Naima B. Robert – Open Mic Should Muslims Stigmatise Divorce
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Everyone.
I have no idea how this is going
to go. I have no idea whether anybody's
going to show up,
whether,
we will have any live viewers.
I am doing this,
in a way as an experiment.
It's your sister Naima B. Robert here, and
I'm live streaming today via Zoom,
because we are experimenting
with a new
show format.
Right? And, we want to make sure,
that we can do it,
that, it works and that we can get
people to come on,
and have a chat.
So I've put together some
interesting,
topics of conversation.
And I want to hear from,
the people who follow me, who are on
this platform. I wanna hear from you guys.
So what we've done is, I'm in Zoom
right now. I'm live streaming into YouTube
and I'm inviting,
anybody who has a view on the
topic to join me in zoom
so we can have a conversation right now.
You know how debates work, right? Debates
are typically
there to,
highlight 2 opposing views.
And if you're involved in a debate, then
obviously your job is to defend your view.
Right?
Please let me know if you guys can
hear me, if you can see me clearly,
if everything's working as it should, please let
me know.
Like I said, there's 14 of you so
far, masha'Allah. Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Please do be active in the chat. That's
the whole point of this.
And I will be dropping the link for
the Zoom in the chat for those of
you who may want to come on and
share your opinion,
on this particular issue. Now
the reason I,
brought up the issue of,
of of divorce and whether divorce should be
stigmatized
is
partly
because
it's still such a big issue in the
community, IE divorce.
But also because my conversation with Umtalha
has just
has had so many views,
subhanAllah.
And she shared some, you know, we, we
had some quite strong words.
You know, we had some strong things to
say about divorce. Okay? Things that you do
not really hearing nowadays.
So I wanted to see
what people think, what what's the word on
the street, if you like, about whether
divorce should be
as stigmatized as it as it was,
whether it should be more stigmatized, whether we
should be lessening the stigma.
JazakAllah Khayron. There's a 1999
super chat, mashaAllah, the first one I've ever
had live, JazakAllah Khayron for that.
So let's, let's back up and let's get
some context. And like I said, if you
have,
an opinion on this issue, if you have
something that you would like to put forward,
something thoughtful, something thought provoking,
something interesting, something valuable to share,
please insha Allah,
just come and join me in Zoom. Okay.
I'll put the Zoom link in the chat.
Inshallah, it will work. Like I said, we'll
see. It's my first time doing it, so
we'll see. But the Zoom link is in
the chat.
If you want to come in to, to
have a conversation that we can do that
Insha Allah.
So
let's get some context.
So we know that,
unlike some other religions,
Islam does allow for separation between husband and
wife. We know that there are two forms
of divorce,
talaq,
which is a divorce,
given by the man, and a cholah, a
divorce requested by the woman. We know that
they have shurud. They have conditions. Okay? And
there's an etiquette around them.
And we also know that during the time
of the prophet salallahu alaihi wasallam, you know,
the
divorce was not something that was unheard of.
Right?
And in fact, if we look at the
Sira, we see that, you know, sometimes
divorce, multiple divorces, multiple remarriages were quite common.
Right? And even people marrying, you know, certain
people.
So during the time of the prophet, that's
what we see. Right?
And,
throughout
time, it would be so wonderful if we
had like a Muslim historian or somebody who
was well versed in sort of the long
view on Islamic history,
to give us context as to why
in certain Muslim
societies
divorce became something that is a complete taboo.
And in other societies,
divorce is acceptable.
Right?
So we have some communities where
if you wanted a divorce
or if you, if you, if you were
divorced
and you were sent home to your family,
that's it for you.
There's a black mark on your name.
No one will marry you.
The implication
is that you have failed,
to maintain your marriage and that you are
tainted somehow. I've heard so many stories of,
you know, people literally being ostracized, physically ostracized,
when they were divorced.
Married women not wanting to keep company
with that woman, her children being stigmatized,
maybe even kind of being taken by the
husband's family. And, you know, we have different
custody laws, you know, Islamically. Right?
But, you know, definitely
that divorce was like a death now. It
was like a death sentence. You will never
be a respectable member of society again.
So we've had that for a long time.
And that
while it meant that a lot of families
stay together,
I would argue
that at least a portion of those
families that stay together,
stay together because the cost of a divorce
for the woman
was too much.
That the risk that she would take in
actually leaving her marriage
was too high
and not something that she was prepared to
do. Okay.
So, so you had this, this very, very,
a lot of social pressure to stay in
the marriage and to ensure that you do
not get divorced.
So that means that society, you know, families
stay together,
but it also means that sometimes families stay
together in less than ideal
situations, right?
So fast forward now to where we are
today,
because I would argue that divorce has been
something that has been
undesirable
in every society. And, you know, in the
West, similarly, you know, certain, you know, sects
of Christianity like Catholics don't even believe in
divorce. Right? That it's not
possible to get a divorce. Right?
So up until the sixties, when you could
argue that divorce was something that was was
was rare and it was it was serious
when it happened. Right? And you would never
choose a divorce lightly
because of the social consequences,
because of the
stigma. So again,
the stigma meant that you would take it
very seriously, but it would also mean that
you,
may stay in a situation that, you know,
maybe is not an ideal situation, maybe is
not a safe situation.
SubhanAllah.
So I've got a comment here.
And so,
the comment is and thank you so much.
This is great. I love this because I
love it when I I get the feedback
from the chat. JazakAllah Khaira, I see you.
Sultan Mohammed, I see you there. Let me
do my monologue, and then I'm gonna let
you come in inshallah.
But we have a comment here,
which says, what should be stigmatized
is not divorce in and of itself,
but where people don't take the institution
seriously,
and don't go to reasonable lengths to save
the marriage, especially when there are children involved.
Divorce should not be done in haste. I
believe a lot of marriages can be saved
via reconciliation,
etcetera.
And I absolutely agree with that.
I I agree with that. Let me know
in the chat, those of you who are
listening, who are watching this, let me know
in the chat what you think,
whether you agree with that. I certainly think
that it's,
it's spot on. I think that's very, very
fair,
you know, fair way of looking at it
and yeah, it makes sense. Masha'Allah.
Is this a brother, brother Sultan? Is that
you?
I need to make sure that you are
able to actually use your camera because some
sometimes they don't let you do that. Are
you able to come on camera or will
you be off camera?
I can't hear you. You're muted.
So let's,
off camera. Fine. No problem. I'm going to
ask you to unmute Inshallah so you can
share your thoughts with, with everybody watching.
We'll need you to unmute inshallah.
Oops.
So sorry.
He, he unmuted and then I muted him.
Sorry about that.
Sorry guys. My first time doing this.
Forgive me for any glitches. Please do unmute
again. I won't touch anything.
Brother, welcome to the, the open mic. What
are your thoughts, Insha'Allah?
By the way,
the the they're not,
someone with great lot of experience, but it's
just,
you know, from what I've observed from other
people's,
situations is that,
when when when this is done in haste,
especially when there's children involved, it can have
very negative,
consequences.
You know, the the the the children suffer,
in a lot of situations, it can get
quite bitter as well,
you know, which can which can increase the
the stress loads,
of both both parties involved.
And I'm I'm a strong believer, and, one
of the persons of knowledge said this that
in our times,
and this is just general,
not us, is that,
if a if a marriage can be saved,
it's it's a good thing. And and I
agree with that.
Yeah. Like I said,
you you could approach.
These days, you you hear the terms, therapists.
And, you know, very sort of things you
could therapies you could take, maybe if somebody
has anger management issues,
and, you know, the list goes. And I'm
I'm nowhere, an expert, but I think that
until,
until means have been exhausted this is just
me personally. I think that people people should
stay in the institution of nikka. And then
if God or Allah thinks it'll work out,
then it should go their way. And Allah
knows best.
Yes. Allah knows best for sure, brother. And
for sharing that because, I do I think
I agree with you.
I think,
and I think probably we would all agree
with this that,
once children are involved, the stakes are so
much higher, aren't there? Obviously, 2 people who've
come together in Nikkah,
there's a reason why they came together insha'Allah.
Allah knows the reason. And, you know, it's
not just those 2 people that have come
together. It's families, you know, it's mothers in
laws, fathers in law, brothers in law, you
know, there's a whole,
a whole ecosystem that is built around this
relationship. Right? So that in itself is something
is something valuable.
But once children are involved,
the stakes become so much higher. And we
all know the statistics. Right? We all know
the statistics of children from divorced homes. So,
again,
going back to one of the comments in
the chat, which is that, you know, it
shouldn't be stigmatized because Allah has allowed it.
I think that that is,
a simplification
that it's not helpful,
if I may say that.
Just because something is permissible,
doesn't mean that we shouldn't be
cautious about it or shouldn't be circumspect or,
you know, you kind of be be be
wise about it, right?
Because of the because of the fallout, especially
on the children.
And this is something that, you know, with
speaking to sisters and I've, I've shared of
my own experience here is I think when
sisters are in a situation that they feel
is a bad situation,
we know as women, when emotionally we're in
a, in a particular place, it can be
very difficult for us to shift that. And
it can be very difficult for us to
see the forest for the trees because all
we can see and feel is is kind
of what is is on us right now.
Whatever it is that we're feeling, we think
that he's a narcissist,
or we think that he doesn't appreciate us,
or we think that we're, you know, whatever
the case may be, we're in our feelings
and it's difficult for us to be able
to see the big picture. Right?
So, you know, many I think today,
because divorce is much easier now than it
used to be. And brother, if you disagree
or anybody else guys, you know, feel free
to, to chime in.
I think because there is less stigma today,
I think because it's much more common today
in the wider society and with the Muslims.
And also because there is an element of
almost glorification
of divorce and, and kind of being free
and getting, you know, free from this oppressive
situation that you may be in,
there's a tendency to glamorize,
the fact that, you know, you can get
out and you can be free and you
can live your life, right? And finally be
yourself and all of this type of thing.
And I, I think that that, that messaging
is very, very damaging because it really only
tells a tiny part of the story, which
is the woman's own personal journey in the
short term. Right? Brother, please, yep, chime in.
Feel free. Just unmute Insha'Allah.
Again, this is not a a sort of
expert opinion or anything. It's just from my
observations
in in society is that,
and this is, I'll put my hand up
that is a bit of a bias for
you, is that I found that when
for when when I hear about
people, part in company, especially when it's done
in here, so when others have felt that,
you know, it could have been salvaged.
One of the end products I've seen is
that, you know, quite quite often is that
the the sister,
you know, falls into low human,
and and and a depression.
