Ingrid Mattson – Sacred Dialogues Across the Qur’an February 20, 2013
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AI: Transcript ©
Good afternoon, and welcome to the 2012,
2013
Bannon Institute
on Sacred Texts in the Public Sphere.
My name is Mick McCarthy. I am the
executive director of the Ignatian Center For Jesuit
Education,
which aims to be recognized in Silicon
Valley and beyond as providing leadership for the
integration of faith, justice, and the intellectual life.
This winter, our theme is sacred dialogue,
interpreting and embodying sacred texts across traditions.
Today's lecture on sacred dialogues across the Quran
will be delivered by professor Ingrid Mattson from
the University of Western Ontario, and it's a
pleasure to welcome you to to Santa Clara.
To introduce our speaker, though, I would like
to call upon doctor David Panot of the
religious studies department here at Santa Clara. Professor
Panot.
Thanks, Mick.
In a biographical statement,
today's speaker described herself
as someone who had abandoned religion for good
as a teen,
but then embraced the religion of Islam
at the end of her undergraduate studies.
After earning a bachelor's degree in philosophy and
fine arts in 1987
from the University of Waterloo in Ontario,
she went on to receive her PhD
in Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
from the University of Chicago in 1999.
Formerly the director
of the McDonald's Center For Islamic Studies
and Christian Muslim Relations
at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut,
Currently,
she is the London and Windsor community chair
of Islamic Studies
at Huron University College
at the University of Western Ontario in Canada.
Today's speaker
has earned distinction
in the realms of both Islamic scholarship
and civic engagement.
She is the author of The Story of
the Quran,
Its History and Place in Muslim Life,
a book which was hailed upon its publication
for its, quote, remarkable breadth of scholarship
and as an academically based,
well documented introduction to the Quran, which will
find wide readership.
As the former president of the Islamic Society
of North America
and as the first woman to lead that
organization,
today's speaker
has spoken on a broad range of public
topics involving interfaith dialogue
and in encouraging Canadian Muslims
to become active participants
in Canadian society at large.
Upon her appointment to her present position at
Huron University College,
she was hailed by commentators
as one of the outstanding
religious leaders in this country,
a wonderful combination
of scholar and practitioner,
and as one of the great leaders of
Islam on this continent.
The topic of today's presentation is
sacred dialogues
across the Quran.
Ladies and gentlemen,
please join me in welcoming our speaker this
afternoon, professor Ingrid Monson.
Well, thank you so much for the introduction,
and,
thank you all for coming here today. It's
such a a nice,
full house,
and I,
really am very happy to be here in
Santa Clara. I want to thank,
the Bannon Institute for this invitation,
very generous invitation, and I'm excited to be
part of the series that,
looks like it's just been so fascinating.
Now I know here today, we have students,
undergraduate students, and community members, and faculty and
staff.
And since this talk is being livestreamed
and,
then no doubt we'll live
somewhere on the Internet for a long time,
I wanted to explain that,
I've been asked to speak to this this
general audience, and I will do my best
to,
to address this topic in a way that
will,
will provide
some information and perspective that will be of
interest to to most of you. And if
not,
there's nothing interested in it or I haven't,
you know, resolved any of your, concerns or
questions, please stick around for the question period
later,
and we'll have lots of time, for discussion.
Now,
I was
in the introduction,
it was noted that I
have not only
engaged in in scholarship on the Quran and
Islamic studies generally,
but,
engage with Muslim communities, living and practicing Muslim
communities, and especially
as vice president and then president of the
Islamic Society of North America.
Been very concerned
about
the lived tradition of Islam
and, in particular,
how Muslim communities, not just individuals, live Islam.
And today,
this is,
my primary concern with this with this,
talk.
To introduce,
I want to,
you know, really convey the understanding
that,
when we look at the revelatory period of
the Quran,
and for those of you who are not
aware, the Quran is
the collection of revelations that were made to
the prophet Muhammad
over the the,
2 decade
period of his prophecy. So he was called
as a prophet
at around 40 years old.
He died around,
63 years old.
And during that time, he received revelations from
god
that,
were the Quran. So when he died, the
revelations
ceased.
He lived in a community. He lived in
a community that was challenged by all sorts
of issues.
