Jeffrey Lang – Winning Our Children Back to Islam
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AI: Transcript ©
Doctor Jeffrey Lang is a professor of mathematics
at the University of Kansas, and
he has written 2 books on Islam in
America,
Struggling to Surrender
and Even Angels Ask.
And he's currently writing a third one. So
good luck in children.
He embraced Islam in 1982,
a year after receiving his PhD from Purdue
University.
He's married and has 3 daughters, ages 12,
14, and 15. And that's pretty much all
I know about. So
Alright. Tonight, inshallah, we'll be talking about
and those are his words, and he'll do
the explaining inshallah.
The exile of American born Muslims.
That's it. Alright?
Okay. I the exile of American born Muslims.
What am I gonna talk about?
Begin with with a question. What is the
largest
group of Muslims in America? The largest group
of Muslims in America.
Well, of course, among the Muslims, what's the
largest group?
Well, let's see.
Men? No, maybe not. Women?
Immigrants?
Converts?
I don't know.
Well, let's
just try to
calculate that roughly.
They say that in the United States, there's
somewhere between some estimates are as low as
4,000,000
Muslims. Some are as many as 8. Let's
take the median the median between those 2.
Let's take 6 for our
hypothesis here. Let's say there are 6,000,000 Muslims
in America right now.
I think that's
it doesn't affect the calculations all that much,
but let's say there are 6.
Estimates are that there is approximately
a million of those 6 Muslims. Approximately a
million of those are converts.
Okay. So we'll take the million or so
converts and put them on the side temporarily.
That leaves 5,000,000 other Muslims.
Okay. But wait a minute for a second
let's take those 5,000,000 and those million and
put them back together. Look at that 6,000,000
Muslim population.
Most of those Muslims are family members they
come from Muslim families.
The average Muslim family has at least 3
children.
Muslims seem to have like to have children
so they maybe 4 or 5 would be
a proper average, but let's say 3 just
to make it conservative.
So that says in a family of 5
Muslims we have of 3 that are children.
3 that are Americans born in this society
the Muslim parents.
That 60%
of those 6,000,000 Muslims are Americans
born from of Muslim families in America.
60% of 6,000,000 is 3,600,000.
Toss back in a 1000000 converts, that's 4,600,000.
4,600,000
out of 6,000,000 is at least 75%.
Somebody tell me where they
are. Because I go from mosque to mosque
to mosque around this country
to Islamic Center to Islamic Center to Islamic
Center speaking to Muslim audiences,
and I don't see them.
They're unrepresented
in almost every audience I see.
Oh, you might have 1, 2, 3, 4,
5 showing up at at conferences like this,
maybe even 10 or 15.
But if you go to most Muslim communities
about America and you go to their masjids,
you go to the community meetings,
you go to the community events,
they're not there.
Lawrence, Kansas, where we said this have somewhere
now the estimates are between 500 and a
1000
American
born Muslims living in that community and the
surrounding communities.
Do you know how many show up to
the Friday prayer weekend week out or the
community meetings?
To myself
and
one
other.
Where
is that 75%
The invisible 75 percent
that we rarely see.
Through the past 50 years, there's been a
large scale steady flow of immigrants to the
American to America from Muslim countries through the
past 50 years.
There were large scale immigrations before that, but
for the past 50 years, almost half a
century, we've had a sustained continuous
influx
of Muslims
from throughout the world.
And although they have created American Muslim Institutions
like MSA,
ICNA, ISNA, AINA, or I think AMC,
various
other abbreviations and etcetera.
The religion has not really taken root in
this country even after half a century.
Because in order to take root,
it has to take root among the indigenous
population,
among the born
population.
We've been here half a century.
When I entered this religion back in the
1982,
and I used to go to the mosque
to pray,
I would find that the composition of the
mosque consisted basically of
immigrant Muslims
and visiting foreign students,
and a handful or 2
of converts to Islam.
In the 19 nineties, early nineties, whenever I
would go to a mosque anywhere in the
country, I would find that the majority of
that community
would be immigrant Muslims,
visiting foreign students,
and 1 or 2 at most converts
in that
congregation.
When I go to the mosque today, the
situation is the same.
In 50 years, you could make you could
have at least 3 generations
of Muslims.
Where's the second and the third?
We want we're talking about taking the world
taking the message of Islam to the world,
winning the modern world to Islam, we're not
even winning with our own children.
So we have to start asking why.
Now we normally hear the usual excuses.
The negative image of Islam in America.
We could always blame it on the press.
But
let's face it, I mean over the last
50 years or so the press has become
a little bit more balanced.
Oh, you still have some demonization.
I guess they talk a lot about the
Taliban and the oppression of women there according
to the, you know, American media,
the destruction of the Buddhas.
But that kind of stuff doesn't really affect
the outlook of our children.
They could toss that off as prejudice,
and they usually do.
Osama bin Laden is public enemy number 1
according to the US government.
The Soviet Union is no longer the public
the enemy, so
Osama bin Laden will have to substitute.
But again, one person or the fame or
or disfame of 1 person is not going
to drag our children away from the masjids,
not from our communities.
We have to really start thinking more serious
about where have all our children gone, as
the song used to say back in the
sixties. Where have all the children gone?
Well, how can we find out?
Well, you could start by asking them.
But usually, if we if we ask our
children
why they don't seem to have the same
commitment to Islam, the same love of Islam,
the same commitment to its going to its
institutions and participation,
they're usually not going to elaborate
on their reasons.
Because they know that if they tell us
that we will not like what they hear,
I had interviewed young Muslim kids
at the University of Kansas and at other
universities
that have no participation
whatsoever in their communities.
And they come to me and they tell
me all the doubts they have about this
religion,
all the reason why they're skeptical about it,
all the problems they have with this religion.
I said, did you ever talk to your
parents about it?
Most of them said they always all have
the same story. I asked this question once,
my father just belted me.
Or I asked this question once, and my
parents said, you're not a believer.
Or I asked this one question, and they
told me if you keep on thinking like
that, we're you gotta get out of this
house.
So they learned not to talk about it,
just to keep it to themselves.
There are some ways to tell if you
actually go out and solicit their response.
In the past several years, I've been getting
hundreds of emails from American Muslim kids. I
really can't answer them all,
but I asked them
for their reasons or their whatever problems they
might like to communicate to me
that they have with this religion.
And
you'll be quite surprised
at the depth of the questions and the
problems that they have.
One met another method
aside from soliciting
information from them,
another method method is just go to the
websites and chat rooms that they go to,
to the various Islamic websites and the various
chat rooms and see the discussions that take
place
there.
And record that information
and start pouring through it and see what
their problems and their issues are.
It'll be quite it's quite revealing.
