some of these marches, where, you know,
sometimes I think it maybe got out of hand or something where, I
guess people were, they were emotional about it, right? They
were really, really upset about the situation. And but I think,
though, that you are correct 100% In, in this issue, where
if we don't fully embrace this on all of it, then we can't really
say that we're 100% a Hijjah, you know, against the people, you
know, and what I mean by that Hoja is, when when are people
considered guilty in the sight of Allah, they're considered guilty?
When the message has come to them? With no.
Yeah, with no external matters, that could cause a person to
justifiably say no, thank you, right? And what's an example that
an example of this is when a person
if a person was to come to you as a complete stranger, and tell you
this is XYZ is is not right? Or you have to do a law or let's say,
you gotta go and say level? Um hum. Rasulullah. Even for us, that
is not a Dawa. You're not obligated to listen to strangers
in Islam. We don't have a Muslim who comes to us and says, the
prophet size a random Muslim, I don't know him, said prophesy
centum said, at this time at this hour, you must pray such a Raka.
Right.
I would say to him, you know, I don't even know who you are. I'm
not accepting anything you have to say. And I'm not obligated,
really, you know, whether or not I'm obligated to investigate it.
You know, that's different, right? But I don't know who you are. I'm
not. So I'm not responsible. In that regard. Right. If I have, for
example, a knowledge that a certain food is a restaurant is
how that absolute stranger comes up to me says not Hello. So I have
certainty from the owner that it's headed who I know, and he prays
with us in the masjid. And a complete stranger tells us not
have that, I don't even have to investigate that. Right? Your word
as a complete stranger is zero. So that's what I mean by an external
factor that would justify for people to reject the message. So
if I come with whether it's my neffs, or my undisciplined self,
or
a half sunnah, I'm coming with the obligation, but I'm not fulfilling
it in the way in which the prophet would have done things. Right.
At that point, we are giving an excuse for people not to accept
our message, and excuse which may or may not stand in front of
Allah. Right. But it's definitely an excuse. You know, if someone
comes and says, Oh, these people are insane, all right, shouting
and screaming their heads off like that, right? Yeah, maybe we are
guilty of, of giving them you know, so I want to say that while
at the same time saying those people flipping out, I can't say
that they're the enemy, I simply say and they're not worthy of
being mocked. I believe they're worthy of being praised. Because
they still care about Allah, and they care about the messenger. But
I don't see that they fulfill the Sunnah. And that's a problem. It
is a problem to have not fulfilled the Sunnah. And we have to think
about this, that there's multiple dimensions here.
And this dimension of the onlookers and those who are raised
in in something
they have to be taken care of, in the sense of they have to be we
have to be considerate of them and what they have to say. Yeah, and I
think there's another aspect to this. I was recently thinking of
driving lessons, I got to them really late. But my driving
instructor
he on the first lesson, he told me, it came out we were talking
about he started talking about Catholicism, somebody and then we
started chatting, and then he admitted it to me that he Oh, he
let me know rather that his his son had committed suicide, right?
And since then, this is a really chatty, really nice guy. Really,
we get on really well. But every lesson since then, I've noticed
it's palpable in the air is grief. Like constantly. Like there's no
like, I don't know what like I don't know how you deal with that
as a parent, but it's literally like we'll make a joke and he'll
be really just fine with me just talking to you. But you can still
see it you can still feel it almost coming from it. But it just
is unrelenting his his grief. And I'm thinking sat here thinking oh,
Que there's 100% a right to get angry for the sake of Islam. You
know, that's a part of our deen. But maybe some of us should should
think, you know, on this issue, when there's when there's such
high suicide rates, when the when the when it's affecting, you know,
amongst transgender people etc. Even it's skyrocketing,
skyrocketing through the roof, when there are kids of people of
same *, you know, where they've got sick parents at home sensing
gender parents at home, when it's so sensitive nowadays, when it's
changed when it's become so extreme, the and it's moving. So
first tried in the last five years, the last 10 years, the
conversation has moved radically and rapidly in, in a one in one
big progressive with a capital P direction. Right? So it's just
getting even even worse, even more than that in going more in that
direction. Yeah, how can we how can we, you know, afford for, you
know, to be taking kind of like to even potentially letting our ego
get in the way in these conversations and, and kind of,
you know, it's a big and it's happened way too much. So for
example, in in this, you know, BBC coverage of this burning thing,
they leaked, if they found a group chat, these Muslim parents who
were protesting were on on some social media platform. And the BBC
found got access to this group chat. And they leaked the messages
on on on their channel. Or either they expose the messages, and they
were messages along the lines of and I'm quoting here, Muslim
balancing things like I'm totally against any type of gays and
lesbians. So what is this dunya coming to dirty, filthy excuse for
a human etc, etc. And the BBC got ahold of these, and it was on
national news. And bearing in mind that the majority of people
consider this an issue like racism, they see homophobia, like,
like racism, that's only like, so many people feel. And bear in mind
that Muslims are completely on the other side of this, like, this is
like, we can't accept a lot of this stuff, most of this stuff,
outright 100% without compromising on our D. So we've got to, we've
got to, we've got to be a bit smarter about this, right, we got
to be a bit compassionate, a bit smart and deal with it in a way
that, that we recognize that people are really hurting, there's
a lot of confusion, both among, you know, transgender people, etc,
suicide rates, all this kind of stuff, but also even potentially,
within our own community, how many of our youth who maybe have, you
know, who haven't had that proper guidance, you know, maybe
necessarily at home, you know, in terms of their Deen in terms of
navigating these issues, who have been exposed to it at school, who
don't have a great education at home, etc, etc. How many of them
are feeling like a cognitive dissonance and an internal, you
know, spiritual disaster right inside because they think, Oh, my
goodness, I'm Muslim, I'm attracted to this other boy in
school, how, you know, what, I've got no clarity from from home, my
parents don't really talk about any of these kinds of issues. The
whole the whole, you know, onslaught from the secular, you
know, agenda is just, it's just, it's just this complete narrative,
right? Where, where it's, which is almost unbreakable. You know,
when we talked on, on Zoom before, we mentioned the idea of it being
on this blast from us, right? The progressive religion to step out
of line in terms of their social beliefs. Right. And so how does
that Muslim youth who hasn't got the guidance? How does he navigate
that issue for himself, and that's, and that's actually
something that we discussed last Wednesday that I thought was
really helpful, you know, the idea that in, in a, Sam, throughout
throughout our history that they, they, they were, they were quite
comfortable often discussing this, and they kind of, they didn't kind
of dramatize it as much as as much as we do. So for example, there
was this idea of Yeah, okay, maybe if a guy is feeling attracted to
another guy or whatever, then that's, you know, pretty, pretty
normal, in a sense, okay, maybe they got a bit confused or
whatever, but maybe they're just, you know, attracted to the
feminine beauty of a boy, right, you know, in school or something.
