Naima B. Robert – TMC Episode 5 Islamic Marriage Advice, Reminders and Warnings
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The speakers discuss the importance of marriage, where everyone has a clear vision for it and is given a role to play. They stress the importance of working in harmony and gratitude to achieve goals. The speakers also touch on issues of couples not being in touch with men and problems with couples not being in touch with women. The trend of women getting to the stage and feeling outgrows their partner is noted, along with a trend of couples not being in touch with men and problems with couples not being in touch with women.
AI: Summary ©
Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh. I'm Talia, it's so
good to have you with us. When it comes down to labor getting on,
I'ma thank you for inviting me. I'm just really excited to dive
into these topics because I know that this is work that you have
been doing for a while now. I know marriage is something that you're
really passionate about, and I've heard you speak on it before.
Mashallah. So I'm really looking forward to getting into today's
show, inshallah. So, I'd like to kick us off with a question that
has been kind of on my mind. And something I've been wondering
about, and this is, how does the Islamic model of marriage differ
from what we have learned from popular culture from the media,
you know, Hollywood's Bollywood songs, etc. How would you say the
Islamic model differs from what we've been taught?
And that in that Bismillah Alhamdulillah, WA Salatu was Salam
ala Rasulillah, Allah, Allah, he was happy when Allah? So very,
very good question. Nine might and I think it's very relevant to our
time, because we are affected by the society that we live in, and
what we see what we hear, what we exposed to naturally has an impact
on our attitude, our behavior, our mindset, and our expectation. And
I think when we look around, we see in the popular culture,
Bollywood, Hollywood, Lollywood, you know, all the words.
Yeah, the idea of marriage has changed over the years generation.
And what I tend to see in the news, in documentaries, and in
different short stories that's out there.
It's actually feeding people certain ways of thinking with
regards to marriage. And I think it's lacking this whole idea of
being committed.
Committed commitment is something that is key to the institution of
marriage.
I know, in the past, there was a taboo of having a divorce. But now
we have moved to another extreme where any troubles happen. We
think, Oh, I can't deal with him. Or I'm not going to tolerate this.
The thing is, in every situation in life, there has to be a level
of effort, commitment, and struggle, whether that's students
studying for GCSEs, whether it's a businessman trying to make
profits, he's not going to just quit just because he's facing a
hurdle, or difficulty, he's going to make it work because he's
committed a student who's struggling with a levels or GCSEs
or degree, he doesn't think, Oh, my God, this is too much, I'm
gonna quit. If he does, what happens in 510 years time, he
hasn't got a degree or he hasn't got his A levels or GCSEs.
Similarly,
when we look at marriage, and if we feel that you know what, I'm
going to quit because it's too hard, then you're not going to
have a successful marriage or long lasting marriage. Now, everything
in life we need to understand
that is meaningful, beneficial, is not going to come with ease. It's
going to require you to work for it, people who are successful
businessman, or successful,
say in their studies, or research, whatever form of success you look
at, if you look into their life, you will see there's a lot of
sacrifice hard work, commitment, and priorities. So I think this is
number one thing that we are seeing in the popular culture,
lack of commitment, and confusion of roles.
Talk on it, talk on it talk about talk with me and my husband, we
were watching this program about home improvement, you know, like
when you do like the decoration, you know, when you do extra, you
know, like,
like transformation of kitchen and
living room area. So there's this program on BBC iPlayer. And
the designers always struggle with what the man wants and what the
woman wants. And this particular episode was about the kitchen
extension.
And the kitchen was the man's domain. In that particular
episode, the woman is thinking I just want everything to be clean
and tidy and he's like the chef, and I thought to myself, I
wouldn't want my husband to really like in a heavy Stay in the
kitchen because that I feel is my area and I take
It pride in that because I really like cooking. And I like to try
different recipes. And you know, this is my area and and I wouldn't
like not interference. I wouldn't like oh, you know certain like
suggestions do like this doing that like that I would want to
design the area, the way I would see it fitting for what I want to
do the food I want to cook. So there was this like confusion,
this buckling and I was thinking to myself, like, you know, that
doesn't sound right. Why? Because I just find when people step into
different roles, just like in workplace. There's this chaos
because nobody knows what they're supposed to do. And everyone's
trying to interfere. And there's no like, clarity of who is
responsible, what area. So anyway, it was quite interesting to see in
the end, they have to compromise and that's the reality of life,
you have to compromise.
