Ingrid Mattson – Zakat Matters Iqbal Nasim
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That most Muslims
still do not understand.
Well, they know well, they know that zakat
is obligatory. They still think of it as
charity.
Centralization has a great benefit Mhmm.
Say, within a certain area because
then you aren't relying on everyone being kind
of woke or aware, you know, and the
issue isn't only about
meeting basic needs.
The issue is about the gap
between rich and poor. Mhmm.
Closing that gap is one of the points
of local zakat distribution.
The hope is that we can arrive at
a position of
of a certain measure of stability
So that, of course, in life,
disasters happen,
there are always people who have extraordinary needs,
but that we're not in a constant crisis
mode.
Doctor Ingrid. Assalamu alaikum.
Let me start off by saying how what
a pleasure and honor it is to to
be with you here today.
When I started my
zakat journey, as I like to call it,
at the end of 2011,
And I was scouring around the Internet for
resources, you know, to read on the subject,
especially from a kind of Western
perspective or context.
I think your paper, The Zagata in America,
was pretty much about the only thing that
I kind of came across that I felt
was substantial
enough to give me a starting point, from
which to actually consider some of the issues,
in front of me. So thank you for
that. Oh, you're welcome. I just wanted you
to know actually since this is the first
opportunity you've had to to speak that that
was a big, you know, it was a
it was a big thing for me at
the time. You know, just the fact that
something which was actually well typeset
just appeared in the screen in front of
me. Well, thank thank God for the the,
organization that did that. I have no idea
how to typeset
any of my papers. So, yeah, it's it
was nicely done by
the the institute at the, University of,
of, Indiana. Yes.
Mhmm. Okay. Alright. So I wanted to actually
maybe use the paper as a starting point,
you know, for the discussion. And actually for
anybody who's watching, hopefully, they too can, you
know, revisit that paper. I think if they
say it's about the America, Ingrid Monson, they
will they'll find it.
You mentioned a number of different things in
the paper in terms of things that you
saw were perhaps, you know,
maybe principles that needed to be revisited as
far as practice as about practice in America
was at the time, you know, 7, 8
years ago when you wrote when you wrote
it. I wanted to start off by asking
whether you think that much has changed,
in the in the attitudes,
or practice and spending of Saqqad since the
time that you wrote the paper in a
way that perhaps aligns with some of the
things that you were trying to put forward?
Yeah.
So,
one of my main concerns in my paper
was to look at this,
this issue of localization and local needs
and how to
reconcile that with the,
urgent needs
that are outside of the local community, but
also personal
or familial responsibilities.
The reality is that
so many Muslims are,
you know, feel,
pulled
by,
clearly,
needs of so many around them.
And,
I think the easiest thing is, of course,
if you have a personal relationship
with someone,
to know what they need. But very often,
that that person
will be, say, a relative, a cousin, aunt,
uncle, someone,
in another country. Mhmm. And of course, they
do have because of their relationship, we should
care for those people,
but sometimes
that comes at the expense
of forming relationships with the people,
who actually inhabit the physical the same physical
space.
Some
times, you know, in in some ways that
could be exacerbated
by,
technology and social media so that it can
be possible to live in a place absolutely
no
none of your neighbors whatsoever
and,
you know, spend all your time maybe,
Snapchatting or FaceTiming, Skyping with, say, relatives
in other places.
At the same time, I think,
Muslim communities have become more aware of the
the need and responsibility
to really pay attention to the people around
us, to our neighbors, Muslim
and and people of other faiths,
to really look to our left and right
and see what's around us. So I I
I do think that there's more awareness of
that, that we can't just kind of mindlessly
inhabit a space,
and and not understand what's going around us
and and to overlook,
the suffering that's around us.
What is supporting that increased awareness in your
view?
Well, I I think in in some ways,
it's,
it's the necessity to be able to represent
ourselves better.
You know, in an age of Islamophobia,
when Muslims
are stereotyped, when there's so much,
actually, fake news and propaganda directed against Muslims.
We realize that if people don't know us,
then,
you know, there's a huge vacuum of knowledge,
filled, and and the problem is that once
when someone
has a has a stereotype or preconception, it
is so difficult to dislodge.
I mean, it's it's very different than just
meeting someone who has who has no preconceptions.
So,
as a matter of self preservation,
we do need to engage with people. We
need to represent ourselves. We need to display
ourselves. We need to engage with others
and to build that,
trust and confidence.
So that's at the most basic level
of self preservation and we've seen what happens
when when
these things get out of control, you know,
whether it's the Muslim ban in America or,
you know, all across Europe and other places,
these these rising,
Islamophobic
tides.
I I, you know, I I would hope
that in addition to that,
there is not just a concern with with
self and self preservation, but really the ethical
imperative
to,
to to notice, to care, to,
care for our neighbor. This is I mean,
the prophet Muhammad,
he,
you know, he emphasized again and again and
again the responsibility
of knowing our neighbor, caring for our neighbor,
attending to their needs.
So,
so I think these two things layered on
top of each other
have people,
understanding
how important it is. Mhmm.
Okay. There there is a number of, of
different questions. I I just wanted to just
stay with the,
the idea of kind of concern,
if you like, within the Muslim community. And
one of the things that you mentioned in
the paper, this idea of, you know, economic
and social segregation along ethnic lines, typically, within
the Muslim community in America.