And that, that I found was really helpful and research for this for
this issue, because it kind of de dramatize the issue, brought it
back to thinking, Okay, what is how can we, how can we, you know,
say, look, you're not, you know, because we're accepting their dog,
the LGBT dog, we're accepting we've internalized it as
customers, we've accepted it, you know, which is a bad bad move,
because then we say, right, that little that boy, that Muslim guy
is confused. He's thinking, Okay, I'm gay. I have to be in this
whole different category of people like that. That's what they've
done the LGBT Yeah. They're split into categories, right. So if you
feel
So you feel an attraction, this idea that maybe you're recognizing
that, that female beauty and one of your, you know, boys in your
school or something and you feel attractive, oh, suddenly, you're
in a whole nother category, or you've got this label of bias. And
as Muslims, we got to reject that. No, you don't have this whole
other label as you're not this different type of human. You're
like all of us, we may, you know, maybe maybe I get maybe on my
advantage shoulder and I'm, you know, maybe have the issue or the
struggle where I am attracted to, you know, some some lady from from
work, who's not my wife, you know, the same sort of thing, in a
sense, you know, you've got to be just like, the message has to be
to the Muslim boy who's struggling himself with these internal
issues, that there is, there's a clear path to this in Islam, and
you're not, we're not going to accept the dogma from the LGBT, we
have our own indigenous way of understanding this in Islam.
Right. And it's a lot clearer actually.
You tied into a lot of a lot of clear points you were talking to
you about, I think you said a Catholic,
you know, person who has son committed suicide over this issue.
He wasn't a Catholic. Actually, he was he's an atheist. He's been put
off by religion, okay. Because because of the Catholic priests,
who told him that his son's going to have a funeral, which was any
it was, the reason I brought that up is because we hear a lot about
transgender suicide rates, through the roof. But I've never met
somebody. This was the first time I met somebody who's who's had a
personal experience with suicide, right? This guy's son committed
suicide. And as I was saying, the grief on him was just permanent,
like you could it's palpable. You can see it with him. It's there in
the constantly with him. And it destroys people's lives these
things. So So I guess what I was getting at there is that as
Muslims, even though we can't compromise at all, it's out of the
question. It wouldn't be helpful to anybody to be damaging to
anybody if we started compromising on on our Quranic on a on a, you
know, Islamic just position, clear position. And we still have to
treat it with the utmost tenderness in some situations and
care and compassion. Because because, you know, there are
horror stories like this, right? Where a guy loses his his son to
suicide, and it's his whole world just comes crashing down. Yeah, so
we ended up having
to navigate so many things that this is not checkers anymore. This
is a game of chess, right? It's not a game of checkers anymore,
where it's just a simple, you know, binary, you know, not to use
the no pun intended, but it's not a simple binary world that we live
in, like the olden days, you know, where you could afford to do that,
because we're dealing now with people who have so many different
sensitivities. So we have to use our words, our language, our
sarcasm, and our emotion very wisely, or else we'll end up
becoming like a bull in a china store. Right? Where
Tao was for sophistic, the more the privatize Saddam said, the
situation will come upon you. It used to be whole Holly movie, Hi,
Ron, that the Haleem, who is very cool, calm, collected and very
intelligent. Hidden does not just mean calm and slow to anger, it
also means very intelligent, mean slow to anger, because they're
very intelligent, right? He becomes bewildered by the amount
of factors that come into play here, right, and how, you know,
language and words have, whether we like it or not, they've become
triggers to people. And, and that our message is not as simple one
of just closing people out the messages. And by the way, that's
not even going to work. Because like you said, our own youth
are have cognitive dissonance, right? On the issue, they've
probably most, in most cases, I'd say, 90% of the cases, whatever
messaging from Hollywood stars, from YouTube, from TV, from
politics, from school, from friends, has reached them before
religious teaching has reached them.
Almost always, they've, we've been beaten. We don't have the manpower
to fight this fight, right? We can't reach everybody. We don't
have the, you know, the,
you know, other factors of whether it's entertainment or otherwise,
of marketing power, you know, that the other side has, and so they've
internalized these things. And you have to undo 25 You know, false
presumptions or false assumptions before you even broach the topic.
Right? And so, that's where it's needed this concept of that's why
I remember in our initial discussion, I think it was with
you, when I said that the real solution the only solution that I
find is prolong
Sahaba with people, you know, of learning, you know, people of
learning so that you could, their, the levels of their like the onion
will be come off one at a time and you can start seeing what this
message of Islam has done to them. And what this followership of the
Sunnah, has given them in their life, where you see, year after
year, year after year, year after year, that this person
is stable,
trustworthy, and then their slip up is seen in light of that. Now,
I actually have something where, you know, I usually don't talk
about my personal situation, but I, I coach in a league, I've been
part of the league as a parent, as an assistant coach, as a full time
coach, right for a certain sports league. And so, you know, week
after week, after week after week, every year, I see the same group
of people pretty much, right. We don't talk like hi, and bye, and
that's it. But, you know, sometimes we do chit chat when I
was assistant when I was a head coach.
There was a moment where I completely got so flabbergasted by
an official referee. And I really just got so upset at him, right? I
got so angry with him. Right? And
in the context of it, I felt so terrible afterwards, right? And
I'm like, Oh my gosh, these people, like they might not know
me, but they discover that you work in the masjid. They're gonna
think, you know, what was that? Yeah. So, you know, like, 50% of
the people there know me maybe 50%, though. So I actually had to,
I felt for a whole week just so terrible, right. By the way, I was
right. The league contacted me, and told me that I was right.
Right. They contacted me and not to apologize, per se, but sort of
to apologize to tell me that I was right. Like the call was beyond
terrible, right. But they just said, We just hope that you
realize that the kid there, the referees young kid and everything
like that. I said, Not only that, do I realize that I regret the
whole thing, right? Yeah, I went out of my way. And I, you know,
went out and got him a gift.
Whatever. And my son was like, why is this didn't have to do that
much, right? I said, No, no, you know, we have to make that. I
believe Rasulullah has impression
maybe, at this moment, because if they look at you, and they look at
you know, and they say, Oh, you're the person in the mosque.
And it's gonna be very different than if my name was just Abdullah.