So I find there's a lot of confusion of roles. Whereas
Islamically or the guidelines that we have in our deen there's a
clear view of what is to be desired for marriage. In terms of
the vision for marriage, what is the vision for marriage? What is
the goal? What is the purpose? And what are the responsibilities? So
I love that. But what's the vision then? What's the goal? What is the
goal for marriage? Islamically? Okay, so let's go back to what is
the goal and purpose for an individual to be on this earth. So
we have to go back to basic as Muslim, we are here for a purpose.
My purpose is very clear to worship Allah, full stop. Now
everyone has been given a role in terms of life. They are born into
family they born into culture, they born into a specific land
with language. So Allah gives everyone a context. Okay. Yes, in
a culture. So in that we know, marriage is a universal thing.
Everyone knows. Yeah.
Now, when you look at marriage from the Islamic lens, marriage
has purpose and that is to have a life partner who will help you to
worship Allah better. Yeah. And another thing is on a human level,
is a companionship. So when we look at the creation of Adam
alayhis, salam, he was created the first man on earth, well, first
man in heaven, he felt lonely, so Allah created how're for him.
Yeah, sense of companionship. Now, when you have somebody, as a
companion companion is there to share the load,
to share the moments to make things easy, to give you pleasure
to give you company. So the journey is made easy. So consider
a road trip, when you go on a road trip by yourself. It's a bit
scary, lonely, sometimes a bit difficult, because you can't do
everything by yourself. When you have a companion, you have time
together, you have ease, because you're sharing the load of the
journey, because Jen is hard by nature. When you're a traveler,
you have so many, like, you know, difficulties and obstacles
unexpected, you know, situation that happens, isn't it?
Now, that partner is there to
make matters easy for you, to help you to support you to, you know,
love you to give you a sense of belonging, you know, when we go
back to the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yeah, yeah. No Subhan
Allah.
So that companion is there to add value to your life, you know, what
I mean? And that companion, if he's a man,
there's a role.
If you're the woman, or if he's a woman, there's a role. And those
two roles are there to complement support each other, not to create
conflict with each other. And the responsibility Allah has defined
very clearly. And those responsibility was is supposed to
work in harmony. Yeah, yeah. So when you look at the reality of
marriage, now these responsibilities, they're supposed
to be working in harmony. And there are certain things that are
like you know, what is up for negotiation? Like the details, you
know, we say the devils in the details, the details, you
negotiate, but generally, Allah says wha she ruhuna Bill my roof,
live together in goodness in harmony in kindness. Yeah. And
there are things that you may not like and you will not like because
everyone has weaknesses and strengths. But
there are others
you would like and there are goodness. So therefore overlook?
Yeah, I just want to just jump in there because I think, you know,
as you were saying all these things, I think it's, you know,
beautiful the way that you've set it out, as you were saying all
these things, it makes so much sense, right? And I'm, I'm
imagining somebody listening to you now, and saying, Yeah, well, I
don't get that. And, and so there's two things here. One is, I
wonder whether, whether it's as human beings or as women, we tend
to focus on what's not there, rather than what is there. Or we
tend to focus on what the way that we want things rather than the way
that we're getting them as they are. So for example, as you said,
you know, someone to make you, you know, to give you pleasure to keep
you company, and all of these types of things. And, you know, if
a woman is in a space, or in a marriage in a situation where she
doesn't feel like you know, he doesn't pay me enough attention,
he works too hard. You know, like, we don't do X Y Zed. Of course,
that may be the case. But I also think that sometimes we actually
overlook the value that they do bring. And I'm saying this as
somebody who has been married, in a long term, marriage, masha
Allah, and has also lived as a single parent. And I don't know
whether you, you know, you kind of have followed my journey on this.