So far I've collected several 100 pages of
data
and what our children
and converts also because they're part they're part
of the American Muslim sector of our society,
charting what they have to say about our
religion, and what problems they have, and why
they're not participating, and why they're drifting away
from this religion.
Because half of the people that emails me
start from the
begin with this remark. I either think or
am no longer I either think or am
either think I am or no longer
am a believer.
I think I'm becoming an atheist.
So where have all these children gone?
Well, now I don't this is not
scientific because I'm soliciting this information. This is
not at an objective
poll, but you could guess what some of
the problems are and they're rather obvious.
One of the main problems are they have
is a clash.
They see a clash between the culture
that they grow up in, the surrounding culture,
the culture that helps to shape their minds,
and the culture, the religious subculture
that they're asked to be a part of.
This issue of culture class, of separating culture
from religion, of trying to separate essential Islam
from interpretations
of Islam, culturally based interpretations of Islam is
a central issue
among that
75% of Muslims in America, that invisible 75%.
And there are many cultural issues that they
bring up.
I don't have time to limit to delineate
them all, but of course you can imagine
what's on the top of their list, the
issue of the roles of men and women.
No issue looms larger
among
that silent majority
in our community, that invisible majority than that.
And the kids tell me that
they have doubts
about Islam because they see Islam as subjugating
women.
I don't want to debate the issue yet.
I'm just trying to share with you some
information.
If you wanted to debate about Islam and
women and Islam the other night, I was
for the other night. Just trying to share
some information and outline a very long chapter
in my book,
my next book.
They say that women are discouraged from attending
congregational prayers.
Some of them describe the mosque as a
men's club.
As a young men's Muslim Association, the YMMA,
1 lady run.
They tell stories how they were kicked and
thrown out of mosque because they wanted to
attend the Friday prayer
and not be shunted to some small dingy
dark room in the back
where a couple of other ladies are stranded.
Where they don't even get to see the
speaker.
And they have to sit in some closet
somewhere listening to the Friday prayer. They tell
me these kind of stories.
How they fought bravely and maybe with a
couple of other sisters and resolutely until they
were practically almost bodily thrown out or at
least threatened that way.
And so they stopped going, and their connection
to the community ended right there.
I remember when I was back in San
Francisco, we had 4 young lady converts. They
all converted around the same time. I have
no idea why.
It's almost a miracle.
Four students, female students
converting to the religion. They almost did it
as a team.
They they needed to sort of support each
other, to give each other courage, to give
it a shot.
They started tending the nightly prayer,
the morning and the nightly prayers, because the
Fajr prayer is pretty tough to get up
to and get the Masjid for, but these
students made it because they love to hear
the Quran recite it.
Well, several
men in the Masjid went berserk.
What ladies in the mosque?
One man
got so irate
that he threatened in front of the entire
community with the ladies present that if any
more women were to show up in the
mosque, he was gonna throw them out bodily.
The ladies didn't want to be the center
of controversy.
They stopped coming to the mosque.
3 of those ladies aren't Muslims today.
Women are denied positions of influence
in our community,
denied
positions on boards of directors,
Denied representation
in the community. Political representation, social
representation. We call that disenfranchisement.
We are not allowed to let your opinion
and voice and perspective be heard.
Community decisions they complain are made almost entirely
by men.
The women's voice is not heard except among
their fellow women.
But since the major community decisions are made
by men,
they're excluded from that. That's their complaint.
Women converts
so far, have
been a small exception, a slight exception to
what I talked about so far of that
75%
was a considerable number of lady converts to
Islam
that
participate in their communities
against great odds, or at least that's what
they say. That's what they're reporting to me.
Against great odds.
Because not only do these ladies feel,
rightly or wrongly, just trying to help us
understand why people are not coming that we
would expect to be coming. Why the this
majority
is almost invisible.
What they tell me is
that they're treated like 2nd class citizens in
the Muslim community.
As a matter of fact, they tell me
they're treated like 3rd class citizens in the
Muslim community or 4th class citizens.
Because they tell me on the top, you
have the Muslim men, and then next, you
have the
women from foreign countries, Muslim women from foreign
countries. Then on the 3rd tier, you have
the immigrant women,
Muslims. And then on the 4th tier,
you have the American lady convert.
Now whether that is rightly or wrongly perceived,
the fact that that perception exists
should be a concern to us.
What are we doing
to communicate that perception?
I'll tell you right now, a male convert
doesn't feel the same.
Especially if he is white, blond haired, blue
eyed, Anglo Saxon male, he doesn't feel the
same.
The day I became a convert, it was
as if an angel came down from the
heavens.
There were tears flowing from people's eyes. Brothers
were hugging me left and right. People were
stopping me in the halls congratulating me. Some
people were kissing my hand.
They couldn't get their hand keep their hands
off me. I walked the day I became
a I went to a meeting. I must
have had my my pockets were so filled
with people's addresses and papers.
I looked ridiculous.
I looked like the scarecrow in the Wizard
of Oz.
I remember I was driving home and somebody
said to me, oh, brother. If I could
only bring you to my country this country
was Kuwait. If I could only bring you
to my country, and they could see you
with your blonde hair, and blue eyes, and
white skin,
and your American accent.
I thought,
oh my God. I mean, if the prophets
and this message didn't work,
what's when what what am I going to
achieve?
I told them, what's what is this business
this color this color obsession?
What? I didn't know at that time. I
was new.
I learned I quickly caught on later on.
But I said, if I was what? A
black American and you drag me in front
of that audience, they'd be less impressed?
He didn't say anything. I
later learned, of course, that was true.
But back to the women converts.
They claim that they are
the subject of derision.
They're ignored.
They're disrespected.
They're marginalized,
disenfranchised,
ostracized
from their own community, that they are not
given equal status with other members of the
committee, especially men, but even other women.
They claim that oftentimes, they claim that the
women,
the traditional Muslim women treat them worse than
the traditional Muslim men.
Now I know it seems far fetched to
you. It seems like a fairly
open minded community,
so much of this probably doesn't apply to
you. But I found in my own experience
that Muslim men
could harbor some,
let's say, misogynist views towards women.
I remember once,
a lady
and her mom, a student and her mom
came to the mosque to learn about this
great religion they heard about. They heard a
great speech about Islam, and they were so
turned on to this idea that they wanted
to go to the mosque mother and daughter
to learn more about it.
They arrived at the Islamic Center. The brother
opened the door
to see 2 smiling ladies standing in front
of them, and he slammed it in their
face.
And he was quite proud of that.
He was bragging about it later.
Sometimes these prejudices and attitudes could go rather
deep. I've experienced it myself. When I was
in San Francisco,
we had an imam of the Islamic Center.
I'm not gonna mention the time or the
place or the era.
