Naima B. Robert – Secrets of Successful Wives Conference Dealing Infertility Farah Dualeh
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Emma, thank you for having me.
Alright. So hi as well. Like I said,
I'm 5 Raleigh, and I do work with
women on, you know, meeting many goals and
as a coach, and I also have a
day job. But a big part of my
life, at the minute and for a few
years now
is,
talking about
and trying to bring some
clarity, some support
around infertility for Muslim women. And actually I
will say that one of the things that
I've done so I do that in different
ways. I've done little bits about it on
social media.
I do workshops like this on talks and
trying to create that awareness that I talked
about. But I did actually with the help
of Naima actually as, one of my coaches
and as my coach.
In 2020 during lockdown, I did actually write
a book on this topic
and that book has
been picked up by a publisher and will
be released
to you and everyone else in the in
20 well, we are in 2022 now. Right?
It's the first day. So it'll be out
in June, and it's called taking control,
a Muslim woman's guide to surviving infertility.
It's I hope it's a really
important resource out there for so many sisters.
I know it's something that I've needed over
the years, and I think it may be
something that can help you in your journey
if you are a Muslim woman
and a Muslim couple struggling with trying to
start a family,
trying to grow as a couple,
and, you know, and their family.
And many some of the things that I
will talk about today
are in that book and are covered a
lot more,
extensively
in that book.
And it covers all of the different sections.
You know? We know the social pressures around
this issue. We know the confusion around treatment
options. We know the mental and emotional health
and toll that it can take. We
know all of the different dimensions,
but one of those
areas
that infertility
can affect in a big, big way is
your marriage.
And so for today's topic, and, you know,
out of respect to this conference and staying
on topic with this conference,
we will be focusing on marriage. How your
marriage
how you can navigate and thrive and grow
in your marriage
whilst and despite trying to conceive and struggling
with infertility.
And when I just I will clarify that
when I'm saying, you know,
you struggling with infertility and your experiences in
fertility,
I am talking as a couple.
So right now, I may be talking to
you,
you know, a female potentially,
but, you know, this is not an assumption
that the
medical issue or the infertility
problem
lies with you. It's the couple as a
couple what you experienced, but I will be
directing a lot of the information to you
as the female in that partnership.
And so
one of the key questions that was asked
in this conference
is,
does marriage have to be so hard?
I would say
when you
mix
infertility
and fertility issues and huge delays in
having and creating that family that you desire
so much,
then yes.
Most certainly,
a marriage
can become
super
duper difficult
to maintain
and to grow in.
But
can we still
enjoy our marriages?
Can we still
thrive
and have a feeling and happy and joyous
marriages
whilst on this journey?
I would say most certainly,
yes.
Like anything that is important and like anything
that is,
matters,
it's with work. It's with work. I'm sure
for couples who have easily had a baby,
their marriages are still there's it's just a
lot of work, hence why we need a
conference like this.
But
if you
choose, you know, with the right intention,
the right decision making, choosing that your marriage
matters, choosing that this is possible, and being
open
to
having maybe a slightly different marriage than what
you had envisioned, and I'll explain that a
bit more later,
then
absolutely you can have a really fulfilling and
happy marriage.
So I wanna ask you quickly, if you
don't mind, and I hope you'll be, you
know, you'll indulge me and you'll put some
questions in the comments is
what is
the one
thing
that you
struggle with the most in your marriage
when it comes to infertility?
So what's the one area
that you feel like, oh my god.
This fertility issue, this infertility issue has made
our marriage so much more harder, or I'm
I'm struggling to kind of go through it
or have really hard days
with.
What is that? Is it the financial aspect
of it?
Is it the the difficulty com difficult conversations?
Is it the family pressures that then affect
the marriage?
Is it intimacy issues?
Is it
what is it? What is the one thing
for you? Please put something in the comments
and let me know just some of the
things that you're,
you know, that you might be struggling with.
If you are here, but you are not
experiencing infertility,
there may be, you know, you I'm sure
you know someone. You know family members, couples,
brothers, sisters, whoever,
who are going through it. So, oh, that's
big one, who are going through it. So
maybe you come for and what you might
think might be something that is a couple
struggles
with, if you are not in that situation.
Someone said feeling in inadequate.
That's really, really, really big.
So that's around how you feel about yourself,
and I will we'll touch upon that later.
What else? Who else feels something specific that
they really struggle with in their marriage?
Even if you don't get a chance now
to comment it's okay.
Think about it, and maybe later on,
you we can come back to it as
a question or a comment because we will
have, you know, q and a at the
end. The last 10 to 15 minutes will
be, you know, it's boring me just talking.
So we will have that chance for you
to ask questions,
and comment. So even if you haven't thought
of anything now, please do think about what
is that one thing that I'm struggling with?
What is that thing that I would wanna,
you know, ask a question on or share
information on?
And so with me delivering this,
talk, this workshop, this session today, I wanna
clarify that I'm not a marriage expert by
any stretch of the imagination.
I actually often
worry about talking about this topic,
for multiple reasons.
So anything that I
discuss
in terms of what I think can make
a marriage work and last,
is my own experience so far. It's what
has worked for us
and what the what I found through other
talking to other women who are going through
this.
So
please do share what what has worked for
you as well. Later on, when we come
to the comments and, questions, please ask questions,
but also share share because I'm not an
expert. We are sharing information, and really the
the the the key reason why we're having
this conversation is not to act like, you
know, I'm a professor and I'm lecturing something.
No. It's for us to share information. There'll
be something that I can take away. There'll
be something that you can take away. There
will be something that other people who have
not experienced this at all can maybe find
out, see, or have a different perspective on.
And so please do that. Share that with
us. So let me just share with a
couple of comments. So
someone else said, yep. Unworthy
of receiving endless favors.
So you feel like this massive thing, this
thing that we see as a huge blessing
has been either delayed or, you know, you
feel like you've missed out on or you're
not getting, and therefore, you feel like maybe
there's an unworthiness to receiving others' favors. That's
a really big one. Someone else said, I
chose to wait, and people assumed there was
something wrong with me. They started lecturing me
to go to the doctors. Yeah. My fertility
was fine, but my god, people were brutal
when they assumed I was infertile.
Yeah.
