Nouman Ali Khan – The Quest for Interpreting & Contemplating the Qur’an

Nouman Ali Khan
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			Hey, everyone Somali Kumara delay where the cutoff is below salatu salam O Allah, so Allah, Allah,
Allah, he was a freshman. It's myself and my dear friends. So haev some article sabe o alikum.
Cinema, Allah, and under the shade of the beautiful final idea of Saud, Yusuf, where I spoke with
you guys about guidance. And hold on wha I mentioned to you that I'm going to have a discussion with
sohaib. About, really, you know, extracting guidance, because I think there's some practical
questions around that issue that everybody should be thinking about, every Muslim should think
about, at least at some point. So I'm going to start that conversation off, and I'll pose to our
		
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			audience, the same question that I posed to you when I was talking to you before we started this so
we can bring that discussion up. And that is that, you know, when we say we have to get guidance
from the Quran, the most common question you get is, well, what do you want me to do?
		
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			How do you have the authority to interpret the Quran Anyway, I'm not a scholar. And you have to have
mastered these these in the sciences before you can even begin to interpret the Quran. So how can
you say that you want me to go to the Quran, and contemplate it and seek guidance from it, when it's
something meant first and foremost, to be studied at a scholarly level? Right. And so who has the
authority to get guidance from the end? If we don't have the right tools, we'll end up getting
misguided, it's dangerous to tell people to go and engage with the Quran directly, right? That's a
very common sentiment. And like I said to you, I believe there's some merit to that sentiment, but
		
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			maybe understanding this issue in a more comprehensive way will help ourselves and everybody,
because at the end of the day, this is our book, and we have to engage with it, all of us. So I
wanted to have you start off and you know, what you were telling me about the way you think about
this issue? And how you frame and we can take the conversation? Okay, well, yeah, it's a hugely
important question. And for me a little bit difficult question, actually, to try to get the exact
parameters of it. So I was looking forward to a chance to discuss it with you and hey, we're doing a
live on the internet. So that's good. inshallah, I'm going to benefit from your insights as well.
		
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			I mean, first and foremost, everyone agrees all agree that the Quran is a book of guidance for all
humanity, that it is for everyone, we are guided by each individual is guided by it. But sometimes
you do get another kind of discourse. I mean, people have told me this.
		
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			I haven't actually heard it directly, but people have sometimes been in a hotel bar, like could have
been in a spray disarm. And, and, and someone has been saying that the Quran was like raw material.
And when it was revealed, then the, the scholars have have sort of received it, and they've woven
that material into into or those threads into cloth and then and then others that have turned that
cloth into clothes that we wear and and so the idea is that the Quran was revealed to some very raw
material, which then Islam was then built upon that.
		
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			But then, when they talk about it that way, you sort of think well, then the brand has served its
purpose, and everything that needed to be extracted from it has been extracted and woven into these
beautiful cloths and colors and threads. Right? I know, we have the books of fifth for example,
which are telling you about the practicalities of halal and haram, or you have the the scholars or
the teachers and the preachers that we go to? And they answer a question, so we get it from them, we
don't go to the Quran. And that is actually something as well people have told me
		
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			that people are saying to them, don't read. Don't read the Quran directly, you could end up being
misguided about reading the Quran directly. Don't read the translation of the Quran, you can be
misguided by the translation of the Quran. So then it's almost like they're saying, okay, you need
something else, you need the explanation of the Quran, which is the seal. But then they're saying to
them, and don't read the seal also, because you can be guided by the seal. So it seems to be all I
can understand from that, as they're saying Come to me, not me. So here but you know, whoever it may
be, I will I will tell you what's right and wrong.
		
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			Whatever. The Quran had to say, I have absorbed it already, if not myself directly, because the
stuff for law, you know, who am I? But then people before me have absorbed it. And then it's been
sort of passed them through our veins or through our tradition until I'm able to tell you what Islam
says without going directly.
		
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			Now, that sounds like I might be talking about a very
		
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			sort of, I don't know what like I don't want to use insulting words with the kind of village mindset
or you know what I'm getting at? Yeah, like you're just not. Listen, let the people with the big
brains do this. Okay, sure. The most common analogy I've heard is, would you would you do surgery on
yourself? Sure. Right, because you will only
		
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			Go to a doctor. Yeah. And but the thing is, what's interesting is that this kind of thing is being
repeated by also very educated people, very tech savvy people.
		
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			I, you know, like some months ago, I was having some discussion with people over Twitter, and you
know, to do many Twitter debates, really. But there was a strange kind of conflict over a certain
question, which was,
		
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			is, are we supposed to go to the crowd primarily for its meaning? Or should we appreciate the
product of the brand? In and of itself, it's letters and the restriction this letters even if we
don't understand this, and I'm coming from the kind of point of view of what the purpose of having
the letters of crowds to carry its meanings. And so when we are being taught to recite the Quran is
so that we do recite the Quran, and then so that we understand the Quran and that we follow the
guidance. And
		
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			I thought that that would be something nobody would, would argue with. But very quickly, people
react very strongly to this. And they say things like, well, what are you saying then about? Let's
say this an old woman can and village? I don't know which village they're talking about. But there's
a religion is old woman there. And you're saying that she can't be close to Allah? Because she
doesn't, you know, foldable in a TV or a study, Dream online? She doesn't know Arabic? Are you
saying that? She can't because
		
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			I'm not going after anyone in the village whatsoever. I'm having conversation with you who's sitting
on your modern phone and you're you have access to him, you have access to pause for a second on
that thought somebody asked if does that mean he's a scholar? So I'm going to interpret interrupt
this conversation? I'm going to have you embarrassingly enough. Tell me about your education.
		
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			Well, I've had some cloth
		
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			that's been woven by scholars.
		
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			You know, I I consider myself, obviously, as everyone says, this is a crucial part of
		
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			why I consider myself to be a researcher who works on the ground. My own education is in a larger
university. I graduated there in the Faculty of tafsir. Al factor theology in the department of
Ceylon Quran, and subsequently did a PhD. In the topic of Tafseer, at London University. My focus is
on politics here. So what are the principles that underpin tafsir, I've looked particularly at the
topic of the seal of the Quran, through the Quran.
		