And, you know, and I think that can
further sort of stigmatize and and, you know,
I've heard on multiple occasions that,
you know, when when when when this is
done, you know, there's still that feeling that,
oh, you know, I I made a mistake
or I wanna get back with him and
so on and so forth. And I love
that. That that is panallah. You know, brother,
what you just mentioned there is something that
very few people talk about. We do hear
like you said, we hear about and again,
because I'm kinda plugged into more the sister
side of things,
we do hear a lot of stories of
sort of rebirth after divorce. Right? Healing after
divorce and kind of starting your life again,
etcetera.
But I think one of the things that
we don't hear about guys is divorce regret.
And this is what you're alluding to.
It's
that
realization.
Once the
high, the dopamine, the endorphins, right, of no
longer being in that uncomfortable
situation that you were in before,
once those
those chemicals
a single mother, of being single, of, you
know, managing the relationship between the children and
their father, of their your ex in laws
and your ex and the new guy and
all of this stuff, money,
time,
not having help at home, you know, certain
things that you may have taken for granted
when you actually had a man in the
house
that you realize, oh my God, like, oh,
so that's what he used to do the
whole time.
That divorce regret is not something that people
are
are brave enough really to talk about, but
I think it's important too.
Because there's sisters out there right now who
are feeling like, ugh, I can't breathe in
this marriage. I can't breathe. I need to
get out. So and so did it. So
and so did it. That sister seems to
be okay.
Because they're not being honest or they haven't
necessarily been very honest about the reality
of what it's like to to kind of
live with that,
you know, it's,
it's it's like I said, this rosy picture.
Right? And like you said, they they decrease
in iman.
Because again, sorry to go on guys,
but I I again,
I've said this before and I'll say it
again. Sometimes the value of your husband,
when you see that he's not giving you
what you need or what you feel you
need emotionally, for example, or even financially, for
example,
we can tend to make that the whole
story.
That's the whole story. He's not doing what
he's supposed to do. He doesn't understand me.
He doesn't get me. Whatever the case may
be.
And we don't take a moment to pause
and look at Yaba. What is he doing?
How in what ways is this working?
In what ways am I
better off in this situation?
Right? How is this situation actually safeguarding me,
protecting me? Right? We, we very rarely do
that. And it's only when
the situation is broken
and you're out of that situation
that you realize,
oh, wow. Okay. I really am out here
on my own, responsible for everything, tired all
the time. You know, all of those things.
And guys, just a caveat, we are not
talking about,
you know,
extreme
situations.
So anything to do with abuse, domestic violence,
drug abuse, and all of those types of
things. We're not talking about those.
And we very rarely talk about those on
this channel because most of the time,
the things that people are separating for, from
what I can see,
is is is like low level conflict. Right?
There are extremes, of course, but we're not
talking about the extremes.
So, brother, did you want to add in
anything else before you hop off? And does
anybody else want to jump on and, and
come with a view? We've got some great
chat going on here. Masha'Allah.
Love to hear any other
views either more people. Yeah.
I just got a few just random thoughts
or points,
whatever.
Go for it. I think that,
your mindset before marriage,
can determine how you are during marriage. So
maybe,
you know, if people did some,
good homework, shall I say? I don't know.
I can't think of a better term. Yeah.
You know? Maybe they might not have trouble
in in their marriage. Maybe better due diligence.
I mean I mean going back a decade
or or 2 ago,
and the other time I'd hear stories about,
people, meeting at Dohr time and doing any
Asar.
It's not I'm not saying it's I'm not
saying it's, you know, haram or anything like
that, but it's something I I don't I
don't advise. I think that in our time
where it's easy for certain people to,
let's say, put mask on, I think, good
due diligence is is is good and healthy.
Agreed. Agreed. So guys, well, let's take that
as a point. Let's take that as a
point insha'Allah that, you know, obviously if we
want to avoid more divorces, we need to
make sure that we do our due diligence
beforehand
and choose more carefully.
So I think that's a very, very valid
point.
We had some people who had come into
the Zoom, but they've, opted out, so that's
fine. Let's
have a look and see what's going on
in the chat. So we've got some sisters
here saying, I don't regret my decision.
I'm glad, that's the case.
And, another sister said, I don't regret mine
because he wasn't providing anything,
for sure. And, you know, this isn't really
a situation of of blaming the woman.
You know, that's, that's not what we're here
to do. And I, as I said,
some people,
we know that there are situations where they
are not meant to be together. Like they're
just bad for each other.
Okay.
We know from the Seera
examples of a woman who married a man
who loved her to pieces,
but she couldn't stand him and she couldn't
give him his rights. So the prophet said,
can you give him back his garden? She
said, yes, khalas, that's the end of that.
Right? So
let's try not to take
anything that's said here personally,
because there is nothing personal.
We're just having a conversation.
So for sure,
I know of women who have,
who have, who have been divorced or who
have asked for a divorce. And Alhamdulillah,
it was the best thing for them and
their children.
But there are also, and we we we
do hear about those, but there are also
others who asked for divorce or pushed for
divorce or whatever the case may be. And
found
that on light the grass wasn't greener on
the other side. Right? And so we need
to also be honest about that as well.
Because as somebody said in the chat, you
know, the grass isn't greener on the other
side.
It's,
you know, it's it's greener where you water
it. You know? And I
think like you were saying, brother Sultan,
you know,
that
taking the steps,
getting advice,
getting help,
looking at your own behavior,
regulating your own emotions, making dua,
getting therapy if it's needed. Right? These are
ways for you to water your garden. And,
also, just doing the things that are going
to help the marriage to to be a
good place to be.
One of the things that used to upset
me so much, I remember back in the
day,
was how many couples I would hear of
who, mashaAllah, like they were married and they
had children and they had a family,
but they never had any nice times. You
know? Like there was never any effort. This
is back in the day, by the way.
Sorry, guys. I'm showing my age here. But
there was
very little effort to make the relationship itself
an enjoyable place to be for the man
or the woman. Right? So
working on our relationship, Yani.
You know, this is this is something that
we can all do. And, if you haven't
seen it already, I'd like to direct you
to my,
my video 10 steps to avoiding divorce.
Because I think that there were some, you
know, some good points made there. And, there
was a brother also who said that he,
he doesn't regret his divorce,
because he did what he could to repair
and connect. And at the end of the
day, what can you do? If you make
every effort, Allah knows.
Allah knows.
So let's see. Let's see what else there
is in the chat. Let's see some opposing
views.
Wawa says it should be stigmatized because people
are very casual about it. Yes. Well, this
is interesting.
YTK says it should be a last resort,
but sometimes it's necessary. There's abuse of the
woman, molestation of
Nobody is blaming people who are coming out
of those situations because we all know we
we all know
the basic standards.
Right? We all know what is intolerable and
what is dangerous for us in this dunya
and. We know what those situations are. So,
Yani,
we're, we're not saying that,
we're not,
we're not in the place anymore
where we're telling
men or women
to stay in the situation
regardless.
Right? Regardless.
Doesn't matter.
What she does, what he does,
what's going on. It doesn't matter. Stay in
the situation. Nobody's out here saying that. So
let's be
fair. Let's be fair.
Alhamdulillah. Okay. We've got some people,
wanting to come in, inshaAllah.
So let's see. Let me, let me do
my, my thing. Yes, brother Sultan. Go ahead.
Just another sort of just a random thought
that came, and maybe if you had any
views and it'd been testimony or anybody else
for that matter is that, let's say you're
in a particular situation,
within, you know, your your partnership.
And even though it's,
it's not, you know, hit the rocks, but
if you see that it can be a
big issue
in the future, it might be an idea
to sort of get it addressed or maybe
sit sit with some some scholars to maybe,
you know,
sort it out now rather than later. So,
you know, it's not, you know,
in a bad predicament later.
100%.
100%. I've got a great comment here from
brother Mohammed
who says,
marriage is a mutual partnership of 2 consenting
adults. There's 2 equal consenting adults. Marriage should
not feel like a parent child relationship.
Regardless of how right you think you are
and how wrong wrong you think your spouse
is, it is wrong to treat your spouse
like a child.
Treat your spouse with dignity and respect.
Embrace your spouse's unique individuality.
Consider your spouse's preferences, feelings, choices, and opinions.
The oneness of marriage does not turn spouses
into clones.
When the 2 become 1, they do not
become the husband or the wife. Even identical
twins think differently. Good point. Just because your
spouse sees things differently does not make them
wrong.
Create an environment in your marriage where each
spouse has the freedom to express their Allah
given unique individuality.
Celebrate your differences. Do not let them separate
you. How does it feel to be in
a marriage where your feelings, choices, and opinions
are not considered?
Whoo. JazakAllah Khair and brother Muhammad. That is
a whole word right there. Masha'Allah.
What do you all think of that sound
advice?
Do you think that many people see marriage
that way? Do you think not enough of
us
do? Again, this is a mic, it's an
open mic guys. It's time for you. It's
not really a space for me to speak
because if it was just for me to
speak, I would just do a video and
go live, and we wouldn't invite anybody onto
the stream. But you guys are invited to
come onto the stream
and to, to take part.
And Ahmed says, just seeing the rate of
divorce globally makes the idea of approaching a
girl scary.
Well, what I would say to that is
that, you know, at the end of the
day, whatever is written for us is written.
So
take heart in the fact that just because
there is a global trend, just because there
is,
you know, like statistics that prove x, y,
and z
is not a proof that that's what's going
to happen to you
necessarily.
Right? You may need to do more due
diligence. You may need to work harder at
it or whatever the case may be. But
at the end of the day, the outcome
is in the hands of Allah.
So I remember
I had a very interesting back and forth
with a brother who was, black pill. I
don't know whether you guys know,
sort of what the
black
pill mindset is all about, but it's very
statistic
it's very statistics based.
And I I call it like a nihilistic
philosophy, really. It's this kind of doomsday
thinking
that
if I'm not of the chosen,
you know, kind of that's the top, whatever
percent,
then, you know, I'm doomed to not be
chosen,
to not find a woman who who will
be who will, you know, be with me
and my bloodline will die
because I'm short or Asian or this or
that or that.
And, you know, I tried to say to
him that, you know, you don't know what
Allah has written for you, and that's a
fact.
You do not know what your outcome is
unless you until and unless you take the
steps to actually doing what it is that
you want and going for what you want,
you will never ever know whether you could
be successful.