I know I know that too well, and
I know anybody who chooses to delay,
having a child or is unable to have
a child when they want. Yes, the go
to the doctor. But but and that's a
sensible recommendation because you get all sorts of
recommendations
that are
not the most effective and also just really
wild and just inappropriate. So, yeah, people will
give you a lot of advice and just
assume and all of this stuff. Right?
So, yeah, so like I said, this is
my experience. This is what I feel like
has helped us. So
I got my I was I'm
I I got married,
almost 13 years ago,
and I was 24 at the time.
And, obviously, I got married, and then I
was like, okay. I don't wanna get married.
I don't wanna have a baby the 1st
year. I wanna wait for a year, enjoy
my marriage, and all of that. And then
within a year, you know, decide to try
for a baby. And I remember, thank goodness,
which is ludicrous looking back. I remember saying
to myself, yeah. So, yeah, years from now,
you know, we'll try. And then, you know,
by month 2 of trying, I'll be pregnant.
Month 1, 2, I'll be pregnant. This time,
I can announce it. This time, I can
go maternity, and I started planning in that
way. Right? Please say me too if you've
gone through that phase. Even if you don't
have any to, try to plan your life
like that. I mean, it's like, no. Babies
come when they want. They don't come. They
get delayed.
Yeah. It just becomes a hot mess. Right?
So
that's what happened to me. And so very
quickly,
I was dealt with, and I think this
has been talked about quite a bit already,
and I'm sure it will be talked about
throughout the conference because it's not just infertility.
It's marriage and many other
things. So I was met with this thing
of my expectation
versus my reality.
And
it took a minute
for me to deal with
what was
and what was happening
as opposed to what I thought should be
happening. It took a minute,
and there was confusion around it.
And
I had to then start being very intentional
with how I was going to
get through this.
And with the marriage stuff, which I will
talk about, I think, thankfully, the 1st few
years,
a lot of the coping mechanisms, a lot
of the things that worked for us
happened organically by the grace of God. But
but I think some of the other things
that we did and some of the things
that I did to be intentional about how
I approached
this test, essentially, that's what it is. This
test
helped and shaped
me to create
and to live a life that was still
really healthy, really happy, and fulfilling
whilst trying to go through this.
And so
there needs to be so if you're a
sister in this situation, maybe you're in the
first couple years of trying to conceive, and
it's just not happening, and it just feels
like,
There has to be a level of acceptance,
and it's not an acceptance like, oh, Okay.
That didn't work out. Not that kind of
acceptance, but just an acceptance of what is
happening, what is the reality.
And so when we
accept
what is happening,
then we can have choices.
We can make better informed decisions
as opposed to clinging on and being angry
and feeling, you know, all of these other
emotions are not helpful to us because something
that we wanted
didn't happen.
And so when I was going through that,
one of the key things
that helped was and I love the fact
that the first
comment when I asked the question was feeling
inadequate. I like, and I'm so grateful that
that was the first comment that came up.
Because in talking about marriage today,
there will be
a few things that I think is really
important for us to understand and to understand
the connection in, but to also start taking
apart. And one of them is the self
and it's your self worth and it's understanding
who you are and those things.
And so the 3 there are 3 things
that I again, in the book, I discussed
this a lot more, and there's diagrams and
all those kind of things.
Three things that I think
for a married Muslim woman going through infertility
as a couple, there are 3 things that
you need to recognize
and start to separate.
And they are the self,
the marriage,
trying to conceive.
Those three things
can become muddled
extremely
quickly.
And so there is really genuinely a need
to separate that as soon as possible.
So trying to conceive, we're gonna put that
in a box, and we're gonna just leave
it there for now because we're not digging
deep into all the stuff related
to trying to get through this and trying
to have a baby and all of that
come to terms with that. So we're gonna
lose that in a block, so the other
2, the self and the marriage.
So let's start with the self. This is
what I had to do, and this is
something that can really help you
have a thriving and successful marriage.
And that is
that
a really deeply rooted self love is nonnegotiable.
And I get that self love, self acceptance,
all those things are talked about a lot.
And I and I think we all have
different understandings of what that means as well.
Right? So you need to really
gauge what what your understanding of it is.
But, nevertheless,
a real,
you know, a real,
nurturing, loving,
self acceptance for yourself
will do so much because
Multiple reasons.
So the first of these things, right, we're
linking it to the marriage,
is,
okay. I don't mean to play down this
issue. Okay?
I know how painful this is. I've been
in this for, you know, married almost 13
years, you know, trying to conceive for almost
12 years. I've been in this for a
long time, and I know the pain that
comes with it.
But at the same time,
nobody really likes to be around a Debbie
Downer.
And so what can happen very quickly is
we can go into this you know why
me, we we can fall into victimhood really
quickly, we can start self loathing,
we can feel like God you know forgot
about us, we can still start to hit
our bodies,
but be honest please in the comments it
could be for anything at work who enjoys,
you know, not me if that's you, who
really enjoys and looks forward to all the
time with somebody that's just complaining,
somebody that's just having such a pessimistic way
of life, somebody that is constantly feeling down.
I am not talking about people who are,
you know, you know, clinically and medically depressed,
and I am not talking about having a
hard time and moment.
So my husband and I, for example, we
just had another failed IVF
just last month in November, and it was
a brutal, brutal, brutal cycle.
And it hurt us, you know, really, really,
really badly. And so we had about 7
days where we
were really really feeling like we were broken.
And so we had down days, we had,
you know,
mentally, emotionally, physically,
the opposite to attractive. Right?
And that's okay.
Like, we just went through a huge trauma.
We just went through, you know, a huge
cycle where you have all these hopes, and
then your hopes are dashed, and you're left
with this horrible reality yet again.
And that's okay. You're allowed to grieve. You're
allowed to feel sad. You're allowed to have
your moments.
But what you can't do is let it
change your character.
So if your husband married a, you know,
bubbly, vibrant,
you know, you know, life of the soul
kind of woman,
and then, you know, 3, 4, 5, 10
years down the line of trying to conceive,
you've become a shell of your old self.
And everything's doom and gloom, and everything is
sad, and everything's heavy, and everything's ugly,
then
why would that marriage be able to survive?
How could it thrive?