We had an an imam of 1 of
the Islamic Centers,
and he was accused,
and it was an accusation,
by 6 ladies.
By 6 ladies who attended his Arabic classes,
6 lady converts,
they accused him of sexual harassment.
They accused him
of making sexual overtures to him. He was
married and had children by the way.
They accused him.
I'm not saying the accusations were true or
false, but the community apparently felt otherwise.
He came they took their complaint to the
leaders of the mosque, the leaders of the
mosque had a hearing.
The women of course were not present, but
I was.
They took a written statement by the women
and read it in front of the community
members.
And then various community members, even the leaders
themselves, stood up and began to defend the
poor imam.
They said those ladies are prostitutes.
They said they're nothing but American whores. I
heard it with my own ears.
They claimed that they were b I t
c h e s's. I assume you know
what I mean.
I heard one
phenomenally
demeaning derogatory
statement after the next.
Despite all that,
I know you're probably thinking well, Jeff.
You're an American and you're just defending your
country then.
And frankly, I don't like to be put
in this position
precisely because of that reason. I lose some
credibility when I do this. But frankly, my
god brothers and sisters, if I don't do
it, nobody else is going to, because I
don't hear anyone else talking about this. I've
been in this community 20 years, and I
just never hear it spoken.
No wonder
our children
feel
separated from their community.
I'd only brought up one cultural issue. There
are other cultural issues as well, which I
don't have time to go into.
The children also complain
and the converts also complain
that there is an intellectual divide
that they have to face.
That they cannot seem to relate
to the khutbas,
the speeches,
the positions,
the thought,
the perspectives
that come free be from behind the pulpits
of the Islamic institutions in America.
They can't relate to
them. Maybe it's our own fault,
you know, because we've pushed our children.
We've pushed them
to become some of the most educated,
some of the brightest,
some of the hardest working,
some of the most
competitive students in America.
Our best children are going our children are
among some of the best students in America.
We have them in Harvard and Yale and
Stanford,
and in the all the Ivy League Schools,
in the big ten.
They're getting degrees in areas of critical research.
They're among they're learning things like,
oh, critical methods of historical study, literary criticism,
textual criticism, form criticism. They're learning some of
the most modern
and most revealing historical
critical techniques.
Some of them are becoming scientists.
They're becoming
leaders of critical thought and innovative thought in
America.
That is their mindset,
and they've done and they've done very well.
But when they go to the mosque, they're
told
one thing, and when they go to their
school and everything they've learned and everything they
become tells them to take another approach.
And I'm not saying this is good or
bad. I'm just trying to explain the way
the what they explained to me.
Because in their education,
and in their schooling, and now in their
minds, they're taught
rationalism,
cold objective
reasoning.
While in a community, the stress is on
tradition.
Following
traditional thought. Don't quest question the tradition.
Don't raise
difficult or controversial questions.
They see a conflict there.
A conflict of thought.
In the in their education,
and in their society, and in their entire
life, they're taught individualism.
It has its good and bad sides, but
they're taught individualism.
We teach them conformance
to community norms. Don't rock the boat.
Don't
don't make a fitna.
Don't create havoc in the community. Don't ask
too many questions.
One American lady convert
back on the West Coast,
she converted when she was 53
years old.
Her husband had died several years earlier.
She's discovered this religion by reading the Quran,
converted to the religion,
and she would be constantly going to the
leaders of her community
asking them questions especially about the role of
men and women in Islam.
Badgering them again and again because she didn't
find the answers were
satisfactory.
And she was attacking them on rational grounds.
At first, they
politely replied, and then they tolerate a little
more, and then they started to get a
little bit angry with it. And finally, they
just told her,
just leave us alone.
Keep your questions to yourself.
You are only a convert.
We've been Muslims all our life. You are
only a convert.
The lady had a reply.
She said, so were all the companions
of the prophet, peace be upon him.
Our community, the American community teaches our children
innovation,
adaptation,
relativism.
Our community stresses the eternal and immutable.
Our students
are taught critical objective research.
We're told we teach them to revere the
ancient authorities. There is
a they and they see it as a
conflict. They see it as 2 mutually exclusive
approaches
that both sides are unwilling
to meld to bring together the 2 approaches.
To seek reconciliation.
Since our children
since this great 75%
of must I might are you guys getting
exhausted? I could tie this up in one
minute.
I thought you'd want I tell you the
truth, I expected you to wanna throw me
out of here, but
Okay.
Since this great 75%,
at least,
this great 75% of invisible majority,
is told that our communities
are the true practical
model of Islam in America.
And and since they have these conflicts,
intellectual
conflicts
with that model they see,
They begin to have a difficult time seeing
the relevance
of Islam in their life.
They start to see this as a religion
that
lacks relevance,
perhaps is even irrelevant.
And little by little,
our
that 75%
drifts farther and farther away from this community.
There have been entire Muslim communities in America
that have entirely disappeared from the past,
and a trace of them left.
If you take away right now the immigrants
and the students from the Muslim populate from
the Muslims in America,
the masjids and our institutions
will be empty.
And those masjids and institutions will be converted
to some other secular uses.
The children mentioned
I call them children some of them in
their twenties, thirties, even forties. Some of them
are professors at schools,
doctors,
lawyers.
These second generation Muslims and
converts report that they have problems with other
issues as well, which I don't have enough
time ago to get into. They just they
talk about problems with classical Islamic theology.
Theology is a theory,
our theories we construct
trying to understand the relationship between God and
ourselves.
Theology is a theoretical
enterprise
of man.
They have disagreements
and problems with the classical mythology.
The essential classical mythology is the school of
alacery.
The other central school was the Mu'tazila.
They debated it out for the 1st few
centuries. The alacery's
viewpoint finally went out, but
our young people really can't make any real
find any real relevance in either approach.
They see even see major conflicts between both
approaches and what is stated in the Quran.
And part of the problem is is that
when it comes to systems of thought, we
always have to keep them alive.
The answers and the interpretations
and the work of scholars in the past
must always be reviewed, critically analyzed,
updated.
We always have to be checking and rechecking
the work of the scholar, because no scholar
has the final word.
This is true in physics. It's true in
mathematics. It's true in engineering.
It is true in the study of history.
It is just true in social science. It
is true everywhere.
If we rely on any century's
thought,
then we
inevitably
become stagnant
intellectually.
And we stopped
reaching the minds
of future generations
till finally so much time passes
where they can't even recover
the original,
irrelevant message,
a relevance to the message of
whatever area thought that is.
They can't even recover a link between that
message and themselves
because too much time has passed
and it's too hard work.
Our children, many of them are suspicious of
the hadith collections.
They learn all these critical methods of historical
research,
and now they begin to have doubts.
Why does that happen?