Someone so and I'm an engineer, right? So I said, No, I, I really
care about making a positive impression. And I upset this.
Yeah, I upset this guy once.
And I went and made sure that he was happy a couple times
afterwards, right, like, just by interactions, and I give him a
gift. It's the same idea here where we have to look at, we have
to have a samba with we want Muslims to the only way to really
give a Tao is a long term Saba within it with Muslim youth, for
example, where they see you in so many different spheres of life,
that they really know you inside out. Right? And some people ask
me, like, why do you do these things with the youth and you go
out and jeans and you go to the city? And you know, is that? What
the fuck? Do? I said, Look, I'm dealing with the reality that's in
front of my face, right? I don't have time to try to make a
reputation for myself, have a shake, and have like, I never
changed out of my job.
I just can't afford to do that right now. I have to be on the
ground. Right? And, and you got to avoid the disasters before you
produce something, you know, pretty right. So we've done enough
acid, avoiding hardships Kubla. But it comes as prioritize over
gentlemen Manasa. So yeah, it's wonderful to have in the
community, a chef who is always wearing the job, who only speaks
with Allah Sena, his messenger said, and you only see him in the
Deus and he worships Allah so well, you know that the * is
coming off his face. That's really good. But who is it good for only
the one who has been trained to care. That's such an important
point. Because, as she sort of knew, that I'm really sympathetic
to actually that is that in terms of your Dawa, as minorities as
Muslim minority living in the UK, one of them kind of a really
effective way that I found is actually shedding clothes that are
not that are not indigenous to the place that you aren't. So there is
a way to
To actually be, it's a little bit off topic, but it's actually
related in an important way, you know, wearing clothes that are
indigenous, for example, me to the UK that are local and that I
recognize that is still,
you know, meeting up to the Sharia and requirements, right so that
you know that I'm still 100% Sharia compliant and conforming in
that sense in the principles and, and the rules and regulations in
that in that regard. But, but I'm also in a way, in a way that
connects to, to the guy at school, who I'm talking to, and my little
cousin, who, who's at school in the UK, and who doesn't have, you
know, a whole lot of guidance in his life and who I'm trying to
chat to, in, you know, kind of, and build a relationship and build
a sense of trust is gonna take one look, you know, this guy in a fall
in the middle of February in the UK, when it's snowing outside and
think what is, you know, this guy's Islam just doesn't make any
sense. Yeah, it doesn't take into account the fact that he needs to
be warm in winter, in the in the UK, you know, like, like, like,
you know, things like that. It's actually it's actually quite an
important point. And, and it's an i 100, agree with your point
about, you know, conversations and relationships with people being
the primary and one of the most important, if not the most
important way, in terms of relieving this cognitive
dissonance, right? Yeah. And we're in a, we're in a situation here,
where we're on the front lines, right. And it's like Mike Tyson
said, you know, everyone's got a strategy until you get hit with
the first punch. So when when we're sitting here, you have an
option, you know, one of the local kids in the masjid
is not interested in being reached.
So that you move, like I said earlier, that ideal shake and
everything yet who, who benefits from that only the person who has
been taught to care by their parents or otherwise? All right
now I got in the community in the message of people who do not care,
right? And he's got a whole bunch of ideas in his head that we find
is a problem, it's gonna be a problem for him. Right? It's a
problem. So how am I going to deal with this, and you literally have
to make a decision right now, you can't sit there and make a
dissertation about this, you have to decide within a few weeks to
take action. And sometimes that calls for you to sort of, you
know, do things that a traditional path of a fucky, or a student of
knowledge would not do, right? But but do you have a choice? Right?
Are you just gonna let the kid you can't communicate with people the
way you want to? Yeah, because you lose? In other words, exactly. You
have to communicate to people the way they can receive the
communication, right in in a way that they can receive it. So
younger people, they don't have the maturity or experience yet to
realize that, you know, I could, you know, I have to respect this
person's position, they just don't have that. It's not like, I mean,
I could bring a doctor from,
or an engineer or a banker or whatever, from my neighbors and
say, Hey, listen, I'd like for you to listen to this lecture. And
he'd be mature enough to say, Okay, no problem, I come and
listen to it. And he appreciates that. And he recognizes that the
person in front the scholar in front of me, May, he dresses
differently, he speaks a different language, but his logic, you know,
according to, you know, his logic of his speech shows clearly he's
educated. And so he can respect that. You know, and he could
separate in his mind, okay, his language, his accent, his clothes
is one issue. His points are another issue. All right, that's
really nice. But that's not humanity. That's a sliver of
people. So it's where I say that we have to, we have no choice. But
to take into account, the sensitivities that you mentioned,
the fact that that issue, this issue of of luat, and coma, Lutz
and all this other stuff is intertwined. Into now the family
lives, family memories, like you said, suicides, all sorts of
emotional traumas, your parent of a suicide. You know, that's an
emotional trauma. There's nothing less than a trauma, right? I don't
overuse the word trauma, but how many people have experienced that
point 00 1% of the population. So it's a trauma for sure. Because
it's a terrible experience that very few people go through in
life.
And that's where we have to become extremely
yes sensitive. And I am the I'm actually very difficult. It's very
hard for me to be sensitive to be honest with you. It's not my
forte, I'm not a caregiver, or you know, a
sensitive type is just not my nature.
But seeing that there are minds, minds like mi NES that could blow
up in your face, seeing that the Messenger of Allah Azra how people
think of Islam and the Prophet is at stake. I have to and if some
people who are young and maybe, maybe immature, I think they're
too mature and or maybe inclined to extremes, and they want to see
blood. They won't like, but that's something that we have to make
them like, right? No one, it shouldn't be something
controversial, because we're not we're not the thing is that you're
not nobody's calling. And the people who are on the fringes,
nobody mentioned is calling for anything that is against the
Sharia, or put or like pushing the bounds of Islam. In fact, it's the
opposite, right? People are calling us to remain firmly and
uncompromisingly within the bounds of Islam, and embody that most
beautiful or try increasingly to embody that most beautiful thing,
which is the soft heart in this Yeah, right, that the photon is
embody, and, you know, the key to the transformation that happened,
you know, 1400 and what what is it that 14 142 years ago, is, is is
is one that that was, you know, because of the overwhelming beauty
and, and, and, and
overwhelmingness of the Quran itself as a miracle, and because
of the overwhelming beauty and soft heartedness and just, you
know, compassion and kindness of the professors and and that can
sometimes be manifest in being firm and being uncompromising on
issue, but it often can be in manifest manifests in the feminine
compromising. I don't think it should not be compassionately.
