Naima B. Robert – Muslims, Marriage, Red Pill, Feminism and the Seerah MUST WATCH TMC Ep. 7 Part Two
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The speakers discuss the importance of money and the desire for a marriage, emphasizing the need for balance between happiness and retirement. They stress the importance of boundaries and setting boundaries for men in their roles. They also discuss the importance of education and finding support and finding ways to live successful. The speakers stress the need for a balance between one's own and his partner's needs and encourage others to use their knowledge to make sense of the d flying d flying d flying d flying d flying d.
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Have as many kids as you possibly can.
Manufacture them like a factory. Because
no. Because
the true happiness comes when you see the
fruits of your labor.
Okay. Think about it. If you have 1
child in the marriage or 2 children,
that's an accomplishment in of itself, and you've
done very well. But no one can tell
me that's better than having 10
and having a whole.
Imagine your imagine your
you love 10 children.
I'm laughing. I'm laughing. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen.
No one can challenge me on this one.
Not a single person can challenge me on
this one. If you have 10 children,
now you're 60, 70 years old, and you
look down at Eid,
and it's literally an ummah
of 10 months with their husband and wife,
and their 10 children each, 100 people,
you cannot tell me there is satisfaction that
you did something.
I don't care what you say. And that's
something everyone can achieve, rich or poor. That
is your contribution to the ummah. At the
very least, you fulfilled what the messenger of
Allah subhanahu wa sallam has asked for, which
is the the largest of Ummah.
They can compete with the other Ummah
at the very least. No one could tell
me that. And at the and you can
say, even as a backup, imagine doesn't go
as to plan. At least 1 or 2
of the kids might care for you. Out
of the 10. Out of the 10. Out
of the 10. It's okay. Hey. What's that?
20% twenty percent ratio. 20%
success rate. Maybe you can grant us the
very best. You've literally distributed
your your care
when you're old and you can't move to
10 separate people. They don't have to be
there all the time. That's true. Some could
just do something. You've you've lightened the load
Yes. Off of them for your effort. I'm
telling you I'm telling you, if you invest
in your children,
that is the greatest investment
for a marriage. That is the best thing
you can do for marriage. Forget the money.
Money is great. Money is important. Money is
very important.
But I don't think it's more important than
children.
Hence, what Allah said,
Don't kill your children out of fear of
poverty. We provide for you and them.
And another another another aya, we provide for
them and you.
So
Allah is clearly saying to you,
money is not a fact when it comes
to children. If you bring it as a
factor,
your your your you're not you're missing the
point.
Allah will provide for you. Allah will bring
it forward for you. Just do your bit.
Marriage,
children,
have an obscene amount of children up until
Wow. And up until literally,
medically, you can't even do it anymore. Can
no more. And and then then you say,
I've
done my bit. I've done so many. Do
the hunt now you can do the honeymoon
thing, and you can you can relax with
your husband and go holidays when you're in
your fifties or sixties and whatnot. But before
that, you have a job to do. I
know it's I know it's people don't wanna
hear that, and then there's 2 or 3
kids, but no.
No.
No.
I mean, come on. It's it's it's never
been that way. I mean
I mean, your grandparents, how many kids did
they have? I'm sure they had, like,
more than 5. Everyone has grand grandparents, great
grandparents. My grandmother was one of well, was
one of
12.
Yeah.
Yeah. No. I I I hear what you're
saying. Obviously,
I'm just,
I'm I'm
yeah. It's not it's not really See, the
thing is not really worthy of the gram.
You know? It's nice. It's it's not, but
it's not flexed. You know what I mean?
Now listen. Everyone's always talking about talking about
let's stick to the way of the seller.
Oh,
April the card. Oh, darn.
Up until that moment. Up until comes to
number of kids. No. B set of fee,
even number of children you have. How many
kids they have?
A whole leap. As many as possible. Okay.
So okay. So how about this? How about
this?
Polygyny,
polygamy. Mhmm. Mhmm. 1 wife, 2 wives, 3
wives, 4 wives.
Spread the 10 kids amongst them. You know?
So each one's got, like, maybe 3 each,
and then now we've got, like, 12. Is
is that also an efficient strategy or no?
If if someone if someone, is interested in
polygamy and they can handle that and when
I say handle, I don't mean just financially,
even emotionally and whatnot.
Then I think a good strategy will be
maybe to have 8 to 10 each.
That's your.
That's your work done. No. No. No reason
I say that is because, like I said,
it's not again, if you'd said spread it
out, then then that's that's looking at it
as what he
wants. How about what she wants?
And when I say what she wants, I
don't mean what she wants now because that
if I sit to a woman if I
sit to a woman, you're going to carry
a child for 9 months. You're gonna go
through labor.
You're gonna have you're gonna suckle that child
for up to 2 years. Change nappy, and
you're gonna do that 9 times.
I'm I'm sure no one will say, yeah.
Sign me up. Let's let's let's do this.
No. No. It's not it's not that kind
of thing. But that's the thing. That's not
how Muslims think. We don't think, oh, because
it's difficult, we don't do it.
We need to start thinking of because it's
difficult. Maybe there's a maybe there's a reason
why it's difficult. Maybe there's a a great
reward in doing that. It's often that the
things that reward you the most are that
which is more difficult.
So I'm telling you, I cannot imagine. And
no one could I cannot no one could
challenge me in this one. No one could
challenge me in this one at all. They
could challenge me a lot of things, but
they can't challenge me in this one. No
one could tell me if Omar had Sabar
9 times with 9 kids that after they
have now
grown up,
and they love her, and they respect her,
and they give her all that she needs,
she's gonna ever regret that. Never ever ever
That's true. No one try to be that
one. No. No. No. That's true. I agree
with you. I agree with you. I would
probably You come to Islam. Islam is about
delayed gratification.