So reading statistics and getting emotional about statistics
and kind of believing that the statistics
will determine your outcome
for me is, is,
yeah, it's, it's a losing battle as far
as I'm concerned, but that's my take on
it. I dunno if anybody else has got
a different take on black pill or anything
else, please inshallah do, do let me know.
Awaleh, welcome to the, welcome to the stream.
What are your, what are your thoughts? Should
divorce be stigmatized
more or less? What are your thoughts?
Oh, I need you to unmute.
I need you to unmute.
There we go.
We can't hear you yet.
Okay. Am I still here now? Yes. Yes.
Perfect.
Okay.
I'm I'm I'm from
Wow. Amazing. Welcome.
So, yes. So, actually, I was divorced. At
a 100 and
and
and I I did I had family members
that that was divorced and all that. And,
in in our community,
you know, community department is that when you're
when you're getting married, if you find somebody
that was already divorced,
it's kind of stigmatized a little bit because
you're either the mother or the father will
tell you why don't you get married to
a to a unmarried woman before.
You know what I mean? So
Mhmm. That's the that's the small problem about,
you know, community. Usually, that's that's what happened.
So it's still being stigmatized if
if if I wanna be honest with you.
So, and and and and, technically, I'm I'm
from a Somali community. So,
anytime to say, I'm I'm I'm very
I've I've taken care of that. And I've
seen I've seen experience where a young man
will will will, will will, will meet a
woman, a young a young woman, but she
has one kid. She was divorced.
And the mother mother will tell him, okay.
You can find a unmarried woman,
and then Right. Her life with.
That's the number for me.
Mhmm.
Now my my understanding, and again, please correct
me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of
the Somali community is sort of since the
displacement,
it's led to a lot of instability in
families. Would you say that that's that that's
true?
A lot. A lot. Everywhere you go from
Canada to British Britain,
Europe is the same story. Right? The single
mother
Yeah. Yeah. Father.
You know, it's, it's very it's very pandemic.
It's a pandemic. You know? It's not coming.
Subhanallah. May Allah make it easy. So, my
I'm curious to know because okay. If I
if I look at the Somali community and
the Asian community, for example, I think that
their attitudes towards sort of divorce and remarriage
and and, you know, just the those types
of, you know, family setups is quite different,
certainly in, like, our parents' generation.
So how has that instability and these destabilization
of families
and, you know, sink mother headed households. Right?
Women headed households,
which I think are, are quite common in
the Somali community compared to other Muslim communities,
other immigrant communities.
How has that impacted
the young people coming up? How has that
impacted the girls and how has that impacted
the boys from your perspective?
Good question. Wow. I got you. Well, the
the first thing for the for the girls,
in my opinion, it impacted
they see a they they see a Somali
man.
They put him in in the same brush.
Right? They call him the
Right.
They call him the. You know? The. Yeah.
The. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm familiar with that.
I assume that this Somali man will eventually
leave with me. I mean, I I I'm
I'm not present in in all the same,
but it's just, I don't blame them too
because they they they probably grew up with
only a single mother also. Right? But it
seems that all probably somebody has done as
usual, leaving leaving the wife
and the kid
and getting married to a young woman.
And and then that will that's in the
short way to the whole the whole kid.
Right? The daughter, the the
the and and the man. So,
concern is the the the man. I mean,
the and if if if if this gentleman
had a son, the son will eventually,
if Allah protected,
he will be a good kid. Otherwise, he
will be on the street.
The mother cannot be both at the mother
at the same time. Right? So the kid
will be in the street,
and eventually, you know, keep the cools and
all that. So you need you need more
more friends.
Yeah. So that's It's I mean, it's it's
ends up being the same situation, doesn't it,
of like just in general single mother households.
We do tend to see, you know, issues
with discipline,
issues with, you know, neglect and and just
being over overworked really. And I know Somalis
often have big families as well. So there's
like a lot of children, masha'Allah, that the
woman is responsible for. So, yeah, it's tough.
May Allah make it easy. May Allah make
it easy. And also, what I wanna put
on social media. Oh, man. Social media also
causes a disaster in our community in Even
for the marriage, a couple, and it's Really?
Honestly. Because, In what sense? Like, what's what's
happening?
I've seen, like,
a woman would say, okay. This man,
your man is my man in the middle
of the YouTube and all that. And it's
I mean, I don't I don't really know
that. Wow.
What's going on? Messy. You know?
Subhanallah. Yeah. So a man
a woman will appear in the middle of
Facebook,
and then the and his his ex his
other wife will insult him, and it's just
it's just drama on Facebook. I mean, TikTok,
whatever you call it. I don't know.
Yeah.
YouTube. Yes.
Masha'Allah. May Allah help us and make it
easy. May Allah bless your marriage, brother, and
give you
so many years of, of strong
companionship and love and, and commitment,
and allow you to to do the work
that you're here to do on this earth
together and with your families. I mean,
I pray that everybody else who's watching this,
who's listening. Thank you so much for sharing
that perspective. JazakAllah Khayron.
We've got, Brother Issa, the black telect here.
Assalamu alaykum, Brother Issa. Welcome, sister.
So what are your views? Divorce? Should it
be stigmatized?
More? Less? What's happening? What's the word on
the street?
From what I gathered from your previous conversation,
I thought you were it seemed you were
talking about
women who were divorced afterwards.
Is that what it is, or is it
in general?
Yeah.
Is that what you thought? Yeah. I kept
it open because it's not really about stigmatizing
divorcees. I didn't say divorcees.
It's just divorce in general, you know, as
a, as a thing. So we've been having
a conversation about,
you know, the sort of the history of
divorce within a Muslim communities.
You know, whether
it's been something that people have kind of
kind of taken in their stride or if
it's been like that's the end of the
world for you. And also looking at changing
attitudes towards divorce today and the kinds of
reasons that people are divorcing today, and whether
we need to start having conversations
about, Hey, do you know what? It's not
all rosy after divorce. You know, it's not
like this big freedom ride, you know, that
you go on and all of a sudden
your life changes and you can be your
own person and all of this. So these
are some of the things we've been talking
about. What are your views anyway?
Okay. So for me, it's a much bigger
thing.
It's more to do with my approach to
a lot of this is this.
Subconsciously,
the very belief the true firm belief in
Islam
has really been attacked by the scientific theories.
So a lot of people's faith,
I would say true true faith in the
hereafter
Mhmm.
Has really been kinda dismissed.
Really you know, like, when you get up
and go outside your house, you have faith,
let's say, that a bus is gonna arrive
and so on.
Yes. You know, that's reality.
Yeah. When we were all living in our
different countries and so on, you know, the
general people, Christians, believe this, the culture over
here believe that. We were also on the
same level.
Now that science
has taken us, you know, down to quantum
physics, etcetera
Mhmm. And that we're kind of following them.
It's not like we're getting new theories
from our own channel, our own perspective from
our own scholars. Fair enough. Mhmm. Therefore, we're
using their technology, their science, and we're kinda
behind them.
Yeah. That's true. The the general masses of
Muslims,
you know, I think from what I can
see, they
generally would take them as the leaders in
everything else. So it becomes a faith that's
more of a culture.
And then
even then, we're imbibing their culture
because, you know, they've come everything else that
they've come with
has appears to be superior.
Yeah. So
when it comes all the answers.
Exactly.
So, you know, a lot of us, let's
say, a lot of Muslims would go to
their therapist, their, this, their, that. Whatever it
is, it's kind of like we have to
study
their
courses then come back and then say, oh,
I've got this qualification here in this. Right.
And then here's a solution. Yep. When it
should be, this is the Quran. This is
the sciences that the prophet, peace be upon
him, bought sunnah, etcetera. Mhmm. Here's our solutions
direct from them.
You know, it may not be calculated that
way by most people. But when you think
about it, that's how your subconscious is gonna
calculate. Mhmm. It's very basic. If you've got
the word of Allah Yeah. Supreme wisdom of
everything, but yet human beings over here are
telling you more than you know about what
your lord is telling you.
And it kind of indicates that they know
more than your god. That's the kind of
thing that you
that that's kind of what your subconscious is
is is very you might not like it.
That's uncomfortable. That's very uncomfortable. It's it's very
basic like that. Yeah. The subconscious doesn't really
have all of these other ins and outs.
Do you sort do you Yeah. Do you
get my point? If if Yes. It's it's
very basic.
So,
in regards to divorce,
again,
I can see patterns of which
we're one foot, let's say, in Islam Yep.
Another foot in the Western culture.
Yep.
So we come with the idea of marriage
and how it's supposed to be based upon
the traditions, let's say, of ancient Arabia.
Right? So how how we read it. Yeah.
And then we're trying to mix and match
that culture with modern day
lifestyle.
How is that? It doesn't work,
especially with all the things that we do
watch on TV. No matter what, you know,
the lifestyles, the the talk show, whatever it
is. That's true. Yep. You know, it a
lot I think you, you heard me on
the show with the other brother. I can't
remember his name.
What's his name? Anyway, he's got he's got
a new app out,
NSN, whatever.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway,
what was I saying? Sorry.
But my main point is this,
we need to get rooted
in our own
sciences of life in every subject
from the Quran.
If it doesn't work that way, if it
doesn't come back to that,
we are really not gonna have any real
foundational basis.
Yep. For telling children
that are grown up in the Internet age.
If I don't know I don't know how
old you are. Right? But all I know
is I remember the days when there was
no Internet.
And I'm thinking
the dependency
that I have with the Internet now.
Yeah. When I when my phone broke and
so on, I was like, right. You know?
So imagine if you didn't know anything else
by the time you attend,
this was your whole thing.
That's I'm I'm I'm suggesting that your neurons
are growing with the Internet being ignored. For
sure. For sure. 100%.
Yeah. To the library and have to wait
4 weeks for a book for them to
order from the British library and all it.
Do you see what I'm saying? These are
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's completely you know, it's
a rewiring. It's a complete rewiring of knowledge
and the way that we that we gain
knowledge. Right?
Because as you're saying, you had gone to
the library, wait 4 weeks, read the book.
Right? And then kind of distill what you
need to distill. Now you just Google
it. Just go to YouTube. You know? You
go literally go to YouTube and search it
up. Go to Google and search it up.
It's a complete rewiring. Sorry. I interrupted you.
Please continue. No. It's fine. Because what
how can I put it? We
really need to understand
psychology. For me, the the main thing is
psychology.
Right? How the mind works,
how we deal with whatever we're facing,
And I think the scholars need to study
psychology,
because
they're teaching it according to tradition.
Since colonization,
tradition has to change
because
the leading system that we all seem to
follow when it comes to everything else other
than Islam,
right, which we follow tradition in,
is another system that you could say is
anti Islam.