What should always always be compassionate and sincere? Yeah,
and I don't think that a person who can neither can cannot balance
both is strong.
Some something is weak about the person. And by the way, being weak
is not a crime. You know, being weak is not a crime. It's
something you have to fix, but it's not a crime. So, oftentimes,
if I'm tempted to something, and you're tempting me,
and I'm weak on this matter, right, what am I How am I going to
react with a great amount of aggression towards you? Because
you're actually getting me right. And I'm about to fall for your
temptation. But if someone's strong, okay, then it's quite easy
for them to remain compassionate.
While you know, resisting, and that's where, you know, it's funny
that the Bush Republicans, they said compassionate conservatism,
right. I mean, we're not going to take their slogan, but it's
interesting. I mean, they came across the same thing.
Yeah, they came across the same idea because that Republican
Party, I don't know if they I don't think they have the same.
You know, they're exactly clear on it today. But the Republican Party
was complete traditional marriage. Right. And, but they needed to the
marketing of it was that if you're against this, you're mean, you're
insensitive, and then they go and sort of brilliantly in a sense,
like deviously, I should say, linking it to what the things that
you just said, like suicide. Oh, so you're against this. Okay. So
you're just so what about the suicides? It's like, I have any,
like, my religion has anything to do with that. Right? Is that what
I said? It's completely and I have this clip here, where she did this
to the poor. Mmm. You know, let me actually find this clip. You know,
let me play this clip. What about gay lesbian rights and equality?
This is purely about proselytizing,
homosexual way of life. It's interesting that you use that word
proselytizing. You've also said that this is about indoctrination
and recruitment. Do you think children can be recruited to be
gay? Well, you can condition them to accept this as being a normal
way of life. And it makes the children more promiscuous as they
grow old. So you think that by being taught these lessons
children will possibly become more promiscuous? Absolutely, yes. And
potentially gay when they wouldn't have been before? Well, I mean,
whether they become gay or not, but they can send me anything to
gay relationships. So there is you know, the first misunderstanding
from this reporter. Where she says she she imagines that the issue is
are is a person's feelings about attraction.
People are tend to be surprised that that's the last of concern.
You're not sinful for your attraction. It's a big problem for
you. Because your parents expect you to get married. Right
then you, you have an issue, I'm not saying you'd have a problem,
your your life will not be the same if you're not attracted to
women and you're attracted to men or vice versa.
But that's in religion in Islam, that's not the issue. Allah
Himself does not judge a person on who they are attracted to. Right?
And he tries to, I think, explain that by saying that it's about
what they believe. So let's listen on here. We're happy to live with
them together with them with with mutual respect and tolerance. But
that's not what they want. How can it be tolerant, when you believe
that they are trying to convert children to be gay? If you believe
that's a possibility? If you tell them they're like, their lifestyle
is morally wrong? How can you coexist in tolerance? We, you
know, if someone who doesn't believe in my morals, I don't
consider them Islamophobic. You can still live with mutual respect
and tolerance. But this is more than that. It's like they they
want to convert you they want to convert your morality. And that's
just wrong. Okay, so so he did answer the question. He said, It's
not about them behaving as homosexuals, or sorry, becoming,
you know, homosexual in their attraction. It's about believing
that this is step five, and Okay. Act, right. And that's the whole
point. And that, you know, there's no way that a Muslim whatever
budge on that. You see how it sort of was twisted up further for the
men there? And he did answer it properly, where it was sort of
twisted as and it does sound ridiculous. Oh, you think that
just by learning a lesson that kid is going to change?
Well, no, that's not our point. Our point is an issue of belief.
Right?
And that's where the discourse on this at some point, there's
sometimes you have to say, look, we have our beliefs at the end of
the day. And, you know, you might differ with that, but that's fine.
And that attitude. It's true. It gets the point across, it's not an
exclamation point. Right. However, it doesn't affect it. There's no
negative there. If someone's looking onto that, let's say your
friend who was or your your classmate, I should say that.
You know, her mom, she has two moms, that she's okay. Well,
that's his belief, and he's not budging from that. But if I will
say, Look, this is what we believe that's it, you take your
disgusting thing and leave. And I don't care whether you like it or
not. At that point, what kind of reaction is, is that? No, exactly.
It's the way you frame it, the way you framed it, the way you talk
about things, and some people are going to be are going to react
badly. They're gonna react badly, even if you say it in the most
clear, but compassionate way, they'll still react badly, they'll
still go like, Oh, my goodness, you know, that's so homophobic.
How, you know, this is the way people you know, how can you you
know, it's just so unethical, and they'll just have this
condescending tone. You know, it'll be ridiculous for them. And
you can't change we can't change those because they can't control
their reaction. They're going to reject the truth sometimes that
that happened. 100% you cannot please everyone is not our goal to
please everyone. And but it should not be because it's our fault.
Nobody hated the Prophet slice on them, because of something the
Prophet did. Right? And Allah even tells us it's because the big law
he hadn't, it's because of Allah, the truth is what they hate. They
never the prophesy said I've never gave them an ammunition to hate
him or to mock him or to hate Islam or make KUVO because of him,
we're doing that unfortunately, we're actually too often falling
into the trap, where we are giving people ammunition based on the way
that we react to something based on our characters not accurately
being a mirror in some small way for the protagonists of Sam's
character we're not doing that at all in you know, often in these
discussions and and you're going to put people off you know, non
Muslims who deserve to have a well balanced hour give it but you're
also going to push your own youth into the arms of the people who
are who are so accepting of everything in you know, anything,
right. But by being fight by letting your character
you know, your ego kind of kind of making it make you into a shouting
kind of aggressive person. People are, you're gonna increase the
confusion for your own Muslim kids who are sewer who are confused by
this and you need clarity on this. They don't need to be told that
there are unnatural and there are different kinds of people that
that this is ridiculous. They need to be they need to be sat down and
talked to as people and they need to be told. Look at
We're talking about the nature of attraction here, we're talking
about the nature of beauty. This is Highlands haram. And now let's
talk about, about about about, you know, these deeper things and you
know, have a conversation with them, that's not going to push
them into into the arms of the people who are saying, you know,
they're all backwards, come here and live and live, what you and
what you want to live then you
dealt with in a certain way. That is, it is it is clever. And that
is, and it is not just clever, but in a sinister way. Not at all, but
like, smart but but since it you know, that you're trying to
genuinely bring healing and peace to this.
