Naima B. Robert – Advice for Writers from Hend Hegazi
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I'll go to
Bismillah,
Wassa Allahu Assalamu
Alaikum, Warahmatullah
wa Barakat to everyone.
Welcome to another one of our Sunday sessions,
and we have a very,
very special guest with us today.
If you've been involved in Muslim Mariah's in
any capacity, then you you'll be familiar with
her. She will be no stranger to you.
She has probably
given you
some words of advice,
some words of a support, some words of
comfort. And if you are very fortunate, you
may even have given you feedback on something
you've
written or any script.
Our special guest today is none other than
Hend Hegazi,
long time member of Muslim writers and long
time co conspirator
in this work that we have here
helping
sisters to plan, write, and edit books of
all kinds.
Thank you for that beautiful intro, Naima. I'm
so happy to be here, with the rest
of the Muslim writers.
Alhamdulillah,
it's a pleasure to have you here, Masha'Allah.
It is such a pleasure. SubhanAllah. I mean,
when we say we go back,
we go back. Yeah. You wanna tell the
audience a little bit about your journey as
a writer
and also your journey within the Muslim writers'
universe, if you like.
Okay. So I,
I began writing my first novel. I think
it was 2010. I I could be wrong,
but I think it was 2010.
And,
and I as I was writing, I was
thinking of, well, you know, I need to
I need to put myself out there more,
and how do I find magazines that I
can, you know, put my writing in?
And that's how I found Sisters. And so
our first connection was actually that I was,
one of the writers,
one of the contributing writers to Sisters. I
tried to do that fairly regularly, Alhamdulillah,
and then,
and I wrote my first book and Alhamdulillah,
it, it was it was published by a
small by a small print publisher.
And then the years went by,
and,
I had
another book that I that I wrote and
was published by the same publisher.
And just after that, I think, was when
we connected was when you were sort of
shifting from sisters to now becoming more of,
like, a a a co a writing coach,
and that's when sort of Muslim writers began
to,
you know, sort of show up on the
scene and evolve and grow and everything
And, and I joined you as sort of
your your right hand woman for a little
while, and then,
I sort of started to shift more into
becoming,
a coach and an editor from from the
beginning. I've I've been with you as an
editor.
It's one of the things that I love
doing. I think
I think, you know,
sort of insider information. I think I'm a
better editor and coach than I am writer,
and I think that that's where my passions
are sort of starting to take me, alhamdulillah.
So I but I'm happy with that, alhamdulillah.
Masha'allah.
Like, I I know I know that once
this goes out, we will have
so many people talking about having been coached
by you, having, you know, had their work.
You know, just having worked with you,
because I think that there's there's a I
think there's a special,
there's a special philosophy that I think you
bring to to to the work that that
you do and and that you've always done.
Do you wanna share a little bit about
what excited you and what excites you the
most about working in our particular niche and
helping sisters to craft their lighting?
Well, I think it's so important that we
that we give
you know, that we provide the support that
our Muslim sisters need. And I think that
it's not often where you find an organization
that can support Muslim writers. Right?
Muslim writers, like, you know, lowercase.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I and
I just I love being there for writers
to help them strengthen their work. I love
to sort
of show them
what the weaknesses are, not so that they
can see the weakness and say, oh, I'm,
you know, I'm so bad at this. I
but so that they can understand how to
strengthen it so that, you know, we can
give them the tools that they need to
learn. Okay. This is a mistake that I
make. How do I stop making this mistake
in the future? It's not just about fixing
the work at hand. It's about learning the
tools to help you move forward as a
stronger writer in you know, for your writing
journey.
Wow, I love that. And what I mean,
a lot of people,
it's easy to write on your own, right?
You can be anywhere in any situation and
you could be writing. But actually having somebody
to give you actual feedback. Remember how often
we used to have complaining that that was
the one thing they couldn't get anyone to
do is actually give them some feedback.
How crucial
is
the feedback
from an editor and the editing?
How crucial is that to the success of
a writer as as you know, when we're
looking at their journey with large?
I think that it is
100% necessary to get feedback from somebody who
has experience in your genre.
I think that if
you don't do that, if a writer doesn't
do that,
she's setting herself up.
I don't wanna say failure, but she's setting
herself up for heartache.
I think that when you get the feedback,
you like I said, you learn what your
weaknesses are so that you can
not just correct them for this work that
you're you know, the the current project that
you're working on, but so that you understand,
okay, this is something that I've been doing.
This is something that,
you know, is is maybe
not something that you were taught necessarily, but
something that is sort of,
ingrained in how you write and you wanna
fix it, you wanna you wanna shift it
so that now it's something that is working
for you.
I I I just
if you don't get feedback from someone,
how do you expect to put it out
into the world? Once it goes out into
the world,
then all of your readers have access to
it. And if you don't want the reader's
reaction to be, oh, well, you know,
she has this mistake and she has this
mistake and it was this plot hole and
this didn't really make sense to me. And
when you give it to an editor, that's
exactly what she's looking at. She's looking to
make sure that
the the flow of your work is is
smooth. She's looking to make sure that there's
no inconsistencies.
She's looking to make sure that if you're
writing fiction, that there are no plot holes,
you know, that the character development is strong
enough. So there's so many so many things
that she's looking at and when you are
especially a new writer and you don't necessarily
have eyes for that, you don't you're not
to put something out and then almost
regret that you did it too soon, you
know, when you have somebody who's there for
you, who can give you that feedback, who
you can trust. Obviously, a good editor isn't
gonna be like, well, this sucks and that
sucks and you need to get rid of
this. I mean, a good editor isn't gonna
say it like that. You know? She's gonna
give you she's gonna tell you where the
weaknesses are, but she's gonna give you suggestions
on how to strengthen on how to change
it.
