Naima B. Robert – The {VIRTUAL} Salon Sexual Abuse in the Muslim Community Pt 2
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The speakers discuss the importance of educating children on body safety rules and respecting women and men, as well as teaching parents to respect and respect body safety rules. They stress the need for parents to teach children to not force children to do anything they don't want to and to avoid being exposed to sexual weapons. The speakers also emphasize the importance of educating children about their rights and responsibilities and protecting children from abuse. They emphasize the need for transparency and transparency in communication with parents and children.
AI: Summary ©
Yeah, so my question is, you know, what, what do we do with that
knowing on the one hand that, you know, Islamically, these are the
carotid. These are people we should be able to trust with our
children, etc. But then also knowing that 90% of perpetrators
will be of those close, you know, of those close family members, how
do we now balance that within our families? And that the dynamic
within our families?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important not, um, there's two
aspects of this. There's an aspect that this is something which isn't
a Muslim issue.
It's a societal one, obviously, of course, you know, so that's the
first thing. The second thing is, isn't with regards to Muslims, and
it'd been family members, then, generally speaking, you're
speaking about? I mean, you're, you know, in most cases, you're
talking about, for example, family members that are non I guess, I'd
have to see the data. But I'm assuming that you're speaking
about uncles that are not not necessarily people that are
supposed to be they're not immediate family members,
hopefully, I'm not sure, I'd have to look at the data. I don't know
what. But I mean, this, I mean, this type of situation is avoided
in two ways. Number one, the boundaries of Islam talks about
the,
you know, segregation of the sexes, with regards to sitting
down together. And then there's other aspects of, even when they
may be Muharram, for example, it's not necessarily it's not
necessarily that they're going to be alone, in,
you know, circumstances which facilitates this is a point which
facilitates, and allows for sexual abuse to happen. So for example,
it generally, it generally doesn't happen.
Publicly, it's generally privately, they're doing some type
of kind of, you know, you know, you know, sleeping over stuff,
like, you know, these things and a lot of, you know, private contact,
is there, some of them in some of our households, the kind of a lot
of footfall, a lot of relatives in and out a lot of friends or
relatives coming in and out, should you decide to go to you for
a second just to, just to educate us a little bit insha Allah on
what, how can we equip our children to to be that first line
of defense? In a way, obviously, there's something that we can do
in terms of regulating the environment, but what do our
children? What do we need to teach them? And when do we start
teaching them? Okay, thank you so much for asking me that, um, what
the first thing we need to do is we as parents, we need to be
educated so that we can empower our children. So how do we educate
ourselves? I remember previously, you asked a question, what is it
that you look for within sexual abusers, so if a parent can know
this information, then they can keep an eye out, because there's a
process called grooming, and I'm speaking specifically about
childhood sexual abuse, and what the grooming process it's, it's
over a period of time, because with Child sexual abusers, they
don't immediately just go and * your child, they develop a level
of trust. And they, they develop a level of trust, and they see how
they can cross boundaries. So they see if they can cross a boundary
where they start with secrets. You know, this is just our secret your
mindset, you can have any ice screen, but I'm gonna give it to
you anyway, that's our secret. That way, they know that they can
constantly teach the child to keep the secret. So as a parent, if you
teach one of the body safety rules, which is we don't keep
secrets in our home, and that sexual abuser tells the child this
is our secret. And it may be a simple secret, like I'm gonna give
you this gift. This is our secret. You're not supposed to wear red
hijab, but I'm gonna give you this you can wear it at my house a
secret, even if it's an auntie is the uncle as a grandmother. It's a
nanny. It's a me whoever your child says, No, we're not allowed
to keep secrets. They know that your child has been educated with
the body safety rules. They are going to leave your child and
they're going to look for someone more vulnerable that they can
attack because they don't want to be found out. So if you arm
yourself with knowing prevention, education, but teaching your
children or body safety rules, such as I am the boss of my body,
I am in control of my body. My body belongs to me. I don't have
to give any form of affection when you say kiss Carla give Carla
kiss.
You gotta you're being rude. Now. I don't want to kiss Carla. I
don't want to kick call. I don't want to kiss my auntie. I don't
want to kiss my uncle. And I just really just jumped in there for a
second because this is a big cultural thing. Certainly in
African cultures. We have a theme of respecting our elders. And
really, you know, you're supposed to do what your parents tell you
if the if the dad gronckle
Once a hug, you give him a hug. Otherwise you're being rude.