You delay
the gratification, the reward later on. I mean,
where's Jannah?
Jannah is about delayed gratification.
We're working our whole lives
for a reward. Not only have we haven't
even seen.
No one's seen it before. But we know
it's there. We know it's coming, which is
the way you have Sabaoth. Same thing with
children. You struggle.
It's difficult. You gotta pay for them, education,
all that kind of stuff.
But, eventually,
it will pay off.
Yeah. And no and no one no one
tells me that one. No. No. No. No.
I I think, definitely, if you press anybody
and you look at it with that long
term view,
for sure. Like, there is there is
there is nothing else at the end of
everything, you know? All the the the work,
the career, the degrees, the social media, the
friends, and all of that. In the end,
when you're 60, 70, 80, it's really your
family that brings you joy, isn't it? Your
family seeing your children grow up, seeing them
pair up, seeing them have their own children.
That is where the joy is. That is
the retirement.
People are talking about retirement and this fund
and that fund and this company are gonna
give me retire. No. No.
No. Your retirement is your children.
If if people don't recognize that your retirement
is your children, they've missed the point. Anyone
who thinks that their retirement is their retirement
fund, not their children, they have lost the
plots. They have missed the message, and they're
gonna find that at some point.
We need to start changing our perspective, changing
our frame.
It's not what I want to give you.
It's what you want me to give you.
Mhmm.
And part of that discovery is part of
the marriage. Learning who they are, learning what
they like, and trying to give them what
they like. Even if it's something that you
don't like,
just learn to give them what they like.
You know? For example, let one one quick
example. Imagine
imagine you like meatballs and eggs. And imagine
he likes biryani.
And you have a choice today to make
meatballs and egg or biryani.
But a marriage decision would be like, I'm
gonna make this
for him because I know he likes it.
That's a decision that you that you one
could make. That is not for your own
benefit, but for his benefit.
Which benefits you in the end?
Which benefits you in the end? Or, likewise
It's a win win. A husband.
He can, after work,
meet his mates and chill out for a
couple of hours Mhmm. Or come straight home
to his wife and chill out with her.
Yeah. He knows which one she would prefer.
He can make a decision.
Today,
I'm gonna not only gonna go home rather
than go to my friend my friend's friend's
house. I'm gonna buy something nice for her
as well.
Why am I doing that? Because she likes
it. Not because I like it.
Because she likes it. And the joke is
when she is happy and elated and over
the moon,
you be elated over the moon because
that is that is essentially the indirect reward
you get. When your wife is happy, you're
happy. When she's sad, you're sad.
And vice versa. Do you think it's vice
versa, or do you believe in happy wife,
happy life?
I mean, I do I I I in
some ways, I do simple I do understand
what Laura Doris was saying because she was
saying that if the wife is happy
in the house Mhmm. That would infect everyone
else with the happiness. Agree with that. I
agree with that. Whereas if she's upset,
she would infect everyone else with her bitterness.
I mean,
it's possible that she'd be really ups happy
and elated, and the house is still in
a mess, upset, if possible. But generally speaking,
I think men are are are very simple
and pickle.
If she's happy, he'll be over the moon.
Let's just just if he's happy, peaceful house,
he's happy. Nothing more. I I that's how
I I I am. I'm talking about most
men now. I don't think it's it's much
different than that. But I guess the question
is, okay, how does she get happy? And
that's kind of what Loredoll translation. She was
saying that these are things you can do
to make yourself happy. And then when you
are happy Mhmm. That would affect the situation.
From those things you mentioned is self care,
looking after yourself,
finding happiness in in your environment and what's
around you and whatnot. I mean, there are
many things that can be said. But,
but,
Yeah. I mean,
that's that's that's that's to say that. 1
one needs to change their frame and start
looking at what others want,
and that's it. It's impossible with what they
their desires on it.
SubhanAllah.
As you're saying this, I'm
I'm I'm thinking of
the
I'm uncomfortable.
I'm uncomfortable.
Sounds crazy. I'm uncomfortable with happy wife, happy
life
if it's at the expense
of the man.
And, again, this this is very much a
red pill conversation, right, where the whole kind
of beta male providers or beta ization by
a 1,000 cuts or a 1,000 concessions, where
the man
basically
breaks himself down in order to
to raise up the woman and to please
her
to the detriment of himself. So he gives
up his hobbies, gives up his friends, works
like a dog, you know,
puts up with, you know, dead bedroom, all
of that stuff, as long as she's happy.
Do you think that that's a legitimate
complaint, or do you think, look, just suck
it up. This is marriage. That's No. It
it is again, it's it's starting with framing,
number 1. And like I said,
some situations can be framed in so many
different ways. For sure. Agreed.
And
how you
how you view,
your behavior
can change how you feel about the outcome.
So I'll give you example, and and give
the give the extreme example.
So a man is on the street,
and some woman's raising her voice, swearing her
aim, spitting her aim, being obnoxious or whatnot.
He has his full power to give a
punch around her nose and and and end
the whole discussion.
And he decides, you know what?
I'm I'm not gonna go down that route.
I'm not gonna drag myself down to her
level. I'm gonna just keep on walking and
and not not entertain that conversation.
Okay. Now he could walk away from that
and think, you know what? That was so
beta.
How can I let her talk to me
like that? I mean,
who am I? I mean, am I am
I some kind of simp? Am I some
kind of punk that let this woman just
treat me this way? Mhmm. And that will
make him depressed for what he did. Mhmm.
Whereas he can frame it differently. Say, you
know, I know the hadith, mister Allah, the
one who controls his act his anger is
is the greater person and all the reward
for for the one who turns it from
a argument even though he was correct and
and
and see himself as the better person and
walk away
happy. This his actions didn't change. Yeah. Yeah.
