Ingrid Mattson – Testimonial
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The other thing is that it's an area
that
everybody
gets involved with. Like, so I you know,
you there's all this stuff on the life
care. I mean, you there's things that people
deal with, but they don't deal with them
until they're at this juncture. And for us
to have informed ideas about what we think
about these things prior to that, that is
important.
The last thing is that even
but even
blood transfusion or donation or we have a
talk on our life care. And that's what
Muslims believe or what they think, but we
actually have no data on any of that.
And so we
a
policy, our own program development.
So those are the 3 frames that different
different models use.
But,
some of that, if you think it's pertinent
or not, but you can speak up really
extra frames. So what I've asked today was,
you know, what do you think is important
and you can talk about it. Or What's
particular? Right? Those are the questions I'll ask
you. Do we both on camera? No. No.
Are you just are you just taking my
answers? I'm just gonna take your answers and
it's basically you can It's it's as if
you're having a conversation with Asim. Yeah. It's
it's totally fine. You don't have to look
directly at the camera. Most people don't, actually.
The only thing I have, a video feed
here, and then this is gonna be the
audio feed. So if I could just have
you how are you doing your audio? It's
so interesting. So you have the regular It's
the Apple cable and we just we just
cut off
the the headphone. Right. And then clicked on
a clip port. And then so it's just
recording to the audio feed in the Does
that work well? Yeah. It works really well.
Really? Mhmm.
It's much better than, you know, this because
it's so far. You're gonna catch everything, whereas
this one's more localized.
But, yeah, it works very, very, very well.
You can just tuck that away wherever you
want, and then if you just wanna put
this in your lap, that would be perfect,
or on the chair is fine as well.
I'm just gonna make sure it's recording. I'm
pretty sure it is. Just double check this.
Yeah. We're good. Yeah.
Do you wanna test it? Or you did
test it? I tested it. Yeah. You tested
it already. Yep. How close do you need
it? It? It doesn't really make a difference.
I mean, if you have it here inside
or in wherever, it doesn't make a difference.
Yeah. It's very weird. What not happening? Yeah.
It is.
Under the table? As long as they don't
That's perfect, actually. Yeah. You with your hands
there, you don't even see it.
Alright.
So we're okay. And then so what I
would request, if we could, is if we
could have brief segments. So if Asen has
a prompt or an idea that he would
like you to respond on, if you could
respond to that point, and then we'll pause
for at least, like, 10, 5 seconds and
then move to the second prompt.
That will make it best for us to
be able to use with respect to the
video. So,
whenever you're ready.
I'm really gathering myself to get a little
program. That's okay. This will be easier. So
I'll
private,
sorry, academic space, how the intersection of health
or concerns about health have been favorable in
your own development?
That's okay. You're totally fine. We're we're on
unlimited spree.
K.
This is just filler that we might get
seconds from.
And just kinda as a point, if I
could have you put your other hand up
like you had it before. I don't have
too much like No. No. No. Them both
down? No. No. No. Actually, it was better
if they were up in front of you
because it would work it kinda hit that
microphone.
Oh, no. I didn't even notice. There's no
food. Everyday,
I cut myself. So I care about health.
It's the dry skin.
I'm telling you, because of weather. Yeah. I'm
really accident prone. She's nice. So she should
be really dry.
I think I do it deliberately so I
don't have to cook. Uh-huh. Every time I'm
in the kitchen, something happens.
We need to talk about chatbots. That's what's
trying to pump you. Tell about chatbots. See,
that's your thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the
way to help. That's why it's trying to
pump you. That keeps you an idea. Yeah.
Okay.
My main interest really is where,
to understand where Muslims
are making decisions,
from a legal and ethical perspective,
that will affect our lives.
And
I think we have a lot of scholarship
that is interesting from an academic perspective.
Not necessarily,
particularly relevant,
frankly,
to most
Generally, I think that Muslims,
don't have a lot of direction or support
for the most important things that are happening
in their lives.
And that includes their interaction with the health
care system.
Issues that relate to
to their own health decisions they have to
make,
but also systemic issue
as they are engaged
with institutions and provide them with,
health care.
And also, frankly, we have so many positions
great assets, but I believe are often,
without a lot of support for important ethical
decision decisions they need to make in their
job.
Would I I'll I'll I'll keep going with,
like, little bits, and then you can pull
out what you want. Mhmm.
I see that,
many Muslim physicians
do their best to get some support and
guidance
in what they do.
But the institutions
in America
really aren't there.
And,
I would say that internationally,
it's so much better.
The reason is because most people are looking
to fabulous as
When the issues are not yes and no,
They they don't demand yes and no responses.
Federal literature is basically about is something allowed
or not allowed. These are much more complicated
problems.
