Mohammad Elshinawy – Abortion From an Islamic Perspective
AI: Summary ©
The conversation on abortion is about the idea of morality and the need for everyone to have authentic traceable transmission from the divine subhanho wa taala. The speakers explore the idea of a window of time for abortion, including the importance of protecting the mother from the harm of a pregnancy, and the legal framework for contractions, which is a legal act that is not overturned by doubt or other misunderstandings. They also discuss the use of Subhan calculations and the potential loss of a pregnancy if the metal is not consumed.
AI: Summary ©
So welcome to our discussion on abortion from the Islamic perspective. And
I guess as a preface, front and center, why this subject? I mean, this is a subject of intrigue of interest and curiosity for many people it is it cycles in and out of the,
you know, major news headlines often enough. And also because within our personal lives, there is some curiosity about what room is there, if any, for abortion, terminating the pregnancy and so on and so forth. And so it's not just about you know, an intellectual luxury or just some curiosity, but because we are Muslim.
And what that means is that we are submitters to Allah azza wa jal and that we are supposed to be checking what Allah azza wa jal has directed us to and mapped out for us of lifestyles, or else how do we submit to something we don't know. And yes, it is true that our positions, the Islamic positions on abortion do not constitute public policy. So why are we discussing them, but they should constitute for the Muslim personal policy? Right, the Muslim as a submitter to Allah azza wa jal considers their religious truths as sacred truths, that they are committed to Allah by submitting to. And we do not live with the notion whether we say it openly or not of many people
nowadays, whether they say it openly or not, of seeing themselves as gods and their sensibilities as infallible, right? That is the dominant notion of modern selfhood. I see myself as the ultimate reference point to what I understand what I feel is what's right and what's wrong. We are not we are Muslims. We are guided to deferring to Allah on truths. And to think that everything has to make sense to us.
means that our God is our sensibility, our God is our mind, our God is our opinion. It is not Allah azza wa jal and so this is a matter of fundamental faith for us, as a matter of principle, at least, you know, even when it comes to the morality of eating certain meats, right, Allah azza wa jal said in the Quran, while at Kulu Mima la nuit charisma Allahu alayhi wa inna hula Fisk, don't eat, don't consume as a Muslim. Whatever Allah's name has not been mentioned over has not been sort of sacrificed in a permissible way with Allah's name mentioned over it. We're in a hula fist and it is doing other than that is a enormity of a sin. It is a flagrant sin. It is defined so Allah azza wa
jal, but then the verse continues to say and this is the part that is very relevant for every Muslim regarding these discussions of ultimate reference point.
Allah says we're in a shell Lina let you Hoonah Illa, Olia him Leo JD LUCAM. And the devil's suggests to their allies, they suggest to them fanciful language, you know, arguments
so that they may debate with you using them. We're in a bar to move whom Allah says and if you obey them in Nicola mushy Kuhn, then you are mushy, cool and polytheists you are those who have multiple gods you are those who set up equals to Allah.
There's a story behind this verse and why it came down. It was that when the rule was revealed that Muslims only eat what they have sacrifice what they have slaughtered, and they mentioned Allah's name over it Bismillah Allahu Akbar that's what constitutes halal meat Halal they'll be right lawful slaughtered meat lawfully slaughtered meat, some of them who should again came the polytheist came and said, You guys make no sense your your laws make no sense sensibilities, that which is killed by your hand Bismillah Allahu Akbar, you consider it permissible and then that which is killed by Allah's hand, look at the the framing Shailene right they suggest each other right? What is killed
by God's hand you consider impermissible, meaning if God destined that some animals die on the side of the road, you find some carry on some dead animal. You say that's not allowed when God's the one that killed it.
And then the animal that you kill that one's fine. You see where they're going with this. They kind of have some make some sense there for a minute. Allah azza wa jal said if you eat this meat, it's a sin. He said, But if you accept their logic in Nicola mushy raccoon, it's not a sin. This is shit, this this belief in Allah as the ultimate reference point.