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			Among the kind of work that I've done till now, I worked with Sierra Razi, I don't plug things
usually what I do, but this is the plug plug away, bro. This is the this is the translated volume,
one of the synergy. That's the kind of thing that I do. So naturally, you know, I'm also part of the
community, and I'm concerned with,
		
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			you know, how all of us are reading the Quran, how we're engaging with it, through reading the words
themselves through the translations, and trying to get to a point,
		
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			including in this work that we do would be to, you know, give people the resources in their hands,
that would help them to get that guidance. And it's what's interesting is that some of us feel this
very strong urgency that, like the reason we do what we do, and plug away to the up to date. And
then you have people who sort of have something in them is pushing back and saying, look, the Quran
has inherent Baraka, it has blessings in it, it is blasted, even if you recite it without meaning.
And I would say okay, that's fine. I mean, I don't want to take that away from it. I'm not trying to
take away anyone's blessing. I'm just trying to get back. Yeah, there's a defensiveness around that.
		
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			And also, because I asked for your credentials, I think it's important to mention my own, I don't
have any, I am not a scholar, I have engaged in self study, I have informally benefited from a
number of scholars, and engaged in my own quest, I have never claimed to be a scholar, and I'm
probably not one
		
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			I do consider myself a teacher of some subject matter.
		
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			And whatever I come to learn, I present myself as a more
		
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			perhaps more advanced students than some of you that benefit from my work and I continue to benefit
from others, including yourself and I think one of the main reasons I aligned myself with you sohaib
and with some other scholars and particularly with you is because I come to the study of Tafseer and
the study of the Quran from an unconventional beginning. And so I bring questions that are
unconventional in nature. And so when we You and I are studying together because of your training,
both in academia and before that in the traditional Muslim sense
		
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			you represent two
		
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			To me a kind of the background in Islamic scholarship. So even if I'm engaging, if I'm reading
raazi, or if I'm reading Lucy, and I have certain questions, I'm still gonna go to you about the
questions that I read about raazi. Right? Because I want you to represent to me to the best of your
ability, what's being said that I'm not grasping properly. Right. And that discussion, I think has
been extremely fruitful for myself and for you. And at the end of the day for I think our audience,
too, because it's, it's allowed for us to think about areas of Islamic studies of Quran studies that
are not normally thought about because we just end up reading one source, and we say, okay, that's
		
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			what it says. That's what it means. And we don't need to think about anything else. And I kind of
keep you and I keep pushing the envelope. But let's think about this deeper. Let's think about this
in a different sense. Or what, what, what's peculiar about this phrasing, etc, right? So that's
actually what we mean. So engaging, but I want to take you back to that comment about
		
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			you know, somebody saying that, you know, that lady in the village who wants to get blessings and
why can't you just have blessings from reading the Quran? The, the trick here is that here we are
talking about the act of engaging in understanding the Quran, and immediately, but what about what
about people who can't do that? So you're actually not engaging in this conversation? You want to
distract with a What about? And now that we're caught up in that, what about that lady in the
village? And we're on the backfoot defending her and saying, No, she's okay. Well, if she's okay,
that I'm okay to that, I guess.
		
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			I related to the lady in the village. She's right with my hand must be fine. She'll, she'll
intercede for me in the beer judgment.
		
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			Right. So with that issue aside, and why is it that we are quick to jump that if we talk about the
importance of something that we're necessarily condemning somebody who's not engaging in what we're
calling to calling importance to so if I say it's prayers really important, it would be pretty silly
to say, Are you saying everybody who doesn't pray is evil, and they worship the devil? And they are?
Well, hold on? No, that doesn't mean we can't talk about the importance of prayer. That's just a
distraction from the actual subject matter, right. So it's the same thing here, I think that the
subject at hand is one thing, but unfortunately, the conversation gets very easily derailed, because
		
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			we get defensive. Right? Whatever the problem is, that really just starting things have become very
normal in our culture, and our collective culture, even maybe, across the whole movement, certain
things we've become very used to and have become normal, which really shouldn't have been normal. So
again, this is something people get very touchy, if I bring up the issue of the system, and how
people are going to put on learning to pronounce the Quran, they're learning to recite the Quran,
they're memorizing the words of the Quran, but very commonly, extremely commonly, that is completely
separate from the idea of understanding the Quran. And sometimes you even hear that as a kind of
		
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			boost that we make, right?
		
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			where you say, you know, among the miracles of the Quran, is that you can have like a six year old
child who can recite the whole Quran, but you would say too much smoke, my smoke, what's your name?
For?
		
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			It doesn't understand
		
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			that that's, that's amazing. Because he doesn't know any other people he knows. Maybe on some level,
that is amazing. But it's also like, why did you do that?
		
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			Why Why did you know maybe a company that that study with understanding and what people will say to
them when I say something like that is okay, step by step. You know, Brother, please take it easy,
you know, don't don't try to dismantle them that says, you know, we've got what we've got, let's
build on it. Okay, you know, if we can build on it, let's build on it. But I'm saying that
conceptually, we became very comfortable with the sort of string situation. And I'm going to take
this further, because going back to talking about training a lot, and so on. I just want to point
out that as a graduate of Tafseer, in Alaska, at no point was it the least bit suggested to me that
		
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			swipe after graduating here, you will be an officer, or, you know, maybe not just after the
bachelor's degree, which is what I did. You could do the master's degree you could do
		
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			and then you'll be more passive, actually had no point was it really ever explained that
		
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			there was even a possibility of ever paying for, like, I'm on a path by doing this to be to be an
asset because this is another problem that we have our attitude towards the sort of the Quran,
collectively, almost completely as a plumber, or just very widespread, is that the car is a thing
that was done in the past. We've got tons of books that have been written. Mashallah hamdulillah
		
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			Whatever had to be set up with the Quran like that cloth has been woven. It's been done. And so
Tafseer there will be no need for it. So why would we train someone to be more festive?
		