Mhmm. No. Absolutely 100%.
And what about
something I remember you did? We talked about
this at one of the first summits, I
believe.
But
there are 2 I have 2 questions. 1
is how because you've done both. You've been
a writer, you've been an editor, you know,
you've worked with writers, you've been an editor.
How different is
the writing state from the editing state?
We talk about this a lot in release,
don't we? Yes. Yes. And I and I've
had to pull the ladies up because some
of them don't wanna
talked to? Keep, like, you know, perfecting as
they go along. Yeah. Reading back over their
work. Girl, I'm gonna get him hand you
the mic. Yes. And talk about the difference
between being in the writing space, in the
writing state of mind, and the editing state
of mind.
Okay. So,
definitely, those are 2
completely different mindsets. When you are in the
writing state,
you are creating. And if you
hold yourself back in any way, you will
stop the flow and you will never get
to done. Who who is it that said
perfect is the enemy of done? I'm not
sure who said that but, you know, it's
it's out there somewhere.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
So if you
if you are so
set on making sure that every word and
every line is exactly perfect as you write,
it will never get written because you're gonna
be going back and forth and back and
forth and back and forth and you're never
gonna get to a place where you're happy
with it.
But if while you're writing, you say to
yourself,
I'm just getting all of my my ideas
down on the page, and right now, even
if some of the sections don't make sense,
that's perfectly fine. This is something that I'm
gonna deal with later when I have my
editing hat on. Right now, I'm in my
creating state and in the creating state,
you have to allow it to be messy.
If you don't allow it to be messy,
it will never get done. So you have
to just sit there and pour the ideas
out. You know, when I was writing, my
last my last book, as I was writing,
there was one scene where I've said this
several times before, so probably our listeners have
heard this from me before, but there was
one scene where
my main character
is,
speaking to her parents. So there's an actual
conversation that she's having with her parents. And
in another scene, several chapters later,
I mentioned that she,
is an orphan,
and I noticed this as I'm writing it.
Right?
Yeah. I'm like
yes.
And I noticed it while I'm writing. I'm
like, oh, wait a minute. Didn't I wasn't
she just talking to her parents? But if
I had stopped to fix it at that
point,
it would have been it would have been
such a mess. What I did was I
made a note to myself. You have to
figure out whether her parents are alive or
not, and then I just kept writing, you
know. Yeah. Because if you don't do that,
like I said, you get stuck in a
cycle where you keep going back and you
keep going back and oh, wait a minute.
Well, when I fix this here, that means
that that affected, you know, that other thing
that happened in chapter 3 and so it's
it really is never ending. But if you
make sure that you get everything on the
page,
then you have
then you have the basis, then you have
the foundation, then you can shift and move
and take things out and add things in
and, it becomes a much smoother process for
you at that stage, at the, you know,
the editing stage.
Yes.
Now, for the people in the back. Exactly.
And yes, also
to finding out as you're moving along through
your story, especially fiction. Obviously, Most of our
listeners will not be fiction writers, but,
yes to new information coming up about the
characters as you write. Okay? And just
discovering things about them that maybe there are
some continuity issues with, but, yes, you're right.
You you write forward.
You write forward, and you just keep going
because I think people underestimate
the number of people who start writing a
book and never finish. Yes. And it's not
it's not I mean, of course, people never
finish for a lot of reasons. And I
do believe that the number is 3%, the
ones who actually complete.
But,
the not the never finishing,
they that never finished group is a big
group. Right? So it's people who
started, wrote a chapter, and then left it.
It's people who have been working on it
for years and still haven't got to the
end. And it's also people who've been trying
to make it perfect. Right. And because they've
been trying to make it perfect, it's never
finished. Right? Yes. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So so
so
Yeah. No. I I don't have anything more
to say because that is that is the
word, guys.
That is the word on the street and
that is the truth, masha'Allah.
Yes. That is the truth. So alright. So
how
I remember we've got a wonderful piece on
the Muslim and Writers Academy that you wrote
about,
how to take
feedback. Right? How to accept feedback. How to
accept specifically criticism.
Right?
How difficult is that for sisters sometimes and
what would you advise? You know, what kind
of mindset should they have? What tools can
they use to be able to to be
good acceptors of feedback?
Okay. So,
especially for first time writers, accepting feedback and
especially, like you said, criticism,
it can be
almost hurtful, like, because
our work is a part of who we
are. We we consider, you know, our creation,
whether it's writing or different kinds of art.
We consider that to be a part of
us. And so if somebody says to you,
even if it's not in so many words,
but if somebody says something that basically means
this isn't very good,
then we take it to be very personal.
And we think to ourselves, well, you know,
you're you're telling me that I'm not very
good. Like, that's that's that's very hurtful when
somebody says that to you.
But if you can
if you can learn to understand
that
any feedback who's coming to you from a
trusted source,
And by trusted source, I mean an editor
or,
a a beta reader that you have
sort of chosen very carefully
or a writing coach,
then know that their intention
is to help you.
When they
when you win, like, when you when you
strengthen your work and you put it out
there and it's a and it's a success,
that's a win for them too. That means
that they helped that they did their job.
That means that they can say as your
editor or as your coach or as a
beta reader, they can say, hey. I helped
make that happen, you know? Yes.
So anybody who is a trusted source,
give
time to sort of take in their feedback.
So when you get their their feedback, whether
it's in the form of an edit letter
or comments on the side of your work,
whatever it might be. Read it all at
once. You know, read it all one time
and one sit through, and then and then
move away from it. Don't
don't,
don't go in and try to make any
changes.