Yeah, and not only not only that, it's exactly like you said, there
are two camps. And I think you sent me like a blurb here. Like
there are two camps here.
When it comes to this, there's one that's all music videos. And it's
fun. And it's popular, it's fashion. And it's now in the NBA.
It's in sports. It's in everything. Okay, there's that.
And then there's the little local neighborhood masjid, and a few
Muslims on the internet. Right? And maybe my family and my grandma
or grandpa or whatever there is that now,
again, is this is not about it doesn't have to have theory, this
is something that's what we call an Arabic, Walker, which is the
the affair that's right in front of your face, right, it has
descended upon you. And that's the choice. So any choice that would
cut any action that would cause a person you know, non sanction from
Allah and His messenger that would cause a person to go into the
wrong path, then we are the fitna, because the prophets I seldom got
upset with a companion, more either been Jabin, who out of His
love and zeal with for the Quran. And Islam used to recite he used
to pray with the roadside Salam in the city in Medina, then go out
back to his where he lived, and his community in the farmland in
the which is a little further out. And they used to pray and then
pray with them. And you pray a long prayer.
Right? And if Nam me Bacara and the Sahaba, the Sahaba their their
farmers, they have to get up early the next day, they would Salam out
of the prayer. And they would go pray on the side. And they would
go home.
Sit more either Ben Javad was told that they're salami out of the
prayer. They're calling their own karma praying with short sewers
and going home. My child said they won't ethics right now. This man
came to the prophets I send them and complainy said, your student
wive like you know he's closer to the Prophet Maya is accusing me of
novac and prophets mawatha How could this be? He said, he said
lambs out of the prayer. He wants to pray a small quick prayer. And
Allah says in the Quran, last Quran Allah Allah kalila right
they don't remit remember Allah except very little. So he doesn't
like to hear the Quran. And he rather say small suitors and go
home. The prophets I seldom told him shorten the prayer and but he
first said, effort done and am or are you someone who's causing
fitna in people's Deen? Right. You're causing them a fitna. And
so the province I sell them then said to him, short in the prayer,
because there's the worker, there's the week there's the
elder, there's the sick, etc. Right. And so this is a serious
issue, because it angered the Prophet sighs
You know, it angered the province is on. And so as we, as I said,
those people who are flipping out, they're not the enemy. And you
know, we have this whole clip here, that I only showed portion
of it, but they're not our enemy. But it's not it does have this is
a game of chess. Now. It's not a game of checkers, there's a lot of
factors involved. And there are choices we have are not great
choices. The choice of okay, fine. I mean, I'll just do not if we do
nothing to to act upon this and to take it seriously. These the
youth, you know, that we deal with in the massage it in our families
and your friends circles, they will just go that other route.
Right. And the default No, the default, they don't have to
actively go that route. The default of what a human being
today in the world today. And I would actually venture to say the
world not America, not in the world is a great sympathy for comb
Lutz is at least I are a cringe feeling of any words that would go
against Komodos. Right. And as I said earlier, and I said in other
places, the position the position of Muslims is not just that we
don't support something it is to be against something right and he
cannot miss
You know, sort of cut that language out of our platform. You
know, if we had a Muslim platform supporting certain things, you
know, not just, it will be absent from our list. No, we are against
it. We would like to see zero of it happened. Like, what's our
position on alcohol? Muslims are against selling and drinking
alcohol? No, we are for you know that nobody drinks out. Not that
we don't want to drink alcohol. We hope to see nobody gets
intoxicated ever again. That alcohol possession really
interesting. Because what what how do we frame it as Muslims when
we're talking about alcohol? You know, there's about there's almost
like, you know, if you guys know about the NHS here in the UK, it's
a national health service. There's about almost 10% of referrals to
the NHS national service in the UK, or in some way related to
alcohol. When we talk when I have discussions with my friends about
about alcohol, non Muslims and stuff, we're having these debates
and discussions. And framing it annoying, we frame it in a way
that we're talking about what is what is in people's best interest?
Yeah, what is what is most damaging and hurtful and harmful
to people? You know, and by framing it in those things
sincerely framing it in those times? What is that? What is
actually damaging to people? What's most helpful for them?
What's what's best for them? What will bring them peace, what will
damage them? When you frame it in those terms, you you make it clear
that you're concerned about people you know about about them, you
care for them genuinely. And that's what we need in this
discussion. We need to frame things in a sense, you know, like,
you know, it's that example that you gave that story from the time
of the pocket artists, I found that that was just I was such a
perfect kind of point to draw out from this, you know, for this
issue as well, we need to be talking about about when we're
framing this, this discussion needs to be saying what we're
saying this because it's what's best for you. And it's not what's
least damaged. And this is actually damaging. For for our
society. It's hurting people. It's, it's bringing the awareness
society there's a book, I think, by an American author called
Prozac nation, right? That's the whole nation practically is on
Prozac, depressed, depressed, they're all depressed. The
antidepressant depression rates and anxiety rates, clinical
depression, acute anxiety, it's through the roof. And our age, you
know, people are confused, people are depressed people, people don't
know what's what anymore. We're taught, we're trying to we're
trying to talk here about something that's clear, and
something that brings peace and healing. And we care about people
we don't we don't want to, we don't want to, we don't want to
push them into the, you know, into, into, away from us into into
further hardship and harm. So we need to be framing our discussion
and feel it in our heart in a way that sincerely caring about
people, and what's best for them, what's least what's not going to
actually hurt them and damage them and damage as a society. And when
we start using that that kind of language, then then you'll see
people's hearts open up, some people will still reject it. But
some people's hearts will open up. You know, I guarantee that.
Yeah, and at the very least, when,
at the very, very least, if we're totally rejected, we're not
rejected, because it's our fault. Right? You know, and that's the,
that's the first thing that you have to defend against is that you
are free from blame. Just because a person is doing Dawa. They love
Allah, they love His Messenger, not necessitate that he's free
from blame, right?
You have to do things in the right way. And like you said earlier
here, if a person truly cares about a society, and here we are,
we're in it right? As long as we're in it, we might as well be
invested and do things right. One thing that cannot happen, which
the previous generation, and you can give them a pass for it, if
they were immigrants, I don't know if your parents are all
immigrants, but mine were right. But there is a limitation on how
much how involved they can be in society just for the sake of
culture, right? Many of them also had like a care less thing like
you guys, I mean, we hate you guys. Right? You look what you
guys did to us, right? But that's a total cognitive dissonance and
my point, because we're like, why are you here? Okay.
Why would you, you're, you're just in complete cognitive dissonance.