His actions had not changed. Mhmm. But his
his framing of the action
completely changed. Right. Now I say that
whilst acknowledging
that what you mentioned is true. I've I've
seen, in my own two eyes,
destroyed men.
Wow. I mean Destroyed men and then he
laughs. What what is this? What's happening here?
As in and there's one scenario.
Assistant and her husband came to our center
for enrollment to enroll their child. This happened
long time ago, so I'm like to mention
it because not happened recently. It happened, like,
almost a decade ago.
And
everything everyone else everything I was saying, I
was talking she was answering. She was talking.
Everything I saw and he's seen his face
almost like
That expression.
That destruction of that that that that
complete emasculation of his of his, like, I
said, bro, are you happy? And, like,
almost as if to say, me when I
ask him, are you happy? She's answering for
him. That kind of complete dominance.
Right. And that complete collapse of that that
of that maleness, that that can happen. That
can definitely happen.
And I do feel
that if a man,
is in that state, then he should find
a way to get out of it. Because
what will happen
is that will be destructive for him in
the end and also the family. Meaning,
if a man consent continues at the in
that state.
So let me let me frame it from
the beginning. Let's start from the beginning. Why
do I think this is destructive?
Because
1 or 2 things will happen.
Either 1, he will
bottle his feelings,
will wrap will put in the bottle, put
lid on it,
close it tight,
and leave it in there
until either it blows
Mhmm. Or or or worse. When it's needed
to be there, it won't be there.
And this is this is this is the
the the the the the part I think
is is the issue.
A person can bottle up their feelings, but
there are times when that dominance
is necessary. Where that leadership not dominant. The
word dominance is the wrong word. Yeah. Where
that leadership is necessary. The the key word
is leadership. Where that leadership is necessary.
But because he's bottled it up, he can't
he can't manifest
it. Yeah. And the problem is the problem
the problem he will find the problem he
will find is that
as as time goes on, as life goes
on,
certain outcomes will occur
that he fundamentally would take responsibility for as
the man.
But he essentially, it wasn't his fault in
the sense that he didn't I mean, it
is his fault not not not putting his
foot down. But Yeah. It wasn't his decision
as in may maybe the family decides let's
just say this example of Hijra. Let's take
example of Hijra. He wants to make Hijra
to to Somalia
to live a better life and with the
Muslim in. She says, no. I wanna stay
in the country.
He bottled it up. He said, okay. I'll
I'll I'll be happy.
5 years later, 10 years later, kids are
grown up. Kids are off the rails because
they're in the society.
Baldwin and Kufar because he didn't put his
foot down.
That and and he will recognize this. He
might not say it, but he'll recognize if
only I put my foot down,
it wouldn't have happened that way. And that
will eat away at him
emotionally. I don't know how you do that.
So that's something that that that you a
man needs to
he he needs to what's the best way
best way to put it will be, he
needs to understand his role as a husband,
as a leader,
and he needs to he needs to enact
that leadership.
But being a leader
doesn't equate to being a simp
in in that terminology. Meaning meaning, you can
do things
for others Yeah. And prioritize others over yourself
and still be a leader. Yes. 100%. And
I think this is the this is this
is the line, the fine line that that
that feminist and a red pill don't understand
as much. They think that you have to
be a leader. You have to boss people
around. You have to do what I wanna
do, and you can't say what I am.
You have to both be alphas, basically. You
have to both be alpha males. The feminists
want you to be an alpha male, and
the red pill want you to be an
alpha male. Like, everybody's gonna be an alpha.
Everybody's gonna be an yeah. Yeah. Even this
idea of being an alpha male. I mean,
it's it's I mean, it's it's exaggeration. It's
it's the it's that it's the opposite side
of what I'm saying. See, but hold something
up. Yeah. You let something there, increase the
pressure. Now you're exploding onto the scene as
a alpha male.
Well, that's that's that's literally like like like
I'm saying, that's literally an explosion of emotion,
uncontrolled emotion and behavior. There's nothing wrong.
May I just say as well that all
those feelings that have been bottled up and
the resentments, if you imagine, you know, the
blame, the guilt, the blame, the resentment, the
anger, the hate sometimes, it's all been bottled
up festering.
So when it comes out later, it's not
gonna come out the way it was 5,
10 years ago. It's gonna come out really
vile.
That is actually a keyword actually. The it
didn't require to mention it, but that is
the key point here.
When you bottle things up,
you can, and most likely, grow resentment.
And resentment,
if if it lands in the heart, is
very difficult to remove. This takes a very
long time. Yeah. It and the reason it
takes long time is because, essentially,
resentment
is a symptom of abuse.
Something people don't recognize. They think abuse is
just, you know, I got punched up. No.
Abuse could just simply mean
every time I wanna speak, I get shut
down.
That, for a man,
can
easily manifest as being abuse. I can't manifest
my own view. I can't say what I
wanna do. I can't do that is abuse.
Whether whether we acknowledge it or not, it
is actually abuse. Abuse in the sense that
he can't fulfill the role
that Allah has given him. You've robbed him
of that role. You've taken that away from
him. And there's literally not and that's that's
why you find out the.
They are framing because this is your frame.
They are framing the marriage
as though as the as women are just
money extractors. Yes. They're just there to be
the bank account. Yes. Because they've been robbed
of the of the of the leadership role.
And that's all I am. I can't say
where we live. I can't say what we
do. I have no I can't all I
do is go to work, come home, I
give you a check. Basically.
Yeah. And you know the example you gave
earlier, because I have very strong views on
simping. Very, very strong views on simping, but
we can talk about that another time.
But that situation in the street with the
woman shouting and basically going off the rails
and the man making a decision to not
engage and to walk away, I agree with
you that his framing of what he did
and his motivation really for why he did
that will change whether he feels great about
himself or he feels really terrible. What I
would say is if that was my son,
I would want to be sure that he
spoke to her about it afterwards
and that you dealt with that situation because
that behavior is unacceptable.