7th century
tribal Arabia
had,
many injustices,
female infanticide,
tribal warfare,
misogyny of the highest order,
economic injustice, the gap between rich and poor,
no sense of
a of a ethic or right that went
beyond
tribal identity and solidarity,
loyalty to the group.
So this was a time,
really a very brief time if we think
of it. I I the older I get,
the the more I consider it to be
a very brief time. I'm entering my 50th
year
and thinking about 23 years,
how short that really is,
not only for an individual to learn when
we think about
what we learn over the course of our
life, but for a community to change, for
a community
that has so many
systemic injustices embedded in it. For it to
change,
this is just a blink of the eye.
And so
the Quran gave a foundation,
a solid foundation to which people could turn.
But
although there were some tremendous transformations in this
community,
certainly,
everything did not change. Everything
couldn't have changed in this period, and we
know that injustice remained
a challenge and it remains a challenge for
for all communities.
But during this period of revelation, during this
23
year period,
believing men and women
raise questions about the fairness of certain practices
and even about the way the Quran spoke
to them.
The fact that many of these concerns were
addressed by the ongoing revelation
is part of the Qur'anic message that needs
to be understood, and this is my main
argument or thesis today.
Not everything
in the Quran was revealed in response
to something that happened,
but there were many
passages of the Quran that were revealed
in a responsive manner. Something happened in the
community
and God responded.
This responsiveness
itself seems to me to be an important
part of the message.
You know, Muslims are are used to thinking
about the Quran,
as in a holistic way as being both
the words, the message, and the form
of the words.
But primarily, we think about the forms of
the word words as the Arabic language
and the way the Quran is recited.
This is why the the,
art and science of Quranic recitation is such
an important part of the Islamic tradition. The
Quran important part of the Islamic tradition.
The Quran is preserved both as a book
and as an oral recitation.
And to know what the Quran means and
to be able to really convey the Quran,
it needs to be,
spoken
and recited and repeated
in a way that that reproduces
that beautiful language
and the beautiful articulation.
So the medium
of the language is an important part of
the of the message of the Quran.
And, in fact, the phrasing
and,
the the way
that language is put together helps emphasize meaning.
I give the example in my book of
the shortest
Surah or the shortest, one of the shortest
Surahs of the Quran,
sort of the epitome of the Quranic message,
which is Surah Al Ikhlas,
the chapter about,
of
it's known as the chapter of sincerity, but,
really, it's it's a main theological
statement.
It says and I want you to listen
for
the simplicity
of these verses. Just be patient with me.
It's very short, but I'll say it in
Arabic.
Now
it says, say he is god the 1,
God the eternal.
He is not born, or does he,
beget,
and there is nothing like him. It's a
it's an important theological statement about the unity
of god,
but do you hear how it's so simple?
How the phrasing I could probably if we
had the time,
I could say it. You could learn it
in about 5 minutes. It's almost like a
nursery rhyme.
You hear how it rhymes?
How each part rhymes.
So it's it's it's the simplicity and the
so the sound, the words,
the fact that
all of those are are are monosyllabic
words except for, you know, one of them
is
makes it so easy,
and the message is supposed to be easy
and simple,
the purity and the simplicity
of the unity of god.
So this idea
that the sound of the Quran,
the language of the Quran
supports and is part of the message of
the Quran is something that is well known
to Muslims.
What I'm saying in this talk is something
a little bit more.
I'm saying that
the way
that the Quran
spoke to the people
of the time of the original revelation is
also part of its message.
The responsiveness
of the Quran is part of its message,
And this is the challenge for the Muslim
community today
to
engage with that responsiveness,
to mirror
that responsiveness,
to exercise that kind of responsiveness,
as we look at the challenges
in the community
and cries for justice, for claims of injustice.
After the prophet Mohammed died, one of his
companions, a woman named Aiman,
was crying.
And 2 of the great leaders of the
Muslim community, Abu Bakr and Umar, they were
visiting her because they knew she was very
close to the prophet Muhammad. So after he
died, they wanted to visit her and keep
her company.
And when she was crying, they said, why
are you crying? Don't you know that he,
meaning the prophet,
is in a place much better? You know,
he's with god now. She said, I know
this. I could almost imagine the the kind
of annoyance in her voice. Of course, I
know that. You think I don't know that?
She said, I'm crying
because the revelation from heaven has been cut
off.
