Nouman Ali Khan – Can We Use Surah Al-Isra to Understand What’s Happening in Palestine – World Quran Convention

Nouman Ali Khan
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The speakers discuss the historical impact of " Ib t" in the Bible and its use in modern interpretations. They stress the importance of "well-characterized use" in modern political and financial crises and the need for clarification on meaning for modern or contemporary interpretations. They recommend visiting websites for more resources on learning the Bible, specifically mentioning " bay combustiblev.com."

AI: Summary ©

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			Almost every day I come across 1 of
		
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			these, reflections where someone is saying,
		
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			in order for us to
		
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			give victory
		
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			to Palestine and to justice nowadays, we have
		
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			to become Ibad like those Ibad.
		
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			We have to become Ibad,
		
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			servants of Allah, righteous worshipers of Allah, like
		
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			those ibad before.
		
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			But when I open the books of tafsir,
		
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			I find that these ibad,
		
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			who I talked about in the ayat of
		
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			Sur al Isra,
		
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			are not righteous worshipers of Allah.
		
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			We shouldn't aspire to be like them because
		
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			they were unbelievers.
		
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			Even though the name Ibad is used for
		
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			them, that's the point that we're obviously going
		
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			to need to discuss.
		
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			The Quran
		
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			which we consider as divine speech of our
		
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			creator,
		
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			lord of the worlds was revealed over 1400
		
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			years ago
		
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			in 7th century Arabia
		
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			to the last prophet and messenger
		
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			Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah
		
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			be upon him
		
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			over a period spanning 20 3 years.
		
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			The first audience of the Quran
		
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			was the prophet himself,
		
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			and by extension
		
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			the people of his time,
		
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			his space, and his society.
		
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			Those who listened to this divine speech
		
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			met him,
		
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			believed in him,
		
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			and believed in the speech
		
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			became his companions.
		
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			The revelation
		
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			transformed
		
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			not only their world view,
		
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			but also their very being.
		
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			It impacted their emotions,
		
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			their psychology, their understanding of the universe,
		
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			of history,
		
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			of destiny,
		
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			and their place in it.
		
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			In the era of prophetic revelation,
		
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			the companions had the prophet
		
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			to turn to,
		
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			and even those of their own generation who
		
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			were well versed in the Quran,
		
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			the likes of Ibn Abbas, or Ibn Mas'ud,
		
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			or Bayibin Kab, Zayd
		
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			ibn Harith of and
		
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			others.
		
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			They discussed,
		
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			they questioned,
		
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			they deliberated over the Quranic content and message.
		
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			In their pursuit to understand and study the
		
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			Qur'an,
		
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			they also sought clarification
		
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			from the Prophet
		
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			himself.
		
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			And the Quran itself alludes to this when
		
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			it records their questioning,
		
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			with and they ask you.
		
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			They deepened their knowledge,
		
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			they
		
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			depended on their knowledge of the Arabic language
		
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			and in particular,
		
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			pre Islamic poetry.
		
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			And it can be argued, as we shall
		
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			see today, that some even relied on the
		
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			knowledge of previous
		
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			scriptures to make sense of revelation.
		
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			The 2 generations after the companions, the and
		
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			the
		
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			continued and built on this legacy
		
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			and the likes of Mujahid,
		
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			and many others became reference points
		
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			to understanding
		
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			and studying the Quran
		
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			And what followed then
		
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			over a number of centuries
		
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			was a scholarly endeavor
		
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			to lay down principles
		
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			of understanding the Quran and
		
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			the penning of many works
		
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			of tafsir or commentary of the Quran.
		
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			And these commentaries of the Quran,
		
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			what we are accustomed to today when speaking
		
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			about our classical tradition
		
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			or our our intellectual heritage.
		
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			Thus, the names and the works of Tabarib
		
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			and Kathir, Al Baydawi,
		
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			among many countless others
		
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			unknown to us all today.
		
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			Since Muslims believe
		
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			that the Quranic Revelation is for all time
		
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			and all spaces and not just the audience
		
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			of the 7th Century Arabia,
		
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			it is still being interpreted
		
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			and understood and studied to this day.
		
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			Many of our distinguished panelists
		
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			are actually part of this contemporary endeavor
		
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			of understanding and articulating
		
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			the Quranic message today.
		
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			Our panel session today
		
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			will explore
		
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			how the Quran was understood in the past
		
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			and the challenges and opportunities
		
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			of understanding the Quran today
		
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			and what are the future prospects
		
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			of understanding the Quran?
		
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			Do we simply regurgitate
		
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			classical tradition?
		
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			Are we bound by that tradition in our
		
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			understanding of the Quran?
		
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			Can we be critical? Are there limits?
		
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			Can we have fresh and new interpretations
		
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			of the Quran?
		
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			If so, what tools do we have at
		
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			our disposal today?
		
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			You would have noticed that Sheikh Rami
		
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			recited from the beginning
		
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			of Surah Al Isra.
		
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			We thought it would be pertinent and relevant
		
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			to relate this discussion
		
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			about studying the Quran
		
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			yesterday, today, and tomorrow to what is happening
		
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			in the world today.
		
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			Surah Al Isai makes mention of this prophetic
		
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			journey from Mecca to the blessed land, Masjid
		
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			Al Aqsa, Banu Israel,
		
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			the 2 corruptions
		
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			having power twice,
		
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			dominance and tyranny.
		
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			Is this a prediction of what we see
		
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			unfolding
		
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			today in front of our own eyes?
		
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			I'd now like to ask Ustad Noorman
		
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			to lay down the case
		
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			for choosing these verses,
		
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			the first 10 verses of Surat Al Isra
		
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			as a case study and begin this session
		
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			with a problem statement.
		
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			What I'm going to do first, so that
		
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			everybody follows along with this conversation,
		
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			is I'm going to read and
		
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			briefly explain some of the issues
		
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			that we're going to discuss in this first
		
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			ayat of Surah Al Isra. Those of you
		
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			that have a Quran app on your phone
		
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			or if you have a copy of the
		
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			Quran with you, open it up. It'll help
		
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			with this discussion because I'd like all of
		
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			the members of our audience to get the
		
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			most out of this conversation,
		
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			and that's not going to be easy if
		
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			you're not following along.
		
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			So we begin.
		
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			How perfect is the 1 who took a
		
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			slave in the middle of the night
		
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			from Al Mashid Al Haram to Al Mashid
		
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			Al Aqsa, which would be Jerusalem,
		
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			whose surroundings we bless, so we can show
		
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			him some of our signs.
		
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			Certainly he is all hearing all seeing.
		
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			Musa Al Kitab, and we gave Musa Alaihi
		
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			Salam the book
		
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			referring it seems obviously to the
		
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			and we made it a guidance for the
		
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			children of Israel
		
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			that you do not take other than myself
		
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			as someone who takes care of your affairs.
		
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			I want you to make special note of
		
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			ayah number 3. We're gonna come back to
		
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			ayah number 3 at the end of our
		
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			towards the end of our panel, but I'll
		
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			roughly translate it.
		
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			The children, the offspring of those who we
		
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			boarded on with Nuh. I'm referring to the
		
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			the the ark, the ship that he built
		
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			and the children that were boarded on.
		
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			Certainly he was a grateful slave. Now this
		
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			ayah is going to be significant at the
		
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			end, like I said, because it seems Allah
		
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			was talking about Bani Israel and all of
		
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			a sudden he's talking about Nuh alaihis salaam
		
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			and the children worded on with Nuh. Why
		
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			is he referring to them in this way?
		
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			What's the connection? We'll see towards the end.
		
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			We decreed to Bani Israel in the book
		
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			that you will absolutely cause corruption in the
		
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			earth twice.
		
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			So Allah has decreed for them that they
		
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			will be the cause of corruption in the
		
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			land twice.
		
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			And you will have you will act with
		
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			great arrogance or you will have great power.
		
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			There can be 2 meanings here. We will
		
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			be discussing them in some detail.
		
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			When someone acts
		
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			arrogantly,
		
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			you can apply
		
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			and
		
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			when someone has a lot of power,
		
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			like even about Firaoun had a lot of
		
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			power and he was arrogant and Allah says
		
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			the same word was used for him. Right?
		
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			So they will have great power twice. Okay.
		
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			When the first of our promises was fulfilled,
		
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			meaning Allah promised that this will happen twice,
		
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			now Allah is talking about the first time
		
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			that they will have that great power or
		
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			that they are going to cause great corruption.
		
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			As a result of that, Allah says,
		
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			We appointed over you servants
		
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			at our service. Ibadan Lana.
		
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			Who are these Ibadan Lana? I will right
		
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			now offer you a more recent interpretation.
		
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			So there is going to be a lot
		
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			of discussion about this throughout the hour, but
		
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			right now I will offer you a very
		
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			recent interpretation of what this could refer to.
		
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			The argument contemporary
		
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			is that this refers to the Sahaba
		
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			and the Prophet
		
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			that in Medina,
		
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			we know that we engaged in warfare with
		
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			the Jewish tribes who were powerful
		
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			And Allah says when the first of my
		
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			promises was fulfilled,
		
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			that we appointed meaning the Sahaba and the
		
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			Rasool
		
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			over you who are capable of great warfare,
		
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			then they broke into homes or they probed
		
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			into every home, and that was a promise
		
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			that was meant to be fulfilled. So this
		
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			may be referring to Banu Quraybah or if
		
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			you're for your own reference, if you look
		
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			at the opening of Surat Al Hashab, surah
		
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			number 59,
		
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			you will see
		
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			They were destroying their homes with their own
		
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			hands and the hands of the believers that
		
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			this might be referring to what happened in
		
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			Madinah with the Jewish tribes and the Prophet
		
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			Okay.
		
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			Then, now this is the again, I'm not
		
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			commenting on whether this is correct or not
		
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			correct. I'm saying this view exists right now.
		
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			That's all we're discussing right now.
		
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			Then we gave you Now who's the you?
		
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			That would still be Bani Israel.
		
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			So Allah is referring to Bani Israel as
		
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			the you here right now. Allah is talking
		
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			to them and He's saying, We gave you
		
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			a return,
		
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			another turn against them. So now the them
		
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			would be the Muslims.
		
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			So now Allah is saying if in that
		
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			interpretation
		
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			that Allah gave the Israelites
		
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			power again over the Muslims.
		
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			Okay.
		
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			Children is their own assets,
		
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			but then Allah
		
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			says, and we put for you other people
		
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			also or we made you multitudes. And this
		
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			might be interpreted as not only was the
		
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			state of Israel formed, because there's no other
		
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			time in history where they had power again,
		
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			so not only was the Zionist state of
		
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			Israel formed, but now there are other superpowers
		
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			that add to their manpower.
		
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			So that would be the implication here. And
		
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			now Allah says,
		
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			If you do good, you're only doing good
		
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			for yourselves, and if you do bad, then
		
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			that is how it's going to be. Fa
		
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			idhajaawadul
		
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			akhira.
		
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			When the second promise will be fulfilled. Remember
		
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			the first promise was, when they're corrupt,
		
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			then the Sahaba and the Prophet
		
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			destroyed and overtook. So now Allah is saying
		
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			you're going to be you're going to have
		
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			power again, but when the second promise will
		
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			be fulfilled,
		
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			and I'm using
		
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			for this purpose of this interpretation,
		
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			will be fulfilled.
		
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			We'll see later there's gonna be another interpretation
		
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			when it was fulfilled.
		
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			So not for the future, for the past.
		
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			But right now we're interpreting for the future.
		
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			Okay. When the second promise will be fulfilled,
		
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			then they, meaning the Muslims,
		
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			will humiliate you and they will enter the
		
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			masjid. Which masjid?
		
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			Aqsa,
		
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			the way they entered the first time. So
		
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			Muslims, of course, entered Al Aqsa in history,
		
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			and now they will enter Al Aqsa again
		
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			the second time,
		
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			and they will cause terrible destruction, or they
		
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			will do a great destruction.
		
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			Now this last part, when they will take
		
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			over and destroy,
		
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			the interpretation here is they're not going to
		
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			destroy Masjid Al Aqsa. They're going to cause
		
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			other destruction. So the Muslims will take over
		
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			and they will decimate the Israelites.
		
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			It may well be that your master will
		
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			show you rahma, and if you go back
		
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			to that behavior, we will go back to
		
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			the same procedure, meaning we will deal with
		
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28
			you in the same way.
		
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			And we have made jahannam a prison for
		
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			those who disbelieve. This was a rough translation
		
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			and you can see how because of what's
		
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38
			happening with Israel right now and the entire
		
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41
			world is in conversation about
		
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			how to or Muslims how to understand this,
		
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			because the Quran
		
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			mentioned that they're going to have power twice
		
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			and if they already had power twice in
		
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			history,
		
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			then how can we understand that Israel has
		
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58
			power now? So there was a new thinking
		
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00
			about maybe these ayat are referring to what's
		
00:14:00 --> 00:14:00
			happening
		
00:14:01 --> 00:14:02
			right now. But
		
00:14:02 --> 00:14:04
			if this is the second time,
		
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			then we have to figure out what was
		
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			the first time because it refers to the
		
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			first time and the second time. So the
		
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			first time must have been the Sira of
		
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12
			the Prophet
		
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			So it's actually working backwards. We're seeing they
		
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			have great power now and then according to
		
00:14:16 --> 00:14:17
			this interpretation
		
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			they are going to be given a lot
		
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21
			of power against us.
		
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24
			And they and there are some other implications
		
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25
			that will come from them.
		
