Mohammed Hijab – Ex-Shia Muslim Tv Host Interview #1
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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Guys, today we've got a very special guest. His name is Allah steth hasn't barrage it. He is actually a researcher in Shiite Islam for many, many years. He has many publications. He is someone who's has his own TV program in Farsi language, which is one of many languages who knows how to speak he's multilingual speak four or five different languages. And he's with us today to discuss this all important topic.
Was that an a decent introduction that I cover most things? Well, you can sit down to like water cassava and to the viewers. Solar nonheme 100 layerable alameen wa salam ala Sayidina Muhammad
Ali Hassan wasapi, a Jemaine Lhasa ma ba ba, ba ma Manoa. Amitabha selenia Yo, Medina, amin
Salaam Alaikum. Again, to all the viewers interview Bravo, yes.
Everything you said is correct. Except you said I published a lot of thing I'm not really having it roads, books, maybe in the future inshallah. But yes, it's now more than a decade that I'm doing Darwin this field researching she suddenly issues. And my background is your status, correct? Yes. I'm, I was born in Iran. And,
and what raised most of my life in the West, and bife symbol visited Iran many times. Yeah.
And you speak Farsi fully, I prefer to speak with you wanting something for the camera. Maybe someone could
suddenly been on the go antigona as his argument, yes, I speak Farsi fully speak Arabic, and I speak other languages as well. hamdulillah. And,
yes, as you correctly stated, I'm doing this now for over a decade now. The most recent thing I've done, I was a host, had my own show and standalone Islamic TV channel, Persian TV channel. And maybe later on, we can talk about that a little bit more to explain what kind of Islamic means. I want to ask you the first question get straight into it. inshallah.
Am I right in saying that probably imama, or the concept of imama that she has believed in is the most is the biggest difference between Sunni and Shia? That's correct. Could you explain exactly what this is? And for the viewers to channel? First, let me confirm what you said. Yes, Mama is, is one of the are the two main issue, although some people might also add that issues such as the meaning of worship, what is worship and rituals that are very different between Sunnis and Shias are maybe even bigger than a mama, but everything really goes back to a mama, of course, because the shia sect in general, is a sect that believes that the feel of the mama, the rulership of the
Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam should have been stayed within the Prophet's family. This is just generally speaking, of course, when me and you are mentioning, she or she, we should be a bit more precise. She means a lot of things. So what do we say? Mm hmm. To differentiate, does that mean different things? Yes. To differentiate mean different things to the ladies who ruled Yemen 4000 years, it means it is a political thing. It is not restricted to two specific group, let alone to 12 individuals, it's not 12 amounts, was it? No, it's not. It's not amongst non group except the 12 verse. So the thing is, in our age in time when we speak when people use the word sciascia Yes, of
course, they need to 12 years because they are they happen to be today, the majority, and we're not always the majority. There were times for example, in my own country, Iran, where
before the Civil War era with Iran was a majority Sunni country. Just 500 years ago, there were Shia in Iran, even even when Iran was a majority Sunni country, but there was a these the vast majority. So there was a time in Islamic history with the vast majority of Shias and the world was at Is it true that so what what do she eyes or let's say 12 was in particular, what do they believe about the Imams? Well, the 12 of us have certain beliefs about the Imams which which are believed as in consensus. They have, okay, so I'm going to what I'm going to mention, I'm not going to mention anything, which is, you know, disputed. You know what somebody could say no, but this is, you know,
this, this is disputed. This is not mainstream. I'm going to mention only mainstream. Among the mainstream is of course, they believe in 12 imams who are infallible like prophets and federal life prophets. They are chosen by Allah and His Messenger by clearness.