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			Yeah, sure, we still need people to be fuqaha like, you know, move TVs and we need people to get
fat. Why? Because there's always going to be new issues that come up. I mean, to clarify for people
about their prayer, you know, if they're going to pray, we need to know how to pray, what was Haram,
we're always going to need new ingredients to be analyzed for the hallowmas and hallowmas. But for
senior, high, we've got the books, you know, a memorize, he did his job really well. A moment proved
to be the cafe, we've got all these things, even they're starting to get translated. So there's a
difficulty, I think, for people to conceive. And that's our topic now on like, what's, what remains?
		
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			Not just like, on the scholarly level, which I'm kind of starting off with, but then on the
individual level, what is it? What is it that we're supposed to try to get from the grind? What is
our task here, in terms of taking the guidance and the mercy from the Quran, which is, which is
where we're starting from here at the end of producing?
		
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			Yeah. And so to me, when you gave this framework, he said, and I think it's important for our
audience to know that there are two terms and there is some overlap between them. But in a broad
sense, there are two terms that everybody should know about when they're going to study the Quran.
And those two terms are seen into the book. Right? And let's draw, even though there's no hard line
between them, it's a close enough of a line that we can try and draw that
		
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			can help our audience, I think, I mean, my intention behind this lecture is that everybody who has
been listening to the lecture series, and I've been asking people to engage with the Koran more
directly, and the Quran itself has been making that demand and it's hard to avoid talking about that
demand. But practically, how do you do that? Right? So one way obviously is you're listening to my
lectures and inshallah other better better scholars and their works. And you're reading that stuff.
But what's a good practical way to understand the scope of what is it that you're engaged in? And
one thing that I wanted to bring up to start this conversation is for nowadays, for the average
		
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			Muslim who doesn't have background in Islamic Studies, they don't know where to begin, they're like,
man, I need to go get myself a translation of the Quran. Right? Because I'm being asked, Allah wants
me to think about what he said. So I need to go grab a copy of the Quran, in whatever translation,
whatever language I speak, you know, for our audience, most likely English. And so the question
arises, which translation do you recommend? Or which, which translation? Should I read? And behind
it? Actually, there's a problem that I want you to talk about that, basically, we've skipped the
need for tafsir, because we've assumed translation is available. Right. And translation is become
		
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			almost a substitute for Tafseer. For a lot of for the average Muslim, like, at least I have a
translation. Right. So I know basically, what it says.
		
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			And I think we need to raise the bar on that for everybody. Like individually, you have to raise the
bar on that for yourselves. And inshallah, the The hope is through Vienna and other efforts that are
already happening, at least a minimal bar, at least at the base level, what is the fear? What's the
goal of it? In the most simplest terms, and why is that more important? Or, if not more important,
equally important than reading a translation? So what's when, you know, let's talk about that a
little bit. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to say something about the theory, which might be a bit unusual,
like this is not really the answer you'll find in, in typical books. So yeah, I promise you
		
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			something exclusive. But the idea about the theory, usually we're talking about the theory of the
Quran, the Quran, right? And I want us to maybe change the thinking on that, really, when when we
have to see, it is not the fear of the Koran. It is the fear of our questions about the Quran,
right? Because the Quran in first place is, of course, a communication from our virtual panel Tada.
It was something which was speaking directly to the Prophet salallahu. Salam, and to the believers
around him, and to the unbelievers around him and those who were listening in. And when it was
speaking, for example, to the
		
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			Yeah, it will be Who are you speaking to? Yeah.
		
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			You know, different groups of people who were listening in, they weren't themselves having to say,
Okay, what does this mean? I don't know. Let me find someone to explain it to me. I don't know what
these words are. They weren't going to their rabbis, let alone to the orlimar. They weren't coming
to the Muslim to explain things because the words impacted them directly. They got what was being
said. Right. Yeah. So at the same time amongst the Sahaba occasionally, questions will come up
		
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			It might be your Sahaba. Who said I don't? I don't get what this means that happened. It could be
about a word. It could be something to do with Okay, something. Oh, it looks like it means this but
surely it doesn't. Because some, some dough comes in my mind, did I reaction the sentence correctly?
Yeah, they implemented correctly, a famous one with a Sahabi heard about had a debate about how you
can get translated, you know that you continue, you can continue eating during Ramadan until a white
thread and black thread. So the black thread and the white thread of dawn become distinct. So one of
the Sahaba famously used to keep
		
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			a black shirt and a white thread under his pillow. And he just took it at face value took it
literally and so he would wait until the there was enough light outside that he could tell the
difference between the two threads. And then he would begin is fast. And when the prompts are seldom
heard about this, and he clarified to know that this is actually talking about the night and the
day, and the expression is used of the black thread and the white thread. And if you were even in
separations, he sort of says to him, You must have a really big pillow, or you must have a big neck
and he's a big pillow, if you are keeping the night and the day under your under your pillow, right
		
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			because when I said I'm keeping the Blackford in the way thread, the postal system even sort of
joked with him and teased him just said that in that kind of way to make him realize that this was
not supposed to be understood, literally.
		
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			So questions would come up from believers, and things would come also from the unbelievers. Some
contention some suggested contradiction, some problem that they would try to find the Quran. And
that's where we find the only mention of the word in the Quran, which isn't suitable for con. If I
remember its first 63 or 36, maybe 36
		
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			you look up so that they do not come to you with any method it can be method in a legit NACA will
happy was an attempt to euro? Yeah, they don't come to you with any muscle any example. You could
see, like any contention, Excel
		
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			three 433 33 Baraka Luffy. So the no six, I don't know where I got that from. So the we reboxetine,
you think about surah number 36? As seen, that's why Alhamdulillah Okay, so that's it. So, he said
that we bring you the truth, and the best seal. So that's why I say the word of CNN is the only
place in the whole Quran the word to use. So for our audience again, so 25 is number 33 is the only
place in the Quran where the word of seed is used. So let's see how I used it. And what is it used
to mean? It means the answer to a contention, right? So it is an explanation. That's what the word
Tafseer indicates there's something becoming clear, but it's cleaning something up, which was in the
		