You're being disrespectful if Auntie wants a kiss, you know,
there isn't an idea of kind of consent when it comes to children,
or respecting or boundaries when it comes to children. I think this
is a very new thing, guys. Let me know in the comments if you agree,
but shall Yeah, have you seen this to be like a new thing is is
something we should be teaching our children. For example, I had a
stepson who did not like physical contact at all. But everyone
always forced him, of course, because he's a kid, right? So they
wouldn't grab him, he would run away from them, but they would
actually chase him and hug him. And they will be like, No, that's
rude hug Auntie Auntie wants a hug. Auntie wants a hug. And he
would keep resisting and being weird about it until I realized
that in the end, this is a boundary for him like this is
something he's not comfortable with, for whatever reason, is that
something we should be respecting? In our children? Yes. And that's
something that we should teach. And as adults, we should also say,
Why is he uncomfortable? But hugging it? Why is he running
away? What is he trying to tell us because what happens is, when we
force our children to show affection, we're teaching them
that you don't, you're not in charge of your body, you don't
have the right to your body, you are not allowed to establish
boundaries. So what happens when a sexual abuser goes to touch them,
they don't know how to establish the boundaries and say, no, stop,
I don't want to do that. You're not supposed to do that. Why?
Because you force me to hurt someone, you force someone to
touch me. And that person that you could be forcing could be a sexual
abuser. So it's important to teach your child you are the boss of
your body, you can say, now you have to speak, you have to give
sometimes, but if you can give, you can show affection any way you
want to. But you also as parents, you have to teach other adults
that so that you're not forcing our children. If I meet your
child, I'll say to your child, and even my nieces and nephews. And
I've even had a parent tell me what hungers? What do you ask him
for? I say, can I give you a high five? Can I give you a hug? Why?
Because I'm teaching that child that they have the right to their
body, they're the boss of their body, they are in control if they
don't want to be touched. Even me it even me, mommy, even me, your
teacher. I don't have to, I don't have to have you. I'm an educator.
I've been in the education industry for over 20 years, I
lived in Morocco, other than Syria, I lived in UAE. I taught in
Erlang for five years, and we know that our culture, you kiss and you
hug and do whatever. But I'm not forcing a child because I'm taking
away their boundaries. And I'm making them feel like they don't
have the right to speak out. If they don't feel comfortable, we
have to move this out of our culture, we have to move this away
from Islam, because we're taking away the children's power. Also,
we have to learn one up because there's five body safety rules.
You know, one, like I said, the secrets, I spoke about secrets,
why we shouldn't teach our children to keep secrets, because
of the secret relationship that sexual abusers create. They create
a secret sexual relationship. This is just you and I, they find a
child that is vulnerable. They chat, find the child that doesn't
know the body safety rules, they find the child that needs a little
bit more attention, they find the chat and then you know, I'm going
to give you sneakers, I'm going to give you this T job. I'm going to
call you all they listen to the child and the things that the
child complains about. And they become their special person, they
become their special friend. And this is our secret. Don't tell
anyone, we eliminate secrets at the age of three. This is when we
teach the body safety goals. And we teach it over and over and over
and over again. So that if the sexual abuser tries to tell them
to keep a secret, oh, we don't keep secrets, that's against the
rules, they will go on to the next child. So that's what that's how
we are protecting our children and edition. We don't talk about this
in Islam, you have to teach your children the proper names of their
body parts. We have to talk about the body, we have to call the
private part for what it is we have to have these discussions why
this? Yeah, I'm gonna just wait I just want to jump in there. Just
jump in there quickly because this actually kicking off in the
comments. And I know that this is a real edge for parents. It really
I know I remember working with a woman who was a nurse and all her
children knew that you know the Anna the names of the anatomy. And
I was scandalized. I was so shocked. I was like oh no, you did
and she was like, Oh, yes, I did. Explain why. Why should we be
using the the why can't we say twinkle and tutu and all of this
stuff which makes it sound cute. What's what is the problem with
that? I'll tell you a story. There was a little girl she was in
either preschool or kindergarten, maybe four or five years old. She
went to school will love story. And she was telling her teacher,
my uncle like my cookie
In my alcoholic my cookie, and she was saying it over and over again.
So the teacher, she didn't pay it any mind. Because Okay, he cookie,
you let your cookie was the big deal. And the little girl she went
on for like two three days trying to disclose her abuse. But because
she didn't know the proper name of her private part, what happened,
she didn't, she didn't get any help. She didn't get any help. And
when a child needs to disclose the abuse that's happening, they need
to be able to say she touched my private part. And by its name, she
touched he touched it. Also, it removes, it removes the shame, it
removes the blame. It helps to remove the discomfort. It's just
your body part is a part of your body just like your eyes, your
nose, your ears, your mouth, so that you can constantly have these
conversations. When we talk about the body. Children talk about the
body real life story, there was a boy who was being abused by a
woman, she was his nanny from the age of four until seven, she lived
with this point. And although they talked about sexual abuse in their
home, they didn't talk about it. The mother didn't know what to do
when when she suspected it. But the boy wouldn't say anything.
When the boy opened up to disclose the abuse to his mother, he said
I was scared to go into the bathroom, because I thought they
were going to come in and touch me the same way for Lana touched me.