Let whatever emotions
come to the surface, let them come to
the surface, but away from it so that
you're not, like, still staring at the page
or anything.
And this will give you time
to really internalize what they're saying. It will
give you time to
make it not personal so that you understand
that this is about the work. This is
about helping you make it stronger. It's not
about saying that it sucks. It's about saying
there's a weakness here and we can make
it stronger. So how how do we do
that and and and the suggestions for that?
So it gives you that
that ability and it also gives you that
time so that you understand
that it's it's not personal. It's they're not
telling me that I'm not good. They're, you
know, making suggestions on how I can make
this stronger.
So that's really the first the first point
of advice is understand who the people are
that are giving you the feedback and know
that they are on your side, you know,
and I and I don't mean when you
give it to a friend or family member
because that's not always
the wisest thing. You won't always get the
best feedback from them, But if you're giving
it to an editor or a writing coach
or even a beta reader, but, again, a
beta reader that you have chosen very specifically
for this particular project,
then know that they're on your side and
they wanna help you. And give yourself that
space so that you read the feedback once
and you come away from it for a
couple of days, maybe even a week so
that it's sort of percolating in your mind.
And then you can sort of sort through
what's working for you and what's not working
for you. Something else that
especially new writers fall into is they think
that every single piece of advice
that an editor or a writing coach gives
them that they have to implement that.
And and I'm against that as well because
I think that you need to sit and
think sometimes
we, as editors or writing coaches, don't always
see
exactly your vision. We are
not translating. It's not going through. Yes. Exactly.
We're not getting it. Exactly. And so
that's up to you to then decide when
I give you that feedback,
is this working for my vision? Is this
correct for for my project?
But you really have to be fair about
it. You can't just say, well, I don't
I don't agree with that. You really have
to analyze it and say, is this going
to make my work stronger? Does this fit
with my vision and is it gonna make
it stronger?
Yeah. No. I SubhanAllah. 100%. And I think
I think it is hard, isn't it? Like
you said, especially because most of the time
we're working with first time writers, whether it's
in the children's books or the nonfiction or
even fiction. Often it is first time writers.
Mhmm. And like you said, they have a
lot personally invested in the work. Right? Yeah.
So it can be very difficult.
Just for the record and a disclaimer, coach
Hend is a much kinder editor than I
am.
And
she she is masha'Allah.
And and and one of the things I
like about your editing approach, that I've always
liked about your editing approach, is how much
teaching you do in your editing.
And that's something I think a lot of
people don't expect necessarily to to get from
their editor.
They expect feedback and they expect to be
told, kind of, what's working and what's not,
but they don't necessarily
expect to learn
why something's not working
Mhmm.
And how they could fix it and the
different options that there are, especially in children's
books. I think that's one of the most
fun things that I've seen you do with
children's books, especially when you don't like the
plot or the character development.
I'm just seeing you kind of give this
really great, like, you could go this way
or you could take it that way or
it could be that kind of much. Like,
think about this a little bit. Right. Yeah.
Tell tell me about what you've seen over
the years now,
which has been a long time.
What are the biggest
I wanna say,
characteristics
of or I don't wanna say mistakes. I
just wanna say that the kind of the
issues that you find the most in the
children's books. What have you found yourself
critiquing
and and giving feedback to say this needs
to shift, this needs to change? What are
those most common areas within children's books? And
then we'll go to the nonfiction, you know.
What what could people who are listening potentially
look out for in their own work even
before it goes to an editor? What are
the things that the hot button things that
you're seeing?
Okay. So,
a point of advice that is for
every every writer, whether it's children's books or
nonfiction,
is
consistency
is king.
Okay? So I I really believe that, and
I've said it over and over and over
in my in my edits for for people.
If you have a children's book where you
begin for example, you begin it as a
rhyme. Right? So you begin the story in
a rhyme
and then all of a sudden the rhyme
just falls away. That doesn't work. That that
that doesn't keep your readers engaged. I'm not
saying that your story has to be a
rhyme. I'm just saying that if you begin
it as a rhyme, then you need to
follow through to the end. Yeah. And the
best way for you to understand if the
flow of something is working is to read
it out loud and I cannot say this
enough and we've said it so many times
and you can tell when somebody hasn't read
it out loud and and I just wanna
say that over and over.
We can tell if you haven't read it
out loud because
we're not doing anything we're not doing magic
to understand if it's flowing. What we are
doing as your editors is reading it out
loud and we're listening to it. Does this
sound is this is this engaging? Is there
a rhythm? Is there a is the rhyme
following through? If I begin with a rhyme
scheme of
a b a b, am I following through
following with that through to the end or
has it changed in the middle all of
a sudden and then the rhythm is sort
of, you know, it it just goes away.
So
consistency is king.
And, obviously, there are lots of lots of
children's stories that don't use rhyme, but a
lot of I think a lot of children's
writers,
they either they
they try it or they really want to
try it. And so I just want to
give that piece of advice for for all
of the the children's book writers.
Something else that I think
that I think children's book
writers struggle with is if you have a
a story with a character arc,
I I think children's book writers, especially in
the Muslim
sector,
we worry about
introducing characters,
children, children characters that are not,
I don't want to say perfect, but that
are not You did want to say perfect.
That is what you want to say. I
do wanna put it in. It's it's it's
an idealized version of a Muslim child. Right?
It's like
an archetype. Right? So Right. That's that's what
you find a lot is there's an archetypal
character, a child Yep. Character, a Muslim child,
of a certain age. It's an archetype more
than an actual personality and actual character.
Right. And and they and and the writers
want
this perfect character
to begin at the beginning of the story.
