Ingrid Mattson – Testimonial

Ingrid Mattson
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AI: Summary ©

The speakers discuss the importance of privacy and the negative impact of health issues on personal and professional lives. They also emphasize the need for community-focused, ethical research to address health concerns and provide support and resources to help those who are not yet ready to make decisions. The speakers emphasize the importance of learning from the experiences of those who are already in their careers and engaging in discussions with people of other religious traditions to reduce the human value of individuals. They also mention the challenges of implementing a new approach to public policy decisions and the importance of engaging with people of other religious traditions to reduce the human value of individuals.

AI: Summary ©

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			The other thing is that it's an area
		
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			that
		
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			everybody
		
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			gets involved with. Like, so I you know,
		
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			you there's all this stuff on the life
		
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			care. I mean, you there's things that people
		
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			deal with, but they don't deal with them
		
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			until they're at this juncture. And for us
		
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			to have informed ideas about what we think
		
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			about these things prior to that, that is
		
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			important.
		
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			The last thing is that even
		
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			but even
		
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			blood transfusion or donation or we have a
		
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			talk on our life care. And that's what
		
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			Muslims believe or what they think, but we
		
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			actually have no data on any of that.
		
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			And so we
		
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			a
		
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			policy, our own program development.
		
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			So those are the 3 frames that different
		
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			different models use.
		
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			But,
		
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			some of that, if you think it's pertinent
		
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			or not, but you can speak up really
		
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			extra frames. So what I've asked today was,
		
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			you know, what do you think is important
		
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			and you can talk about it. Or What's
		
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			particular? Right? Those are the questions I'll ask
		
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			you. Do we both on camera? No. No.
		
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			Are you just are you just taking my
		
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			answers? I'm just gonna take your answers and
		
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			it's basically you can It's it's as if
		
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			you're having a conversation with Asim. Yeah. It's
		
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			it's totally fine. You don't have to look
		
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			directly at the camera. Most people don't, actually.
		
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			The only thing I have, a video feed
		
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			here, and then this is gonna be the
		
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			audio feed. So if I could just have
		
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			you how are you doing your audio? It's
		
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			so interesting. So you have the regular It's
		
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			the Apple cable and we just we just
		
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			cut off
		
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			the the headphone. Right. And then clicked on
		
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			a clip port. And then so it's just
		
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			recording to the audio feed in the Does
		
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			that work well? Yeah. It works really well.
		
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			Really? Mhmm.
		
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			It's much better than, you know, this because
		
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			it's so far. You're gonna catch everything, whereas
		
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			this one's more localized.
		
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			But, yeah, it works very, very, very well.
		
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			You can just tuck that away wherever you
		
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			want, and then if you just wanna put
		
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			this in your lap, that would be perfect,
		
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			or on the chair is fine as well.
		
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			I'm just gonna make sure it's recording. I'm
		
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			pretty sure it is. Just double check this.
		
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			Yeah. We're good. Yeah.
		
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			Do you wanna test it? Or you did
		
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			test it? I tested it. Yeah. You tested
		
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			it already. Yep. How close do you need
		
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			it? It? It doesn't really make a difference.
		
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			I mean, if you have it here inside
		
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			or in wherever, it doesn't make a difference.
		
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			Yeah. It's very weird. What not happening? Yeah.
		
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			It is.
		
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			Under the table? As long as they don't
		
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			That's perfect, actually. Yeah. You with your hands
		
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			there, you don't even see it.
		
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			Alright.
		
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			So we're okay. And then so what I
		
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			would request, if we could, is if we
		
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			could have brief segments. So if Asen has
		
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			a prompt or an idea that he would
		
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			like you to respond on, if you could
		
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			respond to that point, and then we'll pause
		
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			for at least, like, 10, 5 seconds and
		
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			then move to the second prompt.
		
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			That will make it best for us to
		
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			be able to use with respect to the
		
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			video. So,
		
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			whenever you're ready.
		
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			I'm really gathering myself to get a little
		
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			program. That's okay. This will be easier. So
		
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			I'll
		
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			private,
		
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			sorry, academic space, how the intersection of health
		
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			or concerns about health have been favorable in
		
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			your own development?
		
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			That's okay. You're totally fine. We're we're on
		
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			unlimited spree.
		
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			K.
		
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			This is just filler that we might get
		
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			seconds from.
		
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			And just kinda as a point, if I
		
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			could have you put your other hand up
		
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			like you had it before. I don't have
		
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			too much like No. No. No. Them both
		
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			down? No. No. No. Actually, it was better
		
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			if they were up in front of you
		
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			because it would work it kinda hit that
		
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			microphone.
		