She touched me in my and he said the name of his private area, and
it hurt. What did that do that let the mother know without a shadow
of a doubt what this person did. And the little boy was confident
enough to talk about his favorite part. Then what happened after
that the mother started showing him pictures of the amazing body,
which is a child's book, the child's book where you talk about
how babies are made, talked about the woman's the woman's body, the
child's body, it helps the child who at that time was nine years
old to have the vocabulary, the child walked around for some four
or five years thinking he got the meat pregnant, because of what
happened to his body. What happened to his body. So if we
talked about the body, and and we had these conversations with our
children, it will help your child to No, no, this isn't supposed to
be happening until you're an adult. This is what happens to
your body. The end, like I said, every moves to discomfort. And
that's what we want to do. We want to remove the discomfort so we can
constantly teach our children about body safety. If we don't
talk about the body, we can't talk about body safety. We can't make
it disgusting and nasty. You have a penis, that's just something
that's that's all I should waste. What can you teach besides the
name, and you teach your daughters the names? And I just Yeah, you
said it. So there you go.
And
talking about and there's two more important because you asked me
about the body safety rules. There's two more parts that we
talked about the private part, we talked about, you know, teaching
your children that they are in charge of their body, we talked
about the secrets, we have to also teach our children what their
private areas, what their, their private parts are not just the
names, but you know, teaching them the mouse is a private point. What
you know, even though we can see it, everything covered by your
bathing suit as a private blog, put your mouth as a private part
two. Why? Because sexual abusers may never, ever, ever penetrate
your child, but they may tell the child to perform oral * on them.
Or they may perform oral * on your child, my mouth is a private
part, no one should touch my mouth. No one should make me touch
them in their mouth. So we have to teach them that and the last one,
which is so important for parents, and children, creating safety
circles. What we find with a lot of parents is what goes on in my
house stays in my house, you are only to come to me, I am the one
I'm your mother. You know, I'm your only that's your Abby, don't
talk to anyone else. Parents get children make it to a point where
they don't want to tell their parents, something is happening
with them. Their parents may be the perpetrators. So we create
safety circles, which is five people that we know and we trust
that knows the body safe thing that your child can disclose to
them and they can help your child. So this is a very, very, very
important part of safety, abiding safety education, having five
people and your child needs to know you can and you sit down with
your child and you create that safety circle. And you say okay,
you go to ATM ATM. If outlet doesn't get you have you go to Abu
Yusuf. If uncle Yusuf doesn't get you out, you go to your teacher if
your teacher doesn't get you out, but one of the people from the
safety circle cannot be a part of the family. Why?
My brother is sexually abusing my child. And just like the men and
the brother was saying earlier, if it's someone in a family, and we
want to protect the family's name, we want to protect the family
honor, and this child is telling, and no one in the family is
helping that one person that is not a part of the family is
wanting to get your child help. Because I have allegiance to this
child, I don't have allegiance to this family, I'm going to report
this abuse, I'm going to get justice for this child, I'm going
to get therapy for this show. And this child is going to know that
they are safe because I help them. So those are ways in minimizing
one to one scenarios with our children. Pay attention to anyone
that gives your child a little bit extra attention. Pay attention to
someone that constantly wants to be around children, give them
gifts, always, you know, tickling, playing. roughhousing pay
attention to all of that, because those are the things that sexual
abusers do to bring my children. I know I have to let someone else
speak.
We're gonna have to have like some kind of graphic with those rules.
Insha Allah says, And definitely we will share that with everybody
who's on the mailing list. So
yeah, and there's a book and we will send the link to the book to
the mailing list as well. Inshallah, thank you so much. Yes,
Rosaline. Hi. I want to add to that as well. Another thing with a
girl, especially if you have daughters, when it comes to them
wearing the hijab, don't say it is because you're pretty. And you
don't want because I know this happens a lot that people say to
the daughter that oh, you need to cover yourself because you're too
pretty. Now what that does is it creates that shame in the girl and
makes us think that I'm going to be victimized or something's going
to happen to me if I don't wear the hijab. No, I don't cover my
face, because I think I'm beautiful. I cover my face because
I believe there's a commandment from Allah. And you have to teach
your children that difference. Rather than objectifying the hijab
and sexualizing it, you're telling them the reason why you're wearing
it is for the, for the sake of Allah is a commandment from Allah.
So anything I wanted to add to that,
Camilla did you want to jump in?
And also, knowing that * is an act of control is not an act of
intimacy. It's not because you're cute. It's not because you're
beautiful. It's an act of power. And it's an act of control.
*, that's different. You know, that's different. There's
sexual abusers too, but they literally actually they lust over
any child that doesn't show any form of puberty without him. But
sexual abuse is not a form of because you're cute, because
you're beautiful, because I finally love you because
you were to this. Okay. That's important to know, as Pamela. Yes.