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			mind of, say, an opponent or someone making a problem. Or it could be then you know, the believers
themselves are affected by that and ask a question. So Allah is giving them the Tafseer that they
need, according to their gap, you know, the gap that arises between myself and the Quran, maybe
because of language. Like if I'm brought up speaking the language of especially those are at the
time of Revelation. You know, nobody is as fluent as they were. Right. So that's a gap that then
leads us to say, Okay, what does that word actually mean? That does, we need to see an answer to
that question, right. And then plenty of other things, so to see, basically has three levels, this
		
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			is what I think could be useful for us to think about. Because if
		
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			you brought up the idea of the C, versus the doubleroom, right. And I think that's definitely
something that's very useful for us as well. So I'll try to I'll try to bring some clarity to these
two words. But at the same time, maybe not as simplistic as people sometimes do. So FCA is going to
operate on three levels, right? So let's see, I'll use the screen here in the middle. Okay. In the
middle level, here is what we'll talk about first, this is the text of the grand, right, the words
of the Quran. So that's where translation is going to be really functioning here in the middle. It
is the actual words of the Quran, the phrases and the sentences, the structure, right? So that's
		
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			where, you know, we need to get to an understanding of what what are the words of the Quran saying,
right? That's our starting that's basically perhaps we're even emphasizing here the language of the
Quran when the language of the text
		
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			dictionaries to investigate that we're going to need the rules of Arabic language and how
instructions are you know how they lead to meanings? Yeah. all sizes of Bulaga so they all come in
to get to get here which are
		
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			which are called text or texts. So we have to have liquid on basically Arabic literacy to engage the
text. That's what it boils down to. Yeah. And that's the first thing that's going to be needed by
any professor, or, or other really important that you said it's the first thing because for a lot of
people, you know, I am I'm a huge advocate of teaching and propagating the teaching of the Arabic
language. And it can be easily assume that that's all I'm propagating, is study Arabic, and you'll
understand the Quran. No, study Arabic, because it's the first step to understanding the Quran not
study Arabic. So now you got it. Right. There's a that's the most, that's the most fundamental step.
		
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			And it's on this, we will build everything else. But there are people who spoke perfect Arabic, like
you said, In the time of the Sahaba, who sometimes didn't understand an ayah. Yeah, who didn't get
it? You know? So let's think about why like, so. Any I and we we experienced this ourselves, even if
we're reading a translation, the translation will give us something on that level. It might not give
you anything else, you know, some translations, I've got useful footnotes and so on, but others
don't. Right. So in translation, you're just operating on this middle level. So there's something
that you need in a sense before that, so I'll put it here at the top covering my head in my head
		
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			with it. So we've got the text, and we're going above it. above it. Yeah. Right. This is this is
what I tend to call pre text, because I want to think of it as something that exists before we even
before the text arrives to us, right? But you can just call it context. Okay. Okay. Context is two
things, both the the page context, the actual context, contextual context, that is to say, what was
said immediately before what and some extent what said after, right, but before even more so because
in us in a speech context, right, your understanding each sentence as it comes based on what was
before it, right? But then what comes after can further explain and clarify, right? So everything
		
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			basically, if you look at any idea, what else is on the page, that's you're going to be you know,
you have to, like, especially what people do when they want to take things out of context is take an
eye on this, this is very violent, and, you know, look, how do you know, it's called talking about,
you know, killing or something like this? I said, Well, you know, just pause a little bit, read the
whole page, that might answer your question, without me having to go into some deep discussion about
whatever. Yeah.
		
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			So that's, that's what's meant by textual context. And even I mean, just generally, in speech, if
I'm talking to you, and in the middle of us joking around, say, Man, I'm gonna kill you. And then
somebody just pulls that out and says,
		
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			I'm gonna murder you that without context, you don't know if something was a joke. You didn't know
who was saying it to who? You don't know what if I'm quoting someone or representing my own
thoughts, sometimes, in the course of an argument, you can represent the devil's advocate, right,
you can represent the the opposing party's view, and somebody could take a snippet when I'm
representing the opposing party's view, and say, Well, this is what he believes, because he came out
of his mouth. Yeah, it came out of my mouth when I was quoting someone that I'm about to engage
their idea it with, right? So textual context, basically, what you're getting at is, there's a
		
00:28:19 --> 00:28:52
			common occurrence, not just isolated speech, it's a conversation. And it's a lie engaging in a
divine conversation. And the first layer of pretext, if you will, is you can't take something in
isolation, you have to put it in its place. So that's the textual context. And of course, the other
one probably is the the context of time in place. Yeah. Or what we can say context of Revelation. So
right. To some extent, we have, we have this captured in the genre of narration, which is called as
ababu, the reasons of revelation or the context of Revelation.
		
00:28:53 --> 00:29:15
			But not every idea has a specific report that tells us, okay, this was the place or the time or the
situation it was revealed in, sometimes we have that sometimes you sort of deduce it, again, from
the text, it can, it can guide you to some understanding about, you know, for example, this was
revealed after hood, for example, you know, that because of what was going on,
		
00:29:16 --> 00:29:43
			you know, over the preceding pages, but this is very important as well, because it affects what the
ayah is understood to mean, sometimes the wording of the ayah appears to be very general, very
universal, all encompassing, but actually, it's, it's referring to a kind of situation that
resembles that initial place, that it came into, right. So, so that so that means that
		
00:29:44 --> 00:29:59
			in order to understand this, this middle level, the text, we need to understand it in context,
right, or according to these two contexts, right. So once you when we talk about that suburban
newzoo situation, I think there's a few things to maybe even think about that.
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:46
			In a subcategory kind of way, like, it's, it's almost almost always oversimplified as when was the
IR revealed? But it's actually there's a when there's aware, and there's a who meaning Who is this
talking about? And what circumstance are they dealing with? And what situation is it responding to.
So there's a, there's a time place, social setting, political setting, you know, the psychological
setting, in which certain iaat, we have clarity on when they were revealed. And it's also an
important thing you mentioned in passing, and I want people to stop and think about that, is that
we, for a huge chunk of the Quran, we don't have precise information about when this was given, and
		
00:30:46 --> 00:31:23
			who this was talking about. And it's, it's incredible that those huge chunks of the Quran tend to
have very general language also, right? It's the places in the Quran, where you say, I wonder what
this is talking about tend to be those places where you do have narrations, and you do have reports
on what the context actually was. And it's, it's pretty cool that in the study of the Quran, when
you come across places like that, you're even as a shallow reading of the English translation,
you're gonna say, I wonder what this is talking about. And you're gonna, if you dig deep, you're
gonna find there's a sub, you know, context that's, that's been discussed at length in our
		
00:31:23 --> 00:32:03
			scholarship. Right? Yeah. And this is why I worry for people. I mean, maybe this is why if we go
back to the earlier point, people are discouraging, you know, they're saying, don't read the
transition to crime, because you get confused. You know, I'm not part of that crowd at all. But as
you said, there is sometimes a point behind what they're trying to say. And yeah, what is that the
books as they are, you know, the books of translation are not often giving you that that background
information. So if you're just reading the text by yourself and decontextualized, not from the page
context by this from the revolutionary context, then then a person could be like, Huh, and then they
		
00:32:03 --> 00:32:07
			get a question in their mind, and they don't know necessarily where to find the answer.
		