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			It. They will have a great power against
		
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			us and eventually we will, you know, destroy
		
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			them. That's the kind of interpretation
		
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			that's being offered. And a lot of, you
		
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			know, in recent times on social media, on
		
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			TikTok,
		
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			du'aat and content producers that are kind of
		
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			looking at the Quran and saying this is
		
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44
			definitely referring to what's happening right now has
		
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46
			become a very common conversation.
		
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			To remind everyone, our discussion right now is
		
00:14:49 --> 00:14:52
			studying the Quran yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So
		
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			this was very much what's happening today.
		
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			Right? This is how it's being looked at
		
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			today by many people. So now we're gonna
		
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			kind of I'm gonna hand it over to
		
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			Sheikh Hassan to take the next step in
		
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			our conversation.
		
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			Thank you for that. So what we're understanding
		
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			from this, is that the contemporary
		
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			perspective or outlook of these verses are that
		
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			these 2
		
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			events, 1 took place at the time of
		
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			the prophet.
		
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			The other is what many interpret as to
		
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			what is taking place today in terms of
		
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			power
		
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			* and then the loss of that. What
		
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			I'd like to do now is turn to
		
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			doctor Suhaib Saeed, who's well versed in our
		
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			classical tradition
		
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			and our classical clothing as well, as you
		
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			can see. May Allah bless him.
		
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			He's a graduate of the 1 of the
		
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			most esteemed seats of Islamic
		
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			learning, Al Azhar University. I'd like to turn
		
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			to you, Doctor. Suhaib, and
		
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			if you can kindly share with us what
		
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			were the classical perspectives
		
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			of these few areas about
		
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			ifsad and corruption on earth twice, losing power
		
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			twice, the understanding of Ibad, here the contemporary
		
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			understanding is that this refers to believers and
		
00:16:00 --> 00:16:02
			at the time of the prophet to the
		
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			companions,
		
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			does classical interpretation
		
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			agree, disagree with this or not?
		
00:16:09 --> 00:16:10
			Bismillah, rahman.
		
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			Bismillah.
		
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			Jazakalakheeran,
		
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			it's almost everyday I come across 1 of
		
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			these reflections where someone is saying,
		
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			in order for us to give victory
		
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			to Palestine and to justice nowadays, we have
		
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			to become Ibad like those Ibad.
		
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			We have to become Ibad,
		
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			servants of Allah, righteous worshippers of Allah, like
		
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34
			those Ibad before.
		
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			And every time I hear this, I scratch
		
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			my turban
		
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			because
		
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			I'm someone who works with old books and
		
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			the books of tafsir and the classical tradition.
		
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			I'm interested in the old and I'm interested
		
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46
			in the new as well.
		
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49
			But when I open the books of tafsir,
		
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			I find that these Ibad,
		
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			who I talked about in the ayat of
		
00:16:53 --> 00:16:54
			Sur al Isra,
		
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			are not righteous worshipers of Allah.
		
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00
			We shouldn't aspire to be like them because
		
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			they were unbelievers.
		
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			Even though the name Ibad is used for
		
00:17:05 --> 00:17:06
			them, that's the point that we're obviously going
		
00:17:06 --> 00:17:07
			to need to discuss.
		
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			So when we look at the books,
		
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			we will find that there's a certain amount
		
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			which is agreed amongst the entirety of the
		
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			tafsir tradition, at least up until
		
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			the last century.
		
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			And the agreed part of this is,
		
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			these are 2 events which took place before
		
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26
			the revelation of the Quran. So when the
		
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			ayatul Surah Al Surah were revealed,
		
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			they're talking about something that has already happened.
		
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33
			And we can say that this is a
		
00:17:33 --> 00:17:34
			kind of assumption about the ayat.
		
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37
			Right? So it wasn't necessarily a point of
		
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39
			debate or a question
		
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41
			that they were all having to think about.
		
00:17:41 --> 00:17:42
			Is this something in the past or is
		
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45
			this something in the future? It was just
		
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47
			quite evident that the way these ayats are
		
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			flowing and the point that's being made
		
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			is about some things that happened in the
		
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			history of Bani Israel that they have to
		
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			pay attention to, the ones nowadays who are
		
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			hearing these ayat being revealed.
		
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59
			They have to pay attention to something in
		
00:17:59 --> 00:18:00
			their own history.
		
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03
			And when they try to identify which
		
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			particular moments in history, there is a little
		
00:18:06 --> 00:18:07
			bit of variation here.
		
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10
			If we go back through the entire tafsir
		
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			tradition, there's so many works.
		
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			We can go back to the earliest
		
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			ones, very important early tafsirs like the tafsir
		
00:18:16 --> 00:18:18
			of al Tabari, which has been mentioned.
		
00:18:19 --> 00:18:20
			And part of the value of the tafsir
		
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22
			of Tabari is he gives you a window
		
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			onto
		
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24
			the narrations
		
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			from the salaf. That is to say, sometimes
		
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			from the prophet salaw al salaw al salawam
		
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			himself,
		
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			sometimes from the Sahaba and the Tabi'in and
		
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			the generation
		
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			after.
		
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			So it's interesting to see how did they
		
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			understand this.
		
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			And in fact,
		
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			and sadly, we don't have something directly from
		
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			the prophet
		
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			Certainly not anything that is authentic
		
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			with regards to these ayaats and who,
		
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			these Ibad are, and what were the specific
		
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			events, and what were the specific crimes that
		
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			led to those events.
		
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			So we have to see what was said
		
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			by others.
		
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			So amongst the Sahaba, amongst the Tabi'in,
		
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			there are things that they have talked about
		
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			which then get recorded in our books,
		
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			and we can now examine all these centuries
		
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11
			later. So this is the value and the
		
00:19:11 --> 00:19:12
			beauty of our tradition.
		
00:19:12 --> 00:19:14
			We can see that those who were closest
		
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			to the time of revelation
		
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			had things
		
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			to say. And then people later in our
		
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			tradition, in our entire history also had things
		
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			to say. And sometimes the people later would
		
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			look at those earlier statements and revise them
		
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28
			and critique them and improve upon them and
		
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29
			build upon them.
		
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			But what's interesting is that the salaf,
		
00:19:32 --> 00:19:33
			the early generations,
		
00:19:34 --> 00:19:35
			they didn't have something
		
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38
			absolutely firm to go on here. They didn't
		
00:19:38 --> 00:19:39
			have a direct teaching of the prophet
		
00:19:41 --> 00:19:43
			But it can be sometimes that when the
		
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46
			Sahaba tell us something, we can figure out
		
00:19:46 --> 00:19:47
			that they must have got that from the
		
00:19:47 --> 00:19:48
			prophet
		
00:19:49 --> 00:19:50
			But at other times, we can see,
		
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53
			well, it's quite evident and quite natural that
		
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55
			they could have got it from somewhere else.
		
00:19:55 --> 00:19:57
			When they see a'at that are talking about
		
00:19:57 --> 00:19:58
			Bani Israel,
		
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01
			it's natural that they would go and ask
		
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03
			the converts from the people of the book,
		
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05
			those who have become Muslims, Abdullah bin Salam
		
00:20:05 --> 00:20:06
			and others.
		
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08
			Or indeed others that they might speak
		
00:20:09 --> 00:20:10
			to, who would tell them, well, this is
		
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12
			what we know of. This is what we
		
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			talk about.
		
00:20:13 --> 00:20:16
			We have very famous events in which
		
00:20:16 --> 00:20:19
			Jerusalem was besieged and sacked, and we were
		
00:20:19 --> 00:20:22
			driven out, and we were put into captivity.
		
00:20:22 --> 00:20:24
			And these things weigh heavily in our history
		
00:20:25 --> 00:20:26
			and upon our identity
		
00:20:26 --> 00:20:27
			as Jews.
		
00:20:28 --> 00:20:28
			So
		
00:20:29 --> 00:20:29
			generally,
		
00:20:30 --> 00:20:31
			the opinion has,
		
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34
			converged around saying that there were 2 events.
		
00:20:34 --> 00:20:35
			The first of them
		
00:20:36 --> 00:20:37
			was in the 6th century
		
00:20:38 --> 00:20:39
			before Isa alaihis salam.
		
00:20:40 --> 00:20:40
			So around
		
00:20:41 --> 00:20:41
			597
		
00:20:42 --> 00:20:43
			BCE,
		
00:20:44 --> 00:20:45
			there is the Babylonian,
		
00:20:46 --> 00:20:48
			siege and captivity
		
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51
			and this is led by someone called Nebuchadnezzar
		
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54
			or in Arabic, Buqd An Nasr.
		
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58
			So mostly this is identified with his time.
		
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01
			And then the second event is generally understood
		
00:21:01 --> 00:21:01
			to be
		
00:21:02 --> 00:21:03
			after the time of
		
00:21:04 --> 00:21:05
			around
		
00:21:05 --> 00:21:08
			70 CE or AD 70, the year 70
		
00:21:08 --> 00:21:09
			after
		
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11
			the birth of Isa approximately,
		
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14
			there was the siege now done by the
		
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17
			Romans. So the first 1, the Babylonian,
		
00:21:17 --> 00:21:18
			and the second,
		
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21
			the Roman siege and captivity.
		
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24
			So generally, this is what's understood and later
		
00:21:24 --> 00:21:25
			Mufassilin
		
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27
			would tend to agree with this.
		
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29
			So we have to understand this is not
		
00:21:29 --> 00:21:30
			based
		
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31
			on
		
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33
			a clear teaching of the prophet
		
00:21:34 --> 00:21:36
			but it's based on an understanding of history
		
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38
			according to the information that they had. And
		
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41
			they would build upon this, and they would
		
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43
			be open to revising that.
		
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45
			So I hope that they would also be
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48
			open to us asking this question later on.
		
00:21:48 --> 00:21:49
			A couple of very crucial things I just
		
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51
			want to draw attention to about what we
		
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54
			find in the tradition around this. Number 1,
		
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56
			we don't seem to have anything from the
		
00:21:56 --> 00:21:56
			sahaba,
		
00:21:57 --> 00:21:58
			that I've seen anyway,
		
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00
			where they've said, Hey, you know what? These
		
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03
			ayaat are about us. You see this
		
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07
			that's us. That's us. We did that.
		
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09
			Or that it was a prediction that was
		
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11
			about what they were about to do.
		
00:22:11 --> 00:22:12
			So
		
00:22:12 --> 00:22:14
			the absence of evidence
		
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16
			is not evidence of absence,
		
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18
			if you know this expression. Right?
		
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20
			So the fact that they
		
00:22:20 --> 00:22:21
			haven't said
		
00:22:22 --> 00:22:23
			it or the fact that we don't find
		
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25
			that statement doesn't mean that it's not about
		
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27
			them. But I think here we would probably
		
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30
			expect them to have said something. Yeah. Yeah.
		
00:22:30 --> 00:22:32
			And second and secondly, just to say that
		
00:22:32 --> 00:22:33
			they also pointed out that
		
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35
			where they did come in is just after
		
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38
			this. After these 2 events, then Allah says,
		
00:22:39 --> 00:22:39
			Perhaps
		
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45
			your Lord will have mercy on you. But
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47
			if you return to what you are doing,
		
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49
			then we will return to what we did
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:49
			to you.
		
00:22:50 --> 00:22:51
			If you go back, we will go back.
		
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53
			If you repeat, we will repeat. So here
		
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55
			they say, that's us.
		
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58
			Because then what happened is, they went back
		
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01
			to their mischief by opposing the messenger Muhammad
		
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03
			sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. So Allah dealt with
		
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05
			them at the hands of the believers.
		
00:23:06 --> 00:23:07
			1 thing I wanted to add
		
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10
			for clarification and thank you for this.
		
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12
			And inshallah as you'll see this will turn
		
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14
			more and more into a conversation.
		
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16
			Some of you might be confused. How can
		
00:23:16 --> 00:23:18
			Allah talk about disbelievers
		
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20
			as Ibad servants
		
00:23:20 --> 00:23:21
			of ours?
		
00:23:22 --> 00:23:23
			You know Allah says,
		
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27
			Nobody knows the armies of Allah except Him.
		
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29
			The way you can interpret that and it's
		
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31
			very in line with the principles of Allah's
		
00:23:31 --> 00:23:31
			book
		
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33
			is that Allah in His plans
		
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43
			And they don't even know that they're serving
		
00:23:43 --> 00:23:44
			Allah's plan.
		
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47
			Right? So even consciously they think they're rebelling
		
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49
			against Allah, but they haven't escaped
		
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52
			the grand plan of Allah. And so the
		
00:23:52 --> 00:23:54
			people like when when the 2 interpretations
		
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58
			of almost 600 years before Isa and almost
		
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00
			70 years after Isa, the 2 destructions of
		
00:24:00 --> 00:24:01
			Jerusalem,
		
00:24:02 --> 00:24:05
			the people that destroyed were disbelievers, were the
		
00:24:05 --> 00:24:06
			Babylonians and the Romans.
		
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10
			But they were doing something in accordance with
		
00:24:10 --> 00:24:11
			Allah's plan
		
00:24:11 --> 00:24:12
			and they don't even know that they are
		
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14
			servants of Allah. And that's why
		
00:24:15 --> 00:24:18
			is different from just technically Ibadana.
		
00:24:18 --> 00:24:22
			Ibadana would be our servants, but Ibadan lana
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:23
			would be something like some servants
		
00:24:24 --> 00:24:25
			at our disposal.
		
00:24:26 --> 00:24:28
			Servants that did what we wanted them to
		
00:24:28 --> 00:24:29
			do, kind of.
		
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31
			And that's how it's if I'm saying this
		
00:24:31 --> 00:24:34
			correctly, doctor Saib, this is how it's been
		
00:24:34 --> 00:24:35
			looked at classically
		
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39
			on the Ibad comment. Yeah, absolutely. So Ibad
		
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41
			in general just means any of Allah's creation.
		