Camilla. Yeah. So um, just something that was touched on
earlier that I just wanted to go back to where we were talking
about 90%. And the system of sale about 90% of children knowing who
their abuser was, and I think it was picked up that it would be a
family member. But that's it. That's not what it is, although
familiar is number one, it will be someone they know and that person
could be their teacher, their scout leader, their Quran teacher,
so it will be someone that is familiar to them. That is what the
statistics will say. It's so I think it was interpreted when I
was worried was he was speaking to Abdul Wahid that it was
interpreted as family members. Um, they're included, and it also is
family members, and its asset people that they know and trust
and love. So not just Yeah, no, I know you did this, but I think the
brother picked it up incorrectly as family. So I was just
highlighting that maybe that was my bad because I went in there
with the Macron thing. Yes, yes. Just Just in case, anyone
misunderstood that there is people that they know and trust. So
let's, let's just take a round up. Now, Inshallah, because of time, I
know that it's a really, really, we could probably talk about this
for the next three hours. But let's, for the sake of the this
session, let's round up with our thoughts on what parents need to
be aware of, or what can parents do differently from today,
listening to the session, hearing from you know, you guys and
thinking about these issues for ourselves? How can parents empower
themselves to share to try to help their children to shield their
children to help them you know, to keep them safe. If you'd like to
just go I'll start with Camilla and go round. Before we wrap up
the session and go into q&a afterwards.
The knowledge, knowledge does knowledge of what abuse is the
forms that it takes, who could be a perpetrator and having the
knowledge and the confidence and being equipped with knowing how,
how to react if your child discloses, because your reaction
says a lot and who you can go to for help because as I said, it's a
long journey and it's very easy to kind of bash peers.
I won't, but you've got to remember, some of them are really
ignorant about it, or it's been intergenerational. So Well, it
happened to me. And we, I'm alright, you know, I've had 10
kids with your dad, and we've made a go of it. So you can make a go
of it. So as much as we might feel anger and thinking, Well, why did
you turn that blind eye, we also have to realize that that person
may have actually been a victim as well. And that we need to, you
know, everyone wants the same results. We want justice, but we
need to think about how we go about getting that. So I think
that's definitely important when we're dealing with parents, we're
not to jump off on a tangent here. But do you not feel that once it's
disclosed and reported, it's almost out of your hands, kind of
what happens is up to a brother to what he was saying, basically, if
you know that there's been abuse, and you do not disclose, you could
be well, it's a crime, firstly, and that, you know, you couldn't
even get drawn in there. So you were saying earlier, which I
thought was really important, us respecting the wishes of the
victim, and how the victim wants to see justice. But once it's
handed up to the justice system, isn't that out of our hands?
Really?
Not? Yes. And no, not always necessarily. Because, as I said,
that if say, for instance, it might be someone who's older that
discloses to you, and it may have been something that happened to
them when they were really young. At that time, there may not be no
duty on you to report it. However, obviously, if it's a five year old
child telling you, then you're duty bound to report it. Again,
there is a system in place, and yes, you're saying it can be taken
out of your hands. But what I'm talking about is maybe an adult
who has been abused, they're now older, so they're overeating. And
they've come to you and they've said, Well, you know, this is what
I want, at this moment in time, I don't have the courage and I don't
have the strength to go to court, I cannot face my perpetrator,
whatever. In regards to a child. And this is completely different.
And for anyone who ever watched that documentary about the girls
in Rochdale, the three girls, that whole scandal and that court case
changed the way that you can deal with someone in court, the way
that you can talk to someone in a police station, so many things had
to come in place because those girls were taken. And they were
literally violated over and over again by the prosecution, by the
judges, by everybody. You know, these poor girls were, what they
were put through, you know, mothers described it, as, you
know, watching their child being thrown into a fire and having
their hands tied behind their back and not being able to do anything
for that child. So so many different things came into place
on how we react to this. So when we talk about that, of course,
yes, someone may be prosecuted. Definitely leave a child
discloses. But again, I've had disclosures from someone have a
four year old child, and at the moment that authorities and the
police are very, very slow with it, there hasn't been an arrest
made, even though they know who the perpetrator is. And because
the reason why is because of the age of the perpetrators that
they're now looking at, well, is this a perpetrator is a victim. So
there's so it's really complex. It's not as black and white. As
someone discloses, you arrest the person and they go to jail. Okay.
Okay. Thank you. And we're Yeah, fantastic. Sharia.
I, Camilla, she, she said, So many. So many of the things that I
would actually have said also, but in addition, constantly have
conversations with your children. On Wednesdays on my Facebook page,
I am and my Instagram page, I have an activity called weather. And
it's weather scenarios. And I say a lot of what if scenarios to
parents, I call it what if Wednesday's to parents? And what
if your child said this to you? Why did this happen? So now, I
found that I'm going to have it for children, so that we can say
these, I can say these different scenarios to them, and just to
reduce their vulnerability, and let them be free to talk about how
they will respond. If this happens, what would they say? What
would they do? We have to constantly have these
conversations, take advantage of teachable moments at all times,
learn the body safety rules, teach the body safety rules to our
children, and create prevention teams, create safety circles,
those things are so important. Educating yourself and educating
your children will help will help us to protect our children,
because prevention is possible through education and awareness.
And I also offer workshops to for you know, the Muslim community.
And but most importantly, like I said, have these conversations,
you know, teach the children a body safety rules, go over what if
scenarios, and let your child know that if something like this happen
to them, it is not their fault, that you believe them, that they
are safe, and you're going to get them help, because you don't even
know if your child has been abused by someone. So they constantly
hear these words. Even if you're
body responded and it liked it and they liked it. Know that it's not
your fault. There could be a mother abusing their child, it
could be your wife abusing your child, it could be your husband
abusing your child. But if we teach the child the body safety
rules and let them know, even if it's mommy, daddy, Auntie grandma,
anyone? My job is to keep you safe.
