Jeffrey Lang – The Quran An Atheists Perspective Night 02
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Well,
first of all, I'd like to thank the
Muslim discussion group for inviting me.
It was a great
stay here in Lafayette,
or West Lafayette,
these last two days. I'll be leaving tomorrow
morning, hopefully, God willing, unless I die in
the meantime or something.
So,
I'll,
I'd like to thank you all for coming
and
for your questions last night.
Last night, like I said, I spoke about
it was really the central
thing I wanted to speak about, which was
that
I was an atheist from the time I
was 16 to the time I was 28.
I had certain questions that
burned inside me,
certain
issues that I cannot reconcile with belief in
God,
Issues like, why does God allow suffering in
the earth? Why doesn't he just pop us
into heaven from the start?
Why did he make us sinful and rebellious?
Why did he not just make create us
like angels
and put us into heaven so we could
be with him and he could love us,
all of us, instead of a fraction of
us.
You know,
those why would he give us reason if
our reason very often and ultimately
leads us to,
not have faith,
sometimes conflict with faith? Why does he give
us the ability to choose evil
if he doesn't want us to commit evil?
Why would a perfect God create such an
imperfect world and put such an imperfect creature
in it, where it could work out its
most imperfect inclinations?
Now these are some of the issues in
the questions, and I had others as well.
And
and when I read read the Quran from
cover to cover, by the time I was
finished,
I had no questions left.
I got to the point where 1 by
1, all these bricks,
this edifice I had built that separated me
from belief in God,
that entire edifice fell 1 by 1, brick
by brick.
And I saw that
the Quran essentially showed me
that the questions I raised
were,
in a sense, not legitimate.
And that's what I talked about
last night. It showed me that it presented
an entirely different view of the purpose of
life. It eradicated those questions I had. I'm
not gonna say that that proved to me
that there was a God,
but at least it left me with no
argument against the existence of God. It was
quite a jump
from one to the other. It's one thing
not to have an argument anymore against His
existence.
It's another thing to come to faith.
But at least I tried to talk about
that last night, how the Quran argued against
my argument against the belief in God.
I can't repeat that tonight. It will take
2 more hours, so I will not do
that.
But I will talk about other
aspects of the Quran that also caught my
attention.
I mean somewhere along the line, if you're
gonna give up a belief system, and for
me atheism was a belief system, it was
for me a faith.
Because no one, you know, I mean, I
wasn't sure there was not a God, but
I believed that the idea of God was
an impossibility,
led to rational contradictions.
But it was for me a faith. And
if you're going to unseat a person's faith,
you have to get that person to doubt.
Because once that doubt door of doubt is
opened, and slowly but surely, it eats away
at a person's faith like a cancer,
It strips it away
and very often then
that person is open to change.
And oftentimes when we think of doubt, we
think of doubt against belief in God, and
we watch that happen with people. But in
my case, just the reverse happened. The door
of doubt was opened.
And tonight I would like to talk about
other things that caused me aspects of the
Koran that led me to
question
my atheism, that sort of opened that door
of doubt.
These issues are not essential as the ones
I talked about yesterday, so they're not as,
maybe, compelling,
not as, maybe, powerful. But I wanna discuss
them nonetheless because I don't see them very
much discussed by Muslim writers or non Muslim
writers.
Does anyone have a watch I could borrow?
Oh, well, there's this here. I can just
keep turning around and looking at this. Sorry.
Don't need it.
So I'll try to do this in not
too long tonight. Let's see. It's 10 of
8. Promise not to go certainly beyond an
hour. Now I'll answer your questions and let
you leave early so because you looked really
exhausted after last night. You looked like you
could really use some Gatorade.
Okay.
Well, first thing I noticed one of the
first things I noticed when I read the
Quran, when I picked up the Quran, I
was expecting to read
a scripture.
Of course, in my mind, a scripture was
essentially
a history of a people or a biography
of a person.
And that's what I was expecting to,
read when I opened the Quran. And lo
and behold to my amazement, oops, excuse me,
it was it was neither. It was not
a history, and it was not a biography
of a person. And
it was presented as a direct revelation from
God to the reader, and it addresses the
re really reader personally.
And it's clear that the author intends for
you to believe that that's God addressing it.
Whether you accept that or not,
you know, Muslims certainly accept it, others may
not.
But that is definitely the perspective of the
Quran.
And the Quran in its revelation
weaves together different aspects of life.
It presents
the stories of humanity.
It presents
instruction
or or what you would like to say,
law.
It presents,
arguments from natural phenomenon
for the existence of God. It presents
arguments from human nature.
It presents
arguments from reason and from logic, and maybe
those dominate the Quran.
But it weaves together all the various aspects
of life. Weaves them together
to point to a single, what the Koran
considers
supreme fact that your Lord, your God is
1.
It
doesn't separate these things I mentioned into separate
chapters.
Just as these things are interwoven throughout our
lives, they're interwoven throughout the Quran.
So the Quran was definitely not a history,
but it does report
stories.
Stories about humanity, narratives,
parables
about human beings and human nature.
And
you know, I I would like to talk
about that for a little bit because for
me that created something of a curiosity.
Though the Quran contains stories, most of the
stories in it are about prophets of old
or holy per or, you know, pious persons
of old. Or sometimes it even involves people
who
led bad lives and ultimately went to their
self destruction.
Although it contains these stories, an interesting aspect
about it is that it contains no chronology,
no dates, no historical landmarks,
nothing like that. And you have to realize
that when I was reading the Quran I
was keeping my eye open for such types
of things. I was looking for
anachronism.
I was expecting that there would be some
sort of historical
contradiction.
Because ultimately, you know, was mostly interested in
the purpose of life. I
wasn't gonna discard the scripture for that reason.
And plus my
way of thinking about revelation was not really
at that time a sort of Muslim
way of thinking about it, where you Muslims
believe that God is speaking through the Quran
directly
through through Muhammad,
the prophet to humanity,
a direct address.
So that wouldn't have really discouraged me, but
I kept my eye open for nonetheless,
just out of curiosity.
And as I went through the Quran,
I could find first of all nothing that
would contradict
history
or what or a historical
that would be subject, I would say, to
historical criticism.
Because as I said, it has no historical
reference points.
It's not anchored in history.
It has many stories
in the Quran. Sometimes they begin in 1
Surah, picks parts of it will be picked
up in another Surah. Parts is it hot
in here tonight?
It feels hot to me. Part of it
will be picked up later on.
But
still, you know, so it has so a
few continuous narratives, but many of these are
not not. But regardless of that fact, it's
impossible to place these accounts in the Quran
in history
without consulting outside sources.
So it gives the stories sort of a
transcendent feel,
Like it's easy to place yourself in the
position of the characters in the stories because
all the historical reference points, all the superficial
details are stripped away,
and the stories are told in such a
way they just get to the moral or
spiritual point.
The interesting thing about it though
is that if you look at the Quran,
it's very often not clear
if a story that's being told
is being presented as history,
whether it's be being presented as a parable,
a symbolic story,
whether it's being presented as
a very popular legend, which the Koran is
recasting
to teach the Arabs who, for them, these
legends were everything that they used to recite
at their annual trade fairs, whether it's recasting
them, to bring out a moral point,
Because it's certainly referring to stories that they
are well, that they know well.
It's not,
and sometimes it's not clear whether even when
it's telling a story, it's a merger of
these.
The author seems purposely
ambiguous on the point.
And last night I told you we got
into a discussion about the story of Adam.
Is that relating to the historical origins of
homo sapiens?
Or is it an allegory?
And some Koranic scholars thought it was an
allegory.
Others thought it was
ancient scholars, thought it was history.
But the point is, is that there are
internal details that lead you to believe 1
or the other, but for me at least,
it wasn't clear.
And the same could be said for so
many of the accounts in the Quran.
The story of Luqman, for example.
You know, again, you know, it was difficult
not Luqman, Duqarnay,
the prophet conqueror, who conquered from the west
to the far to the very east
of the this planet.
Journeyed west to the farthest point, east to
the farthest point,
the prophet conqueror.
The muslims have never been able to really
identify him with any historical personality.
Some identified him with Alexander the Great, but
we all know Alexander the Great was a
polytheist.
It's a historical fact. And Dhul Qarnayn is
presented as a strict monotheist.
So the point was, was the Quran
recasting
a famous
legend that the people understood
to teach them a moral ethical point
and spiritual point make
spiritual teach them moral spiritual
lessons, or was it history? I don't I'm
not arguing with anybody how you relate to
this. I'm just saying for me,
it was not clear.
And it seemed to me that the author
was being purposely
ambiguous at this at that point.
By not including
explicit temporal references,
it seemed that he was not trying to
seem like he was avoiding,
contradicting
the beliefs,
the assumptions
of his initial audience
for whom history,
legend, poem, etcetera, were interwoven and merged. Etcetera
were interwoven and merged.
And at the same time avoiding
conflicting with the reason and thinking of a
people of a much later
time who were very critical about such distinctions.
Whatever the case may be,
how much as much as I wanted to
find some way to historically criticize the Quran,
from a rational standpoint,
I could find no rational justification.
There just wasn't enough there to criticize it
from a historical standpoint.
And that intrigued me because I thought, why
if pro if this man
was the author, the man whom I assumed
it was, Mohammed,
why would he omit
historical reference
points? Purposely,
because it's done throughout the entire Quran.
Why would he omit them?
Certainly when the Arabs told these stories, and
it was clear in the Quran that they
were familiar with many of them, at least
somewhat,
they told they had such historical reference points.
Certainly they wouldn't have minded if they were
included.
They didn't have it in their mentality at
that point to resort to historical criticism.
Why would he avoid that?
Why would he avoid it throughout the Quran?
It started to open up a question for
me. This author almost seemed to have an
eye to the future
when he wrote the Quran, when he, whom
I assumed was Mohammed and I thought as
he wrote the Quran.
It was just a question.
Also I looked towards the sort of references
to nature, natural phenomenon in the Quran.
Keeping an eye open there for
inconsistencies,
false erroneous notions. Because you know back in
the 7th century,
there were many false erroneous notions about how
nature works.
And, excuse me,
there are many such false erroneous notions. And
I would assume that they would be in
the scripture.
Some of them.
Them. Because if you look at the ancient
scriptures of other peoples, you'll inevitably find some.
I'm not putting them down. I'm not making
any judgment about other scriptures. It was just
something I expected to see.
But when I read the Quran and read
what it had to say about the nature
and its workings
and natural phenomena,
I could find no
erroneous
notions that conflicted
with what we now know, what modern science
has taught us.
And so oftentimes,
as I read through that, I would discover
verses
that referred to natural phenomenon that had a
certain intriguing
style about it.
You know, for example, you there's a verse
that goes, have the unbelievers have not the
unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth
were at one time won,
and we exploded them apart,
and that every living thing is made from
water.
And when I read that verse, I said,
you know, what is the author referring to
here?
And this is a guy in the 7th
century. That is a peculiar statement to make
that long ago.
Have not the unbelievers seen have not the
unbelievers seen How does he say the unbelievers?
When he say the believers,
have not the unbeliever seen that the heavens
and the earth were at one time won,
and we exploded them apart, and that every
living creature is made from water. And that
every living creature is made from water. And
that and that every living creature is made
from water.
I mean, is he referring to the fact
that
most human being every living cell is at
least 70% water?
I mean, I I had no idea what
he was referring to, but it was an
intriguing statement. The heavens and the earth were
at 1 times 1 and it was exploding
apart.
Making an illusion to what? The big bang?
Impossible. Of course I thought, impossible. But still
extremely intriguing reference. You know, he talks in
a Quran, how the earth and the sun
the sun
and the moon
each swim
through their courses in a circle,
in a circular motion.
But who in the 7th century believed the
sun traveled in a circle or the earth
traveled in a circle?
It
was
a strange statement to make, I thought, way
back then.
And there are many such statements. Have it
says in the Quran, in the heavens and
the earth no. It says, in the heavens
we are expanding it.
In the heavens we are expanding it?
What do you mean you're stretching the heavens?
You're expanding the heavens. Of course, today we
know about the expansion of the universe. And
I wasn't assuming
that that's what it was saying.
But there were just statements in the Quran
that had a sort of uncanny resemblance
to things that we've come to know or
believe in.
I wasn't insisting to myself. I wasn't a
Muslim at the time.
Not insisting to myself that that was it
what it was referring to.
But it definitely peaked my curiosity.
But more importantly as I read through the
Quran, I couldn't find any such historic any
such reference to natural phenomena
that conflicted
with what we now believe, historically.
Once again though, I mean the statements,
they're not explicit enough
to fully elaborate a scientific theory.
So even though it's the initial audience of
the Quran may have turned their head at
it and thought what does this verse mean,
still it wasn't something that conflicted with what
they believed.
But at the same time,
for a person living in the 20th century,
he reads that. It doesn't conflict with what
he believes either, and it piques his
interest. It seemed that the
so called signs from nature in the Quran
kind of fulfilled a role similar to what
the stories did for the ancient audience.
It drew their attention,
captured their imagination,
piqued their interest
without violating anything they held sacred, that they
were firmly convinced of.
In the same way these,
these references to nature, did the same for
us, or did the same for me, I
should say,
without conflicting what I firmly believe.
So I thought, I mean this author
is something of a genius.
Because I tried to imagine how he did
this. I mean, how did he go about
doing this? I mean, he was so clever,
I thought, that when he related historical references,
he must have thought that there could be
potential conflicts when he related them with what
people would later find out. So therefore, he
removed all historical reference points. But on the
other hand, when he does relate these historical
references,
reference points, he does provide certain kinds of
details
that
are
that that he uses them in such a
way that he's making very profound and powerful
moral and
spiritual points.