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44
			And then here it would be those who
		
00:24:44 --> 00:24:45
			are at the disposal
		
00:24:46 --> 00:24:47
			of Allah's plan.
		
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50
			And I don't like to step on any
		
00:24:50 --> 00:24:51
			biblical territory of others,
		
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54
			but what's very interesting is that
		
00:24:54 --> 00:24:56
			1 of the predictions, 1 of the areas
		
00:24:56 --> 00:24:57
			that is often identified
		
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01
			as an example of the kind of prediction
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:02
			that could be matching what is referred to
		
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04
			here, because the Quran is saying
		
00:25:04 --> 00:25:05
			we
		
00:25:06 --> 00:25:08
			we predicted for them and we decreed for
		
00:25:08 --> 00:25:09
			them in the book.
		
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11
			So in the book of Jeremiah, it is
		
00:25:11 --> 00:25:12
			mentioned
		
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15
			who is mentioned? Nebuchadnezzar,
		
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18
			and he is called my servant, Nebuchadnezzar.
		
00:25:19 --> 00:25:20
			And when you look at the commentaries as
		
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22
			well, they explain it just like what we
		
00:25:22 --> 00:25:23
			just explained,
		
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25
			that God has some servants
		
00:25:25 --> 00:25:27
			who don't believe in him,
		
00:25:27 --> 00:25:28
			but do His will.
		
00:25:30 --> 00:25:31
			Thank you.
		
00:25:32 --> 00:25:33
			Turning to Doctor. Saqib
		
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36
			here, what would you how would you
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39
			engage with this discussion around the contemporary and
		
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41
			the classical interpretation
		
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44
			vis a vis your own research around
		
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46
			alternative sources of interpretation
		
00:25:47 --> 00:25:48
			from external
		
00:25:49 --> 00:25:50
			to the Muslim space. So I know you
		
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52
			have extensive research in
		
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56
			biblical studies, you're involved with the
		
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58
			Centre For Muslim Christian Studies at Oxford.
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:02
			Do we have anything that sheds light
		
00:26:02 --> 00:26:04
			on a possible interpretation
		
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06
			from external sources
		
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08
			in resolving this tension?
		
00:26:13 --> 00:26:15
			Assalamu alaikum. Thank you so much.
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:16
			So
		
00:26:17 --> 00:26:19
			looking if you come to this surah
		
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23
			or this passage from the perspective of modern
		
00:26:23 --> 00:26:24
			Western scholarship,
		
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26
			The sort of questions
		
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30
			that modern Western scholars would ask, I think
		
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32
			these are these are this is a good
		
00:26:32 --> 00:26:33
			way to approach the Surah whether, you know,
		
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35
			whether you're looking at it from an academic
		
00:26:35 --> 00:26:36
			perspective
		
00:26:36 --> 00:26:37
			or from a devotional
		
00:26:37 --> 00:26:38
			perspective, is
		
00:26:40 --> 00:26:40
			firstly
		
00:26:41 --> 00:26:43
			when the surah is being proclaimed, what is
		
00:26:43 --> 00:26:44
			in the mind of the audience?
		
00:26:45 --> 00:26:46
			What are they thinking? What kind of ideas
		
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48
			are coming to their mind?
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50
			And so as soon as you begin the
		
00:26:50 --> 00:26:50
			surah,
		
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53
			Allah begins the surah with this journey that
		
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56
			the prophet goes on from
		
00:26:56 --> 00:26:57
			al Masjid
		
00:26:58 --> 00:27:00
			al Haram to al Masjid al Aqsa, al
		
00:27:00 --> 00:27:03
			ladhee barak na hollahu. This is a distant
		
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05
			mosque or distant place of worship
		
00:27:06 --> 00:27:07
			which is in a land that is blessed.
		
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10
			Immediately, what comes to mind in the audience,
		
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12
			this is the holy land. This is a
		
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14
			land that has
		
00:27:14 --> 00:27:15
			significance in terms
		
00:27:17 --> 00:27:20
			of God how God interacted with humanity in
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:20
			the past.
		
00:27:22 --> 00:27:22
			And so
		
00:27:23 --> 00:27:23
			then when
		
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26
			the Surah then goes on to talk about
		
00:27:26 --> 00:27:27
			the 2
		
00:27:28 --> 00:27:29
			destructions of the Bani Israel
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:32
			after it's mentioned the holy land already,
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35
			it's very difficult to imagine that
		
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38
			any other thing comes to mind than the
		
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40
			2 destructions of this temple. The temple has
		
00:27:40 --> 00:27:41
			already been introduced at the start of the
		
00:27:41 --> 00:27:42
			Surah.
		
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45
			The Holy Temple, the the Masjid Al Aqsa
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:46
			that
		
00:27:46 --> 00:27:47
			the prophet
		
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49
			has been taken on this night journey to,
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52
			and that this the history of that temple
		
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54
			is well known. It's well known to Bani
		
00:27:54 --> 00:27:55
			Israel and as soon as you talk about
		
00:27:55 --> 00:27:56
			the 2 destructions,
		
00:27:57 --> 00:27:58
			that's what comes to mind immediately. Doc, for
		
00:27:58 --> 00:27:59
			the ease of the audience,
		
00:28:00 --> 00:28:02
			so the the biblical reference to the temple
		
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04
			is the same as our reference to the
		
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06
			Masjid. So when you're hearing the word temple,
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:07
			don't think of a Buddhist temple. Okay.
		
00:28:09 --> 00:28:09
			Yeah.
		
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13
			Yes. So so that's I think the first
		
00:28:13 --> 00:28:14
			thing to say that,
		
00:28:16 --> 00:28:17
			1 has to look at what are what
		
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19
			are the well known stories, the well known
		
00:28:19 --> 00:28:20
			history,
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22
			that the audience is familiar with when the
		
00:28:22 --> 00:28:23
			Quran is being proclaimed.
		
00:28:24 --> 00:28:25
			And then the second thing to think about
		
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28
			is, there's a far greater insistence
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31
			both in which is nice as a convergence
		
00:28:31 --> 00:28:32
			between how
		
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35
			modern academics are looking at this at the
		
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37
			Quran and how Muslims have been looking at
		
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39
			the Quran as well for the past century,
		
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41
			century and a half, which is sort of
		
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43
			an insistence on the coherence of the text,
		
00:28:43 --> 00:28:44
			the flow of the text,
		
00:28:45 --> 00:28:46
			rather than looking
		
00:28:47 --> 00:28:48
			at ayat in isolation.
		
00:28:49 --> 00:28:51
			So, if the Surah begins with a reference
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:52
			to the
		
00:28:53 --> 00:28:56
			Jerusalem Temple, the Heikal Suleiman, the Temple of
		
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58
			Solomon, the Masjid that's built by Suleiman
		
00:28:58 --> 00:28:59
			the center
		
00:29:00 --> 00:29:00
			of Jewish
		
00:29:01 --> 00:29:01
			worship,
		
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04
			and then it starts talking about the 2
		
00:29:05 --> 00:29:07
			destructions, and everyone knows that the temple is
		
00:29:07 --> 00:29:08
			destroyed twice,
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10
			and then it finishes with,
		
00:29:15 --> 00:29:16
			What seems to be,
		
00:29:17 --> 00:29:19
			what the ayah seems to be saying is,
		
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21
			you know, that they, in the second destruction,
		
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24
			will enter this masjid, this temple, this place
		
00:29:24 --> 00:29:26
			of worship, just as they entered it the
		
00:29:26 --> 00:29:29
			first time. Well, that first time surely must
		
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31
			be referring to first destruction that was mentioned
		
00:29:31 --> 00:29:31
			earlier.
		
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34
			So the flow of the Surah seems
		
00:29:35 --> 00:29:37
			both the flow of the Surah and the
		
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40
			well known history of Bani Israel both point
		
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42
			in the same direction that this is talking
		
00:29:42 --> 00:29:43
			about
		
00:29:43 --> 00:29:45
			the past events that
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47
			Bani Israel are familiar with.
		
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51
			So you would add credence to the to
		
00:29:51 --> 00:29:53
			the argument that these are 2 events that
		
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55
			took place pre Nabuwa or the pre the
		
00:29:55 --> 00:29:55
			Prophet's,
		
00:29:57 --> 00:29:57
			error,
		
00:29:58 --> 00:29:59
			and thereby
		
00:29:59 --> 00:30:00
			perhaps
		
00:30:01 --> 00:30:03
			not necessarily undermining but opposing the contemporary,
		
00:30:04 --> 00:30:04
			interpretation
		
00:30:05 --> 00:30:05
			of this.
		
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08
			Do you have any thoughts on this, Sadat
		
00:30:08 --> 00:30:08
			Noaman?
		
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11
			Yeah. I have a few thoughts on this.
		
00:30:12 --> 00:30:14
			From a from a language perspective,
		
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17
			somebody might simplistically look at the word,
		
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22
			so for example, and is used as
		
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26
			a word which translates in English as when.
		
00:30:27 --> 00:30:28
			But the thing in English is when you
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30
			use the word when, you can use it
		
00:30:30 --> 00:30:31
			for the future and you can use it
		
00:30:31 --> 00:30:32
			for the past.
		
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35
			So when I finish this, I'm going to
		
00:30:35 --> 00:30:37
			have some orange juice is the future,
		
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40
			and when you came I became upset
		
00:30:40 --> 00:30:41
			is the past.
		
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44
			Right. So when is the same. But in
		
00:30:44 --> 00:30:45
			Arabic, generally,
		
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50
			is used when associating when with the past,
		
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54
			and idha is used when associating when with
		
00:30:54 --> 00:30:55
			the future.
		
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57
			Now because idha is being used in these
		
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59
			ayats, somebody might be able to argue well
		
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02
			because idha is being used and that's generally
		
00:31:02 --> 00:31:03
			associated with
		
00:31:03 --> 00:31:04
			the future,
		
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06
			this must be talking about the future.
		
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09
			The problem with that is, as Doctor. Saib
		
00:31:09 --> 00:31:11
			and I were discussing previously also,
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:15
			Allah started by saying we told Bani Israel
		
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17
			in the book. So is that now or
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:18
			way back?
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21
			We told them that you will do this
		
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23
			and then you will do this and then
		
00:31:23 --> 00:31:24
			this will happen.
		
00:31:25 --> 00:31:27
			So the will is perfectly fine. The future
		
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30
			is perfectly fine but it's still referring to
		
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32
			the past as far as we're concerned
		
00:31:32 --> 00:31:34
			because they were told 1000 of years ago
		
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36
			this will happen then this will happen and
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:37
			it already happened.
		
00:31:38 --> 00:31:41
			So that's 1 issue. The second issue is
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:42
			the way
		
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44
			if we take the contemporary
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:45
			interpretation
		
00:31:45 --> 00:31:46
			and we say we really want this to
		
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49
			work, the problem with that will become we
		
00:31:49 --> 00:31:50
			have to describe the Prophet
		
00:31:52 --> 00:31:52
			and the Sahaba
		
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55
			with words that don't really seem to fit
		
00:31:55 --> 00:31:56
			their character
		
00:31:57 --> 00:31:58
			because it says the phrasing are
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02
			So it's kind of servants at our service
		
00:32:03 --> 00:32:05
			as opposed to the prophet and the sahaba
		
00:32:05 --> 00:32:07
			being qualified with more dignity ibaadana.
		
00:32:08 --> 00:32:09
			That's the first problem.
		
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11
			And why would they be made nakiala, like
		
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14
			some servants that we have. Why say some
		
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16
			servants? You could argue great servants if you
		
00:32:16 --> 00:32:19
			really wanna be creative, but it seems odd
		
00:32:19 --> 00:32:21
			for the Muslims to be talked of in
		
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23
			this way. The second issue becomes,
		
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27
			when Allah describes them that they're capable of
		
00:32:27 --> 00:32:28
			great war
		
00:32:29 --> 00:32:30
			and they broke into homes.
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35
			That doesn't sound like the kind of ethics
		
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36
			of war that Muslims follow,
		
00:32:37 --> 00:32:38
			that they break into homes.
		
00:32:39 --> 00:32:39
			Right?
		
00:32:39 --> 00:32:41
			And that does sound a lot like the
		
00:32:41 --> 00:32:44
			biblical descriptions of what happened when the temple
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45
			was decimated,
		
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48
			like civilians and, you know, combatants, there's no
		
00:32:48 --> 00:32:51
			there's no distinction between them. But of course
		
00:32:51 --> 00:32:52
			in our religion we make that distinction,
		
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55
			Right? And we attribute that kind of distinction
		
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57
			to the messenger of Allah
		
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00
			So it become then then people have to
		
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03
			interpret this ayah to kind of be softer.
		
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05
			So make it sound a little No. They
		
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08
			weren't breaking down into homes. They were investigating
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10
			all the homes or they were probing the
		
00:33:10 --> 00:33:11
			homes. Now we have to come up with
		
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13
			an interpretation that sounds like maybe this can
		
00:33:13 --> 00:33:15
			fit the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam but
		
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17
			I feel like that's too much gymnastics to
		
00:33:17 --> 00:33:19
			make it work. And I believe some of
		
00:33:19 --> 00:33:21
			you might have other thoughts on some of
		
00:33:21 --> 00:33:22
			the reasons why
		
00:33:22 --> 00:33:23
			the the contemporary
		
00:33:24 --> 00:33:24
			analysis
		
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27
			doesn't seem to add up. Even though it
		
00:33:27 --> 00:33:29
			sounds very attractive to us because we're in
		
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30
			the middle of this situation,
		
00:33:31 --> 00:33:32
			it doesn't seem to add up. So I
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:33
			wanna hear some pros and cons from the
		
00:33:33 --> 00:33:35
			rest of us also inshallah.
		