And so
that idea of we are Muslims, we don't see ourselves as the ultimate reference point. Our opinions don't constitute our personal policies. Rather, it is the law of Allah azza wa jal, and His revealed guidance is very important. And the discussion today will simply be really an exercise in that. And it also could serve very much this will be my last preface in sha Allah, as a great reminder that human beings on their own can never arrive at morality, figuring out the rights and wrongs because you look at the people debating on the abortion issue. You have, as Dr. Delgado lead puts it, regarding a different subject when he speaks about the right and the left the Democrats, the
Republicans, right the the liberals and the conservatives. He says there's hobbled feel, as HUD will feel the companions of the elephant, then there's as hobble Hammar the companions of the donkey, right? Isn't that symbolizes their political group or political alignment? You say and by the way you check in the Quran, I was having feed and I was having him out or not mentioned the context, neither of them. The guys with the donkey and the guys with the elephant are always mentioned in a negative light. But both of them right bring it to the abortion discussion. They hold on to a position they consider moral which is pro choice and pro life, right? pro choice or say what? Her
body her choice, the woman should have a choice. Do you people not believe in choice? What's wrong with the world? You guys don't believe in freedoms? And they kind of make sense like freedom and choice are a good thing. Are they not? They are in principle they are. And then the pro lifers are gonna say,
you guys don't care about human life that babies alive you need to be you need to sort of defend the sanctity of life. What are you guys heartless, ruthless murderers? Saving lives is important. And everyone's gonna say you're right, actually saving lives are important.
Question, do the people who say her body her choice? Do they say we're pro murder? They don't. They just say this is not murder. You get it? They're not anti life. They just believe that this isn't an atrocity or isn't a crime against human life. They're just saying they're not alive yet. Right? Likewise, the people that are saying pro life, you know, let the baby live. Right? If you ask them, Are you against human choice, human agency, human freedom? What are they gonna say? No, no, I'm for freedom. God bless America, free country. Right. Freedom is a good thing, just not here. And so that is the whole point. That all we can do is speak about morality as human beings in generality. moral
principles. We all as human beings have a vague sense of rights and wrongs. But how do you reconcile it all? How do you bring it all together into a coherent system that is impossible for human beings?
Moral philosophers, and nobody's ever agreed on morality. And so the need to look to an external reference point, that's not pro man or pro, pro justice, pro mercy, right? infallible, external reference point is the need of every human being and we're privileged to have that we're privileged to have authentic traceable transmission transmission from the divine subhanho wa taala. Right.
And so let's make that our starting point. The whole debate regarding the abortion is really centered around is this really a life or not? We as Muslims are privileged to know through the ayat of the Quran, coupled with the Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam with clarity, because the scholars all agreed on this interpretation that the by 120 days installment has taken place. Okay, so that baby, that fetus is alive.
By not at they differ on what could have been before, but by 120.
That baby is alive. The soul has been blown into that personhood has been conferred, if I can borrow their language for a second.
And so what does that mean?
That means aborting the pregnancy after 120 days is what?
Killing a living being it is murder.
And so after 120 days, abortion is categorically forbidden. And it is a killing of a sanctified life
without exceptions, except one.
You know, my teacher used to always say when we teach us like the nuances of semuc Law,
there's an exception to every rule except that rule, except the rule of there is an exception to every rule. But categorically, it's it 120 This is sanctity of life.
The only exception is if
not killing that child will result in killing the mother.
Because we also have established legal Maxim's that we find them throughout the Quran agreed upon by all the scholars because there are throughout the Quran, there throughout the Sunnah, that established that what certainty is not overturned by doubt, right? Or another principle that you are to offset the greater harm by accepting or conceding to the lesser harm. So what is more certain, the life of the mother or the life of the baby?