Now how did he do do with the
science things? I don't know. He started making
these certain scientific statements
that would definitely peak people's notions. But somehow
he was able to do it in such
a delicate and intricate
and ambiguous way,
so that he was able to do it
in such a way that it would pique
people's interest
without conflicting with anybody's scientific knowledge.
I thought this
author
is a genius
beyond any I could ever possibly imagine.
Because not only that, I mean he wrote
a scripture that is so powerful that it
forces you almost, or it forced me to
engage in conversation with it.
Its literary power was tremendous.
I mean when I read the the stories
in the Quran, I mean they're they're powerful.
They're beautiful. They move with rapid pace.
It's like watching one of those ex an
exciting
an exciting because I often don't find these
exciting.
Television soap operas, except in verbal form.
Because you know when you watch these television
soap operas at night, suddenly you see a
scene, a conversation begins here, and then they
shift immediately to another scene that sort of
relates this team to that scene with a
con with no break
and continuity of thought.
When I read through the Quran, you know,
the stories were just so powerful. The literate
the economy of expression was so great. I'll
just give you a quick example. When I
read the story of Youssef, for example,
you read that story,
you shift from one scene to the other
without breaking the continuity of thought. And verse
by verse by verse, you're going from one
scene to another. So here you have Yusuf
talking to his cellmates. The next verse, one
of the cellmates is carrying the conversation
to the ruler. The next verse, the ruler
tells the cellmate tells this guy to go
find this man who gave you this information.
Then the very next scene you're in prison,
and he's talking to him. And all along,
each verse by verse is carrying on a
conversation that's perfectly continuous
even though the sheen scene is shifting from
one place to the next to the next
to the next. So verbally, you have this
transition of place going on in your mind.
And just like in modern television, it captures
your imagination.
It's if the scene shifts. You notice nowadays
they in television they talk about 4 seconds
about this scene and then 4 seconds about
this scene. They don't let any scene last
too long because they know people's minds wander.
They look too long at the same scene.
Brilliant literary style.
And I thought this author was extremely
brilliant in his style, in the way he
used the natural signs, in the way he
told these stories, and the way he was
able to present all this without conflicting,
without opening himself up to historical or scientific
criticism. I thought it was amazing.
I thought he was brilliant.
I thought he must have known human psychology
very well and human nature. The way he
was able to lure you into conversation with
the Quran.
Many of those signs in the Quran mystified
Muslim commentators in the 1st few centuries.
You know, those signs from nature.
When they wrote about them, they would come
up with the most
crazy
theories about what the verse was referring to.
Because their knowledge was limited that time, and
they had no idea what it was referring
to.
There's a verse in the Quran that talks
about how God has planted mountains on the
earth so it doesn't shake with you too
much.
1 Muslim scholar wrote, famous Muslim scholar, wrote
that that's because the
earth
sits on top of a huge body of
water and there's a gigantic
whale underneath
that is supporting the earth. And when the
whale shifts,
the earth shakes,
so the mountains sort of prevent the whale
from shaking. I mean, this was to him
science.
I mean, this was,
to him,
science. That shows you how far
people back then were from even getting a
grasp
on some of these signs.
How how
erroneous were some of their notions back in
those days.
So you would suspect when you read the
scripture, you would see some of that filtering
into the scripture, but it did not.
I thought that was amazing. I thought the
man definitely transcended,
because I thought the author was a man,
definitely transcended his time and place.
I mentioned yesterday that the Quran states explicitly
many times that it uses
symbolism to make its point, that there are
verses that are plain and that there are
verses that are symbolic.
Especially when you come upon references
I mean, this happened to me a few
times. I'd come upon a reference referring to
the day of judgment
or the hereafter, or heaven and * that
seemed too
concrete,
too suited to the mentality of the people
at that time.
And I gave some examples of it yesterday.
And right after I came upon the first
such reference, the Quran would say, and God
does not
is not shy of using any parable, even
that of a gnat.
He's not he's not shy from using symbolism.
Just when I found a reference that sort
of conflicted with my reason,
when I talked about the hereafter, in the
very next verse before I dismiss this Quran,
the next verse says, but God does not
shy away from using symbolism.
And that type of thing would happen several
times as I read through the Quran.
Essentially, I could not really find anything in
a Quran that could definitely,
definitively
conflict
with the way I thought.
And then I would come upon a verse
in a Quran that would say something like
this.
Have they not reflected on this Quran?
Surely if it is from other than God,
they would find in many a contradiction.
They're not reflected on this Quran. Surely if
it was other from other than God, they
would find it many a contradiction.
Here I am reading through the Koran, keeping
my eye open for such contradictions, and I
come across something like that.
What seemed time and time again like the
author was reading my mind,
understanding what I was going through, and just
sort of pointing me, and responding to my
thinking.
Well I can't review for you my entire
experience of reading the Quran,
but I'll just very quickly try to summarize
my reactions to some of these things.
I mean, when I first started reading the
Koran, I very early got intrigued with who
the author was. And I thought I better
study about this man,
Mohammed, who the western
translator said was the author of Quran. The
translator was a non Muslim.
And from what I read, from western
orientalists,
western writers of the Quran, and they noted
a curious thing, that the Arabian pen peninsula
during the time of the prophet
was no cradle of learning or philosophy.
It was one of the most backward
areas of the world. It was a Bedouin
tribal society. And if you read the Quran,
it's very clear that it was very much
a primitive tribal society.
Just read the way the Quran talks to
the Bedouin,
its audience.
The type of issues it responds to.
The mentality that it deals with. It's very
clear that the initial audience is quite primitive.
Women used to walk around with their chest
exposed.
They killed their children.
They committed female infanticide.
Sexual promiscuity,
licentiousness
was
everywhere.
Marriage
meant practically nothing.
Husbands would leave their premises, their wives would
bring in other men,
because they were afraid that in those dangerous
times that their husbands
could be dead, would never come back alive.
And so they sought protection in the arms
of another man.
The tribes,
Arabia knew no government.
They were torn
to ribbons by internal tribal strife.
They were just a very primitive backward society.
They had no
they had no,
great works of literature.
No works of literature. They left no litter
literary,
nothing from they left no literature
behind. The ancient Arabs did before Islam. No
great works of literature. No great works of
literature period.
No great architecture.
No great art.
No music,
nothing.
They left no trace of what we call
civilization.
They knew
no Greek mathematics,
no science,
To this day, nothing before that era
has survived. It was a barren, as far
culturally,
it was a barren
wasteland.
Like a lot of primitive tribal
peoples,
like a lot of primitive
tribal peoples that even have existed up and
almost up until recent times.
You know, they just had no
great
history,
no great
historical, cultural
refinement or development.
They're an extremely primitive people.
All the scholars would agree upon, everybody who
has studied that civilization
agrees on least that much. And it's easy
because they left nothing behind.
It's impossible to cover up completely
historical and cultural development
if it did take place. But they left
no signs of that behind them, and it's
not recorded. Their only art form
was poetry handed down orally.
From 1, you know, hand handed down and
spoken orally. They didn't even record it in
writing. But that was their favorite art form
and their major entertainment.
Well the reason why I mention all that
is because when you look at the Quran,
it is
no matter how what you think no matter
how you read it. It's a very sophisticated
work. It's a very sophisticated
scripture.
In a lot of ways I just mentioned,
and I tried to convey at least the
things about it that impressed me. But if
you look at all the great scriptures of
the world that have come to us, you
notice that they've all come to us through
highly developed cultures.
They emerge from highly developed cultures.
The Hellenistic culture in the case of the
New Testament.
The Hindu scriptures
came out of the great Hindu civilization,
which was highly refined and highly developed in
its time.
The Chinese scriptures came out of the great
Chinese civilizations.
Civilizations that showed strong and powerful,
cultural
development and refinement that took place over many,
many years.
But when you look at this scripture, this
emerged
from the one of the most primitive
tribal
peoples
in the history of mankind.
It came out of a cultural
civilizational
desert.
And that to me just seemed
extremely strange.
How could something so beautiful, so powerful in
its logic,
so powerful in its it's having such literary
power, being so profound in its philosophy and
its thinking,
so advanced
in its thinking. How could such something so
powerful, so advanced, so ingenious
come out
of these primitive confines of the Arabian Peninsula?
To me, that such a work should emerge
from such an environment, to me, was like
finding a rose bush in the most desolate
area of the empty quarter of the Arabian
Peninsula, just suddenly blooming out of nowhere.
It caused me to wonder,
how can
what kind of author was this that wrote
the Quran?
I found the Quran's stress on reason
radical.
To this day, I don't know of any
other religion that put so much stress on
reason. I don't know of any religious scholars
in in any other religion that insist that
reason and faith
work hand in hand and that reason is
essential to faith. To me, that seemed like
a radical notion. The author of the Quran
was way ahead of his time.
It was clear that the author, if it
was Mohammed,
he had no,
at least according to the western scholars of
it, he had no formal education.
No formal education.
Then how could this man transcend his time
and place
so greatly?
I mean if you look at other great
geniuses like Einstein
and his development of theory of relativity,
His development of theory of relativity was preceded
by centuries and centuries of scientific advancement.
The whole science of physics was moving in
that direction. If Einstein hadn't found that theory,
somebody else would have soon after.
You have Andre Wiles, great proof of from
Matt's last theorem,
another genius effort, but it was preceded by
centuries and centuries of development in mathematics and
work on that specific problem.
You really can't say that his effort was
a singular effort.
And Shakespeare, and Van Gogh, and Mozart,
they were truly great, but they did not
transcend their time so phenomenally, their environment so
phenomenal.
Now, there were other great musicians, other great
writers,
other great painters
that
that helped to develop an atmosphere
where that where you could expect
such a production.
But you have to remember that, you know,
the Quran, it was like it came out
of the Amazon, one of the most primitive
tribes in the Amazon.
Arabs are not a sophisticated people.
On the other hand, not only did I
think that if Mohammed were the author of
the Quran,
it would have to have been one of
the greatest geniuses, maybe the greatest genius in
the history of humanity.
But I realized also that if Mohammed were
the author of the Quran, then he was
an extremely devout and altruistic
person.
Because the Quran does nothing else but invite
people to the worship of 1 God, and
to live a good life, a just life,
a caring life, a merciful life.
It instructs the readers of the Quran to
be devout to God
and to be and to work incessantly for
the betterment of their fellow man.
So the message that he preached
was was purely monophistic
and purely humanitarian.
And it showed a deep caring for this
fellow for fellow man, and it showed a
deep devotion to God.
Also, I thought if Mohammed were the author
of the Quran, then he was extremely extremely
humble. Because
when you read the Quran,
he
he completely,
almost effaces himself from the script.
He says the Quran calls says about the
prophet that he is only a man,
that he has no supernatural
powers,
that his only task
is to deliver the script, to deliver the
message, to only be a warner.
Not only that, the Quran even criticizes him,
Sometimes severely in place in places.
Points out errors he's making. Errors in judgment.
Points
out, criticizes him in very severe terms.
Like, let me just give you a quick
example here.
One of my favorites,
if I could find it.
Okay.
Yes,
here it goes. It said this is a
surah that was revealed, just to set it
up for you. The prophet,
peace be upon him, apparently was talking to
2
Meccan chiefs,
powerful men in the Meccan society at that
time.
And a blind man approached him
and wanted to ask him about
the revelation
or a piece of a scripture that he
had revealed, a part of the scripture he
had revealed. But he was so intent on
talking to these 2 individuals
that he frowned and tried to ignore the
blind man that approached.
And this verse in the Quran respond this
passage in the Quran responds to that. It
says he frowned
and turned away
because the blind man approached it.
And what would inform you that that the
blind that he, the blind man, might grow
in faith,
or take heed and so we might excuse
me, take heed of the reminder, and it
might help him.
As for him who thinks himself independent,
unto him you give your full attention.
It is not a concern of you if
that person grows.
But as for him who comes unto you
with an earnest heart and has
God consciousness,
from him you are distracted.
But no. This is surely an admonishment for
all mankind.
So let so whosoever will pay heed to
it
criticizes him very severely.
And there are several such instances in the
Quran.
He must have been totally
humble and self effacing.
Not only that,
as I read through the Quran I find
verses that in the early stages, where the
Quran is coming to support a man who's
apparently wondering
about
this revelational
experience he's having and wondering if he's losing
his mind.
Because several times the Quran says to him
things like, you're not by the grace of
your lord mad or possessed.
You are clearly on a straight path.
In another verse, it tells him that you
are not
losing your mind.
In another verse, it says, by the glorious
morning night
light and the night by when it is
still in dark, your guardian lord has not
forsaken you, nor is he displeased. And soon,
lord has not forsaken you, nor is he
displeased.
And soon,
he will grant you, and you will be
well pleased,
And so forth and so on. It was
recited when
the, when the gentleman
began the Quran today.
I mean here we see the Quran
telling him in places, encouraging him in its
very early stages when it's first being revealed
to him, telling him, no, you're not mad.
You're not going crazy
here. This is no less than a revelation
from on high.
And then you were on a straight way.
Mean,
what
I mean, what kind of personality would do
this? You know, suddenly include verses where the
Quran
is coming to him and assuring him that
he is not losing his mind.
I mean, if I was gonna forge a
scripture, I would make it seem like I'm
perfectly confident
about this message that I'm receiving.
But this would be but if I was
sincere,
this is what I would expect. If I
was having this powerful revelational experience, something like
I never had ever known before in my
life, I'd probably think I was losing my
mind
when I first had it. In any case,
it did seem to show a tremendous sincerity,
a love of God,
and a tremendous compassion for humanity.