means texts from the Quran as soon as they claim
and so we have 12 men who are apparently infallible apparently clear cut chosen in the Islamic texts and there's some other things such as animal * yeah that they have the knowledge of the unseen not as mainstream Muslims believe Of course we believe that the Prophet civilize Allah or even knew me and you we we know we have knowledge of certain things about the future with our Prophet told us Yeah, but you don't go around and say have the knowledge of the unseen I mean, in totality they have all the knowledge of the unseen they believe they know everything. I yes, they know we can go as far as to say it is literally the scribe their knowledge as well as knowledge. And it's easy for anybody
to check what I say you will you need to work on references, the references you don't even need to go and look for Harry's wife and say hey, you know somebody's saying Yeah, are you are you suggesting our weak Hadith or whatever? No, you just need to go and look the chapters of oil coffee and coffee is dementia book some sort of Miss
misconception about it they think it is it is exactly like the Buhari of the Sudanese it's not okay it's not exactly it's they treated different. However it is correct to say this is the most important and the most authentic book of Hadith according to them, okay. Not everything is authentic. I'm not saying that nobody should say this. Yeah, we should be honest with everybody with any religion every idea your G we should say only truth about them. However, when you go for coffee when you can do that and
and just absorb the chapters. The chapters For example, I myself on my show, I will not forget that this quickly. One day on my show, we had a show about the core beliefs according to mainstream Islam,
which can be derived by just reading the chapters of Allah coffee. Of course, a few examples. Well, there's there's chapters, there's a number of chapters about what kind of knowledge de noms have right this is important. For example, there are there is a chapter that the Imams know when they die and so on. Day mom's knowledge is like he has knowledge. narrations are under these chapters, that the knowledge of the Eman is exactly he knows every leafs every leaf that drops from a tree, he knows every drop in the ocean. Now me knew every Muslim knows who is described with this kind of elevate Allah subhanaw taala so you see these word games by saying about every Muslim believes kind
of in animal hate the prophet SAW said I've got some information from the vape Yes, but who said that the prophet SAW sent him which Sect has ever said the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam knows every drop in the ocean.
In the eighth verse calm Welcome to predominate. Welcome to editing my file, we will abiku accent and there's other ways to translate the last selling the profit that say I'm not something you have the profits and I don't know what's going to happen to me. And there's other verses, there's verses in the Quran about the Prophet not knowing the Muna 15 which unfortunately, according to Shia, the Sahaba amongst them, we'll come to that in a second. But just to go to complete that one, they have this verse in the Quran a verse in the Quran, the professor said, I'm not aware of the motherfucking Medina Yeah. So somebody who's not aware, I think all of these we can put it in the description man
people can do their research. If this is the Quran, Tenzin German from Allah subhanaw taala describing the prophet in that way, then you have a religion with 12 people after him know every leaf that drops from a tree no every drop there is an ocean. These are not had these Sahiba Ah, so somebody can reject it. Okay. Chapters outputs and people of knowledge know that it's a sucky if a scholar puts chapters. Why does he put these chapters to fill in beliefs. For example, coffee or coffee is divided into three fasulo coffee, or over to coffee and so on. pseudo coffee is the main body of coffee, where they derive their beliefs from one of the belief which is Hulu. exaggeration
with the amounts we believe is the belief about the way they believe about the amounts as in regards to a lot of hype. What evidences do she has have from the Quran or from the Sunnah, that everyone is basically Sudanese and she has agree on that this email is correct.
Or true on a mama as in a mom of 12 alarms that has to be obeyed after the prophet SAW herself. Well, of course she is like every other sec for the main belief have filled books claiming that it's very clear and the poor are very clear and the sooner the mama of early and a mom of the Second Amendment has earned any money.
31 a hurricane and a mom of the fall from Alabama Hussein and then Alberta and so they're gonna call them and so on so forth. Okay. There's no doubt about it that have written a lot, but the thing is,
we believe in regard to what they use as evidence is that all these evidences are shallow, they are not strong. For example, you if you want really now examples, I can tell you, the famous and you have heard of it.
I taught here they are also very quick and giving names to these ideas making them or your thought here I realize, you know, I thought here, for example, is not here. The 33rd verse of Surah Al Asad.
One of the first shocking thing is it's not even a complete idea what they recite, they recite in NEMA. You need a law, really at the bank of Orissa. Hiroko will tell you, this is not even a complete verse. It says it is cut off, but they call it a verse. And remember, in mosque and Shia mosque used to go
on the member especially they write the ayah. And on the member when they often when a mom sits behind him, you see on the top in nama, you read the law and then you ask what is the verse of purification? So Mashallah, and then you open the porridge. Oh,
perfect.
So let's, let's translate this verse with the rice right? In the mo you read a lot with a bank, which isn't adequate.