How could you stay attracted to each other?
How could you make each other happy?
So that's why I said a deep
self love has to be there.
It has to. You have to know your
self worth. You have to love yourself. You
have to know that not being a mom
yet has not taken anything away from you
in terms of who you are. It's something
that you wanted that you don't yet have.
It's not
having a baby
is not is not
I am
like Farah
exists with or without a baby. Farah is
enough,
worth it with or without a baby. Right?
It's just something that we want, something that
enhances life, something that's a blessing, something that
god
himself, you know, mentioned as one of the
treasures of this world, one of the blessings
of this world. Right?
So
I get it, but it can't it can't
then make me ugly. It can't take away
the happy disposition that god gave me. It
can't
it can't
I can't allow it to overwhelm me and
take everything else away from my life. It
it just can't. Right? And it definitely should
not destroy my marriage. Okay? And the same
goes for you.
So I would encourage you I would encourage
you. It's funny, Naomi said, oh, do you
have a PowerPoint presentation? I actually had one,
and I actually
put it away. The information is still here,
but I didn't have the PowerPoint because I
really want
I know I can't see you, but I
want us to connect. And I want you
to hopefully really see
the message and hear the message more clearly
without, you know, problem and all that behind
you. So I really want to connect
with you and really try and get the
message across
that
it's your choice sis, it's your choice to
start loving yourself, it's your choice to love
your body, it's your choice to love your
marriage, You can do all of that, but
if you think I'm this and I'm that,
I'm,
especially if you are deemed or it's understood
that you might be the one that's
unable to conceive easily,
that, you know, the fertility issues may, like,
you know, might lie with you, then, of
course, it it comes worse. There are facts.
Right? There are facts.
If I am diagnosed
with being, with you know, with being with
having some sort of fertility medical issue. That's
a fact. So if my husband can't become
a father today
because
I'm unable to conceive, yes. That's the fact,
but is it my fault?
No.
Should I be blamed for it?
No. It's his test
as as well as it being my test.
It's a test of the spouse that god
married
you know, god might have given me the
medical test with this. Right? But he chose
this spouse. Of all the people in the
world that he could have give your spouse,
he gave them to somebody that would struggle
to conceive. So it's just as much their
test. It's just as much test. Well, basically,
it's a test for both spouses. That's what
I'm trying to say. Regardless of who's considered
to be the issue.
Let me just see.
Yeah. I'll come back to some of the
comments later on.
Thank you for your comments. Please keep them
going. Any questions, keep them coming, and we'll
come back to them.
So the first of those things that I
said has to stand alone and will help
your marriage is this idea of you, how
you see yourself, and the self acceptance and
love that you give yourself. Now if god
made it easy for you, if it's easy
for you to have self love and self
worth and self respect,
That is a gift from Allah.
That is amazing.
Okay?
If you struggle with it and you are
starting to go down and you have gone
down the route of berating yourself, of seeing
yourself as less than, of comparing yourself to
other women, If you've gone down that route,
then you can cultivate and build self love.
And
I I would love to see what what,
you know, what what you guys think. Please
share in the comments your your opinion, but
I really do think that there's a need
to build evidence as well. I know people
think it's got to be unconditional love. You've
got to sell you know, love yourself no
matter what and all of that stuff. But
sometimes that's not realistic for every single person.
So what you need to do, if this
is works for you and what has worked
for me
is
I've never allowed
this to kind of affect myself, my identity
or self worth. But what I have done
over the years to build on it and
to strengthen it and to really build to
to
to to nurture those foundations of self love
and self respect and self care and understanding
and all those things
is I build evidence.
So don't be afraid to tell yourself why
you love yourself,
why you're amazing,
why your husband is blessed to have you.
So things like your character, your integrity, your
relationship with God, don't have to be the
most ideal Muslim, but your intention and your
efforts and the fact that you're trying to
do the one thing that God told you
to do, which is to know him and
to worship him. Right? That's why he was
created. So your efforts in trying to do
that should make you say
and really cultivate that love and respect for
yourself.
Same with the way you treat people, the
way you see the world, the way you
interact, your generosity,
whatever is for you.
Build
that
internal
self love and self respect.
And please don't go down this route of
making yourself
uglier
and, like, ugly in your eyes, I mean,
and in your marriage because you've
allowed this to take everything away from you.
So that's number 1.
Now if we move over to the marriage
then
there are
many things that will come up throughout your
journey of trying to conceive.
And some of the things
that I'll mention some of the things that
are, you know, nonnegotiable
in a way to really
have a successful marriage
in spite of infertility.
And the first of those things, I'm sure
people know what it is, but I'm gonna
say, and it's communication.
And communication in any relationship, we know, is
like the core, right,
or one of
the key things.
And in most marriages, again, it doesn't matter
how many kids you have. If that communication
is not there, there's gonna be issues.
I would say in particular in a situation
like this
where some of the communication that needs to
happen is even more tricky,
it's vital.
Your marriage,
especially with fertility infertility in the mix,
cannot
survive
if you don't communicate
effectively.
And so
how can you start to improve your communication
as a couple?
And
and for you as the woman, what can
you do? Because that's the most important thing
we can do for ourselves right now is
talk from what we can do today. And
so some of the things that can work
is
having the conversations that you need to have
at the right time. So one of the
things that I know works for us and
might work for you is try and have
some
of those conversations, some of the hard hitting
conversations,
maybe after prayer. So for example, if you've
prayed together
and you're, you know, after the salah, you
sat down in the prayer mats,
that can be a really good opportunity sometimes
to get some conversation going. Because
your calmness,
I think your rationality,
your your your spirituality,
everything
is
centered a lot more than maybe when we're
just running around.
So that's a really good time
to have those kind of conversations,
if that works for you. It's worked for
us and it really does
make everything feel safer.
I think just being on a prayer mat,
just having faith together, that kind of thing.
It really does make us feel safer to
have
some big conversations.
So please have those conversations
in in in in at the right time.
The another way that you can improve and
build on this communication
is using things like journals.
So something that's worked for me over the
years
is
if I know that
we need to have a really big conversation,
I don't know where to start it,
he ain't starting it, and it's it's just
becoming a slightly stalemate,
Then
what I've done in the past and what
has worked for me is that I journal
my thoughts, my fears, my worries, my concerns,
my ideas, my plans, everything in a journal
without judgment, without censorship. I just put everything
as it is.