Like, they want the character to be perfect
from the very beginning. Okay. Well, if my
character is perfect from the very beginning, what
do they learn? Like, what what what adventure
what happens to them on their character arc?
If they're perfect at the beginning and they're
perfect at the end, where is the pull?
Where where is the engagement in that story?
The you have to allow the character
to be human. Like, you have to allow
the character to have human mistakes,
and it doesn't mean that you are encouraging
children to be bad to their parents. It
doesn't mean that you're, you know, encouraging them
to lie. It doesn't mean that you're encouraging
them to do this. It means that you
recognize that children at this age tend to
act like this. And so if I have
a children who's acting like this and I
wanna teach them a moral or I wanna
teach them some kind of a lesson so
that they do that less, at least, then
I have to show
the reality of that at the beginning of
the story. And I can't be you know,
I can't shy away from saying that, you
know, some children lie or some children are,
you know, bad with their parents or bad
with their siblings or that they are, you
know, that they act up in school or
whatever it might be.
And I think that you have to
just be kinder to yourself and be kinder
to that poor character, like, you know, just
let the character be be more human. Let
the character be more human.
You're just a kid.
Yes. You're just a kid.
Yes.
Anything else that our children's book writers or
anything else that you've seen
repeatedly,
let's say, with children's book writing?
Those are really the big ones that come
to mind. There might be more, but those
are the big ones that come to mind.
Yeah. Yeah. I think when you say consistency
is key, I really like that. And I
think it applies to a lot of other
things. Obviously, you know, we talked about rhyme.
But just, you know, for for for the
sake of anybody listening or watching,
similarly,
if you started in rhyme
and you went into prose, right, and you
ended up finishing the story in prose,
you may want to go back and rewrite
the beginning in prose. Right? Because it could
be that your natural voice is or the
natural voice for this story is actually more
of a narrative style or a prose style
or or even a different rhyming style or
whatever. Yeah.
Something that
bugs me,
when it comes to consistency
is tenses.
Yes. Yes.
It's tenses.
Tenses and person, Right? Not not so much
in person because you do find people are
quite consistent. If they start in first person,
they usually will finish.
But tenses, I've noticed, is is something that
people
seem to struggle with
sticking to one tense.
Yes. And and and that the the the
comment you made about reading out loud.
Yes. When we when you, I, anybody else
reads a children's story and we're stumbling,
Mhmm. Just for the sake of anyone watching
or listening,
that means that your story is not flowing.
Right? And that's something you can
Right. Right? So that is not even something
that should go to your editor.
That's something you should pick up when you
do the self editing that we teach you
Yep. And be able to fix. Yeah? Because
we all read according to what we're given.
So whether it's the way that the lines
are on the page or the punctuation
or the number of words that you've put
in, number of syllables in a line,
it's it's the rhythm is dictated by how
you've written it. So if the
rhythm is off,
that means you've written it. In in one
of one of those areas, it's not landing.
Whether it's a punctuation, whether it's too many
syllables, whether it's Right. The lines, the way
you put the lines, we are not reading
what you're hearing in your head. You can
fix that.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And what about And
that's actually Okay. Go. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry.
Just just a final point that that you
said.
You know, you said that's not ready to
go to your editor and I think that
so many so many writers,
they fall into that trap where they're like,
okay, first step's done. I'm gonna send it
off to the editor now and no, it
cannot be like that guys. It cannot be
like that. You really need
to read it several times yourself, like, we
say 3 to 5, but some readers read
it like, you know, 20 times and they
go through and they make the changes all
of those times, you know, and
you shouldn't be moving it on to the
next,
like, to the next stage to the next
stage of editing
unless and until you are happy with it.
That doesn't mean that it's perfect. It doesn't
mean that there aren't still some issues that
you're having trouble fixing,
because sometimes there are issues, like, we can
see that there's an issue, but me as
the writer, I can't figure out how to
how to fix it. And so I tell
my editor. I say, I know that I
have this issue. Can you please help me
with, you know, figuring it out? Can you
please help me to fix it?
But, yes, I think that that's definitely something
that, you know, we need we need to
warn,
new writers about, you know, don't move ahead
to the next stage of editing, meaning, you
know, pass it on to your editor, unless
and until you are mostly happy with it.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.
Yeah.
So, everybody, I hope you take in those
take on board, inshallah, because we've got the
5 day challenge coming up. So we hope
that you guys are gonna be taking part
in that.
The link is in the description. So what
about nonfiction then? What are the common mistakes
that editors kind of have to come in
on or that you've noticed
for nonfiction writing?
Nonfiction,
I think the biggest thing is structure. Sometimes
it's difficult to
for a writer to be able to tell
what's the best flow for, you know, for
for my content. And I think that sometimes,
again, when you read it out loud, that
helps you to listen to it. It helps
you to hear it. It helps you to
think, wait a minute. I talked about this
issue before or wait a minute. I'm mentioning
some kind of a term and I haven't
even explained what that term is.
So when you read it out can I
just say that I find that that's a
really big one nowadays?
Yeah. I've seen that in several manuscripts especially
when it comes to like the self help
genre.
Yes. Assistants who are in the self help
therapy, psychological space, this tendency to use psychological
terms that are obviously
lingua franca for for that sister or she's
a coach or she's working with clients, etcetera.
And there is this this expectation that my
reader understands and just using jargon,
that is that is is is is really
to the large majority of people
have no idea what that is. So yeah.
Sorry to jump in there. Yes. No. No.
No. It's true. And and on top of
that, sometimes
sometimes the writer sort of,
create I I just worked on,
on a book recently,
and the writer had, like, created their own
term for something. And he mentioned the term
before explaining what he meant by it. And
so that that that also is something that,
you know, writers need to be aware of.