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			Oh, no. I didn't even notice. There's no
		
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			food. Everyday,
		
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			I cut myself. So I care about health.
		
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			It's the dry skin.
		
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			I'm telling you, because of weather. Yeah. I'm
		
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			really accident prone. She's nice. So she should
		
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			be really dry.
		
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			I think I do it deliberately so I
		
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			don't have to cook. Uh-huh. Every time I'm
		
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			in the kitchen, something happens.
		
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			We need to talk about chatbots. That's what's
		
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			trying to pump you. Tell about chatbots. See,
		
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			that's your thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the
		
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			way to help. That's why it's trying to
		
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			pump you. That keeps you an idea. Yeah.
		
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			Okay.
		
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			My main interest really is where,
		
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			to understand where Muslims
		
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			are making decisions,
		
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			from a legal and ethical perspective,
		
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			that will affect our lives.
		
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			And
		
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			I think we have a lot of scholarship
		
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			that is interesting from an academic perspective.
		
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			Not necessarily,
		
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			particularly relevant,
		
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			frankly,
		
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			to most
		
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			Generally, I think that Muslims,
		
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			don't have a lot of direction or support
		
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			for the most important things that are happening
		
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			in their lives.
		
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			And that includes their interaction with the health
		
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			care system.
		
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			Issues that relate to
		
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			to their own health decisions they have to
		
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			make,
		
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			but also systemic issue
		
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			as they are engaged
		
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			with institutions and provide them with,
		
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			health care.
		
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			And also, frankly, we have so many positions
		
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			great assets, but I believe are often,
		
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			without a lot of support for important ethical
		
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			decision decisions they need to make in their
		
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			job.
		
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			Would I I'll I'll I'll keep going with,
		
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			like, little bits, and then you can pull
		
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			out what you want. Mhmm.
		
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			I see that,
		
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			many Muslim physicians
		
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			do their best to get some support and
		
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			guidance
		
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			in what they do.
		
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			But the institutions
		
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			in America
		
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			really aren't there.
		
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			And,
		
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			I would say that internationally,
		
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			it's so much better.
		
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			The reason is because most people are looking
		
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			to fabulous as
		
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			When the issues are not yes and no,
		
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			They they don't demand yes and no responses.
		
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			Federal literature is basically about is something allowed
		
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			or not allowed. These are much more complicated
		
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			problems.
		
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			We,
		
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			have made some progress
		
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			in,
		
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			bringing
		
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			scholars
		
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			and scholars of the law
		
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			and medical professionals together.
		
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			But, frankly, just bringing them together in one
		
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			room doesn't solve the problem.
		
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			It doesn't solve the problem because they're
		
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			they don't have enough time
		
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			to really understand
		
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			where the other's coming from.
		
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			They don't have the background knowledge,
		
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			to understand the source of the decision making,
		
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			and they don't
		
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			they can't possibly learn the
		
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			facts of the situation
		
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			in a, you know, week long
		
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			seminar and consultation.
		
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			Do you think the to bridge that gap,
		
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			should that be done or how should that
		
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			be done, like, community focus?
		
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			Or do you think that should be done
		
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			in the
		
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			academy? Where do you think that gap would
		
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			be bridged, and how would it be bridged?
		
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			There's nothing
		
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			the issues that are facing,
		
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			us today, in terms of, health care and
		
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			their interaction
		
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			with the
		
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			medical
		
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			system and medical systems
		
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			can be solved by,
		
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			weekend workshops
		
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			or,
		
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			some kind of,
		
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			you know, extra training on top of a
		
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			a medical degree, for example, or weekend workshop,
		
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			or, Subaha, or
		
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			This needs a
		
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			dedicated,
		
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			serious professional,
		
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			academic, academic,
		
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			program
		
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			programs. The issues that,
		
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			need to be addressed,
		
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			require sustained research,
		
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			both into the the ethical tools, frameworks,
		
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			the theology,
		
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			underlying
		
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			an underlying,
		
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			the decisions we're making.
		
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			So it's not just about about law, but
		
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			really how we see the world, how we
		
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			see community,
		
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			how we understand
		
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			the person.
		
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			What is a person?
		
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			And how do we understand
		
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			the way that we're interacting with people in
		
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			the health care system, how it impacts their
		
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			own sense of personal
		
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			and their relation
		
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			to themselves, to the creator, to others.
		