But I do think that women who are married, especially to the father
of their children, they underestimate the value of being
in that marriage, because maybe it doesn't tick certain boxes for
them, right. But trust me, you come out of that marriage, you're
gonna see something very different. And you're gonna
realize this was all that he was doing. This is all that he was
bringing this was the impact of having him in the house, etc, etc.
I don't know, what are your thoughts on that? My mom, this is
my work in a nutshell, because I work with women in the community.
And I've been working with women on a grassroot level, for the last
20 years. Often a typical scenario, I would describe a
sisters with come to me and say, you know, my husband doesn't do
this, that the other. And then I listen attentively. And then I
point out, what about the fact that he does this? What about if
he does that? What about he does this and then they kind of stop in
their tracks? And they're like, Yeah, you know, it's like a gentle
admission of
appreciation.
And then they go away thinking that because I am trying to be,
you know, the voice of reason. And subhanAllah that changes their
attitude. And if we take that discussion back to the Prophet
salallahu alayhi salam where he said, about women to be grateful
that gratitude is So, you know,
like, popular now, you know, because we are grateful for our
husbands know,
in terms of like, you know, this whole thing about you know, like
self development, Muslims, non Muslims everywhere. Yeah, attitude
is the best attitude and Disturbia, yes hon Allah, in our
deen in our tradition, what is most beloved to Allah azza wa jal
Ilhan isn't in in a praise. Yeah. And then we have Hadith like He
who does not show gratitude to the people who is not grateful to
Allah, isn't it? Yeah, and one of the things that I try to encourage
a lot
is the sense of being grateful to your spouse, being grateful to the
people, being grateful to your children, this whole concept of
gratitude gets more out of the people because it is a positive
reinforcement. When we want something from someone, you should
give attention to that even if it's little that they're giving
you this that they're doing, you know, so hard in terms of
impressing you notice it? Yeah, if you see that they're doing so hard
that you know, trying to pull their socks in doing
like housework or helping you out or taking the children or doing
things that you we take for granted but we want them to take
more of an active role. Yeah, give attention to that because people
generally they perform better when they are acknowledged for their
performance because they make so much sense it makes so much sense
and you know, you mentioned the Hadith about you know, well let's
let's let's call it for what it is the Hadith which mentions the
majority in the Hellfire being women because of the ingratitude
to husbands specifically. Yes, guys. I went there, okay. Because
this is an honest space. Right. And this is an honest space for
brothers and sisters to have a you know, have an open conversation.
And when I first heard a brother
Well recently heard a brother mentioning that hadith.
I felt some kind of way, you know, because I was like, you know,
ungrateful.
But then now I sit with it.
And I listened to how we have sisters saying, Why should I be?
Why should I feel grateful for him doing something he's supposed to
do anyway?
Why should I feel grateful I do this, this, this, this, you know,
in the context of, you know, somebody coming into your life
and, and, you know,
taking some of the burden off you marrying you being a stepdad to
your kids or whatever, why should I feel grateful that he chose to
marry me?
And it's almost like, Okay, we talk about the importance of
gratitude in the world, right, everyone's the power of gratitude.
But it's almost like, I think it comes from the modern movement,
the feminist movement, but you know, as a woman, why should you
be grateful? Because gratitude comes from humility, doesn't it?
And we can't be humble because we're Boss Babes out here.
Let me turn this around.
A consider yourself. You do the cooking or you do the shopping or
you do the teaching. Yeah, maybe you're a homeschooling mom. Or
maybe you are, you know, a stay at home mom, or maybe you're working
mom. Yeah. And somebody says, you know, I noticed you really take
your time in doing the cooking. Although you have a busy schedule,
you cook nutritious meal. Yeah. They just point that out to you.