And then I will leave it for a
while, maybe a few days, maybe a week,
I will leave it.
I will come back to it, I will
read it, and I will see if what
I felt that day
is still the same,
if those
points that I've put in there still need
to be discussed.
And then what I have started to do
sometimes
is that I will actually get him to
read the journal.
I I do that so that I
don't need to worry about how I'm wording
things, that I don't say something that I
didn't mean in the moment,
that, you know, it doesn't come out the
wrong way, that it's honest,
but that it's that I've also checked it
as well. And so what happens in that
moment is he's able to also just read
it digest
it
and then what we do is
if he, because remember I've had days to
think about this and I've written it down,
If he feels
like
he can talk about it in that moment,
then we'll talk about it in that moment.
Quite often, what will happen is he will
read it and he will say okay let
me get back to you so then he
will now
digest what he's read
and then maybe a next day or something,
we sit down and we will talk about
some of the things, some of the worries
and everything that came up for me.
That's
how I've been able to manage it. That's
in a way that has made some of
the really
sore things
come, you know, come come to light.
So that's something. So
communication,
like I said, you
a marriage, especially marriage like this cannot survive
without effective communication. And so some of the
ways to communicate more effectively
is could be after prayer
and
journaling, right, or writing a letter to each
other and that sort of thing or making
an appointment to talk about something. All those
things will work, but it has to happen.
And you really need to go below the
service surface.
We can have willy nilly,
you know, those
conversations that don't really change anything or do
anything or really inform the spouse of anything.
It has to be
raw. It has to be honest.
It has to be with love.
And so
one of the things, again, that you want
to do whilst,
what you could do whilst going through this
is
don't
for us, and I pray for you. And
if if it's if if you haven't yet
been able to do that, please do it.
For us, it's never
him, like, him against her. It's not that.
For us, it's us
as a couple
versus
trying to conceive.
So we we are together on this. We're
a team.
And the reason why we operate in that
way is that it makes us feel safe.
Humans want to feel safe.
We don't wanna feel like we're being blamed
for anything. We don't want to, you know,
something that's completely out of our control. I
don't mean, like, a character or a habit
thing because that's the thing. Right? When we're
talking about some of the other marriage conversations
where somebody can change a habit, they can
change this, and they can change that, and
the marriage can, you know, improve. But if
the big thing in our marriage or one
of the biggest things in the marriage is
fertility or infertility,
then I can't do anything about that. It's
not a character flaw that I need to
work on. It's something that's outside of my
control. And so we recognize that, and we
accept that, and then we come together to
say it's us. We feel safe. We don't
blame each other. So now how can we
deal with, you know, this other thing? Right?
We want to do that just so that
you just feel like a team, and it
just
helps nurture the marriage
and the communication
and all those kind of things. Right?
And so,
let me just see where I was on.
Yes. I was saying to have those honest
conversations because they're the ones that will really
make a difference in your marriage.
Huge difference in your marriage. I know. I
meet couples and I meet sisters
who have been trying to conceive
for 2, 3, 6, 10 years or more
sometimes,
and nothing's been done.
No real discussions have happened.
No efforts have been made to rectify the
situation through
medical
intervention and so forth.
It's more of we'll make the animal very
headless hand.
And
what's happening is that you're going through this
together but alone.
That's a really lonely existence. Like,
we know already that infertility is a very
lonely existence.
We know
as women,
as Muslim women in particular,
married
maybe at a certain age and not having
children, that already alienates us from so much.
We already feel like
we're the book that I talked about, I
was actually I was actually going to call
it surviving in a mom's world. Because sometimes
as a as a as a Muslim woman
trying to conceive, it can feel like
the culture, the community, the environment
has been centered and supported
for mothers.
And so now as a non mother, you
know, somebody of age married and all that,
but non mother,
you already feel like you're on the outskirts.
You already feel like you don't belong to
a certain extent. Right? So now you don't
wanna do that in your marriage. You can't
be traveling
alongside each other, but alone in your thoughts.
And one thing that I want to add,
but I don't want it to become a
burden
is, and this is a bit of generalizing,
please say yes or true in the comments
if you agree with this.
The beauty of women and female relationships is
that we can sometimes be
therapists to each other.
We all know when we go meet a
friend and we're in that coffee shop or
that restaurant or whatever it is, go for
that walk, we have those really deep conversations
where we tell each other a lot, and
we share, and we come back feeling
lighter,
and we feel supported, and we feel loved.
Right? Yes, I'm seeing yes, yes, yes. Right?
For men,
I don't think that's the case.
For men,
generally speaking,
especially black men, I'm married to a black
man, and
for the majority
of men
accessing
counseling,
therapy, things like that can take maybe a
bit longer than maybe for a woman. Right?
That's already one thing.
But the male
relationship
is completely
different to us.
So I would argue that they usually have
a lot less of an outlet, someone to
talk to, someone to share their worries with,
somebody to get ideas from, somebody to to
share this with.
And so what happens is if you as
a couple are not sharing this,
there is this risk
that he is really alone. You're alone,
but he's really alone, and he's just in
his head.
And that then can amplify things like depression,
things like wanting to give up on the
marriage. All those things can amplify because it's
just
feeling so alone and especially this, you know,
if he's considered to have a medical issue
because of the, you know,
because of what that, you know, does to
him psychologically mentally and all that. So
talking to each other, being there for each
other, supporting each other, making feel each other
feel safe
is
paramount.
So communication is one of them. The second
one that I would say is friendship.
So can a marriage be successful? Can it
survive? How do we navigate it when there's
infertility issues?
Well enjoy the marriage,
enjoy it
because the marriage is a blessing
on its own. I understand
that we have
the idea that we get married and we've
gotten married to have children. I get it.
I I get that.
But
the marriage on its own, just that is
or could be one of the most
blessed things
that can happen to you in your lifetime.
And so
why not
enjoy it and make it fun? And so
I said friendship. Having that friendship where you
just
genuinely will look after each other, you genuinely
wanna have fun, you do things together, you
go out, you, you know, you you create
a life of memory and experiences
and joy. You know how, like, you like
seeing your best friend. You enjoy seeing your
best friend. You have so many memories with
your best friend. Right? Like female best friend
for example.