And like I said, on the other hand
he says he's only a man. He's here
to deliver the message. He has no supernatural
powers, the Quran says. He, like everyone else,
must pray for guidance and forgiveness,
criticizes it, it
corrects him.
On the one hand, he seemed like an
other a man who must be utterly sincere
and extremely devoted to get to God.
But on the other hand, I could not
ignore the fact that if he were the
author to of the Quran, at the same
time he had to be the greatest liar
in history.
Because he concocted
the most audacious hoax ever,
because he claimed
that he was receiving direct
revelation
from God.
And so
the two pictures just didn't match. And on
one hand, we have this man who is
seems utterly sincere, inviting people to nothing else
but goodness,
inviting people to nothing else but the worship
of 1 God. And I'm and he's doing
it in an ingenious way with a powerful
scripture that certainly transcends his environment.
He's doing all this and on the other
hand, the whole thing is a lie.
This is why Thomas Carlyle, the famous orientalist
in the beginning of the century,
said that gave that revolutionary speech where he
said, if you read the Quran you're left
to cut he was an orientalist. He said,
if you read the Quran, one thing you
have to conclude is that Mohammed was utterly
sincere
in believing
that these revelations
were from none other than God.
And that was just something I had a
difficult time dealing with.
I thought maybe
that the author had multiple personalities.
You know, maybe on the one hand, he
thought God was speaking to him, but on
the other hand, you know,
he he wasn't. So at one time, he
he assumed the God personality, and it was
criticizing him or assuring him. And at other
times, he would assume.
But clearly, the Quran is not the work
of a fragmented personality.
It was too ingenious, too profound, too coherent,
too rational.
No, couldn't have been that.
In the same way, I thought it couldn't
be the work of several individuals, and I
toyed with that concept for a while. Because
if the Quran was a work of several
individuals, you would see several different viewpoints in
the text.
It's not hard to do.
And you could see that in most scriptures
you look at. But the personality behind the
Quran was definitely one.
Towards the end of my reading of the
Quran, I fell on the subject of not
the subject of, but a book of hadith,
sayings of the prophet
outside
of what is revealed in the Quran. The
personal recollections of his followers of sayings and
teachings he made.
And when I read the hadith, his reported
sayings,
apart from the Quran,
when I read them, the 2 personalities
you see in the hadith literature and the
personality behind the Quran
are clearly and indisputably
distinct.
I defy any of you
to get out the deep literature
and go through it, and read the thousands
of sayings that have been attributed to the
prophet,
and compare it to the personality in the
Quran,
and there's just no comparison.
There are definitely 2 distinct personalities.
Or at least they seem that way to
me.
So if the prophet were the author of
the Quran, I assumed that he was the
greatest human anomaly,
or
the true author somehow entirely escaped
the view of history.
So in any case, so I had gotten
through the Koran.
I had gotten to the stage where I
had all these rational objections to belief in
God, and I spoke about these last night.
And by the time I was done reading
it, I no longer had them.
I had this dilemma of trying to
figure out how this author of the Quran
faced this picture,
fit this picture. And I had a hard
time doing that.
And I was all done
reading the Quran, had these questions about authorship,
and I went over to my friend Mahmoud
Kandil's house one night, and I had, he
invited me over for dinner.
And his sister let me in, and she
told me to sit on the couch
while Mahmoud came out because he was in
the shower.
While I was sitting there, I was listening
to a tape. And Mahmoud had a tape
on the stereo. And Mahmoud,
he used to love music. Rock and roll,
jazz,
rhythm and blues, classical. He was a great
music lover.
But tonight on the tape,
he had a tape of this music that
was coming out of Quran that had no
musical accompaniment, no instrumental accompaniment.
It was just a single voice.
And it was to me, it sounded like
it was singing.
And it was singing in the most strangest
and most in a in a very strange
and haunting
way.
And it had a very strong
and powerful
cadence and rhyme.
And I was listening to it again and
again and again, and I noticed that it
would suddenly shift from one very strong powerful
rhythm and rhyme to a completely another one
for a long while. And then it would
shift again to another and another.
It had a very haunting,
powerful,
strained,
intricate cadence,
and a and a struct and no musical
accompaniment, and this just this powerful intonation
with this powerful rhyme and this powerful
inborn rhythm.
And when Mahmoud came out, I asked him,
Mahmoud, what is that music you're listening to?
And he quickly flicked off the tape.
And he told me, it's not music.
And I said, well then what is it?
And he says, it's the Quran.
Up until that point in my life, I
had never heard the Quran.
I had read in a translation,
and I thought it was powerful and compelling
and beautiful.
I thought it was philosophically great,
tremendously rational, coherent,
deep and profound,
but I never heard it recited.
When I heard it recited for the first
time, I thought I said to Mahmoud,
is it all like that? That it's all
have such a powerful innate
rhythm
and this very intricate and powerful
rhyme?
And Mahmoud said, yes. And I said, is
it poetry?
And he said, no.
I said, then what is it? He said,
Arabic po Arabic poetry has a very definitive
style. This is not anything like Arabic poetry.
Normally, when I used to have conversations with
Mahmood about his faith, I used to I
would usually file, you know, keep on going
and asking him more questions. But at that
point I asked him nothing else.
Because I just needed to sit there and
try to piece all the pieces together.
Because when you study literary works, poetry for
example, that has tremendous rhythm and tremendous rhyme
and very,
strict structure,
usually when you translate that into another language,
it loses much of its power. The meaning
becomes almost trite.
But here we have something that has the
most powerful,
intricate,
disciplined,
rhythm, and rhyme throughout the entire Quran.
And when you translate it into my
language, it's still beautiful, powerful, compelling,
rational, deep.
I couldn't believe that the same thing I
was reading
could possibly be the same thing I heard
in Arabic.
Whose woods these are, I think I know.
His house is in the village though. You
will not see me stopping here to watch
his woods fill up with snow.
Arabs in the audience are not gonna think
that's really great or profound.
But it's a beautiful poem in English.
It was in just sunny climb where I
used to spend my time, a servant of
his majesty the of her majesty the queen.
And of all that blackface crew, the finest
man I knew was our regimental Disdi Gungadeen.
Right? Famous poem. Right?
But if you translate that into to another
language,
it'll lose much of its compelling beauty, you
know, much of its power.
But
this,
the Quran,
which had this powerful
rhythm, systematic
rhythm, this innate rhythm that makes it so
easy to memorize even,
that that has this beautiful and powerful and
compelling music and rhythm throughout it and rhyme
that shifts and changes. It's not even consistent.
One surah, it'll be this way. Another surah,
maybe the long one, will start this way
and then slowly glide into another, and then
slowly glide into another, and slowly glide to
another. You know, most great poets when they
write, they write in 2 or 3 meters
in rhythms, and that's it. And all their
poems are in 1 or the other. This
one is shifting dramatically and intricately throughout the
entire
Quran. There might be a 150,
maybe 200 difference
meters and styles and rhythms and rhymes throughout
the Quran.
I thought how can
this author do this coming from the environment
that he did? How could he produce something
this
this magnificent?
Especially it's coming from a very primitive,
simple mind simple,
unrefined,
backward,
primitive
society. I thought he either must have transcended
his time and space like no person in
the history of the world,
or
I don't know. I didn't know. Maybe there
was a God. I wasn't really sure.
I
was a God.
I wasn't really sure.
Maybe I was wrong. Maybe my mom was
right. Maybe there was a God.
And
that, through reading the entire Koran,
and through these considerations, especially the ones I
mentioned
yesterday, but also just thinking about these issues
as well,
the doubt began to creep in.
The more I thought about these things, the
harder time I had reconciling
my encounter with the Koran
with my
commitment to atheism.
And I think I'll stop there because
you guys must be tired. How did I
do tonight? Did I take very long? Let's
see. We started about here. Oh, 50 minutes.
I'll stop there. And, if you have any
questions, I'll be happy to answer them.
Like I said, this is just, I was
just filling in some holes from, yesterday. So
thank you so much for your time.
Thank you, professor Lang.
What we're gonna do is we have a
couple people who are going to kinda walk
up and down the aisles. You're allowed to,
write a question if you don't want to,
come and stand in line over here. But
if you don't mind,
asking a question,
we would like people to come and line
up over here for for questions.
Thank you very much.
Mainly because of the videotape.
This is going to the video feed. So
You do not have to ask any questions,
by the way. Yeah. You don't have to
ask.
No questions. It's fine. We could just go
home.
Yes, sir.
Just line up right here.
Do you play football?
No.
Basically, according to the
I'm not a Christian. I'm an agnostic. But
according to the Christian faith, demons are smart.
The The devil's very intelligent. All the things
that you say he could've done, therefore, what
you believe now could've been a con
he basically could've made. And therefore, he's now
leading many people to *.
Pardon? Say that again. I didn't quite catch
it. According to the Christian faith The devil
is very smart. He's smart. Demons are the
devil is just incredibly smart and could do
everything of what you said.
Therefore,
possibly, this could be his greatest work, and
therefore, many people are being led to *.
Oh, but you're not a Christian, though, but
I'm an agnostic. But yes. Can I just
ask then what what what's the motivation behind
the question? I'm just curious. You're fascinated me.
I'm I'm just curious. I mean, how would
you ask that? What? I mean, how do
you answer that? Because you're obviously putting a
supernatural element into it. And therefore, if that's
how do you know if that supernatural isn't
coming from the divine? No. I'm curious why
you would ask that, from an atheist agnostic
perspective. It's okay. No. I
don't mind. Yeah. The question is, just in
case you haven't heard it, and I hope
I've phrased it correctly.
According to the Christian faith, and this man
is an agnostic,
he's unsure of the existence of God. But
he said according to Christian faith, Satan is
very
smart. Yes.
And he could do tremendous things. Yes. And
he could produce great works.
And so how do you know that Satan
didn't produce this to
Deceive.
To what? To deceive and basically To deceive
people
and and lead them away from God. Yes.
Well,
work of Satan although, you know, in the
Quran, Satan stripped much of his power.
Now it says the guile of Satan is
weak.
You know, so there's a different religious perspective
here. Satan but whispers
and certain people follow them. He whispers into
their heart.
He's that source of temptation that they're exposed
to, and he follows them. But he says
in many places in the Quran, I had
no power over you. You know, he's really
sort of stripped of the power. So he
doesn't have the same
tremendous power that he has in Christianity, for
example.
But nonetheless,
how do I know that this couldn't be
the work of some great evil force
that was trying
to,
fool, deceive people and to lead them away
from the belief in God.
Well, if Satan were so clever and it
was his design to produce this so it
would lead them away from the belief of
God and righteous living,
then he failed miserably.
You know, because there's a 1000000000 people down
around the world even to this day that
through the Quran are devout believers in 1
God. But therefore, they don't believe in Jesus.
Therefore, his master scheme would work because now
people are going to *, which therefore, Satan
likes. Well, maybe from the Christian perspective, but
I'm just saying from an outside perspective. You
know, from an outside perspective,
if Satan wanted to create something that would
that would get people to do evil, then
he failed miserably.
Because this this same scripture has gotten people
to live righteous lives,
to dedicate themselves to doing goodness,
to give up drinking, to give up sexual
liscentiousness,
to give up all the things he supposedly
wants us to do.
You know, he's got he's gotten people to
give up murder,
to give up killing, to give up violence,
to give up
to give up, steal, to give up, lie,
to give up, lie,
to give up,
to love Jesus,
you know, to and on and on and
on. If this was the work of a
demon, then, I would say that Satan was
a very good guy.
Well
I'm talking from just I'm talking from an
outside perspective, not from any religious point of
view. Are you following me? As an atheist,
when I first read the Quran you're asking
me from the atheist perspective because I read
it as an atheist. If this is the
type of things that Satan is advocating, then
he's a good person. You know, that would
have been my reaction. Christian morality is similar
to What? Christian morality is very similar to
To well, fine. So the Muslims do not
discount
that there's a lot of truth in Christianity,
for example. You know, unlike other religions,
the Quran
I mean, other not other
other people, let me say.
Unlike certain people, the Quran
does not it does not say that
only Muslims
will enter
paradise
someday. It says that people of other scriptures
will
too.
People of other religions can too, provided,
you know, that they're being sincere
and that they are living according to what
they truly know.
Are you following me?
What could be correct? That obviously that could
be described by others who cannot say that
if you're going to suppress all of that,
it's possible. Well, no. I mean, unless I
feel I mean for me, I mean you
remember you're talking to me as
a per as an we're talking from I
hope we're talking. I mean because I hope
you're not saying Jeff put on the hat
of a Christian and then approach this. You
know, but I hope you're just saying that
from a, say objective level. You know, from
an objective level,
you know,
couldn't this possibly be the work of Satan?
And like I said, my response would be
that he is a very good being, you
know, because he wants us to do all
these good things.
The other thing I was gonna say that
if it
no I guess I'll leave it at that.
I ran out of gas.
But, what was the other thing? Oh yeah,
but if, you know, Satan's
only real concern
is to get people
to either acknowledge to accept
or not accept
the belief in the divinity of Jesus,
so
it's
really not so bad if that's his only
real concern. Because, you know, if all my
if I'm just down here on earth
for no other purpose
than to acknowledge
the sonship of Jesus,
and that's what all this strife and struggle
and everything on this earth is about. That's
the only reason I'm here. Is about. That's
the only reason I'm
here. God put me here for no other
purpose than to acknowledge that. Necessity of all
of this. No. I mean, you're wrong. No.
That's coming from the atheist perspective. Yeah.
Well, that's what
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's incompatible
with
it would be incompatible with how I would
reason.
Yeah. Because, you know, because then I would
have to start asking that person questions. And
I've been in these conversations many times. And
as I start asking them questions,
their their reasoning
for for that position starts to fall apart.