Do you feel so chuffed? Do you? So appreciate it. Do you feel so
like, you know,
the sense of acknowledgement. Yeah, you know, and what does that
do to you? In reality? It makes you want to give more? Yes, it
does, isn't it? Yes, your friend you know, she she says to you
know, whenever I go through troubled times, you're always
there for me. She buys you a bunch of flour, chocolate, or she even
takes you out for a meal. Do you feel like giving back to that
friend even more? You feel seen exactly thing? Exactly. If you are
appreciated, you want to give more and this is exactly what Allah
says. He says, Let in Shaka Ito, as it intercom. If you are
grateful, I will give you more on the tongue of Musa Listen, that's
the first time and he gives to his people. Because Bani Israel, they
were on another level. You know why? Because gratitude
intrinsically draws people towards them, you know, if you are
grateful to some people, then they would give you more because they
know that you are appreciative. And that appreciation, you know,
it benefits you why because you get more out of that person. You
know, and I think that's the secret to marriage, if you want
your husband to more to do more things for you. Peek grateful,
because they will give you more, you know, And subhanAllah in some
time, we have this culture in our house. And
you know, whenever we have, you know, like, say a treat, you know,
and it's like an occasion. So, I will say to my husband, you know,
just said hello, hi. And and because that meant I didn't have
to worry about the food side, you know, and it's like, it's a real
treat, you know, because we know when we have to do the cooking,
there's cleaning and there's you know, obviously tidying up and
things like that. But when you have a treat, whether you go out
or you know, get food in that means, you know, you can relax
that period of time and do other things that you want to do. And
then I would hear my son, he would also follow after me because he's
seen a culture of you know, I should, you know, have this
attitude. Well, I always cook so once in a while, you know, he
should. That's not the that's not the positive attitude. That's an
attitude of entitlement. Nobody likes that there. That's the word
right there in title. Yeah, nobody. It's like you at work when
you say to your boss, I just want to say that you know, you're very
understanding boss, you always give us time off when we need to.
Do you think the boss will say no, when you want to have another time
on? This is Game sisters. Okay, I hope you're listening to the boss
would feel obliged. We would feel like
this compassion to let you have the leave. You know, as long as
obviously you don't abuse the system. But the point I'm trying
to make is when you acknowledge people's graciousness, and
people's kindness, they will give you more, they will give you more.
We know they will, because Allah says so makes total sense. Because
you were too wouldn't you if if you were acknowledged and when you
are acknowledged for doing the things that you're supposed to do.
And someone says thank you or you know, they really enjoyed the meal
or you know, any kind of acknowledgement. It makes you feel
good about having done what you did, right
So it makes sense to pay that forward. Mashallah, exactly. And,
you know, on the other side, you know, say, if you're managing
people, your employee, you know, and you want best kind of service
or performance from them as a boss, because, you know, as a
founder of martial arts, I'm leading a team of six, seven
women. And often I have to delegate tasks, because I can't do
everything, you know, I have to delegate tasks. And when I'm
delegating, you know, I always say thank you after saying, Can you do
this, can you do that, and Subhanallah, I must say, you know,
people, you know, they, they, over time I have observed, that we have
progressed in in terms of academically, but socially, we
have gone back, we don't have the basic skills of being with people
or people skills were lacking people skills, because, you know,
dealing with people is not the same as dealing with technology is
different technology to switch it on, switch it off with people, you
have to understand the temperaments, the mood, the time
the space, and you have to be sensitive to that, you know, and
you have to have a level of say empathy when you're dealing with
people and I think people are lacking that and that's why maybe
there's a lot of discussion about emotional intelligence because we
are not, you know, in touch with the human side of
communication, technological communication, masha Allah, we
there. But when it comes down to dealing with human, and that's
what we need to pay attention to. The prophecies are he he was the
best of teachers, and he taught us how to be with the people when
you're speaking to people. Maybe they're going through a very, you
know, rough day, maybe they are going through some kind of loss,
maybe they are, you know, going through some kind of financial
stress. So your tone has to adjust to the temperament.