00:32:09 --> 00:32:50
			But I'd rather think about, okay, how do we solve that problem of where they're going to get the
answer to it? Rather than sit? Don't read, you know, exactly like, reading we do. So to me, to me,
one of the responsibilities that also last I saw them left for this oma was actually mass education
of the Quran, like everybody should know, at some level, what the Quran fundamentally is saying,
what its soldiers are talking about. Look to me that this is where I draw the line between the seven
to the FFC or to me what and you can correct me if I'm not getting it right, between text and pre
text, what you described as text and pretext. You know what Ally's saying in the language that he
		
00:32:50 --> 00:33:10
			revealed it in? And you know, some things about it wherever the meaning isn't immediately clear,
like when somebody reads Al hamdu, lillahi, rabbil, aalameen, there's no confusion. There's like, I
don't know what Praise and Gratitude belongs to a lot of the master of all words, can you please
help me understand this? No, that's pretty clear. Well, actually, in in San Jose was pretty clear.
Right?
		
00:33:11 --> 00:33:48
			In, in Santa la castagna, the human being tends to, you know, truly rebel, thinks that he has no
need of anyone. Those are pretty, pretty straightforward, obvious places. And I would even say,
like, gins could pass by and hear Quran and say, well, we heard, we heard a unicorn impacts them,
there was no Tafseer necessary in the sense of until a scholar tells me what this means. I don't
know what this means. There's plenty of places in the Quran, where that's not the case. But there
are places in the Quran where even I would argue at a shallow level, you're gonna hit a roadblock
and say, Wait, I need to know more about this. This translation is leaving me with a question. And
		
00:33:48 --> 00:34:27
			it's not giving me the answer immediately. And those are the places where you are going to go to a
Tafseer, you are going to go and find out more. Now, I'm not saying that the places that are simpler
in or easier, more directed, meaning don't deserve to see this, they fundamentally do. But to make
it sound like the entire Quran is so ambiguous and so complicated, and such a scholarly exercise,
that nobody can read it and get anything out of it is one extreme. And the other extreme, forget
these scholars, they're trying to control my view of the Quran. They're trying to make it sound like
unless you go through us, you can't access the word of Allah. I'm gonna, you know, a level of guide
		
00:34:27 --> 00:34:56
			me directly if I'm sincere. I'm just going to read the translation. And I've got I've got friends
from back in New York, these not friends, people that I met, that like have sticky notes all over
their translation of the Quran, and they've got all their interpretations, crazy stuff that they got
from translation, and the translation is horrible to begin with. And they took some English word.
Then they looked up the etymology of that English word, and they came up with all kinds of
craziness. And that's but that's not what the Arabic word was at all. You know, and then they say,
no, no.
		
00:34:57 --> 00:34:59
			They're in shock because they're like, well
		
00:35:00 --> 00:35:15
			How am I supposed to engage with the Quran then? Well, you are supposed to engage with it, you first
of all, we have to up the bar on quality of translation. And we also have to up the bar on Hey, this
requires a little bit of context study pre text and context study. Right? So footnotes need to be
there.
		
00:35:17 --> 00:35:54
			On some way, I kind of appreciate what your new yorker friends are doing. I appreciate the spirit of
what they're doing. I you know, I just feel bad that maybe they they were slightly misled in or just
lacking in the materials to perhaps do it right, then they may get to wrong conclusions, but I
appreciate that they didn't just step back and see is not for me to do that, you know, I Why do I
have to think about it? This knowledge, is there. Any way I was guided us through the grant home as
guided? Yeah. You know, they're saying there's something that I have to get individually. And I
think that we appreciate that.
		
00:35:55 --> 00:36:24
			The other thing that happens a lot of times similar to what you said is that people say, Well, okay,
if you think that there's a need for FCA, or there's a need for going to scholars of the year and
listening to or reading what they're saying, then you're kind of accusing the Quran of being
unclear, right? And the Quran says in several verses that it is clear, you know, it's verses are
clear, it's it's in clear Arabic tongue. Right. Now, whatever we take that to mean,
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:58
			it's not going to, it's not going to change the fact that there are different categories of hire, as
you have just described, things that are immediately understandable. As long as you've got the
language and a bit of context, then you understand it without a problem. And things which actually
require a lot more thought and investigation. And, you know, if we're going to put into the you
know, how the brand describes itself, one of the things that says about itself is number seven of
sorts Allium, Ron. So three, verse seven, is that it has been Who is tomoka? Matt, who normally
		
00:37:00 --> 00:37:11
			shall be hot. So it has within it, what you can call clear, decisive versus an ambiguous, decisive
verses, which are the foundation of the book, that's when we're going to start.
		
00:37:12 --> 00:37:30
			Yeah. And there are others, which are open to interpretation, or others, which are sometimes people
say ambiguous, or somehow you need to understand those ones to go back first and foremost, to the
market up to go back to the clear at incontrovertible.
		