And the only thing they could tell me
finally is that, well, I mean, it's a
matter of faith. You know? And that's what
inevitably comes. But I don't wanna stand here
and attack the Christian perspective tonight. Not at
the center, but I've also known people,
for example,
No. That's fine. I was just presenting, you
know,
I was just presenting a rational perspective. That's
all. Alright. We're gonna go with the next
question. Yes. Hi.
I'm also agnostic,
and
after this whole Matt thing
Matt?
I agree with Matt. Oh, Matt. Who's
Matt?
It's kinda hard to explain, but, well Who's
Matt? Yeah. Go for it.
There was a,
a valley, I guess, about a week or
week or 2 ago,
that, a guy who had a guy who
had found Christianity.
A guy who founded?
Who found Christianity
as his belief. His name was Matt, and
there was a big rally where they were
putting signs, I agree with Matt everywhere because
they they wanted to, get people to come
and listen to him speak about his his,
conversion. Oh, okay. I don't know about it,
but go ahead. My point is,
one of the things I talked to them
about,
was that
the whole point and I'm not, in any
way an expert about Christianity or whatever, so,
probably a lot of people are gonna contradict
me. But they were saying that,
even though I might be a really good
person and that I spend my life doing
good things and I'm moral, etcetera, etcetera,
The fact that I don't believe in Jesus
means I'm going to * regardless
of whatever I do. How do you feel
about that? Not very good. Oh, okay.
And one of the things I was wondering
if you could speak to,
in comparison to Christianity
is that Christianity is very exclusionary
towards other religions. Well At least that's my
impression. Okay.
And I was wondering if you could speak
to that for more,
of the perspective
of Islam. Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I'm not gonna characterize Christianity as exclusionary
or not. That's not my role here today.
I'm not a Christian.
I don't wanna offend people, and it's not
necessary.
One of the things that first appear appear
one of the things that appealed to me
about
Quran was that it was not so
exclusionary as you say. Now in one verse
it says, those people who follow this Quran
and the Jews and the Christians and the
Sabeins, they were another monotheistic
religion that existed at that time in the
Arabian Peninsula.
It says those people who follow this Quran
and the Jews and the Christians and the
Sabeins,
If they believe in God and do what
is right, they'll have nothing to fear nor
shall they grieve.
You know, and I found that to be
a very compelling
statement.
It said that it's not so much
the religious label you have attached to us,
but it's a question of sincerity
and living a right
living a good and righteous life.
The Quran on the other hand says that
when people are confronted with the truth,
and if they stubbornly
reject it
and turn their back on it,
it, they will be responsible for that. That
will affect who they are.
It will affect
their spirituality.
It will affect them as a person.
So the stubborn
and contumacious
rejection
of the truth. Are you following me? Not
just not knowing, not just
being unexposed to it, or not just having
somebody say to you, Oh, well, you know,
I'm a Muslim, I believe this,
there was a prophet, etcetera, and he explains
it, he or she explains it in a
way that you cannot relate to at all,
or does a bad job of relating it.
You know, if that's your case and you
still remain ignorant of the truth from the
standpoint of the Quran,
you know, then God only knows, you know,
you may be fine.
You know, I really don't know. But the
only sin that this Quran says will utterly
destroy a person for sure is the stubborn
and contemptuous
rejection
of God
and truth
when they sense
it. Are you following me?
Yeah. Oh, I don't mean to yell at
you. I want them to hear me back
there. You know? So that will do it.
When people put, it says in a Quran,
other things before truth and before
a genuine,
sincere,
open minded search for God.
When they put other things
before that, make it raise that to a
higher level and make it more important.
Then Negron refers to that as in Arabic,
associating with God, making other gods before God,
inventing your own gods before God, right, or
putting your own
lust or desires. And it gives these examples.
Lust, desires, wealth, power, etcetera. When you make
that your god
and you've and in your stubborn resistance of
the truth to hang on to that, that
becomes the center of your life. You're destroying
yourself, the
says. But you know,
as that verse says, if there is a
Jew Jewish person or as the example shows,
if there's a Jewish person or a Christian
person or a Sabine
who is sincere
and is,
doing good deeds, righteous living righteously,
and that to the best of their ability,
they are trying to pursue truth and live
a good life.
And as long as they
believe in God
and they have,
lived righteous lives, they have nothing to fear
nor shall they agree.
So it has a certain
you know,
and other verses say a person is not
responsible for for will not be,
will not suffer for what they do in
ignorance.
In true ignorance.
But like I said, you know, and I
don't wanna downplay the point that the Quran
also says
that when people are confronted with the truth,
they're responsible
to to they should not just turn their
back on
it, you know. And no uncertain terms, it
says that. Okay. So I hope that's okay.
Nice question. I I didn't mean to raise
my voice. Thank you.
There's just been a request, from some of
the picker uppers to pass the questions down
to the front if you if you have
that ability, if you happen to be in
a line where you can reach people.
Gonna go through Who is Matt?
Matt?
Matt. Matt. You're gonna go through 2 or
3 quick,
written ones. Sure.
But I'll have to be quick about those.
Right? First thing is, thank you for your
exposition. As a professor of mathematics, how would
you further expand the Koranic theory of creation,
yakun, with the big bang theory of creation
including includes expanding universe and ultimate big crunch?
Oh,
I'm a mathematician. I'm not a physicist.
But,
also, I I never thought about that question
from that angle. And, you know, it would
require some thought. You know, I've never really
thought about that. Sorry.
It's Not trying to belittle the question. I've
just never given any thought.
Number 1. Other religions also preach goodness and
good things. For a purse for the person
who is not looking at specifics and rational
approach of the Quran, why do you think
or do or do you think people need
the guidance that the Quran provides?
I think there's a lot of people
who have lived lives similar to mine, who
have questions like I have,
existence of God,
existence of
God primarily for rational reasons.
And
from my experience of the Quran,
I believe that that many of those people,
if they read it with an open mind
and open heart,
that it may help them in their search.
I sincerely feel that. I wouldn't be standing
here today if I didn't.
So what was the question again?
Essentially,
why do you think people need the guidance
the Quran provides? Yes. And, you know, so
I think it could be of a benefit
for many, many people, hopefully. And I think
they would find great peace, and I think
they would find much more than that, you
know, through reading the Quran.
You know? Especially yeah. This person,
seems to have had encounters with Christians
who have said that their belief in in
the trinity and their belief in Jesus as
god
is one of faith
and
and that they just take it on faith,
that that that is true.
Is there a way to present the Quran
or its teaching to them considering you're coming
from that faith should make sense?
Coming from what? The faith? The the idea
that faith should make sense.
Oh,
well, if a person is
I don't know what
I can't see, I can't I wasn't there
when you had this conversation, whoever asked that
question.
From your point of view, you understood that
when you tried to reason with them
and tried to apparently argue with them and
point out certain what you felt were rational
problems with their position,
when you tried to do that, they finally
said to
you, it's a matter of faith. It's just
a matter of faith.
And you know, in other words that
in some sense, you know, reason has
not much to do with it.
And that reason could lead you astray or
whatever. If that's a person's
position, that's their position.
You know, I mean,
I've gotten into such discussions with people before,
friends of mine, and they said, well, it's
just a matter of faith. That's a premise.
I mean, it may or may not be
true. You know, the Quran says that faith
is intricately related to reason.
Reason is indispensable.
If somebody says to me that reason has
nothing to do with faith, I have no
argument against. The argument must stop there.
The minute you throw reason out,
then you have there's no point in arguing.
There's no point in even discussing.
There's no point in debating the issue. You
throw out reason, then what's the point of
arguing? Arguing is an exercise in reason. Reason.
Are you following me? So you really have
nothing to say. You could just say, well,
then, you know, then God gave you reason
for no real purpose.
Your reason doesn't have any real function
in terms of it was he gave it
to you for no real purpose. What can
I say? You know? And and if they
admit that, then then they are stuck. You
know?
We're gonna go 2 quick ones because you
won't have to say much for these, and
then we'll go to back to Yes. The
line. How long did it take you for
the first from first reading the Quran to
when you became a Muslim?
It took me a
while. Not really all that long. It took
me from the time I got done reading
the Quran
to the time I became a Muslim.
Boy, so long ago, 19 years.
From the time I got done,
maybe 3 weeks, 4 weeks.
Yeah. About 3 or 4 weeks. Alright. And
what was the last thing you thought about
before deciding to convert?
Really? Accept Islam. Oh, wow. What was the
last thing I thought about before con I
don't know. Well, I know.
Let me just say
just
let me just say that this. What essentially
happened was I was done with a Quran.
What essentially happened was I was done with
the Quran.
I was not
my study of the Quran really just sort
of began as an intellectual curiosity,
you know, a rational endeavor.
As I read through the Koran, I didn't
tell anybody this last night because these are
not the type of things that are gonna
help anybody.
And I don't think this helps people in
their search for
God. And, so I haven't mentioned it. I
mean my own personal experiences.
I could talk about what I went through
with reason, but I don't want to tell
people what I experienced
on a spiritual level.
So I can't communicate that to you. You
have to sort of either go through it
yourself or what. It's not something that we
could reason about.
But in any case, my study of the
Quran, as you might have observed yesterday,
began as a rational endeavor.
But as I read through it, I slowly
but surely,
slowly but surely began to take on certain
spiritual dimensions.
As I read through the Quran, the further
I got through it, the more the greater
I began to doubt my atheism.
And the more I started to doubt atheism,
the more open I became
to the possibility
of God's existence.
And the more open I came to the
I think as the more open I came
to the possibility of God's existence,
the more I found that the passages in
the Quran
started to move me
in very powerful ways.
I mean, there were times when I would
read the Quran,
and I would just feel this tremendous presence,
about me. There were times when I would
be reading the Quran, and I'd
be moved to tears. And I would cry.
I remember after I read the Sura that
was
and I would
cry. I remember after I read the surah
that was first recited here today, I I
cried like a baby for a half hour.
And I don't know what happened. I don't
even know where those tears came from. They
just poured out of me for a for
a good half hour. I just sat kneeling
on the floor and my head near to
the ground, and the tears just came gushing
out of me. It was like I was
let just letting go. So much pain
and so much hurt, so much anger,
so much suffering.
It just came out.
There were times when I read the Quran
that I just felt that I was in
the presence of this tremendous power and mercy.
And the more I got through the Quran,
the more I began to doubt my atheism,
the more powerful those experiences became.
And so,
you know, and when they kind of first
would start happening, I tried to shake them
off. Because they never came when I wanted
them to come. They just sort of came,
you know,
unanticipated.
And I just at first I did shake
them off. I just blew them off. I
said, you know, it must be something psychological
going on here.
You know, and I, by the time I
finished the Quran,
I had these experiences. I had them repeatedly.
They were powerful. They're unanticipated.
They were recognizable.
But I just,
left them aside,
tried to ignore them.
And then in those 3 or 4 weeks
that passed, and I know this is not
a rational explanation. It's not gonna help anybody
here. But in those 3 or 4 weeks
that passed after that,
when I wasn't reading the Quran anymore,
I started to feel
a loneliness and a kind of longing.
I missed that voice that spoke to me
through the Quran.
I missed the experience.
I felt I had lost I felt a
great sense of loss and isolation.
And,
you know, as time went on, I missed
it more and more. The weeks went past.
I was tortured by it.
And at some point, I realized that there's
just no point in denying it anymore.
You know, the Quran had awakened in me
a spirituality that I thought I never had.
And through that spirituality, it spoke to me.
It spoke to me in a part of
me that I never thought I had.
And as the weeks went by, and I
missed that voice, and I missed that experience,
I came to finally realize that what I
missed was God.
And I know that's a big sounds like
a big leap, but
once you're moved by that and touched by
that and you have that experience,
you know, this you just know it. There's
no point in denying it anymore.
And so, you know, maybe I had to
get all that rational baggage out of the
way.
Maybe I just had to open the door
a little bit of of the possibility,
entertain the possibility of God's existence.
But once I did,
I had some very powerful moving
spiritual, quote unquote spiritual experiences.
And it reached into a part of me
that I didn't know was there. And so,
and so on.
November 8,
1982, I went over to talk to the
Muslim
students
of the University of San Francisco because they
had a mosque in their basement there.
Basement of the church had a little mosque,
a little prayer room. And I went down
there telling myself I was gonna only ask
a few questions, that I definitely wasn't gonna
become a Muslim.
But I went down there just to talk
to them to just talk with somebody about
what I had been through.
And I went down there, and a half
hour later, I came out a Muslim.
And,
so at that point, it seemed like it
happened without my even wanting it to.
You know? So I could give you all
the I could try to rationalize my conversion
to Islam. I could rationalize how I overcame
my rational objections.
I could rationalize about how I
develop questions about the author,
but I honestly,
and I
apologize for this, I cannot rationalize how I
became a Muslim. What finally made me
need that so badly?
You know, I wrote in one book a
mind that, and maybe this is the best
way to say it,
that the nearest and truest answer I could
really give you
when all is said and done is just
this,
that a one special moment of my life,
a moment that I never could have conceived
when I was younger.
I think God in his infinite kindness
and wisdom,
just had mercy on me.
And I don't know why, you know, maybe
he just saw in me
a pain so deep,
an emptiness so vast,
a longing so great. I really don't know
why.
Or maybe he just saw in me a
readiness.
But,
you know, that's the best I could do.
Yeah. Go ahead. Thank you.
We'll get these questions here.
Hi.
When you talk about the Quran being inspired,
from I I listened to
to last night as well. Oh, yes, sir.