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38
			Sure. I mean, we just just to build
		
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40
			on what you just said about language, Ida
		
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42
			and also Summa, some of the
		
00:33:42 --> 00:33:43
			contemporary,
		
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46
			exponents of this, and also the fact that
		
00:33:46 --> 00:33:47
			you mentioned about Diyar and this is not
		
00:33:47 --> 00:33:49
			the ethics of warfare, they make a distinction
		
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51
			between Diyar and Bayut. For Diyar, they speak
		
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54
			about the open space, the market space, the
		
00:33:54 --> 00:33:55
			open dwellings.
		
00:33:55 --> 00:33:58
			Again, I'm just exposing the contemporary
		
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01
			argument on this, whereas had to do with
		
00:34:01 --> 00:34:02
			the houses and this is, you know, sort
		
00:34:02 --> 00:34:05
			of not befitting Islamic ethics of warfare. But
		
00:34:05 --> 00:34:06
			anyway, I'll turn to
		
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09
			Doctor. Dawood Bakar to share any reflections you
		
00:34:09 --> 00:34:10
			may
		
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13
			have on this contemporary interpretations or reflections on
		
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16
			the classical interpretation of this and then move
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:17
			on to doctor Suhayban,
		
00:34:17 --> 00:34:18
			doctor Saqib.
		
00:34:19 --> 00:34:19
			Okay.
		
00:34:22 --> 00:34:23
			Alhamdulillah
		
00:34:23 --> 00:34:24
			wabehine Stein.
		
00:34:25 --> 00:34:28
			Her Royal Highness, the Cooper Matsuri Leonard
		
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33
			Panelist and distinguished audience, brothers and sisters.
		
00:34:37 --> 00:34:37
			Alhamdulillah,
		
00:34:38 --> 00:34:39
			we are gathering
		
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41
			on this panel to
		
00:34:41 --> 00:34:42
			unlock
		
00:34:43 --> 00:34:43
			perhaps
		
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48
			the very voice of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala
		
00:34:48 --> 00:34:48
			in term
		
00:34:49 --> 00:34:51
			of what is actually intended by Allah Subhanahu
		
00:34:51 --> 00:34:52
			Wa Ta'ala.
		
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55
			And this discourse is going to be going
		
00:34:55 --> 00:34:58
			on until we die. In fact, my great
		
00:34:58 --> 00:34:59
			teachers were saying to me that
		
00:35:00 --> 00:35:02
			even when we are, you know, when we
		
00:35:02 --> 00:35:02
			are
		
00:35:03 --> 00:35:04
			in the day in the hereafter,
		
00:35:05 --> 00:35:06
			you know, being
		
00:35:07 --> 00:35:09
			risen back, We're still debating about the meaning
		
00:35:09 --> 00:35:11
			of the Quran when we are in this
		
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13
			world because this the meaning of the Quran
		
00:35:13 --> 00:35:14
			is never
		
00:35:14 --> 00:35:15
			endless.
		
00:35:15 --> 00:35:16
			It's unstoppable
		
00:35:17 --> 00:35:18
			to get some insights
		
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21
			about the meaning of each and every ire
		
00:35:21 --> 00:35:23
			that our great scholars in the past,
		
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27
			the contemporary and the future will be engaging
		
00:35:27 --> 00:35:27
			in.
		
00:35:28 --> 00:35:29
			I think
		
00:35:29 --> 00:35:31
			if I were to
		
00:35:31 --> 00:35:32
			interject and
		
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35
			make some contribution to the discussion of today's
		
00:35:35 --> 00:35:36
			session,
		
00:35:36 --> 00:35:37
			I would like
		
00:35:37 --> 00:35:39
			to pick up some of the issues
		
00:35:39 --> 00:35:43
			away from the historical, away from the classical
		
00:35:43 --> 00:35:44
			and contemporary debates
		
00:35:45 --> 00:35:47
			on the 2 occasions which were mentioned by
		
00:35:47 --> 00:35:49
			Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.
		
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51
			I tried to pick up some of the,
		
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54
			but sometime in the history is not, the
		
00:35:54 --> 00:35:56
			history is not important, but the lesson from
		
00:35:56 --> 00:35:57
			the history is more important.
		
00:35:57 --> 00:35:59
			And this is something that we have learned
		
00:35:59 --> 00:36:01
			a lot in the entire Quran
		
00:36:02 --> 00:36:03
			in the case of, Balqis
		
00:36:04 --> 00:36:06
			and Prophet Soleiman when
		
00:36:07 --> 00:36:09
			Balqis was trying to understand the psyche of
		
00:36:09 --> 00:36:10
			the great emperors.
		
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13
			How do they think about conquering
		
00:36:14 --> 00:36:15
			a country
		
00:36:15 --> 00:36:18
			or a village for that matter? And as
		
00:36:18 --> 00:36:18
			you
		
00:36:19 --> 00:36:20
			know
		
00:36:21 --> 00:36:21
			in
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:23
			the
		
00:36:24 --> 00:36:25
			Quran,
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28
			The very nature of the king and the
		
00:36:28 --> 00:36:29
			emperor when they
		
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32
			enter into the into the villages or the
		
00:36:32 --> 00:36:34
			cities, they will humiliate,
		
00:36:34 --> 00:36:37
			the people and so and so forth. And
		
00:36:37 --> 00:36:38
			Allah has endorsed
		
00:36:38 --> 00:36:40
			that kind of psyche of the kings and
		
00:36:40 --> 00:36:43
			emperors. So we have to learn the psyche,
		
00:36:43 --> 00:36:44
			the lesson from the Quran.
		
00:36:45 --> 00:36:47
			I think in the interest of time, I'll
		
00:36:47 --> 00:36:49
			pick up some if not all the
		
00:36:49 --> 00:36:51
			thought I have you know been gathering from
		
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54
			the great scholars, my fellow panelists. I think
		
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56
			the word I
		
00:36:57 --> 00:36:59
			mean it's not a it's not a simple
		
00:36:59 --> 00:36:59
			victory.
		
00:37:00 --> 00:37:01
			We have to
		
00:37:01 --> 00:37:01
			underpin
		
00:37:03 --> 00:37:06
			when and how this Oulu 1 Kabi, Oulu
		
00:37:07 --> 00:37:08
			1 Kabi, right,
		
00:37:09 --> 00:37:11
			in the Quran. So there are many wars
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:12
			in the past.
		
00:37:12 --> 00:37:13
			I was fascinated,
		
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18
			you know, when I put my hand on
		
00:37:18 --> 00:37:19
			the book
		
00:37:19 --> 00:37:20
			called Kitab ul Iqthivar.
		
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23
			I think a very great scholar,
		
00:37:24 --> 00:37:26
			Usama bin Moqis Al Kinani
		
00:37:27 --> 00:37:28
			as Shazari.
		
00:37:28 --> 00:37:31
			He was living in the in the fraternity
		
00:37:31 --> 00:37:33
			of Al Quds. In the old time when
		
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35
			Muslim were fighting the Asolibiyan,
		
00:37:35 --> 00:37:36
			what we call in English?
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40
			Crusade. The crusades. They're coming from,
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:43
			from England, from Scotland, from whatever will, coming
		
00:37:43 --> 00:37:45
			to to this part of the world fighting
		
00:37:45 --> 00:37:46
			the Muslim.
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49
			And during that time, there were ceasefire from
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52
			time to time. When we when they had
		
00:37:52 --> 00:37:52
			the ceasefire,
		
00:37:53 --> 00:37:56
			the non Muslim, the crusade were able to
		
00:37:56 --> 00:37:57
			see and observe the Muslim
		
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00
			and this is a very living documentary
		
00:38:01 --> 00:38:03
			book that was to be translated into all
		
00:38:03 --> 00:38:03
			languages.
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09
			He died in
		
00:38:09 --> 00:38:10
			118880.
		
00:38:11 --> 00:38:13
			In that book, he mentioned about ceasefire, the
		
00:38:13 --> 00:38:16
			war and how the the crusade were learning
		
00:38:16 --> 00:38:19
			from the Muslim about everything, medical,
		
00:38:20 --> 00:38:24
			health, you know, hygiene and how to take
		
00:38:24 --> 00:38:25
			shower
		
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27
			and how they cut their hand when they
		
00:38:27 --> 00:38:27
			got injured
		
00:38:28 --> 00:38:30
			and some are saying they are very stupid
		
00:38:30 --> 00:38:32
			people because they know how to treat their
		
00:38:32 --> 00:38:34
			soldiers well. Interesting book. I want to to
		
00:38:34 --> 00:38:36
			say that there were wars in the past
		
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39
			but there should be 1 important war or
		
00:38:39 --> 00:38:40
			2 important occasion
		
00:38:41 --> 00:38:43
			when the Bani Israel will
		
00:38:43 --> 00:38:45
			be described by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, or
		
00:38:45 --> 00:38:47
			has been described by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala
		
00:38:47 --> 00:38:50
			as the great dominant and the great hegemony
		
00:38:51 --> 00:38:51
			and the great
		
00:38:52 --> 00:38:54
			event of all wars and this is something
		
00:38:55 --> 00:38:55
			scholars,
		
00:38:56 --> 00:38:57
			historians are still debating
		
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00
			when and how this great war will be
		
00:39:00 --> 00:39:03
			coming in the future. The second element,
		
00:39:05 --> 00:39:08
			the description of Aibah Adelana, Uli Baq Sin.
		
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11
			I think we have heard about the scholars
		
00:39:12 --> 00:39:13
			contemporary and classical.
		
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15
			Who are these people? Are they in the
		
00:39:15 --> 00:39:17
			past? Are they to relate to the prophet
		
00:39:17 --> 00:39:18
			Muhammad
		
00:39:19 --> 00:39:20
			or are they
		
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23
			still not coming yet just to fight? And
		
00:39:23 --> 00:39:25
			I will agree as a country scholar with
		
00:39:25 --> 00:39:28
			the know the moderator that the word Doctor
		
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31
			and Hilal Doctor, we need to reinterpret
		
00:39:32 --> 00:39:34
			giving the the meaning
		
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37
			of the day. Nowadays the war is not
		
00:39:37 --> 00:39:38
			the the normal war.
		
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41
			Man fighting man is a drone war.
		
00:39:41 --> 00:39:43
			Now they have to speak and the drone
		
00:39:43 --> 00:39:45
			will be able to
		
00:39:45 --> 00:39:47
			see every single thing in the house,
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:49
			every single thing
		
00:39:49 --> 00:39:51
			even a small nail in the house. In
		
00:39:51 --> 00:39:52
			fact, nowadays
		
00:39:52 --> 00:39:54
			whatever is happening now in Gaza is all
		
00:39:54 --> 00:39:55
			about
		
00:39:56 --> 00:39:57
			drone, is about
		
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00
			you know the new technology and what have
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:00
			you.
		
00:40:01 --> 00:40:02
			What is
		
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04
			exciting to me is the word Oli Baqsim.
		
00:40:05 --> 00:40:07
			I think we need to look into this
		
00:40:07 --> 00:40:08
			meaning,
		
00:40:08 --> 00:40:09
			this idea to understand
		
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13
			are we preparing only vaccine in our society?
		
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16
			Are we preparing the technology that required
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19
			to really fight the war when the war
		
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21
			take place? And this is a very important
		
00:40:21 --> 00:40:22
			lesson.
		
00:40:22 --> 00:40:25
			I mean I'm also an educationist and also
		
00:40:25 --> 00:40:25
			an academician.
		
00:40:26 --> 00:40:28
			We have not in some Muslim country, we
		
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29
			have not
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:32
			put the right dosage of education
		
00:40:33 --> 00:40:36
			on preparing for the high technology or weaponry.
		
00:40:36 --> 00:40:38
			And this is something that the Quran wanted
		
00:40:39 --> 00:40:40
			to challenge us. Look,
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43
			everyone that we have to prepare
		
00:40:44 --> 00:40:46
			whoever they are, Ibadan Lelana or Ibaduna,
		
00:40:47 --> 00:40:48
			who has
		
00:40:49 --> 00:40:50
			who has the power
		
00:40:50 --> 00:40:51
			to really
		
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55
			create the fear and to create the the
		
00:40:55 --> 00:40:56
			the the respect
		
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59
			of your enemies and of course the enemies
		
00:40:59 --> 00:41:00
			of the world
		
00:41:00 --> 00:41:00
			is,
		
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04
			the the the Israel and the Zunis. And
		
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07
			the third point I wanted to, you
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:09
			know, mention,
		
00:41:09 --> 00:41:11
			I think at the end of the day,
		
00:41:12 --> 00:41:13
			I have
		
00:41:13 --> 00:41:14
			to have the personal interpretation,
		
00:41:15 --> 00:41:17
			the war is not about the war of
		
00:41:17 --> 00:41:17
			geography,
		
00:41:18 --> 00:41:19
			it's not about
		
00:41:20 --> 00:41:23
			you know, in Gaza, in Palestine or what
		
00:41:23 --> 00:41:24
			have you. And this is,
		
00:41:26 --> 00:41:29
			you know, a very important statement because some
		
00:41:29 --> 00:41:32
			of the superpower did control by proxy. I'm
		
00:41:32 --> 00:41:34
			sure you are you are family with this
		
00:41:34 --> 00:41:36
			statement. When we talk about the Zionist Israel,
		
00:41:37 --> 00:41:38
			this is about the whole world
		
00:41:39 --> 00:41:40
			war and this is,
		
00:41:41 --> 00:41:43
			has been made very clear in the Quran
		
00:41:43 --> 00:41:44
			that,
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:46
			the alfasad
		
00:41:46 --> 00:41:48
			is not limited to certain
		
00:41:50 --> 00:41:52
			geography of the world. Al Fazad is very
		
00:41:52 --> 00:41:53
			much
		
00:41:53 --> 00:41:54
			borderless,
		
00:41:54 --> 00:41:56
			limitless and this is
		
00:41:56 --> 00:41:57
			the war
		
00:41:58 --> 00:41:59
			of al Fazad,
		
00:41:59 --> 00:42:00
			the war of,
		
00:42:01 --> 00:42:02
			corruption and and
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:05
			so and so forth. So we have to
		
00:42:05 --> 00:42:07
			look around and perhaps to free our mindset
		
00:42:07 --> 00:42:08
			from the geographical
		
00:42:09 --> 00:42:12
			interpretation of the Quran and try to bring,
		
00:42:14 --> 00:42:16
			a meaningful interpretation,
		
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19
			an abstract interpretation to give the real meaning
		
00:42:19 --> 00:42:21
			because the Quran was not meant to serve
		
00:42:22 --> 00:42:24
			the people, the nation, the geography,
		
00:42:24 --> 00:42:25
			but to serve
		
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28
			the bigger and higher
		
00:42:28 --> 00:42:30
			objective and meanings at the end of the
		
00:42:30 --> 00:42:32
			day. I think I would like to stop
		
00:42:32 --> 00:42:33
			at that point of view.
		