So if you allow because we we say
this, you know, when we're coaching women,
you know, people and they say this in
in in I mean, it's it's a thing.
People will treat you
as badly as you allow them to treat
you. Right? And you train other people how
to treat you by what you accept. So
I think a part of, you know, you
know, a part of
that leadership role and that masculinity
is setting boundaries. But I think it's a
human thing. I think human beings need to
set boundaries. Right? But as a man, there
is a sense that look at the end
of the day,
I, I've been given this responsibility by Allah
Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. Okay?
And which is very different to the whole
alpha male conversation. This is, this is a
responsibility that has been given to me by
Allah SWANNAWA. You chose me
to be your husband
and you chose me to lead this family
and give me space to lead.
Give me space to lead because otherwise it's
not gonna work, you know. And and I
think we as women, certainly our generation and
maybe the younger generations coming up,
need to
relearn
what it means
to have male authority. Because really, male authority
is the big, big bad wolf when it
comes to, you know, the the kind of
more feminist leaning society that we live in.
You'll have Muslim sisters talking about the patriarchy,
talking about misogyny, talking about male authority being
oppressive, etcetera. And I'm
like, oh, okay.
How are you making that work within an
Islamic framework? You know? And how is that
gonna show up in your marriage?
Yeah.
I mean,
the the the sad thing is and this
is why I always hire people about the
the that all Muslims, every single Muslim, especially
living in the west,
needs to seriously
think about and even plan towards Hijala
because
we don't recognize
the full extent
of how society is affecting us.
And our our discussion right here Mhmm. Is
a result of this. Mhmm. So
the whole frame
for example I'll make an example.
A lot of Magtal and even Red Bull
sometimes, but Magtal more more specifically. They love
to focus on how this woman does get
what she wants. She goes to divorce and
cleans him out half of his wealth, if
not more of his wealth, that kind of
stuff. And
that is and in that statement, in that
conversation,
men resonate with that because they see it
or they experience it or they it's not
all that experience it.
But if you look at the the the
problem here,
is it because the and so the and
rank Mangkhart, they associate that being women. This
is how women are. This is this is
a woman thing. Hypergamy or whatever the case
whatever they wanna explain to me, this is
how women are. But what they fail to
recognize
is that this is only
because the society allows that to happen. Yeah.
As in a human being I mean, hadith
I I I just mentioned this he said
it later. There's another one of us that
The hadith and mister actually clarifies the human
nature in this regards.
He said,
if it was down to the
the the the intention if it was down
to the will the whims and wills of
people Mhmm. Then they would claim
the blood of others and their wealth. Mhmm.
But instead,
the claimant the onus of proof is upon
the claimant and
the the
is on the defendant.
That that what the hadith says or the
the hadith has always used to establish the
baseline for judgment.
If you're gonna make a claim, you have
evidence.
Otherwise,
we don't we we don't assume the person
is guilty
until proven innocent. It's innocent to prove guilty.
Yeah. What is often, overlooked in that hadith
was the nature of people.
They will take as much as they can
take. Mhmm. Mhmm. So if the law allows
a woman to just take what she wants
Mhmm. It she doesn't have she doesn't have
to be a feminist to do so. It's
available to her. It's a human thing.
It's it's available. I can get it. I'm
gonna get it. And I think I think
you'll I agree with you. It's definitely I
mean, this is one of the the the
rebuttals
in part to the red pill praxeology and
the the frame, the red pill frame. I
think frame is probably the best way to
say it. It is a red pill frame.
It's red pill lens,
is that it is
very much a an ethnos there is an
ethnocentric bias. Right? It is based on Western
society, on sort of where we are now
in Western society.
The gynocentricism
in the system and, you know, what's happening
with men, what's happening with women, the the
role of the family, and all of that
is very, very much Western. However,
I think one of the reasons why, unfortunately,
that lens is making sense to men and
women
abroad is because that western culture is being
exported
and and is being exported and is being
picked up, especially, I think especially the feminist
angle,
and and maybe anti family as well through
the movies, through Netflix,
on social media, you know, and and movements
within those countries
to actually transform those countries to become more
modern, so called modern, more western. Feminist thing.
The exporting of the feminist thing. I can't
speak for women abroad or women entirely. I
can only speculate
as to what what will be the appeal
of feminism.
And the only thing I can think of
is
you women go to school. They are they
get education.
And the norm
the assumption will be that you would want
to build them whatever you've learned upon. You
build them whatever you've you've you've you've spent
years
Yeah. At home in your craft.
And you're telling me that I must be
at home and do nothing. I mean, I've
had women say to me is I wanna
be more than a mother. And I and
I and I and I and I think
to myself,
but what's more than that, though? I mean
Listen. Have those 10 kids. You won't be
talking about being more than no mother. Okay?
Yeah. That you will be your cup will
be full with those 10 children being a
mother to them. But it's it's part of
the education. It is part of the education.
It's part of what we learn growing up,
like you said. And everyone's learning the same
thing now. So But also, I think and
also add add to that, I think it's
a lack of appreciation
of what's what we have.
Meaning, if you had a family Mhmm. Loads
of siblings,
strong eat is like a massive thing every
single year. Yeah. You don't recognize that as
being such an important thing because it's always
been there. You've never probably never lived a
life where you never had that. True. I
mean, I grew up in a very small
family. Me, my sister,
a few aunties here, lot of my family
either in Jamaica or in America. It was
small amount. So Christmas was like it was
it was no more than, like, 6 people,
7 people. Wow. Fast forward for 8 20
years. Now we eat.
I kid you not my my me, my
wife, my 8 kids,
and her siblings,
and their wives, and their kids. Our Eve
exceeds easily 30 nuffs, 30
people on immediate family, not even extended. Wow.
So
this
this I and I appreciate this. I understand
this because I grew up not having that.