So, you know, the children are kind of
like, well,
religion sort of become a backstory.
Your version of Allah, etcetera, is is kind
of like Christianity has become sort of a
cultural name.
You see what I mean? It's it's it's
and I it's to be honest, Muslims are
walking around with blinkers.
The scholars, you know, it's it's all about
the hereafter the hereafter. And I'm saying, well,
Islam brought a balance between this world and
the hereafter.
And that means you have to catch up
with whatever system is around you. And that's,
to me, is the job of the scholars.
So I would say they're not doing their
job. It's as simple as Right. A lot
of them are staying wherever they are in
a little holy group, and they're not getting
out there like the prophet, peace point, went
out there and amongst the people to see
what's going on and
understood and got you know, fair enough he
got wah e, but I'm saying everyone else,
you know, they would know what's going on
in their society.
There seem to be a massive line
between the masses of people and the scholars.
They don't seem to know what's really going
on.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. For sure. Mhmm.
All the discussions which we're having
now is an example of what needs to
be had.
Do To show I mean, these types of
things where we're getting down to the crux.
What is going on out here? You know,
our young Muslim youth are joining gangs
just because of a certain area. What where
you know, what is going do you know
what I mean? Yeah.
It literally is where,
yeah. I would sorry. Getting back to stigma
and divorce.
It should be
can you define stigmatize, please?
I think stigma okay. Well, I don't wanna
go to Google, guys. Maybe you wanna give
us a your definition of stigma, but my
definition of stigma is where that particular action
invites censure.
It invites,
you know, a negative response.
Right?
Yeah. It's not a neutral thing. It's not
like, oh, you do what you don't do.
It's cool. It's it it there is a
negative response. There is censure. And I'm going
to use the word judgement, right, even though
nobody wants to judge anything nowadays,
but I will I will use that because
typically if something is stigmatised,
the people who are involved in that are
judged. Right? There there is a judgment that's
being made. So I I I do think
that when we we can go into this
now, I think, because I think
the the kind of modern society or postmodern
society that we live in today, especially, especially
the one that is
that is being shaped by liberal values.
Secular liberal values, especially like the whole woke
trend and sort of wokeism, like wokeish ideas
is this idea that there is no there
should be no shame.
There should be no stigma. Right? Like, it's
your truth. You know, the subjective truth, the
whole subjective truth thing, the whole subjective morality,
the whole idea that, you know, like everything
is valid and everyone is valid and everyone's
opinions are valid. Everyone's emotions are valid. Everything
is valid. Right?
And the thing is,
the outcomes
of a society in which, for example,
premarital
relations are not stigmatized.
Right? We know that from the 19th, sort
of late 1950s onwards, we had the sexual
revolution and everything that came with that, which
allowed free access to to to, you know,
for men and women to to indulge without
marriage.
And if we look at the impact of
that on society, on generations now of children,
across the board, but in particular communities as
well, you'll see that those outcomes were overwhelmingly
negative. For example, single motherhood,
teenage motherhood. Right?
And in a world today where we don't
stigmatize,
where there is no shame, where there is
no censure, I think that
as Muslims and this sometimes people feel like
annoyed with this, that why why are Muslims
so uptight? You know, Muslims need to embrace
x, y, zed. We need to let go
of shame. You know, we need to it
stop stigmatizing.
And this is definitely a result of the
environment that we're in today, which is this
extreme
secular liberal,
you know, come as you are, do whatever
you want. Right? So when Muslims talk like
this, I can tell that they've been on
that side of the camp. Right? But my
point is
what people don't realize is that, yes,
it's not nice to be shunned.
And it wasn't nice
to shun a woman who got pregnant before
marriage. It wasn't nice. Nobody liked that. Right?
It wasn't nice when they used to take
away the babies and put them in orphanages,
for example, which is what they used to
do. Right? It wasn't nice.
But it meant that there was a consequence
for certain actions.
And now that we don't have the consequences,
what are we seeing? We're seeing a society
where it is absolutely normal for 11, 12,
13 year olds to be sexually active,
where, you know, girls can be mothers many
times over by the time they're 22, 23
for baby daddies, and and and everything that
goes with that because there is no stigma.
Because there is no shame. Because it's like,
it's cool. It is what it is. You
know? So
Muslims that are
pushing, against
our kind of moral
certitude, if you like, need to be aware
that when you take that away,
you will go down the route of everybody
else.
Because as soon as it's okay for I
mean, we know what's happening in the community
already, right, in the Muslim world, that those
barriers are being broken down. But there's still
a stigma attached. It's still not okay. It's
still not celebrated like, Yeah, yeah, everyone's doing
it. It's not like that yet.
Soon as it becomes like that, we will
be having problems with teenage mothers. We will
be having, you know, baby mama drama. We
will be people talking about marrying single mothers
right now within the Muslim community and the
manosphere and everything, they won't be talking about
marrying sisters who've been married before. They'll be
talking about marrying sisters who've had children outside
of marriage, you know, if we don't kind
of pull it back. What are your thoughts
on that? Okay. So
100%
in what you're saying. But before I go
there, I wanna ask you,
what do you think
of the way in which
it appears there is a bias towards the
females?
In other words, if they are remember, they're
the ones that get divorced. Right?
Easily, so to speak.
So in other words, the stigma is more
on them
rather than the man. So in other words,
if the man divorced you,
we're not gonna judge the man Yeah. Because
he wouldn't really want to divorce you. He
would just get another wife, let's say. Right?
Potentially. Yeah. But I'm just saying, this is
maybe how it's seen outside,
you know, of that house. You don't know
the reasons inside. You just know these 2
were divorced. Yeah. So because the man could
have had another wife, there must be something
wrong with you. And I'm saying, if you
keep that stigma,
if this pressure on this side Mhmm. I
think it will assist
because
the society set up is so that the
female
has a whole heap of freedom of choice
without the information of her consequences.
Mhmm. So she's got all of these things
laid out like a child.
You spoil a child.
Mhmm. And don't say, well, you know, once
you keep spoiling this child, when it gets
older and it needs to do things for
itself, it's gonna look for mommy and daddy
to keep helping it, and they're not gonna
be there all the time. Yeah. See what
I'm saying? You don't discipline your child when
it goes to school. It's gonna try and
mess around, and some other kid's gonna put
it in his place or something like that.
So similarly,
you're given all this freedom without being told
the consequences.
Mhmm. And it's the society as well. So
one of the problems is
we don't have communities.
And I gave an example on the other
show of the Jewish community.
Yes. They kind of dismiss you out of
the thing. You're like your your cousins talk
talking to you. Everyone's you you miss Yeah.
Closeness
of the community. So when we're called,
insane,
from what I know of the root word
of this, it's it's about,
what's the word that was used? Basically, it's
about
the humanity,
the the the the
unity of human beings being together. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Which you look at more other cultures,
they place more emphasis
on doing things together
Yes. As opposed to the technology.
And that's why they didn't need to do
all the other stuff and have all these
other things to occupy their time because they
love the company that they had with each
other. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? Yeah.
So
it's kind of like we need to sorry.
So you were asking a question about what
I think about the the the the bias,
I think, the balance.
And what what was the exact question?
Right. So what I was coming with with
that,
the prophet, peace upon him,
and Allah has said that the the wives
have to obey the husbands.
Right?
And that you shouldn't refuse a husband on
a hot stove, on a back of a
camel, etcetera.
Mhmm. But then I don't know if you
know, a lot of people didn't know this
Hadith where the prophet, peace of mind, said,
if you are not good to your wife
during the day, do not expect her to
be good to you at night. Okay? So
I'm saying this is the advice to the
man and this is the advice to the
woman.
So we're told the man is told, basically,
in this scenario,
that Allah hates divorce
and his throne shakes.
Mhmm. So that's to the man who has
the power to just divorce.
So on both sides, the female is tempted
out there. Yeah. I can divorce. I've got
all this support. I've you know, I can
get couple of kids, and I get flat
and blah blah blah blah.
But the stigma
of being the divorcee,
the woman in if the society kept this
up where it's embarrassing for a woman to
say, I've been divorced.
I got married, and I've been divorced. Mhmm.
I'm saying that would tip a balance
in this society where you go, girl, it
wasn't good enough for you, that type of
talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I
I definitely I'm glad you brought that up,
and I certainly do hope that, you know,
none of my viewers have friendship groups like
that, because
those types of hype girl,
you know, you know, you deserve better, you
know, he's doing this, he shouldn't be doing
that. And that, you know, that, that kind
of that energy isn't helpful. Let's put it
that way. The energy isn't helpful.
So okay. So so let's let's let's let's
sit on this for a second because there's
a a comment came in from sister Aisha,
Jazakl Haheir and sister. And she says, sorry
to say, but why don't you talk about
men who abuse women for years years?
I understand becoming a single mother can be
hard and not the way you might think,
but what's better, living with someone who treats
you like a slave and abuses you physically
and emotionally or leaving?
And I just wanna say
this always happens
every time we have this conversation,
unfortunately. And the thing is that anybody who
feels triggered by this conversation and certainly triggered
by my views on this topic,
I would like to just make it clear.
This isn't about you and your personal situation.
We are talking about
low level conflict here. We're talking about, you
know, non extreme situations because I don't believe,
and brother Esau, maybe you have a different
view on this.
I don't believe
that today,
the vast majority of divorces that we're seeing
are as a result of extreme
abuse and violence and and drug abuse and
the things that people have mentioned.
I don't think that that's the case today.
I don't know. What do you think? From
what you've seen anecdotally.
I definitely agree that is not what's happening.
It's kind of like, as I said, again,
on the other show,
they are going into these marriages
mainly based upon
the pay the passion
part. So, you know, they want to get
certain fancies in their head fulfilled,
and they they get fulfilled within 6 months.
I know that you talk I've come across
ones that have been talking about, you know,
that they, this brother, he didn't he wanted
to marry me, but he didn't wanna do
what was it? He didn't wanna, you know,
do his part in a marriage and get
a job or whatever it was.
And, oh, they they found the one, and
then 6 6 months later, they were divorced.
And I'm like, well I don't know. Because
you were not looking
deeper into what your marriage is entailing.
Before, when we used to get married back
in the day, even in the UK, but
let's go back to the traditional Muslim places.
Mhmm. It was a whole village and culture.
So you would have Yeah. The the female
and her cousins coming around, her sister. You
know, everyone's getting together around you. You're having
a baby. As I said again, the company
is what's going on. It's the community. It's
the community. Yeah. Form these
similar households where you get married, you go
to your house.