The life of the mother, that's an established life. And this relatively is alive, but relatively speaking, is more hoped than established compared to the mother's life. That is why they would prefer the mother's life over the child's right? And why is it a greater harm? Remember, we offset the greater harm by the lesser harm, it is a greater harm, to allow the mother to die.
Why
these may come off as crude terms, but sometimes legalistic discussions come don't have to be this way. Right? That push come to shove, if we had to choose and hamdulillah with medical advancements, making that choice, the window in which that ultimatum is there as really shrunk will Hamdulillah. But hypothetically, and that hypothetical is real, it does exist, there is still a small window for it even in light of modern medical advancement.
The child is replaceable, right, the mother can have another child, whereas the mother is not replaceable. The baby can't have another mother. That doesn't add up, right. And so if we had to choose, we would sever the disease the branch to preserve the tree, the trunk, we would not sacrifice the trunk at the expense of what the branch that is the idea, the child is a branch of the mother. So that would be the only case in which an abortion or termination of the pregnancy can be opted for after 120 days. There is an important disclaimer that I should add here that all these numbers I give you 120 and 40. And all of that these were
used by our scholars in light of conception, or presumed conception. Why? Why is that important? Because in in physician terms, they don't count pregnancy and duration of pregnancy based on conception. They base it on the first day of the last period, the last menstrual cycle, right the last period of the menstrual cycle before the pregnancy. And so that actually is a little bit of a gap. There's about a two week gap there. So like prime ovulation when a woman most likely is getting pregnant is about two weeks after the first day of her period.
And so the scholars when they're saying 40 and 120 and so on. And so they mean from conception. And so if I say 120 What do I actually mean and Dr terms?
Give me back my two weeks refund 134 ish, right? That is the idea. And everything else I say here, add 14 days to it add those two weeks to it to sort of reconcile between the the two counters to metrics. So that is 120 Onward, abortion is categorically forbidden and it would be encroaching upon sanctity of life and the Prophet alayhi salatu salam said, lie as Al Muslim Mofaz Hatem in DNA malamutes Lib Dem and harana that the Muslim continues to be comfortable in his religion
until he
uses spills unlawful blood. What does that mean?
Means your ability to get forgiven gets extremely tight. Right
Right. Or it could mean your heart becomes extremely blackened, and you may not even seek forgiveness to begin with your your distance from the edge. So long as you don't spill blood, the spilling of blood is the greatest of crimes against humanity, right? The spilling of blood will be the first thing Allah azza wa jal judges between the slaves about on the Day of Judgment at the mouth.
And so it's a great act of oppression and injustice and murder. With that caveat, caveat we already mentioned then, between 40 days, which is how many
come on mathematicians 54, to the 120, or the 134. Right? Between 40 and 120. There is more of a contentious debate between the scholars why, because it is unclear whether or not the soul is in there yet or not. Okay.
And traditionally, in the early, earlier years, earlier centuries, more and more scholars, the majority of scholars,
or close to the majority of the scholars would permit for valid reasons, of course, a an abortion for a valid reason for a valid need up until 120 days, because they believe the soul was only
blown into at 120.
However, so this was the position of the Hanafi madhhab. Traditionally, they were the most lenient in this regard, up until 120. And this is also the official position or the authorized position of the Scheffer image hub, right. And you will find scholars from the other two methods who may permit this right from the Hanafi, or the Hanbali method that may permit this. But generally, those are the two methods that allow all the way up to 120. That sort of mainstream or like, very well received opinion, or very popular opinion among the scholars continued to lose popularity in modern times, it is still there, there's still a valid view, nobody can conclusively overturn it, right. But it
started losing traction in in the last few decades, especially why.
For a number of reasons, the first of them is what we're able to observe under ultrasound and otherwise, right, that by the first 4050 days of the pregnancy
embryogenesis is complete, meaning the embryo is pretty much formed out. And it's a fetus like it has all the features basically. And it just growing and maturing at that point, right.