00:42:33 --> 00:42:34
			I'm not
		
00:42:35 --> 00:42:37
			with the classical, I'm not with the contemporary
		
00:42:38 --> 00:42:40
			point of view but perhaps we have to
		
00:42:40 --> 00:42:41
			make these verses
		
00:42:42 --> 00:42:42
			meaningful,
		
00:42:43 --> 00:42:46
			purposeful, impactful in term of preparing for the
		
00:42:46 --> 00:42:48
			future. And this is the whole meaning of
		
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51
			the Quran as Hudan Dinas and Hidayah. Thank
		
00:42:51 --> 00:42:52
			you very much, sir Themis.
		
00:42:53 --> 00:42:55
			But although you said you're not with the
		
00:42:55 --> 00:42:57
			classical or the contemporary, it seemed like to
		
00:42:57 --> 00:42:59
			me you are actually advancing the contemporary,
		
00:42:59 --> 00:43:00
			extrapolating
		
00:43:00 --> 00:43:02
			meanings into this, and this leads me to
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:04
			my next question to Doctor. Suhaib.
		
00:43:04 --> 00:43:05
			Here,
		
00:43:05 --> 00:43:07
			coming back to our question of studying the
		
00:43:07 --> 00:43:09
			Quran yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:12
			Here we have an issue about a Quranic
		
00:43:12 --> 00:43:15
			passage where we are stating there is no
		
00:43:15 --> 00:43:15
			categorical
		
00:43:15 --> 00:43:16
			interpretation
		
00:43:17 --> 00:43:20
			as to what the 2 corruptions entail, what
		
00:43:20 --> 00:43:23
			the loss of power, dominance entails. Is it
		
00:43:24 --> 00:43:27
			believers? Is it disbelievers? There seems not to
		
00:43:27 --> 00:43:28
			be a categorical
		
00:43:28 --> 00:43:32
			definitive interpretation here, which gives scope for contemporary
		
00:43:32 --> 00:43:34
			scholars to build on these meanings and interpret
		
00:43:34 --> 00:43:36
			them in the way that we are seeing
		
00:43:36 --> 00:43:38
			it happen today. My question is this, that
		
00:43:38 --> 00:43:39
			to what extent
		
00:43:40 --> 00:43:41
			will the classical tradition
		
00:43:42 --> 00:43:44
			and the classical understanding of text accommodate
		
00:43:45 --> 00:43:46
			interpretations
		
00:43:46 --> 00:43:48
			such as what we just heard now from,
		
00:43:48 --> 00:43:50
			let's say, Doctor. Daud Bakar?
		
00:43:51 --> 00:43:54
			Yes. I I think that, what Tan Sri
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:56
			has kindly highlighted for us is the importance
		
00:43:56 --> 00:43:57
			of
		
00:43:57 --> 00:44:00
			looking anew at the Quran all the time
		
00:44:00 --> 00:44:01
			in terms of the world that we are
		
00:44:01 --> 00:44:03
			living in, the relevance of the lesson that
		
00:44:03 --> 00:44:05
			we are taking from it. Yep. And, importantly,
		
00:44:05 --> 00:44:08
			that's always what the scholars have done.
		
00:44:09 --> 00:44:11
			But when it comes to the example that
		
00:44:11 --> 00:44:12
			we are dealing with,
		
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15
			generally, once they had established that this was
		
00:44:15 --> 00:44:17
			referring to historical event, they just considered that
		
00:44:17 --> 00:44:19
			to be a closed case. There was no
		
00:44:19 --> 00:44:20
			reason to re examine that case.
		
00:44:21 --> 00:44:22
			Then comes the 20th century,
		
00:44:23 --> 00:44:24
			the events of 1948,
		
00:44:25 --> 00:44:26
			the other events of 1967.
		
00:44:27 --> 00:44:28
			And all of a sudden,
		
00:44:29 --> 00:44:30
			scholars were now questioning
		
00:44:31 --> 00:44:34
			their assumption of the trajectory that the Quran
		
00:44:34 --> 00:44:36
			is talking about for the Jews,
		
00:44:36 --> 00:44:38
			that they will remain in such a state
		
00:44:39 --> 00:44:40
			until the end of time, and then all
		
00:44:40 --> 00:44:42
			of a sudden they have a state, right,
		
00:44:42 --> 00:44:44
			of a different kind. Now, things are happening
		
00:44:44 --> 00:44:47
			which are which now challenge some ways that
		
00:44:47 --> 00:44:49
			we had been reading the Quran, so they
		
00:44:49 --> 00:44:50
			had to look afresh.
		
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52
			And so, the scholars who have advanced that
		
00:44:52 --> 00:44:54
			view, even if I don't agree with their
		
00:44:54 --> 00:44:55
			conclusion,
		
00:44:55 --> 00:44:56
			I highly value
		
00:44:57 --> 00:44:58
			what they brought to the table. And the
		
00:44:58 --> 00:45:01
			fact that by presenting some evidences and saying,
		
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04
			let's think about this again. People like Sheikh
		
00:45:04 --> 00:45:05
			Mohammed Mutwali Shahrawi,
		
00:45:05 --> 00:45:07
			1 of the great great scholars of tafsir
		
00:45:07 --> 00:45:08
			in the 20th century,
		
00:45:09 --> 00:45:10
			1 of the luminaries of Al Azhar.
		
00:45:11 --> 00:45:13
			Various other scholars who are known in these
		
00:45:13 --> 00:45:15
			regions as well like Salah al Khaledi and
		
00:45:15 --> 00:45:16
			Fadullah Hasan Abbas,
		
00:45:17 --> 00:45:19
			Various others who have written on this. And
		
00:45:19 --> 00:45:21
			then there are scholars who wrote in the
		
00:45:21 --> 00:45:24
			other direction, like Allama Yusuf Al Qaradawi
		
00:45:24 --> 00:45:27
			defended the standard view, the classical view against
		
00:45:27 --> 00:45:30
			this modern idea. But it's important that we
		
00:45:30 --> 00:45:32
			are able to have that discussion
		
00:45:33 --> 00:45:34
			because when it comes
		
00:45:35 --> 00:45:36
			to established opinions in tafsir,
		
00:45:37 --> 00:45:38
			they are not always of the kind of
		
00:45:38 --> 00:45:41
			weight of something that we call ijma', like
		
00:45:41 --> 00:45:42
			we call consensus.
		
00:45:42 --> 00:45:45
			In matters of fiqh, in matters of law
		
00:45:45 --> 00:45:46
			and practical questions
		
00:45:47 --> 00:45:49
			of how we perform our deen and we
		
00:45:49 --> 00:45:51
			fulfill our ibadah.
		
00:45:51 --> 00:45:53
			We sometimes have a matter where all the
		
00:45:53 --> 00:45:56
			scholars agreed on something, and therefore we know
		
00:45:56 --> 00:45:58
			that the truth must be here because otherwise
		
00:45:58 --> 00:46:01
			the ummah would have gathered upon something false
		
00:46:01 --> 00:46:02
			and this just cannot happen.
		
00:46:03 --> 00:46:05
			But in questions of tafsir, it's a lot
		
00:46:05 --> 00:46:05
			more
		
00:46:06 --> 00:46:07
			flexible than that, a lot more open than
		
00:46:07 --> 00:46:09
			that. Sometimes
		
00:46:09 --> 00:46:11
			the scholars are all agreeing on something just
		
00:46:11 --> 00:46:13
			because they are repeating each other. They're just
		
00:46:13 --> 00:46:15
			passing on. That's the way tafsir often works.
		
00:46:16 --> 00:46:18
			The later mafasir is just reading what the
		
00:46:18 --> 00:46:21
			early mafasir said and passing it on
		
00:46:21 --> 00:46:24
			with the openness that perhaps if there's reason
		
00:46:24 --> 00:46:25
			to re examine,
		
00:46:25 --> 00:46:27
			we would re examine it.
		
00:46:27 --> 00:46:29
			I would like to say, very briefly that
		
00:46:29 --> 00:46:31
			we do need to look for the lessons
		
00:46:31 --> 00:46:32
			in this passage,
		
00:46:32 --> 00:46:34
			whether we are thinking in terms of
		
00:46:35 --> 00:46:38
			the traditional view that it is 2 past
		
00:46:38 --> 00:46:39
			events or if it is something
		
00:46:40 --> 00:46:42
			like Sheikh Jarawi and others suggested that it's
		
00:46:42 --> 00:46:43
			a modern event.
		
00:46:44 --> 00:46:46
			Because, for example, if we assume that these
		
00:46:46 --> 00:46:46
			these
		
00:46:47 --> 00:46:50
			that I referred to here are actually not
		
00:46:51 --> 00:46:52
			the believing ummah.
		
00:46:52 --> 00:46:53
			They are not,
		
00:46:54 --> 00:46:57
			believers or righteous servants of Allah.
		
00:46:57 --> 00:46:59
			Then isn't there a lesson for us then
		
00:46:59 --> 00:47:00
			as
		
00:47:00 --> 00:47:03
			the inheritors of Bani Israel those who have
		
00:47:03 --> 00:47:03
			now received
		
00:47:04 --> 00:47:06
			the covenant and the chosenness
		
00:47:06 --> 00:47:07
			and the responsibility
		
00:47:08 --> 00:47:09
			to represent
		
00:47:09 --> 00:47:11
			the deen of Allah upon earth as the
		
00:47:11 --> 00:47:15
			Muslim ummah, having received this responsibility and burden.
		
00:47:15 --> 00:47:17
			Is there not a lesson here that maybe
		
00:47:17 --> 00:47:20
			even Allah would send some other people against
		
00:47:20 --> 00:47:22
			us if we fail in our duty.
		
00:47:22 --> 00:47:23
			What are we going to say that really
		
00:47:23 --> 00:47:26
			happened in the 20th century? What really happened
		
00:47:26 --> 00:47:27
			when
		
00:47:27 --> 00:47:28
			colonialism
		
00:47:28 --> 00:47:30
			has ravaged our lands? Are we going to
		
00:47:30 --> 00:47:31
			always point the finger
		
00:47:31 --> 00:47:34
			at those worldly forces? Or are we going
		
00:47:34 --> 00:47:36
			to look within and understand that maybe our
		
00:47:36 --> 00:47:38
			corruption has led to Allah
		
00:47:38 --> 00:47:40
			appointing some Ibad of his,
		
00:47:41 --> 00:47:43
			not from the Muslim Ummah, but from others
		
00:47:43 --> 00:47:45
			who would show us and put us in
		
00:47:45 --> 00:47:47
			our place, and make us look
		
00:47:48 --> 00:47:48
			again
		
00:47:50 --> 00:47:52
			at Perhaps your lord will have mercy on
		
00:47:52 --> 00:47:54
			you. But if you continue and you return
		
00:47:54 --> 00:47:56
			to that wrong action, then we will return
		
00:47:57 --> 00:47:59
			to disgrace you as we had done to
		
00:47:59 --> 00:48:01
			Bani Israel before. Perhaps this is a lesson
		
00:48:01 --> 00:48:03
			for us. Allah knows best.
		
00:48:06 --> 00:48:08
			Doctor. Saqib, I just wanted to ask here.
		
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12
			I it's my understanding that you,
		
00:48:13 --> 00:48:14
			that you adopt the classical position.
		
00:48:15 --> 00:48:16
			However,
		
00:48:16 --> 00:48:18
			you arrive at that conclusion
		
00:48:18 --> 00:48:21
			differently to what the classical scholars
		
00:48:21 --> 00:48:23
			have adopted to arrive to that conclusion. Is
		
00:48:23 --> 00:48:24
			that first of all, is that correct?
		
00:48:25 --> 00:48:26
			Or
		
00:48:26 --> 00:48:27
			I stand
		
00:48:28 --> 00:48:29
			yeah. I guess.
		
00:48:30 --> 00:48:32
			So I I do think this is
		
00:48:32 --> 00:48:34
			talking about past events, that that's
		
00:48:35 --> 00:48:37
			the most convincing reading of the
		
00:48:37 --> 00:48:38
			passage to me.
		