Some of it seems like a lot of
the things that that you talked about in
the Quran and that I've seen in the
Quran, aren't they,
really similar to things in the bible? Like,
a story you told last night kinda reminded
me of the book of Job with the
the angels. I mean, not not exactly the
same, but just,
questioning God.
And also
a lot of,
Mohammed's teachings, aren't they
similar to Christ? If not, like, not doing
alms before men to be seen to them.
Aren't they? So how, Yeah. And Confucius and,
you know, many other great
religious teachers. Yep. What would, what would separate
the Quran like as far as just the
moral,
the moral tenants that it has, what would
separate the Quran from
from, like, the New Testament or or other
writings? Like, what what would make that What
special? Do you mean on a moral level?
Well, isn't that what originally you were con
you were concerned about? You said like, it
was just beautiful in the way that it
it taught people how to,
you know, to the moral level. About that.
Yeah.
Yeah. On a moral level, like I'll start.
You can interrupt me when you want. On
a moral level,
you know, both scriptures,
many of the scriptures around the world
teach, you know, goodness, living, you know, being
good, worshiping 1 God or supreme being, etcetera.
And
and that conforms to the whole picture
of revelation in the Quran. Because the Quran
says that, you know, God has revealed the
truth to many people of many nations
many times.
And that,
you know, that
all mankind at this point in history, right,
has been exposed
to the truth
at one at one time in their past.
Every nation has had a messenger, the Quran
says. You know what I mean? So it
would be not surprising to a Muslim then
that the moral teachings and the ethical teachings
of the great world religions
intersect in many ways. Are you following me
up till now? Because there's the same God
behind them all. But what the Quran does
say about them that is that along the
way, though, in the past,
the other scriptures
have been,
in some sense, corrupted.
So that some of those truths have been
mixed with things that are not from God.
Are you following me? Mhmm. And so the
necessity of this revelation.
Okay?
So
the Quran says it is a confirmation of
confirmation of the truth that came before it
and a correction
of
certain things that were corrupted.
That's
that's how the that's how,
the Quran
sees itself in relation to the other scriptures.
The thing that I found different from the
Quran, you know, unique about the Quran, because
you did ask me that just now, the
thing I found unique about the Quran
was what I talked about last night, truly
unique, was that it's tremendous stress on reason,
and the integral role that fundamental role that
reason plays in the attainment of faith and
and in the pursuit of truth.
And that I found that
and not only it's stress, but it's very
rational and almost didactic way. It leads you
and guides you, hopefully, to truth and to
God.
I hate to to open a can of
worms of faith and reason, but,
if if something is reasonable and logical,
does it really take a whole lot of
faith to believe it? I mean, if it
makes perfect sense to you. Well, yes.
It really does.
Because,
at least it did for me. You know,
because as much as the Quran was reasonable
and logical,
you know, when I first started,
I mean the whole idea of becoming a
Muslim,
you know, or embracing this Quran and its
message. I mean, you know, here I had
this message, you know, that I really started
to sense
was truth.
Here I had, you know, my reasons for
not believing in God sort of stripped away.
Here I, you know, had, you know, thought
about my past and felt that I almost
if I reviewed my past, there were moments
when I had almost a natural inclination or
instinct for belief in God. You know, in
moments of crisis or fear, you know, when
you suddenly, you know, suddenly it seems like
you know God better than anybody else. Oh,
God help me, and things like that. You
know, I mean, everything in the
Quran pointed to me, you know, led me
to believe certainly God could exist. Probably God
does
exist, still I was unwilling. The biggest
problem I had was I cannot become a
Muslim. I cannot embrace this message.
Because even though it appealed to me rationally,
I was working at a Catholic school at
that time, the oldest Catholic school in America.
And I thought I was untenured, and I
thought I would lose my job.
I thought my parents would come down on
me. I would have not my parents would
isolate me, would not approve of it, especially
since they were devout Catholics. I thought my
friends would would think I went Arab crazy
in San Francisco.
You know, I thought
I thought that this is a religion associated
with terrorists
and backwards people
and and,
murderers.
And, you know, my
colleagues would start thinking I lost my mind,
especially
conversion. I mean, a math professor is not
supposed to convert to anything. You know?
Seriously,
mathematicians, we're supposed to be, you know, totally,
you know, that that's beyond us. You know,
we're we're way superior to that.
You know, religious belief is that, you know,
try to be a devout
person of any religion and work in a
math department. People look at you as lost
your mind. You know? Even to this day,
I don't I don't even hardly bring up
the issue in the math department. I I
just keep it low key, you know, because
I know my colleagues will think I'm crazy.
You know,
so all these there were all these sort
of personal
problems
with embracing this message. And they were my
biggest barrier to doing that. And that's what
the Quran talks
about. You know, it says that, you know,
people refuse to listen to this message, reject
it out of hand, oppose it, try to
find every reason not to believe it because
of their own personal
wants and desires are suddenly gonna be all
messed up. You know, they're gonna suddenly be
under attack.
And people fear that.
And then and you know, I certainly did.
And so it definitely wasn't easy for me.
And I know for tons of fellow converts
like myself that have embraced this religion, it
wasn't easy for them either for the very
same reasons. They feared their job, they feared
the loss of their family, they feared the
loss of their friends. Maybe it's all imagined.
And it turned out everything I thought was
gonna happen happened to tiny degree, but you
know, nothing like I imagined. I imagined much
worse. My parents were a little upset but
they still love
me. My friends, well, I lost some, but
I gained others.
They didn't fire me from work like I
thought they would. I got tenure and promoted.
Then I moved from there to another university
and got promoted again, you know, to full
professor. But, you know, all these disasters I
thought I would never get be able to
find a woman to marry. And I
found a woman from Saudi Arabia and I
got married. You know?
So I'm sorry I took too long. Do
you have anything else? No. Thank you. Okay.
Thank you. Appreciate it. That
was a good question.
I kinda have, like, a quick question. Did
it ever cross your mind that you might
be overloading the Quran with logic and reasoning
and, Overlooking it? Overloading it. Like, what I
mean by that, like, if you have some
verses talking about, say,
the earth or heavens or Yeah. Yeah. So
did it ever cross your mind that it
might be just a coincidence and you're just
as an mathematician, you're thinking of it this
way? When I you're talking about the signs
of the Quran. Yeah. Yeah. When I read
signs of the Quran, I only thought they
sounded very interesting.
Are you following me? Yeah. I did not
think
this verse is definitely talking about the expansion
of the universe here. You know what I
mean? It piqued my curiosity,
made me wonder,
but I'm, you know, as a scientist I
wasn't gonna say this is an explicit statement
of any particular theory. I just found the
wording extremely intriguing.
Are you following me? So I was not
one of those person to to, you know,
really say, oh, yeah, this is definitely this.
But of course, you have to remember I
was an atheist at that time. I was
already skeptical. I just found but I have
to admit, I found the wording very intriguing
at times.
And it peaked my interest and kept me
going, you know, kept kept me wanting to
go further.
Are you, you know, are you following me?
Yeah. What about the stories, like, when you
say that you take them as okay. Allegory
and etcetera? What about the stories that you
take them as,
symbolic instead of, like, historic? Yeah. Like, some
people might be actually disagreeing with you that
Sure. They might be taken as They must
be taken as history in a certain way.
So do you think it's, like, wrong to
have, like, a certain verse that people are,
looking at it in a different way? I
think people
you know, if I approach a certain verse
and react in a certain way,
I think people, Muslims for example,
should be open to that,
you know, because I'm gonna get the same
moral and spiritual truth from that story
that they are. Are you following me? And
I have to be open to their interpretation
as well.
And as the Quran said, you know,
don't seek discord. Don't argue. You know, don't
let this become a rift between you, such
arguments, you know, over whether this one is
allegorical or this one is not. Explicitly says,
don't, you
know, the people with diseased hearts
do that.
You
know, so
this,
because of the Quran style, because of certain
many things it said like I spoke about
last night,
the role of symbolism in the Quran, Yeah.
Maybe I I admit I might be dead
wrong. I might be reading it dead wrong.
But, you know, I you have to remember,
when I was reading it, I was reading
it from a critical perspective.
But I always
I I don't have many good qualities,
but I think the one good quality I
have
is I'm fair.
And my students always tell me I'm very
fair,
you know. And even when I my wife
is arguing with my daughters,
and I get in between them, and they're
both ready to kill me by the time
I mediate it, they all admit that I'm
very fair. You know, I could just take
myself emotionally out of a situation and just
sort of look at it and analyze it
rationally, you know, and point out to them
each of their points
rationally.
So when I read the Quran,
and I'm looking to criticize it, and this
is the way I look at anything when
I read it from a critical perspective,
I always try to be fair,
not to impose
on the script or whatever I'm reading
an interpretation that forces a contradiction when such
an interpretation or such an imposition is not
absolutely warranted.
Are you following me? And so that's the
way I read the Quran. I was get
I was determined to be open minded. You
know, maybe I bent over backwards to be
so, but I was determined to be open
minded. You know? The same way I read
everything else I've ever read about religion.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Oops. This thing is killing me.
Yes, sir. Yeah. I had a question, concerning,
you described yourself a certain way,
when you were an atheist as far as,
how you felt,
about yourself, you know, internally.
Yeah. What I wanted to know was over
the last 18 or 19 years,
how has that changed,
and how would you describe yourself now?
And what exactly if there's one aspect of
your faith that has,
contributed
more to your spiritual development, what would that
have been? Like, would it have been prayer?
Would been, you know, something
in that respect? Shucks. That's a great question.
I haven't even thought about that.
Have I changed? Well, I've gotten older.
But, you know, so that changes you. But
as, you know, this experience of becoming Muslim
changed me in any essential way.
I don't I'd have to rely on my
friends' opinions for that.
I do know that my friends from in
the past
used to tell me that I had a
certain sadness about me a lot.
That,
in when I was in my early twenties
and in my teenage years,
I seem to, they said I was a
very nice person. I used to make cookies
for them.
I really did. Cakes.
I was a very giving person, really. You
know, even though I thought it was a
doggy doggy dog world, up here, I thought,
you know, this world is just a violent
place and everything like that. But I tried
to make it at least as peaceful around
me and as enjoyable as I can. You
know? And, you know, I had you know,
even though I thought I should just protect
myself and not give to other people like
my father taught me, on the other same
time, my mother's influence was strong, and I
just had a need to to lend people
a helping hand. Plus, I found that pursuing
wealth, even back then, and pursuing money and
pursuing material things, just left me feeling empty
back then. And, also, I was a searching
person back then,
not
back then. And also I was a searching
person back then, not searching for God or
searching for religion, just searching for peace and
happiness, just
feel
disconnected.
You know, I
just feel
disconnected.
You know, that's the way they used to
describe me back then.
My friends now
because I don't know how I appear to
others, you know,
but my friends now tell me that I
seem
at peace with myself. They say I
seem happy. You know, they tell me I
seem together.
You know, they
as far as what has affected
my growth spiritually and I'm not holding myself
up as some kind of model. I'm here
just to present
some rational
perspective on put some rational perspective on the
Quran. So I'm not gonna say I became
some saint or something.
But what has affected whatever growth I have
had this prayer has played a major part.
You know, the the prayer 5 times a
day
has had a tremendous
influence over me. Some of those
prayers
I mean, it's just really hard to describe,
you know, but those but the prayer,
5 times a day, 7 days a week,
every day for the rest of my life,
getting up before dawn, praying at evening, praying
at noon, afternoon,
and right after sunset,
Just doing that every day and trying to
follow this program
that the Quran describes.
It has
the it has just
made me
more and more receptive to those type of
experiences I told you about, you know. Made
me more and more spiritually sensitive. I'll put
it that way,
you know. And it has made it
easier for me to deal with life.
You know?
I see some of the other parents in
my, department.
Oh, my son and daughter did this and
this and this, and they come in frantic.
And my children make mistakes. I have an
older daughter. She is the most rebellious,
brilliant, genius,
headstrong
nutcase in the world.
Erase that from the tape, by the way.
But
but, you know, and she does crazy things
and shocking things,
but, you know, I I just I think
it'll be okay. 1 you know what I
mean? And even if it's not, it's not
all in my hands, you know. Some kids
need to go through
just my whole way, just nothing seems to
rattle me anymore. You know, I'll say that
much. But I don't wanna hold myself up
as some sort of exemplar,
somebody that you should aspire to become, or
anything like that. But becoming a being a
Muslim
has has
whether you think I'm deluded or not, it
has,
given me a lot of peace and serenity.
Yeah. Okay? Thank you for the question.
Okay. We're gonna go to some written ones.
Yeah. Aren't you guys tired yet? Don't you
wanna go home? If anybody sees me putting
questions over here on this pile, it's not
because I oh, I don't wanna have them
ask them that. Some of them, he's answered
through his speeches.
Okay.
Just a quick one here. What does the
Quran have to say about man's relationship with
nature in your opinion?
I'm trying to think about it.
I haven't really thought about that very much.
I really haven't. You know, it's not something
I thought deeply about, so I can't do
much on that one.
You may you cannot You should honor nature.
I know that. You should respect it very
much. You know, because the Quran shows that
you should have so much reverence for nature.
So, you know Verse 29 of Al Baqarah
says that it was all put here for
us to serve us. So, you know, man
should respect nature, be its caretaker,
you know,
and have tremendous,
respect for it, You know? Yeah. Not
You don't have to answer this. This was
probably answered more last night, but you may
have something to say. Why do you think
some people suffer more and some suffer less?
Is it fair?
Yes.
No. I don't know really why always some
people suffer more, some people suffer less. I
think we all suffer
quite a bit, you know. At the same
time, we have different personality. Some of us
could take more and some of us could
take less.
It says in the Quran that God
tests no soul beyond its capacity,
The Quran also says
that when we enter the next life, when
we arise in the next life,
it often compares it to the way we
awaken from a dream.