You're in there with your husband. You have
your your children,
and you're living this lifestyle,
you know,
kind of on top of each other. It's
Yeah. And and needing so much from this
man. Guys, I just wanna speak to the
sisters for a second here because I've said
this before. I'm a I'm a keep saying
it because nobody can argue with me on
this. And I do and if you can
believe me, if you can argue with me
on it, come into the stream because I
challenge you. What I believe is that
our generation of Muslim women,
and definitely the ones after us, we have
been conditioned
to
see intimate relationships in a particular way. To
have certain expectations of our intimate relationship. And
I'm gonna say intimate relationships because it's not
marriage.
It's not marriage.
And any,
any auntie,
any church elder, any Imam, any scholar can
tell you
marriage,
the way that we know marriage to be,
and have always known marriage to be as
human beings forever.
Looks nothing like the romantic relationships that we
see in movies.
It's just comp- 2 completely different concepts, right?
We are primed for romantic
relationships.
And if people see think that the romance
and the passion
is the basis of the relationship.
Because that's what we've been told. But as
you know, up until very recently, people didn't
even think that romantic love belonged in a
marriage at all.
Like, if you had a romantic love, that's
an affair. Okay? That's a dalliance. That's not
your wife. That's not your husband. And you
if you go into the history, guys, you'll
see this. Right? Especially in the UK and
in the in the west in general, you'll
see.
Marriage
is an institution.
Marriage has always been seen as a duty,
as, as something that is about building, about
legacy, about family, about community.
It's not about you.
It's not about how
high your emotions are or how this guy
fulfills you or makes your dreams come true,
puts you on this pedestal, makes you feel
like the only girl in the world. You
know those stupid songs that you guys see
out there that everyone thinks, oh my god,
like goals.
That's not marriage.
Right? So unfortunately,
Muslims,
like everyone else, we have drunk that Kool
Aid. Now I would say, I argue, that
the sisters get it worse than the brothers.
I think the brothers do have a certain
element of conditioning from society when it comes
to sort of how to be as a
man, and, you know, and and kind of
how to make your woman love you and
the kind of things that women want, etcetera.
There is that conditioning.
But I would say that girls grow up
with this idea, the Disney fantasy, right? The
Hollywood, the Bollywood.
And we literally get married. We perform niqueur,
and we expect that from our husbands.
And when we don't get that,
we are disappointed. We're frustrated. We feel like
I'm missing out on this love affair that
I'm, I'm due. I deserve this love affair.
Like everyone has the one, right?
Everyone has the one, the, the soulmate.
This, this guy's not my soulmate.
He doesn't think that I'm the cutest thing
in the world. You know, he doesn't make
me feel like X, Y, and Z. Like
he's not the one. And that's
subhanAllah.
I believe that
until and unless we can detox
from those narratives and start to get back
to what marriage is really about according to
our deen,
which is guys
a way to earn Jannah.
A way to get closer to Allah Subhanahu
Wa Ta'ala to earn his pleasure and to
get into Jannah
until we put Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala back
at the center of our relationships.
This train is gonna only go one way.
I don't know what your thoughts are, brother
Isan. Anybody else who wants to come on,
please join the stream.
I would say with that,
I'm always about well, you have religion
and then you have its implementation and practice
which becomes culture. Yeah.
So
you would need to literally have a
understanding of Islam
in whichever country,
place you are. Mhmm.
And it seems, again, there is a failing
of adapting
the Islamic teachings to that that we're living
in now. And it it's kind of like
we're still
dizzy and dazed
from
the colonial period.
It's like, you know, like, when a cat
falls a kitten falls over and then it
shakes its head. Yeah. It's like, where am
I for a bit? That's we're still in
that phase. Yeah. You see what I mean?
If you think about it, the predominant culture
here has been the Pakistani culture Mhmm. Islam.
And their country is what? 65 years old?
So they're coming
they're coming from trauma. Right?
Right. Mhmm. But that was all trauma. They
just had to move from India to Pakistan
and all of that, and there was war,
Bangladesh, the rest of it. So even they've
had to deal with that issue of a
new identity
Mhmm. And then coming over here to a
new culture, different language, all of these there's
been there's so much issues, so much problems
of Yeah. Ingredients in this thing.
You mentioned something about, the women. What was
it you said? Sorry. What was it you
you mentioned about the women just now? Just
that we've been conditioned to to to to
expect the romantic ideal of a relationship. I
was suggesting when we go into marriage,
an advice that anyone asks me,
is that rather than look at
all the good things you're gonna get,
Look at all the bad things
and the hardships
that you have to overcome
Okay. You're getting in this relationship.
Oh. And deal with that first.
So once you look at all the problems,
what's the potential problems we're gonna have? Monetary,
you know, this, her attitude, his attitude, his
anger, this, whatever it's gonna be. Right? Mhmm.
And then once you've got that down on
the table,
then maybe you can go into this and
say, right.
Yeah. We can somehow work this out. Because
we're living in a time where
what was normally the elders, the aunties, the
uncles, the culture
dealt with,
we now have to Google and look up
psychology and sociology studies or whatever it is.
It's kind of like we're not doing
what would have been done by the the
extended family.
Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. The
culture would have taken care of all of
these other issues which we have. I mean,
me, personally,
I've kind of come back to believing
that getting married, you know, let's say a
girl who's
14 and a boy who's 16. Mhmm. And
it's literally they don't know any better.
It's it's just normal.
Yeah. It's arranged marriage,
74 so to speak. Yeah. This is the
way it's supposed to be. They don't know
anything different.
Right. I feel that's the best way now.
What I'm seeing out there, girls of 12,
13, 14, what I'm hearing about, yeah, at
school and and etcetera,
I think, you know, much better than that
is just if they was told, this is
your husband, this is your wife. That's it.
You say that, and it's a wonderful fix
all, but these kids ain't they they they
ain't about that life. That's the only problem
is they they they, you know, they've they've
been groomed already from TikTok. They've got their
type,
you know, they like this type of girl.
They like this type of guy, you know,
then I need my wife to look like
this. I need my wife to look like
my brother husband to look like that. So
it's it's it's a problem, but I agree.
I agree that,
you know, things that we
I mean, mentality wise. So
Yeah. Yeah. One one thing I've let's say
a solution for
the young gangster boys 16, 17.
One of the things that help them is
if you give them responsibility to look after
younger boys.
Ah. If you said to, let's say, 5
or 10,
boys of 16,
16, 17, etcetera Mhmm. We want you to
oversee a football match Right. With 10 year
olds or 7 year olds. Right. Yeah. That
responsibility
will give them a sense of self worth,
etcetera Agreed. When they're doing it. So so
what I'm saying what I said in relation
to the arranged marriage, I'm saying if just
the mentality
was thrown into the younger so that they
can then reflect on themselves. I mean, lots
of I don't know about the Muslim girls,
but I've I can you know, from what
I know, most of the non Muslim girls,
especially in London, by the time they're 14,
15, they're no longer so called pure. Right?
So I'm saying just that mentality alone will
make them reflect.
When you're that age looking up, it's kind
of like, well, I wanna be older so
I got more freedom.
We're maybe even upwards. But if you're looking
down, you're kinda looking back at yourself.
Mhmm. You were young just, you know, a
couple of years ago.
So
I think, it it is a slippery slope,
but, you know, I just Well, did you
know what I as you say that, I
think there's definitely something. And this is guys,
this for for those of you who are
wondering where this these revelations are coming from,
I think that
maybe
this is something that's happening more with reverts
because we came into the Deen
without the culture. Right? We, we didn't have
a Muslim culture. We came into communities where
there was this culture.
And I think a lot of us, you
know, if it wasn't
Islamic, like, purely Islamic,
it was kinda like, oh, that's dumb. You
know? Why do they do that? You know?
Ugh, DC culture, this Arab culture and everything.
But, you know, I've come to think that
some of the things that they, that have
become part of the culture in in Muslim
societies,
They help to create
the environment that allows people to continue to
practice. Right? For example,
family involvement.
As reverts,
we're just on our own team. You know,
just doing whatever we wanted to do. As
we came up like that, our parents, most
of the time didn't, you know, have that
much control over us.
Didn't really have a say in what we
did and where we went and who we
dated and all of that kind of thing.
And when we became Muslim,
a lot of us didn't involve our families
even in the process of of finding a
spouse. Right? I don't know whether that's your
experience as well, brother, but certainly the communities
that I was in,
you know, non Muslim family were not involved
in the process.
So we kind of come in, especially if
we marry other reverts and it's literally just
you 2 and your kids and maybe everyone
else in the family is not Muslim.
So then we look at Asian families who
are
extremely
involved and invested in their children's lives. Okay.
I would say, Yani, maybe.
Anyway, what works?
But my point is we would look at
that and say, oh, that's too much. You
know, that's intrusive. Like, they don't have the
right to say this. And how come they
can force you to do that? And what
do you mean they chose such and such
for you? Right?
Not realizing that
one of the reasons why and I I
I made this point before
is that there are brothers out there today
that are struggling to get married. Right? Because
for whatever reason,
they don't have what women today are looking
for. Right. They don't have the height. They
may not have the looks. They may not
have the charisma.
Okay. Maybe he's overweight. Yeah. Maybe he's just
not that pleasing in the face or whatever
the case may be. And I see those
brothers and sisters as well, actually. And I
think to myself,
a generation ago,
you would not still be single.
Your parents would have hooked you up. Like,
your parents would have found someone for you.
And we know people even of our age
group who, if they were trying to find
a spouse today,
they wouldn't get anywhere because they're not what
the market is looking for. You know, they're
not what the sisters are looking for, etcetera.
But masha'Allah, because they were part of a
system where
it's not about you and your charisma and
your looks. It's about, you know, what can
we arrange? You know? Like, who do we
know? Like, who can we bring in? You
know? What do you have to bring to
tape? You know? What kind of deal can
we make?
I I think that there is definitely something
to be said for
looking at some of those traditions and those
cultures and saying, you know, which ones have
actually helped us to to progress
and which ones are actually regressive. Does that
make sense?
But yeah.
100%. I mean,
the thing is,
we've sort of fallen it would seem for
me back in the day,
young girls and boys
were engaging in more traditional,
play times.
So let's say a girl might wanna help
Yeah. In the kitchen. Yes. Wanna help clean
and whatever. And it was still, you know,
that stereotype
of of whatever you're doing. The boys are
out here doing this to cover Yeah.