Yeah, and even what you say subhanallah, you know, you
mentioned about, you know, technology. So, I'm wondering, you
know, in your work, or just in terms of your observation, what
would you say, has been the impact of social media on Muslims and
Muslim marriages? I think it's raised a unrealistic expectation
of what marriage should be like. You see, when people see certain
images, they only seeing one aspect of that story. Yeah. Maybe
it's a superficial aspect of that story, or that marriage or that
relationship. So they're thinking, Well, my life doesn't look like
this. But what they don't realize is probably taken that couple
couple of takes before they got that final shot. Yeah. So I think
that is creating a, like a, like, a, it's like a fantasy, you know,
that, you know, my marriage, you know, she'd be like this, or it's
not like this, you know, and it's kind of making us look down on
what we have in our relationship. And that's very unhealthy. Why?
Because we know in our tradition, you know, we should always look to
people who have lesser than us, not more than us. Why? Because
when we look at people who have lesser than us in, in inevitably
to make us grateful. But when we always look at people who have
things that we don't have, what's going to do, what's that going to
do to us is going to make us feel ungrateful. And because we always
seeing people having more than us are better than us, supposedly,
supposedly.
But when you look closely, the reality is quite different.
Because you know, we often think the grass is greener on the other
side. But the reality is, the truth is, the grass is green,
wherever you water it. Boom. Yeah. 100%. So what are the biggest
issues that you're seeing then? Over the last five years, what
have been the biggest issues facing making? In a nutshell, it's
a commitment issue. There is a lack of commitment. But I think we
see certain symptoms. And that could be that people think finance
is causing problem to their marriage. And it is it does
contribute. People think is the inlaws especially where I'm from
sub, you know, like the Southeast Asian countries, people think
it's,
you know,
say,
being too busy in life, not making time for each other. You see, all
of these things can be sorted out if the commitment is there. Yeah,
people may blame, you know, he doesn't do his roles and
responsibility and he's not taking
Marriage, you know, seriously, he's not contributing, these are
the common complaints. So if I was to categorize them, there is
obviously responsibility. There is finance, there is infidelity,
there is in laws.
And these things, obviously, they don't come about just like that
there are telltale signs. And I think if people had commitment,
and then they made an effort to be on the same page with the opposite
gender, then these telltale signs signs they will be able to spot
early on. Right. And I think what people don't realize, and this is
something that I have said to quite a few people is before a
couple separate physically, they separate emotionally. Yeah.
Yeah. Now, one of your question, was the thing about midlife
crisis, and what is happening around that time? Now to really
think about this point, because I was thinking, midlife crisis,
supposedly, if you look it up is from the age of 40 to 63, or 64.
I couldn't help but think about how the Prophet SAW was him. He
got Naboo at the age of 40.
And he lived until the age of 6310 years in,
you know, 13. Altogether, he had 23 years for spreading Islam. And
I was thinking, Islam gives a very clear vision for that mid life.
Mission, not crisis mission, mid life mission or life like that.
Yeah. Why? Because that is the time where you're really at the
final like sprinter of your, say, race or journey. You know, when
the horse is about to end the journey, it goes faster, it really
goes for it. Why? Because
your life matters, how he ends, more than how it begins. Because,
you know, the way you end your life, that's a good indication of
how your afterlife will begin,
isn't it? So, for us, as Muslims, when we are hitting that point, we
should be thinking, okay, how can I raise the bar? Because, you
know, the lifespan of the Muslim community is what 6465 The
prophets have said, you know, it's in the 60s, this other time to be
experimenting and figuring out and having your, like, you know, say,
tantrums or doing whatever you want to do. You know, this is a
time to think, Okay, I need to focus. This is a time of focus,
and hence why Naboo came at that time, because it's a time of
Bulava should that maturity, you know,
but when I was looking into this question, because I was thinking,
okay, so why does this trend of midlife, you know, crisis come
come about? And how to avoid it, you know, so I was doing a bit of
research to understand what do they say, you know, And
subhanAllah, what I was thinking is that, as a believer, as a human
being,
we have to live our life, to the best of our ability, irrespective
of the age that we're in. So we see that in the spirit of the
process, and the Prophet of Islam would nurture and empower and
encourage young Sahaba youngest 13 Abdullah bin Abbas, you know, the
famous Hadith where he was writing behind him and he was saying to
him, be mindful of Allah and you know, you would find Allah
supporting you that long Hadith in 40. Hadith, and then be fine. He
advised older companions, and which companions, mature
companions. But what does that show us? It shows us that whatever
age you're at, you still have to be striving for excellence. Yeah,
this is okay. There's I want to jump in. I want to jump in because
this is really important and, and why I'm jumping in is because the
trend in this context is women getting to the stage and feeling
like this is not what I want for the rest of my life.