So the idea that
the Quran was here, God was speaking to
us, and now it's over.
And
a part a major part of of Islamic
orthodoxy
is the view that
Mohammed is the last prophet. So this is
the last revelation
that is available to all humanity.
It is a revelation for all of humanity,
and there won't be another
revelation
given to humanity.
The Quran acknowledges
and supports
the validity of the revelation of the Torah
and of
the the words and the teachings of Jesus
and of other scripture before time.
But the
Islamic community understood that the prophet Muhammad was
the last prophet. There wouldn't be another revelation.
Now
the challenge then is this.
If this is the final revelation, if the
revelation
from heaven is cut off, then what is
the community left with?
Does god still speak?
Muslims understand the Quran to be the word
of god, the living word of god.
If that's the case, how is god still
speaking today?
And here, I'm I'm really continuing for those
of you who have who have looked at
at my book on the Quran. My final
chapter is called
Listening for God.
And my emphasis there is is, to some
extent, on on the individual.
But here, I really wanna talk about the
community. How is it possible
for the community to listen to god
now,
and in what way
is god being responsive
to us,
or can we understand
god being responsive
to our concerns?
I've been thinking about this issue with more
or less attention
now for many years,
and
perhaps, the origin of this question is in
an encounter I had with one of my
teachers many years ago.
He is
a a sheikh, a scholar, a recognized scholar,
educated
in Islamic
universities and seminaries,
very authoritative,
understanding and traditional understanding of Islamic law and
theology,
someone who served as an imam of a
mosque community,
has served on,
juridical bodies, so bodies of,
Muslim scholars who answer questions of law.
Well, many years ago, he and I were
discussing the issue of domestic violence and how
it was a serious problem
in any community, but, especially, we were finding
among immigrant and refugee women
in the Muslim community.
These women, they seem to face additional challenges
because they were separated here from
family and friends who would provide them with
support,
who would, you know, make sure that they
were well taken care of.
It's funny, you know, in the earliest,
some of the earliest sample marriage documents that
we have from just a few centuries after
the rise of Islam,
a sample marriage contract that was designed to
teach,
Muslim students of the law of Islamic law
how to write up these contracts.
One of the things that it says there,
one of the kind of,
you know, conditions that it puts in the
contract that was so common that it's in
the sample marriage contract is that a man
would not
move the woman away from her family.
And and, really, there's that sense that a
woman becomes vulnerable when she's away from not
just her familiar
setting, but also from those people who love
her and care from her and who can
really keep an eye and make sure that
her husband's treating her well. And if not,
they'll have something to do with it.
So we were talking about about this issue
and the challenge of of displaced people and
people who have been uprooted and are really
isolated and,
you know, American society is is more individualistic.
And my teacher said to me,
there's no doubt that if the Quran were
being revealed today,
it would address the situation of these abused
women.
And at the time, I have to say,
I found the phrasing to be very odd.
If the Quran were being revealed today,
was a kind of, like,
a counter history or alternative
sort of imagining of history. And it seemed
to me to be bordering almost on heretical
to say something like if the Quran would
be revealed today, it would have this
different emphasis.
But, of course, I knew that he was
far more knowledgeable than me and that it
couldn't possibly be heretical, so it must be
rooted you know, my sense must be rooted
in
some some lack of understanding that I had
about the Quran,
how to engage with the Quran.
And
I thought about it so much, and and
the thing that really struck me was the
confidence
the scholar demonstrated
in in what you might call his understanding
of the the personality
of the Quran,
you know, what the Quran would do.
And since the Quran is the word of
the living God,
his conviction that it is God's practice or
habit,
in Arabic, we would say sunnah,
to respond
to the concerns of a faithful believer and
a faithful community.
And if that's the case,
and we don't have a new revelation, how
is God still speaking to us today? You
know, this really raised the question for me.
So if the Quran is the word of
God, God's speech, and this is an expression
that, if we have time, we'll
discuss in in greater detail,
then it's quite clear that god chose
or chooses to speak in a certain manner.
And often
often
in response to those who feel they've been
wronged or marginalized.
Now let me give a few examples from
the Quran.
I open my book with the,
anecdote or the story
about Khawla
bin Salaba,
who was a woman
living a Muslim woman
living within the prophet's community.