How would you translate this? Well, first and foremost, as people probably can hear, I'm not a native speaker. I'm a native speaker. I do speak English since childhood was not my mother tongue. So I will try my utmost to translate from just a very early in the morning in the hospital like certainly Allah subhanaw taala in a movie that he wants to lose his van come keep away mama Verily Allah in the Marie de la Verily, Allah wants to keep the lolly Nkrumah, rich, rich is a form of of imperative. He wants to remove imperative from you in the cinema you read only
a little bit.
Allah to Allah wants to wants to remove the racism from you a little bit. So this brother, what's this got to do with them? Well, they use this as one of the, one of the if not the back could be Escalade among them, some of them. There's iolanda, but it's definitely one of the most strongest evidences they use against the rest of the Muslims to say no, we are on the truth. Okay, so our belief is right, where does it say anywhere in that verse, so you got to follow 12 imams are infallible and that know that? Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's the thing. That's whether this is where orthodoxy comes
in the last 100 and 1000 years, so nothing to do with new movements. It is Sunni Islam in general, which rejects me rejects believe in 12 infallible imams does not reject this 12 personalities, by the way. Yeah, it's very important for me, especially our historical bosses and my circle figures. They were historical figures, there were scholars they were praised there was they were praised by the biggest scholars of Islam in the hobby in
scheffel, Islam even taymiyah there is not a single Sunni scholar who did not praise these imams No, the only thing we disagree with, is
it the same way we disagree with the person with the version of Jesus in Trinity is in the in the in the pole ism form. Paul is in form of Christianity, we don't accept it. We don't accept it to be the true religion of Jesus. We don't accept Christianity, any form of Christianity to be a reflection of Jesus. Please say we don't accept the 12 ism or any other ism. She ism is a form of reflection of the beliefs of this person. What about the sadhana because there's there are heavy says that the Prophet says aftermovie 12 beliefs for example? Yeah, now we go from the ayah they use we talked about the thought here, which we don't believe is a strong evidence because it mentions First of
all, debate in general, it talks about that Allah wants to purify them, and anybody who reads the whole verse and I think he we forgot to go back. The first is cut is cut by them cut as in when when they normally sort of work hard enough to BeautyCon first look into the profits wives, its total profits life, of course, and then come You know, we can talk discuss hours now from then say, why is the does it the changes to the masculine form? comb? Yep, this is answered by anybody who has little knowledge that will bait his mother car with a car means his masculine and masculine must be addressed, and the masculine form so that's why you say Assalamualaikum a little bit. Even if there
are
four wives and one husband, why do you say Allah commview you an Arab, you native Arab? And when I asked you why do I say a Salama when I see somebody for example with his four wives. Let's say we understand what the professor said.
When I say Assalamualaikum a little bit I mean why do I say Allah como over there for woman? Because obviously because in Arabic This is a guy that this is these are rules in Arabic language obvious that
one main person is enough in the group to make it to make it masculine so this is about divorce and this other word versus the use of course then you ask about dishonor the lot and he probably said in English the way they
drive evidence is exactly the way they do this. Just our say as an actual person. Yeah. Just like the Hajaj the evidence is from the poor Animoto shabby, which means a majority Francaise and biggest right just as the whole judge the evidence is clear cut so called click Evans is a watershed and biggest from the Quran Simon Okay, so what about this? It says 12 lead is after the you know the you use this when you have some experience Bring me the strongest evidence that you know, that you know of from the sun bring me this this is the one I would say this is the 1212 leaders. The Prophet said that this is a Sahih Hadith found in many different books of Hadith Actually, yeah, as far as I know
it's in his in this I have in my Muslim on on Buhari definitely one of the books. Nobody rejects the Hadith. Nobody hides the Hadith. But the thing is,
I believe that if somebody wants the truth, and does proper research, and this is unfortunately my experience, even myself when I used to be sharing most of the time I spent
was, and this is what scholars scholars of Islam say they say, the people love the truth, the people of the Sunnah. They, they they see the Kitab. In the sauna, they see the book of Allah, they see the motor waters on the master, it's on a clear cut, the beliefs are in front of them.
And then believe in it. Yeah, the people have false hood. They make our beliefs and then they look for the evidence superimposing their own zactly then they look forward to somehow construct the evidence.
Whole effect that I mentioned by the professor.
So are they the 12 infallible imams that we must follow? And does it say that in the Hadith he already gave the answer the prophets a lot of them said 12th, hula.