Do
the same
in your marriage and together,
right,
because
going back to before where I was talking
about the self and being depressed and how,
you know, not depressed but right down, how
that can
create an ugliness that sometimes it doesn't need
to be there, and the attractiveness and the
light that you went that you were together
in the first place can kind of disappear.
In the same way, if you don't have
that friendship
and
you don't root for each other and you
don't share amazing experiences,
then again, this journey, the marriage can feel
like, well, what's the point? What's the point?
Because what happens is,
like now, we just had
a a round that I said IVs IVF
cycle, and
god knows
it was it cost a pretty penny. Let's
just say that. It cost a pretty penny.
Okay? And so the thing is if we
didn't feel like this marriage was worth it,
then it would be like, why are we
spending all this money on trying to do
this? Why are we spending all these years
trying to do this? Why why are we
doing this? It would just feel
too hard.
It's already hard enough. But when you have
when you feel like you have something to
fight for, you have something that balances out
this hardship.
And so please
build
and nurture and honor your marriage
and know that by itself
is a blessing and one of the greatest
gifts that you can have even without a
child right? I'm just talking right now without
a child.
So, that friendship is
everything.
I understand we have about 15 minutes so
I'm gonna try and round it up so
that we have time for questions and answers.
One of the last things or one of
the key last things I wanted to mention
was, if we talk about marriage and infertility,
one of the other key things is intimacy.
Is
trying to move away from only
associating
intimacy and intimacy,
like sexual *, not just, you know, general,
but, like, the act itself.
If you
associate that with only
trying to have a baby,
ovulation days.
You're on this journey. You know the little
sticks and the ovulation days followed by the
pregnancy test and then all that good stuff.
Right?
I think you need to reclaim this part
of your life. You need to reclaim back
this part of your marriage
because,
yes,
I understand
*
brings children. I get it,
But it doesn't need to be
the only thing and the only reason. It's
not giving reason.
So we need to
get that back and start bringing, you know,
just joy into that. And so how can
we do that? Well, 1, just decide that
it's important. It's an important part of your
life. It's an important part of your marriage.
It's something we know psychologists and relationship experts
and everything like that of any faith and
any background
will talk about that if
there's issues around this this topic and this
part of the marriage, then sometimes a lot
of difficult difficulties can arise from that.
And because of the nature of this test,
sometimes
the 2 can be linked. Right? Because what
happens is ovulation date,
then all of a sudden the the the
act itself comes associated with pressure,
crazy pressure,
failure,
and just anxiety.
It's just not fun.
And so you need I would say, please
start enjoying this with nothing to do with
the revelation days. Make like, make it fun.
Get back into it.
Decide that it it's something worth
enjoying and nurturing without it being just the
point is to have a baby.
And so, you know,
stop not focusing around relation days and tests
and all those kind of things, but just
claim that back. Please make it fun and
all those kind of things. Right?
And like I said,
this cannot be done alone.
There's so much you can do. So you
can do a lot to heal yourself. You
can you can do a lot of work
on yourself. You can do the therapy.
You can do, the coaching.
You can read the books. You can do
the praying. You can do all of that
and I've done all of that and I
recommend all of that.
But if you're just doing that alone and
one of you's gone on some growth journey
with this and having
moments and breakthroughs,
but you're not doing it as a couple,
then it doesn't work.
And so for you
to
survive in this marriage and to be really
happy and fulfilling,
Those three things that I mentioned really need
to be nurtured.
And in particular,
what you need to do is or what
you can do is really start to think
about how your marriage can look
different,
how it can look different, what kind of
options
are available?
So, of course, yes, we we we wanna
try and have biologic children. We will, you
know, you try and keep going,
but think about options. So and and what
I what I mean is not even think
about other options. I'm not recommending any other
options. What I'm saying is have the conversation
as a couple of what is possible.
What is possible? And sometimes you could even
do it in small stages. I know we've
done that for we need to talk about
something big.
So instead of sitting down and crying about
it for 2 hours, what we will do
is we will talk about it. My number
is just driving and we'll talk about it.
And what happens is next week we'll talk
about it a bit more and just talk
about it more, and then we sit down
and talk about what what what's the final
decision? What what's going on with this? Well,
I'm like, what are our options around this?
And so some of the options and again,
I I talk about this again extensively in
the book with all the Islamic rulings and
everything.
But it's around ideas of polygyny,
if that's, you know, that's not me saying
go for that. That's the only answer, and
I do really discuss that in the book.
But is that a potential
option for some Muslim couples?
Separating,
is that a potential option?
I think and
and some people sent some questions through Instagram.
So in a minute, when we're doing the
q and a, I will actually look at
some of those questions if I get a
minute. And one of them was, when should
a couple
separate due to infertility?
And I would say it's when you feel
like
it's a deal breaker for you. It doesn't
have to be a deal breaker. A couple
can continue and thrive and have a loving
marriage without biological children. But if and when
one or both couple decide that it's a
deal breaker,
and they have tried
everything in their power. They've explored every other
option,
and then they feel, yes, it's still the
best option for us, then.
Right? It's an option there for a reason.
Right? So all those things, whether it's adoption,
whether it's polygyny, whether it's separating, whether it's
staying together as a couple, all those things
can only be discussed, and you feel like,
there's light. There's light. You never know. There's
darkness. There's light. I can find
options. We can do something else, but you
have to have a pragmatic
mindset. You have to have a pragmatic approach.
Because if you just stay in the emotions,
if you just stay
in the feelings,
and you are just too scared to take
any action or to communicate or to do
anything
around this,
then you end up staying in a very
dark space for a very, very long time.
But when you start thinking about okay. What
options? What can we do? What would that
mean to us? How can we do this?
And you can do that over years
years. My husband and I have been talking
about options and all those things
for maybe year 2 of trying to conceive.
And what's 12, 13 years later? We talk
about it all the time, or we build
on that, and we see what's right for
us. And so that's something that can only
open up when that friendship,
that closeness, that intimacy,
that communication has been nurtured. And when both
spouses and for the woman in particular has
that strong sense of self and and self
love and self worth so that you can
think rationally and you can think
with a positive mindset of what's possible rather
than what you've lost.