Yeah, yeah. Just like allow Phaedra Rosaleen, I'm sorry, I
don't want to preempt what you're going to say. But I really would
like you to just offer, you know, the US as parents, you know, is it
possible to heal from the trauma of say, of child sexual abuse
100% 100%, especially with the work I do, which is rapid
transformational therapy, actually take my my clients, the victims of
abuse, I take them back to the event, and I help them review it,
not relive it. So a lot of us think that if I go back to the
traumatic event, I'm going to, you know, be I'm gonna relive it, I'm
going to feel the pain again. But no, I helped the person review.
And when she review it, and change the meaning around it, usually the
meaning is, I'm a bad person, I'm too pretty. I asked for it. Maybe
I was wearing tight clothes, all these things that the women feel,
because that's why the sexual abuse happened. That's the reason
why you feel traumatized by it, because you're blaming yourself.
So through rapid transformation therapy actually helped the client
overcome that, overcome that change that meaning to know I'm
taking my power back, I'm no longer going to let that
perpetrator have power over me, by making me feel bad about myself.
And that's the key to healing from the trauma of sexual abuse. So
for you know, for parents, we heard in the, in the chat in
particular, a lot of parents who say things like, how will you ever
get married, nobody will want to marry you, you know, if you
disclose, then you're like a tarnished, you know, like, damaged
person. You know, is it possible for, you know, victims of child
sexual abuse to go on to a healthy adult life and be healed? Yes, it
definitely 100% Because for me, personally, I was sexually abused
between the ages of birth to the age of four. And it was from a
person that was obviously supposed to care for me. So for me, I
created unhealthy patterns as I grew up into teenage years. But
when I healed from that trauma traumatic event, I was able to put
boundaries in place. And I was able to stop people pleasing, stop
seeking validation, stop speaking, seeking love and attention, other
people. And I was able to give that to myself. It's something
that I do is call healing the child within. And a lot of us have
wounded children, especially when you're sexually abused and you're
an adult, you have a wounded child with a breach there isn't that
there is in the trauma, there's like something at that point, yes,
I can't tell you the worst thing is that when your innocence is
taken away, and your trust at the same time, that is the worst place
to be in because you're you know, you're in a land of like, is like,
like a land of like never ending is that you remember the trauma.
But then you think of yourself, can I trust myself? Is this true?
So you can't your innocence has been taken away, your trust has
been taken away, but it can be healed? Once you change the
meanings that you've created around that traumatic event. Does
that allow
the warhead? Are you able to come on?
I just go to Sofia and come back to otherwise, I would like you to
maybe give us you know, what is the role of the masjid and imams
in this conversation?
With regards to I think there's a lot of valid points that
your guests have made. But I think with regards to the first of all,
just before we got to the masters and
their community, like the Imams and stuff like that
is the reality of this type of scenario. situation. Abuse is a
misuse of trust. And it's a bit difficult to be able to I think it
was Camilla that was mentioned and or one of your other guests, you
need to address the perpetrators. Because you're looking at for
example, an issue of them doing something which is a crime a sin
is a the biggest breach of trust, basically. So it's a case of
addressing as a massive example the Imams, the community. It's not
necessarily about saying okay, look, there's sexual abuse that
happens in the community. And now it's about highlighting the
severity of betrayal of the manner that ALLAH SubhanA has given you
the muscle Lee that you have with regards to your children or with
regards to for example, your siblings or your relatives and a
lead and trying to instill in people a basically an
understanding that, you know, there are certain things which
when you do them, the consequences going to be huge. Basically, if
this like an afterlife, because ultimately you have to stop the
perpetrator is difficult after the time you speak about healing. You
want to prevent it before it happens. You don't want it to
happen in the first place. And I think that there's a danger. It's
a very sensitive topics are very difficult.
But there's a danger also in,
you know, at what point are questions?