Or in other narrations, virgins, Amara Amara, as the JAMA is the plural of Amir. So the Prophet sallallahu. wasallam is speaking here about people who actually wrote
and you see, this is the problem with people who are attached to these number games. Yeah, when pick up a wiser 12.
It doesn't matter where it's 12, or 14 or 16 proposals, and I'm speaking what we won't do now a full explanation of the Hadees. But the Prophet says that Islam will be Aziz, and he will be powerful, respected, and so on. As long as these 12 rule, none of them have proved none of them, none of them have ruled. And, and that's one more thing. The problem is really with this word with these number games. No, do you how many disciples had Jesus had 1212, and one of them became what was a good one, one of them became really, really bad, really bad. So you see, we can, if we want to play this, these kind of games, because there's 12, as mentioned there, well, Jesus had 12 disciples, one of
them was a big time on Africa a few.
So about Moses, he had 12 tribes.
Anyway, this belief of 12 I, yesterday I saw a from the Torah that this belief of 12 is sticking from the Torah and, and the Prophet sallallahu sallam, we have them automotive. So now, all these praises of debate. The problem is, and I said really is actually because I was, I had the same problem. And due to I believe, this is my personal opinion due to bias due to growing up in that environment. Due to I believe she is in is really much by default sectarian because look, I remember I used to be She is our is the dour they do, for example, is addressed to who is so nice. They go after, and mostly especially
innocent Sudanese, gullible Sudanese, who don't have much knowledge. Whereas, whereas the Muslims, the majority of the Muslims are that I was addressed to the to everybody and especially for non mainstream Muslims. Exactly. So because this mentality that she has from early childhood, and especially when he's religious from his religious family, they are looking looking looking for any evidence where they can construct their belief. Were you part of that? Did you fall into that when you were?
I can't believe that any shade it does not fall in it. I believe that the vast majority of shares were religious, we're talking about religious shares. They fall into this looking copy pasting and discussing, looking to somehow you know, to fill that narrative to Yes.
call it desparation. Can I ask you now in regards to the this is another issue of the Sahaba and emigrate. And the relationship between the two because one very key tenant for Shia people is that they say, look, the prophet Mohammed said, and in the surah Solomon said in haritha, calayan, and many Hadees we have as notarized, we have is at least very strong, authentic, and albox terex if you can meet a fever and Temasek can be lent to the loo. I had.
Never that so. So the Prophet said that, you know, I've left with you two things in neat article feeco methacholine okitama, la vida to submit solidity and elevate so the point is, all of these different constructions or different physiologies of the Prophet Muhammad, Susannah was telling us that there's going to have something that's going to leave his left behind two things, which is the guitar Bella and that will bait meaning the prophets family. So this for the CIA is clear evidence says, Yeah, that you should be following elbaite and you should not be following the Sahaba.
I say who said that as soon as dofollow elbaite.
You know, this is a who said,
we believe that Abdullah bin Abbas is a little bit and who is Abdullah bin Abbas and what do we call it in Arabic? habra Lama, how do you translate into English is you know, have you considered the scholar one of the scholars? Yeah, yeah, who taught Jamil haoran we say he's the translator in the Quran as a Mufasa. Yeah. So
it's not from Alabama.
But studies will elevate So for us, Abdullah bas Oman in Arusha Olive in Abu polyp, all of them are mine, all of them are from a debate so they say no, that is the key sir. They say Look, look, let me play the devil's advocate here. Okay, so no, no, it's not the way it's not the way it is. Because the Prophet said clearly when the verse title came in the movies Allahu the banquet is elevated with terracotta he said that underneath the cloak and had it
had in Fatima and Hassan Hassan Ali and himself that's why we call this scenario they how you say they reduce a constraint, the constraint constraint there or a certain number confine it. Yeah, that's the word. Okay, first of all, just to complete what I wanted to say is that first of all, we this is the You see, this is where the first misconceptions really starts. Yeah, like that's why in Arabic They always say the scholars in Arabic They call us the call the call Muslims are Ma, which means the communists or they call them macdonnell Sahaba. The School of the Sahaba or maktab Al Bayt matassa. albedo this itself is wrong. Originally you should get offended you know Sudanese believed
they follow the prophet SAW Selim, the only and real Natsume The only real infallible and his companions and his family Yeah, despite whatever it's gonna fall to happen. They had one aqidah one one creed one aqeedah and among them eyelid bait and soon as if taken from Abdullah bin Abbas is one of the main he's a harsher me one of the main mufa serene and among them is
another thing just to mention quickly, a very good friend of mine, also researcher he
and I translated an article for him from Arabic which is a disrupt this is a huge task, whoever the shape who to translate who did the research it was about who narrated more from the debate Sunni or Shia authentic with proper chains of narrations Okay, I found this article Arabic and said I need to translate this I translated it and give it to a number of websites.