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			So all of this needs,
		
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			needs serious academic research
		
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			to say nothing of the empirical
		
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			research that needs to be undertaken, the data,
		
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			we simply don't have the kind of information
		
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			that we need,
		
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			frankly, to even do some of the basic,
		
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			you know,
		
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			5th deliberations.
		
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			So so the initiative,
		
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			Islamic Medicine resides at an academic
		
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			institution? Well, I
		
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			because Chicago is a city that is rich
		
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			in,
		
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			Islamic resources,
		
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			business follows,
		
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			organizations,
		
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			people who can
		
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			provide
		
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			support,
		
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			interest, motivation
		
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			for an academic program. The University of Chicago,
		
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			obviously, is a biased
		
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			graduate.
		
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			The University of Chicago is
		
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			obviously a world class,
		
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			academic institution
		
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			with great resources. I mean,
		
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			world class medical school,
		
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			in addition to the University of Chicago Divinity
		
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			School, which provides a great resource.
		
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			And the Islamic Studies,
		
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			collection
		
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			at the university. All these things come together
		
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			to make this
		
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			a really great,
		
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			location for this initiative. In addition to the
		
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			fact that I've always felt that Chicago,
		
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			one of the city as a whole,
		
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			has the spirit of,
		
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			social justice,
		
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			activism,
		
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			and, the importance of paying attention
		
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			to community systems. This is a this is
		
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			a characteristic of Chicago generally, and the Olsen
		
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			community has picked up on that as well.
		
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			So I think it's just
		
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			a really exciting program and and the right
		
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			place for us to have.
		
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			So some of the things we're trying to
		
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			do,
		
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			seek
		
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			to provide information to people prior to their
		
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			making decisions.
		
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			So in your
		
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			well traveled
		
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			career,
		
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			Is there data
		
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			or about some issue in the health care
		
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			system or something about how people experience something
		
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			that you felt
		
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			would have improved the situation? And
		
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			how would the initiative then feel like that?
		
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			Or does it feel like that?
		
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			I spent,
		
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			many years training
		
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			Muslim chaplains.
		
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			But really, when I began the Islamic Chaplaincy
		
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			program at Hartford Seminary, it was it was
		
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			immediately apparent to me that what we were
		
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			doing was really just starting the field, beginning
		
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			the field, building the field. When my students
		
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			went out into their settings, the chapel c
		
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			settings,
		
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			in hospitals, for example,
		
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			and they looked for resources to help guide
		
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			them, to help patients make decisions,
		
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			or to help them
		
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			understand how to counsel them. They've we found
		
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			that it's very little available.
		
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			What's available is
		
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			basic,
		
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			simplistic,
		
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			superficial.
		
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			We need to understand better
		
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			where,
		
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			how people are making decisions in terms
		
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			of issues like their cultural background,
		
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			family processes,
		
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			The Western medical system
		
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			assumes or
		
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			prioritizes
		
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			the,
		
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			idea of, or the principle of autonomy.
		
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			We find that Muslims,
		
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			many Muslims, probably the majority of Muslims, because
		
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			on the one hand,
		
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			majority of Muslims come from collectivist societies,
		
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			but also, because Islam
		
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			emphasizes
		
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			our duties,
		
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			towards each other,
		
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			in the family,
		
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			that this
		
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			the concept of autonomy in Western medicine,
		
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			doesn't really,
		
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			match
		
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			their own
		
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50
			their own sense of of of who they
		
00:14:50 --> 00:14:51
			are as a person.
		
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			Most Muslims
		
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			really understand themselves to be independent
		
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			as
		
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			as a person who is
		
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			full of responsibilities and relationships.
		
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			So how do we, on the one hand,
		
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			how do we,
		
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			challenge, sometimes,
		
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			The, those who are
		
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			in the decision making process,
		
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			who are,
		
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			maybe pushing a certain idea,
		
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			or or a process, or priority in decision
		
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			making on Muslims.
		
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			And on the other hand, also,
		
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			unentangled,
		
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			some of those who perhaps
		
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			don't care enough about their their autonomy. I
		
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			mean, certainly Islam, I think,
		
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			does emphasize the the ultimate individual responsibility for
		
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			decision making. You know, we're gonna be raised
		
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			in front of our computer.
		
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			So the,
		
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			the decision making process can also tilt too
		
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			much much towards the other side.
		
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			But how do how do we,
		
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			as Muslims, understand the language people are using?
		
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			The the pressures,
		
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			socialization,
		
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			in order to help,
		
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			help people in very difficult circumstances,
		
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			make decisions that
		
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			are the right thing,
		
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			religiously.
		