With regards to teaching kids at what point do you teach them? Or
do you tell them of certain things that happen, like when they become
aware of it when it becomes relevant to them. So there's a
danger of actually, if you want to be careful not to implant in them
suspicion of everyone that they're supposed to trust at the same
time, as well as make them resilient. In case of that
happening. We don't need to be feeling okay, that person could
potentially be, you know, every every touches and abuse, every
kiss is a, you get what I'm saying. So it's a very difficult
topic, when you're dealing with children, especially at a young
age, when you educate them on these things. So these things
haven't come to their mind, for example, but it's something that
could happen. So you have to be very careful. That's, I think, a
key point, which you don't want to kind of, you know, put something
in there, which isn't already there. You go, I mean, and then
they'd be the mistress of everybody. That's not how you're
supposed to live, you can't go and live in thinking that everybody's
a potential abuser, that's also incorrect. Every close family
member who's for example, you know, you're sitting on your, you
know, with your, your, your, your glove on your plate off your desk,
you know, I mean, so you need to be careful. It's totally stealing
the kids is a very sensitive issue. And to be very careful, the
main thing is the perpetrator, the perpetrator, the one that needs
to, you know, again, it's a very difficult situation, like I said,
so the Imams going back to the question, the imams in the
masajid, and the community leaders are taking me through this because
I don't think it's, I don't think it's just an imam. It's a It's
anyone that's a chief of a family, for example, you know, he's got a,
he's got a large family, they meet up every year, for example, he's
got an obligation to remind everybody in that family of their
responsibility before Allah subhanaw taala are going to be
questioned, and the betrayal of the man of the beast, man, is it a
matter of those that are wondering whether it's women who are under
your care, or children heart and the okay, because you're given a
position of authority, and we're going to be questioned about on
the piano. And the person that's gonna become, you know, the
closest person to you is the easiest person is for you to
violate and to oppress, that's just irrelevant the situation
because you give them so much. Right. So that's, I think, you
know, a takeaway with regards to focusing on the ones that are
potentially perpetrators without being suspicious of them being a
perpetrator, I can see what I mean. So I have a question. Is it
haram to cut ties with somebody who has abused your child?
No, I mean, when you want to establish, and it's known that
that's something that's happened, and you have to cut ties in a way,
because you're trying to, you know, is your child you're, you're
in a situation where you have to show that you're supporting them.
And that the in many ways means cutting ties to a point, for
example, you know, but again, I think in this point, it comes back
to the I think, what Sister Camilla was speaking about,
looking at how you're best able to support the child in that time. At
that moment, for example, especially, you know, it's
different scenario. So for example, the child has come and
told you, as an adult, or as a teenager, that this happened at
that time, is different to for example, and it's happened at the
time, and there's going to be issues of, for example,
safeguarding and stuff like that. You get what I mean. So it again,
it's it's hard to give a kind of an answer, or kind of like one
each case, has its, it has an answer, basically, I wouldn't say
yes, cut ties, and everyone cuts ties, I would say no, don't cut
ties when, you know, and then it's open. It's a case by case basis.
So in this type of situation, you you'd go to, for example, some of
this elderly, respected, knowledgeable, and that you'll
take it on that basically nothing, it's not going to be the same for
everybody. But as a general principle, and obviously you're
not going to put them in a position where they could be
harmed. Again, that goes without saying, yeah, sorry. I think that
the reason why I said that is because we find a lot of those of
us who are like coaches who work in therapy, etc. We are familiar
with a lot of I'm going to talk about women because our clients
are women in the main but women who maintain harmful
relationships, toxic relationships, violent and
dangerous relationships, because they're afraid that if they cut
the ties, Allah will be angry with them. And it's haram. I have no
That's correct. That's incorrect. That's completely incorrect. So
there's I mean, without a doubt, the religion is Islam is to
establish justice and fairness and to remove any type of harm and
injustice. That's the overall objective of all of their karma
there surely Amen Islam so as a principle for the muladhara Bala
there are there's no harm there's no reciprocating pump. So one of
the things that come up in many cases regards to relationships is
for example, you again it people using religion to you know, or a
hadith a minute and to suit their
purpose is that a situation comes up, for example, mints in a in an
abusive relationship or a marriage, which is she's, you
know, it's abusive, she's been manipulated, he's a narcissist or
whatever. And it's actually this situation like that. Okay? Does
she have to stay there? He's gonna say no, if you ask for divorce, he
wants more the fragrance of paradise and all the Hadith that
he's going to use, that doesn't apply in that situation. So the
title of that article divorce for Halloween, which is in an abusive
relationship, and the principles there, removal of harm, you know,
so. So, again, I think, I think that I think somebody mentioned,
it was a symbol of knowledge, I think the importance of educating
our kids about their rights, our daughters about how arts was ample
our sons about their rights and responsibilities that obligations,
stuff like that is really key from a young age. And this was this you
find in the early for example, the Sahaba, the Companions, the youth
of the companions were run the Prophet Muhammad sallahu wa salam,
and they were learning a lot of the companions, the big ones.
It was must, Oh, you were young. Right? And they were learning. So
the thing is that there's this other thing, which we have, which
is societal, is because a child is a child after the age of for
example, 16 because they get an EIN number, they can get a job aid
and they can get married. These are boundaries, which are, you
know, genuinely quite new, there's not based upon anything, anything
apart from what society at the time that we live in, that wasn't
always the case. So if you still remove those kind of lucky you're
still a child. No, let's not let's not say you're still a child.
Let's look at him in the stages of for example, how they can
understand and intellect according to the DSM seven there, for
example, that you split the beds for example, you teach them
started to pray, and these these are the boundaries those years and
ages are mentioned for Hickman for wisdom. Right so if we go back to
the dean and look at the ages and look at the examples, you're gonna
find a lot of solutions to some of these issues, I preventative
solutions before they've happened. And then Inshallah, you know,
I think a key point is was a lot of there are a lot of Takala as
well, as well as taking the means
psychological affair and I know we could probably will have more
conversations on these topics Inshallah, because they are super,
super important to all of us. Mashallah, Sophia,
how can we as parents
help? What should we be doing?