And because they've had a severe attack on
what the female is supposed to be doing
Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. I keep saying it's like
because the females are saying they're equal to
men in this culture. Yep.
They've left their own pillar, their own pivot.
Agreed. Which they used to spin
and moved it away. And now they're spinning
in so many circles around. It's just like,
well, we're supposed to be equal to you.
That means we have to keep trying to
keep up with what you're doing, and there's
so many different things, but we're also females.
And they just don't know their identity isn't
rooted
in anything
that can give them a clear line to
decide what they want to do and should
do.
It's it's I agree with you. And I
think it's the line is
about priorities.
And, those of you who have caught my
conversation with brother Nasir,
check out episode 2. It's coming out on
Saturday, candid conversations. And we talk about this,
this issue of priorities,
right?
Yes, sisters,
those of you who are out there who
are bristling a little bit, you know, we
know that sisters are more than capable
of, you know, smashing it in high school,
doing fantastically well at university,
masters, PhD, you know, running your businesses, career.
We know this. Yeah. It's been proven time
and time again.
But
as women,
and especially as Muslim women,
we need to make sure that we get
our priorities
straight
because this society
encourages us to prioritize
the things I just mentioned.
Making money, making banks, securing the bag, you
know, getting your education, being independent.
That's what society is priming you for, to
be this independent, strong woman who don't, you
know, don't need no man and all of
that.
Society is doing that. But if you're gonna
play the game and win, you need to,
like realize what your priorities as a Muslim
woman are. Deen first.
Okay? 1st and foremost before anything.
And
really looking to say, you know, why did
Allah create me?
What are my priorities? Right? What should I
be aiming for? So just like you put
time and effort into
your studies,
into your university degree and all of these
types of things, you'll find that those same
sisters, when it comes to finding a spouse,
they make hardly any effort.
Even though if you do find a good
man
and you marry him and the 2 of
you create a home together,
that's gonna be the joy of your life.
It's not the career. It's not the PhD.
It's not the accolades of the world. It
is
this piece of legacy and history and and
and and and a manner
that you've been blessed to create with this
person. And that's the thing that all these
40, 50, 60 year old feminists out there,
they've got nothing to say now.
And I no, it's true. And the, you
know, this, this conversation about, you know, women
being independent and strong, and somebody said in
the comments as well that women are outperforming
men, and the women are doing much better
than the men, etcetera, etcetera.
Those,
those messages are very cute when you're in
your twenties.
It's fantastic.
When you're in your thirties, it can also
slide because a lot of women nowadays, mashallah,
they still look very young when they're in
their thirties.
Trust and believe.
Sisters, you can, and brothers, you can write
this down and you can take me to
task on this. And I had this conversation
with my sons as well because they were
saying, mom, leave the the girls to do
what they want. Like, they're happy. They're just
they're living their best lives. Right? Like, let
them like, stop being hard on them.
And I said, listen.
The only reason I'm speaking
is because I know that this calam,
this rhetoric of strong independent woman, don't need
no man, men are trash, and secure the
bag, and get your own place, and get
your own house, and get your own car,
and have your business, and and have your
girlfriend and your girls trips and all of
that stuff.
You hit 40
and you have not secured a a marriage
and, and, and children are building a family,
they will have nothing to say to you.
Because when you hit 40,
50, 60, it's not cute anymore.
And there are no more marketing slogans. There
are there's no more dollars being pushed your
way to get you to to kind of
to, you know, to delude you from your
reality, which is that you're by yourself,
and you've missed that window.
And unfortunately, sisters, the truth of the matter
is there is a limited window,
right? You don't have forever. And if we're
gonna be smart in this world that we're
living in today, you need to look at
the ones who went before you and reflect
on their regrets.
Because for sure, there is not a single
woman or even man out there really who
on their deathbed says, I wish I'd worked
harder. We know this. That's not what we're
here to do. We're not here to build
corporate America or build, you know, like the
city of London or whatever. We are here
to 1st and foremost worship Allah. And then
we, as women, we've been tasked with this
amazing
challenge
to birth the next generation and raise the
next generation of Muslims.
You cannot do that if you are a
workhorse
and everything in your brain is revolving around
the bag, the bag, the bag, the bag,
the bag, and everything going on out there.
It's just not possible. Anyway, I'm stopping the
rant. My apologies, everyone. We've gone completely off
topic.
Can I I will respond to that? One
of the things I've noticed is
when it comes to,
the so called equality of women in the
workplace
and being independent from men,
it very much was about
having illicit relations.
So you can get your money,
get your own place,
and then you can be free to have
your so called fun
for your years.
Yeah. And
that's what that's all about. Whereas a logical
thinking
person
would think, well, you know what?
Why would I want to work?
Do you know what I mean? Why can't
if I get a partner as in a
female, she get a husband and get him
to work.
Why would you wanna have to get up
every day and go out to work and
I mean, it's only because of the the
the the the imposition
upon
females and then the stigma
of being a stay at home mom being,
well, you ain't got no sense.
You're dumb. You're this you know what I
mean? You're you're kind of useless. You're you're
not equal to the man because you're the
man.
There is that. But then there's also I
think that there is also some kind of,
community trauma,
which involves
the narrative that men cannot be trusted to
look after us.
And whether that comes from what happened in
your family or things that you saw, or
just the the the the narrative. Right?
You can never rely on a man. Mhmm.
What if he leaves you? What if he
goes and marries somebody else? Do you understand?
Like, the that is, I believe, sister Juarez
here,
says, but I believe that what you're saying
That's the reality you're saying. You're talking about
the reality. I'm saying from the perspective of
the system that implemented it and promoted it.
That's what they had in mind. Right. What
you're talking about is the experience of somebody
who's auntie and this person and that person
who said, well, my auntie, she put in
all this work. She reached 40, and then
he left her and
yeah. She got qualifications.
What can she do? Do you see what
I mean? Yep. There's a balance. I have
I I come sorry. I I don't,
regard I don't care what anybody says.
Everybody can have their own opinion on this.
Right? I don't think the answer
is to go back to a time when
women finished school at 14 or 12
and got married at 15 and had children
for the rest of their lives. I just
don't think that that is the world that
we live in.
I don't think that that is what the
dean requires of us. I think there is
a potential for a balance there where a
woman is not completely
incapable
of of of managing
herself and her home and and taking care
of certain things, and also raising children that
will be able to perform in the society
that we live in. Right? I I I
I feel that there is this kind of
tendency with certain speakers and certain people to
say, we need to just erase everything that
happened and go all the way back.
But I just think that that's unrealistic, but
Sister Jewellia is here. She's got her hand
up. Sala Lai'kha, sis. Welcome to the conversation.
Thank you. Thank you. How are you? I'm
good. Thank you.
Our first sister of the night. Yes. Wonderful.
Okay. So I want to, speak to the
brother who was talking. Listen, brother.
At this point, first of all, the financially,
sometimes the woman doesn't have the choice of
staying at home because
financially,
she has to get a job to help
out to do the bills, the skills, school.
But in today's age, we don't have that,
we don't have that choice of staying at
home and my husband will go to work.
Mhmm. Because my husband is doing 9 to
5. He's constantly 7 days a week. He
doesn't see the kids. He has no connection.
All they can see is mommy.
The as far as they know, daddy doesn't
exist. That is home. He's sick. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Because Mhmm. Then then there's no relationship between
the father and the children.
Then the mom is the constantly, she's the
between the between, she's the go between between
the parents. And sometimes you don't want I'm
sorry, but I don't want my mom to
be working 7 days a week constantly and
constantly stressed and worrying about how am I
gonna obey this, but how am I gonna
do that and not see his children.
So what's the answer for you, sis? You
think the answer is for you also to
work? Like, what's what's the plan? Yeah. The
answer is the answer is if
first of all, when you get married, you
and you
these 2 people coming together.
Mhmm. There's 2 people coming together to create
to have a life together, to build a
life together, to build family together, to have
that relationship. There will there will always be
up and downs.
There will be always there will always be
challenges. As long as you guys are a
team and can work with those challenges and
understand that sometimes
everything isn't on one person. Yeah. So, yes,
it's not on one person. Yes. If my
if you guys can afford for the for
for for the for the wife to stay
at home and the husband
can do the job and still have a
relationship with Mhmm. His children,
then, yes,
you guys can do that. But sometimes it's
not possible. And sometimes I've noticed
with lot of lot of lot of men
use
work as an excuse not to spend time
with the children.
Okay. Now this is a different situation. Right?
This is a different problem that we're talking
about. It's a problem. So let's go back
to the, to the marriage thing. At this
point, yes, as you said, sister and Emma,
we've all been Bollywood, Hollywood, like, oh, I
love you. I do this. Like, the whole
romantic, which is * for me. That's what
I'm
I never said that.
No. No. You didn't say that. You didn't
say that, but the whole, like, the whole,
like, no and, like, the marriage is like
you know how they do in the movies
and the TV shows and the books, how
they romanticize everything. You don't know from I
believe you don't know somebody until you guys
are living in a house house together, and
there's no barriers. There's no nothing when he's
throwing his dirty socks over or when she's
leaving the she has some you know, she
drank the tea, and she just put the
cup in the sink, and it bothers you.
So when you guys get on each other
nerves and be able to understand the tics,
then you then you get to know each
other. Then Right.
Together. Not the whole fairy tale. Oh, I
love you within, like, a week. Excuse me?
How can you love me? You don't even
know me.
Okay. But it's it's it's okay. But remember,
sis, I so just to jump in here.
Yeah. It's very interesting that you say that
because there is actually, a chemical, something chemical
happening in your brain. If you did marry
somebody that you're attracted to and you guys
get along, then there is there's this chemical
situation that's happening in the brain that is
the falling in love.
And you know, you have the limerence and
the lust and the infatuation and all of
that. Of course, it's short term. Yeah. But
it is like, it's a real thing, but
obviously that's not what we are building on.
Right? They're real things, but that's not what
you want to build on a foundation.
Sa. Sa. Definitely. So so my I I
want to know whether you you see the
okay. So we we're talking about
and and a very valid point. Right? Especially
in today's society where, you know, if one
income is not enough. No. Right?
For the man to be able to take
care of that and still have a life,
which is what you're referring to. Right? So
is the answer then for the woman to
start working and shoulder some of that burden?
What are you saying?
Yes. If if sometimes you might need to
shoulder the burden.