And
the prophet Muhammad's own,
way of dealing with issues in the community
or authority was this,
that
he he came to overturn,
certainly, some ideas that were wrong, especially theological
ideas.
But when it came to existing practices in
the community, it was a gradual approach.
And
practices that existed, customary law or norms, stayed
in existence until there was an explicit
revelation or he was guided to change them.
So one of the things that,
was a was a custom or habit or
practice
in that time was that
if a man was
angry at his wife or tired of her,
didn't wanna be married to her anymore,
he might say to her, declare to her,
you are to me as my mother's backside.
And that
that statement was not just an insult
or it was not just saying you've gotten
old. You're not attractive to me anymore.
It actually,
rendered her taboo. It changed her state
from a
wife to a person
who was now,
unlawful to approach because it would be an
incestuous
relationship. She was now like his mother,
yet she was not divorced. So there she
is stuck. She's not divorced from him,
but she's she's still married to him, yet
they have no relationship.
It was called,
or,
this declaration of saying, you know
well, it's a vulgar term. Let's just let's
just call it this this, declaration.
So
this,
Jaula's husband had said this in a moment
of anger, but he was a tended to
be an impulsive person. And afterwards, he said,
I'm very sorry. Why did I do that?
He's crying. He's saying, really, I love you.
You know?
And, Paula said, yeah. Okay. Well, I forgive
you, but what can we do? You know?
What can we do? You said it. It
can't be taken back.
So she went to the prophet Mohammed,
and she said, look. This is what happened.
I love him. I forgive him. I know
he loves me.
We wanna be married.
And the prophet Mohammed said,
I haven't received a revelation about this.
You know, customs and practices and laws were
in existence until
he received something from god.
And so what did Khawla do?
She said, okay.
I'll wait.
And she waited.
And she waited outside his door,
And she was weeping,
and everyone,
the prophet's wife, talked about how her heart
was just breaking. She felt so sorry for
her.
And the next day,
the prophet Mohammed came out, and he said,
I've received a revelation from God. This practice
is annulled.
And he recited
the verses that were revealed to him saying
that the this formula now had no legal
effect. So someone,
if they said it, it did no longer
had an legal effect.
It's a sinful action that if a man
says it,
he needs to,
it's a sin, and he needs to make
some kind of,
ask forgiveness and also,
expiate his sin by by fasting or charity.
And so she was able
to go back to her husband. And I'll
just read the beginning of it. It says,
god has heard the words of she who
disputes with you, and here the you is
the prophet Mohammed.
So god has heard the words of she
who disputes with you regarding her husband
and made her complaint to god.
God hears your conversation.
Verily, god is all seeing, all hearing, all
seeing.
God heard her.
The word,
this this,
word she who disputes and is
one word in Arabic,
And this,
passage,
became part of a of a chapter of
the Quran that was named after this woman.
So
this this chapter of the Quran is called
she who disputes.
She's disputing
with the prophet Muhammad
about this practice
and making her complaint
to god,
and god
heard the words
of her.
Now
in this example, the question is this,
this practice,
this,
custom of rendering a woman taboo this way
no longer exists, or if it exists, maybe
among some, you know, remote
Arab tribe somewhere.
But for the vast majority of
Muslims, it's gone. It's been gone for a
long time.
So the question is, is this just a
historical artifact?
And if not,
does the Muslim community truly hear what god
is saying
when god says
god has heard the words of she who
disputes
with you regarding her husband and made her
complaint to god, and we'll come back to
this point later.
The second example,
Aisha, the wife of the prophet Mohammed,
was slandered. And this is a very
common situation
for women who are thought to have,
you know,
gone beyond
what seeks their acceptable place in society.
The easiest thing
to try
to get a woman to go back in
her place is to accuse her of being
a loose woman,
to accuse her of being immodest,
to accuse her of having done done something
that,
puts
either
her chastity or the honor of her husband
in question.
And Aisha was in this situation.
I won't go and narrate the whole story.
We could talk about that later if necessary.
But the the fact is that she was
unjustly
accused. Now when she was accused,
and her husband is the prophet Mohammed,
he had no knowledge of what had happened,
of the situation.
So he turned to her, and he said,
Aisha, you know, if you've done something wrong,
repent to god,
which one is a, you know, remarkable
example that you just wish
all husbands would follow or male relatives.