Or at the very least, there was this attitude of like, you know,
we don't we don't really care about what's going on. But if
we're truly having this attitude, that these are the creation of
Allah, that we would hope that guidance comes to them. That's
what we want, then that compassion should be be visible in many other
spheres of society. It's not just this one issue that you'll be
harping on, right? You would be involved in an hunger crisis.
You'd be involved in many other things. No, a person can't be in
the eye 1000 things at once, right. But you can be in at least
one province. I set them said, you know, tell people about me, even
if it's just one area
That applies to everything else. In other words, like, for example,
you know, you can't advocate or, you know, do relief work in every
single crisis. But you can have one at least, don't get shut out.
Don't be a zero Don't be a goose egg, right? At least
someone in society should testify that yeah, these guys, they come
around and they help out. Right. And then, you know, that changes
discussions as well, that guy that I was talking to you about from
from this interface in session clubbers school? One of the
reasons we were on good terms prior to that discussion, and
continue to be afterwards was because of, you know, a big part
of those discussions in other sessions. Not Not, not this one,
was, we were talking about the environment and environmentalism.
And, you know, she was she was a vegan, and she cared a lot about
the environment. And I was, and I brought a lot to this discussion
in terms of the site viewpoint on this, right. So I actually think
that people are insecure about about a lot of these kinds of
things when they're coming at it from a Muslim perspective. But I
took the exact opposite position and decided that no, Islam has the
most offer on this, on this on this topic. It's not just that,
you know, there's a big environmental movement going on at
the moment, and you hear a lot of, there's going to be nothing left
for our grandchildren. And I'm thinking, well, as a Muslim, it's
not that's not what it's about. It's about it's about the idea of
Allah in nature. You know, the beauty You know, there's a reason
that the Quran bangs are not
disrespectful to say that but but repeats like an emphasize again
and again and again, it's interwoven with with its spirit,
right, the the idea of Allah and others is in nature, right, the
beauty illustration respecting, protecting the those first signs.
Yeah, so I brought that to the discussion on those on those
topics when we discuss those. And you know, what I found I found
that she, these people, respect I went on a march on
environmentalism March that we had in the UK here, with all my
schools with all my schoolmates. And this individual that I'm
talking about this girl, who was brought up by to two months, she
held up my poster and my on this March, which had an idea from the
Quran on it, about about thing, you know, what does that tell you
about the potential for these discussions? You know, when the
daughter of two, you know, she's got two moms at home, who raised
her can hold above her head, a poster with an A, from the Quran
on it? Yeah. Because you've made that, that, that, that, that, um,
you know, that connection on it, you know, you've you've, you've
said, you've branched out exactly like you were saying, on different
issues, you can people can see that you're a person who's, who's,
who cares about, about about the world about other issues about
homelessness and others about that, and you're sincere in those
beliefs. It's not just, you know, for identity purposes, you know,
because you're so woke, because you're, you're young, you're this,
you know, your religion, your whole way of life is inspiring you
to do this thing. Well, then you can have a holistic discussion
also about this issue about same * attraction, you can give your
views in a respectful, compassionate, but clear,
uncompromising way, and you know, what, people people are not going
to, they're not going to, you know, bite your head off about it
actually, a lot of the time, sometimes they will, but but a lot
of the time, they, they won't, and you'll have a really productive
discussion on it. Yeah, well,
it can't be for marketing purposes, you can't be fake. And
that's why I said that.
Its truth comes out over years and decades. Like the truth of reality
of a person comes out over years and decades, because that's where
it loss is not just tested by it tested by a lot of things if loss
or sincerity, is tested by many different things.
But the last test of IQ loss is the test of time, where nothing
happens, neither good nor bad for years and decades. And that's
really what tests a person's IQ loss. Right? A mom and her dad was
once asked, you know, you know, what is the reaction to a day? He
said that, you know, could be a reaction of people follow him,
people hate him. Right? But he said, in most cases, no, no,
there'll be no reaction. And that's actually a test of Atlas.
And so that's where I believe that
regardless of what people think now that your position is not
extreme enough, it's not crazy enough. It's not loud enough.
There's not enough exclamation points and flipping out. Others
will think, Well, your belief is so homophobic so this, that and
the other and they put whatever terms on it, right? Regardless of
those, let's talk after years and decades, let years and decades
pass and let's see the result. You know, let
See which community
number one remains stable in itself. Number two, maintain the
was able to transmit its its religion to its kids and to its
community, and who fizzled out, or found that to be so extreme, they
went to the opposite extreme, only time will tell. So let's wait,
let's let's each one go their own path. And let's see what happens.
And then when people see the body of work, right, you know, this
phrase body of work, they oftentimes their opinion will
change. And guess what, here's the thing, if even if it doesn't
change, it's the right way to do things.
And you're not doing it to change exactly as you said, you're not
doing it to change as some kind of strategic marketing way. You'd
that's not what that was about, you're not trying to manipulate
people. And obviously, it's you've got to protect your image, the
Prime Minister's son took that into account at times, we see that
in this era, you have to be aware of, of your image as a community,
that's, that's, you know, it can't be naive about that. But but the
primary goal, the primary motivator, is not is not is not
You're not looking seeking to be, you know, to advertise yourself
and market yourself in a particular way, in a very clever
scheme, you know, it's coming for it should come from a place of
sincerity that all of these people are Benny Adams, and we have an
they are entitled to a degree of dignity and respect from us as
Muslims, in that we're seeking to first of course, fix our own
community address that that little boy who's or teenager, right,
Muslim, Muslim, Muslim guy, or girl who's, who's got living or
cognitive business doesn't confuse themselves. But you know, we've
got to address those things alongside of that, but also, but
also anyone else. And everyone, you know, that they're both the
same issue that that way within our community or that boy who's
anonymous. Yeah, they're both they're both they're both people
with with souls who need healing in their lives who need who need
that the peace and in their life. And that's, that's the objective
to bring healing to people's lives, not to, not to, you know,
to bring them onto your team, you know, like, like, win them over
onto into your camp. Like, we're not trying to, we're not trying to
win people over in a sense that like, oh, come and join me. You
know, that's what cults do. Yeah. But it is not a cult. Some is some
is so another cult SAMSA is interested in questions of truth,
and meaning, and that's what that's the discussion we're trying
to have with people, and you're only only going to meet your need
gonna affect people's eyes in a good way, in our context of, you
know, 21st century, you know, with things getting as crazy as they
are only going to you only going to bring people in, if you can
have that compassion, and that sincerity and, you know, humility
to, you know, to not not shouting their face, into the, into the
arms of, you know, the second way of life. Yeah, so, you like, as
you're saying here, that as time goes on, something, things gotta
get more and more refined. They gotta get improved. And, and the,
the scene is always changing, right? And that's what it is this,
it's the scene that's changing. But our essence has can never
change our teaching and our belief, it will never change
Simple as that our approach may need to be adjusted. Right? And
that adjustment must have a basis in the book and the Sunnah. And
nothing in commanding right and forbidding wrong, or in teaching
the dean or what have you.