00:37:31 --> 00:38:11
			You know, he's straight talking is that, you know, it's, it's, it's not going to be open to debate,
there are other things which are open to debate, and then, you know, bring different parts of the
brand together. That's one of the things that our professor does. Okay. But the professor also
brings in other other sources in order to help understand, you know, the text of the Quran, and the
pretext or what we call the context of the Quran. Yeah. So we've still got the space at the bottom
of, of the screen for proposed text. Okay. So this is where we're going to get to pre text post
text. Right? What you got to put down here,
		
00:38:12 --> 00:38:36
			this is what flows from, from what we've just, you know, this union of, of text and text, once they
come together, you are able to have things that flow from it, that stem from it. And applications of
the text where where would be the world of today? I would argue, yeah. Or we can say to the
boldface, enter this or you can say that a double is this process as well, right?
		
00:38:38 --> 00:39:18
			It is everything that follows from the understanding of the text. So it could be rulings, it could
be fifth rulings, it could be rulings as to what is the correct creed, you know, theological
rulings, it could be you know, things that, again, still are like, scholars need to tell us this
because, you know, for all of us to derive, you know, what is the ruling based on this, I could get
back again, because I have to bring in other factors, right. So I've got the Quran, but I also have
to study with the sooner right, and the sooner is the context and is additional information that
helps me to understand the rulings of the crown Right, right. So, there are still things which are
		
00:39:18 --> 00:40:00
			definitely in the domain of, Okay, here, we need people to specialize and to be experts and to help
us collectively to, to explore this and to and to derive these rulings, but then you have other
things right. So, what is the moral lessons? The, you know, the lessons of you know, like you, you
talked before about different aspects of approaching the text like psychological context or social
context, economic context, even what are the psychological implications, you know, what are the
economic implications or are the political implications? It might not be a ruling, or fatwa, right,
but like what can be understood
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:46
			Got covenants from the IRA? Once you have understood it, right, so it's not necessarily what is
stated by the IRA. In the words right here. It's not what is stated, but what is being said, as a
consequence. Yeah. So so you can still say it is within, we'll call it is still that God said it.
But God did not necessarily say, in solicitors, but it but it's where people who are good at reading
what Allah says, can say, Well, yeah, but Allah is also saying that, in not so many words, right,
all right, it follows from what he said there are things that follow. And that's where a person has
to go. As soon as they start. Yeah, go ahead, you have to construct an argument to show how you go
		
00:40:46 --> 00:41:16
			from, from the text and the contents, how you got from that to this to this other thing. And this is
that that's the space that I wanted to talk to you about, in my view. And maybe this is, I mean, I
hold plenty of politically incorrect views. But one of my views, at least as an, you know, not being
a scholar being an average Muslim, who tried to make their way through understanding this religion,
and eventually getting to some place of maybe intermediate level of understanding.
		
00:41:17 --> 00:41:41
			What I observed was that we have a massive gap between the public and scholarship. And that gap, is
it's a social phenomenon. It has many reasons why that social phenomenon exists. But one of the
problems that that gap created is that the scholarship is not aware of the questions being raised by
the public.
		
00:41:42 --> 00:41:48
			And therefore, they're studying the questions that were raised by people centuries ago.
		
00:41:49 --> 00:42:24
			And so the average person today that says, I'm going to engage the Quran, and then has questions,
because they see the world around them, and they're like, what does the Quran have to say about the
world around me? Right? And they're reading the Quran? And they have a question. And then they want
to go to a scholar and say, What does the Quran say about this? But the other side of that is also
somebody who's, you know, engaging in a quest to study the Quran, on their own, comes to somebody
who knows more, comes to scholarship in general, not an individual but scholarship in general and
says, I want to know what this ayah means. Or I have a question about this ayah. Right. And they're
		
00:42:24 --> 00:43:02
			being told you need to go read this, this this resource. That's great. But I already read that. You
told me to go read him because he Rahim Allah, I did, I found the English translation of it, I read
the interpretation of this ayah that's what it means. But I still have five questions. Right? The
platform for engaging questions about the Quran. First of all, we didn't create an opportunity to
engage the Quran like that, collectively. And second of all, that platform needs to be there, where
somebody can engage in the Quran, and then have somebody they can talk to and say, Hey, what about
this ayah? Or how do you think about this? And you know, what can happen, you might find a
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:42
			satisfactory answer, which helps you grow. But over time, what that does, I think it raises public
awareness of the Quran to a point where they're now asking harder questions of our scholarship, and
maybe even forcing scholars to consider things they didn't consider before. And it's pushing
scholarship to a new standard, to what really a higher standard, because that what that gap doesn't,
to me, it creates intellectual stagnation. So either people become pseudo scholars, they become
scholars in their own world where they don't have to go through any of the credentials and the
training and all of that stuff. And they can come up with, you know, conclusions about whatever, as
		
00:43:42 --> 00:44:21
			much as I studied or on, if I come across a lot that has to do with inheritance, or they have to do
with, you know, the legal dimensions of hedge or divorce law or whatever else, I need to go to a tee
and really grasp what's going on here. Right, or the art of Riba. I need to sit with a muhaddith and
a scholar and a key to say, what is Allah saying here? It really helped me understand because I
don't want to, you know, the language is the language got me this far. Context study got me this
far, but there's a legal dimension to this that is beyond my scope, right? So the same way, the you
know, if we, if we educate the woman to a certain level, and enough people, then they'll know the
		
00:44:21 --> 00:44:54
			limits of their knowledge to like, they'll say, okay, you know, what, my studies got me this far.
Here's where I need scholarship to help me above and beyond that, you know, instead of them saying,
Well, I'm kind of, it's a free for all, I'm on my own. I'm going to do my own reading and come to my
own conclusions, etc. And I've been on both ends of that I've been on the end, where you're learning
from a scholar, everything they say is that that's what it is. And that's what it is, you don't
question it. And then kind of on the chaotic side, where I'm going to try to figure this out myself.
And then finding the path in the middle. I'm going to do whatever reading I can study I can. But
		
00:44:54 --> 00:45:00
			first I have to humble myself to the text and say, because it's a last word and say, to the best of
my understanding, this is what
		
00:45:00 --> 00:45:28
			I think it means, but I need to go and ask these questions to someone who knows more? Or can you can
cross reference or, you know, head back against what I'm concluding. Yeah. So that it's refined. So
my own thinking is refined. Right. And that's, that's a collective conversation that we need to
encourage you might have. Right? And it sort of moves in a circle, you know, because there's just
two ways that you can do this one is to,
		