Because
the science of Hadith has now been put
on a shelf,
and we've are refused
to revive the
the Let's say, to perform that same type
of critical research that was done
centuries ago.
How many real Hadith scholars,
ISNAD critics,
math and critics, historical critics, how much of
that criticism is really going on today? Even
if that criticism only brings us back to
the same point we were before, that is
good.
But it's kept alive.
It's kept alive.
The great Indian
thinker, Iqbal wrote a book
about the revivification of the Islamic Sciences.
He said, this is extremely important.
We must always investigate and reinvestigate
and research the work of the past.
Either perfect it or confirm it
or confirm it.
But if you just put it up on
a shelf
and let the science die
and just rely on it,
the work of the people of the past,
then we become disconnected with it,
and we have the problem we have today
where there are children
no longer have confidence
in one of the most important
areas
of our community building.
They're complaining about
it. There's a huge distrust among them. Almost
every kid that emails me brings up this
subject sooner or later.
What are we doing to answer them?
And I don't just mean answer them. I
mean, answer them according to their level of
thinking,
according to their experience,
according to their level of thought,
according to the techniques
of critical investigation that they're learning
in American universities.
What are we doing to reach them?
They're suspicious of Islamic law.
They fail to see the relevance of that.
The key question they keep asking is how
much of this is religion and how much
of this is culture?
How do you separate religion from culture? They
keep saying again and again.
How do you tell what is essential to
Islam from what is not essential?
How do you know when some ideas were
added to the religion, and how do you
know which ones are essential and original
original to this faith? That's the question they're
ask asking. We don't even allow them to
ask
it, and we don't prepare ourselves to answer
it.
We need
to create an intellectual space in this community
where these issues can be discussed,
researched,
studied,
confirmed,
or revised,
we need to start
thinking again. We need to start researching again.
We need to start critically investigating
again,
or else,
we're gonna lose a generation.
Because we're not commune we will be unable
to communicate
to them according to their level of thinking.
And that's why we have to allow these
kids to come into this community. And when
they come into this community,
we have to allow them to voice
their concerns,
to voice their questions,
to make
their position known.
And then we have to patiently and painstakingly
and intelligently
and rationally respond to them.
Because as long as we fail to do
that,
we give them a we give them a
one way ticket outside of our community.
The type of scholarship
we need to have,
we need to revive
all the great Islamic
sciences.
We definitely need to revive that,
especially here in America where we are on
the front lines
of the confrontation.
I hate to call it confrontation,
but on the front lines of this confrontation
between
Islamic thought and Western thought. I don't see
it as has it has to be a
confrontation,
but right now it is that way. I
think one thing we have to do is
get out of the bunkers.
But in any case, what can we do
right now?
I'll take about 8 minutes of your time
and try to summarize that.
Like I said, 1, create in our communities
the intellectual space to be able to start
discussing things, discussing problems,
discussing issues,
discussing questions.
Because right now in our communities,
we run them like some
one of those
one of those oppressive oligarchies
that most of our communities come from,
immigrate from when they come to the United
States.
You know what an oligarchy is? Those those
where you have a small group of people
ruling the entire country, controlling
all the thought coming in and going out.
And not allowing any dissenting opinions.
It seems I've been at the University of
Kansas 20 years, and every time a new
administration comes to power, it's always some kind
of coup.
And then after they come to power, anybody
who disagrees with them, you no longer hear
them giving a Friday prayer speech. You know,
they're not allowed to disseminate any information in
the mosque.
And that group controls all thought, all expression
in the mosque until another group could somehow
or other manipulate the situation and get their
coup, and then the whole situation keeps starting
over and over again.
We have to have freedom of speech and
expression in our community or at least create
the space for it. And that's why I
like dress addressing Muslim student assays associations.
Especially
the American born students there.
If you can't find space to have your
ideas
discussed and expressed,
make space. Form another association.
Call it the 2nd generation movement. Call it
the 2nd generation Muslim Association.
Call it the American converts association.
Call it whatever you want, but create that
space where you could research, learn, discuss, and
live to the best of your ability this
religion,
intellectually
and fully.
But you've got to create that intellectual space.
A lot of scholarship needs to be done.
I don't think I've discussed that well enough
here today or made my position clear, but
a not a lot of scholarship needs to
be done in our community. And we also
need to have our community become much more
open, where
free expression exists, and we're we're tolerant of
differences of opinion. But frankly, my brothers and
sisters, I think that's gonna be too lot
gonna take too long,
my brothers and sisters, I think that's gonna
be too lot gonna take too long and
it's gonna come too late.
Unless we suddenly radically change our whole approach
to what we're trying to accomplish in America.
But we can do things right away.
We can do some things. And I'm gonna
make 3 last suggestions and then I'm gonna
say goodbye.
And I hope I didn't upset anybody too
much
today. But, you know, I really don't like
giving these type of speeches, I'd
rather give a cheerleading speech like I'm often
asked to give, or I'd rather, you know,
talk about theology, which is my favorite thing,
but I'll
I I feel the obligation.
When I was asked to talk about this
speech, I feel I felt obligated. So here
I am.
There's 3 things we could do.
Even though most of us are not scholars,
most of us haven't done the type of
critical investigative research I thought. Most of us
are engineers, mathematicians, or etcetera. We're not social
scientists. We're not
critical historians. We don't have PhDs in history
and the social sciences.
Even so, we could still do some things.
We could start to approach that issue of
separating religion and culture by just being as
Amina said,
introspective
by asking ourselves the question,
what if? Are we doing something wrong?
What things might we be doing wrong?
And we could start at to the best
with the knowledge we possess, we could already
start making progress.
We could start saying what things in this
religion
are more tradition,
and what things are essential.
Because in this context, we have to make
that separation,
because we
are trying to take this religion
to these Americans.
The 2nd and third generation and converts and
non Muslims.
And when we do that, we don't wanna
burden them with a lot of extra things.
We wanna only take them to the essentials,
because if you add something that is not
essential, you're gonna draw them away from the
religion. You're gonna obscure the truth.
So for example, it's a just a very
simple example. I talked about the seclusion of
women that exist in many Muslim communities,
especially their denial of the ability to attend
the prayer on the same floor with the
men as as they do for example in
Mecca and Medina.
Let us take that issue, brothers and sisters.
Let us just say hypothetically,
that even though that might be a viable
cultural interpretation in another country, let us say
that that is not strictly speaking essential to
the religion.
Let us say that we looked in the
in the prophet's record,
peace be upon him, and we saw that
men and women interacted
in the mosque in Medina. Oh, I only
need 5. Men and
women reacted
interacted in the mosque of Medina,
attended the prayers in the mosque of Medina,
that that was a family friendly environment.
Let's say we could prove that case,
and I think we can.