Yeah. I can understand in east in Muslim
countries, maybe they don't reckon they think they
think they can adopt
they think they can adopt
western ideals whilst keeping what they have, not
realizing.
Those ideals break what they have. Yes.
Yes. Which is why I think that in
countries like Saudi, there's there's there's a growing
trend of
where women are Korean women, they're moving forward,
they haven't had kids, now they're willing to
be second wife's, but waive all their rights
as being a wife.
The question is, how did she get there?
How did you get to that whole discussion
of? Missi Alipa? Forget the fact that Missi
Alipa been allowed or not allowed. How did
the woman get to the stage where she's
wavering her god given rights
that Allah has placed in the family in
order to balance the relationship with the family?
Why
how did she get here? Because she prioritized
something else. Yeah.
So I can I can see the appeal,
I guess, of feminism? And I guess and
that's what I said. That somebody was really
to recognize that the appeal of feminism,
I guess, is similar to the appeal of
red pill. There are factors in our environment
that need us down that road. There's not
down that road. Not only that, but I
would say as well, and this is something
that, you know, it's upon me to mention
because it is a conversation happening among sisters
at the moment, I think for some
for a generation of Muslims,
maybe gen x, maybe the older ones more
so than the millennials,
is that, you know, feminism
provided
a lens,
right?
And if you, you know, you'll hear people
saying Islam is a feminist religion, for example,
right? What they don't they don't mean 3rd
wave feminism, they don't mean the actual actual
feminism, they just mean for women's rights because
a lot of people are under the impression
that feminism is just means that you believe
that women deserve equal rights
which is not the case. Feminism is a
lot more nuanced than that. Much much more
so. However,
in our, a lot of our communities,
the culture
that has developed over the generations,
I think has produced
other than what we saw in the Sira,
other than what we see the the Islamic
ideal. Right?
Depending on the country, depending on the situation,
you will see
cultural practices that do oppress women, that do
disregard women's rights blatantly. Yeah. And I think
in in in our time, some women felt
that feminism was the answer to that. You
know, a feminist re reading of the Quran
and all of this kind of thing or
just of, you know, a feminist lens as
in I'm a woman, I won't be ashamed
of being a woman and all of this
kind of thing. Right?
I think
what's happened since,
obviously, 3rd wave feminism has taken,
has taken the the whole kind of world
in a different direction. And that direction is
an an anti male direction. It always was
based on
disdain
to a certain extent.
Certainly sort of,
yeah, maybe disdain for men and maleness and
and masculinity
and and patriarchy and and all of the
things that men have done.
But now we're in a state where it
really is sort of anti male. And and
and the crazy thing is that while on
the one hand men are not allowed to
be masculine anymore because it's toxic and because
they they destroyed the world and they destroyed
everything and, you know, when it was under
them, the whole place was wrecked. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. But then the qualities that we
are encouraging in young girls
and in women
are
hardcore
alpha male qualities,
masculine qualities.
So which is it? Is masculinity
the standard that all women should be rising
to and have the freedom to pursue? Or
is masculinity dangerous? Is it something that is,
you know, that that should be curtailed? Or
is it that women get to be masculine
but men don't?
Mhmm. It's enough time.
I mean,
I think
I mean, is there so many there's so
many things that could that could that could
be pinpointed as the the the source of
the reason or or why things are the
way they are, but
I think if you if you started with
the feminist,
narrative
and how they frame the narrative at the
beginning,
That was in reaction to how Christians
treated women and how they treated and how
they they bet they acted towards women.
And, also,
I guess, at some point, at some some
part of the history,
this materialism
and utilitarian view
of of each other came came into view
in a sense that,
why again, but the issue of of what
you what what's what are you trying to
achieve in a in a marriage? What are
you trying to build in a marriage?
If it's all about just yourself and what
I want,
and I'm only interested in him for one
thing, and he's not interested in me in
one thing. You you end up sowing the
seeds of contempt
for the other. And this is where made
a very good point, very good channel. Good
Call 1 1 is basically a channel focused
on men, teaching men how to
be
leaders in their home. You mentioned about basically,
one of the roots
of feminism and also red pill
is Iblis.
But not just Iblis, like how we say
Iblis is a source of all evil and
shirk and kufanam. But but but, specifically,
Iblis' doctrine, meaning
we all know Iblis
on his,
and these people come to him. What have
you done? I did this. Ain't done nothing.
What have you done? I done this. We
ain't done nothing. What have you done? I
split between husband and wife, and he embraces
him as you've done a great thing. You've
done a great thing.
So any ideology this is this is what
I saw. I mean, any ideology that seeks
to
build barriers between a man and a woman.
Mhmm. And and so does he do contempt
and hatred between man and woman
and suspicion.
These are
traits. Mhmm.
Set in stone from these people, these who
seek to
break between the 2. So any ideas you've
any ideology you think of, like, a feminist,
they say that men are. Men are like
that. And and and and any kind of
negative view towards the man, that's already sowing
the seeds of contempt. Yeah. For sure. And
likewise,
women are hypergamous. All they want is money,
all they want is the the bigger child.
And then the again, sowing the seeds of
contempt and hatred. Once you sow those seeds,
even though your is still there, as in
you still wanna have a relationship with the
opposite and you still wanna the the.
Because the seed of contempt is already there.
Yeah. You've already sabotaged
that that that relationship. Suparna. You can't really
build anything because the seed of hatred and
contempt is is already there.
And that's one of the biggest issues why,
why I feel,
Red Pill failed to recognize. They they they
say, oh, this is to prevent divorce, or
this is to help people to stay together
by everyone having their roles. But you don't
you don't realize that you're framing
the other in such a, in such a
way that it's it's almost impossible to maintain
any level of of real love or or
deep love. If you just view your wife
as as someone who's just gonna monkey branch
to someone else, or it's gonna leave you
so you have no more money or whatnot.