Is that something that is that particularly something
that you think has changed? So when you
say that there's more awareness,
is that awareness,
you know, to to the extent that you
feel that those divides
are are being crossed? Or do you feel
it's as it was or perhaps even getting
worse?
Yeah. I mean, one of the realities of
of America in particular is that,
it has been so racially
segregated,
and and that's deliberate. I mean, that is
to keep,
in particular
black Americans
out of sight, out of
mind,
and and to keep them in areas where,
especially because in the United States,
public education is supported by local taxation, which
means that if people are in an area
where where they're all gathered and they all
have lower income,
their schools will be much,
you know, much less funded than than wealthy
people in in a in a suburb.
And so there's a there's a lot of
very deliberate political,
manipulation here.
And for Muslim communities, that's long been a
problem because we have, for example,
immigrant Muslims in particular who who come in,
say professionals,
who doctors and others,
and they,
you know, they accumulate wealth, they become successful,
and then they decide to build a, you
know, very nice Islamic center with all sorts
of facilities, a gym, and a lecture hall
and everything
out in the in the suburb.
And,
and so now, because of the distances, especially
in America, they may be, you know, they
may never ever, ever encounter,
say, an African American community in the inner
city.
And and so even when they would be
thinking about, well, where do we distribute
ours as a cat? And even if they
think distribute it locally,
to to them, their locales are sub subdivision,
and they see other wealthy people and wealthy
institutions, so they say, well, we we should
meet the most urgent needs,
you know, people who are suffering in other
countries, etcetera. Mhmm.
Not even
recognizing
that, you know, 10 miles away, 12 miles
away, there's a community
that doesn't even have,
you know, the ability to pay its its
monthly rent for its mosque or something like
this.
So, so that's one of the main things
that I wanted to address.
There has been I would say that overall,
perhaps, there's more awareness of that.
One of the things I recommended is a
kind of
a brotherhood arrangement where you would have one
community,
pairing with another and and committing to each
other's welfare. And it's not just about about
the
distribution of wealth one way because the the
wealthy communities are also in need
of of the knowledge, of the skills, of
the resources, of the perspective, of the resilience
of the African American communities. I mean, speaking
as a as a white Canadian who moved
to to, the United States, it's the African
American community who really taught me how to
live Islam in America.
You know, I mean no one else showed
me what to to live with dignity
and and,
honesty and integrity,
And there's so many examples of
just, you know,
amazing,
role models and programs,
that they've contributed to shape American Islam. So
it is a it is really a brotherhood.
So I think there is some recognition.
I would say
that, you know, it's it's still not pervasive.
The the the context makes it very difficult.
It it
reality,
and and Muslims are not immune from that.
And then the other thing that has changed
over the last,
well, particular 5 years or so, 6, 7
years,
are are
the the degree of suffering in much of
the traditional Muslim world. I mean, the
the the enormous,
huge
refugee crises,
so that the intensity of the suffering, you
know, Syria,
Myanmar,
Yemen, etcetera,
is really calling us
to do more there as well.
So so there's,
you know, the dilemma is still there. Mhmm.
I think
people may be more aware of,
that it is a dilemma, and that we
need to find ways
to fulfill our responsibilities the best way we
can, but it's
it's not I don't think it's any easier
Mhmm. Now than it was before. Sure. Sure.
One of the, based on what you've just
said, and one of the things that kept
occurring to me as I was going through,
you know, the paper was,
the
the implications
of thinking about zakat communally as a as
a tax or a wealth tax as you
described it, and as it is,
versus thinking about it as charity, a personal
charity.
The National Zakat Foundation, one of the one
of the things we've been thinking about, I
suppose trying to speak to people more about
the fact is that, you know, zakat as
a personal act of obligatory charity, which is
kind of an oxymoron, if you like, versus
the idea of being a collective resource in
a public matter. And it seemed to me,
especially on that point to do with, for
example, the segregated communities and often times within
very very short distances of each other,
That possibly the only way to actually
cross be able to really cross that divide
is that if everybody
in a within a reasonable kind of space
or something that represents at least in a
broad terms of community. Or in America, maybe
on a state by state kind of basis,
would pay into would pay into a kind
of a a a centralized part
whose whose mandate it was to then make
holistic kind of decisions, you know, on on
a collective basis, just like local taxation, kind
of, would work. And in that way,
whilst everybody might be sacrificing a degree of
their personal autonomy,
we would have more is probably as long
as there was transparency and maybe some representative,
kind of, nature in terms of this institution
would have the chances of actually crossing these
divides and and having some balance in in,
in taking care of these needs. It may
be may be may be heightened. I'm just
wondering what your kind of reflections are of
that or indeed if you've seen such efforts
emerge. Mhmm.
Well, yeah. I mean, this is an age
old political question, which is the most efficient
way of
of, taxation
Mhmm. Centralization
or or grassroots, and we know we know
that there are, you know, in every place,
there are different political views on that. I
mean, the the the thing is
that centralization has a great benefit,
say, within a certain area because
then you aren't relying on everyone being kind
of woke or aware, you know, and these
people are constantly
changing in positions of leadership. If it's if
it's such a personalized,
decision,
then then you can keep failing
again and again. I don't know. Right. Exactly.
On the other hand,
centralization
only works if people trust each other Yeah.
Yeah. And if the decision making body
truly truly reflects the community. Yeah. You know,
if if the if the if the
decision making body is not,
doesn't reflect the diversity of the community,
is not responsive
to the diversity of the community,
and does not constantly examine and reform itself
and make itself open to
some major,
say, metro what we call metropolitan areas where
you have a large city with a number
of suburbs
that have created,
organization like the council
Greater Chicago, which represents, I don't know, now
maybe a 100 different organizations.