I'm gonna stop there. So, please, what I'm
gonna do is I'm gonna go through some
of the comments and,
questions,
and let me know if you have any
more questions. If you wanna raise your hand,
if you wanna speak. I don't know if
that's possible, Naima. And if somebody if people
can orally, you know, ask a question.
And then, yeah, and then we will be
rounding it up. So, Naimed, was there anything
that you wanted to say or shall I
go ahead and start asking the questions? I
mean, answering the questions in the comments.
That was
such,
such a profound
look at this topic that really is, you
know, pretty much taboo in our communities. You
know? You hardly ever hear people speaking about
it. It's as if people feel like if
you talk about it, you know, it's it's
like a bad sign or, you know, something
like that.
So I can see
that, you know, people have taken a lot
from this. Even over in YouTube, people are
are like, this is what I needed to
hear
right now. And Allahu Akbar, thank you so
much. Please do go through the comments. I
think there are some really good ones here.
And VIPs, please, if you have any questions,
feel free to post them. You know, we
have another 5 minutes or so. So.
Thanks.
Alright. Let's do this.
Okay.
For all your comments.
For your compliments.
Okay. So I'm gonna get try and get
to some and if there's any questions.
There's a lot of comments.
Somebody said, doesn't matter even when you have
the baby. He's like, okay. So when are
you having another one?
So it never stops. We know that.
Someone says, thanks for sharing. I know someone
going through infertility for nearly 15 years. May
Allah make it easier for them. I mean,
I mean, may Allah make it easy for
all of us. And may Allah make it
easier for the extended family as well because
we know it's not easy. It's not easy
for the moms,
the grandparents, the potential aunts and uncles. We
we see the pain as well from them.
So may Allah make it easy for you
all as well. So true. I've got one
here, sis, inshallah. This is a really good
question. I think that maybe is, has even
more of a general relevance. And the sister
asks, how can we support a family member
who is going through infertility, who is navigating
infertility?
How can the family support that person?
I love that. That's an amazing question. Mhmm.
Okay. The first thing is
let them
lead the way.
Let them lead the way because it can
be a blanket statement on how to help
them.
So for example, there are couples and sisters
who are very open, and they want you
to ask how the cycle went. They want
you to check up on them. They want
you to
care about their journey and make and and
remind them that
they are still in your heart, in your
duas, in your, you know, everything, and find
out if they need anything. The same you
would with a family member that's expecting. Right?
So they want to still be remembered. So
some couples want that. Some couples want the
opposite. They don't wanna be reminded. They don't
wanna be asked too many questions. They will
share when they share with who they share.
So I think
if it's your sister, your cousin, if it's
a male, you know, your uncle, or even
your nephew even regardless, basically, someone that's close
to you and dear to you,
don't be afraid.
If you know and have acknowledged, don't assume
they're having infinite infinite issues if they've not
said it. But if you know that they
are,
ask
them, how would you like me to help?
What can I do for you?
What would make this easier for you from
that I can possibly do?
People have done that for me. A friend
in particular has done that for me, and
it's
really important because it allows us
to let you know what we need when
we need it. That's one of them. The
second one is,
I know it's I know I know it's
really difficult and really I also say that
for the couples who are going through it,
we also need to build,
you know, a thicker skin because I know
a lot of things can offend us, and
a lot of things can hurt us without
it meaning to just because
of the type of test that we're in
and how children and births and pregnancies are
just, you know, everywhere. It's life. Right? So
we, the couples and the female struggling in
this, also need
to time regulate our emotions.
But as a family member,
please just be careful, and I I know
it's easier said than done, of some of
the comments that can be triggering or that
can be
insensitive.
That's the second thing that I would say.
And then thirdly is, please, if you can,
support
their decisions.
So you will have your own mindset of
what a family should look like.
You might actually think they should separate now.
You might think, well, how they're adopting? That's
never gonna be their baby. You might think,
why are they wasting all this money on
fertility treatment? They should just be happy and
have a blessed marriage. You might think all
these things. But, please, if they're coming to
you, it's okay to ask questions. It's okay
to be confused. It's okay.
But please know that this is their journey,
this is their test, and it's important for
them to create what makes them happy. So
if they're talking to you that they wanna
consider adoption,
please be open to that and ask questions
in a loving way where they feel supported
and not alone, same with all the other
options that I mentioned.
I hope that was, that answered the question.
Sis, it's like you knew that question was
coming. I mean, that's like It's in the
book, man. It's in the book.
Guys, you know what to do. We will
be sending inshallah sister Farah's,
details via email so that you guys can
follow-up with her inshallah.
I've got another really cool, comment here. Yes.
A sister who moved from Zambia
all the way to Cape Town due to
fertility treatment. The journey took 11 years,
with 3 babies now, 9, 5, and 2a
half, masha'Allah.
So, masha'Allah, I think we've got some other
stories of people who, you know, are still
in that journey. Do you wanna share some
of those? And then I've got a question
for you. Yes. Yes. So somebody said, oh
my god. You're speaking to me, sis. I'm
a mother of 3 again. Might be the
same person, babies with IBS.
Amazing.
IVF is cooling, but when the outcome is
positive, then it's worth it.
Somebody else said
okay. There's also pressure to conceive
and
and to go into, like, second marriages and
things like that, which is harder and riskier
in older couples.
She's saying when there's a second marriage,
if you remarry
not to do with infertility, but if you
remarry,
there's a pressure there. I think that's what
she means. There's pressure there That makes sense.
To to have a baby in that situation
even though you may be older and it's
a bit riskier.
That makes sense. That makes sense. Impact for
loaded mushroom. Okay. Anything else? Well, did you
have another one? Did you say? Yeah. I
have a question.
Oh, yeah. There's another one there. Yep. Mhmm.
My question is,
you mentioned earlier that,
you know, there are different options.
If it doesn't doesn't seem to be happening,
there are different options. One of them that
you mentioned was, polygyny.
And, you know, knowing how sisters in general
feel about polygyny
is there is a sense of it triggering
our insecurities
anyway
in the most just in just normal circumstances.
It is something that triggers many women's insecurities.