Shoulder the woman might have to shoulder, but
but going back towards back when
women's wanna get educated and they had left
after school, they didn't go to education or
what. And
okay. Sometimes it's I'm sorry, but that's not
good. How is my children can respect me
if I don't have an education to teach
them to help raise them? So because the
mom is the one who who teaches the
children beginning. Agreed. Agreed. Have the education. But
yeah. Sometimes you have to due due to
financial issues or due to one you have
to show to the burden, and the woman
might have to get some job to help
with her husband. So So then so okay.
So so okay. So I I I'm I'm
I want us to get clear on this.
So in that situation then,
do we need to bring in, like, family
members in order to kind of bear the
weight of what the children, for example?
Or are you saying that both parents can
work and sort of use, I don't know,
babysitters or childcare, etcetera, for the children? What
are you thinking? Family. Family. Okay. Family. Yes.
There are a lot of families that actually
yeah. Somalis. Yeah. Yeah. Somalis you're on that
all day long. So for sure there, there
will be family setups where the mom, the
grandmother, for example, will be happy to keep
the children while both parents are working, etcetera.
Okay. I'd like to know what everybody else
thinks of that. That's, that's, that's a very
it's something that is working and people are
making that work, aren't they? Yeah. Brother Issa,
do you have a problem with this situation
here where you've got family members that are
kind of bearing what what's your what's your
take on it? Well, yes. I mean, that's
when I was saying community and the aunties
and so on,
that was the norm.
Yes. They would come in and help look
after the children. Do you know what I
mean? They'll be out running, burning their energy
out, etcetera. They'd have so many aunties and
and even uncles to go to. Yeah. But
like I said, we're squeezed into this, you
know, the house that we just live in.
So definitely they're there as a backup, and
that's your support network. Yeah. When when she
mentioned, she said she disagree with me on
something when she came on.
I wasn't saying that the female shouldn't get
educated.
And I do think that,
the wife, if need be, should work.
But
the system is set up
so that,
relations happen in the workplace.
It is set up in that way. The
mentality of this,
the women working
is
how can I put it?
It the whole culture lends towards that way.
Are you talking about workplace affairs? Is that
the issue that you're kind of highlighting? Oh.
Oh, I see. Okay. I didn't realize that
that was that that's what we were saying.
So you're saying that the danger is that
if, you know, sisters are in the workplace,
the environment lends itself to sort of emotional
attachments and maybe even physical ones within the
workplace. Is that what you're saying? That's exactly
my point. And I think where a lot
of brothers
might have an issue with that
because we're supposed to be territorial anyway. But
I'm saying the way in which
things are set up, so many women, you
know, western women,
non Muslim women complain
about, you know, harassment in the workplace. You
would have thought by now they would have
had ways and means of saying, well, here's
the woman section and here's the male section.
But Right. They haven't.
But, yeah, this is these are are the
things which can cause issues with
that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it's
definitely not something unheard of for a couple
when they're having conversations,
like before marriage to have a conversation about
work. Right?
And I've definitely heard it being said from
a brother to say, if it's a if
it's a halal environment, like, I don't have
a problem with that. The issue is that
most of the environments are not necessarily halal
in that sense, if you're talking about no
mixing,
and of course, the things that people have
trained long and hard for typically are not
necessarily gonna be like that. But it's up
to us to make those choices. Right? And
as women, we have a responsibility here as
well. And this is something that we mentioned
on the, on the, the candid conversations show,
which is that if you are going to
invest
time, effort, and resources in getting an education,
get an education in something that you will
be able to use in a halal way.
Like for real, for real. Right? Not something
that you're kind of saying, yeah. It's for
the sake of the Ummah and da da
da. But, actually, I know I'll be able
to practice this either from home
or on my own terms or in a
Muslim environment or in a Muslim country or,
you know, like, distance or or in my
own space or whatever, so I will have
control over my working environment.
It's something to think about if you've got
the option to do that. Joao, what what's
your comeback?
Yes.
He's and a a brother is was talking
about,
at workplace and the emotion attachment. Why not?
Brother you do realize brothers also have that
issue. So it's not just the woman. It's
the fact that the brothers are in that
environment
with those women who who who are in
a mixed situation. So they can develop emotional
whatnot. They can develop whatnot. So it's not
always just the system. So it's always like
a double edged sword because the brother can
have those emotional. He can he can you
know, the the woman,
they're not trust. They can be, like you
know? So so the brothers can have that.
So it's not just the sisters. So I'll
tell you why it's different, sister. Why? The
the reason why it's different is
because let's say,
a man and a woman are both working.
Mhmm. And, you know, they come she they
both come back from work and they're having
regular intimacy at nighttime.
Mhmm. And
she becomes pregnant.
Okay.
The man never comes home pregnant.
Yeah. So the potential is, although we may
trust, I'm just saying there are circumstances in
which
she could be doing something at work, an
affair,
she comes home pregnant for someone else.
The man never comes into that house pregnant
for anyone else. He might get someone someone
pregnant out there. So I'm saying
from the man's perspective,
this is one of the most
powerful instincts that we have
in regards to possession and possessiveness over a
female.
The mate guarding?
Okay.
The mate guarding.
Yeah. Well, our offspring remember,
you know, reproduction,
is our
physical survival. Right? Our genetic survival.
Mhmm. So we're very possessive over that situation.
So if a man has you know, he
shouldn't, but if he has it out there,
it's it's away from the home.
But if a woman does it, it's, you
know, playing with his head, so to speak.
So this is one of the things and
one of the reasons why the men are
more possessive in that sense.
Okay. Listen. Okay. First of all, if a
man,
maybe a woman can get pregnant, man can't
get pregnant. But the fact that he's disrespectful
enough to do that is both of them,
she's disrespectful
enough to do that to her husband, and
he's just have to do that to his
wife. It doesn't matter if he can get
pregnant or not. He can get someone else
pregnant. And then that is he then he
has a child out there that he's basically
he's responsible for.
And not only that, now in this age,
we have some something called sexual transmitted diseases.
So if I can't trust my husband to
go to work and not do something
and later on, he comes to the house,
he might not be getting pregnant, but he's
bringing diseases to this woman whose trust is
him, who thinks it is her husband. She
doesn't need to worry about anything or health
health and health and safety because this is
her husband. He she that trust she has
in him. So when it comes to nighttime
with her, to be intimate with her, he
could give her
a clemency. He can give her some kind
of disease AIDS, anything because he doesn't know
what that woman had, but he slept with
her. And so he has he gives her
that.
That is worse than her getting pregnant with
that. Wait. Wait. Wait, guys.
Wait a minute. Wait. Stop, Toast. Wait a
second. Wait a second. Wait a second, guys.
Wow. We've gone, like, left on this topic.
We're left on that topic.
Now we're talking about
workplace
affairs and people bringing babies home and STDs.
Okay. Right.
This conversation,
this conversation
is not about,
men and women working in mixed environments, because
we know, Islamically,
that it's it's it's the the the prohibition
on mixing is for men and women across
the board. Right? But we also know that
the man is the one who has the
responsibility of earning a living that Allah is
gonna question him about. We're not in that
position, alhamdulillah.
So so that's I think why you'll find
that there is a kind of almost a
blind eye being turned to certain work environments,
right, that are not ideal,
but at the end of the day, he
has to he has to do what he
has to do. Right? Now I'm not making
excuses. I'm just saying that this is the
reality that we live in. No. No. Yes.
He has to. He he has he's the
provider. And I'm sure, and I, and I,
I think, you know, even though,
some of us would not like for our
husbands to be in an environment where there
are women around, etcetera,
at the end of the day, you know
that his imperative is to provide for the
family. And, you know, we need to support
each other in that. Right?
So Farhia.
Sorry, Jawadia. Sorry. I saw someone in the
chat who was Farhia. Sorry, Manish.
Jawadia. So we had a conversation about,
families helping,
to to to kind
of families
being available to help support,
couples that both need to work. Now I
wanna say something on this point. Right? And
this is something that I need the women
of my generation and the one coming up
to to to to pay attention to. Right?
Because a lot of the structures that we
need
as community,
right,
women, especially women. I'm gonna talk more about
women on this. Right? Because especially as women,
you know what it's like, sis. We lean
on each other. Your mother, your sister, your
aunties, we we need them. It's like brother
Issa was saying about, you know, that village.
Right? They're taking a village to raise a
child
When you've had a baby, for example, don't
we need our mom with us? Don't we
need our aunties? Don't we need, like, people
to come and bring food, etcetera?
And also when our parents become elderly, right,
they need usually, like, their daughters or their
daughters in law. Now
one of the problems
that we will, I'm sure, start to see,
and I think we are already seeing,
is that when all the women are working
because of economic situations, because of everything, whatever
she studied for this, you know,
those social and community roles can we can't
play those roles anymore.
Right? So my mother may need a carer,
but I've got a job. You know, I,
I, I can't take time off to look
after my mom. So that's why I believe
in the next few years we will see
more Muslims in in, in, all people's homes,
because
we're
we're basically trading
the the woman power
that traditionally would be keeping the community
working, right? We're trading that
for work power. So we're we're trading, you
know, the the skills that we had as
women, where for example, a sister is ill,
we would cook and we would send it
to her, right? If everyone's working and everyone's
stressed and they've got the 9 to 5
and they've got their kids, who's got time
to cook? Who's got time to even cook
for their own families, let alone cook and
send to their sister? You know what I'm
saying? So those
community bonds that we've taken for granted for
very long time, if if we're not careful,
we're gonna lose all of that. And our
daughters will grow up not even seeing that.
So they the so the whole thing just
becomes lost. I know we're kind of going
off on a tangent here. But, sister Joanne,
what are your thoughts on the divorce topic
before we wrap this up? Because it's been
a good one, but what about the stigma?
Should we have more stigma, less stigma? And
are you Somali sis?
Yes. I'm Somali. Yes. Talk to me about
divorce in the Somali community. We had a
brother on here before, masha'Allah, who had some
interesting views. What do you say about it
all?
Somali divorce is very, very quick quick sometimes.
Right? I
I was in Somalia a few and a
a year back or so, and I was
speaking to this girl. She was so young.
She's like, oh,
and she wanted to get married. And I
was like, honey, you you're still you're not
even puberty. Relax.
Oh.
And then she's like, yeah. But you know
you're so I was like, do you even
know what you I was like, do you
even know what marriage is? And she said,
she's like, oh, you don't you don't need
to worry about that. You get married to
him. If you guys don't like you get
divorced, then you go married. I don't want
to go to married and all that. Wow.
Oh, no.
Wow. You. Look at these kids. That is
not what they want. Wow.
Because no. It's yeah. So in Somalia, it
became very, very, very easy. Like, literally quick
quick. And what what impact does that have?