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			And then also, will
		
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			will be supportive of their own,
		
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			their own their own value system and principles.
		
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			So you, were a keynote speaker
		
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			of or one of the keynote speakers in
		
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			a
		
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			conference that,
		
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			program of Medicine and Religion,
		
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			under which resides.
		
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			Conducted.
		
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			Can you tell us a little bit about
		
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			that experience and what you found was,
		
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			energizing about it,
		
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			and how that plays in the role we're
		
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			looking to do?
		
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			So
		
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			and the inter
		
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			Last year. Was it Azure? It was about
		
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			2014?
		
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07
			2014. So 14. Yeah. 24. 94.
		
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			Okay.
		
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			In 2014, I participated
		
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			in the
		
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			the
		
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			We spoke about,
		
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			the concept of
		
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			the,
		
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			the person
		
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			in medicine and
		
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			and what what's the relationship between
		
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			the person and the body.
		
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			I found that a really interesting
		
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			to
		
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			get from other people, to see where they're
		
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			coming from.
		
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			For the Abrahamic traditions,
		
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			what's always very interesting to me when it
		
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			comes to ethics is that
		
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			very often,
		
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			a a minor ethical tradition in Islam is
		
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			a is a major
		
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			school in one of the other Abrahamic religions.
		
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			So usually, we have pretty much the same
		
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			tools, but they may be in different balance.
		
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			But that also does help us discover within
		
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			our own traditions some of the,
		
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			maybe less examined
		
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			positions
		
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			or minor schools.
		
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			So that's always interesting.
		
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			For me,
		
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			being involved in the
		
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			in the,
		
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			conference on
		
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			the
		
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			the relationship of the body and the person
		
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			really spurred an idea for me on the
		
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			issue of,
		
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			of what it means, as a Muslim, for
		
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			us to care for others,
		
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			and what
		
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			people's own
		
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			what their own relationship to their body is.
		
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			And what I mean by that is
		
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			that when we,
		
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			see people who are in
		
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			very difficult circumstances,
		
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			medical situations that are extremely distressing
		
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			to observe, to witness,
		
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			It can be very challenging
		
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			for families,
		
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			for for community members, and even for the
		
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			individual themselves.
		
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			Very often, they'll,
		
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			they'll want to avoid interacting with others.
		
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			They'll have a sense of shame.
		
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			And we find that increasingly in contemporary society
		
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			that,
		
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			that's particularly the case with elderly people when
		
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			they begin to lose more function. And so
		
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			their sense of dignity is very tied up
		
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			to the ability
		
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			to,
		
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			to be independent.
		
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			So this is this is now affecting how
		
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			people consider what what what's the value of
		
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			life.
		
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			We find we find even very prominent,
		
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			individuals
		
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			in American society who are responsible for making
		
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			public policy decisions about health, saying things like,
		
00:20:11 --> 00:20:12
			I'd
		
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			rather I'd rather kill myself,
		
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			when I'm old and incapable
		
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			of functioning on my own
		
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			than be a so called burden
		
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			or be degraded
		
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			to the point where I'm no longer the
		
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			person I was. This is very troubling.
		
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			And this is where our voice really needs
		
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			to be heard.
		
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			To reduce a human being to their physical
		
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			function and capacity,
		
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			is,
		
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			is the basis form of materialism.
		
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			And I think we should be alarmed
		
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			by this and and truly understand
		
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			that,
		
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			there are all sorts of public policy decision
		
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			making decisions that are being made and will
		
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			continue to be made according to this
		
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			kind of vision
		
00:21:00 --> 00:21:03
			of what of what a human being is.
		
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			So I think it's important for us to
		
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			continue to have these conversations and engage in
		
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			particular with people of other religious traditions,
		
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			who are also
		
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			who also have a richer,
		
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			more holistic view
		
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			of,
		
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			the value
		
00:21:21 --> 00:21:22
			of the person.
		
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			That's 2 questions. So
		
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			why is it important for Muslim voices to
		
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			get engaged around
		
00:21:31 --> 00:21:32
			bioethics
		
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34
			and and those initiatives.
		
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44
			It's pretty clear to me that for the
		
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			past couple decades, Muslims have been
		
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			mostly
		
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51
			reactionary
		
00:21:51 --> 00:21:52
			when it comes to,
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:53
			biomedical
		
00:21:54 --> 00:21:54
			issues.
		