So my question would be,
if
a couple decide or they they come to
a point where they realize that this is
probably not going to happen.
And they either discuss or the husband decides
or or puts it out there that I
would like to marry a woman
so that I can have a child.
How can the wife he doesn't want to
divorce her. He loves her. He
values their relationship.
He doesn't want them to lose that, but
he wants a child.
What is your advice to sisters in that
situation for them to not feel, again, what
the sister mentioned, you know, paralyzed by the
sense of inadequacy
and
failure and all of those things that typically,
you know, many sisters face in polygyny anyway.
But in this situation, you know that the
reason he's marrying somebody else is to be
able to have a child which he was
not able to do with you.
And this is tough. This is, you know,
this is this is this is the raw
stuff. Right? And I wonder if there is
any advice that you can give to sisters
who are in that situation
to be able to to get through, to
to thrive in that situation, just to to
stay just keep
there. Keep themselves together.
Amazing, amazing, amazing question.
I do have a response for that.
And what I would say is
I get it. I get it. It's a
very, very, very sensitive
subject, and it's a very sensitive decision for
a couple to come to. I get it.
What a couple in that situation
and a sister in particular in that situation
may have to think about. It's 1st and
foremost, for a couple to come to that
situation, it could only be 2 things. It's
either because remember, there's many reasons why people
don't conceive, and, obviously, a lot of times,
it could be the male problem as well.
And so in our cultures, we quickly think
polygyny is the answer when it's not because
he could go on to marry a 100
women, and he ain't having a baby because,
that's his medical condition. Right?
So we have to assume that he
is either
unexplained.
So he wants to test it out. Maybe
he could have a baby with somebody else.
Maybe.
Or it's flat out as far as medic
you know, Medicare they can they can deduce,
it's the female problem. It's a female issue.
They're not having a baby because she is
unable to conceive.
And so if you're in that situation
where him marrying again would potentially mean the
chance of illogical children,
then what you have to do
with yourself, sister,
is,
1st and foremost and somebody had this conversation
with me years years years ago as well.
And they said, well, 1st and foremost, you
have to actually ask if it's worth it.
So what I mean by that is they
said,
is
do you feel the husband is a good
husband?
Is everything else
or are many other things
good and is just and there's love and
respect and
all those kind of things.
Because they said if there's all these other
issues anyway, and fertility is just just like
a little it's an excuse, essentially, but there's
actually all this dysfunction underneath,
then, yeah, maybe you'd rather just leave that
marriage. Right? Potentially, instead of then having to
deal with this heartbreak. But
if the marriage is good and the friendship
and the respect and all those things that
we discussed
is there insha Allah.
And the only reason that you guys are
having to having to have this discussion now
because of the situation,
I would ask sisters to be open minded.
I can't say, oh, yeah. You should do
that. No. But I think they should be
open minded because and I've I've had a
sister say to me before,
I would have been learned no way would
I do such a thing.
For me, I'd rather be alone and adopt
as a single woman
than be in that situation.
Okay. I get it. I get all the
emotions around that, but you have to think
like I was saying, you have to think
pragmatically. So what I do to survive sometimes,
survive this thing, is I always try and
look ahead. If we're talking about a decision
that that's been really painful today, sometimes I
think, what could this look like in 5,
10, 15 years' time
When all the pain and the newness and
the confusion has gone, what could this look
like? Could we have created an amazing life?
Potentially.
So you have to think if this marriage
is amazing,
could or is there a way? What could
I do, and what could he do, and
what could we do collectively as a family
potentially
to facilitate this and to make this easier
for everyone involved.
I don't think we can,
you know, invalidate
what the system might feel, but but
we have to also remember and and it's
really funny, Naima, actually, because I talk about
in the book, and I was encouraged multiple
times to take it out.
People felt like the that that I may
have been, betraying the sisters, because this book
is a you know, it's for my sisters.
It starts with dear sister, and so it's
from me to her. And all the way
through is is that loving relationship that me
and her are cultivating. And then
when I bring this up and I
and I focus
quite a bit on the male perspective and
the male difficulties around this. And so I
I I I was advised that maybe portraying
the women.
And so I had to change certain bits
and,
you know, there had to be some sort
of compromise,
but but
I actually also looked at it from a
male perspective.
Because we know and I think one of
the reasons really we're really honest as a
community. One of the reasons why polygyny is
such a sore spot and why so many
women feel so hard done by because of
it is because the way it's practiced in
the world. It's the fact that it's not
practiced the way it was intended to be
practiced. And
therefore,
there's a lot of pain around that. But
if and obviously, a lot of sisters sometimes
feel like, oh, they've just had a baby
and then you've married another wife. And there's
all those pain surrounding it. But if now
a husband is
having to come to this kind of decision
or this kind of conclusion
of, you know, this option
because of a situation like this, I also
think I've got a lot of burden on
him. There's a lot of problems that it
would be financially really, really difficult,
emotional,
socially,
dealing with 2 family, you know, 2 in
laws.
All those things are not easy for a
brother who didn't choose
to go out. We know there's men that
married 3, 4, 5, and they have 6
kids with each. Yes. They chose that.
For them. Right? If it's whatever.
But if this brother didn't choose this and
now he is having to deal with a
second wife,
you know, what does that mean?
All of that stuff, dealing with the emotions
and everything of the first one, that's actually
a really tricky situation to be in as
well.
So it's not just
the pain that this sister feels. I actually
think there's issues and things to manage
from potential second wife, the husband,
and the first wife. But I think we
just need to have an open mind, and
I think we sometimes have to just force
ourselves to be mature
and try
and think
what is the most important thing.
Is my happiness and, you know, having a
good life and growing and all these things
more important?
Or is it like my ego, my emotions,
and all of that stuff? So I would
say I know I took a while answering
that question, but
I I think I would say please be
open. Please be open. And and if a
sister can't do it, can't do anything, just
not not like that, don't fail.
But just have that conversation and be open.
Same with all the other ones, adoption, separating,
staying together for life. They're all really difficult
options. Every single one of them. None of
them. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
It's like, you know, it's subhanallah, sister says
you're really on this.
And it's true. It's true. You know, we
can see that you've you've you've got a
grasp on this issue. And I think the
reality of this situation, as you said, is
that there is no decision that will not
cost something.