That stuff is dangerous. That stuff is really
dangerous. And the the thing is So this
is Yeah. I meant I was just just
wanna jump in here because the thing is
that that monkey branch idea,
and the gigachad and all that kind of
thing, because obviously these ideas are spreading. I
actually had a conversation with a young man
in Zimbabwe
who is 17. He's at school. He goes
to a boys school and he's ranting and
raving about women and how women, you know,
basically, you know, the hypergamy
about how what's the point of becoming a
beta male provider so she can monkey branch
off to the next alpha and I was
like,
what are you talking about? This is Zimbabwe.
How are they? Like, what are you, you
know, like, what are you saying? This is
not a reality in your context.
Maybe it happens for some people out there
in that world, but that's not your world.
That's
that's not that's not your reality.
And that frame is is is going to
it's like his his his mom said to
me. She She said, I'm worried about what
he's consuming online because the things that he's
saying firstly, as a woman in this cultural
context, I don't know what he's talking about.
Who who are these people? You know? Who
are these women that he's referring to?
It would be a generational thing as well
because, obviously, she's older. She doesn't know what
the young girls are like. But he said
to
me, the girls in our town
talk like those girls on the videos. On
those girls on TikTok, those girls on the,
that's exactly what they say. Oh, I need
to I need to secure the bag. You
know? I don't want anybody who has less
than the the the I deserve or what
or what and all of that. So
it's it's it's it's seeping out in the
worst way. It is a reactionary
principle. I agree with you.
But I I I don't I don't I
don't I don't say that it's reactionary,
unjustified. I mean, there are some No. No.
It's justified reaction, but it's Yes. It's still
a reaction, but it's it's it it is.
It's really happening, isn't it? I think that's
the the problem. It's not some made up
it's not a bogeyman.
I think the the dynamics between men and
women in the world out there are a
reality
and this
ideology or praxeology or just lens has come
as a reaction
to what's happening on the ground. But then
go ahead.
No one?
I wonder because I've watched some of Kawamom's
videos and I've also heard you know brothers
who kind of are shall we say post
red pill
not anti but post red pill which which
I think is an important place to be.
I think as a Muslim,
one of the brothers on the the 3
Muslims said that. He said look I came
in through red pill.
It it woke me up out of a
lot of mind conditioning.
It woke me up, out to a lot
of realities about the world that I live
in as opposed to the fairy tale that
I believed before. So I feel I needed
that,
but then Islam
took me a step further
and Islam took me into a space where
I could now be comfortable in my masculinity
without hating women.
I could be comfortable in my role as
provider without feeling like a beta male provider.
You know what I mean? It allowed me
to level set, which I thought was a
very, very insightful thing that he said. Yeah.
Yes. That's that is a very important point
because the well, I was actually gonna say
that before you mentioned it that that as
Muslims, as we discussed these things, this is
where we ultimately need to go. We need
to always bring our
our
our worldview,
our behavior,
our reaction, and our framing
in the lens of al Islam.
If you try and frame it and then
in in in and put in the lens
of Ronald Tomasi or any other people like
that, You're only gonna interpret things in that
way, and this is the this is the
the danger.
Because sometimes
you may interpret innocent behavior.
Yeah. And that this person is feminist. This
person is this person is this or this.
This person is a misogynist or this person
is that. For example We all do innocent
behavior.
It's it's a sign everyone can everyone everyone
can appreciate.
There's a dad. He's got a daughter. She
was going to university. He's like, no. She's
like, why not? So but I don't I
don't feel safe for you going that environment
and blah blah blah blah.
Down with the patriarchy. How can you prevent
me doing this? This is education. The women
deserve education and blah blah blah. No.
You can frame it that he's being impressive
to you, or you can frame it that
he's actually generally concerned to you. Mhmm.
Yep. How you manage and deal with that
and react to that as something else. But
the point is there any original frame. Does
he really care about you when you get
an education? Does is he saying not what
we've done? Or is he actually concerned that
if you go to university I know what
university is like. I know how the girls
behave. I know how the boys behave. I
know what it's talking about. I don't speak
to those that that's kind of stuff. That's
a different conversation. That is not patriarchy. That's
not the done. That is a completely different
conversation. But
how did you frame that? Yeah. My dad
is if he's so backwards. He doesn't understand
the bottom now. He doesn't understand the you
know what I'm saying? So same thing with
Red Pill. You can have if you absorb
all of their doctrine, all of their ideologies,
and the explanations,
because this is this is what I said
that that that that this ideology is is
a dangerous one. And because they'll give you
scenarios
that we all know, we all experience, we
all see, but then they'll frame it Of
course. In a way which makes sense,
but it's wrong.
So for example, the for example, the issue
of of, of of hypergamy, almost a a
high value manner kind of stuff. Maybe it's
not the issue of high value. Maybe she's
not security.
Just wants to be the case where she's
got 3 kids, 4 kids, and she's struggling
to find food. May maybe that's all her
only concern. Maybe she's maybe she doesn't want
a a bad pit or a Elon Musk
or someone who's a motivated. She just wants
wants she just wants to know
that when I open the fridge, if there's
food in it, that that's that's the that's
all she cares about. It's also been hypergamy
or that's all she wants. She's just not
treating you like a bank account. She doesn't
want to find herself in a situation
that others have. She's got kids,
and she's now an adult, and she's stuck.
All this you know what I'm saying? There's
so many ways in which you can explain
her actions. Yeah. But when you have when
you have a minimalist view where you view
the world as just what what Raul Otemasi
says and how he sees it,
then that's a problem. And then that that
it becomes a cycle.