He didn't say,
why did you put me in this situation?
Why did you, you know,
bring shame to me?
You have to,
you better be sorry.
He said,
repent to god. He considered this to be
a situation between her and God.
Aisha was very offended, you know, that even
the possibility that anyone would think that she
was unchaste,
And she expressed her confidence in god,
and she said
that
she,
like the she remembered a passage of the
Quran
where
Jacob, the father of Joseph, when he's in
the middle of a situation where he knows
that something has gone wrong, but he can't
he doesn't really know the truth about Joseph
and Joseph's younger brother, what's happened to them.
But he knows that the story that he's
getting is not true,
and he expresses his confidence in God. So
Aisha does the same thing.
What's interesting is that here, the revelation well,
the revelation for the mujjadilah, for
Hawla took some time, took a evening, took
a night,
here it took longer.
And
in the waiting,
there were members of the community who were
spreading all kinds of rumors.
There were those who were urging the prophet
to divorce Aisha.
Look. She's she's just brought you shame. What
are people gonna think about you? You're the
head of the community.
You know, you can't let this woman do
this to you.
And all the time, she's waiting.
And the prophet
gave her space and gave him himself space.
But then a revelation did come
that
exonerated Aisha but also said
that
anyone who accuses
women, chaste women of slander,
and they don't have with them there aren't
4 witnesses altogether
to what happened
that they have committed a a crime, not
only a sin but a crime, and will
be punished for that.
This is a very strong message
with a very strong social implication,
but it took some time.
And then the third example and the final
example I'll give and then follow-up with
what lessons we can draw from this
is the example
of,
Salama,
who was, a widow whom the prophet Muhammad
married after her husband died.
And she said to the prophet, this is
remember, the the revelation is ongoing,
right, over this period. So by now,
when she asked this question, there has been,
you know, a certain portion of the Quran
revealed.
And she says to him and and
to understand this question, you have to know
a little bit about Arabic. Arabic, like,
English or like the English we used to
use before we,
were sensitive to the gendered implications of language,
would consider the,
masculine plural to be inclusive of
all of humanity.
So just like we used to say man
for human beings,
if you said if you if a word
in Arabic or you addressed a group and
used that the masculine form, it was
inclusive
of all of both men and women.
Yet just as it's quite
the the,
kind of progressiveness of this question
continues to astonish me because the idea of
gendered language and the social implications of it
are something fairly new to us.
But at that time, Salama herself, she asked
this question. She said,
you know, I listened to the Quran, and
I'm wondering,
is it addressing
is god addressing only men,
or is he addressing women too?
Yeah. What a what an amazing question.
Just how intelligent she was
and really kind of drawing the implications
from the language,
how
bold she was and free she felt to
ask
about
god's word.
And the imp what's implied is her understanding
that,
you know,
somehow, there's something in there that might not
quite be right.
And in response to her question,
this beautiful passage of the Quran was revealed
from the 33rd
Surah or chapter of the Quran.
And I'll read it just
to really understand how how emphatically the Quran
responded to this question.
And it says,
indeed, the Muslim men and the Muslim women,
and the believing men and the believing women,
and the devout men and the devout women,
and the honest men and the honest women,
and the patient men, and the patient women,
and the humble men, and the humble women,
and the men who give charity, and the
women who give charity,
and the men who fast, and the women
who fast,
and the chaste men, and the chaste women,
and the men who remember god frequently,
and the women who also remember,
for them, god has prepared forgiveness and a
magnificent reward.
So the response is quite emphatic.
In every way, God is speaking to you.
Now
the fact that
the Quran
and the Arabic language,
you know, gave the opportunity for this question
is itself
quite fortuitous,
or we could say, you know, part of
god's divine plan. Because
without the question, perhaps we would have been
able to avoid,
you know, the implications.
But here,
by having asked the question, there's a very
explicit response.
And, you know, I have no doubt that
she and other women
might have heard from men in the community
that, look, you're just women.
You know, you don't need to come to
these gatherings.
What are you doing here? Why are you
asking questions?
I mean, I'm imagining these things, but we
also know from reading
the history and the,
the biographical
profiles of the people that that was the
mood. That was the the climate.
Men, this was a patriarchal society in which
it was the elder men
of the tribe who made the decisions.