It makes any statement that requires us to be you know,
mocking, insulting, et cetera. Was there ever a time where there's
mockery in Islam? Yeah, there is. And it's judged, right? There's a
judgement of when it's not an absolute, you know, you don't
absolute there is time where there's mockery in Islam and there
are times when the Quran mock something, or were the prophets I
send them created a name for wujud. Right. As a mockery. Ebola
is the name of mockery. So mockery, sarcasm, these things do
have a place but what kind of matter is it's a muscle health
type of matter. When your community like look at when the
prophets I send them all of those monikers and those nicknames for
people came about
came about when they were in a weak position. Right and needed to
instill some some confidence. Right, and
you know, and that they were truly being oppressed badly. Alright,
we're in a different position. Are we weak? Yes, we're in a weak
position. Are we being oppressed badly? Well, yeah.
I can't really say we're being oppressed, right? This is a game
of, you know, you know, temptation and persuasion, they're trying to
convince your minds. But in the end of the day, my point is that
the utilization of these strategies of making fun of
something of mocking it, okay? It's all about muscle Ha, it's not
absolute. There's a time if you see that it can work all right,
then you may apply it right and if a person sees that no, this is not
going to work. This is in fact the totally wrong. It's it has
negative consequences. It's gonna be the opposite going to be the
opposite. Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said set to the
Sahaba academics coming so do not say anything bad about Abuja had
anymore. Right.
And, by the way, the name the transformation of the name will
have come to Abuja Hill is not just from the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wa salam
you know, mocking him, there's actually an element of truth to
that. He's actually saying the truth because if his name was I
would hack him. The, the man of the wise men basically. And the
province I sent him changes to the, you know, the ignorant man,
the man, the one of ignorance, right, it's Eboo does not always
mean father of it could just mean possession, right in Arabic. So
same with Sahib. Sahib doesn't always mean friend, it could mean
you keep her over the possessor of. And so,
you know, the prophet sites actually clarifying truth here
that he's not a man of wisdom at all, because that's a misleading
name. And we're not going to refer to him with that name, we're going
to refer to him with his true name, which is the one of
ignorance. But in any event, if someone was to say, Oh, hold on,
the religion is filled with mockery.
And there is a time to do this and to annoy your enemy. Yes, I 100%
agree. And I've though, because I'm the one who said this, you
know, Claire, I said that relieved to annoy your enemy does have a
place in Islam, because it makes them not think straight. And when
they don't think straight, they don't succeed. Right? It gets them
emotional and riled up. However, there's a time and a place for
everything. And if something would backfire against you, then you
don't employ it. And I'm telling you, it doesn't take any common
sense that when you're dealing with, like a lot of Muslim youth,
let alone non Muslim youth, and a lot of innocent people who didn't
do anything wrong to deserve that.
It's going to backfire. And you're going to just let people go to the
other side, they're going to find
you to be an easy excuse. If I was 5050 on the fence. Now, I'm not
because if that's the product of the prophets teaching, no, thank
you, I don't want it, you know, and people are complicated, like,
the people that you're talking about, that we're talking to, that
are dealing with these issues and struggling with them. They're not,
they're not black and white, in terms of in themselves, often
they, they they've been secularized by the society, in
part in certain areas, and just naturally, unavoidably. And often
they'll still have, like, you know, that, that that gem of beads
still hidden somewhere inside of them, and that, that yearning for
their comfort that, you know, it's it's dealt with, to deal with them
with softness, is often going to just unlock that and be and be the
calling and healing that they need. And the other point I just
go back to is what you, you were saying earlier, and what we
discussed earlier, which is that those those instances of of
mocking that we find, you know, even potentially earn or you know,
in some etc. They will, you know, that's, that's being done by
Allah. And that's being done by the most pure hearted, soft
hearted, most, most, you know, incredible man to ever walk the
face of the earth, you know, it's not how are we so competent? Yeah,
you know, in ourselves, that we're living up to that, that we're just
throwing out these, these, these, this, this mocking this and this
and, you know, and these gestures, etc, here, there and everywhere?
How are we that confident when, when, you know, often were the
cause it's often a chasm between our characters and,
you know, not to, you know, kind of put us down too much or
anything like that, obviously, we will try essentially to live up to
his character, etc. But there's often a chasm between between our
embodiment of a sudden he's in his input, you know, on certain issues
and so, we have to, we have to just give ourselves a reality
check. I looked in the mirror and say, you know, hold hold your
horses, you're not you're not, you know, you haven't got the you're
not reached that point where you're sincerely getting angry
only for the sake of above purely and you're not letting your own
kind of anger and rage and ego, you know, kind of, kind of cross
over into there's a big difference between anger for the sake of
Allah
In a pure sense, which is a beautiful thing, and a pure thing
and a needed thing, and there's a huge difference between that and
the anger that's most commonly seen in a society, which is which
ultimately comes from from, from from us. Right from in. Yeah. And
a very important point that you're bringing, because someone might
ask, Well, how do you know my anger is this way or that way?
Well, the answer very simply, is that
the one of the things that Chicago Manisha moody, you know,
rahamallah, passed away,
that he said, or that he was described by was that his anger
was always very brief.
And he could never be described as being an angry person. Right? And
so, did he have anger? Yeah, he had anger. But it was so brief.
And it was always very quickly shifted out of that anger into
even, you know, something generous towards the person who was angry,
too. But the point being is that what is a sign of anger for the
sake of Allah is that it's not constant, right? You're not always
angry, you're not always mocking something. It's not like you got a
personal hang up, right? It's not like that. And that's, it's such
an important feature, that to realize that anger for the sake of
Allah is always something that is rare. It's like, if that's the
case, anger for the sake of Allah, and you're always angry, you
should move them right. Or, I mean, if you're, it's not the
right, then who would want to join that religion, that if I join, I
guess I'll have to be angry 24 hours a day, you know. And so
that's the issue there. And
the sign of, you know, anger that's based in truth is that it's
actually quite rare, right? It's not something that is going to
happen every single day, that means we really got to believe now
that you actually have a problem. Your person, or your religion is
like that. And most people are not going to want to be part of that.