Washington, DC has the same thing. Houston, other
other big cities,
and so all of the
the Islamic institutions,
mosque schools, social service,
all have a kind of all join this.
But, some of them are working well. Others
are plagued by, unfortunately,
just in terms of their leadership,
a lack of transparency,
lack of responsiveness,
you know, are are are are not truly
serving Mhmm. The whole community. Yeah. So
so it's it's the same,
you know, we have to be aware that
it's not just an issue
of people being good Muslims or or, you
know, their piety or righteousness or fear of
God. It's not it. It's it's about these
age old questions
Good governance, Christopher. About good governance. Yeah. Yeah.
That's fine. Understood.
I was just wondering whether these thought though
like, do you think that people think about
about making adequate distinction though between zagat and
voluntary charity, or what we've come to call,
so that all the other zagat moves zagat,
in in reality, some more overarching term. In
a sense of, do you think that,
you know,
despite the fact that, for example, there may
be some of those kinds of issues, that
actually,
having a more centralized approach to this bare
minimum Mhmm. Whilst giving people complete autonomy than
with everything else.
And in our experience, I think it's fair
to say just even just without even looking
at data, but just from the maths of
it,
that, you know, if the card only represents
2 and a half percent of your sort
of disposable work in one day, the chances
that you could reasonably and easily easily pay
just as much, if not more, involuntary charity
in a year, and therefore, as a collective,
you'd have some, you know, some idea of
balance still can support this,
maybe,
a greater drive towards,
you know,
a more kind of centralized approach to zakat.
Yeah. I agree with you. I would say
that most Muslims
still do not understand
well, they well, they know that zakat is
obligatory, they still think of it as charity,
as as their personal contribution.
Not that it's an obligatory
purification of wealth without which
our wealth would be impure. Mhmm. And that
it it it it was,
I mean, it was founded on a centralizing
principle. In fact, we know that the the
first, I mean, the first,
you know, Sayna Abu Bakr, he actually
know, fought to ensure that zakat because the
the, you know, the people said, well, we'll
just distribute it in our own area. He
said, no. This is part of of being
part of this community. Mhmm. So it's not
just about taking we know you'll take care
of your own. Right? Everyone takes care of
their own people.
This isn't the question. This
is about justice across the whole community.
And so,
that's why I think we have to change
language. I think we should call it a
wealth tax and say that, you know, in
addition to wealth tax, yes, there's charity,
there's kafara,
you know, expiation for sins, there's there's all
sorts I mean, we have, we should be
giving a lot more than our obligatory
zigat. It is
limited. And and I do think that it
would help. Like, I think about
I think about, for example, where I live.
I live now in Canada,
and there's this fantastic
social service organization, and it really is,
I I mean, they have excellent staff and
groundbreaking programs, really innovative,
meet the community,
And all they want is for the there's
3 main mosques in the city.
They what they would like is rather than
always,
you know, coming and asking Mhmm. Is to
say, can can you just give us a
certain, you know, percentage
of the,
of the zakat that you collect so then
we
we have our,
you know, our sir services funded? And it's
it's really
would be in the interest of these mosques
and Islamic centers because the imams don't have
the
they are not qualified to deal with with
some of these very severe social problems, mental
health issues,
like really Christ families in crisis,
even even preventing,
you know,
delinquent behavior that sometimes goes into radicalization.
And these mosques to commit to that amount.
And and that's the problem. Then you waste,
you know, this manpower. You miss these opportunities.
So I really do think that,
that
that we've got to get beyond this. You
know, it's,
unfortunately, human beings, we all like we all
like to have our own children.
You know, we all like to,
to think that we just,
to have some control. Mhmm.
But this is,
this is about service to the community,
not about
holding on to
to control. And so we need to find
a better way.
Actually, we've had it reminds me of this
mantra recently of zakat's not about what you
want, but what we need.
Mhmm. Yeah. And I think the idea of
people suspending
the kind of that that autonomy for this
small thing Mhmm. Just said just said to
be really important. And I think it kind
of,
the the issue that you also mentioned in
the paper about the fact that in some
areas,
they kind of the the spending of the
gut funds on what might, in the grand
scheme of things, be seem to be quite,
quite, you know, sort of,
frankly, luxury items. Mhmm. You know, they talk
about typically, you know,
halyat, you know, dasimiat kind of thing. And
it seems as though there's a bit of
a disproportion of what is being spent locally
Right. On private luxury items simply because there
isn't this view of, you know, what else
is going on. Mhmm.
One other point that you mentioned in the
paper was about this, which I think is
a very profound point. I think it's also
lost on people is the idea of,
the rep the the significance or the marginal
impact of zakat in areas where where the,
where there is inequality
Mhmm. And all the relative poverty, if you
like, is is significant
versus going to areas where,
I think it does
some sociologist, somebody mentioned the idea of in
the stone age, you know, people may have
been at a certain level, but there isn't
this kind of,
but since they were in an environment where
this was a norm,
the impact of their overall situation on all
of them, in terms of how they viewed
each other and it's kind of from social
relations kind of perspective wasn't significant.
And so the marginal impact of the government
in that kind of circumstance versus,
in a circumstance where,
where even at the absolute level of poverty
might be, you know, worse.