00:21:55 --> 00:21:56
			We get invited
		
00:21:56 --> 00:21:57
			to,
		
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00
			you know, some some group is putting on
		
00:22:00 --> 00:22:01
			a talk,
		
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03
			and they want they decided in terms of
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:06
			diversity that they wanna include a Muslim voice.
		
00:22:06 --> 00:22:07
			So they look around. They try to find
		
00:22:07 --> 00:22:08
			someone
		
00:22:09 --> 00:22:10
			who they think can communicate,
		
00:22:12 --> 00:22:13
			you know, fairly effectively,
		
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18
			to come and speak. But very often, these
		
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20
			people are not experts in the field.
		
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24
			I mean, I've been asked to to speak
		
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26
			in some context where I I,
		
00:22:26 --> 00:22:27
			you know, I said I'm
		
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31
			I have no expertise whatsoever in this area.
		
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33
			Yet, they say, well, we don't
		
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35
			can you recommend anyone else? Is there anyone
		
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38
			else? And and frankly, very often, they're I
		
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40
			can't come up with a list of people.
		
00:22:42 --> 00:22:44
			So we've been quite passive up till now.
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47
			We've been haphazard and ad hoc.
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:50
			We need a much more serious effort.
		
00:22:52 --> 00:22:53
			We need to seriously
		
00:22:54 --> 00:22:54
			address
		
00:22:55 --> 00:22:56
			in a
		
00:22:57 --> 00:22:57
			systematic,
		
00:22:58 --> 00:22:59
			professional,
		
00:23:01 --> 00:23:02
			academic
		
00:23:02 --> 00:23:02
			way,
		
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05
			the issues of bioethics
		
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10
			that are facing all of us,
		
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13
			in our in our lives today, and will
		
00:23:13 --> 00:23:16
			will certainly become even more perilous
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:18
			in the future.
		
00:23:20 --> 00:23:22
			Anything that you see as different
		
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31
			What other programs? Are you
		
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34
			Any other I mean, I I don't know.
		
00:23:34 --> 00:23:36
			Other other programs?
		
00:23:37 --> 00:23:38
			That's a good point.
		
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46
			We should keep some of that further up.
		
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48
			Just tiny bit. Not myriad.
		
00:23:49 --> 00:23:49
			Yeah.
		
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52
			Oh, okay. So what's the unique opportunity? How's
		
00:23:52 --> 00:23:52
			that?
		
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55
			Well, I mean
		
00:23:56 --> 00:24:01
			Yeah. I think there are many people who,
		
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03
			assume that a lot of good work is
		
00:24:03 --> 00:24:04
			being done in bioethics
		
00:24:05 --> 00:24:06
			in the
		
00:24:07 --> 00:24:08
			Muslim majority countries.
		
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12
			And certainly, there are some initiatives that have
		
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14
			begun there. But I
		
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16
			I my observation
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:19
			is that these tend to these programs tend
		
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21
			to be following the lead
		
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23
			of Western academic institutions
		
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26
			that have set up branches of their universities
		
00:24:26 --> 00:24:28
			or research centers in these countries.
		
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33
			And this is somewhat alarming to me.
		
00:24:34 --> 00:24:36
			This means that the,
		
00:24:37 --> 00:24:39
			modes of thinking about bioethics that have been
		
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42
			established in the United States that are, frankly,
		
00:24:43 --> 00:24:44
			not always,
		
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48
			in harmony with the religious way of thinking
		
00:24:48 --> 00:24:49
			about these,
		
00:24:50 --> 00:24:52
			the Islamic way of thinking about these things,
		
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54
			is being established in,
		
00:24:55 --> 00:24:56
			very influential
		
00:24:56 --> 00:24:57
			Muslim majority countries.
		
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02
			But that, I guess, that also gives us
		
00:25:02 --> 00:25:03
			another opportunity,
		
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05
			is is that the United States, you know,
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07
			frankly, is the cultural leader in the world,
		
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10
			the intellectual leader. It means that if good
		
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12
			work is done here in the area of
		
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14
			bioethics, it can also impact,
		
00:25:16 --> 00:25:17
			northern countries,
		
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20
			because they are so influenced by what happens
		
00:25:20 --> 00:25:23
			in, American academia. So I have a lot
		
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26
			of hope for this initiative on Sound of
		
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28
			Medicine in Chicago. I I would love to
		
00:25:28 --> 00:25:29
			see it grow.
		
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33
			I think it's critical that we have a
		
00:25:33 --> 00:25:34
			much more
		
00:25:34 --> 00:25:35
			robust,
		
00:25:36 --> 00:25:36
			ongoing,
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39
			and sustaining program in area.