You can't be talking to me about something
if I don't already know what that is.
You know? You have to explain it to
me even if, like you said, Naema, even
if it's something that
you are,
you know, that's common to you and in
your space, it doesn't mean that me as
a regular reader is gonna understand what that
means.
So make sure that the terms are are
clear, that we understand what you mean by
any, any terms that you use.
And, again,
the flow
sometimes,
fixing the flow fixing the structure
of a book, it can it can help
you to use,
like, your your method, Naima, of the sticky
notes. You know? So if you have your
the title of your chapter, for example, and
then, like, the the main points that that
chapter
touches upon, if you have that sort of
map in front of you, then it can
be easy for you to, like, you know,
move things around and you say, oh, wait
a minute. Well, these are kind of connected,
you know, chapter 1 here and chapter 10
here or this issue that I talk about
here in chapter 10. Maybe I need to
pull this topic from chapter 10 and put
it into chapter 1 with, you know, where
I go into it deeper or whatever it
might be. So that is that is,
I think that's, like, the biggest issue that
we see with, nonfiction
with nonfiction.
Structure. Structure. Structure
is a tough one as well. And I
I think I think that
the way that we get writers to plan,
before they start writing,
I think I like
to think that it it solves a part
of that problem because you kind of have
to do the thinking part and the sorting
out part before you start writing. Have you
found it to be useful,
when in your own work and also when
you were working with clients?
Yes. I totally agree with you. Yes. Definitely.
Because like because like I just said, you
have it all in front of you, and
so you can you can then see, like,
you can literally see what subjects, you know,
go together. But sometimes if you haven't done
that or sometimes you've done that, but maybe
you weren't too specific,
it might be worth it at the end
to make that same sort of map. And,
and then and then you can do your
your shifting there at that point. Yeah. I've
actually found that to be very useful sort
of at the tail end. So when you're
doing the editing because inevitably as you're writing,
new topics come up. Right? New topics come
up, new stories, new ideas as you're writing,
masha'Allah, tabbalakkal, alhamdulillah for the inspiration. But stuff
will come up that maybe wasn't necessarily in
the original plan And
I find
that when I'm I'm reading, and I did
this with my I did this with Show
Up, if I remember correctly. And I'm going
to do it again with Show Up because
I want to I I feel like it
needs some tightening and restructuring in certain areas.
But
if I've got a chapter that I just
feel it's it's a bit all over the
place,
I'll kind of go through and pick out,
okay, well, what are the the subtopics here
in this chapter? Right? Yep. Note them down,
and and maybe over a couple of chapters,
and then say, look, this topic, I've gone
into it in chapter 3, but it really
belongs in chapter 1 with these other topics
that, you know, really are part of a
family. Right? And so that, I think Yeah.
I mean, for me, again,
I think you're a plotter, aren't you? Are
you a plotter or a pantser? I did
I didn't used to be. I didn't used
to be a plotter. But now, I I
I do do a little bit of plotting.
It's not so intense. Some people are their
their plots are like very intense. Mine is
not very intense. Mine is very general, but
I do use that before I begin. Yes.
No. It's interesting. Pantsers are a mystery to
me.
They are a mystery to me.
But I do know that it works really
really well for some people. But for those
who are listening
and thinking, hold on a minute,
coach Naima and coach Hend were talking about
using jargon
in their board. Right. And now, we're talking
about plotters and pantsers.
Exactly. What is a plotter versus a pantser?
Just give us the definition.
Okay. So a plotter is somebody who basically
plots or outlines their project before they begin,
and a pantser is somebody who goes by
the seat of their pants. So they don't
necessarily
do any plotting or any outlining. They have
an idea and they just run with it.
Yeah. And, of course, it's people who do
kind of have a little bit of both.
Some more of one than the other. Yes.
Like, I think you're probably
you you have the plotting, but I think
that you also leave it open. Yes. Yes.
Definitely. Also. Yeah. Masha'Allah.
Alhamdulillah.
Alright. So so that's golden advice
for for the ladies who have, who have,
who are working on nonfiction right now.
We have lots of them live with us,
which is wonderful.
I would like to ask about
how to set expectations
for the editing phase. Right? Because the gap
between expectation and reality,
that's where frustration
lies. Right? Yes. Definitely. You know, in our
program,
we we encourage
our writers to do some heavy planning at
the start
and then get that first draft out. Bam,
bam, bam, bam, bam. Just just get it
done. Just get it out. Get it it's
it's not gonna be perfect. It's gonna be
full of holes. It's gonna be tacky, ratty,
messy. No problem. Just get it done within
90 days if you can. So a lot
of people think I think, subconsciously,
there is this expectation that, okay, if I
do what Sister Naima and Coach Hind and
everybody told me and I follow this the
steps,
I'm gonna finish my book within 90 days
and then maybe in a month or so
I'll be ready to publish.
Help us to set healthy expectations
for the editing phase from that first editorial
critique
all the way to the published book.
Okay. I I'm actually gonna take it a
step back before that. So
we've we've written the book in 90 days.
Right? But like Naima just said, it's messy
and it's full of holes and you have
to let it be messy. We're not telling
you not to do that. We are telling
you during the writing phase, you need to
allow it to be messy. Okay? But you
have to recognize that it's messy. Right? So
that means that now it's your job to
go in and try to tidy it up
as best as you can
And that means, I think, we say, you
know, 3 to 5 weeks 3 to 5
rounds of self editing.
Now the 3 to 5 rounds of self
editing,
it kind of depends on how
focused you are on this particular project. And
what I mean by that is, do you
have other responsibilities? Are you working? Are you
taking care of children or elders?