So they said that, you know, this could be alive. And then involuntary movements are also there before the 120. Right. Interestingly, without getting back into it, and I'm not a physician, is that it is around the fifth month if you ask them others who go through pregnancy, and it is around that 120 day mark, even that, you know, the neurologists and otherwise and
neonatologist cover this or not Jehovah correct me if I'm wrong. They documents and they
often speak about involuntary becomes voluntary, meaning it's not the reflexive movements anymore, actually, the feeling of voluntary volitional movements happen around that mark. Right. But still within 40 to 120 there's movement, is it just like nerves firing is it just like reflexive movement and there is because you know, in the past also, and it built up so much more in modern times, miscarriages happen, abortions happen, right? And so, they see at 5060 7080 days, they see a lot of features in the fetus, right, when the fetus comes out. So, they say this has the form of a human being. So it should have the sanctity of a human being,
you get it that was traditionally and now even more so, even more so, scholars began to adopt an opinion this is not a novel opinion. This has existed from a very long time ago, which is grounded in one of the narrations of a hadith road muscled and another narration from per day for both inside and Muslim where the soul seems to be have been blown at 40 or 50, not 120 You get it and that is why the hand belly position
is that after 40 days, there is no abortion
except for
a serious need.
This hand belly position is the position that gained popularity nowadays and many of the fifth assembly's the world bodies of collective sort of HD head collective legal reasoning Islamic legal reasoning juristic reason
thing, they adopt this position because of number one, the medical observations now. And number two, there are a hadith to establish this,
to establish that the formation is done actually in 40 days, not 120 days, the soul might be in there by then I'm sort of like, really doing this a disservice by not talking about the Hadith and the wording of the Hadith.
And then you move back into now the first so what are sorry, serious needs with after 40. So 40 to 120 they use the examples because the reason why this question became such a discussion for the physical bodies was the Bosnian war. In the Bosnian war, there were May Allah protect all the Muslims everywhere, there was innumerable
episodes of mass * reported. And so some of that resulted in pregnancy are we allowed to abort from being forcefully impregnated by our enemies, right. And so because of that the discussion was there. And they said that this could be one of the exceptions between 40 and 120, the permissibility of those who wish to abort due to * is there, and they ratified this position and chose it. The second and only other example, that I know of that our teachers sort of communicated to us about these discussions in the fifth assemblies is when there is a severe deformity that we can observe now, within that period before the 120 day mark, a severe deformity in the fetus. That doesn't mean
the fetus might come out blind, or may come out deaf
deformity that would make life borderline miserable or unbearable for that child. Right? And or for their parents.
Like severe mental disorder, right, severe and utter dependencies. So like having a congenital disease, some genetic disorder that is incompatible with dignified life. They said, since we're not sure they're alive between 40 and 120, we would permit it there as well. Of course, everything I'm saying here is a high level framework and you want to consult on a case by case basis, if you have discretion for your personal lives. But that is the 40 to 120. Mark. Rewind to the first 40 days, the first 40 days abortion was permitted for legitimate need by
the clear majority. I told you the HANA fees and share fees went all the way to 120. So they definitely within the first 40 They're going to permit it right. The handbells I told you permit within the first 40 once again for legitimate need. Only the Maliki's the Maliki's do not permit any sort of abortion whatsoever. So they're like they've checked out of the discussion. They're not part of this conversation. They don't believe it. They and because of what you need to keep this in mind this is not this is the this is the official view of a bonafide legal school in Islamic law. Why? They're not going to be stranded for evidences if you ask them. They're going to say look at this
area, the ISS. Well I held on Nayak, Domina Moholoholo of your hammy when it is impermissible for them the women to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, the womb and what it contains is sacred. You can't meddle with it. Right? They're gonna say that the person in it haram you know, when you go to Hajj and Umrah you have to get in a state of haram. You're not allowed to hunt. You can't hunt the bird, for example, and eat it right? You're not even allowed to damage the eggs of a bird, according to the prophet Isaiah was set up, right? And so if you can't damage the birds eggs in the Haram, then isn't the egg of the human being more sacred, more sanctified more inviolable, so
they have evidences, right, it's not out of nowhere. And so they say that even the just making sure the age limit is observed. Even expelling * from the womb, or the uterus would be impermissible. That's it whenever sort of this
engagement has taken place this * taken place that's it. The only thing they would allow all scholars would allow this because the Prophet SAW Selim expressly permitted This is Alaska and Alaska is essentially withdrawal to withdraw during * and
and before the * is released into it, that's the only thing that would permit. So the morning after pill, they wouldn't permit it, right? Abortion in the first move, wouldn't permit it. Nothing like that, but the majority would permit for legitimate need. And they would say things like,
most of them that permitted would say but you need the permission of both spouses. You need permission for both spouses. Why?