So really good discussion. And I found this young man to be really
thoughtful. I mean, who is more reckless, you know, than me in the
podcast to bring someone complete stranger on the podcast and put it
on. But I guess, like, I'm a decent judge of character, right?
And of people's content, or, you know, approach to things because
we talked for about an hour that day, and I just, I usually don't,
you know, I don't know why if for some reason, I said, yeah, we'll
find let's talk, right. And I think your emails were well
worded, they were smart. And I just happened, they just happened
to get on my radar. And I think you asked to not watch this and
want to get like 30 requests a day, to talk on Zoom, which is not
going to be possible, not because I don't want to talk to people,
but it's just physically not possible. But this has worked out,
you brought up some great points. And that's the whole purpose of
this podcast is the inside of podcasts is, you know, let's let's
get a feel of what's going on, on the front lines, like, quote
unquote, the streets, right, it's not the streets, but quote,
unquote, the streets. And you brought some, you know, really
good perspectives here. And I always like, and I've been told
some and taught, always remain in communication with those older
than you, those of your age, and those younger than you. And that
will, you know, give a complete perspective of things. And you
have to always be in communication with the elder, and with the
younger, as well as your own peers. And they said, the elders
so you know, where life is headed, and what's really important, and
what's not your peers so that you can measure Erie your opinions on
things against theirs, and matters of judgment. And so that you can
check your heart, if your heart is, has jealousy are not by being
in touch with your peers. You know, people are jealous of their
peers, they're not jealous of the elder or the younger, they're
jealous of their they have envy towards their peers. So if you're
in constant touch with them, you're grading your heart, you're
able to see if you have envy, and you're able to remove it and be
part of the Jamaat. And by being in touch with the youth,
you can actually see what's happening, you know, and where the
future is headed. Because whether we like it or not, the youth are
our future. And my young man here right in your you one day, will be
the elder to somebody else. And we have to keep on this, this link in
this tradition of always being in touch with the elder, your peers,
and the youth and that in our religion, there's no shame at all,
in whatsoever in even learning from the youth. Because if they're
if they have something good to say, says it said in scholarship,
no one has truly attained scholarship
unless they have studied with those older than them, those equal
to them in age and those younger than them which means he's
overcome his ego.
And he wants to learn, and he cares more about knowledge than
ego. For me, I care so much about having perspective on what's going
on in the world. And that's why, you know, I was trying to make
sure to be in touch with young people. So, to be able to sit here
and this is that without without making the disclaimer that the,
you know, all of all of those kind of points in perspective
obviously, have come from, from people
that have, you know, people have knowledge in my life.
And the people around me so so. So I, you know, I can't accept
kind of ownership responsibility for that, but it's such an
important point. I mean, you know, the, the elderly in the UK, I
don't know how it is in America, but we'll just shove them in, in
care homes. And I've actually been speaking to my grandmother a lot
recently.
And she just tells me stories about her past. She's, she's
English. So she tells me about how things were in England when she
was little. And you know, what, I learned so much from her even, you
know, she's she's non Muslim, but we're just talking. And, and so, I
mean, I couldn't, I couldn't have more respect for Yeah, what you
just said, it's, I think it's actually something that's being
lost in the society. Right? You know, I think that a lot for a lot
of youth. They don't care for the elders, unless the elder conforms
to their views of things. You know, like the, or a lot of
elders, the youth have gone. So they're in such another world, and
they're not really obligated to talk, right, the way we are
obligated, we got to know what's going on, and we got to talk. And
so as a result of that, you know, we end up with a big disconnect.
And I saw a tweet recently, you know, this girl was saying, my
aunt voted for Trump, she's dead to me. Yeah, it was like, I was
like, whoa, what?
I'm Muslim. I can't I can't stand Trump.
Ever, depending on how can you say that about your good?
relationship or connection? Does that? Yeah, I actually, I actually
believe believe that one of the biggest things that we have
in our deen is this mix up of ages. Right? The idea that you can
talk to somebody
there that you should always be with, you know, youth. Or you
should always I mean, sorry, you should always be with a mix up of
ages, where anytime you go out, it shouldn't just be adults out.
Maybe I mean, there's sometimes there are certain things that are
appropriate and not, but if you're going out to eat right dish should
be no problem with some youth, some adults, that mix up of age,
we see this in Ramadan, Saadawi, everything mix up of the ages, I
think it gives such an emotional support to people, right. And to
me, it gives a feeling like we have a trend, a tradition that's
being passed on, I don't have to be nervous about the future.
Because I'm in touch with the elite people of the future, right?
Youth, whether we like it or not, they're going to be the future.
One day, Allah is going to give them the reins, and we're going to
be retired, right. And we have to watch what they do with it. But if
we were in touch with them, if we invested, you know, and listened,
that's the most important thing. And that's why I love listening to
you. I also love to listen to elders, because they make you
realize that half the things you're actually flipping out on,
are not that big of a deal, right? Life goes on. It's always going
on. Allah always brings different tests to people and Allah is very
forgiving. And there's going to be a time in your life where the
happenings of today are not your number one agenda, right? You've
raised your kids. And all you can do now is prepare for your ACA.
And I've seen many elders in my community that reached that point
where I trust my kids, I have now a couple sons and daughters who
are now in mid middle age, I trust them with the welfare of the
grandkids and the community.
Right. And I think they could do a better job that I can. And that
allows me to just focus on my own Akura and everything else and I've
seen that, right? I've seen people who do that and wake up, have
breakfast with their wife, you know, then open up the Quran,
recite some Quran, and they take it easy, but they're purifying
themselves and realizing, oh, that's where we're headed. Okay,
good. I'm happy about that, you know, that's really nice. So so I
can relax a little bit because that's where inshallah we'll get
to. So I thank you very much for coming on. And who knows, maybe
we'll do this again sometime, since it was, I think, a really
fruitful conversation. And we'll see, you know, you know, what
people say, and what kind of reaction we get to this podcast.
Hopefully people will really benefit from it. I'm definitely
gonna share it with some of the moms
and dads who have high school youth in the lodge Allah so again
thank you so much for coming on and taking the time. Thank you and
we look forward to talking again soon inshallah.
Subhanak Allahu Morbihan Deke shadow Allah Illa illa Anta
iStockphoto going into a lake, while also in Santa Fe coaster.
Hill, Alladhina amanu Minnesota hats. What? So we'll help what was
sort of a suburb was seller