But let's say we can.
I don't wanna argue it now.
But let's say the seclusion practice that is
being practiced in our community is not really
necessary, essential to the religion.
You may have rationalizations for it, but let's
say it's not essential to the religion.
And now count
how many Americans
who were interested in Islam, who showed interest
in this religion, how many of our children
have left the religion
aside
because of that one issue?
Because of that one issue.
If that is not essential
to this religion,
if it is not strictly speaking
required by this religion,
and everywhere that is practiced that is obscuring
people from seeing the truth of Islam,
then it's not
the press
that is driving those people away from the
religion.
It is not some foreign it's not some
western conspiracy
that is preventing them from seeing the truth
of Islam. It is us.
It is us.
It's just a hype hypothetical question.
How many people
for how many people in this country is
the truth of Islam obscured
by practices and notions
that we have no explicit
divine warrant?
All those traditions,
if we imposed them on people however small,
they could be a barrier between them and
the truth of Islam.
And the Quran criticizes this,
says in no uncertain terms,
have you considered what provisions God has sent
down for you? And how you made some
of it haram
and some of it halal of your own
making?
Say,
has God indeed permitted you? Or do you
invent a lie concerning God?
He was talking to the mushrikeen.
People who associate with God that which is
not of god.
They make something sacred
that god specifically did not enjoin.
And it criticizes him for that. And it
says in another verse,
and say not for anything you invent,
this is halal and this is haram.
So that you invent a lie against Allah.
Because when you do that, you commit as
we all know
shirk.
Associating with God that which is not of
God.
And why is that such a serious sin?
Is it because God is a jealous God?
It's because his feelings get hurt?
Is it because
of some personal
divine problem?
No.
The problem with any kind of shirk,
making something sacred
that god has not made sacred, the problem
with that is is you obscure the truth,
and you place a barrier between the truth
truth
and that person,
and give them an excuse and a reason
not to even consider your religion.
That's the problem.
And the Quran gives trivial,
almost seemingly trivial examples.
It criticizes in a very harsh way
the Meccan polytheists, because they used to slit
the airs of cattle.
And condemns them for that,
for doing that without any divine warrant.
Something so small, you're saying?
Something so small?
The problem is is when you do that,
maybe you think it's small, but later on
for another person that could be give him
a reason to dismiss you with faith.
Oh, look at that. Look what they do.
I can't consider that religion.
That can't be the truth. That's ridiculous.
You know? Quran gives many examples of that
nature. I'll give you a very simple one.
The term son of God.
The Jews say that Ezra is the son
of God. The Christians say Jesus is the
son of God. That is the saying with
their the saying with their mouths. Imitating the
statements of disbelievers of old, of deniers of
old. What's the problem here?
Well, in the mouth of the Jews, yes,
they called Ezra the son of God. They
called many other Jews the son of God.
In Jewish history, in Jewish terminology, that means
one who is loved by God.
One who has a special relationship, a special
affinity
to god
that doesn't have an illiterate meaning.
So what's the problem with using that terminology?
Because what happened to it?
This terminology, which had no divine warrant,
no explicit divine warrant,
when it came to Christianity began to be
taken
literally.
Jesus is the son of God.
God the son. 2nd person of the trinity.
Do you know there are millions,
millions, tens of millions of people in the
West that are now atheists and agnostics exactly
because of that? They think the statement doesn't
make sense.
So by just introducing
a terminology like that without any time warrant
has created a huge barrier between people and
realizing the relationship with God.
So what else can we do?
This is the last thing I want to
suggest
Yes, we should be more open, create a
more open tolerant environment,
invite these kids back into our communities,
and be open and tolerant, and let them
have theirs you know, let them air their
opinions. Not and when I talk about kids,
I'm not just talking about kids. I mean
converts as well. Create
a more open
environment for research
and discussion. Yes. We need to do that.
2nd, we must make every effort
to separate what is essential from Islam, from
what is not essential from to Islam.
And we have to really develop some good
vigorous
critical scholars, Muslim scholarship in this country, because
right now, really brothers and sisters, I mean,
let's let's be honest. We just really don't
have any real good critical scholars in this
country. I mean, come on.
Most of our Hadith scholars are former engineers.
You
know,
most of us going around the country lecturing
have degrees in something. You know, we haven't
we haven't learned
real research techniques in any of these areas.
Let's just be honest.
You know, our scholarship compared to Western scholarship
and religion looks almost juvenile. I'm sorry to
say it. At least as far as this
country is concerned.
And I count myself
as much at, at fault as any of
us.
Yeah.
But the third thing we could do is
follow the model
that God
gave us in the Quran
and in the prophet's life example.
What model am I speaking of?
Before you know where to you're going, you
have to know where you're coming from. You
have to know where you are right now.
If I wanna get from here to Lawrence,
Kansas, I better find my place on the
map.
Well, where are we right now as a
community? If I look at the two phases
of the prophet's mission, peace be upon him,
the Mecca phase and the Medina phase, which
phase would you think this community is closer
to right now?
The Mecca phase, obviously. I mean, I don't
even have to make the argument to you.
We're surrounded by a huge culture
that doesn't hasn't received our message, hasn't even
considered our message.
And we've had something been a faced some
discrimination.
We're a tiny minority. We're taking a new
message. We're facing a tremendous jahiliyah,
to use the Arabic term.
You know, that's our situation. We're closer to
the Mecca phase.
In the Mecca phase
if we're in the Mecca phase, then we
should be following more or less and trying
to bring people back into this religion, the
Meccan model, following the Mecca plan.
And now if we look to the Quran,
we'll find that 3%
3%. You just take all the verses in
the Quran that are of a legal nature,
and then count all the verses of the
Quran, take the quotient and you'll find out
that about 3% of them
are
commands and prohibitions, divine commands and prohibitions.
97%
of the Quran
teaches ethics, the relationship between God and man,
the purpose of life, morality,
other truths as well. This the history of
nations in the past teaches us how to
be self critical,
how to use reason and faith, the extreme
importance of using reason and faith, teaches many
many major themes.
You know what I was taught when I
became a convert?
Rules,
rules,
rules.
If I hadn't studied this religion myself and
entered this religion and all I received were
rules rules rules, I would have left it
the next day.
Thank God I read the Quran first.
If we're gonna draw
these indigenous people,
our own children, that second, 3rd, and 4th
generation, those converts and non Muslims into this
religion, let us begin by following the model
established
by God himself through his prophet Muhammad, peace
be upon him.
What as he once said to Moaz bin
Jebel on his way to be take the
dual leadership of the community, in Yemen.
He said
as you all well know, he said, first,
teach them that there is no god but
god, and that Mohammed is his messenger. And
when they have fully understood that,
then teach them how to pray.