Because having
A child is a shared right in Islam, the wife has a right to a child, the husband has a right to a child. So if either of them wants the child, they get precedence. Right? That's one. Number two, they will say the legitimate needs should not be fear of poverty, most of them would say that as well. Not all there's a discussion on this and disagreement with within every method, right? But I'm talking about the dominant positions, the popular sort of interpretation within them without him, you can't fear poverty, because that's like now a belief issue. Allah is the provider and he promises that every person has his own risk as his own provision. So that I can't be a reason.
majority would require that as well. But in general, if there's a legitimate reason, life planning,
life circumstances, you know, that the absence of one of the two parents from being there, the age the physical ability of the mother or the mental, the the earlier scholars would not discuss this, but it follows the same logic. And so the, the later scholars discussed it, and so for a legitimate need within the first 40 They would allow it.
I believe I've covered
all the way up to
conception,
aborting a pregnancy or
even meddling with a potential pregnancy up until Ground Zero. Have I missed anything? Any questions about this?
I tried to keep it under half hour as well, but I failed.
Like I said, after labor to catch up.
Okay, dang, you made me do it.
Does anyone else have another question? Because this is going to take long.
Okay, look, why did the earlier scholars believe more of them believe it was at 120. And then later on the majority until now continues to sort of taper off into a different position, which is that it might actually be earlier than that. Because you have in Bukhari and Muslim.
The hadith of Abdullah Han Mr. Rudra the Allahu anhu, where he said, had definitely saw the fullness of that the truthful and trusted sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said to us
huge Mao had to comb halco Fie botany Omi he or ballerina yeomen notice
the creation of one of you comes together inside the womb of their mother for 40 days as a not as a not for means a drop of fluid, right the seamen
are buying the Yamanote for film may Hakuna Allah cotton Mithila Dalek and then it becomes a a clot of blood.
Similarly, or for a similar time or for a similar time through my Hakuna Matata and Mithila VALIC and then it becomes a MOBA, like a chewed like substance mandala mandala right? You know embryology you look it up shows like The chew you choose something and put it out looks exactly like the fetus looks with the spine right? The teeth marks like that. It becomes a chewed like substance for for a similar period as well. So what are we up to now? 120 days see where they got it from? The Hadith. Let me just continue to Hadith for your benefit continues to say filma your salary, they heal Malak and then the angel is sent to it.
Fan for coffee he'll rule and blows the spirit or the soul into it. And he's instructed with four things to write these four destinies, right.
So that was the understanding of the early scholars. It was not all of them though. And subhanAllah you'll never find Subhanallah like a definitive truth, a rational truth, a scientific truth that is established that will ever contradict Islam. It could contradict an interpretation of some scholars of Islam. But you will never find the truth absent from within the general body of Islam and the Muslims. Some scholars, the majority went this way, right? Some scholars like the Maliki scholars, M Lakonia Rahim Allah. He said, No, you're misreading the Hadith. This is not some modernist revisionist stuff, trying to like fix up a scientific discovering Oh, no, let's, let's some PR No,
no, no. Centuries ago, he said Wait, no, no. Why are we assuming the word for a similar period? Means 40 days.