Like, how much time do you actually have
to give to this project?
If you're working on it full time,
then you can probably finish those 3 to
5
rounds of, self editing
in maybe a month or 2 if you're
working on it full time. But most people
aren't working on full time. Most people have
other responsibilities
in addition to this work, in addition to
this project that they're working on. And so
keep that in mind as you edit.
Probably, you won't finish your self editing,
especially for so this is for nonfiction,
particularly. Like, for a children's book, it it
will be much quicker than that. But for
nonfiction books,
you wanna give yourself at least 3 months
where you're just editing your book because the
editing is you're going in, you're making the
changes. You're reading it again. You're finding different
mistakes or new mistakes that you did or,
you know, old mistakes that you hadn't corrected
or some that are, you know, popping up
now because of the changes that you made.
So give yourself
at least 3 months. Okay? So this is
sort of
and then we pass it on to, to
get the critique. Now also keep in mind
that your manuscript
isn't the only one that's been submitted for
the critique, though. So yours is 1 in
a queue,
and
it will probably take another,
what, 2 to 3 months, Naima, maybe before
the critique is is ready and back to
you.
Once you have that critique,
again, give yourself
at least another month or 2 to make
the, the changes that your, you know, that
the editor tells you advises you to make
in the in the critique.
And then at that point, it kind of
depends on
your critique. So some of them some of
them,
you know, your editor will say this is
strong. You just need to make these changes
and you'll be good to go.
And some of them, you know, the the
critique will say
this still needs a lot of work. Even
after you make these changes, I suggest that
you send it to an editor.
So it will really depend on, you know,
how strong that
your final
your final draft was when you sent it
into to the critique. But but, really, guys,
like, give yourself
at least 6 months
at least 6 months from the moment you
finish that first draft
until you can expect it to be out
into the world. And I say, at least,
it it might even be more than that.
Yep. Yeah. And I we're we're looking at
launching and, you know, planning your launch and
all of that kind of thing. We like
to have the longest runway possible.
Yes. The goal is really, we want to
put out the very best work.
Definitely.
We want it to come out. Like, we
don't want this to stall and and never
see the light of day, but we want
it to see the light of day at
its best date, right? Yes. So I think
managing those expectations,
is is a really important part of that.
So how would you advise
clients to avoid
editing dread?
Because that's a real thing, Right? That's a
real thing, and we've seen that happen a
lot.
Yes.
You've done all this work. You think the
hard work is done. Of course, we don't
tell them in the 90 days there.
You don't wait. Yeah. I was like Because
you don't know though. That's the thing. Because
you don't know.
Yeah. We've got no way of knowing unless
we were reading it chapter by chapter alongside
Exactly. While you were writing it. Yep. We've
got no way of knowing
how complete
your first draft is going to be. Right?
Or just how raggedy it's going to be.
We've got no way no way of knowing,
and that's why we can't tell you.
For sure, it will be ready in this
amount of time after you're done.
So so you've done you've done what you
believe is the the hardest work of your
life. Right? You've poured your heart and soul
into this. You stayed up late. You've done
all of the things, and you get the
feedback from your editor. And your editor says,
this needs work. Right?
How do you avoid
that dread of going back into the manuscript
and kind of and and going back into
the work when you thought it was done,
when you hoped that the hard work was
done. What are your thoughts on that?
I think
so. 22
things.
Give yourself
time and be kind to yourself.
Now, by give yourself time, I mean, sometimes
you have been so focused on this project
that it has basically consumed your life. Right?
And if that is the case, then certainly
do something
that is separate from this, but give yourself
a deadline.
So do something that's either something else that
you're creating, some other project, some other work
of art, something else that you're creating,
or just give yourself
a a break if that if that's what
you need.
But give yourself a deadline and say to
yourself, okay. I'm going to take a break
for the next 2 weeks, and then I'm
gonna come back to it.
Mhmm. And when you come back to it,
be kind to yourself.
It will take time,
but it doesn't have to be something that
consumes you.
So if you say to yourself, I'm only
gonna work on this for, you know,
half an hour each day because
editing requires a little bit more work and
concentration and and I think if you say,
you know, 10:15 minutes, that's not really enough.
Like, you really need to give yourself half
an hour or an hour each day. And,
certainly, you can give yourself more than that,
but just don't let it burn you out.
If you feel like you're starting to burn
out, again, take some space from it. Go
for a walk. Do some writing prompts. You
know, do something that is separate from it
so that you can sort of recharge that
energy.
And and know that
like we said at the beginning,
if you keep in mind that the feedback
that you got is for
the
so that you can create the best book
possible
if you remember that. And if you remember
my editor and my coach, she wants me
to win because my win is her win.
She's not telling me this to make my
life more difficult. She really isn't.
She wants my book when it's out into
the world. She wants it to
stand proudly alongside all of those other traditionally
published books. She wants it to really compare
to those traditionally published books.
And
so, if you if you remember that as
you move forward, I really think that that
will help because
when we start to feel like she's just
giving me busy work or why did she
do this or she hates my book or
she hates my project or whatever it might
be, it becomes so much more difficult. But
when you remember that she's in your corner,
she's on your side, she has your back,
she wants what's best for you and what's
best for this book, That will help you
move forward, inshallah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. That mindset
Yeah. That, you know, the thoughts that you're
entertaining,
right,
are are super, super important and it's super
crucial to, you know, to really be aware
of the thoughts that are producing how we
feel.
And and I I was talking about this
in a in a session this week is,
you know, be aware of the power of
your thoughts to determine your experience.