And when they become consistent in that,
and they've developed in that fully, then teach
them about
fasting during Ramadan. And then once they've accomplished
that, then teach them
what? About paying Zakat and making the Hajj.
And so forth and so on. He said,
make things easy for people and do not
make them difficult, and inform them of the
glad tidings, and do not repulse them.
I mean, you've all heard it
before.
You've all heard it before.
Do we practice that here?
We're trying to win these kids back over
to this religion. We're trying to bring a
community of people
into listening this religion. And the first thing
we do is get them in that door.
We tell them, okay. Okay. You, cover your
hair. You do this. Give her the gold.
Okay. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't
do that.
No. I don't mind.
I don't mind
telling the people
what are the Muslim behaviors and or or
whatever. But that's become our We we are
obsessed with only that.
I've attend Friday prayers for 20 years now
in this country,
and every Friday is the same thing. The
speeches are either political
about Muslim politics,
or they're about rules and regulations
or
somebody's diatribe about, you know, problems going on
in the Muslim community.
They never discuss
the other 97%
of the Quran.
Virtually never. Or else it's just brief allusions
to that.
And be tolerant.
When we bring people into our community, don't
expect them to
become Middle Easterners or, you know, Arabs or
Pakistanis
or Sri Lankans
the next day or ever even.
Give them time to grow into the religion.
Give them the space to grow. Give them
the room to grow. Give them the right
to ask. Give them the right to question.
Give them time to develop.
The Quran gave them
13 years in Mecca,
and then slowly but surely brought them along
after that.
We always put the cart before the horse.
Give them time.
If we if our kids come to our
community
not
so modestly dressed, it's better that they come
than not come at all.
We have to start if you know, they
have this or that problem.
If their behavior is not perfect from our
particular perspective,
it's better that they come and hear the
message.
It's better that they work out for themselves
what it is to be a Muslim in
America
because that's the generation that's gonna have to
take this into the future. It's better than
for them to be among us than not
to be among us
If the prophet and his companions adopted our
approach there'd probably be no Muslims today.
How about the time the man came and
he urinated in the mosque in that famous
hadith report? The companions were ready to kill
the guy.
The report says that they already had their
hands on him.
How do you know?
Because the report says the prophet said let
him go.
Go get some water and pour it over
it. You've been sent to make things easy
for people not to make them hard.
Let's follow the mecca plan. Let's just give
it a try.
Do I think
because I've said this to you today you're
gonna go out and try it?
No way, Jose.
But if some of you here
care about your children,
if some of you care about the people
of America,
want to bring them this message, then I
beg you to give it a try.
Establish a mosque,
a halfway house, call it whatever you want,
Make it, so that
people
who
feel shy to come to the regular mosque
will come to that as they are to
hear the
message,
and to pray.
Even though they're not perfect. Even though they
may have flaws that you think you see.
No matter what you see, give it give
establish an institution where we could follow that
Mecca plan.
Am I talking to the leadership of Masjids
here? No. Because they'll never do what I
just said.
Am I talking to the leaders of America?
No.
Not at all. They have their leadership, their
positions to protect.
I'm talking to the parents.
I'm talking to the young young Muslim men
and women, the few of you that are
here today. I'm talking to that second generation.
I'm talking to those converts.
Please just do it. And the rest of
the community,
instead of slandering them and complaining about them
and making up all sorts of strange slanders
and gossip about them. Just give them your
support.
Give them your support. Know that those people
are on a mission.
A mission to take this message to the
greater community.
I know that some of you can't tolerate
that, and I understand that. And as Harry
Truman used to say, you can't take that
kind of environment, so if you can't stand
the heat, just stay out of the kitchen.
But for those people that are gonna take
the heat and are willing to work with
real Americans,
and to show the patience
and the tolerance and the wisdom, and to
carry out this plan
that Allah once carried out with the people
of Mecca and spread throughout the world. For
those people who are willing to engage in
that, to invest the time,
energy, effort,
resources,
to take out ads in the paper to
publicize this venture,
please, at least,
don't stand in their way,
even if you're not willing to give them
your support.
I had a lot of other things I
had to say, but you're looking as exhausted
as I feel. So
thank you so much and, for at least
hearing me out.
And may Allah bless you
and
bless you and your children and your children's
children.
And salaam alaikum
Wow.
Alright.
That was wonderful.
Okay. We have, 15 minutes inshallah for questions
and answers.
And I beg you, please, please, if you
have a comment,
wait to the end
or come and deliver it directly
after the 15 minutes.
Unless you have a question and please make
it short,
come. Alright? Otherwise, please stay there, write it,
and they can answer it for
after 10:30. Alright?
I'm gonna say one thing. Okay?
Short questions, no statements. Short questions, no statements.
If you're gonna make a statement, I'm actually
gonna interrupt you because that's the only way
we're gonna get through this tonight.
Yeah.
Okay.
I have a 2 questions.
One question is,
for
a blonde hair brother.
I want you to know that I'm not
American, but,
in some way, you are not alone in
your problems.
Many times I came to Masjid, I pray
on the front of the other Muslims and
then after that they came ask me if
I'm Muslim.
So,
I'm I came from the part of, Europe
where other people didn't know that,
they are until 10 years ago that they
are Muslims. They are just like most of
us here don't know that there are 40,000,000
Muslims in China right now,
and they are suffering also.
And but,
I see there is
many negative things that you saw. I agree
with you totally.
But
during the your experience
and, your life as a Muslim,
do you see any changes in a good
way?
I mean,
I have experienced
in
the messages
where I went.
You you are true totally. Your your your
speech is true, and I agree with it.
But
in some way, from the male sign in
Islam, I see some positive things that they
are getting
to. And my other so my question is,
do you see same thing?
I mean, it's not.
Well, I would close that question. And the
other question is for all 3 of you.
If, you are living in community
which, there is
a merged or
Islamic center or community center,
And,
in some reasons,
they are elder people,
more
respectable
people.
But in some way, they are shutting you
down or everybody who has a new idea,
they kinda shut you down or they ignore
you.
You know what I'm talking about. We are
all facing, especially
our sisters in Islam.
So,
do you think,
do you rec, I mean, is there would
you approve
if like,
if you are if you've if you have
been long time ignored in your community,
do you think that it's a good idea
to separate from that community and or form
another new one?
Thank you very much.
I just don't wanna hug the microphone.
Concerning the first question,
have seen,
of course, I've seen,
some change,
among,
in the communities over the last 20 years
but from my perspective
it's it's
take coming along too slowly
because
our kids are growing up.
I mean if it takes another 10 years
before we you know make a little more
change then we'll probably lose another generation.
You know so I mean the clock is
ticking
so you know I'm really asking for
a radical,
introspection
on our part.
It's really needed.