Because, you see, one of the things that's
interesting to me then,
in a society or a community
where divorce is very easy, right,
does that mean that there is no stigma
and that that girl who's maybe been married
twice, and she's maybe 1920,
she's already married twice, and she can marry
someone else. It's not a problem. I think
she's been married three times now, and she's
got different kids with different
And will she will she still find a
husband? Like, it's not a big deal. People
don't mind? Yeah. It's very easy. So I
think it's because, yeah, it's it's very easy
for them to get married and very easy.
Like, the as in a as a divorcee,
there's no stigma to it. Right. But it
does affect the children, and sometimes
the, the kids end up with their grandparents.
Oh. You know? Yeah. Sometimes
and, like, she she will
back home somebody, there's parents, and then thankfully,
we have a community to help you raise
the children. Yeah. If the husband is not
involved or you guys got divorced for whatever
reason. Right.
But but, yeah, but they they became very
part of the norm. So there's no stigma,
you know, divorcee.
Interesting. It's very quick to get married. Very
quick.
So easy come, easy go kind of thing.
Basically. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Well, do you know what, sis?
Listen. I I I see the same happening
in in that I see the same happening
here in the West because we've got so
many more people who are prepared to kind
of have more like a short term marriage
or like just get married and see how
it goes. And I think the statistically,
So I guess we may get to a
stage where it's just not a big deal
anymore. Sis has been married 6 times. Oh,
well, Yanny, this might not work either, but
hey, miss Miller, let's go.
Yeah. But what about the children?
That is the issue that I don't have
an answer for, sis. You're 100% right to
pick up on it. I don't have an
answer for that. What do you think? Very
easy as an adult. You you can get
divorced. Okay. Get married. But your children
your children will now have a new man,
a new mom. And so is is a
whole how's that how's that gonna work with
their dad when he can visit? It's a.
It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a.
I think when it comes to adults. Right?
Yes.
1 I agree with you 100%. So so
we'll have another stream to talk about that
specifically because it's such a big big issue.
And I think that we can probably all
agree that, look, you know, consenting adults,
hey, do whatever works for you, but once
children are involved, I just think we we
have to move differently.
Because as you said, the impacts on them,
not only losing their birth parent,
but also now having to be, you know,
raised by just one parent, but also any
subsequent
men that come in, women that come in,
stepmothers, stepfathers,
stepsiblings
on either side.
You know, and and just the mahram issues
as well. Right? Because step siblings are not
mahram to each other, so that is a
cause for concern.
And then you imagine a sister who's maybe
been married 3 or 4 times,
if her children have seen men coming in
and out, or 4 different men,
whether it's her daughters or her sons.
I don't know. I think that there's something
must happen there because
I don't know. What do you think? And
it also teaches the children that marriage has
no value.
That's the one thing I I one thing
I'm very,
when it comes to divorce, I'm like, if
we get quick divorce as easily as that,
then marriage has no value. Because marriage, Islamically,
is is it has a is a bigger
manner. It's also when you have children that,
Allah, you know, gave you that manner for
you to take care of. But Yeah. When,
like, what people get, like, when people people
get married, they don't think they don't they
don't think, like, yes. How hard? Some isn't
there's gonna be challenges. Marriage is not easy
because there's always be challenges. Whatever is your
in laws, whatever is you and your husband,
your wife are having issues,
whatever is. As as long as you guys
can talk it and work and put in
the work and put in effort, then you
get but you guys don't want to do
that. Yeah. Yes. Sometimes you might need to
divorce might be the best option for you
and your children because I have seen marriages
where it became really toxic. Yeah.
Then you just became the parents who constantly
fight and the kids were in there and
they were just It's it's just you know
what? I agree with you, but I just
think, like, as adults in this situation, as
the adults in this situation,
like, this is this is why I think
one of what one of the reasons why
brother Nasr and I are doing these candid
conversations and focusing on emotions and emotional regulation
is that if all of us could be
more in control of our emotions
and be more
strategic and mindful of.
These types of these situations would would would,
deescalate. Do you know what I mean? Is
that when people are just, like, out of
control
and they're hurt and they're angry and their
their their ego and they're reacting and everything
is just like heightened emotion
and very much about me, about me, and
how I feel. And I'm angry with you,
and you're at this, and you're at that,
and effing this. Like
Yeah. It's like we we we find it
easy to feel Allah on the street and
in the masjid, but when it comes to
our spouse, it's
it's, you know, it's gloves off. You know?
I'm a tell you as it is. I'm
a give it to you. You know? It's
tough for.
And sometimes children hear that. Sometimes children sometimes
children hear that. And you're like and one
of the things is, like, for,
I feel like if you guys gave each
other time sometimes when you have kids, you
get busy with the kids. You get busy
with the work. You get busy with the
household, whatever. So you don't have time for
you and your husband as a wife and
a husband. There's always mom and dad, auntie,
this. So you spend so much time on
other people and other things that you guys
lost the connection you had as a married
couple. Wow. So Yep. You you guys sometimes
need to take a time out just for
you. Yeah. For you, your wife, and you
and your husband, just to take even if
it's just if you need to drop off
the kids at a friend's house to sleep
over or your mom's or whatnot, just to
take your mom, just to be. Just to
be. People, you know, so many brothers and
sisters, as I said earlier in the stream.
Right? They don't have any any activity that
connects them as a couple. You know? Yeah.
And I I have some friends of mine
who, like, they've never gone out just the
2 of them in the last 10, 12
years. I know. I your kids are big.
Like, what do you mean? It's not even
like you've got babies. These are big kids.
What are you doing? I just wanna say
a big shout out to the super chat
that came in. JazakAllah Khayron.
Never been getting super chats. Mashallah. Thank you
so much, Dakota, for the 1999
super chat. We appreciate you Mashallah.
Okay. We've got Jueva, that's been so good.
Our brother sultan is back in the room.
Brother sultan, what what are you what do
you have to say about this? What are
your thoughts? I don't know if you're up
enough, but there's one thing that, I think
is really important to keep in mind, for
people who are contemplating
this
is, the hadith about the
the throne of shaytan in the sea
and how he sends, people out.
And one of the
most beloved sort of people,
of of of his followers that he loves
is the one that separates
men and women. So,
don't don't let him win. That's all I'm
saying.
Yeah. No. No. 100% brother. Because definitely, like,
divorce is a big win for Shaitan. Shaitan
loves and appreciates the shayateen that that split
the husband and the wife, and he gives
them the the most props, SubhanAllah.
Sister Nadeem, I just thought of one thing.
This is for my sisters.
If you're having problem with your husband,
do not share it with your friends.
Big word there. Truth. Big word. Big word.
Your
friends,
like,
you let's say you're having a you're really
angry with your has your husband and you're
like Yeah. You're frustrated with him. For whatever
reason, do not go out and send it
to your son your your your girls.
Because they're like, oh, he's this. He's this.
They're not gonna say, oh, you know what?
Maybe you did you're not looking at like
this. Yeah. Maybe, you know, calm down and
rethink. Yeah. They're gonna hype you up. They're
gonna be This is what I was saying
about the hype crew. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then
you you might end up divorced and they're
like, oh, I didn't tell you that. I
didn't tell you to get divorced.
Yeah. It's true. And another thing, sister, can
I just add to that as well, is
that try, if you can, to maintain the
company of
married women who are, like, in stable relationships?
Don't you think that that's important?
Yes. That's important. Then
maybe if maybe, like, let's say, you in
a a this this lady's married woman's even
sometimes some of them who'd be married longer
than you, they might have advice for you.
Like, you know what? Don't don't rush. Just
do this. And, like, you know, talk to
him. Try this. Yes. So they have experience.
They went through the trials. They actually been
there. So they were but if you go
to your single single moms I mean, single
single, friends or, you know And single moms
as well. Single moms. They're not good either.
Yep. They're not gonna tell you. They're gonna
be like, oh, kick his *. Take get
rid of him. He's not good for you.
He's lazy. He's not helping you. And he's
like Yeah.
I hear a lot of things. Like, a
lot of a lot of a lot of
oh, he doesn't help around house. He doesn't
around help around the kids. He doesn't do
that. And I'm like, sometimes, he's been out
working all day. He's tired. Give him a
chance. Cut the guy some slack. Get it
cut the guy some slack. Because when if
you kick him out
You're doing everything by yourself.
And, and that means everything.
Everything, guys, everything. So let's not like hype
up the, you know, we talked about this
already, right? Hype up the idea of, oh,
Alhamdulillah, I'm free of him, Yani. Yeah.
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. I just wanna just
address one thing. A sister asked in the
chat,
she said, what do you mean stepsiblings are
non mahram for each other?
I mean exactly that. Okay? If you marry
a man who has children
and you have children,
those children are not mahram to each other,
the boys and the girls. They can marry.
Okay? So just be aware of that. Alright?
The stepfather
is mahram to the girls, your daughters.
And you,
his boys will be mahram to you. You
can't marry them. But your children
that you have individually,
they are not mahrams to each other. So
you have to kind of bear that in
mind as well. And yeah, it's it's it's
it can be an issue inshaAllah.
Okay guys.
Listen, it was wonderful. I really enjoyed this
stream. It was my first time doing it.
I want to thank everybody who came on
live. Unfortunately,
we they couldn't see you in, in YouTube.
So if you watch the YouTube video, guys,
you're just gonna see me the whole time.
I don't know why. I will need to
sort that out inshallah from the tech side.
But alhamdulillah,
I think we had a good conversation. I
think some good stuff came out of it.
I wanna thank everyone who came on the
stream.
And Alhamdulillah,
the internet was okay.
And if the internet's okay, then, you know,
mashallah, I'm I'm not complaining. So thank you
everybody. We really appreciate you.
Make sure that you tune in,
on
Friday
because we're going to be doing a live
reaction We're
gonna
We're gonna be doing a live reaction to
those, and you'll be able to come on
the livestream and give your thoughts on the
advice that I gave to sisters about, you
know, raising their standards and about, you know,
single women. Do you really need a man?
If you've seen those videos, then you know
what I'm talking about, Insha'Allah.
So please do join us on Friday night.
We're gonna be live here, and please do
share this stream with, with other people if
you found that it was useful. Hit the
like button, guys. And if you're not subscribers,
then make sure that you subscribe. And I'll
see you again soon, inshaAllah. Jazakumalahu
Khayr. Have a fantastic evening, and we'll see
you on the other side. We're out. Assalamu
Alaikum Warahmatullahi wa salaam wa