Right? If you have
been telling yourself a story that, oh my
god, they're editing. Oh, this is gonna be
so hard. I mean, I don't want anybody
to think that it necessarily
is harder than writing. It's just different. It's
just different. It's like saying that, you know,
me my metaphors
hint. I love them. I love them. No.
And the crazy thing is,
I rarely use metaphors in my writing. When
I'm writing, I hardly ever. And I realized
that because I was reading Chantal Blake's book
which is brilliant. Masha'Allah. Masha'Allah.
I'm so proud of her and us and
you and and everybody because it's
it's it's
inshallah, it's gonna be a classic. I think
it's amazing. Yes. I agree.
She's got a really great use of metaphor.
Masha'Allah. She uses great images, right, to illustrate
her point. Yeah. I never do that when
I'm writing. We'd show up from my sister's
lips. You're not gonna see metaphors in there.
But for some reason, when we're talking about
writing in these sessions, I end up coming
up with these crazy metaphors. But anyway, it
is like
comparing the work of somebody taking a piece
of of limestone, for example. Right? And cutting
that down into the rough image of of
of their sculpture.
K? That's that piece of work.
And that now being polished and being shaped
and being you know, the the the edges
being chiseled and it just being made crisp
and ready for where it's going. Yeah.
2 different pieces of work.
Definitely. Neither
could exist without the other. Right? Correct. If
you try to do one without the other,
you will not end up with your result.
Yes. The 2 of them work together, 2
different pieces of work. And I do think
it's worth mentioning as well
that not every like, not
all first drafts are created equal. You know
what I'm saying? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And,
you know, you could be one of the
people whose first draft is is
is is it's there. You know what I'm
saying? Right. I can read and it's like
there. Or Yes. Either the first draft was
there
or
you
listened and implemented
what we taught you when it came to
your own editing.
Yes. By the time it comes to me,
by the time it comes to Coach Hend,
it's like, Oh, wow.
All we need to do is the the
the the the the the and Yep. You
know, this this is wonderful. This is wonderful.
How how common is it do you find
to get those? I've seen a lot this
week. The last couple of weeks, I've had,
you know, so many come and it's like,
oh,
all we need is the the the the
the the and, you know, we're good to
go. How common do you find them?
I I don't actually think it's very common,
Naima, because
I think
I think those
those
beautiful manuscripts that come to us, the ones
that, like you said, are almost finished,
I think that those writers
have
not necessarily, like,
education
behind like, writing education. I don't necessarily think
that they have that, but I think that
they have some strong writing foundations behind them.
And I think that many of the writers
who come to us have a story on
their heart and they don't necessarily have that
writing foundation to begin with.
So it's not very common, but I don't
think that it means
I think on on the contrary, the the
the the works that come to us that
need more work that finally make it out
into the world,
I think that those are just those writers
should be so proud of, you know, what
they accomplished because it was it was that
much more challenging for them. You know?
Absolutely. Absolutely. I I I I do think
it's worth mentioning how Yes. Majority of ladies,
as you said, who come into our programs,
they have never written a book before for
sure. Yep. But it's not like they're journalists
or bloggers or or people who have a
writing practice or even were, you know, particularly
good at writing. Like you said, they have
a story on their heart. They have a
message they want to share. They have expertise
they wanna share. And then through
the the process that we take them through,
where we get them to structure beforehand, where
we get them to plan it all out
beforehand, and we and we tell them.
This is like, you know, when it's a
memoir, for example, I find this really, really
to be helpful.
Once you've done your planning,
you're just telling the story
as if you're telling the story
to a trusted friend.
Yes. A trusted and curious friend who wants
to hear all about it. Right? Yes. Yes.
And and literally just just just write as
write as you would speak.
Yes. Write as you would speak. For sure.
Just tell a story from that place of
because once you've got the words down on
the page,
we can work with them. Right? And I'm
always telling people this, is that once it's
on the page, we can help you. We
can figure this out. Okay? Yes. Yes. Definitely.
Definitely. In your head.
Sorry. Like, we don't know what to do
with this. Yes.
Yes. For sure. For sure. So so for
you now, how
how easy
and by the way, Hendo, I'm I'm sure
that
you have a children's book or 2 or
5 in you. So how come you have
not written one yet? I'm really curious about
this. Guys, if you don't know, coach Hind
was actually one of the main coaches in
the children's incubator specifically. I know it's your
favorite program.
Tell us a little bit about the children's
incubator,
and and and why you haven't written a
children's book yet.
I I love helping writers,
especially writers of children's books because I just
the message is so the messages are always
so poignant even though they're so simple, like,
and I and I love helping writers
sort of unearth what they have on the
inside and just putting that out and and
and and children's books because they are so
short, you know, compared to a nonfiction book
or a novel or whatever.
You get that, like, you know, immediate satisfaction,
that immediate gratification when you read it, you
know, and you can read it over and
over and over in a very short period
of time and just I love that.
And I just I love the children's book
program because
writers,
they are really into it, you know. They
send us their ideas and then they, you
know, send us draft after draft after draft
and if you if you really follow
the procedure of of the program,
you can get more than 4 children's books
written during that time, you know,
and and and so many writers do. Some
writers don't. Some writers will focus on, like,
one story because they really wanna get it,
like, perfect, but some writers can do 4
perfect stories, you know. Yeah.
And I love being a part of it.
Published as well.
Yes. Yes. Yes. So No.
More than 1 Palawa. Has had
Yes. Definitely. Several books that they wrote in
the incubator
go on and read and get a publishing
deal, mashaAllah.
Definitely. Definitely. And I'm so proud of all
of those. Why have I not written a
children's book?