I think, mashallah the brothers and sisters are really mentioned
in terms of knowledge, knowledge is really important, I think I
would add being very alert.
And like the, like the brother said, I think it's finding that
mutual, not being too paranoid, but sort of being alert at the
same time. I guess, for me in terms of protecting a child, maybe
being paranoid is better, because then you're protecting a child,
and once you overcome and check, and sure that that's not so if
you've got a follow your gut instinct, sometimes Subhanallah we
underestimate that natural fitrah that Allah has given us that you
know, that something doesn't sit right there is a change in your
child that you're not familiar with. There is something with this
person that keeps on coming to my house, who's got this relate, you
know, explore all that, because it was the you know, the best thing
is that nothing's happened. Obviously, if there is something
that needs to be explored, do so. Remember, as parents that you have
taken this Amana, which is this child to protect this child, and
it's not just about, you know, you know, giving them education and
feeding them and all those things, but also protecting them and know
that when history, like we said Young people are young now. And
when they look back, they will, I guess, reflect and review what
took place beyond the right side, if that child gave you science and
spoke to you, and asked for your help, and you didn't give it to
him, because you saw other factors being more important that you saw
it complex when it wasn't complex. And it takes courage for those
young kids to show you sides to communicate with you directly or
indirectly. Be brave yourself. Because obviously, then you negate
your child from being traumatized from being damaged from having
relationship problems, not academically achieving, these are
all factors that, that it's not just you know, being sexualized,
but actually, this child as a whole will not flourish to their
best ability because this overshadows them. So be on the
right side of, of history, in terms of supporting your child.
What I will say to you as parents as well, and majority of the
parents that we work with are single parents, single mothers
specifically, you are in a dire a difficult situation sometimes
where you are forced to leave your children with with people because
I guess you have to go work because they have to pick up your
child. And so be very mindful that you balance what's more important
your child's well being and knowing now that we're talking to
you that we're saying to you that actually the people that you
trust, obviously the people that are Children's Trust, are the ones
who are more likely to abuse your child. So be mindful who you set
your children to. I will even take it to the next level and say
actually, we send our children to Mother offices. We send a brothers
come or sisters come and teach our children
not home, that we send them to tuitions, places of, I guess,
that's open to the public that we trust as a community. Please be
mindful of where you send your children. And I would urge
brothers and sisters who, who run institutions of tuition or dresses
or whatever, to make sure that you follow and that you Ofsted
register you register with regulators, because none of us are
perfect because when you register with for example, Ofsted or when
we have a nursery that's Ofsted with child Ofsted registered,
there are processes, there are trainings for people to go on,
there are systems and things that you don't think about your heart
might be in the right place that you want this young person to
teach airport in the Quran, and maybe you know where you sit, but
you need to make sure the team around your child have those
systems in place, that you need to make sure that other kids that
attend that madressa also might come from families where they've
been abused and therefore exposed to abuse. So please, as a
community, we need to also ensure that when we send our child to
somewhere, that we make sure this place follows or this institution
follows the best practices that's available in the country that we
live in. And that we just don't think oh, there, we don't need to
register Ofsted or we don't need to go and charge crane, and child
protection training and so on. We don't need DBS because you know, I
know this child, I know this person, they grew up in the
community that we do things properly, because we need to
protect that young child that then will look back in in terms of
what's happened to them. And know that either you supported them, or
you did not. So please make sure that you protect your children.
We're saying often sort of DBS won't everything will protect your
child. But we do as best as we can to implement everything in our
measures and in our powers that we protect our child, that sometimes
it will remember that our child is more important than the work or
some of the costs that we have to in finding that balance in terms
of our child communicate with our child being alert is the key
thing. I would say the cannula and Cisco should massage it and you
know, my dresses etc? Should there be a rule that all Quran teachers,
Islamic Studies, teachers, anybody working with children should be
fully checked? Absolutely. I think as a community now that we've
heard, what the challenges and dilemmas are, that actually that
like the brothers and sisters have stated, the places that we trust,
the most that our children trust, most, are places that our children
can get damaged and harmed from psychologically, physically,
sexually, emotionally. So we need to make sure that we need to be
transparent. And what does that mean having external people coming
in making sure some of the criteria they make sure is that
you've had child protection training, that you have systems
and processes in place, that you've had your DBS check that you
can have on the spot checks, that's really important that
parents aren't interviewed by external members when they come
and do the checks. These are things that will make us as a
community be transparent. I'm not saying it's 100% The only way that
we can protect our kids, but 110% We have to do what we can within
our means and the systems that available schools have these
measures in place. I'm not saying it's 100% safer for children. But
unfortunately, some schools and majority of schools are safe
sometimes then I'm addresses which is a horrible thing to say. But
only because I think that sometimes we trust ourselves,
which is a handy low good, but we don't know the environment. We
don't know the people. So we need to make sure that we follow
everything to the to the letter. And I asked them addresses
intuitions if they say no, they don't want to be registered. What
are you hiding? Transparency? Absolutely. And so I'm thinking
just for everybody who's on here listening, and we're seeing a lot
of Yes, and agreements in the comments. And that's one thing
that you as a parent who are listening to this, who is hearing
all this information, that's one thing you can do today, if your
children are going to an address or if they're going to a Saturday
school, anything, you can ask them, Are you guys checked? What
are the checks if they say no, then insist that they get it done
for everyone who's having any kind of, you know, communication with
your child who spends any time unsupervised with your child,
these are things that we can demand. As parents, especially
most of us are paying fees, we can demand that and inshallah we can
eventually make it a norm within this generation, that this is the
standard that we have that there is safeguarding in place, and I
really believe very, very strongly that enough parents will become
wise to this enough parents start demanding this, it will change
Inshallah, brother Musa, any parting words for parents, maybe
if especially with regards to teens who are suffering right now,
or any message that you have really for anybody who's watching
this
process in terms of in terms of how we're going to how we planning
to do
Sorry, brother, do you want to video off because it's interfering
with the sound so we can't hear you? It's
It's like breaking up, maybe?