00:45:30 --> 00:46:00
			to read the works of scholars first so that you have the basic information about the if, yeah, if
you've got a computer available in English, whatever it may be, you read something and you read, you
understand as much as you can from that and then then you go further and say, Okay, what what can I
understand from that? What does that lead me to think and the goal that we all need to do as
individuals is, is applying into our own lives right? So that's when it becomes like a full blown
every person
		
00:46:01 --> 00:46:46
			that has not an anywhere in the Quran told you to do. Right? As I told you that work that shows up
in 2533. Right. But he told you to do the double mental you think and to everybody else to think and
to ponder and to ask the question to reflect in many different words. But the one that maybe sticks
the most when it comes to the Quran is the Double of the Quran. Yeah, but but other words are used
for for thinking and observing and and it's a process where you have all these different aspects are
interplaying right? So it's not just sitting with with the Kitab you know, the printed book and just
just thinking about Do they not wander in the world you know, do they not observe Do they not see
		
00:46:46 --> 00:47:26
			what happened to other civilizations do they do not look in the heavens do not look within
themselves to the study they do not reflect you know, actually just have curiosity to have just
wonder at the creation wonder human beings and and that's going to interplay with your reading of
the text. But no, yeah, cuz the bronze asking you to engage in the outside world. Like I was talking
to a group of people that were studying Quran pretty intensely. And there was also before going in I
had met some of their families and their families were saying these people don't spend enough time
with us. They're just so engrossed in their own Koran studies that their life outside of that
		
00:47:26 --> 00:47:55
			doesn't exist anymore. So I wanted to give a dose about a fellow young Guru nyla liveleak eva
wholecut right then look at the camel how it was created. Allah says did they don't look at the
camel how it was created. I was like, you can read it. Look at Hera, Himalayan Caribbean Tabare
about the camel and how he was created. And the grammar of the word camel and the etymology of the
word camel. But ally saying go look at a camel. Yeah, because the camel and coming inside the
machine. So we'll look at it. And that's a great example of something that
		
00:47:56 --> 00:48:06
			the explanation of it or the deceit of a can can increase over time, because we can study camels a
new way we can do x rays of a camel, if you really want CAT scan.
		
00:48:07 --> 00:48:45
			You can do you can, yeah, things that are known, you know, through through sciences connected with,
you know, zoology and biology as well, which which can exceed whatever was written, you know, in
the, in the first century is about camels, even though they were perhaps closer to, to, you know, to
the cultural context in which camels are important. So, that's where, like, more questions can be
asked, you know, what is what what you're telling me about the camel, and then books are going to be
probably not the best thing, a documentary, a science documentary, about the honeybee, about, you
know, galaxies and stars and so on, it's going to be a lot better than anything that was written
		
00:48:45 --> 00:48:54
			however many centuries ago, and that's not taking anything away, genuinely not taking anything away
from from our, our great minds and authors and scholars and humans.
		
00:48:55 --> 00:49:41
			So the double importantly, it's, it's going to be about how does this affect me? How is how am I
going to change on the basis of what I am pondering here, whether it's to do with action, whether
it's to do with attitude, whether it's belief and feeling, you know? Is this an ayah which is
supposed to instill within an all and reverence of God a fear of God if you like, then you know, it
better do that. Otherwise you've not you've just read it okay? I understood that Allah is getting
his servants you know, that he can be happy by the who Yeah, by default, the food I'm in this ayah
Allah subhanaw taala as seen by this law instills fear into a service will my service fear me and
		
00:49:41 --> 00:49:45
			peace, be vigilant of being okay Mashallah move to next ayah?
		
00:49:46 --> 00:49:49
			What kind of, you know, dead heart would read the eye in this way and if
		
00:49:51 --> 00:50:00
			you have Wi Fi, you know, Allah is calling it's making, it's telling me that in the proceeding, I
when he's describing Johanna, it was to instill within
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:02
			We have, and then he says, Yeah, buddy,
		
00:50:05 --> 00:50:49
			you know, take this message and and do your best to live within the boundaries I have given you, be
careful because you're going to harm yourself if you don't follow this path. So that's the other
thing, you hit it on the head of C becomes, at one point, an academic, intellectual exercise, and
you easily lose sight of the fact that it's Allah talking to you directly. And sometimes shaking you
like you're asleep, wake up. And you can read a scholar, say, and in this ayah, Allah is scaring his
slaves, and you're like, Oh, that's what I'm gonna I'm gonna take notes on that. You can take notes
on that, or you can actually take in what's being said, we've run
		
00:50:53 --> 00:50:54
			out of lessons on it as well.
		
00:50:56 --> 00:50:58
			My son, my soft students got a kick out of that.
		
00:51:02 --> 00:51:06
			thing. So there's so many angles to approach. But when we talk about
		
00:51:08 --> 00:51:33
			the first thing that every one of us has to have is an attitude, relationship and engagement with
the heart as well as with the mind. Yeah, what am I getting from this? And that's where it doesn't
have to be emphasized. The other thing where sometimes people have got this idea that contemplating
the Quran and pondering into the Quran is to be able to produce a really neat quote that you can put
on Insta, you know, I call the Institute of war, right?
		
00:51:35 --> 00:52:09
			So it's where you It's where you come up with a quotable, right, you basically paraphrase the
meaning of the idea and in some other words, you don't have to do anything wrong, you know, that
might be skewed, but it's a wave of accomplishment. It's not the purpose, you know, yeah. to reward
the purposes like you know, you could do to double down on something just by reading the AI over and
over again and you feel the effect you feel it somehow impact on you. That's the this is the last
thing I want to kind of have you chime in on and I'm going to say, say my piece on this and I want
your two cents on it too.
		