As far as the other question, I'll I'll
let these 2 take it. I'm I'm sure
they'll agree with me. You noticed in my
speech I didn't
emphasize
separating yourself
from the community, but establishing
other,
ventures, other institutions
that don't compete with the community,
but work hopefully working with the community, but
maybe, you know, they will not give you
your support.
But, you know, and other, a
mosque that could be modeled on the Mecca
plan where you could draw people in, hopefully
it'll get the support of the community,
but, you know, that that venture has to
be carried out no more matter what. But
I don't see that as an alternative community.
I just see it as a part of
the community that's fulfilling of an essential function
of our
mission here in America.
Of course, the answer is no for the
second question. Otherwise, we're gonna have a new
community every day.
Or only.
Remember we said that Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala,
in his plan, that he's gonna test you,
and you're gonna be faced with different people
from different backgrounds.
And most of the times, these people, they
have good intention too, but the the only
thing missing is just knowledge or
they're ignorant or they're not they're mistaught or
they need someone who teach who teach who
can teach them and be patient with them.
And that's part of the,
working for the path of Allah subhanahu wa
ta'ala. However,
there are some cases that you don't have
choice
because you just you feel you find yourself
just just losing your energy, losing your time,
but those are really exceptions. You have to
be very careful,
and it's not anyone who can make those
decisions.
Unity in Islam, it's one of the highest
things, and it's really,
very crucial, and you we don't play with
it. So if there there are, problems in
the community,
work to solve them, and ask Allah,
and be patient.
Be patient. Be patient. And
Allah will help you do that. Unless there
are some really,
serious
exceptions, then you don't have any choice. Aloha,
Adam.
Ditto.
No. You you you can't we have to
be careful about this bit of making divisions.
And,
like brother Jeffrey said,
we can have other things that are happening
within the community that will work as assets
to our particular
Islamic Center or Masjid,
but don't start a new Masjid. Try to
develop the unity
and just the work that you want to
do.
Do this and build it in with your
your center, and in time, inshallah, it will
become a part of it, but you never
give up on your community.
Yeah, brother, Jeffrey Lang. You made us feel
very sad tonight
and broke our hearts
from what we heard about
our brothers, how they arrogant and ignorant about
Islam.
And they forgot the only woman
mentioned in the Quran by name is Mariam.
And the prophet Muhammad
mentioned many hadith,
how to respect our women. And when he
said,
3 mothers, he mentioned women.
And Islam will never spread
in this country
and in other parts of the globe
if we ignore the women.
We have to raise the
flag and hold it very firm,
very firm
and say
respect
women because they are
our daughters, our wives, our sisters.
This is the only way Islam will spread
in this globe.
We mentioned today. And
I will, for my part, I will spread
this word. And I hope everyone here will
do the same thing, inshallah.
And you too.
Okay. My question is addressed to sister Amina.
I
my question was addressed to sister Amina. I
you gave us a lot of things to
think about tonight,
and my question was, let's say we check
ourselves
and we see that we are slightly maleficient
or extremely
maleficient in one of these categories
could you give us some specific ideas on
how to improve
not just general but kinda more
specific.
You know, it it this is one of
the most beautiful questions I think I've ever
been asked.
And I can't believe this is being asked
by one so young.
Gives me such hope for the future, and
and seeing such a a really astute question
being asked.
Thank you.
As far as what we can really do
to change ourselves,
I find the most
important thing
is to
come to know Allah,
and I suggest this, you know, through studying
the attributes and seeing how they apply. I
know some of the the sisters anyway who've
been with me for the last couple of
days have been hearing a lot about this
in particular.
But
making a conscientious
effort
to apply what you will learn about
the creator,
Allah,
to yourself,
and seeing how it should influence your conduct
and behavior.
It's really not hard to be a Muslim.
It's not hard. It's easy to be a
Muslim.
We make it hard because we burden it
with so many superficial
things that other people can see.
You know, how do you tie your hijab?
How do you wear your hair? How long
is your beard?
Okay. We have all of these wonderful things
that we can judge each other. Oh, he's
better than he is because his beard is
longer or he wears a kufi and he
doesn't wear a kufi. And, oh my god,
did you see that one had a necklace
on yesterday?
When we're not looking
at at what's inside,
We judge each other very harshly. We make
other people afraid of us. Muslims are afraid
of Muslims more than they are of non
Muslim.
When brother Jeffrey is talking about the situation
of our young people, I spend most of
my time on university campuses, and most of
these young people
were born and raised in this country,
and yet they still connect themselves also with
another country.
And they all tell me how much they
are afraid
of Muslims.
They're afraid to go to the masjid because
they're going to be criticized for this. They're
afraid to participate in this particular thing because
they're gonna be criticized for something else, So
they just stay away, and I have them
tell me, you know, I feel safer with
the non Muslims because they're not so critical.
We change ourselves by, first of all, knowing
who Allah is, and you learn that through
the 99 attributes,
and then just changing one little tiny thing
at a time.
And I I've actually named several of them.
You know? Not judging each other.
That's a that's a biggie.
Okay?
Trying to exhibit the attributes of Allah that
should be shown through us, you know, his
mercy, his compassion,
not
burdening
our Islam
with superficial
things.
Don't worry about what other people think of
you. They can't put you in heaven. They
can't put you in *.
That's the biggest thing to remember.
Nobody, it doesn't matter if they like you
or not,
it doesn't matter if they tar and feather
me later today,
What matters is
between Allah and me. No one else puts
me in heaven. No one else puts me
in *.
Yes. I'm gonna come. Yes.
I wanted to I came late, and I
want to tell you how much I enjoyed
your lecture,
Jeffrey Lang, mister Lang.
I've been a convert for about 10 years,
and it really moved me, and it really
reminded me of my own experience. I've seen
so many, even men leave, you know, come,
and I see their faces, and they come
a few times, and then you don't see
them anymore.
And
it seems like almost,
a problem I noticed has been addressed numerous
times of, you know, you have the Arabs
over here and the Pakistanis over here and
this group over here and there's
no support group for new con converts when
they first come. I look at, I have
lots of friends who are Mormons and other
religions, and they set up
they do a much better job of keeping
committees or whatever going to to encourage these
people to come. But we get in our
social groups here and there and everywhere.
And then we have this lethargy.
I don't mean to be lecturing, I'm getting
to my question, but I don't know how
to overcome that kind of lethargic.
Me and several other
Muslims, American Muslims and other Muslims, have tried
to get things started for the kids to
encourage them young to develop their pride.
But it's the parents, you know, you get
boy scouts started, and the kids are excited,
and the parents don't bring them. They don't
sign them up. They don't see the importance
of it. The same thing with Girl Scouts
or when we have movie nights or this
night,
the kids don't come.