00:48:41 --> 00:48:42
			I hold that position,
		
00:48:43 --> 00:48:43
			I guess,
		
00:48:44 --> 00:48:45
			on the basis of the
		
00:48:46 --> 00:48:49
			what's in the IART itself, it seems to
		
00:48:49 --> 00:48:51
			suggest that it's a past event,
		
00:48:52 --> 00:48:55
			and on the basis, as I say, of
		
00:48:57 --> 00:48:58
			how this
		
00:48:58 --> 00:49:00
			passage seems to address
		
00:49:00 --> 00:49:01
			well known
		
00:49:02 --> 00:49:05
			events in Israelite history. What would have come
		
00:49:05 --> 00:49:06
			to mind
		
00:49:07 --> 00:49:07
			for contemporary
		
00:49:08 --> 00:49:08
			Jewish
		
00:49:09 --> 00:49:10
			and Christian audiences
		
00:49:10 --> 00:49:12
			as soon as they heard about
		
00:49:12 --> 00:49:15
			the temple of Sulaiman, the Masjid of Sulaiman,
		
00:49:15 --> 00:49:17
			Al Masjid Al Aqsa. And just to pick
		
00:49:17 --> 00:49:18
			up on something
		
00:49:19 --> 00:49:22
			Sheikh Suhay was saying, that just because it's
		
00:49:22 --> 00:49:24
			a past event doesn't mean it doesn't have
		
00:49:24 --> 00:49:25
			contemporary relevance.
		
00:49:26 --> 00:49:26
			And
		
00:49:26 --> 00:49:28
			the passage begins with linuriyahuminayadina.
		
00:49:30 --> 00:49:32
			The whole thing is happening, the Prophet
		
00:49:33 --> 00:49:34
			is being shown this vision,
		
00:49:35 --> 00:49:36
			is being taken on this journey, is being
		
00:49:36 --> 00:49:37
			told this
		
00:49:38 --> 00:49:38
			history,
		
00:49:40 --> 00:49:42
			so that he can see these ayaats because
		
00:49:42 --> 00:49:44
			these ayaats are going to have relevance
		
00:49:44 --> 00:49:45
			in the life of the
		
00:49:46 --> 00:49:46
			Prophet
		
00:49:47 --> 00:49:49
			and there's going to be lessons that the
		
00:49:49 --> 00:49:49
			Prophet
		
00:49:50 --> 00:49:52
			draws in terms of when he's setting up
		
00:49:52 --> 00:49:52
			this new community
		
00:49:53 --> 00:49:55
			just as an old community once existed, a
		
00:49:55 --> 00:49:58
			previous community once existed, and they had a
		
00:49:58 --> 00:49:58
			history
		
00:49:59 --> 00:50:00
			and they had to go through certain events
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:03
			as a result of their actions, The prophet
		
00:50:03 --> 00:50:04
			is being told that
		
00:50:04 --> 00:50:07
			that you are now about to inaugurate a
		
00:50:07 --> 00:50:08
			new community, a new
		
00:50:09 --> 00:50:09
			Umrah,
		
00:50:10 --> 00:50:12
			and remember what happened to the previous 1
		
00:50:12 --> 00:50:15
			when they performed certain actions. So, there's absolutely
		
00:50:15 --> 00:50:17
			relevance for those past events at the time
		
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20
			of the Prophet and in our time now,
		
00:50:20 --> 00:50:21
			and I think that we
		
00:50:22 --> 00:50:24
			can draw out those lessons without
		
00:50:26 --> 00:50:28
			thinking of these 2 destructions as referring to
		
00:50:28 --> 00:50:31
			any sort of future events. On that note,
		
00:50:31 --> 00:50:32
			if I may. Go ahead.
		
00:50:33 --> 00:50:33
			The
		
00:50:34 --> 00:50:34
			the Quran
		
00:50:35 --> 00:50:38
			never really talks about history without it being
		
00:50:38 --> 00:50:39
			relevant to the believer.
		
00:50:40 --> 00:50:42
			So the Quran's never discussing history for the
		
00:50:42 --> 00:50:43
			sake
		
00:50:43 --> 00:50:46
			of history itself. It's the lessons from history
		
00:50:46 --> 00:50:47
			that are at the core.
		
00:50:47 --> 00:50:50
			And another piece to this discussion is that
		
00:50:51 --> 00:50:53
			the history of Bani Israel is of particular
		
00:50:54 --> 00:50:55
			importance in the Quran
		
00:50:56 --> 00:50:56
			because
		
00:50:57 --> 00:50:58
			Allah has
		
00:50:58 --> 00:50:59
			taken them
		
00:50:59 --> 00:51:01
			by the coming of the Quran, he has
		
00:51:01 --> 00:51:03
			taken them from the role of being the
		
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05
			role models to humanity
		
00:51:05 --> 00:51:07
			and now has chosen this ummah for that
		
00:51:07 --> 00:51:08
			role.
		
00:51:08 --> 00:51:10
			And in this journey of the Prophet
		
00:51:11 --> 00:51:14
			in Israel and Mi'raj, it's kind of interesting
		
00:51:14 --> 00:51:16
			that before he goes up into the heavens,
		
00:51:16 --> 00:51:17
			he's taken to
		
00:51:18 --> 00:51:18
			Jerusalem
		
00:51:19 --> 00:51:21
			and as Doctor. Saqib is suggesting, he's being
		
00:51:21 --> 00:51:23
			shown, look, the people before you,
		
00:51:23 --> 00:51:25
			this place is really important because it was
		
00:51:25 --> 00:51:26
			destroyed twice
		
00:51:27 --> 00:51:29
			because of the corruption of the ummah.
		
00:51:29 --> 00:51:31
			And why would the Prophet
		
00:51:31 --> 00:51:33
			be taught that And why would we remember
		
00:51:33 --> 00:51:35
			that? And why would that be a significant
		
00:51:35 --> 00:51:37
			thing for the ummah that if the ummah
		
00:51:38 --> 00:51:39
			starts to behave
		
00:51:39 --> 00:51:41
			in ways like when Israel behaved,
		
00:51:42 --> 00:51:43
			then other nations
		
00:51:44 --> 00:51:45
			can come time and again
		
00:51:46 --> 00:51:48
			and cause destruction to this Ummah,
		
00:51:49 --> 00:51:51
			and that history will repeat itself and even
		
00:51:51 --> 00:51:53
			the words like that that are being echoed,
		
00:51:56 --> 00:51:58
			like even the sahaba said this is about
		
00:51:58 --> 00:51:59
			us,
		
00:51:59 --> 00:52:02
			like it may be that Allah will show
		
00:52:02 --> 00:52:03
			you rahma, but if you go back to
		
00:52:03 --> 00:52:06
			your old corrupt ways, then we will go
		
00:52:06 --> 00:52:07
			back to to the consequences
		
00:52:08 --> 00:52:10
			that we give for your corrupt ways.
		
00:52:10 --> 00:52:12
			Right? And then the Ibadan Nala that was
		
00:52:12 --> 00:52:13
			suggested,
		
00:52:13 --> 00:52:14
			well, they
		
00:52:14 --> 00:52:17
			had non believers that did Allah's plan and
		
00:52:17 --> 00:52:20
			caused great destruction and destroyed Allah's house even.
		
00:52:20 --> 00:52:22
			Right? Caused a great destruction to the the
		
00:52:22 --> 00:52:23
			ummah
		
00:52:23 --> 00:52:25
			of that time. They are the ummah of
		
00:52:25 --> 00:52:26
			Islam of that time.
		
00:52:26 --> 00:52:28
			And so if you do this, then Allah
		
00:52:28 --> 00:52:30
			will may well bring
		
00:52:31 --> 00:52:33
			colonizers and other superpowers and other nations that
		
00:52:33 --> 00:52:36
			are going to bring this destruction on you.
		
00:52:37 --> 00:52:39
			And the only way back will actually have
		
00:52:39 --> 00:52:41
			to be what Allah told them.
		
00:52:42 --> 00:52:44
			They have to hold on to the book
		
00:52:44 --> 00:52:45
			of Allah. They had to hold on to
		
00:52:45 --> 00:52:47
			the book of Allah and it's interesting at
		
00:52:47 --> 00:52:48
			the very end of this passage,
		
00:52:48 --> 00:52:51
			the 10th ayah or is it the 11th,
		
00:52:59 --> 00:53:01
			That the Quran this Quran now guides to
		
00:53:01 --> 00:53:02
			that which is more upright
		
00:53:03 --> 00:53:05
			and gives good news to believers. In other
		
00:53:05 --> 00:53:07
			words, if you follow this, there's only good
		
00:53:07 --> 00:53:07
			news.
		
00:53:08 --> 00:53:10
			And if you don't follow this, then there's
		
00:53:10 --> 00:53:12
			my implication, there's bad news,
		
00:53:12 --> 00:53:13
			you know. Yeah.
		
00:53:13 --> 00:53:14
			I think,
		
00:53:14 --> 00:53:15
			if I may,
		
00:53:15 --> 00:53:18
			I think 1 of the important verses
		
00:53:18 --> 00:53:19
			in the 10 verses,
		
00:53:20 --> 00:53:21
			which has been recited
		
00:53:22 --> 00:53:24
			is verse number 6.
		
00:53:33 --> 00:53:34
			This is a fact
		
00:53:35 --> 00:53:35
			from Allah
		
00:53:37 --> 00:53:38
			This is a divine fact
		
00:53:38 --> 00:53:40
			which is non negotiable,
		
00:53:40 --> 00:53:41
			where Allah
		
00:53:42 --> 00:53:43
			has promised
		
00:53:44 --> 00:53:46
			to give them, to award them. Them refers
		
00:53:46 --> 00:53:47
			to
		
00:53:47 --> 00:53:48
			the Jews.
		
00:53:49 --> 00:53:50
			That Allah will give them
		
00:53:52 --> 00:53:55
			not only sufficient, more than sufficient in terms
		
00:53:55 --> 00:53:56
			of wealth.
		
00:53:56 --> 00:53:58
			Wealth cannot be defined as money.
		
00:53:59 --> 00:54:01
			Wealth should be defined as more than the
		
00:54:01 --> 00:54:01
			money.
		
00:54:01 --> 00:54:02
			It could be,
		
00:54:03 --> 00:54:03
			stock.
		
00:54:04 --> 00:54:06
			Now the stock is much more powerful than
		
00:54:06 --> 00:54:09
			money. The most richest person in the world
		
00:54:09 --> 00:54:11
			is not the money he has, but how
		
00:54:11 --> 00:54:13
			many stock he has in public state companies,
		
00:54:14 --> 00:54:15
			gold and
		
00:54:16 --> 00:54:16
			properties
		
00:54:17 --> 00:54:19
			and asset here and this. And wabanin,
		
00:54:20 --> 00:54:21
			the offspring, the children.
		
00:54:22 --> 00:54:23
			And also
		
00:54:23 --> 00:54:25
			Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala
		
00:54:25 --> 00:54:26
			will make
		
00:54:26 --> 00:54:28
			them more than us. And that's why I
		
00:54:28 --> 00:54:31
			was saying that it's not about the geography
		
00:54:31 --> 00:54:33
			of Palestine or Israel vis a vis
		
00:54:34 --> 00:54:34
			Palestine.
		
00:54:34 --> 00:54:37
			We have to look this ayah is about
		
00:54:37 --> 00:54:38
			the whole
		
00:54:39 --> 00:54:39
			formulation
		
00:54:41 --> 00:54:42
			of Judaism,
		
00:54:43 --> 00:54:43
			hegemony
		
00:54:44 --> 00:54:46
			of the world from the financial sector,
		
00:54:46 --> 00:54:47
			from the publishers
		
00:54:48 --> 00:54:49
			sector because
		
00:54:49 --> 00:54:52
			perhaps that give the signal,
		
00:54:52 --> 00:54:54
			I don't know, I mean the scholars can
		
00:54:54 --> 00:54:56
			correct me on this, that the Israelite state
		
00:54:56 --> 00:54:59
			will be larger and larger to accommodate
		
00:54:59 --> 00:55:01
			more nafero, more population
		
00:55:02 --> 00:55:05
			of the Jewish, either they're staying in that
		
00:55:05 --> 00:55:07
			part of the world or beyond. So this
		
00:55:07 --> 00:55:07
			is something,
		
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11
			a fact that everyone must agree. This is
		
00:55:11 --> 00:55:13
			a promise to from Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala
		
00:55:13 --> 00:55:15
			and Allah promise is always
		
00:55:16 --> 00:55:18
			right and accurate. So this is something we
		
00:55:18 --> 00:55:19
			have to
		
00:55:20 --> 00:55:20
			not only
		
00:55:20 --> 00:55:22
			take note but fight against
		
00:55:23 --> 00:55:25
			the wealth of, you know, struggle and the
		
00:55:25 --> 00:55:26
			population struggle
		
00:55:27 --> 00:55:29
			and the geographical struggle as well. So this
		
00:55:29 --> 00:55:31
			is something I think we need to take
		
00:55:31 --> 00:55:32
			that lesson
		
00:55:32 --> 00:55:36
			because it's about population, it's about wealth, it's
		
00:55:36 --> 00:55:36
			about
		
00:55:37 --> 00:55:40
			territory expansion moving forward. Then this is the
		
00:55:40 --> 00:55:42
			fact mentioned by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.
		
00:55:42 --> 00:55:45
			Look, indirectly it's up to the mind,
		
00:55:46 --> 00:55:46
			the intelligence
		
00:55:47 --> 00:55:49
			Muslim to really take note. And I have
		
00:55:50 --> 00:55:52
			to put seriously that this is the challenge
		
00:55:53 --> 00:55:54
			of our ummah.
		
00:55:54 --> 00:55:55
			The financial challenges,
		
00:55:56 --> 00:55:58
			the population challenge and the quality of the
		
00:55:58 --> 00:56:01
			population that we have, education and health and
		
00:56:01 --> 00:56:01
			also
		
00:56:02 --> 00:56:02
			the territorial.
		