I don't know. I I really I don't
have an answer to that. I
I I don't know. I don't know. Maybe
it's coming. Maybe it's coming, Naima. Thing calls
to you. Well, the thing is you've got
the skills,
So when something calls to you, something that
maybe because
of, all of this experience you have seeing
all these children's books and one day, Ingrid's
gonna be like, you know what? Nobody's written
a book on this. And I think we
need one of this. Yeah. We'll get to
see it.
Love. We'll get to see it. We'll love.
We'll get to see it. Halas, so tell
us inshallah, it's been so many years. I
I think it's 5 years, I think, that
we've been working together. Right? Masha'Allah. Yeah. And
I know that this year has been a
year of growth for you and expansion. Tell
us a little bit about what you're working
on at the moment.
Okay. So,
up until very recently, I was with,
Strange Inc,
which is a nonprofit publishing house.
They will be sort of,
launching or further launching later on in this
year and,
it's something for all of your listeners to
look into. I am no longer with that
organization, but I wish them all all the
best.
Right now, I am
doing my own writing coaching
for
just women in general. Doesn't necessarily have to
be Muslim women, but I coach I coach
women in general on their writing journeys. And
I'm also working on
a
sort of,
a writing master class that I've been working
on for a while and I just need
to finish it so that I can put
it out into the world and, hopefully through
that help help more writers inshallah.
Excellent. I love that. Masha'Allah Tabata Kahla. Absolutely
love that. And,
I had a question about
no. It's not a question.
It's an acknowledgement.
And I think it behooves me to say,
guys,
this lady here, Coach
Hind, she is the better half of me.
Okay? She knows that.
And I just want to acknowledge
how you've served the Muslim writers community
consistently
for the past 5 years, mashaAllah Tabala Kala,
with so much heart,
you know. And I think anybody who has
so much heart
and so much
of you bringing yourself
to the table,
your skills, your experience,
and and that real sincere intention to to
help the clients win, you know, to help
the the the students win. Just the people
in the Facebook group win,
And we acknowledge you for that, you
know. And
I think one of the best parts about
being in the role that we are
is that we get to serve
people who will then go to serve others.
Right? Yes. And
we get the barakah
for the books even though we didn't write
them.
And we get the barakah for the impact
even though we are not actively the ones
who are speaking about their books or sharing
the message or writing and making social media
accounts or launching or anything like that, But
we are a part of those journeys, you
know. And I think that that's really something
it's such a privilege,
and it's been a privilege for me to
walk on this journey with you
and to have you
as part of the team just quietly sipping
tea.
Guys, if you know
If you know, you know. And if you
don't know, then you don't know. But just
sipping tea and getting on with it, and
never getting distracted,
and just staying on course.
We love you.
Hint. Oh, I I love I love you,
Naima. I really I it's it's been my
it's been my privilege to be, beside you
and to be serving all of the ladies.
Alhamdulillah. It's, it's a blessing from Allah. Alhamdulillah.
Alhamdulillah. And Jazakid Lakhir for those beautiful words.
I really appreciate it, but I've I've loved
it. I've loved being on this journey.
Alhamdulillah.
Well, with that, my dear,
I think that we will put links to
your your your Instagram more so now or
or what it where are you most active?
Would you say? Yes. More on Instagram. Yep.
We left Facebook guys. We left
Yeah. A lot. Facebook
and Twitter, whatever. What what is that? We
don't know. We're just on Instagram these guys.
And I do think, masha'Allah,
that the Muslim writers I mean, I know
that Twitter used to be the place
in the industry, right, for for writers and
editors and publishers and stuff like that. But
I think within our niche, would you agree
that Instagram is actually the place where you're
gonna find everyone and everyone is showing what
they're working on? Would you agree? I do
say I do think so. I mean, who
knows what's coming? I mean, I know that
threads is there now, and I know that
you joined. And I'm just, like it's, like,
so many things. Yeah. But I but right
now, it definitely is Instagram. Yeah. Yes. Instagram,
I think, will I my prediction is Instagram
will stay the home of Muslim writers specifically
and and the whole Muslim industry
because of the pictorial nature. Right? Because of
the pictorial nature, especially for children's books, Especially
for children's books. And and, you know, Twitter
will probably stay as more of a professional
slash mainstream,
where those writers are. And you'll find them
there. But, of course, they will have Instagram
accounts and everything now, but I think that
their main work and their main conversations were
happening on Twitter.
Tourette's
works differently.
It just works differently. So I don't think
it will be as effective for people,
especially building an audience and stuff like that.
I can't see it being as effective as
as Instagram. So, I say, everybody, stick stick
to Yes. Instagram
for now.
Definitely. Definitely.
Insha'Allah.
Coach Hind, Jazaakalakalukayr.
We are definitely gonna have you back. We've
got more things in the pipeline. We've got
some beautiful surprises,
for the community, Masha'Allah.
And I pray that Allah accepts
our efforts first and foremost
and rewards us for this work that we've
been doing and that we get a beautiful
surprise on Yom Kiyama
when we truly see
the the impact of these
outward ripples.
Right? These ripples outwards from these stones that
we're throwing. More metaphors. Yes.
But inshallah, that is when we will truly
see the the impact of our work, and
I pray that it's a beautiful surprise. Ko
Chen,
Thank you, everybody, for watching.
It has been wonderful to have you all
here, and it's been amazing to sit and
chat with coach Hinn.
Make sure that if you haven't already signed
up for the kids book in 5 days
challenge that you do. The link will be
in the description,
and I will put a link to all
of Coach Henn's platforms, well, her Instagram and
the work that she's doing for you guys
all to follow her and see what she's
up to. Until next week, inshallah. Thank you
so much for joining me.