The result was that eliminated before Did you know and I know that most families don't even know that I live in Abu Talib narrated more Sahara Hadith, authentic hadith. And our books then Abu Bakar and Mr. Usman together as because of his age, isn't it? Not just because of his age, this is what well, it's but it's not just just because of that it is also because
Abu Bakar for example, if you read what the scholars wrote about in our book, it was more known and it as well but even more so was known as a fucky. And so was amor they were not known as you had deteriorated too much. Okay, another thing in the Muslim Ummah magnet, only one Salif narrates more than Ali as armour. Radovan, Yanni Abu Bakr and Osman generates more than what kind of man so is there any contradiction at all in accepting
you know, Amara, for example, or Othman of workers, etc. These what we can consider companions and
others are companions like that, that just shows obviously not don't accept, and also at the same time accepting database without profit. No, of course as mainstream Muslims, his answer was yes, of course. We believe there is no contradiction. Yeah.
Of course at the same time, we do not believe
As Some people claim, like the likes of Nasha Juan he will say the Sudanese do not discuss these things and they're not prepared to debate these things. We just we have written all scholars before me and you were born and our grandparents were born have written about these things have written about fitten that happened after the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam problems that was between once a hobby and another hobby one's happiness hobby for my hubby nobody denies these things. What we believe firmly is that this habit and this hobby sahabas includes elevate the deshalb elevate, elevate avatar
all these great personalities, they had one creed one belief one belief system and they were especially the debate did not share any of the beliefs of the 12 hours okay and this is what we firmly believe then of course, this opens then a number of other doors for discussions and for debates and to discuss this further but this is our firm belief we do not I remember when I used to be here a they used to say as soon as you believe love debate, but that's not enough. This is how I used to make data to innocence in these two ignorance among them since I'm innocent Sony for example came to me say I do love it What do you want from me? I love I love it I love it.
Yeah, but you love the enemies of Arabic as well. See, that's the catchy thing that's what the what the enemies of Allah you think Abu lahab
Iblees Agha Of course it's the closest friends
it's his wives and so on so forth. Now that needs to be dismantled Let's be disproved and that's it can and it has been topic really it's a whole different topic we have we have you friends references which we're gonna put a description box I put it there friends of mine colleagues of mine when when we run websites, literally every shop every logical conceptual doubts that they may race or have raised and do raise constantly Amata does abubaker that I said it is so not unknown to us. There's answers to this you know, especially with Iranians who say or claim their actions
I often heard this is my life this oh no this Iran is most of them in the West whenever really she has in real power in the first place. You are not real Shia. I say nobody should say these things. I don't even like when Muslims hear somebody leaving Islam so you never been a real Muslims in the first place. Why saying such a thing? Is it impossible to become a motet is impossible to comment. apostate. If not Muslim, Jew Jew become Muslim. I don't know Muslim comes atheists Shia because there is even a video maybe somehow we included in this clip, famous video of Hassan Hassan line Arabic unfortunate nobody has translated it, where he says many people have become Sunni. He says it
in a football. Imagine 1000s of followers in front of them and millions of views he has. He says many people have become Sony from shears promotions. And then he says and many Sony shares. So it's so nice if you can share let everybody actually I really I have to give credit where credit's due. I liked it. I said okay, look this man, at least
not pro him. And it's definitely not a favorite. But this is the stance people generally should have. Yeah. So I want to pause for a break now. Because you mentioned actually who's who's a famous, really are describing him as a Shiite apologist or Sunni, Shiite apologists to Satanism. But he doesn't have lectures as well. And he's recently come up with a very provocative lecture. And this is a clip, hopefully that you guys could benefit from.