Mhmm. But the it it's it's, you know,
unfortunately become more it's more widespread, if you
like. So the people don't necessarily the impact
of seeing that there are rich people around
Yeah. You know, isn't quite isn't quite the
same. And I just wanted to ask in
one of the most significant problems with not
dealing with this issue
of relative poverty is, number 1,
I think there's 2 aspects I wanted to
ask about. Number 1 is the actual the
impact on the actual faith on the Islam
of the individuals who are in poverty. Mhmm.
And number 2,
the the perception of Muslims as a community
from the outside. You referred to it slightly
earlier, and I wanted to maybe just develop
that point. So I was wondering if you
could address these two issues in terms whether
you think these are real,
consequences.
Mhmm. You know, that the faith of the
poor is actually affect is affected somehow.
Sure. By by the fact that some things
are not being taken care of within effectively
the reputation or the perception of the community
as a whole from the outside.
Sure. Yeah. I mean, the issue of the
issue isn't only about
meeting basic needs.
The issue is about the gap
between rich and poor.
Now in terms of,
say, Islamic
Economics
and and law, everything touching on
wealth creation and distribution,
there are a lot of things that shouldn't
allow, like, a vast accumulation
of wealth
in some and the impoverishment of others. This
is the the prohibition of reba, for example.
You know, fair wages,
basic needs being provided by the state, etcetera,
etcetera.
The reality is that there are some things,
some of those things we can control, some
of those things we aren't we can't control.
Yes. We should be advocating for political policies
that do not allow for the, you know,
you know, unjust enrichment
of the 1%
and and everyone else, you know, not even
having their basic needs. So you look at
something like in America with where even basic
health care isn't covered Mhmm. Which means that
poor people can never can never get a
break, can never accumulate wealth. Any wealth they
have, money they have is going into health
care. I mean, while other people are just
just ridiculously
rich.
So that that's political activity, but in terms
of
us, what does it mean then we that
we do have some people who have accumulated
vast amounts of wealth, others who are very
poor, and there's this huge gap.
Closing that gap is one of the points
of of local zakat distribution.
The prophet Muhammad
said
to take take the wealth from the rich
and return it to
their poor, their community. So it's a return
of wealth, meaning that
wealth comes from people. Right?
It comes from the community. It's returned to
the community. And so the goal is to
is to narrow that gap Because the existence
of that gap
what does that show? The existence of that
gap
in and of itself,
seems unfair. Why are some people,
scrambling for just just
basic needs,
and others are, you know, spending money on,
you know,
tens of 1,000,000, 100 of 1,000,000 on, you
know, boats,
cars,
you know, art, whatever whatever it is.
So there's that feeling and people might say,
well, this is lawfully gained. Well, not always.
Often it's not lawfully gained. If we look
at laws pertaining to interest
and prohibition,
all sorts of I mean, probably most Islamic
financial laws are being violated
by most of us, you know, and especially
those who have a lot of wealth. So,
no, it's not all awfully being gained. 1.
But the second thing is that
apart from that, even
say it say about a person if they're
content
to,
enjoy the
not o not only teseniet.
There's another level after that.
Luxury.
Maybe extreme luxury.
Let's
add like even things that wouldn't have been
conceivable
to people in, you know, the 7th century.
When he gets into his love for you.
Oh, Yes, really. Yeah, just wasting. You know,
just just spending money for for the point
for the sake of it or spending money
on something because it is expensive, because it
is conspicuous consumption.
So what does it say about someone's
someone's faith,
if they are if their heart is satisfied
with that gap,
if they're content, if they don't feel
moved
by compassion
to to help that person.
And and then, you know, the people say,
well, what is their Islam about? You know?
It's it really
one community?
Aren't we supposed to feel each other's pain?
And,
you know, from the outside, I'm less concerned
about outside perspectives, but certainly people say, well,
you know, they're not even taking care of
their own. They talk about Islam as a
religion of brotherhood and compassion.
Are they
are we really saying that?
In some parts of the world,
and even in this in United Kingdom, you
know, there is there's evidence of the fact
that where Muslims are left poor and desperate,
their vulnerability as far as their faith is
concerned
is particularly high.
And I'm just I don't know if that's
a I don't know if that's a real
phenomenon in the sense that, obviously, you pointed
to the fact that, you know, many of
the poor communities, they have a sense. I
mean, they still they still may be very
motivated in fact, it's united amongst themselves to
the extent that maybe the faith impact, the
negative faith impact on the poor themselves or
their sense of belonging to the community isn't
maybe necessarily as empowered. Just wondering what isn't
isn't that a real phenomenon? Because the, you
know, the, there there are there are even
narrations of the prophet, peace be upon him,
indicating that, you know, poverty is like almost
the shortest road to deny God. Mhmm. And
he sought refuge from Kufra and Fakhr together.
And I'm just wondering if you think that's
a real thing, something that is registering people.
Yeah. I mean, I I don't know the
research on this, but certainly, they're they're
clearly, we can see 2 things. 1, people
need to have their
must
find a way to meet their needs Yeah.
And their children's needs. Yeah.
You know, necessity dictates exception.
Example.
Wild boar, you can eat it as you
well, let's think it's an extreme example. But
if people cannot find a way to get
out of poverty, they can't find a way
to keep their kids safe
in an in an environment that's safe,
and give them the opportunity to be able
to
to to make a living, to meet their
needs, to protect themselves from harm, from drug
dealers, from whatever it is,
start to make exceptions
because you have to. Because you have to
meet your needs.