It talks about the illusory character of life.
It says life is just pomp and illusion.
It shows that when the believers arise on
the day of judgment and they're asked, how
long have you suffered there on earth? They'll
say,
did we suffer there an hour or a
day or less than that?
And those who really know, it says in
the Quran, will tell you, you suffered there
but little if you only knew.
For a short time, if you only knew.
So the Quran, in many many verses, talks
about the illusory character of life. In one
verse, it explicitly compares
the person coming
the way a person is resurrected on the
day of judgment and the way a person,
awakens from a dream.
In the
when it talks about the day of judgment
and when people enter the next life, it
says how they come out of their sleeping
chambers, chambers, how they will swoon and be
groggy, how their vision will first be blurred
like the way you awaken from a dream,
and then it'll become sharp, and they'll see
the reality.
It says that people will, you know, sort
of stumble like the way you stumble out
of bed in the morning, and then, you
know, rush to where they are determined to
go. You know, where they ultimately will have
to go, and so forth. The images in
the Quran, and I know there's some I
believe they're symbolic because it's talking about the
day of judgment, something beyond this perception,
indicate, and are explicit statements that indicate, that
this life, as real as it seems to
us, and it is real, will seem when
we enter to the next life very much
like
a dream, like awakening, say, for example, from
a dream or a nightmare.
You know? So that all the puffed suffering
we went through, all the pain we went
through, all the agony we went through will
suddenly seem like it's just a distant and
vague,
harmless memory.
Are you following me?
Because,
you know, when you're living in a nightmare,
when you're having a nightmare at night, and
you're living it, and your heart is beating
a 1000 beats a minute, and you're suffering
through that nightmare, and you're, you know, you're
in a panic, and etcetera, and you're waking
from that nightmare, and suddenly, you know, you're
still nervous. And then you realize you're awake,
and you're in the greater reality, and you
say to yourself,
oh my God,
it was only a a nightmare. It was
only an illusion. It was only a dream.
You know, the Quran indicates that when we
awaken in the next life, our experience will
be very similar.
All the pain, all the hardship, all the
agony
will just seem like
it was a brief momentary
illusion.
Even though it was very real, even though
it shaped what type of creature we enter
the what type of being we enter the
next life as,
all the suffering, all the agony that we
went through
will be erased.
There's a famous saying of the prophet
upon him, that
says that
when a believer puts his toe steps into
heaven and he's asked to recall all the
suffering that he's gone through on earth, he'll
not remember any of it. And when a
when a rejecter of God puts steps into
what faces him in the next life and
is asked to recall all the joys
and indulgences
and the things he pursued and he enjoyed
in this life, you will not be able
to recall any of it either.
So
in both cases, it'll seem like a distant,
vague event.
But for
those whose balance of goodness is heavy,
to use a chronic terminology in the next
life, when they enter that next life,
all the suffering they went through will seem
very inconsequential,
like awakening from a dream in this life.
So that's one thing you have to remember,
that regardless of who who you are, whatever
agony you're going through through
right now, it seems like there's these great
differentials and things like that, but when we
enter the next life, it's all going to
seem relatively insignificant to all of us. It's
all going to seem insignificant to all of
us. Second thing you have to remember is
that the Quran does tell us that we
got we do face tests in this life,
that God does manipulate the human situation,
puts us in the situations where they were
forced to face sometimes hardship,
sometimes ease,
sometimes we're forced we're forced into making critical
moral choices.
Definitely manipulates human drama,
but he leaves the critical choices up to
us. And he says such things like sometimes
he brings suffering
on those who reject faith so that perhaps
they'll use their reason,
or so that perhaps
they will recall,
or so that perhaps they will reflect on
their situation.
It also says sometimes he brings ease upon
them and
and drowns them in what they're pursuing,
drowns them in their lustful pursuits, drowns them
in their material pursuits,
hopefully so that
they'll realize the purposelessness
of it, the aimlessness of it, the agony
of it, the chaos of it.
Again, so that perhaps they will reflect.
But regardless of whether you're good or bad,
the Quran guarantees it. You will definitely
suffer.
Because this life, you are going to face
adversity. Because through adversity,
you grow.
My high school football coach used to tell
put a placard on the wall. No pain,
no gain.
If you're going to grow physically, you've got
to suffer.
You know, if you want to become a
great athlete, if you want to become physically
fit and powerful, you've got to suffer pain.
No pain, no gain.
A high school teacher used to tell
me, Jeff or students, you gotta work hard,
you gotta struggle, you gotta sacrifice,
you gotta do everything you can, study hard,
work hard. I know it's not easy. You
gotta do it. But to grow intellectually, you
gotta pay the price. They used to But
to grow intellectually, you gotta pay the price,
they used to say.
Well, the Quran says that the same
laws of cause and effect, the same way
God has measured the universe, to use a
chronic terminology,
in terms of our intellectual growth and our
physical growth, any type of growth applies to
spiritual growth as well.
No pain, no gain.
Now, you can't grow in mercy if it
is not suffering, if you're if you know
no suffering.
You know, you can't grow in compassion
if you don't know suffering. You know, you
can't reach out to others if there's no
suffering about you. You know? So it's an
essential element of our growth. I think I
said a lot about that last night, so
I'll cut it quits there. I got carried
away. Sorry. I think it was a good
question.
I have heard that the Islamic view on
the Quran oh, I wanna mention one thing.
I I don't think we're gonna get through
all these questions I've been handing in, but
feel free still to hand them in. He
does like to take them home. It helps
him when in his writing, etcetera. If you
want, I'll just keep the answers very short.
Okay. Okay. I have heard that the Islamic
view on the Quran is that the Quran
is the final revelation.
It,
it will be,
kept unaltered.
Why didn't god keep a previous revelation unaltered?
Why did god wait until 6 40 AD
and allow so many people who had lived
previously to live without the truth?
Why did he not?
I don't know.
No. I really don't.
Mean, God only knows what type of people
he is dealing with throughout
history.
You know, God knows, you know, in the
earlier history,
if you if you look, you know, sort
of sort of example when Christianity
came into being, you know,
maybe God knew that it would spread to
the Roman Empire and that it'd be influenced
by
Roman
beliefs,
you know, and man gods and etcetera. You
know, maybe you knew that. I
really don't know, you know, to tell you
the truth. The only thing I could say
is that, you know, he picked,
picked
the right moment in history. You know, and
man was under the verge of,
he picked and well, no. I really don't
know. I have to think about it some
more. I could tell you why, what necessitate
the
coming of the revelation of this scripture.
And I I think I talked about that
a little bit earlier.
But why that particular moment history, not 300
years later or 300 years earlier or 700
years later? I would assume it was the
right moment in time,
when the when civilization when mankind was ripe
for
that. But, you know, I would that would
mean I'd have to have a knowledge that
is beyond me. You know? The knowledge of
human nature community
could
carry that message and preserve it. Okay. But
community could carry that message and preserve it.
Question. What could you say as to whether
the Quran has ever been changed since its
revelation?
What? What could you say to whether or
not the Quran has been changed since its
revelation?
Oh, it is not. Okay. What's the next
question?
No. I mean, you know, for me that
was not an issue, to be frank.
Because by the time I was done reading
the Quran, I had never gotten involved in
the, in this, in the question
of whether it was
the preserved
revelation
received
by the prophet,
peace be upon him. And the reason why
I say that is because
by the time I was finished,
like I said before, I recognized that the
personality behind these revelations was 1.
There was no other it was obviously
question of the historical accuracy of the revelations
was never was just a side issue for
me when I finally,
when I finally came to it.
When I did come to it,
the historians reported, and even many western historians,
believe the same,
that the Quran was compiled and organized
and completely
determined,
you know, during the prophet's
lifetime.
And as far as its order and its
structure and everything, that was complete
in its life in his lifetime.
But after he died,
his the community, you know, under the leadership
of,
under the authority of its leader, Abu Bakr,
his first successor,
you know, had a official
recension
done,
compiled,
written,
completed,
you know, a year or so after his
death.
Although most there are many in the community
that had it fully memorized
as many, many Muslims do today. Many it's
very easy to memorize. Even I know a
30th of the Quran. I could memorize it
by heart. And I know, you know, and
it wasn't important in Arabian culture. It's extremely
easy to memorize. Part of it the reason
why it's so easy to memorize is because
of its what I talked about before, it's
it's
meter and rhyme and etcetera. It makes it
very easy to memorize. It's very easy to
memorize those type of things. You know, like
a lot of people can't even speak English
that could memorize American songs,
you know, from front to back. I know
kids that couldn't speak a word of English
23 year period of the Prophet's life, the
last 20
revealed over a 23 year period of the
prophet's life, the last 23 years.
His companions, he
the historians report that he taught his companions
how to memorize it. They they took it
down in written written form, that many of
them had written records of the Quran.
An official recension was done and collated and
checked and double checked and triple checked after
the immediately after the prophet died shortly after
the prophet died within a year's time. The
prophet died, shortly after the prophet died within
a year's time.
Another
critical
check
and examination was made again shortly after that,
another 10 or 15 years. And many many
official copies were made and spread throughout the
Islamic world because it was spreading far and
wide.
And, and since then,
even, Western critics of Islam admit that for
certain after that period there could have been
no possible change. Because we have
versions of the Quran that go back to
that very period.
You know, so from a historical perspective, I
guess, there's a great deal of certainty about
the that the fact that the Quran represents
nothing more than the revelations which, even from
a western perspective,
the the prophet proclaimed.
So, you know, know, but that like I
said, that was not an issue for me.
I was already convinced that it was from
God
long before I, stumbled on that. And that's
not the reason why I believed it was,
you know. But, you know, I was willing
to accept that. There's no reason for me
to doubt that. And like I said, a
lot of western historians, there are some that
disagree. There are some that challenge that. And
there are some that agree with that. But
they're not my final authority either, you know.
But in any case, that's all I have
to say about that, Kyle. K.
This is a little long. I'll try to,
make it clear. You said yesterday that it
is necessary
for someone to become like another person in
order to know and to love that person,
and that we are meant to become loving,
compassionate,
etcetera, like god.
But you did not elaborate on exactly how
it is possible for us to come to
know,
I I assume god.
Does god approach us through word or through
presence or from a Muslim
point of view, does he approach us at
all? And if not, in what way are
we able to come to be like him
at all? And then he makes a comment,
Thomas
Aquinas, a doctor of the Catholic church from
the middle ages, emphasizes the compatibility of faith
and reason as does the church and has
written a book called Faith and Reason.
I'm just remembering the one verse about God
speaks to you from Revelation,
inspiration, etcetera. So just to put that in
your head even though I know you told
me that. Yeah.
Yes. I know it's about,
Saint Thomas Aquinas. The attack on
on faith and reason began during the renaissance.
And after the renaissance, that became an issue,
the incompatibility
of faith and reason. When the agnostic and
rather modern
problem.
Yeah. There were others as well, not just
Saint Thomas Aquinas. There were other of the
church fathers that insisted on the compatibility of
faith and reason.
But I was talking mostly about the modern
situation.
Now the, one about how does God approach
this? Oh, yeah. I didn't say that you
had to become like another person
to be able to grow near to them.
I was saying that what allows us to
know another person is the type of things
we share with them.
Okay?
And,
and I said that we can get to
know another person, human being, because we have
ex so many similar experiences.
And the more
and the more that we share with them,
the closer we could get. That's how we
could become intimate with another human being. And
I said the problem that we face is
how does one become intimate with God? When
we are finite and he is infinite, when
we are
mortal and he is immortal, where he is
transcended,
and we are
very much fixed in time and space,
you know, limited by it, when in almost
when he is transcends
the very environment that we are stuck in,
you know, and where he has,
you know, the out, you know, where his
being is so very different from ours.
You know, how can we grow near to
him? And And I was telling him that
what the Quran
indicates
is that we could grow near to him
not so much through somebody left their glasses
up here by the way. We could grow
near to him, not through much so much
just through reason,
but we could grow near to him through
experience.
Because I said in the Quran, I'll just
review it just quickly, it says in the
Quran the attributes of God,
the most beautiful names of God as it
calls it. He is the merciful, the compassionate,
the forgiving, the just, the kind. So in
earth, the more we grow in
forgiveness,
the more the closer we grow towards God's
forgiveness. The more we grow in compassion, the
more we are able to receive and experience
God's infinite compassion.
The more we come to know of love,
the more we can receive and experience God's
infinite love, and so forth. Not just in
ritual, which is one very intimate way to
experience it, but in many ways else, and
so much more when we reach the next
life, when all the rational when all the
distractions
are stripped away.
You know, so I talked about that.
When we experience
mercy, for example,
or any when we grow in the attributes
that have God as their infinite and perfect
source,
it's not just a matter of experiencing them
on a personal level,
we experience
something much greater.
Because the Quran teaches us that God is
the source of all the mercy, all the
compassion, all the forgiveness,
all the justice, all the truth that exists,
period.
So when we show compassion to another person,
god's compassion
is coming to that person
through us. We become instruments of God's compassion.
When we show mercy to another person, God's
mercy
is coming through us
to that person.
And for a for a for a moment,
we experience
some of God's infinite mercy,
a fraction of God's infinite mercy as our
own.
So that other people experience God's being
through
us.
And that is a level of intimacy that
we cannot even attain with another human being.
You know, I could
I can't walk in your shoes,
you know, I can't experience
what you experience.
I might be able to relate to it
by relating it to what I've experienced,
but this is a much more intense
intimacy
because
people are experiencing God's being
through us, and they're experiencing God's mercy towards
them, God's compassion towards them, God's forgiveness
towards them through our through us.