He said we have another wording of economists rude because you could have said this hadith multiple times right to different audiences he's teaching them for a lifetime with the Prophet is saying I suppose Saddam he says don't don't we have a narration inside Muslim that says that film may or Kunal
I'll have cotton fee then he can Mithila Derek
and then it's a drop of blood for 40 days. And then it becomes a clot drops fluid I'm sorry for 40 days and it becomes a clot of blood in that for a similar period. So that qualifier in that same 40 days is what he's arguing. And so in other words the fluid phase, the cloth of blood phase, the sort of spinal cord forming and everything else that you would like substance phase, all of those happened for a similar period within the same lot. Same 40 days make sense? So my Kunal Allah cotton fee there Lika Mithila Dalek so my corner Matan fee delicate Mithila Valley. That's a less circulated Hadith well established authentic, insolent Muslim. And then there's another Hadith of
Khalifa Radi Allahu Anhu.
That further complicates the dominant position, which speaks about more details and gender and all of that other stuff being done real early as well, within the first 40 days, the angel says, Oh, my Lord, male or female, right? And now with sort of medical observation, we say, yeah, like the gonads are sort of like differentiated within the first 4050 days, the bones are sort of there, the organs are sort of there within the first 4050 days. And so it's really must have been saying that all of this is happening within the first
40 or 50 days. So then why don't we just say for sure, the soul is blown at 4050 days, because we don't know.
We don't know.
And
the Quran surah tell me noon actually gives further detail. Allah says, you know, Allah created you from like, an extracted fluid and made you into a cloth of blood, and then made you into a chewed like substance. And then he speaks about the creation of the bones. And then he says, don't like a cylinder of almond Lahemaa I'm sorry, if I guess I want to vomit like Matt. And then we, in case the bones with flesh, right? Allah says thumb and Chanel who hung up on her. And then after that, you see in all of those phases of embryogenesis, the letter was always fair. And then and then and then and fair in the Arabic language, indicates a quick sequence. But after it got to skin, all that does
happen in the earlier 4050 days, when he got the skin, it didn't say fat, it said film. And then later film has not like fat, they both mean sequence, but Thelma means
Taraki, their sequence with delay. And so and then we made him another creation, meaning an actual human being. I leave now without him said this is insolvent, before insolvent, making him a different he's not a sentient being is a human being now, there's a filmer there. So it may be that the embryogenesis finishes all of it in 4050 days, and then Allah does not put the soul in until the fetus can actually sustain the soul.
The same way the soul leaves the body when the body can't handle it. The soul may only some possibly may only come into the body after the body grows to a point where it can handle it. It's hard to strong enough and its organs are strong enough and all of that makes sense. Sorry.
There's only eight minutes tech beer.
I thought I'd have to drag you through for more any questions for my sisters?
If there is a risk to the mother's life,
you know some scholars are going to say you need triple confirmation. Like three expert physicians have sort of like concur, some will say double confirmation beyond that is unjustified machete or the concept of two witnesses. Right? That sort of thing. It would be obligated to save a life
yeah, it'd be obligated save the mother's life. And that's what I'm saying in the shed. Yeah, we have this principle of the the obligation to offset the greater harm by opting for volunteering for the lesser harm.
And Allah Zildjian knows best.
Any other questions?
You know what methods they use for abortion.
I know that used to assume that certain things consumed would effectively terminate a pregnancy and that is why the Maliki's who don't allow any sort of metal link once the * has been contracted by the woman's body. They don't they say specifically, she's not even allowed to drink something that would expel the * from her uterus or womb. They say
that way but that's probably a scientific question anyone have some juicy details on how they do this stuff? Medieval times
okay
above my paygrade guys
sisters any questions
I can run away now
she's like a law played on help this little bit of overview was beneficial gave you enough ammo to argue with people no don't argue with people I'm joking. Know where you stand and and thank Allah for your deen that's the takeaway logical Luffy Kojima