We,
have made some progress
in,
bringing
scholars
and scholars of the law
and medical professionals together.
But, frankly, just bringing them together in one
room doesn't solve the problem.
It doesn't solve the problem because they're
they don't have enough time
to really understand
where the other's coming from.
They don't have the background knowledge,
to understand the source of the decision making,
and they don't
they can't possibly learn the
facts of the situation
in a, you know, week long
seminar and consultation.
Do you think the to bridge that gap,
should that be done or how should that
be done, like, community focus?
Or do you think that should be done
in the
academy? Where do you think that gap would
be bridged, and how would it be bridged?
There's nothing
the issues that are facing,
us today, in terms of, health care and
their interaction
with the
medical
system and medical systems
can be solved by,
weekend workshops
or,
some kind of,
you know, extra training on top of a
a medical degree, for example, or weekend workshop,
or, Subaha, or
This needs a
dedicated,
serious professional,
academic, academic,
program
programs. The issues that,
need to be addressed,
require sustained research,
both into the the ethical tools, frameworks,
the theology,
underlying
an underlying,
the decisions we're making.
So it's not just about about law, but
really how we see the world, how we
see community,
how we understand
the person.
What is a person?
And how do we understand
the way that we're interacting with people in
the health care system, how it impacts their
own sense of personal
and their relation
to themselves, to the creator, to others.
So all of this needs,
needs serious academic research
to say nothing of the empirical
research that needs to be undertaken, the data,
we simply don't have the kind of information
that we need,
frankly, to even do some of the basic,
you know,
5th deliberations.
So so the initiative,
Islamic Medicine resides at an academic
institution? Well, I
because Chicago is a city that is rich
in,
Islamic resources,
business follows,
organizations,
people who can
provide
support,
interest, motivation
for an academic program. The University of Chicago,
obviously, is a biased
graduate.
The University of Chicago is
obviously a world class,
academic institution
with great resources. I mean,
world class medical school,
in addition to the University of Chicago Divinity
School, which provides a great resource.
And the Islamic Studies,
collection
at the university. All these things come together
to make this
a really great,
location for this initiative. In addition to the
fact that I've always felt that Chicago,
one of the city as a whole,
has the spirit of,
social justice,
activism,
and, the importance of paying attention
to community systems. This is a this is
a characteristic of Chicago generally, and the Olsen
community has picked up on that as well.
So I think it's just
a really exciting program and and the right
place for us to have.
So some of the things we're trying to
do,
seek
to provide information to people prior to their
making decisions.
So in your
well traveled
career,
Is there data
or about some issue in the health care
system or something about how people experience something
that you felt
would have improved the situation? And
how would the initiative then feel like that?
Or does it feel like that?
I spent,
many years training
Muslim chaplains.
But really, when I began the Islamic Chaplaincy
program at Hartford Seminary, it was it was
immediately apparent to me that what we were
doing was really just starting the field, beginning
the field, building the field. When my students
went out into their settings, the chapel c
settings,
in hospitals, for example,
and they looked for resources to help guide
them, to help patients make decisions,
or to help them
understand how to counsel them. They've we found
that it's very little available.
What's available is
basic,
simplistic,
superficial.
We need to understand better
where,
how people are making decisions in terms
of issues like their cultural background,
family processes,
The Western medical system
assumes or
prioritizes
the,
idea of, or the principle of autonomy.
We find that Muslims,
many Muslims, probably the majority of Muslims, because
on the one hand,
majority of Muslims come from collectivist societies,
but also, because Islam
emphasizes
our duties,
towards each other,
in the family,
that this
the concept of autonomy in Western medicine,
doesn't really,
match
their own
their own sense of of of who they
are as a person.
Most Muslims
really understand themselves to be independent
as
as a person who is
full of responsibilities and relationships.
So how do we, on the one hand,
how do we,
challenge, sometimes,
The, those who are
in the decision making process,
who are,
maybe pushing a certain idea,
or or a process, or priority in decision
making on Muslims.
And on the other hand, also,
unentangled,
some of those who perhaps
don't care enough about their their autonomy. I
mean, certainly Islam, I think,
does emphasize the the ultimate individual responsibility for
decision making. You know, we're gonna be raised
in front of our computer.
So the,
the decision making process can also tilt too
much much towards the other side.
But how do how do we,
as Muslims, understand the language people are using?
The the pressures,
socialization,
in order to help,
help people in very difficult circumstances,
make decisions that
are the right thing,
religiously.
And then also, will
will be supportive of their own,
their own their own value system and principles.
So you, were a keynote speaker
of or one of the keynote speakers in
a
conference that,
program of Medicine and Religion,
under which resides.
Conducted.