And when when making exceptions becomes the norm,
when you have to actually change your whole
way of life,
because of that, you've just you've just lost.
You know, you're over time, you will lose
your attachment
to the faith. It's because it won't it
doesn't work. It's not realistic. It's not it's
not doing what it says it does. And
then the other thing is, of course, hypocrisy.
I mean, it just,
you hear people saying,
this is what our religion's about, and you
don't see it. And that's going to,
of course, try your faith. I mean, the
prophet Muhammad
he his,
you know, his
status in Mecca,
was based
on his character
at the beginning. Al Amin, the trustworthy person.
Character is so important
that people are showing
that they're living their values.
That creates a situation of trust
through which then you can have a conversation.
You can hear, you can listen to someone.
If he hadn't been an Amin,
then, you know, why would people even trust
him enough to start to listen?
And so if we are,
you know, if we're not living up to
our values,
it creates
this,
this barrier Mhmm. Between us and and them.
And and if we keep talking about religion
but aren't living it, then then
it's,
you know, it people are are reasonable.
They say there's there's something off here.
Okay. So that's been a very, useful discussion
on,
the importance of
poverty alleviation.
It's it's kind of maybe deep deeper significance,
and the idea of us first, all of
us, especially in an increasingly
technological and kinda atomized sort of existence of
and really looking beyond and and being awake
and alive to, the real issues around us.
I wanted to move on to,
the 4th category as I've got distribution.
You know, winning hearts or reconciling hearts.
So I'm wondering if you could give us
maybe, first of all, your own understanding in
a theoretical sense of what this category represents.
And then maybe in practical terms, especially from
an American kind of perspective or Western perspective,
what you think might be some of the
useful things that we can be doing
that have this kind of reconciling or heart
winning,
kind of
effect outside of,
necessarily, the specifics of, you know, of poverty
alleviation that that we've discussed.
Yeah. This is an interesting category,
much debated,
and,
quite divergent opinions on it. Of course, Sayid
N'amr ibn al Khotab,
and I'll be pleased with him, Felt that
in his
time, it was a,
a a defunct category,
because he considered
it to be,
was necessary for this for the strength of
the Muslim community, but he felt at that
point they were strong enough. They didn't need
it. But then other scholars later
said said it was still relevant in their
time, so you really have to look at
it. You know, I I think the the
our understanding of the original
application is that it is for those,
first, who are who are new to Islam
or who are having a difficult time staying
Muslims
because
either
of economic Mhmm. Or social Mhmm. Or political
marginalization.
So being a Muslim,
it's very difficult for them to be a
Muslim and stay a Muslim without more support.
Mhmm. So if we think today about the
challenges of being a Muslim, we see that
that a lot of Muslims find it difficult.
That
many are kind of going underground
trying to not be visibly Muslim. They feel
they feel nervous. They feel targeted.
For many, they
they don't
they don't have social supports,
and every human being needs
needs social support.
You know? They're they're just isolated. They're lonely.
Or
they might not have the knowledge that they
need
to answer the very,
persistent,
aggressive attacks on Islam.
So they're they're starting to question their faith
because they don't know how to answer questions.
Mhmm.
So I would say that,
that there's
there's a lot, you know, we could identify
in that general area
a lot of needs that we need to
supply.
Certainly,
to create
it's not just about about information,
but structures
Mhmm. Of of support,
support,
community,
relationships.
And,
and that can also mean, you know, really
strengthening some of our broader relationships with our
with our non Muslim neighbors.
Not that it would primarily go to,
you know, zakat is is for for the
Muslim community, but for the Muslim community to
be able to strengthen our relationships
with our non,
Muslim neighbors through, you know, different partnerships.
So I think all of these things
are going to
can help serve the function of of
giving people,
those,
you know, more
tranquil hearts. Mhmm. Because I think,
what we see now is a lot of
anxiety Mhmm. And lack of tranquility,
and that's making people vulnerable to both things
like,
you know, mental illnesses,
anxiety,
and, but also really of just feeling so
overwhelmed that they
it's too hard to be a Muslim now.
Mhmm. I think that there are a lot
of people who feel it's just too hard
because,
of course, there are some superheroes
who they,
you know, no matter what hits them, they
love the attack. They're very,
you
know, aggressive and are able to but that's
not the majority of people. The majority of
people
want to just live their life. They they
don't like being in a conflict situation,
situation, and of course, a certain percent really
find that
unbearable.
So we we need to find ways
to be able to support and and strengthen
people's sense of confidence
Mhmm. And,
security
Mhmm.
Safety.
Mhmm. Okay. And and and in terms of,
if you like
so there's the idea of bringing,
if you like, almost a sort of a
piece of stability to the to the hearts
of, you know,
the individuals which you've which you've talked about.
In terms of what's happening between, if you
like, parts or sets of hearts, meaning in
terms of animosity, bigotry, prejudice,
these kind of and dealing with that kind
of thing. Is there space, do you think,
to deal with that is a need and
a necessity to deal with with that kind
of,
that leaf, if you like, what we bring
together.
Yeah. So this is about about binding people
together.
And I think first and foremost, we have
to make sure that we have
we have actual communities. Communities are places where
people have relationships, where they know each other.
They know each other's needs. They care about
each other.
They so we need the supports, and
and that needs to happen. But of course,
we are we are a community within other
communities. So this is why, as I say,
you know, to,
to have programs that connect us
with our neighbours because,
honestly,
it's not about
it's not about information campaigns.