00:52:10 --> 00:52:33
			We in the Muslim community have certain buzzwords that we throw in when it comes to interpretation
of Quran. We have to interpret the Quran through the Sunnah of the Prophet sighs that's great. I
believe that too. But we don't qualify these statements we make them blank, you know, sort of
posters around and so now Quran and Sunnah Quran sola, the issue is when you're reading Alif Lam
Meem
		
00:52:34 --> 00:52:40
			when you're reading the elegant tabula vaporfi, who the limit again, when you're reading a huge
score of the art of the Quran,
		
00:52:42 --> 00:53:24
			even the most classical of the faster you're going to read, the scholar will not actually cite a
hadith under it. On many, many occasions, you're not going to find a hadith being talked about no
sadhana was mentioned in the interpretation of desire, yes, sila may have been may have been talked
about, may not have been talked about some references and some scholars may have cited 15 other if
the issue is we conflate this notion that unless you have a an expansive knowledge of the books of
Hadith, you cannot engage with the Quran. And I think that's historically dishonest, because not to
dismiss the value of the sun at all. And it's pivotal importance on certain key places in the Quran.
		
00:53:25 --> 00:54:04
			But the issue is when Islam spread in the early we say the earliest Muslims were the purest of all
Muslims fine when Islam spread, and Muslims are spreading like wildfire across Africa across the
desert, or, you know, in Abyssinia, Persia, Roman Empire, we're spreading Islam is spreading very,
very, very quickly, right? And people are taking Shahada and the world of the seed and the world of
scholarly interpretation and the world of jurisprudence and the world of even the codification of
Hadith has not even fermented yet. There are some things that are known there are some things that
are not known. And Muslims are spreading far and wide, and Quran is spreading far and wide. And over
		
00:54:04 --> 00:54:41
			time, we're consolidating all of this other body of knowledge and developing that, what do we say
about those early Muslims that had no access to resources? They didn't have the proper
understanding? Is that how we look at it? They may have had some questions they weren't able to
answer. And then they sought out the answer, and it was a much longer quest for them to find the
answer perhaps. Right. But to say that, Oh, well, it's the you know, for every ayah you must
understand what the Sona has to say about it is actually academically, intellectually, in a
scholarly sense. I believe that to be a dishonest, exaggerated claim that people say in order to
		
00:54:41 --> 00:55:00
			say, if we don't say that we're not loyal to the Sunnah, right? And you cannot make a claim by being
defensive. You have to be honest about something. You have to be transparent about something,
because because if you don't make that blanket claim, then somehow you are in denial of Hadeeth or
your denial of this analysis.
		
00:55:00 --> 00:55:20
			literature and I want your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, it's something that has has different
meanings in this context. So, there are not so many where we know that the prophet SAW Selim give a
direct explanation, like in words that he delivered a directive See, if you look for hadith of this
nature, there is a there is a book that I
		
00:55:22 --> 00:55:28
			consulted on this question. It gathers all the Hadees that the author could find,
		
00:55:29 --> 00:56:12
			which are direct. Even if life you know, even a very weak Hadith, directly commenting on an IRA.
Yeah, whether it is strong Hadith or a weak hand, if you just put it all in, in order to gather
together he came up with 318 Hadees. Right. Okay. If you think about it's not, it's not a huge
amount, you know, 318 verses 6000 something I add, the idea that books are seldom explained in
words, most of the Quran or all of the Quran doesn't really stand up. Even if that happened, it
wasn't transmitted, it wasn't recorded in right, you'd think it would have probably been a priority
when in terms of recording, so the pasta salad relied on the fact that people for the most are going
		
00:56:12 --> 00:56:17
			to understand what they had to understand. But then the Quran itself
		
00:56:18 --> 00:56:42
			and the Sunnah, guides towards the value of thinking and pondering and contemplating and going to
deeper understanding. So, the sooner is also the general practice of the possum and of the community
also becomes part of the sooner so understanding the Quran within that sooner, which includes, for
example, if the Sahaba were doing were acting
		
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			upon certain, you know, for example, in their prayers, right, specific Sahaba are being observed
that they pray in this particular way. Like everybody knows, their Sahaba they prayed behind us, and
they're not getting it wrong. Right, right. So in a way, the words you don't have to have a hadith
about this is this is Rahul and this is the angle. And this is you didn't have to have that
overwhelming practice that is the established on and you would also then if something in the Quran
seems to be at odds with that, then you know that Okay, I have to understand the diversity Quran, in
light of what is observed from the Sahaba is more likely to happen than saying, what the Sahaba is
		
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			armed with the Quran clearly says so and so. So yeah, they got they all got it wrong. Yeah, because
that's not gonna happen. Yeah, that couldn't have happened. Right? So then, okay, the, the prayer is
just so it's a visual example. But in other things were the same. Okay, this is how the law is, this
is what we do. This is how we deal with a situation. And the words book or a movie or their parent
minute, seems to be contrary to that, then they will say, Okay, well, the words of a parent can be
understood in another way that's less obvious.
		
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			And scholars do that. Because they will say, well, we need to reconcile somehow, between what the
scholars have fixed and jurisprudence and law, what they have concluded, based on the entirety of
the evidence, including Hadees, including the fatwa of the Sahaba, you know, sort of comes together.
And then we say, okay, the words that were put on maybe, are not always to be taken at face value,
but they have the highest authority, regardless highest authority in their transmission, I think
this is certainly going to play a role, especially I mean, in our engagement over the last year, but
still with the use of this was less of an issue. But I think going forward, especially when we deal
		
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			with some of them whether or not
		
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			and maybe perhaps when we get to sort of Nyssa or we get to sort of MMA, or we get to sort of even
		
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			at ease is going to Selena and sila are going to play a pretty fundamental role in our engagement
with the text. They don't have to it did with Ron Allen. Ron. Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of huge
content there as well. Yeah. JOHN. So there are you know, and this is this is a balance that has to
be struck. But we can't you know, when you my disclaimer on all of this is when you become
accustomed to catchphrases without really thinking about them, then you end up running into a wall.
		
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			And we have to have nuanced we have to have deeper thinking about these things. Even as an average
Muslim we have to raise the bar and how we think about things and hold ourselves to a higher
standard.
		
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			And inshallah Darla raise the bar that way. I think there's some pretty interesting questions. Some
people are saying what to name their baby, that's okay. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to end
the broadcast here but so him and I both will probably try and engage some of the questions in the
comment section on both YouTube and on Facebook over the next day or so. And shall Basilica located
and save for coming on. And it's much better time here for me so I gotta go to so
		
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			buckle up.