She does this all because of that. She
does this all because of that. And that
now etches away at the relationship until eventually
it's like, oh, you know what? I don't
want you because you're a feminist. She's not
a feminist. It's because you're not you're not
doing what you're supposed to do, brother. Or
you know what I'm saying? There's there's so
many things that could be said. So, again,
Islam is I I get I know it's
a it's a kinda like a obviously obviously
Islam is our answer obviously.
But it it means that it means
as us as Muslims, we need to start
engaging
Mhmm. More
with
the reading how the companions lived, how they
be breathe, how they got married, how they
got divorced, what things happen, what things didn't
happen. I mean, just one scenario, it's just
those who might might be thinking about some
you mentioned about,
like feminism. As an example of empowerment of
women,
there was one woman at the time, mister
Bolasarullah
called Barira.
Barira. And she was purchased she was a
slave. She was purchased by
Aisha and freed. Mhmm. So Aisha bought her
to free her
as as you do as as a Muslim.
You buy slaves, and you might free them.
But she freed
Barira.
Mhmm. Now Barira was also married to another
Sahabi. He was also a slave. So 2
slaves,
and they were married.
So when she was freed,
as the Sharia dictates, she has the option
of walking away from the marriage.
And she walked away.
So this became a thing in in in
in the village, in Medina. I mean, everyone
knew our husband, and everyone saw him and
how devastated he was. He was devastated. His
wife left him.
So the mestrel of Allah said to him
said to her,
have you seen He's the one crying in
the marketplace.
Was he the one crying in the marketplace
or and he's oh, okay. Please. Sorry. I'm
so sorry. I'm not sure. I got a
light bulb moment. Please. I'm so sorry for
interrupting. Carry on. I don't know about I
don't know about how how he how they
knew he was upset, but I know that
everyone knew Right.
He was upset. So he said, have you
seen so and so and how upset he
is that you've left him? Would you consider
taking him back?
And she said, it is an order, oh,
message of Allah, all you advising me. Yeah.
So I'm still on your advice.
And she said,
no. I don't want to.
Now it's the end of it.
Now if it was the case
of oppression, you know, that woman has to
be owned by men and dominated by men.
It'll be like, look,
He's upset.
Go back to him. Yeah. Go and serve
him. Do this. Do that. Yeah.
But it wasn't. It was a case of
you have the choice because you have the
rights, and these are rights given to women
way back in the day. Yeah. But the
thing is we would never know this
unless you've studied the sealer, unless you've studied
Islam, unless you made effort
to educate yourself about Islam. That's what I'm
saying. This this this is the way the
traps the trap the trap is this.
Women who fall into feminism, and I mean
real feminism, and men who fall into Makhtar
or or Redpill,
they do so
primarily
due to ignorance
of Islam or or Islamic
model should be or even looks like. If
you wanna know what it looks like, look
at how it was implemented
back then. Just just go back. Just go
back and look at how they behave.
Did
the and the wives?
Did the did the wives get upset with
their husbands? What did what did they mention
I mean, look at this. The one example
is a funny one.
And another another issue in framing as well.
But Omar came from Messenger. Oh, Messenger. My
husband is oppressive.
You know? He's not he's not where he's
supposed to be. Why? What's gone wrong? When
I pray, he stops his brain.
Oh, that sounds bad. When I fast, he
stops me
with fasting on my base.
And,
what's that said on? And he and he
and he doesn't pray fajid in the masjid.
I mean, what kind of man is this?
His wife wants to pray, she can't pray.
She wants to fast, she can't fast. And
he doesn't pray in the Masjid,
sound
like a masjid.
Masjid brought him forward. What's what's the issue?
What's going on, my friend?
Yeah.
He said that she said that she didn't
lie to you don't allow her to pray.
Oh, I
am a young man, a shab. And she
prays
all the time.
I'm sitting there waiting for attention, and all
she's doing is salah. So I told her
to stop.
So it's not that she can't pray her
salah. Mhmm. Mhmm. But it's just just that
she's doing it all the time. I should
neg neglecting
Yeah. His rights.
Okay. What about the fasting then? Why why
stop laughing fasting?
Every
day?
Every day she's fasting.
I I have desires. I mean, what do
you want to do? Mhmm. Okay. What about
the fajr? Why not playing fajr? The masjid.
I mean, you explained others about the fajr.
Well, you know, when when you guys make
me with the water,
me and a few others, we are the
ones who go to the well down the
road and bring the water up.
So we wanna bring you the water. By
the time that happens, we're knackered. So I
pray and go to sleep.
Okay. You explained yourself.
So we can already see from that one
scenario
how sometimes a woman can frame her husband
and make him look like a villain. He's
a narcissist.
He's this. Doesn't look after the kids. Oh,
he's definitely He's never he's never at home.
Mhmm. So it's not like it's a new
thing. Yeah. And everything that we have today,
he's old.
But how do you deal with that? Did
that guy
who who is what complained about him? Didn't
say the old message of Allah. She's a
feminist. Only get rid of a balak. You
know, get rid of a find another woman
who is more obedient and more. No. They
explained themselves, and they continue they continue married.
They they falsely know that nothing then then
they never got divorced.
It was just the issue I've mentioned, and
they got on with it.
Mm-mm. No. When you look at the seerah,
it's
just it's for me, it's the just the
humanity of it, you know, and how
how real the people were. And Yeah. I
guess if you want you know, I laugh
about this because
sisters who are kind of pro women or
kind of coming from a more fem more,
let's say, more female centered
space
will bring examples of the Seera to back
up their ideas.
Similarly, the brothers coming from the pro male
space, they do exactly the same. They bring
examples from the sira.
It's all true. Right? Because there were,
you know, dominant men in the time of
the sira. There were strong women in the
time of the sira. There were unhappy husbands.
There were unhappy wives. You know, there were
people who stayed together through thick and thin.
There's people got divorced multiple times. There's people
who married the virgin and married the divorcee.