Through us. And so we are experiencing
that mercy and compassion and forgiveness, etcetera,
as part of our own.
It's a level of intimacy that is extremely
close, closer than we could achieve with any
other being.
But as I said,
through prayer and through other means, we also
come to experience as we become grow in
these attributes, grow in these qualities
and it's hard to summarize this in all
2 minutes, but as we grow in these
qualities and follow this development,
and grow and and grow in faith and
grow in goodness
through prayer and ritual
and through
moments in our life that that are unanticipated.
We experience God's presence, his nearness, his beauty.
And this is something that it's hard to
explain, but we experience them in very powerful
ways that are more real for us than
walking on the ground.
But you know, I don't know what else
you want me to say about that. So
we experience him through his presence, through his
light as the Quran says, through his beauty,
through his power.
We experience it in our lives in a
very intimate way. Yes. I have, kind of
an open ended question, so I wanna keep
you talking, too long. You talking or not?
No. No. Not too long
though. Is I was wondering how does the
CRAN address issues of diversity and more specifically
things like race,
gender,
sexual preference, etcetera.
If it does, and how so?
Well, it doesn't let me see.
Does it address the issue of diversity
in race, for example?
Yeah.
You know, it said, O mankind, we created
you of different nations and colors and hues,
so that you will come to know one
each other. Truly the most noble of you
in the sight of God is he who
is most
virtuous, for example. You know, something to that
effect. I'm paraphrasing. You know?
And,
throughout the Quran, you know, it stresses that
we could have made you all homogeneous,
all one. But we made, you know, but
we but but we did not. It was
not our intention. So vie with one another
in doing good.
Are you following me?
And,
and so the point in the Quran as
far as racial diversity goes is that it
was God's intention to make people different, because
it's through dealing with people that are different
from us that we have the greatest opportunities
to grow.
You know, it's easy to show compassion to
my daughter.
It's hard for me to show compassion
to somebody who very different from me, from
a foreign land
or a wayfarer as the Quran describes.
You know, somebody that and it stresses
showing kindness to such people outside your natural
environment.
You know, those are the greatest tests and
means to grow.
Let's see.
Female,
male female type things.
Quran talks about how men and women will
both be in paradise. You know, how they
have the same
ethical and moral responsibilities and opportunity and spiritual
opportunities to grow for men who surrender themselves
to unto God and women who surrender themselves
unto God, for men who pray to God,
for women who pray to God, for men
who are devout, for men who are it
goes down this long list. For men who
do that, women for God has promised them
forgiveness and a vast reward.
You know?
So there's that aspect of the Quran.
The what's the other one? Sexual preference. Sexual
preference.
The Quran really doesn't talk about that,
so much.
It does repeat the story of the people
of Lot,
you know. And it says that they
engaged
in all sorts of abominations,
that they committed highway robbery,
that they committed * of,
passersby.
In the story,
the crowds from the people of Lot come
and attack
the the visitors of the prophet Lot and
wanna take them and make use of them.
And it says they committed atrocities in their
public assemblies,
and for that, God has destroyed them, you
know, etcetera.
That's about the only issue, you know, that
it really deals with something close to what
you talked about.
Although, I I know, of course, every normal
human being would object to,
that, of course. But, you know, I'm talking
strictly from the point of view of the
Quran,
you know, but it definitely condemns them for
for those,
for that for what they did the activity
that they got involved
in. And it got does go into,
you know,
does paint a very sorry picture of the
people, to tell you the truth.
I'd like to ask you, like,
I'm a Muslim, but,
some sisters ask me this question.
After someone embrace embraces Islam, could he get
out of Islam
and try to experience some other religion? Say
that again. If someone embraces Islam Yes. Could
he get out of Islam and try to
express Could he or could he? Could he
or could she or Could he or could
she?
Oh, so you're asking me could he or
she? Could he or she? I suppose it's
possible.
I mean, I've seen
people,
become Muslims in America and then become Buddhists
thereafter and things like that. Some Americans just
give it a shot.
And
what
and what about from the Islamic perspective?
I mean, is it The Quran says they
definitely should not do that.
You know, the Quran says that, you know,
for those people who believed
and then disbelieved
and then believed and that's disbelieved,
You know, it says that God will, you
know, that they will suffer severe I can't
remember exactly, but they will suffer severely for
that in the hereafter.
And why is People make their religion a
toy and believe and disbelieve and believe and
disbelieve. Yeah. Exactly. And why is that?
Well, because they're taking the religion as a
joke. You know what I mean? They're not
being sincere at all. They're using the religion
for their own gains. They believe when it's
convenient.
They disbelieve when it's it's talking about certain
people who believe when it suits their
their material purposes and then disbelief when it
doesn't. Are you following me? And then belief
so they're actually raising the making their material
their personal,
worldly
needs, they're putting that before
the worship of God. They're manipulating religion to
serve their worldly means,
which is, you know, exactly the opposite of
what it should be. Are you following me?
Yeah. But, you said, I think in the
last lecture, that you have to experience it
spiritually.
So, I mean, the sister, she said she
wants to experience it spiritually
over Islam, over Christianity,
Judaism.
She she really wants to experience it not
she just doesn't want to make it a
toy, but she really wants to experience it.
Oh. So now Well, I think, you know,
I can't tell I can't tell her what
to do. You know, if she would like,
you know, I'm saying that,
you know, the most important thing is not
taking it as a toy. You know, I
can't reach into her heart and know what
her motivations are, or what she's going through.
I would probably have to talk to her
about that. But you're asking me to answer
way beyond what I could do just standing
here listening to your question. But the most
important thing is don't take a religion as
don't, you know, God is the Quran is
telling us, don't take the religion as a
sport. You know, don't take it as something
lightly.
No, these are serious matters. And don't especially
use religion to serve your needs.
Rather, you should
serve
God
in your,
pursuit of religion, not the other way around.
Make God serve you in your pursuit of
worldly gains.
Okay. Yeah.
Assalamu alikum. This Thank you. Letter says. Yes.
I unfortunately forget the author's name, but there
is a book out now called The God
Part of the Brain. This book claims that
through evolution, humans have developed a belief in
God,
quote unquote, or a quote unquote higher morality
for the sake of communal cooperation and survival.
What is your argument to this? Also, when
do you expect the next book to be
finished? Thank you. May Allah reward you, god
willing.
The God part of the brain? I've never
read that book, I'll tell you the truth.
I don't believe it. I don't know. I
mean, I don't believe we just developed this
system of, this idea of a supreme being
just as a convenience,
you know.
But, you know, that's just the theory,
you know, and a rationalization and explanation of
things.
And, you know, I I could understand how,
you know, somebody might devise that. I don't
I don't believe it's true, but, you know,
that person will the author of that will
have to go through their own search, their
own experiences.
We'll have their
up the Quran points out they would they
will definitely be presented opportunities
when they
will they'll be given opportunities,
presented with critical opportunities to rethink
the whole idea of whether there is a
God and whether it exists and what is
truth and what whatsoever.
But, you know, I can't correct everybody's,
you know since I don't believe a theory
and I don't know about it
and, you know, I'll be honest with you.
I mean, these theories come across come along
all the time.
They come into being, and then that one
gets thrown out, and then another, and then
the right ones get thrown out. You know,
I never found them very satisfying or appealing.
Yeah.
Do you wanna take questions about, like, Islamic
law? The book will I don't know. Probably
come out in about 2 years. Oh, I
see. The reason being is because I could
only write it for about 2 hours a
day. I I could reserve
2 blocks 2 hour block every day to
write. That's all I have. Because I have
a lot of work at the university.
I'm also building 10 houses right now because
I got into a little bit of a
side business so I could get my daughters
married and through college someday.
The university jobs don't pay a whole lot.
And,
in addition to that, I'm speaking, like, twice
a semester,
and I'm trying to raise 3 daughters.
The the oldest one is as wild as
could be. And,
and she's, intellectually, she's an extremely great challenge,
and I'm trying to be a good,
husband to my wife. And with all that
going, I really only have about 2 hours
a day to do what I'm doing. And
yet, you know, when I think of the
prophet, peace be upon him, the prophet Mohammed,
he was run not doing not only doing
probably all those things, you know, things similar,
had all those duties. He was also running
a country. He was also,
leading his,
and and developing a community. He was dealing
with delegations all the time coming to him,
talking to people about this faith, and etcetera.
And
that was one thing that also made me
question
authorship of the Quran, because how if I
could only it takes me 2
years, about 4 or 5 years, 2 hours
a day to write a book, when would
such a man have time
to compose
something so
coherent and powerful, beautiful,
intricate in its logic?
You know, that was also a I just
I suddenly thought of it as I was
talking to you here, as I was complaining
about all the burdens that I have. But
I won't get into that. I'll just say
this, that, I can only write for about
2 hours a day.
Okay.
Through your studies of Islam,
what is the Islamic
what is, the Islamic view of Jesus' return
to us before judgment and also a possible
antichrist?
Well, the belief in Jesus' return to for
judgment and the antichrist
grew up in the Christian,
developed in the Christian religion.
The vast majority of Muslims
and I don't know if they've been affected
by Christian converts or whatever,
but the vast majority of Muslims,
I think,
accept that to some degree.
There are some that didn't. There were some
Muslim commentators and some Muslim rationalists in the
early history of Ridlant
that did not accept those,
2 those 2 things you mentioned. They're not
what Muslim scholars used to call
essential beliefs,
you know.
The most you could say about them is
the vast majority of Muslims believe in them
and they interpret certain
1 or 2 verses in the Quran and
think that it's pointing to them.
There are have been other Muslim scholars, and
even modern day Muslim scholars like Mohammed Asad,
for example, and others,
who have
not accepted that and felt that that came
from Christian and Christian influence, the influence of
Christian converts.
I personally
have my doubts about it.
But again, that's not, you know, and I'm
in a minority in that.
But I have my own arguments, which I
don't want to get into now. But, you
know, it is a I would say in
the Muslim circles, it is a debatable point
in the sense that it's not something that
another Muslim would say, you're outside the boundaries
of this faith.
How do you feel about music in regards
to Islamic law? Good or bad, right or
wrong? Good or bad, right or wrong.
Yeah. This is something,
that has been debated a lot in the
United States, especially among the African American Muslims.
I've never really gotten in see, I mean,
to be honest with you, all these practical
type of questions,
they've never really interest me.
I'm not a practical thinker.
You know, I don't like applications.
And not that I don't like applications, I
just don't
have a mind for it. I've always sort
of been sort of a theoretical type. You
know, I like pure mathematics. Applied mathematics has
always bored me. You know, so I'm not
very good at getting down to earth on
such issues. I've never really explored it very
much. I'll say this much, that and I
think an argument can be made
an argument has been made against music, certainly
in the past,
by some Muslim
scholars and some eminent ones.
And
and and arguments have been made on the
other side too. That
music, as long as it's not obscene,
you know, or
or songs or etcetera that do not violate,
Islamic principles,
you know. If that's the case, then they're
okay. I've heard arguments on both sides. I've
heard the Hadiths that were summoned on both
sides, and, some are authentic, some are not.
A lot of it is a matter of
interpretation.
These are issues that, you know, I get
I tell the truth, I get a little
bored with. I'm sorry.
Yesterday, you talked about suffering.
Yes. And we had to, suffer to be
loving and compassionate, etcetera.
Do you think that you had to suffer
during your childhood because of that? You also
talked about forgiveness. Were you able to forgive
your father?
Who asked that question?
That is such a great question.
Yeah. Did I have to suffer through my
childhood?
I asked, you know, I've asked my,
you're asking me right now, and now I'm
asking myself for the first time. I don't
know. I just never really thought of it.
I guess so.
Definitely.
You know, as you ask me that right
now, I don't even resent having the childhood
I had.
I don't complain, you know, and I don't
and I definitely don't feel sorry for myself.
I'll tell you the truth. I'm glad. I
thank God I had the childhood I had,
because it has taught me a lot.
And I think if I hadn't had it,
having having the way I'm thinking I had,
I would have never really
probably discovered
God
again. You know, but those questions that burned
inside me, you know, they've made me what
I am.
You know, and and honestly, at this stage
in my life,
I like myself
again.
And,
and I found a lot of beauty
through those questions.
So no, I I don't resent them, and
I don't
and I'm not angry at my father anymore,
to tell you the truth.
You know, I still have pain, you know,
and I still
hurt sometimes,
but I needed that.
You know, and
and I thank God for it.
It. And as far as my father goes,
he was a complex man.
He
had his inner rage,
but he stuck by his family. He didn't
abandon them.
He
played a role in raising his kids.
He wasn't perfect.
He did believe in God
very much.
He had sort of just a personal belief
in God. He didn't really
he wasn't close to any particular religious dogma
view, but he had a very deep belief
in God, fear of God even.
But,
no. I I forgive my father.
You know, I hope, you know, none of
us are perfect.
And,
I believe that,
you know, I believe that
he was all you know, as hard as
he was, as much pain as he caused,
you know,
I I don't I don't I'm not angry
at my father.
I'm simply not, and I certainly forgive him.
Them. Yeah,
I forgive them. I hope that I don't
end up, you know, hurting people.
It's taught me a lot. I hope I
don't end up hurting people. You know, but
I definitely forgive him. You know, and the
damage doesn't have to be lasting. I have
plenty of choices to make after that.
You know, my father didn't make me into
the type of person I was. No. I
had plenty of choices to make in my
life. Yeah.
Have you learned to read Koranic Arabic yet?
I studied Arabic grammar for a couple of
years. I could slowly but surely make my
way through a passage. You know, I can't
just pick it up and, you know, recite
it. A lot of people could do that
even though they don't understand Arabic.