Yeah. Okay. So it's like, I think is very important that we
clear in
terms of how we're going to move forward and the victims and how
we're going to deal with the perpetrators, I feel like is an of
theoretical and practical. Also, when it comes to this, in terms of
the theory of how we should deal with things, and the practicality
of how we're living, the environments that we're in, you
know, the parents are working to the single parents, you know,
having to leave their kids here and there. And also understanding
that as a community, we can only speak from the aspects of the
Muslim community, what we can do to kind of bring this to the
forefront. And as long as I've been a Muslim for for the last 13
years, I've never heard anyone on a member talk about, you know,
sexual abuse to young children, or, you know, within the
community, I've heard them talk about, you know, stealing,
backbiting, robbing every type of sin. But these are things we're
yet to hear about on I feel like the member is one of the is one of
the, you know, spaces of power of sending a message, a clear message
to the community, about the do's and don'ts of our community. And
in turn, we expect and don't expect to find that on every find
that on every Friday, you know, we have over 2000 3000 people
attending the Friday sermon, and we're here to believe that there
is no abusers without it. So we have to understand that we have to
send clear messages, even if they just wanted to attend, they have
to know and understand that as a community that we're we're on to
them, they're prepared to, you know, to call them out, and we're
prepared to make sure that they they face the full force of the
law of the land that we're in. I feel like examples speaking from
my experience, and dealing with sisters who've told me about, you
know, being raped or abused. One of the things that I always ask
them is, Have you called the police? And and you know, and in
that, and the incidences I've had to deal with has always been No, I
didn't know the Nationals Islamically correct for me to call
the police, or should I have caught like, you know, and I'm
thinking that what how are we are in in the stage where, you know,
somebody can be raped in their own home, and still feel like calling
the police is a bad idea. You know, so I feel like we just have
to be very clear, in terms of how we want to deal with the
perpetrators, the victims, and how we want to deal with the victims
in terms of the support and supporting them and letting them
know that it's not their problem. There's too many victims, that in
our community, we still have too much of a victim, blame culture,
and we keep on you know, you know, making it easy for perpetrators to
get away. And it's not that it's for everyone to speak on, or every
man but I feel like those who do
have an understanding of that, that platform, I think it's very
important that we call, you know, we call out the perpetrators we
call a spade a spade, and we speak vocally and make a difference,
right? Because these discussions are excellent. But the reality is,
these things are continuing to happen in our communities, to our
sons and daughters. And I feel like it's a time that we take a
strong stance moving forward.
Totally agree. 100%. And I think, you know, my, my thinking with,
you know, discussions like these is that, you know, we've got,
we've had about 80 people on this call, there will be many hundreds
more, who will watch it, you know, potentially 1000s, who are
watching on YouTube. And if every person who attends a session like
this, all of you when you're done here, tweet about it, put
something on your Instagram Stories, take a picture of the
screen, tell people what you learned, tell people what you've
decided, tell them what you took away from this because it is
something that can be changed family, by family, community by
community. So at this stage, I would just like to say that out of
this conversation, I feel that one of the things that we as parents
need to learn it's not a mother's thing. It's a parent's thing. How
can we avoid raising perpetrators?
That is a conversation for another day in sha Allah. So I'd like to
just take this opportunity to thank my amazing panelists Sofia,
Rosaline, Musa, Abdul Wahid, Camilla, and Sharia you guys have
been amazing have brought so much amazing content experience. You're
blowing everyone's minds I'm sure. So I just asked Allah subhanaw
taala texts to really accept your work. I accept your efforts and
allow you to be a source of care and to be part of the change that
you want to see in this
Well, and may Allah bless all your families, those of you who are
watching live please do put in the comments, your takeaways, share
this recording, let other people know about it and make sure you
sign up to join us next week. We're going to wrap up here in sha
Allah for this portion was Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh
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