We love each other, but we're not in love. Or I love him like a
friend. We're roommates.
Maybe the children are growing maybe they've grown and I'm saying
this based on so many sisters getting in touch and even there's
been some some shows about it actually some some some YouTube
series where they've discussed this phenomenon of couples just
Apparently couples, but I suspect it's mainly the women because the
women are the ones in general with the higher expectations of the
relationship, right? I think most men, if they're comfortable, they
will stay. It doesn't have to be five stars, it doesn't have to be
amazing. It doesn't have to be exciting. It doesn't have to be
something new. As long as they're there. Okay, they will pretty much
stay. And I don't know what the you've seen this, but this is. And
it's sometimes been surprising, because it's like, well, how can
you be happy with this? This is where the woman is saying, Well,
we know we hardly do this. We don't do that anymore. You know,
we're not this anymore. We're not there anymore. Like, aren't you
unhappy, as unhappy as I am? And he's like, I'm fine. You know,
like, we're okay. Anyway, the context of this is a conversation
that was had about divorce in the Muslim community, and not
necessarily divorced based on like, toxic relationships, or like
bad things happening. But couples just growing apart, or the woman
feeling she's outgrown the husband, or she's outgrown that
marriage. And that's happening a lot in the Muslim community now in
this generation, where I have women messaging me saying, you
know, my husband is, he's a good man. But I feel I've outgrown him,
you know, I'm doing this now. I'm doing that now. I'm doing this,
I'm doing that. And he doesn't want to do those things with me.
And he doesn't have a growth mindset. So I feel like I can't
grow with him anymore. I feel stifled and all of this stuff. I
don't know, maybe you haven't seen it in your practice. But it's
definitely something that's happening in our generation. So do
you have any thoughts on that? You know, it's, it's, you know,
interesting, you're saying that because there is a change in
mindset with regards to marriage, and I have seen the attitude of,
you know, while I don't love him anymore, or I'm not on the same
page, we're doing things together. I hear what you're saying. But
what I'm trying to say is that your journey, and your aspiration
doesn't have to be shared by your husband. It's an important point
to make sense. Yes, an important point, you need to say that the
thing is,
you are an individual, you have your own hopes, you have your own
dreams, you need to separate that from your relationship, your
parenting, you see, when we look at ourself, we need to look at
different areas of our life, you know, our professional or personal
our relationship, our community, and then our spiritual where we
are with Allah azza wa jal, you know where we are with our say,
self care. So the different areas, the thing is yet, we have this
idealistic idea that we want everything to kind of be together.
If not, sometime your children won't be in the same page with
regards to your new tissues, ideal.
Sometime, you know, your extended families will not share the same,
like taste in makeup or your dresscode. It's okay. You might
like certain things more flamboyant than others, that's
fine. That's your taste. That's your passion. No one has to share
your passion. You know, it's fine. The thing is, when people say that
we are growing apart,
here's the thing, any relationship, you will fall apart,
if you don't make that conscious effort of being together, if
you're not sleeping together, if you're not eating together, if
you're not, you know, going out together, if you're not converse,
having conversation together, of course, you're gonna fall apart.
Of course, you know, the thing is, relationship. Intimacy doesn't
happen in like, you know, invoice in a vacuum. You have to make
time, effort, and conscious commitment that you're going to
spend time you're going to eat together. We're going to go out
together, and that togetherness brings the heart together. That's
why Subhanallah there's a lot of emphasis on, you know, sitting
together being together, and I don't mean just two bodies. On the
phone. That's not togetherness. You're physically in the one space
but you're emotionally mentally you're in two different worlds.
That's not togetherness.