Right? There's a sacrifice being made by someone
somewhere.
And I I always I off often think
as well in a situation where the husband,
you know,
is married to the wife, he's committed to
her, but would like to marry someone else
to have a child,
there there is, like you said, there's an
added bow there's an added burden really on
going through it that way. But I think
the reason that he's taking on that burden
is that his initial relationship is worth it
to him.
So his his wife is worth it. The
relationship he has with her
is worth enough to him that he wants
to keep that
intact
while also pursuing this thing which is halal.
Because if he couldn't deal with that and
he wasn't prepared to, you know, if he
didn't think the relationship was worth it and
he wasn't prepared to put in that work,
he would just say, just, you know, let's
divorce and let me marry somebody else that
is It's actually it's actually it's actually easier
for him. So let's say if the medical
condition is with the sister and and and
the brother's okay, like, you know, as far
as they know, It's actually much easier for
him to start again with somebody else and
have a fresh start. But to actually try
and make this kind of situation work
says a lot about how
that man wants to try and honor you,
him, you know, from our institution.
We've got a lovely, comment here from, YouTube.
Sister says, we both made the decision to
look for another wife in order to become
a big family. We did everything together. It
was so nice. That's what she said.
Passion of Allah. I may not have left
you and protect all of you in that.
But, yeah, I know I've gone slightly over.
Can I read? So, you know, I said,
I have some comments and questions come through
IG. Please. I haven't gone over, so I
won't go through the questions. But what I
will go through is somebody sent
somebody said these steps are necessary, and they
gave 5 steps to, you know, survive and
navigate marriage with this issue. And it's actually
it was actually a male, but
let me just read those points because I
really even for me reading them, I was
like, oh, Allahabad, so true.
So I'll just read them directly.
So
similar.
So they said
first thing is, they said, as a couple,
when you're going through this, so to make
du'a sincerely
and consistency
consistently.
I know it can get really, really tiring
making this du'a, and it just feels like
it's not happening. You know? Somebody mentioned 15
years for someone. It's very, very, very tiring,
but to try and stick with that. 2,
take an essential steps like medical help and
try your level best
through this whole process to have firm in
and in Allah. So it's that thing of
put the effort in, take action, don't bury
your head in the sand,
but ultimately
the result lies with Allah, so have faith
in that. Number 3,
not blaming each other
for it because this is from Allah. It's
a test for you both,
and there is no blame. Blame has no
space in this in this issue.
4, making sure that there's no abuse from
family relatives. That can be very common, sadly,
in Muslim cultures
where they don't even know. Sometimes it's the
male who has an issue, and the sisters
actually covering that up for him to protect
him. But what happens is then a lot
of abuse can come, usually at the sister,
but also it can happen to the brother.
So, actually, as a couple, really trying to
protect
and and and,
what's that word, defend
each other from that kind of abuse is
highly, highly important.
And the final and the final comment is
accepting the cover of our last panel is
best if they are on a it may
be best that they're unable to have a
child. For example, Qadr in the Quran, killed
the young boy and when prophet Moses, peace
be upon him, asked why he did that
for you know, to the boy. It was
explained that he, you know, was a test
for his parents and that they were believers.
But sorry. But he would be,
doing evil.
But we feared that he would repress, yet,
oppress them at rebellion and disbelief, subhanAllah. Allah
has the ultimate knowledge. Maybe for you, it's
better to adopt maybe or something like that,
and it's good for a husband and wife.
So it's this idea of it's just bringing
home that thing off. Sometimes we think this
couple, they got married and had a baby.
That's a blessing. This couple got married and
didn't have a baby. That's a test. That's
a curse. That's a trial. Whatever. Right? But
sometimes you don't know. We don't know where
the lies.
So maybe that baby that that couple were
given so easily is the real test that
allopurtech does. So that's just I really thought
that those 5 comments,
even though he even says, I know it's
not easy, but it's a really, you know,
important way to try and handle it, I
thought they were so, so, so, so true,
and I really wanna share that.
Those are ex I think those were excellences.
A a really, really wonderful way for us
to, you know, for us to to wrap
up because,
ultimately, as you said, it's all from Allah,
isn't it? You know? Absolutely.
All all risk is from him. Subhanahu wa
ta'ala. Your spouse, your children,
a spouse that comes, a spouse that doesn't
come, children that come that on time, early,
late, whatever. You know, Allah
decides
who will have and who will not.
So it's, you know, it's, this is something
that inshallah, if we can truly understand that
and accept that and submit to Allah's decree,
and be grateful for everything else that he
has blessed us with. Because I think, as
you said, as
I love the way you
so many so many of the tools that
you gave were about
decentralizing
the fertility or having a baby from the
relationship. Right? From the intimacy,
and just not making that the focus.
I think, Insha'Allah, I pray that this helps
thousands of couples out there.
You know, Insha'Allah who will come across this
video, Insha'Allah will come across your work. I've
dropped a link in the YouTube chat for
how people can find you on Instagram.
Everybody, please go to inspire her coaching
on Instagram
to follow sister Farah and to get in
touch. I think your book is due out.
When is the book coming out? June and
July. June. So we will we will be
we will be able to, you know, release
and people can do preorder and if for
that in the last couple of months, inshallah,
for about March. So, yeah, look out for
that. And, please, if you wanna DM me
on Instagram or even get in contact with
us, Simon, somehow, or whatever, please, if you
wanna be added to the email list so
that you're the first to know, please do
that.
Yeah. And we'll send all the details,
via the email. And, inshallah, once this live
is done, it will be added to the
description so that people can reach you directly.
It's just, jazakalakalukkalukkal.
It's been amazing having this session with you.
May Allah bless you in every aspect of
your life and, you know, give you the
good.
And Eusez, thank you for, you know, facilitating
all of this for us. It's amazing, and
it's needed.
Thanks for everybody for tuning in. I can
see all the comments. Jazak Alakhairan. I'm sorry
I couldn't comment you know, respond to every
everything I see. There's an amazing question about
egg freezing, which I don't think we have
time to look at now. But, like you
said, please do DM me on Instagram or
something. If you have more questions, then I'm
happy to answer.
I love it.