But when I go through the Quran and
research the Quran,
I get out my
Arabic lexicons
and dictionaries,
and I
I, go through the words one at a
time and and go back and study the
grammar
to make sure I'm not interpreting something in
a wrong way. Because sometimes,
if you go back to the original language
and
analyze it for exactly as it said, you
could uncover very deep and profound things that
are easily missed in translation.
And I found this happened again and again
and again when I read the Quran,
That the translator,
even though he's very sincere and trying to
do an excellent job, you know, just changes
a word here or there, or changes the
tense because he feels it must mean this,
even though it says this.
And when I go back and study it
in its original,
what it originally and literally says, I discover
things that you would never find from a
translation.
So, you know, and I hope someday
that I become even I hope that I
get stronger and stronger
in, my knowledge of Arabic and grammar and
my research abilities,
but I'm not fluent in it. I only
have sort of a a literary skill, where
I could read it and analyze it very
slowly and very methodically.
You know, sometimes it takes me a day
or 2 to analyze a single verse,
And sometimes weeks.
Yeah.
This question, I'm I'm not sure what it
means, but it says, you are a Muslim
now, I suppose.
Do you follow all the Islam's instructions and
rules in your daily life? Thanks.
Yes. I I suppose I'll enlist them.
Do I follow all of them?
I don't know. You know, I'm not holding
myself up as a perfect person.
You know, I don't know if any of
us follow all of them, you know, what
we're supposed to follow.
But,
it's terms of the you know, I think
it might be referring to the rituals and
the major,
practices
and things that we Muslims are supposed to
live by. I do the very best I
can,
You know? And I and I do my
very best. And when I fall short
if I fall short, knowingly or unknowingly,
I hope god will continue to help me
and guide me and have mercy on me.
Could you maybe just one quick thing? And
we a lot of people here may,
I'm not sure if we'll see again. Maybe
just one,
discussion of what Islam and Muslim, what those
two terms mean? It's because I think a
lot of times people categorize religion as this
religion, that religion. If they could at least
know what those two terms mean, it might
help also unrestrained. Yeah.
Islam means,
self surrender,
surrender,
capitulation.
You know, when I became a Muslim, I
felt I surrendered.
You know, I surrendered to an irresistible truth.
I surrendered
to myself,
to a God that I had resisted
all my life. You know, I surrendered
to a truth that I maybe fought against
and denied.
You know, so it means sort of like
a peaceful
surrender, surrender to peace, an acquiescence
to mercy and to truth and to God.
You know? So, you know, self surrender
is the what Islam
literally means. A Muslim
is from the same root, you know, the
same Arabic root that surrender comes from. A
Muslim is one who surrenders themselves
to god.
Thank you. Thank you.
I can't read the first part, but I
I think the second part of this is
a a lot more interesting.
One thing you've already answered also. Say one
has
accepted the oneness of god
through
reasoning,
does the Quran
tell the person to also reason with the
commandments in the Quran such as prayer, etcetera,
or simply obey it?
Oh,
boy. I mean, how do you reason commandments?
I don't You know, the I'm trying to
think. Does the Koran Koran tells you always
to use your reason. I mean, definitely.
You know, but let's see. Does it tell
you to reason about the commandments?
I I know it tells you to reason
about faith, you
know, and belief,
and about God, and your relationship to God,
you know, but the Quran, I think, doesn't
present its commandments
as debatable points.
Are you following me?
So I would take I would say, you
know, it presents them as commandments.
I don't think commandments are, by definition, something
that you're supposed to debate or, you know,
reason.
Not that, you know, you don't use your
reason
when you approach them. For example, there's a
verse that tells you that when you prepare
for war,
multiply your horses
among you know, gather up your horses to
drive fear in the hearts of enemies known
and unknown,
You know, to act in other words, to
act as a military deterrent,
because in those days,
cavalry
was something that, you know, drove fear into
the hearts of your enemies and would prevent
them from attacking you if they thought you
had a powerful cavalry.
Well, today, I mean, a Muslim leader taking
his army into battle, I I wouldn't think
he would say, do we have the horses?
You know, gather up the horse. What happened
to the horses? We got the tanks, we
got the submarines,
we got where are the horses?
You know, did anybody get the horses?
You know?
No, I I don't think so. I mean,
so in that sense you do use a
certain amount of reason, you know, you understand
that these were revealed in a certain context,
but they might be able to be general
ized to another context.
Now, when the second caliph,
the second successor
of,
the success you know, after Abu Bakr, the
first leader of the community,
after the prophet, after him came a caliph
by the name of Omar.
And there was a time of severe famine
and
tremendous strain on people and widespread poverty and
starvation.
And during that period, the Quran has punishment,
you know, stipulated punishment for theft. Well, during
that period, Umar rescinded the punishment
because he you know, because in his thinking,
he felt that it would be people were
driven
under under the abnormal
strain and conditions that they were under, in
this severe famine, they were driven to maybe
because of the facing of starvation and their
fears, to do something,
acts that they would normally not do.
So he lightened the sentence and punishment in
such a case. So again, he used a
certain amount of what you would call in
Arabic, ichdihad, you know, personal
reflection and thought
and reason.
You know, so when you tell me when
you ask me that question, I have to
qualify it. You see what I mean? Yes,
I mean there are commands but there are
always issues of context, whether you're following the
spirit of the revelation,
whether you are what you're doing is accomplishing
this what it the purpose that it ob
you know, that it's pointing to. Are you
following
me?
I'm gonna kinda paraphrase this. I think I
know what they're getting at. Some of these
questions just don't have yes and no answers,
in other
words.
The
message
of being,
believing,
and doing good deeds,
is seen in the Quran,
that this is just not enough, That this
this that there must be an adherence to
this oneness
of god
and and that this won't be forgiven. It's
the only thing that won't be forgiven is
is association.
SHIRK. Yeah. So
why is that such a big deal if
really just believing and doing good deeds from
what you have said earlier is really Yeah.
Believing in believing in one God
and doing good deeds. You know, that's the
formula throughout the Quran for success.
For those who believe and do what is
right, they will have an unfailing reward.
You know, so that is much stress. There
is a verse,
you know, there's a verse in the Quran
that says, oh you
have oh you who have sinned against yourselves,
never despair of the mercy of God, for
God forgives all sins. But yet there's another
verse that says almost the same thing, but
it says the one sin that will not
be forgiven
is the stubborn and persistent
denial,
conscious denial
of truth.
The setting up of
the insistence on worshiping, putting false gods,
whether that and the Quran gives examples, not
just concrete examples,
but lust, power,
money, the pursuit of material things,
the stubborn and contumacious
insistence
on putting those type of things
before
the worship of God.
The conscious denial
of God and setting up other gods,
other personal deities
before that is the one thing that will
utterly destroy a person, no matter what, you
know. And it's obvious why, you know. Because
if we are going to come to know
and relate and experience
God's being and beauty and etcetera,
then if we do that, we've utterly destroyed.
We've taken the absolute antithetical
lifestyle to what we're supposed to achieve. We've
pursued the antithesis of that.
You know? And the Quran says that that
is
unacceptable. I think I'm gonna force you a
little bit more on this question because I
heard a good question last night on this
issue.
You mentioned all the things, that god is,
the merciful, the forgiving, the kind, the just,
etcetera.
And I heard somebody ask up after the
lecture,
well,
couldn't you build up a little idol or
a rock or something and put all those
qualities on that idol
and and,
and grow still. Something that helps you focus
your devotion, etcetera.
Yeah. I've heard that many times. Why is
that why would that be so bad? Or
or why is it seen as so bad
in the Quran? Yeah. So the question is,
what about idol worship? What's the big deal?
What's the big deal about putting up a
stone
that helps you focus your attention
on the deity?
You're following me? Yeah. You don't really believe
that the stone is God, but it helps
you focus your worship. So you worship the
stone and, you know, sort of mentally,
you know, that it's not necessarily
such a bad thing.
Or you know, okay, what if you say
a man is sort of reveals God in
this very special way, and so is the
Son of God, but not really God. But
you know,
something like that. I'm not referring just to
Christian
Christianity. I'm just saying in general, there've you
know, many
beliefs like that throughout many religions over the
years. I don't wanna get on to Christian's
case or anybody's case in this audience. But
why from the standpoint of the Quran
is such terminology which is many pea which,
you know, when people frame it don't really
take it all that literally.
Why is that kind of association with God
dangerous?
And,
you know, a good
illustration of that is the Quran when it
says just talks about terminology people uses, the
importance of terminology.
It says, the Jews say Ezra is the
son of God.
Now everyone knows that when the when the
term son of God is used in Jewish
circles and in the Old Testament, it's definitely
not to be taken literally. It means one
who is loved by God. If you look
in the Old Testament, the Jews are strict
monotheists.
The term appears quite often there, son of
God. This one is the son of God,
that one is the son of God. Jews
are the children of God, etc.
And the verse says, the Jews say Ezra
is the son of God, the Christians say
Jesus is the son of God. And then
it says, you know, don't say that. It
imitates
the statements of idol worshipers of old.
What seems to be the point there?
It's because, yes, certainly you might make a
statement like that and you may have it
understand it in a symbolic sense.
You may understand it in a highly intellectual
way that maybe doesn't even conflict with monotheism.
But the problem is is that when you
when others start hearing you preach that statement,
others start adhering to that statement, others may
not take it in the same way, may
not at all understand it in the same
way you do. It's easy to degenerate those
sort of statements, those sort of dogmas, into
becoming simple and unadulterated
idol worship.
Are you following me?
It's very easy to corrupt
such notions.
I'll give you an example.
Maybe I will like to pray to that
sign,
right, just so I could focus
my attention on God. And every day, I'll
worship that. And to show my love for
God, I will bring over here food and
and everything every day, you know, and put
flowers around it and make it the object
and purpose of my worship,
the attention of my worship.
And then my children
might start doing the same.
My children say, daddy, this is what the
religion about? Yes, this is what the religion
about. We focus on this.
And my children might do it in a
very primitive way.
Okay? And they may understand it in a
much more primitive way. And then their children
may start seeing them doing the same. But
the problem is, is that the more you
do that, suddenly it starts to seem ridiculous
to people.
There's a lot of people who are sincere
in their desire to follow the truth who
start doing that and seeing that and saying
that doesn't make any sense.
And instead of that becoming something that could
bring someone closer to God,
instead it becomes a barrier between
people and belief in God. Are you following
me?
So whenever you corrupt religion in that way,
it could actually work against
the benefit of humanity.
So that people, through use of such terminology,
for devotion to such idols,
it's a eventually the religion and the faith
become totally ineffectual,
especially as people advance
and gain in knowledge, you know, among primitive
people, you know, they might just accept it.
But as they become more mature and as
they're exposed to greater learning, they look at
that and they become totally adverse to it.
What is this primitive stuff we're doing over
here? This is embarrassment.
Bowing down to rocks and stones?
But it's only an object.
If this religion is crazy.
Look in the west, how many people have
left their religions, traditions behind
Because they say, this doesn't make sense.
This is too much like the idol worshipers
of old.
I can't I can't buy into that dogma.
The problem is is when we develop our
own means,
you know, we corrupt the truth, corrupt,
monotheism.
To even a slight degree, we we construct
a barrier
to
so many people.
Right? We actually erect barriers to belief in
god. No. I don't know if I did
a good job of that, but I'm running
out of gas. Appreciate it. There's one question
here you already you already answered, and then
somebody just asked had he done Hodge before.
And he said last night that he had
he had been on Hodge.
You said that people who do righteous deeds
according to what they know
will seek heavens.
I think it will I think it's just
saying are seeking heaven. Then does that make
ignorance a sin from a Muslim's perspective?
I'm not sure what what they're asking. Is
ignorance a sin from a Muslim's perspective? How
about we keep it there? Yeah. And so
it's a couple of times the Quran says
that you are not, you know, you are
not punished for what you do in ignorance.
You know what I mean? But it has
to be true and sincere ignorance. Right. You
know, there are people that are just not
exposed
to certain truths.
And when they're not exposed to certain truths,
they do not reject them consciously.
You know, but it is the conscious,
stubborn
rejection of truth
from which we suffer,
you know. So you take someone like my
mom,
she wasn't really quite sure what
what good trinity meant to her. She really
didn't. You know, and I would ask her,
what does it actually mean? She would just
say, it's a mystery, Jeff.
You know, it is a dogma of our
church, but it's a mystery. I don't know
exactly what it means.
But I know there is a God, and
there is one God, and I love that
God. Are you following me?
And yet, you know,
she had this
sort
of mysterious
assumption about the trinity that you didn't really
know what it represented.
You know, but from a Muslim perspective, and
I'm not trying to attack Christians here, from
a Muslim perspective, you know, if what my
mom knew, you know,
believed on, you know, because that's all she's
ever been exposed to,
and she never had
been presented with an alternative.
And she just died a very believing
and devout woman who did very good deeds,
from a Muslim perspective she cannot be blamed
for that.
But if I came to her, you know,
and started to, you know, discuss things with
her, and I made it plain what I
think, and God only knows what, you know,
how good a job I'm doing and how
what her capacity is to understand what I
am saying, and etcetera. God only knows.
But you know, if at some point
she sensed a truth in what I was
saying or even a superiority,
you know, she sensed that what I was
saying made more sense, seemed more real,
seem more accurate
than what she believed, but she stubbornly clung
to this
because she was afraid that her husband would
reject her, or that all her friends would
mock her, or something like that.
You know, she was, you know, feared the
personal material
and and social price she would pay
by even considering this. And only God knows
whether, you know,
she really would have done that or not.
If that's it, then I would say that,
you know, when a person does that,
they're doing damage to themselves. Definitely.
You know, they're doing great damage to themselves.