00:56:03 --> 00:56:04
			We are losing many
		
00:56:04 --> 00:56:07
			Muslim territorial as we speak.
		
00:56:07 --> 00:56:10
			Sudan and this and that and this. So
		
00:56:10 --> 00:56:12
			we need to take note and try
		
00:56:12 --> 00:56:13
			to bring back,
		
00:56:14 --> 00:56:15
			all the important issues to the Ming state.
		
00:56:15 --> 00:56:17
			I was wondering if I may ask a
		
00:56:17 --> 00:56:17
			question to
		
00:56:18 --> 00:56:19
			Doctor.
		
00:56:19 --> 00:56:21
			I have we have around just under 10
		
00:56:21 --> 00:56:24
			minutes and I have 2 last questions to
		
00:56:24 --> 00:56:26
			wrap up the session. So You go ahead.
		
00:56:26 --> 00:56:27
			Actually You can you can ask the question
		
00:56:27 --> 00:56:30
			or respond to it as part as the,
		
00:56:31 --> 00:56:32
			concluding remarks.
		
00:56:32 --> 00:56:33
			No, no.
		
00:56:33 --> 00:56:34
			I'll take your questions first. You take the
		
00:56:34 --> 00:56:36
			questions? Okay. So what I'd like to do
		
00:56:36 --> 00:56:37
			now, we have 10 minutes left and I
		
00:56:37 --> 00:56:39
			just want to sort of bring it, wrap
		
00:56:39 --> 00:56:40
			this,
		
00:56:41 --> 00:56:42
			bring this discussion
		
00:56:43 --> 00:56:44
			to some sort of set conclusions
		
00:56:46 --> 00:56:46
			on ideas
		
00:56:47 --> 00:56:48
			and on
		
00:56:49 --> 00:56:51
			reflection. So what we've seen here is
		
00:56:52 --> 00:56:53
			a contemporary interpretation
		
00:56:54 --> 00:56:54
			of
		
00:56:55 --> 00:56:56
			verses from Surat al Isra
		
00:56:57 --> 00:56:58
			who are engaging in
		
00:56:59 --> 00:57:01
			a discussion with our classical tradition.
		
00:57:01 --> 00:57:03
			Here, what we've noticed is that
		
00:57:03 --> 00:57:05
			although there are I see many of you
		
00:57:05 --> 00:57:07
			are giving room for that interpretation,
		
00:57:08 --> 00:57:09
			at least in terms of relevancy,
		
00:57:10 --> 00:57:10
			The
		
00:57:11 --> 00:57:12
			belief seems to be that, look, these are
		
00:57:12 --> 00:57:15
			essentially 2 historical events, but there are lessons
		
00:57:15 --> 00:57:17
			to learn from this even if we
		
00:57:17 --> 00:57:19
			reinterpret them. I'd like to get a bit
		
00:57:19 --> 00:57:22
			more contentious right now with 2 questions. Firstly
		
00:57:22 --> 00:57:24
			is that, and this is open to all
		
00:57:24 --> 00:57:26
			the panelists, so feel free to answer or
		
00:57:26 --> 00:57:27
			avoid answering,
		
00:57:27 --> 00:57:29
			is that is there any classical
		
00:57:29 --> 00:57:30
			interpretation
		
00:57:30 --> 00:57:33
			of any verse, any Sura, any passage, any
		
00:57:33 --> 00:57:34
			story
		
00:57:34 --> 00:57:37
			that you strongly disagree with and you feel
		
00:57:38 --> 00:57:39
			that in these circumstances
		
00:57:40 --> 00:57:41
			there has to be a reinterpretation,
		
00:57:42 --> 00:57:44
			that it's not just, you know, it's not
		
00:57:44 --> 00:57:46
			just good to just point to relevancy of
		
00:57:46 --> 00:57:47
			a classical
		
00:57:47 --> 00:57:51
			interpretation, but a classical interpretation perhaps is not
		
00:57:51 --> 00:57:54
			aligning with the intent of God's you know,
		
00:57:54 --> 00:57:56
			speech here? Can you give us any case
		
00:57:56 --> 00:57:58
			studies, any verses? So
		
00:57:58 --> 00:58:00
			I want a bit of controversy, basically. Okay.
		
00:58:00 --> 00:58:02
			I'll I'll start off. I can start.
		
00:58:03 --> 00:58:04
			Go ahead. I'll start off.
		
00:58:05 --> 00:58:06
			Yeah. Let's just jump right in. But do
		
00:58:06 --> 00:58:08
			remember, look, we have around Yeah. 8 minutes.
		
00:58:08 --> 00:58:10
			So a couple of minutes each and then
		
00:58:10 --> 00:58:11
			I'll continue with the final question. 1 of
		
00:58:11 --> 00:58:12
			the classical
		
00:58:12 --> 00:58:12
			opinions,
		
00:58:13 --> 00:58:16
			commentaries on the story of Dawud alaihis salam,
		
00:58:16 --> 00:58:17
			many of you might be familiar
		
00:58:17 --> 00:58:20
			that people came into his quarters and
		
00:58:21 --> 00:58:23
			they terrified him and then they said, this
		
00:58:23 --> 00:58:25
			is my brother. He has 99 sheep, and
		
00:58:25 --> 00:58:27
			I only have 1 sheep, and he's
		
00:58:27 --> 00:58:30
			intimidating me. And the interpretation was actually borrowed
		
00:58:30 --> 00:58:33
			from a story in biblical tradition that Saqib
		
00:58:33 --> 00:58:34
			can pinpoint
		
00:58:34 --> 00:58:37
			with laser precision. I can't, but Muslim interpreters
		
00:58:38 --> 00:58:40
			are classical tafasir, started mentioning it and accepting
		
00:58:40 --> 00:58:41
			it as a normal interpretation
		
00:58:42 --> 00:58:43
			that Dawud
		
00:58:43 --> 00:58:46
			had 99 wives and he saw this other
		
00:58:46 --> 00:58:48
			woman and he became interested in her and
		
00:58:49 --> 00:58:51
			turns out that she was married
		
00:58:51 --> 00:58:53
			and then he still has a relationship with
		
00:58:53 --> 00:58:55
			her. So there's an accusation of Zina against
		
00:58:55 --> 00:58:57
			him. And then on top of that,
		
00:58:57 --> 00:58:59
			he's now he wants to be with her.
		
00:58:59 --> 00:59:01
			So he sends her husband, because he was
		
00:59:01 --> 00:59:03
			the ruler, he sends her husband into some
		
00:59:03 --> 00:59:03
			battle
		
00:59:04 --> 00:59:05
			kind of setting up that he can get
		
00:59:05 --> 00:59:06
			killed,
		
00:59:06 --> 00:59:08
			so he's done and he can have his
		
00:59:08 --> 00:59:09
			100 sheep.
		
00:59:09 --> 00:59:11
			Right? So that's the interpretation,
		
00:59:11 --> 00:59:14
			and I absolutely reject that interpretation with no,
		
00:59:15 --> 00:59:17
			with all due respect to the tradition, I
		
00:59:17 --> 00:59:18
			have no respect for that view in the
		
00:59:18 --> 00:59:21
			tradition at all. III think it's disrespectful to
		
00:59:21 --> 00:59:23
			prophets. I think it's actually again going against
		
00:59:23 --> 00:59:25
			the text of the Quran. I think there's
		
00:59:25 --> 00:59:26
			plenty of literary
		
00:59:26 --> 00:59:29
			and very clear linguistic markers in the Ayah
		
00:59:29 --> 00:59:31
			that is saying that this is not referring
		
00:59:31 --> 00:59:33
			to that case at all.
		
00:59:33 --> 00:59:34
			And in fact,
		
00:59:35 --> 00:59:37
			the the Ayah, you know, some people have
		
00:59:37 --> 00:59:38
			looked at, you know,
		
00:59:39 --> 00:59:39
			you know,
		
00:59:40 --> 00:59:43
			at the end, you know, that he fell
		
00:59:43 --> 00:59:45
			on the floor in Sajdah and he,
		
00:59:45 --> 00:59:47
			you know, made his tighfar and he to
		
00:59:47 --> 00:59:49
			repented to Allah, or he must have repented
		
00:59:49 --> 00:59:50
			for this.
		
00:59:51 --> 00:59:51
			This is
		
00:59:52 --> 00:59:54
			this is the kind of thing that people
		
00:59:54 --> 00:59:55
			before us did
		
00:59:56 --> 00:59:58
			to undermine the integrity of prophets.
		
01:00:00 --> 01:00:03
			And a quick similar thing happens with Soleiman
		
01:00:06 --> 01:00:09
			that he the interpretation is he was taking
		
01:00:09 --> 01:00:11
			care of the horses and he was taking
		
01:00:11 --> 01:00:13
			care of them so much that he missed
		
01:00:13 --> 01:00:13
			Maghrib
		
01:00:13 --> 01:00:16
			because the sun set. And because he got
		
01:00:16 --> 01:00:19
			so upset that it's the horse's fault, he
		
01:00:19 --> 01:00:21
			cut off their legs and their necks, which
		
01:00:21 --> 01:00:24
			means he mutilated the animal. He tortured the
		
01:00:24 --> 01:00:26
			animal by cutting the legs first and then
		
01:00:26 --> 01:00:27
			he cut their necks.
		
01:00:28 --> 01:00:28
			I
		
01:00:29 --> 01:00:31
			absolutely would strongly disagree
		
01:00:31 --> 01:00:34
			with that interpretation of the ayah because first
		
01:00:34 --> 01:00:36
			of all, if if I miss Maghrib and
		
01:00:36 --> 01:00:38
			I was taking care of my child
		
01:00:38 --> 01:00:40
			and I miss Maghrib, then I wouldn't get
		
01:00:40 --> 01:00:42
			angry at my child. So I don't understand
		
01:00:42 --> 01:00:44
			why a man, a prophet of Allah with
		
01:00:44 --> 01:00:45
			such wisdom
		
01:00:45 --> 01:00:47
			could possibly get angry at the horses.
		
01:00:48 --> 01:00:50
			And and on top of not just we
		
01:00:50 --> 01:00:52
			we slaughter animals with mercy and he would
		
01:00:52 --> 01:00:54
			what? Cut their legs off first and then
		
01:00:54 --> 01:00:55
			cut their that doesn't make any sense.
		
01:00:55 --> 01:00:58
			So there there is an alternative
		
01:00:58 --> 01:01:00
			explanation that makes far more sense. Imam Razi,
		
01:01:00 --> 01:01:02
			I believe, talks about this.
		
01:01:02 --> 01:01:05
			But that but the opposite view is very
		
01:01:05 --> 01:01:07
			popular and it's a classical opinion.
		
01:01:07 --> 01:01:09
			So for me, 1 of the takeaways today
		
01:01:09 --> 01:01:10
			is
		
01:01:10 --> 01:01:13
			sometimes the classical opinion has far more stronger
		
01:01:13 --> 01:01:14
			evidence than
		
01:01:15 --> 01:01:17
			some contemporary new interpretation. We're not talking about
		
01:01:17 --> 01:01:20
			drawing the universal lesson. We're talking about interpretation
		
01:01:20 --> 01:01:21
			itself.
		
01:01:21 --> 01:01:22
			But
		
01:01:22 --> 01:01:25
			other times there are classical views that just
		
01:01:25 --> 01:01:27
			if you look at them again with fresh
		
01:01:27 --> 01:01:29
			eyes, you say there's no way I can
		
01:01:29 --> 01:01:31
			accept that. That's not
		
01:01:31 --> 01:01:33
			that's that that doesn't fit with prophets. It
		
01:01:33 --> 01:01:35
			doesn't fit with what Allah says. It doesn't
		
01:01:35 --> 01:01:37
			fit with the spirit of the Quran. It
		
01:01:37 --> 01:01:38
			just doesn't work.
		
01:01:38 --> 01:01:40
			So yeah. That would be at least 2
		
01:01:40 --> 01:01:41
			easy cases.
		
01:01:42 --> 01:01:43
			Sorry I took it off. So
		
01:01:44 --> 01:01:46
			I'm gonna use this microphone to advertise an
		
01:01:46 --> 01:01:47
			academic paper of mine.
		
01:01:48 --> 01:01:48
			Called
		
01:01:49 --> 01:01:50
			Fights and Flights.
		
01:01:51 --> 01:01:52
			Fights and Flights. It's got 2 halves. The
		
01:01:52 --> 01:01:54
			first is about fights
		
01:01:54 --> 01:01:56
			and the second half, I'm gonna talk about
		
01:01:56 --> 01:01:57
			very briefly, is about flights.
		
01:01:58 --> 01:02:00
			It is about It sounds like an action
		
01:02:00 --> 01:02:02
			movie that happens in a plane. You have
		
01:02:02 --> 01:02:04
			to get people to open the paper. So
		
01:02:04 --> 01:02:06
			it's make it easy to Google. So hebsaid
		
01:02:06 --> 01:02:08
			fights and flights. You can read it inshallah.
		
01:02:08 --> 01:02:10
			Right? But the second half is about Ibrahim
		
01:02:10 --> 01:02:13
			al Islam and the birds. Ayat 260 of
		
01:02:13 --> 01:02:13
			Sur Al Baqarah,
		
01:02:14 --> 01:02:15
			and
		
01:02:15 --> 01:02:17
			there is a view that came. It's not
		
01:02:17 --> 01:02:18
			a modern view,
		
01:02:18 --> 01:02:21
			but many, many modern people have accepted it.
		