Right? About getting public relations firms or something
like that. Because
studies on,
echo chambers have shown that
that more information and accurate information cannot penetrate
an echo chamber. Mhmm. And accurate information
cannot penetrate an echo chamber.
Because an echo chamber is created by
by
teaching people that they can't trust the other.
And so even if you give them,
know, accurate information about Islam and Muslims in
the Quran, the prophet Muhammad, it
it it it does not penetrate that echo
chamber.
Echo chambers can only be penetrated
by,
by,
over time, people establishing a relationship of trust.
Mhmm.
Which, by the way, is why this issue
of,
taqiyah or dissimulation
is something that is really
widely
disseminated
by the Islamophobia
network. Mhmm. That you can't trust Muslims. Whatever
they say is
is not true.
So but trust trust in this context, trust
can only be built
by presence,
by doing things together,
by
doing activities together,
by,
spending time, you know, not just talking, but
really engaging,
with the person
and maybe service together.
So so that should certainly be part of
it. It means that Muslim communities are partnering
with others
to
to do service, general and public service,
help,
so it's not just about ideas.
It's about relationships.
Mhmm. People have to
feel feel a sense of attachment to each
other. Mhmm.
And that's a very powerful point, and I
think that the,
it's almost as if in a way
in the way I've come to sort of
look see that category, you know, or an
aspect of it is to is exactly that,
which is almost to kind of,
you know, provide the minimum social capital that
is required for the possibility
of somebody actually seeing and appreciating Islam for
what it is. Mhmm. So at least as
a the kind of, if you like, that
clear conveying
even has a chance. Mhmm. Like like like
you mentioned.
It's probably the it's definitely the case in
United Kingdom and in my own probably almost
certainly the case in America as well that
where,
where this,
view or where this distrust exists,
just spatially, geographically,
is probably highest in communities where there are
at least Muslims.
And where the actual so the where the
potential for achieving the conflict that you're talking
about, just maybe just practically lower. Mhmm. And
of course, then sources of information about Islam
as soon as it's coming from the media
and or whatever else. And and so they
put their own it's a it's a it's
a it's a it's a it's not an
echo chamber. It was echo fortress. Right? This
is very hard to get into.
I mean,
given that in in an age of sort
of, you know, the technology, social media, and
just the prevalence of the media in general,
do you think that there is a case
in terms of dealing with,
or attempting to try to, you know,
challenge the prejudice that exist in those kind
of communities,
in different routes. Through different routes perhaps that
have again may have the steadief effect. But
may just mean to be as practical to
do in the first instance through the kind
of maybe more a communal or social kind
of,
and so physical kind of measures that you're
talking about.
Yeah. I mean, there's there's creative,
people who can who are thinking about these
things. I mean, it's interesting because
one,
you know, as we know, we don't wanna
rely on
famous people.
But one of the things that we've seen
is that
people love their sport. Mhmm.
So you have,
you know, who who are those people who
have
been able to
Transcend, if you want. Yes.
And and where people feel really attached. Mhmm.
Right?
People feel so attached to their sports teams,
to their athletes. So this is why someone
like like, you know, Mohammed Ali, may Allah
have mercy on him, was was was really
transcended those things and so powerful.
The love that people had for him for
what he was able to do, even if
they didn't know any other Muslim.
I believe you have a very famous athlete
right now who people are
are loving.
Right. And and people are, you know, people
probably either didn't know any Muslim and maybe
even hated Muslims still are loving this loving
him because they're attached to the sports team.
So it is it is true that people
in the,
you know, in those positions have have an
added responsibility
because just that,
you know, they can overcome it, but we
can't that's not something that that the rest
of us really can plan for. No.
No. You know, other than encourage our children
to be the best main on quotes have
been a young person to her kids. Right.
So so we wanna, I mean, it should
but it shows the value, right? It shows
why parents and community shouldn't only value
certain kinds of
you know, say, well, what are you doing
wasting your time playing this game? When that
person might end up having a more transformative
effect than anyone.
So so we can't really plan for it,
but we should certainly open the way for
allowing
Muslims to
really, you know, try to achieve,
you know, whatever God given capacities they have
to to be the best at what they
can. And and we can help that, you
know, youth programs, sports programs,
those kind of things.
But there may be other ways too.
But I do I I I really believe
I have a lot of faith in ordinary
Muslims and that ordinary Muslims,
with some with some support,
can
can make the effort. People want to make
the effort. I mean, I know of people
I know of so many Muslims who are,
like, the only Muslim in some,
you know,
part of the expression redneck southern US state.
And they're so brave, you know. It's just
still like she's she's a mom, she's a
housewife, and she's just like going out, and
I'm going to go to my kid's school
and give a presentation. And
that kind of courage. I love that kind
of courage. I really believe that
what we need to do
is is to help,
give ordinary Muslims the confidence
and and some skills to do that because
it's not gonna come.
It's not the scholars who are gonna do
it, honestly.
You know, these international conferences, they're they're not
the ones
who are going to
make those connections.
I I I really want ordinary Muslims to
to say what do what do they need?
Mhmm.
What do they need to be more courageous,
to be more confident,
to go and and be that even if
they're the only Muslim in the town,
to to be a visible Muslim
and and able to,
you know, to have those difficult conversations.
So back back the, back the winners famous
or otherwise, basically.