So
it's it's the seerah is this rich place,
subhanAllah, for for us to be able to
just to study the dynamics of Muslims at
work.
And we could definitely have another conversation about
this because I have so many questions actually
just based on the seerah, subhanAllah,
about divorce,
about, custody,
about,
you know, so, you know, choosing spouses because
obviously, you know, in this male female space,
you know, marriage is a big thing.
How to choose your spouse, you know, 2nd,
3rd marriages,
polygamy, all of that is still, like, you
know, we're still having conversations about. So maybe
we'll have to have another one because what
I would love to just talk about is
the big issues that we're discussing now. You
know, the the the the tough questions.
What was happening in the seerah? You know,
how are things going down in the time
of the prophet sarsen? So maybe we'll have
to have another another episode where we talk
about that inshallah.
But, tell us a little bit about your
work, Insha'Allah, before we wrap up. Just before
that, because you mentioned something I want just
want to add to what you just said
there about
recently mentioned you mentioned that sisters. They talk
about things in the scene about the support,
the feminine the feminine
narrative, and they have the brothers mentioned things
that support the male narrative. I think
that action in of itself
kind of summarizes our whole discussion so far,
if you think about it. Because, essentially,
we are trying to discuss and explore
how
men and women
can live successful,
happy, meaningful lives of each other.
But yet, we haven't we haven't we haven't
really add addressed the issue that or the
question of
of,
what are you
doing for the other? You're more concerned about
your own party, and it remind me of
this of the, again, of the sealant, the
mess of Allah, when they had the issues
between the Ansar and Mujahidin.
And the first thing happened,
oh, Mahajarin, who could come come and support
the Mahajarin. And they said, oh, Ansar, come
support Mhmm. Everyone called to their side,
and the said, this is.
This is disgusting.
Leave this.
As in leave this.
This of ignorance, of calling sides. We're always
pointing outside, you know, pointing outside.
The whole premise of a marriage Wow. Is
that you are now looking at the other
person's wants, not your own wants.
If you go into a marriage with on
that premise that I'm I'm only the focus
on what I want, and I want this,
I want that, then
you you you you start you start off
on a bad form, basically. And that's and
that would that would be the the the
good way to get to to that point
there is that, basically, that's it. You find
problems happen when that is the way you
behave.
Me, me, me, or in the same Arabic,
It's just
me, my myself online.
That's not how it is. And that's essentially
how how Kufar frame it. I always frame
it in that way. Even like Kevin Samuels
says says to me all the time, what
do you offer to the man? As in
he's he's essentially, he's trying to say to
them, look. Stop looking at what you want.
Yeah. Look at the other. Likewise for men
Mhmm. Look at what you can do for
her. If you are working for each other,
then, essentially, you would work together. If you
just say, I want this and I want
this and I want this. Yeah.
Then yeah. But, anyway, were you saying the
question about what I what is the what
I do? The work yes. So the work
that you do, how people can, find out
more about the survey. Debbie gets on the
Instagram guys. Go and look at it. It's
in the highlights. It's very, very interesting. The
survey
the survey was an interesting one because
that was done
in, I would say, the time when I
was more actually influenced
by, I would say, red pill ideas.
And as I've as I as I've explored
those ideas a bit further and whatnot,
my my latest video I did was actually
talking about, which is the highest the 7
part series about about Redpill ideology and about
MacTel specifically.
Wow. So if any if you someone wants
to look at that Yeah. That, Instagram thing,
that's only also to balance out with what
I said after. Because I haven't put them
2 together yet. Yes. I'm gonna be putting
1 on the other, but but,
essentially, what I do is has has nothing
to do with our discussion
Okay. Primarily
an Arabic and Islamic study teacher. Gotcha. So
I graduated from the Islamic University of Medina
some decades ago,
and, essentially, I've just been teaching since then.
So we have a institute, Islamic Institute on,
in Leyton, London.
And, it's a charity on Malaysia, so we
basically just do
normal educational stuff. And, essentially,
I mean, what I what
I end up doing by proxy of being
you know, I am people call me up
for, you know, help the marriage and loss
and this kind of stuff and Fatawa and
inheritance. And and, basically, I just just just
deal deal with that, really.
Yeah.
And that's essentially what I do. But outside
of that,
you know, it's just basically about asking I'm
not asking, but but help people,
better their situation,
especially financially.
Mhmm. So I try and also help people
in educating about Bitcoin and other stuff like
that. That's basically
what I do. Various different things revolving my
education and you could say counseling, but not
not officially a counselor.
Guys, we're gonna link to all of those,
resources in the description inshallah. But, brother Mawia,
it's been really,
really great to to to have this conversation
with you. It's been fascinating. We've, you know,
it's, we've covered a lot of ground. I
think there's still been more. I think for
me as as an individual kind of seeker,
it's it's always
fascinating to speak with people who've studied the
deen,
and who are kind
of up to date with what's happening in
the world. So having conversations with people who
have Islamic knowledge
and are working in the world. So maybe
they're counselors or they're imams or they're, you
know, they're teaching or they're just connected with
modern day issues because I think one of
the things that we're suffering from right now
is people consider Islamic knowledge to be one
thing
and then knowledge of the dunya and the
dunya itself is something completely different.
And
very few of us have the ability to
apply little Islamic knowledge that we have
to the dunya and
use what we have to make sense of
the dunya. Because I believe that
Islam and what Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala teaches
us and how he how he trains us
as Muslims
is the only way that makes a dunya
make sense. Otherwise, the dunya is just a
crazy place.
SubhanAllah. So it's been really, really refreshing having
this conversation with you. We will link to
everything in the description,
but may Allah reward you. Bless your family
inshallah to ensure the tribe of 10 with
10 each.
And
may Allah reward you for your time and
bless everybody here inshallah.
And,
everybody else,
I will see you on the next episode
inshallah.