Can you tell us a little bit about
that experience and what you found was,
energizing about it,
and how that plays in the role we're
looking to do?
So
and the inter
Last year. Was it Azure? It was about
2014?
2014. So 14. Yeah. 24. 94.
Okay.
In 2014, I participated
in the
the
We spoke about,
the concept of
the,
the person
in medicine and
and what what's the relationship between
the person and the body.
I found that a really interesting
to
get from other people, to see where they're
coming from.
For the Abrahamic traditions,
what's always very interesting to me when it
comes to ethics is that
very often,
a a minor ethical tradition in Islam is
a is a major
school in one of the other Abrahamic religions.
So usually, we have pretty much the same
tools, but they may be in different balance.
But that also does help us discover within
our own traditions some of the,
maybe less examined
positions
or minor schools.
So that's always interesting.
For me,
being involved in the
in the,
conference on
the
the relationship of the body and the person
really spurred an idea for me on the
issue of,
of what it means, as a Muslim, for
us to care for others,
and what
people's own
what their own relationship to their body is.
And what I mean by that is
that when we,
see people who are in
very difficult circumstances,
medical situations that are extremely distressing
to observe, to witness,
It can be very challenging
for families,
for for community members, and even for the
individual themselves.
Very often, they'll,
they'll want to avoid interacting with others.
They'll have a sense of shame.
And we find that increasingly in contemporary society
that,
that's particularly the case with elderly people when
they begin to lose more function. And so
their sense of dignity is very tied up
to the ability
to,
to be independent.
So this is this is now affecting how
people consider what what what's the value of
life.
We find we find even very prominent,
individuals
in American society who are responsible for making
public policy decisions about health, saying things like,
I'd
rather I'd rather kill myself,
when I'm old and incapable
of functioning on my own
than be a so called burden
or be degraded
to the point where I'm no longer the
person I was. This is very troubling.
And this is where our voice really needs
to be heard.
To reduce a human being to their physical
function and capacity,
is,
is the basis form of materialism.
And I think we should be alarmed
by this and and truly understand
that,
there are all sorts of public policy decision
making decisions that are being made and will
continue to be made according to this
kind of vision
of what of what a human being is.
So I think it's important for us to
continue to have these conversations and engage in
particular with people of other religious traditions,
who are also
who also have a richer,
more holistic view
of,
the value
of the person.
That's 2 questions. So
why is it important for Muslim voices to
get engaged around
bioethics
and and those initiatives.
It's pretty clear to me that for the
past couple decades, Muslims have been
mostly
reactionary
when it comes to,
biomedical
issues.
We get invited
to,
you know, some some group is putting on
a talk,
and they want they decided in terms of
diversity that they wanna include a Muslim voice.
So they look around. They try to find
someone
who they think can communicate,
you know, fairly effectively,
to come and speak. But very often, these
people are not experts in the field.
I mean, I've been asked to to speak
in some context where I I,
you know, I said I'm
I have no expertise whatsoever in this area.
Yet, they say, well, we don't
can you recommend anyone else? Is there anyone
else? And and frankly, very often, they're I
can't come up with a list of people.
So we've been quite passive up till now.
We've been haphazard and ad hoc.
We need a much more serious effort.
We need to seriously
address
in a
systematic,
professional,
academic
way,
the issues of bioethics
that are facing all of us,
in our in our lives today, and will
will certainly become even more perilous
in the future.
Anything that you see as different
What other programs? Are you
Any other I mean, I I don't know.
Other other programs?
That's a good point.
We should keep some of that further up.
Just tiny bit. Not myriad.
Yeah.
Oh, okay. So what's the unique opportunity? How's
that?
Well, I mean
Yeah. I think there are many people who,
assume that a lot of good work is
being done in bioethics
in the
Muslim majority countries.
And certainly, there are some initiatives that have
begun there. But I
I my observation
is that these tend to these programs tend
to be following the lead
of Western academic institutions
that have set up branches of their universities
or research centers in these countries.
And this is somewhat alarming to me.
This means that the,
modes of thinking about bioethics that have been
established in the United States that are, frankly,
not always,
in harmony with the religious way of thinking
about these,
the Islamic way of thinking about these things,
is being established in,
very influential
Muslim majority countries.
But that, I guess, that also gives us
another opportunity,
is is that the United States, you know,
frankly, is the cultural leader in the world,
the intellectual leader. It means that if good
work is done here in the area of
bioethics, it can also impact,
northern countries,
because they are so influenced by what happens
in, American academia. So I have a lot
of hope for this initiative on Sound of
Medicine in Chicago. I I would love to
see it grow.
I think it's critical that we have a
much more
robust,
ongoing,
and sustaining program in area.