Mhmm. Okay. And I wanted to move on
to,
obviously, there's the other category which maybe points
more to this kind of communal,
sort
of, affairs, which is vis a vis a
la, which again is another contentious one.
And, you know, there's there's there's there's very
restrictive and narrow and very wide interpretations
of it. But it seems to be the
case that there is a lot of support
for the idea of,
supporting scholars,
and scholarship
within this kind of especially from the perspective
of the the kind of, if you like,
the overarching,
protection
that it provides to where the community is
going as far as it's under it's understanding
of Islam is is concerned.
And especially in an environment which is increasingly,
I'm interested in the UK,
increasingly,
you know, atheistic.
Right? So just just the idea of,
religion,
institutionalized religion, God, etcetera, you know, all of
that is, you know,
plummeting fast really in terms of in the
in the public
in the public sphere. I was wondering whether
you,
had any ideas, thoughts,
about a, whether you think there is enough
investment in scholarship and the kind of scholarship
that we need, to be scholarship that we
need, to be to be relevant and inspiring
to,
especially our young people.
And
if there are any kind of particular
just particular initiatives or or or just ideas
that you have on that that you think
could be useful for us to for us
to think about.
So
yeah. When it when it comes to scholarship,
I would say that
that
our problem is we have a very limited
idea of scholarship. Mhmm. We have a certain
idea of what a scholar
looks like, does Mhmm.
And thinks that you know, we think that
only more knowledge
is is gonna be the solution
To the point where sometimes it seems like
every graduate of a seminary ends up founding
their own institute or something like this,
it's problematic to me.
And,
in fact,
we have to be very careful here.
One of the things that is really interesting,
people wonder, you know, what happened. We had
great Islamic civilization
and
what happened. In fact, there's a lot of
studies that show
in the late, like, let's say, 16th, 17th,
18th century, what happened was that, unfortunately,
scholarship
moved from, in in some places,
from
meritocracy
to,
family
guilt kind of thing. And that and that
more and more
money started being put more and more as
a cat,
in fact,
and,
endowments were funded to support scholarship,
while
the needs of the poor were being
increasingly denied.
You know, why did socialism or communism
or, you know, secular revolution start to become
attractive?
Because people started to see scholar scholarship and
scholars as self serving. Mhmm. And I I
know that's not a very,
it's not something people talk about very much
and probably not very popular among many of
my scholar colleagues,
but it is a risk, and we have
to learn from history. Because,
of course,
you know, we see these as all good
things,
but it has to be in balance.
What I wanna say is that in some
places, we may be overfunding
scholars, but we may be underfunding
other forms of scholars. Mhmm. Talking about knowledge,
including applied knowledge. For example,
yes. There are those who are simply
responding to attacks on religion, the atheists,
etcetera.
There are certain kinds of people who can
do that. And very often, they're not the
ones we end up funding. They're the ones
who are just really smart and they go
to university. They go into philosophy program in
religious studies, and they come out.
We need to be strategic
about what we need in terms of our
scholarship.
For example, we we we must have
we should have many, many more female scholars.
And females,
we're not there are some
female scholars, but they can't find any positions.
You know, Allah says,
Together,
we,
right, enjoying the good, forbid the evil, establish
prayer and zakat,
and obey Allah and his messenger. It is
they upon whom Allah will show mercy his
mercy. So we want mercy.
Our community, we wanna do the right. We
wanna do establishing prayer right. We wanna
forbid
wrong and and do right. It is a
partnership
of men and women.
But how many I don't know about your
country. How many positions are there in mosques
and Islamic centers
for,
female scholars and teachers
or chaplains in the in Islamic institutions themselves?
There's no reason why there shouldn't be. And
because of that, we have a lot of
problems. Mhmm. We have a lot of, you
know,
really problematic things happening.
And just just just cluelessness
about the needs of the community.
So we do need scholars,
but,
we need diverse type of scholarship,
and we need to have research about what
does the community need.
It's also those
spiritual care professionals
because much of it, you know, on the
one hand, there's the apologetics.
There's the atheism.
But I I personally think
I personally think that most people
are not attached to their religion
in primarily intellectually.
I think it's primarily,
socially,
emotionally,
spiritually.
And so it's the spiritual care providers. It's
the the community
leadership, it's pastoral care,
and those are skills. You know, people go
to school for them. Those are skills and
knowledge, And so those programs that
that are taking,
those who are you know, who care about
this dean, who care about this religion, but
are giving them those contextual skills, those
practical skills.
Like I'm spending the a few weeks right
now at Cambridge Muslim College. Michelle Lot's doing
a fantastic job in this area,
bringing both men and women
and and trying to help them see,
you know, be more aware of what what
their needs are and how to look for
needs and how to respond and how to
work together. I think this is the kind
of thing that's really very much needed.
Okay. Excellent. And,
finally or maybe just a couple of last,
you know, questions. I think I wanted to
ask you,
about your views on,
how do we find balance in all of
this then? You know, we've talked about a
number of different things,
And there's a car potential of America, for
example. Let's keep it to the American context
for now. You know,
it must be in the 100 of 1,000,000
of dollars, if not more than a $1,000,000,000
potentially a year. I mean, so if you
compare it to the UK, which is relatively,
you know, a poor Muslim community, I think,
on average, and even the American one.
Regardless of what the current sort of situation
is, based on everything you know and understand
and everything you spoke about in terms of
international or local and what have you,
what what would you say is a kind
of what would you what would you regard
as a fair balance
from a top down perspective,
of the amount of the guard that's in
order is paid that should stay in America,
you know, versus the amount that goes abroad.