01:02:21 --> 01:02:23
			But it's an old view that goes back
		
01:02:23 --> 01:02:24
			to someone called Abu Muslim
		
01:02:25 --> 01:02:25
			al Isfahani,
		
01:02:26 --> 01:02:27
			who is from the Mu'tazilah,
		
01:02:27 --> 01:02:29
			Abu Billah. So as soon as you recognize
		
01:02:29 --> 01:02:32
			it comes from someone from a strange group,
		
01:02:32 --> 01:02:34
			then this becomes a subject of suspicion.
		
01:02:35 --> 01:02:37
			And I've documented in this paper how the
		
01:02:37 --> 01:02:40
			Mafas Mafasridin have discussed that position,
		
01:02:42 --> 01:02:44
			Imam al Razi being 1 of them who
		
01:02:44 --> 01:02:45
			directs and,
		
01:02:45 --> 01:02:48
			you know, objects to this alternative position. The
		
01:02:48 --> 01:02:49
			alternative is basically,
		
01:02:50 --> 01:02:51
			the standard view is Ibrahim
		
01:02:53 --> 01:02:54
			was being told that he has to kill
		
01:02:54 --> 01:02:56
			and chop some birds, and then put them
		
01:02:56 --> 01:02:57
			on hills. And then he's gonna call them,
		
01:02:57 --> 01:03:00
			and a miraculous event will happen that they
		
01:03:00 --> 01:03:01
			will come back to life.
		
01:03:01 --> 01:03:03
			What is the alternative view that I happen
		
01:03:03 --> 01:03:05
			to think is the right view in this
		
01:03:05 --> 01:03:07
			ayah, is that it's not talking about an
		
01:03:07 --> 01:03:09
			actual killing of the birds. It is talking
		
01:03:09 --> 01:03:11
			about training the birds.
		
01:03:11 --> 01:03:13
			And this is an example that is being
		
01:03:13 --> 01:03:15
			struck, so that he can understand,
		
01:03:17 --> 01:03:17
			How
		
01:03:18 --> 01:03:20
			do you give life to the dead? So
		
01:03:20 --> 01:03:21
			once he understands
		
01:03:21 --> 01:03:23
			that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala has created us
		
01:03:23 --> 01:03:26
			all with this imprint to recognize Him, So
		
01:03:26 --> 01:03:27
			when He calls us back on the day
		
01:03:27 --> 01:03:29
			of judgement, we would all come flying back
		
01:03:29 --> 01:03:31
			to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That's it. And
		
01:03:31 --> 01:03:32
			very very brief.
		
01:03:32 --> 01:03:34
			But I argue in the paper that it's
		
01:03:34 --> 01:03:36
			sad sometimes how the Mufasirim
		
01:03:37 --> 01:03:39
			dismissed this opinion for reasons that were not
		
01:03:39 --> 01:03:41
			very good, but I think there's a lot
		
01:03:41 --> 01:03:43
			of good reason to accept Abu Muslim's alternative.
		
01:03:43 --> 01:03:45
			So, that's just to say I'm not always
		
01:03:45 --> 01:03:47
			on the old opinions, I'm sometimes
		
01:03:47 --> 01:03:48
			on the new.
		
01:03:49 --> 01:03:50
			Edel Sakib.
		
01:03:51 --> 01:03:52
			So,
		
01:03:53 --> 01:03:55
			sticking with the theme of biblical prophets,
		
01:03:56 --> 01:03:58
			we're discussing Adam al Islam, Adam in the
		
01:03:58 --> 01:03:59
			Quran
		
01:04:00 --> 01:04:00
			a
		
01:04:01 --> 01:04:03
			little while ago and in Surat Al Baqarah
		
01:04:03 --> 01:04:05
			you have this really interesting Ayah,
		
01:04:08 --> 01:04:09
			When the angels object
		
01:04:10 --> 01:04:12
			or when the angels question Allah Subhanahu Wa
		
01:04:12 --> 01:04:13
			Ta'ala, why are you going to create someone
		
01:04:13 --> 01:04:14
			who will
		
01:04:14 --> 01:04:15
			shed so much blood?
		
01:04:18 --> 01:04:21
			Allah swanwala's response is to teach Adam the
		
01:04:21 --> 01:04:21
			names
		
01:04:21 --> 01:04:23
			and this 1 of
		
01:04:23 --> 01:04:25
			the popular interpretations of this and early interpretation
		
01:04:25 --> 01:04:29
			is this is referring to the names of
		
01:04:29 --> 01:04:31
			the creatures of the land and the sky,
		
01:04:31 --> 01:04:32
			which raises the question and that's based on
		
01:04:32 --> 01:04:35
			the biblical story, which raises the question how
		
01:04:35 --> 01:04:38
			did this respond to Allah subhanahu wa'ala to
		
01:04:38 --> 01:04:39
			the angels objection.
		
01:04:40 --> 01:04:42
			Their objection is or their question is why
		
01:04:42 --> 01:04:44
			would you create someone who will shed blood
		
01:04:45 --> 01:04:48
			And Allah's response is to teach Adam the
		
01:04:48 --> 01:04:50
			names of the birds of the sky and
		
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52
			the creatures of the earth. How
		
01:04:52 --> 01:04:55
			is the angels objection met? So, but this
		
01:04:55 --> 01:04:57
			is a popular understanding amongst the Mufasirun
		
01:04:58 --> 01:05:00
			mainly based on the biblical
		
01:05:00 --> 01:05:03
			story, it just doesn't work in the Quran.
		
01:05:03 --> 01:05:04
			So it's actually happening.
		
01:05:04 --> 01:05:06
			It's something that you'll have to understand in
		
01:05:06 --> 01:05:08
			Surat Zimbal. Story night.
		
01:05:09 --> 01:05:12
			Thank you, thank you, Doctor. Safkab here. I
		
01:05:12 --> 01:05:13
			I think our time is,
		
01:05:13 --> 01:05:15
			up. I don't want to be,
		
01:05:16 --> 01:05:17
			I don't want to be receiving warnings from
		
01:05:17 --> 01:05:19
			those rules. For 1 minute. I really want
		
01:05:19 --> 01:05:20
			everybody to know,
		
01:05:21 --> 01:05:23
			doctor Saqib's view on remember I told you
		
01:05:23 --> 01:05:25
			aya number 3 with Nuh alaihis salaam?
		
01:05:25 --> 01:05:27
			And why that's kind of situated and he
		
01:05:27 --> 01:05:29
			had an insight into that based on the
		
01:05:29 --> 01:05:32
			perspective of the Israelites themselves. If you could
		
01:05:32 --> 01:05:32
			just
		
01:05:33 --> 01:05:35
			articulate that, that I think would be a
		
01:05:35 --> 01:05:37
			really nice conclusion to this discussion. Okay, so
		
01:05:37 --> 01:05:39
			the the surah begins with the prophet
		
01:05:40 --> 01:05:42
			being taken to Al Masjid Al Aqsa, which
		
01:05:42 --> 01:05:44
			is that which is Jerusalem,
		
01:05:44 --> 01:05:46
			the center of their religious
		
01:05:47 --> 01:05:48
			kind of worship,
		
01:05:49 --> 01:05:51
			and then it says Wa Ateen al Musa
		
01:05:51 --> 01:05:54
			Al Kitab, we gave Musa al Islam scripture,
		
01:05:55 --> 01:05:58
			and then it says what Bani Israel were
		
01:05:58 --> 01:05:59
			told to do in the scripture, the first
		
01:05:59 --> 01:06:00
			thing is
		
01:06:02 --> 01:06:04
			you will have no other you will rely
		
01:06:04 --> 01:06:06
			on no 1 except me. So this is
		
01:06:06 --> 01:06:06
			tawhid,
		
01:06:07 --> 01:06:08
			this is the first thing that they're commanded
		
01:06:08 --> 01:06:09
			to in this in scripture.
		
01:06:09 --> 01:06:11
			And then you have this
		
01:06:12 --> 01:06:13
			apparently strange shift
		
01:06:15 --> 01:06:18
			the children of those we carried with Noah.
		
01:06:18 --> 01:06:20
			So why is this sudden shift to Nuhr
		
01:06:20 --> 01:06:22
			al Islam is difficult to understand unless you
		
01:06:22 --> 01:06:23
			understand how
		
01:06:24 --> 01:06:25
			Bani Israel
		
01:06:25 --> 01:06:27
			themselves understood their responsibility.
		
01:06:27 --> 01:06:30
			They understood their responsibility as being 2 things.
		
01:06:30 --> 01:06:30
			Firstly,
		
01:06:31 --> 01:06:33
			a responsibility to Allah, Tawhid
		
01:06:33 --> 01:06:35
			and secondly, a responsibility to the other nations
		
01:06:35 --> 01:06:37
			of the world whom they called
		
01:06:38 --> 01:06:40
			Bani Nuach, the children of Noah or the
		
01:06:40 --> 01:06:43
			Noahides. So they have a responsibility to worship
		
01:06:43 --> 01:06:45
			only Allah and they have a responsibility
		
01:06:45 --> 01:06:47
			to take the message of Tawhid
		
01:06:48 --> 01:06:50
			and to take the to be a moral
		
01:06:50 --> 01:06:52
			example or light to the nations as the
		
01:06:52 --> 01:06:54
			Bible calls it to the other nations of
		
01:06:54 --> 01:06:56
			the world. So the Quran here I think
		
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58
			is saying remember your responsibility
		
01:06:59 --> 01:07:00
			to the other zuriya
		
01:07:01 --> 01:07:01
			of
		
01:07:02 --> 01:07:02
			Nuh
		
01:07:03 --> 01:07:04
			So these are the 2 things you were
		
01:07:04 --> 01:07:06
			commanded to do and then the facade,
		
01:07:08 --> 01:07:09
			can be understood in this context. What is
		
01:07:09 --> 01:07:12
			the facade that they caused? They didn't fulfill
		
01:07:12 --> 01:07:14
			their responsibility to Allah to have no other
		
01:07:14 --> 01:07:15
			wakeel except him
		
01:07:16 --> 01:07:18
			and they didn't fulfill their responsibility to their
		
01:07:18 --> 01:07:20
			fellow human beings to take this message of
		
01:07:20 --> 01:07:23
			Tawhid and this message of moral monotheism
		
01:07:23 --> 01:07:25
			out to the other nations. And that's I
		
01:07:25 --> 01:07:27
			think the the core message of this
		
01:07:27 --> 01:07:29
			whole passage is that where you have this
		
01:07:29 --> 01:07:32
			chosen nation who is going to receive profits,
		
01:07:32 --> 01:07:33
			if they don't live up to their responsibility,
		
01:07:34 --> 01:07:36
			they won't be destroyed like Ad and Samud
		
01:07:36 --> 01:07:39
			and Fir'aun, but instead they'll be humiliated and
		
01:07:39 --> 01:07:41
			the prophet is being told that this is
		
01:07:41 --> 01:07:43
			now going to be the situation that you're
		
01:07:43 --> 01:07:45
			going to be in. You are now a
		
01:07:45 --> 01:07:47
			nation which has this dual responsibility to Allah
		
01:07:48 --> 01:07:50
			and responsibility to other nations to take this
		
01:07:50 --> 01:07:52
			message to them and if you don't fulfill
		
01:07:52 --> 01:07:52
			it,
		
01:07:53 --> 01:07:55
			Allah will destroy you like you destroyed Fir'aun
		
01:07:55 --> 01:07:58
			and destroyed the people of Lut, but you
		
01:07:58 --> 01:07:59
			will face humiliation
		
01:07:59 --> 01:08:00
			through whichever Junu'ud
		
01:08:01 --> 01:08:02
			decides to choose.
		
01:08:02 --> 01:08:04
			Thank you, Doctor. Saqib. I mean, this is
		
01:08:04 --> 01:08:06
			a very strong note to finish this panel
		
01:08:06 --> 01:08:07
			discussion,
		
01:08:08 --> 01:08:08
			summarizing
		
01:08:10 --> 01:08:13
			the lesson that classical interpretation or tradition
		
01:08:13 --> 01:08:15
			is important, but it is something that is
		
01:08:15 --> 01:08:17
			open for critical inquiry
		
01:08:17 --> 01:08:21
			or addition. We should not be imprisoned by
		
01:08:21 --> 01:08:23
			our classical tradition nor do we seek liberation
		
01:08:23 --> 01:08:25
			from it. What we seek is negotiating with
		
01:08:25 --> 01:08:26
			that
		
01:08:26 --> 01:08:29
			tradition between the modern and the tradition. And
		
01:08:29 --> 01:08:30
			as we've just seen from this,
		
01:08:31 --> 01:08:33
			new, insight by doctor Saakib that,
		
01:08:34 --> 01:08:35
			that there is possibility
		
01:08:36 --> 01:08:37
			for meaningful,
		
01:08:38 --> 01:08:39
			conversation, meaningful addition
		
01:08:39 --> 01:08:42
			to that, to that tradition, and as doctor
		
01:08:42 --> 01:08:45
			Dawood also mentioned that more importantly, there is
		
01:08:45 --> 01:08:48
			also a wider context about lessons and extrapolating
		
01:08:49 --> 01:08:49
			universal
		
01:08:50 --> 01:08:50
			maxims,
		
01:08:52 --> 01:08:54
			divine norms from these lessons.
		
01:08:57 --> 01:08:59
			I hope you guys enjoyed that video clip.
		
01:08:59 --> 01:09:01
			My team and I have been working tirelessly
		
01:09:01 --> 01:09:03
			to try to create as many resources for
		
01:09:03 --> 01:09:06
			Muslims to give them first steps in understanding
		
01:09:06 --> 01:09:08
			the Quran all the way to the point
		
01:09:08 --> 01:09:10
			where they can have a deep, profound understanding
		
01:09:10 --> 01:09:12
			of the Quran. We are students of the
		
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			Quran ourselves, and we want you to be
		
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