Someone says, Well, how do I know you're not concealing your face? 24 seven, me conceal my face. You want to debate me? Come and debate me.
He wants to debate he wants to talk. He wants to be out. He wants to discuss his views. And he wants to discuss them openly. And this is exactly what we want. We invite you to come and talk to us and see whether we have the hack or not.
What do you think of that? What do you think of this of this clip? Well, for the benefit of the viewers, we should quickly summarize what is it about? So
Rashid is challenging accepting, no, no, he is challenging Max awani tshwane. He said in the clip, I'm ready. Don't do tapir debate me. So we have here a historian. We have here a known person who is a Sunni Muslim who says I'm ready to discuss these things. And what is important for the view of Islam is that number one in this year's one of his lectures, very provocative lecture. He said that the root of terrorism, the past they used to say is wahabis
I don't know, whatever sec. No, he literally said this Have I mentioned names. I will work with Omar and harden. Walid is a butcher or whatever term he used for him, criminals, and so on and so forth. So, and I watched the whole, you asked me regarding this clip, I watched his whole lecture. And what many people don't know is this is not a new word you say in English or rhetoric. It's not new.
Yes, in the past, like few years ago, he wasn't like this. But last year, he had a similar lecture. And
interesting for me was when I watched the whole lecture is that he said, You know, they can discuss everything the Sundays, they can discuss Salahuddin, they can discuss for too hard for too had conquest, conquest, where they take pride in and so on and so forth. But not the fitten. The trials after the prophet SAW Selim the wars that happened between Sahaba Oh, don't talk about this.
He claims that this is the Sunni attitude. So that we all let's say, we are scholars or preachers or researchers to hide this from the arm from the, from the communists, which is nonsense. Yeah, I think it's unfortunate that he's the one who's kind of made the challenge. Now, he's made a sort of career out of being an apologist to Satanism. And he's never actually had one discussion with a Sunday. This reminds me of,
of a dear friend, who helped me in the early stages, when I left us and said to me take for machine a, his, all these references, and what they used to do and copy paste, and somebody says, what you need, these are the evidences, we're talking about what she is normally do, maybe you have experience with it, they bring you some random statement, random Hadith, and then they put you know, a whole train of Sunni references. And then you see kansal, Amal, and, you know, usually weak sources, sources, late sources, for example, one of the sources that often uses canceled or model of 1000 years of the Hydra region. And if they use sources of authentic sources, then they are taken
out of context, that they, their interpretation is forced on it. So his advice or statement was, he said to me, take from them these things, what they normally copy and paste and sit with them, and discuss. So that's why I,
I really appreciate the staff, the
anonymous sheet has challenged number one, and with the challenge on its own, it's really a reputation because now Shivani said to his followers, 1000s of more shares, it is so nice, they don't discuss they keep this, you know these things about Sahaba and what happened to fit fitten they don't discuss these things. And then suddenly we see somebody who suddenly confident historian saying, from let's discuss this, and there are others, of course, and if this inshallah, if it goes,
the discussion actually happens inshallah, then people can judge, yes, I'm always, I'm always for discussion. And especially, of course, you give preference to people who are people of knowledge people,
like Sheldon Adelson and others. And but let's see if the likes of Nick Shivani, because he does represent we're not going to debate and discuss with everybody, this is also important. This is an advice I've been given in a very early stage on her if she's, you know, not going to sit with everybody, discuss with everybody. And same with you, you're not going to meet with everybody, somebody who's, for example, not representing Christians at all. We'll discuss with the main people know, Catholics and Orthodox and so on, so forth. So stay with us, I believe we should be careful who we so hopefully this will be something that he accepts because, I mean, it would be basically
meeting his requirement. He said he wanted someone to discuss he wanted to challenge someone, but it will be a discussion format and hopefully, you know, be the first time he's ever put his actual ideas and his references on the table to be scrutinized because it's very easy for someone to make comments in a mosque where everyone has, is basically blind to the references blind to the scholarly discussions. But it's a bit more difficult to actually come to confront someone or to speak to someone who believes in something which is opposite to you. And we hope that next one he will accept this challenge because because this will be the first time he's actually put his rhetoric to the
test.
duxton one person standing on a lorry and said And may I say and also reward all of you.
I was looking I was I was like, frozen.