So I'm asking, do you kind of be
in this, you know, you do have the
authority to have that policy policy making. What
what would you what would you recommend or
what would you like to see as as
something that you think is is is actually
reasonable?
Yeah.
I'm I mean, that it would have to
be really based on there should be a
study,
obviously. There should be some kind of comprehensive
study. Mhmm. And and then looking at the
results.
We can't make these kind of decisions without,
without information. Mhmm. So I think that shows
a a gap. Mhmm. Right? That's a that's
a a clear need.
And
and then it it a study both of
what money is coming in, how people are
spending it,
where people feel their needs are not being
met.
And then and then it's
it's always adjusting. I I'm I'm not so
much a believer
in balance as prioritizing
and reprioritizing.
I think that comes from being,
you know, a mom and,
you know, just you have so many things
and, like, every day you kind of got
your your your plans. Okay. What we're gonna
do, and then something happens, like, okay. Adjust,
readjust, reprioritize.
We have to get in that habit,
of constantly
paying attention, monitoring, and readjusting
to the situation.
The situation now in many ways is so
different from 10 years ago. Mhmm. And, you
know, when I I wrote that paper,
in terms of the the Islamophobia,
in terms of the
the the legal challenges,
you know, the threats to the American Muslim
community
really with,
the right wing, the alt right, the the
the rise of the all alt right neo
Nazism, the kind of threats those pose to
black Americans
and and people of color as well as
racialized people, which most most Muslims are.
You know, we weren't thinking we were
I would say that
probably, you know, most of my black American
friends are saying right now, well, we told
you so all along. But I would say
a lot for the rest of the Muslim
American community thought, oh, we were,
you know, we weren't that bad. We felt
more secure.
So, so in terms of basic survival,
encountering
that, and making relationships, I think it's clear
that there needs to be
a lot of attention
on on internally
on the country.
And,
you know, keep paying charity. Charity is
very strategically,
constantly evaluating, reevaluating our needs,
in in in regular consultation with all the
diversity of the community.
And then we should be paying a lot
of ours at CAT or a lot of
our charity,
to the needs of of people elsewhere. And
that is that is out of compassion, out
of sincerity,
out of the belief that Allah utters up
the provider, that we don't lose anything. And
we can do that by
by living a much simpler lifestyle. I mean,
you know,
there's a lot of things we don't need,
and we know that we're destroying the environment
with all the things we're buying every you
know, anyway. So I think if we we
pay a little bit of attention to our
consumption,
we can direct a lot of our zakat
internally
and still have lots left,
for,
for charity to give,
to the very, very needy and worthy people
who are suffering in other places.
And, mister Ahmed,
and just to finish then, could you if
this
does get taken up and perhaps if you
have more voices kind of, who are advocating
for localization of Zakat and for it to
be spent in a strategic manner, in a
in a balanced manner, you know, considering the
needs of the poor, considering the needs of
scholarship, or winning hearts, etcetera, and all the
things that we've discussed. Could you perhaps paint
a picture of,
you know, what you think could be
possible then? What could, for example, the future
of Islam in America or
in any kind of Muslim minority or, you
know, Western European context look like,
if more and more people were to get
behind this idea of, you know, localization and
kind of a holistic or balance spend across
the various concerns that Alvar can highlight?
Well,
the the the hope is that we can
arrive at a position of
of
a certain measure of stability.
So that, of course, in life,
disasters happen.
There are always people who have extraordinary
needs,
but that we're not in a constant crisis
mode. Right now, it feels like we're in
a constant crisis mode. People are exhausted. They're
overwhelmed.
We just have not we're not at the
position where we feel
confident,
secure, and stable,
and that is a threat in in so
many so many ways. It makes us vulnerable
to losing our religion, our mental health,
family break up.
So
we we need to arrive at a position
of some some
stability
and confidence.
And,
and I think with more, you know,
only Allah knows what
the future will bring, but I I think
we could get closer to it than we
are now. Mhmm.
Actually, it reminds me of the,
verse in the Quran where Allah talks about
the promise of,
tankeen
Mhmm.
In in Surat Anur.
So there's, like, 3 promises there to those
who believe in de Righteous deeds. 1 of,
having, you know, authority or influence or successorship.
One of them keen on stability.
And the other one about Ahmed after Hoffa.
This is kind of,
you know, sort of mental and physical kind
of sets sense of
safety and security Mhmm. After having been in
a state of fear. Right. And I always
wonder with that one. And it's interesting because
that verse is obviously then what comes immediately
afterwards is Salah Zagat again, actually. Yes.
And I just want you know, I think
sometimes, you know, Allah has promised us these
three things. We look around, and we feel
honest to ourselves. We don't have any of
them really. Mhmm. And so is it that
his promises, you know, was wasn't good, or
is that, well, we haven't done our part
of the bargain. So, I pray that Allah
lord's father,
guides us to do our bit so that,
if we change ourselves, he can he will
change our our condition. I mean and I
thank you very much for your for your
insights. Yeah. And may Allah bless all of
your efforts and the rest of your stay
here in, in the United Kingdom. And may
Allah bless your really excellent work. I'm I'm
so happy to see the work that you're
doing with,
with your zakat foundation and the thought that
you're putting behind it, strategic,
thinking and research, and,
you'll you'll be the the ones who can
really help transform the situation.
Thank you very much.