The people don't bring them. And we need
to
encourage these kids young to start developing a
pride and
start the kind of conversations that they need
to have when they get older, to have
that support group to talk to. And I
don't know how to that's my question. How
do we overcome that kind of lethargic attitude
that we face?
Who's here for 2, 3 years?
We hope you're not here for 2 or
3 years. Yeah.
I guess just keep trying, you know, to
keep trying, keep communicating that message. Don't don't
give up. I've been doing saying it for
20 years,
You know I'm still trying.
I don't have much hope that you know
anybody will listen to me. But you know
even if I even if I, die, you
know,
whenever. Even if I die with those, being
the last words on my lips, at least
I know I tried. You know what? I'm
not saying I'm always right.
I'm not saying that, you know, I,
that, I have all the answers, but I'm
just doing the best that I can. But
about
your comment about even men converting to this
religion and leaving soon after,
that phenomenon happens much more often than with
women.
The past year, we've had 2 converts on
the, Lawrence, Kansas campus convert to religion. They
went to a couple of Friday prayers and
they never showed up again.
And, it happens year in year out. Male
converts especially don't stay in the religion.
Somehow, I don't know what it is. Women
have well, women are just stronger.
I mean, it's just it's just true.
The
there's
a hadith from the prophet, but
before mentioning the hadith, I would like to
say something,
which is,
something for the people who reverted to
Islam. You might think that once you've reverted
to Islam, you're gonna go to the mosque,
and you're gonna find angels.
It's like when the well, it's like the
one who gets married, and he's expecting an
angel.
Right? Really?
And that's not right. That's that's not the
way it is. You're gonna go to the
mosque or the Islamic Center. You're gonna find
people
practicing Islam. You're gonna find maybe a lot
of
ignorance and misbehavior and mischaracter.
And again, it's part of that test that
you're going to to face, and Allah is
gonna put you through that test to see,
well, are you
really getting
to Islam from the door or from the
window?
Which one?
Now let me come back to the hadith,
prophet
The way you are, you'll be governed.
So and when it I I I was
listening to one of the, one of the
experts in, whatever they call it. Human science,
social science research.
And he said something really interesting. He said,
when you choose the behavior, you choose the
consequences.
In other words, if you do not
try
to change it, then that's the way it's
going to be. That's the way it's going
to last. And that's why prophet Aslam said,
the way you are, the way you will
be governed. In other words, if you do
not change it, that's the way it's going
to stay, and that's the garbage we have
in back home because people
are not doing what's supposed to
be done so that we change that dictatorship,
and people are just keeping quiet. So the
first thing is a test from Allah subhanahu
wa ta'ala. We don't have angels in the
mosques or in in Islamic centers. As wives
are not angels, and husbands are not are
not angels either.
And it's a test, and we have to
to to to choose the behavior so that
the consequence
consequences
are the right consequences,
and we have to work on it. And
we should work on it. And whatever you
do, and whatever you face, Allah, Subhanahu, is
gonna reward you for that. And what whatever
patience you have, Allah, Subhanahu, will reward you
for that. It's good to to to tell
these
things to the non Muslims and to the,
new revert Muslims so that they don't get
any misunderstanding
what Islam is, what Muslims are, and what
the practice and the real message, the difference
between the 2.
One more question, please. I'm sorry.
My question, doctor Jeffrey,
in a way, the 3 speeches, in my
opinion, complement each other.
One of the main areas you mentioned in
your speech is the lack of scholars here
in this country,
and in my opinion, that's number 1.
Lack of knowledge,
you know,
is one of the main reasons we have
of too many things we see here.
So
as far as I know, there are 2
universities in this country
which are teaching uloom ul Quran, uloom ul
hadith,
both Quran and hadith. And I just want
everybody here to know that they can attend
that either full time and or part time
basis.
The second, which is my question to you,
does it help
if American kids from 2nd or 3rd or
4th generation, as you mentioned, will get scholarships
in Muslim countries where they have
highly recognized
Islamic universities. You'll find that in Al Azhar.
You'll find that in Morocco. You'll find that
in Tunisia. That's at least the areas I
know about.
So does that help? If you have those
American kids
who will go there,
memorize Quran, know about hadith,
because
one of the main goals should
be 10 or 15 years from now, every
single imam in an Islamic center should have
the knowledge.
Yeah.
Yeah. I I think it could help to
send our, boys and girls to,
to Islamic institutions abroad to,
to learn from,
classical scholarship.
You know,
the the sciences.
It's also important though that our scholars in
in the West
also
come to learn and understand
and be able to
utilize
the
modern,
you know, the latest
and and,
the latest methods
and understand the the current developments
in the social sciences and in
and in historical and social science research. Are
you following me? I because if they're going
to reach
the population that they have to work with,
the population that under that speaks and
and communicates
and thinks in that mode. They're gonna have
to master that mode as well. You see
Are you following me? So I'm
so
I I think it's extremely important
that we urge, you know, bright young Muslims,
you know, to get education in America,
in the social sciences, in the religious in
religious studies,
in, historical studies. And then if they are
gifted, they'll want to go.
They'll actually want to go to the Muslim
lands because we want them to direct their
and like you said scholarships would be extremely
beneficial.
Current methods of historical and social research, and
then we want to take them and
learn of this great body of information, this
great legacy that we've inherited from the past.
We want them to study it and be
able to now communicate what they learned to
the Western audience.
So, you know, we want them to take
from the modern,
you know, from from their current environment what
knowledge needs to be gained and we want
them to apply that research
capability
to studying the legacy that is,
before them. Are you following me? Exactly. That's
why I said I mean, you need somebody
who was born and raised here. That's the
best case scenario.
So they know about
the issues here. Okay? Yes. And then if
they go The issues, the mode of thought,
the current methods of research because if they
just communicate in a, say, in a level
that is foreign,
in a in a mode of thought and
in a dialectic that is foreign to this
society,
they they will not be able to reach
the the audience that they want to reach.
Are you following me? Yep. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you.
I have to add one thing on there.
Okay?
I I promise I'll make it quick. Alright?
Because,
brother Jeffrey brought it up, and he said,
our boys and girls. Alright?
The brother only said about
educating the men.
The most important thing, subhanallah,
is to educate
the women.
The women are the first teachers of the
children.
If the women do not have the knowledge,
the women do not have the practice, the
children are going to have a very hard
time having it. We concentrate so much on
educating the men. It's time we concentrated on
educating the women.
I think Amina mostly wanted to just make
that clear for the audience. But even if
he did, you have to realize that when
you in Arabic, men is a generic term.
It can include men and women. And I,
you know, so and I understood that to
be the sense of what he said. So
but for the rest of the audience,
just so that nobody gets the wrong idea,