And,
the women and the younger people, including younger
men, followed
the decisions.
So that was the context, and here's this
this great response.
So in these three examples, we see the
responsiveness of the Quran.
And here, I've I've focused on
the responsiveness
of the Quran to the concerns of women.
I've I've selected these,
verses or these passages to try to keep
the discussion focused,
but, certainly, there are other passages of the
Quran that were revealed in response to those
who felt discriminated against or marginalized
in other ways
because of their poverty
or because of a physical disability
or because of lack of social status. And
we could list,
a dozen or more
of these,
passages of the Quran revealed to this to
people who had expressed a sense
of
not being fully accepted in the community or
not being heard, not having their concerns,
listened to.
So there's a few issues here, and
I don't wanna get too bogged down into
theological
debates, but there are a few things that
I think we need to be aware of,
major issues in classical Islamic theology that that
I think are are necessary to understand in
order to frame the debate.
The first is is this idea you know,
all of these
revelations
were instigated by a question
that arose out of a feeling or a
perception of injustice.
And so the question is,
does that feeling or that experience or perception
of injustice,
should it be given any weight in the
community?
Does that feeling itself
have validity?
If it does, are we
do we see ourselves really responding to that?
Are we being responsive to that feeling, or
do we dismiss it?
What are the mechanisms
for us
hearing that
and recognizing it as valid?
And what's important here is that
I think
I think one of the reasons why we
don't always do
as good of a job as we should
is that very early on in Islamic theology,
there was a debate about
justice
and how one can recognize justice.
And
I'll sort of make it simplistic. There were
basically 2 camps.
Those who,
who took the,
voluntarist view or the view that
justice,
like anything that is good, is whatever god
deems
to be good. So we don't know.
We're human beings. We're we are,
error prone. We are filled with our own
desires.
We are filled with we are always pursuing
our interests.
So we can't possibly
identify
what is justice without god's revelation.
And on the other side, there are those
who said no.
God created human beings with with intelligence
and conscience,
and human beings are able to recognize,
what is justice and what is not.
And that,
you know, it there may be individuals who
cannot do that, but certainly a sound person,
you know, sound mind,
someone who is sincere and has that kind
of,
understands revelation is able to identify,
justice.
This
really
this became such an important issue in in
early Islamic society
for a number of different reasons
that have to do with political conflict,
that have to do with authority,
and it's a very complex situation.
I think what I wanna point out is
that
it's not a purely theological issue,
yet it became a kind of article of
faith of traditionalist
Islam
that,
justice is whatever god defines as justice.
And,
the idea that
that human beings can can somehow call for
that or seek that is something that traditional
Islam really shied away from. They felt that
it was,
one, there was a possibility
of of kind of stepping on god's authority,
especially
when we looked at things like,
salvation.
So the partisans of the of the justice
of god
said things like,
god must
punish sinners
and must reward those who do good because
that's only fair,
you know, kind of like our kids say.
So that sense of justice, god must punish
the sinners. And
the traditionalist
Islam said, Look. You're putting limits on God,
according to your own human sense of justice.
If God wants to,
not punish the sinners, he's absolutely free to
do so. Even though he warns the sinners
and those who do evil and harm,
of punishments that await,
he is he is under no obligation
from you
to punish these people. God is not obliged
to anyone other than himself.
So the concern was was with maintaining, really,
god's grace,
god's ability to dispense grace,
and
the absolute freedom of god,
in,
in being the creator of the universe and
the creator of all definitions.
This made a lot of sense,
but
sometimes the this carried over into issues of
human interest, and I think this is where
sometimes it became problematic.
And some of the one of the minor
or or less popular traditional schools
did say, look. We have to make a
difference between
justice when we're talking about,
eschatological
matters and the afterlife and salvation
and human interests.
Certainly, human beings can identify
things like justice or good and bad when
it comes to harm,
things that harm them and things that further
their benefits.
But this is one of the I would
say there's a kind of caution
or or tiptoeing around this idea of
of,
you know,
identifying
injustice
when we can't root it right in that
revelation.
But when I look at these,
you know,
these people
who were engaged
with the revelation,
I don't see a kind of passivity where
they're just waiting for god to tell them
what is just and what is fair,
I see a confidence in them,
a confidence
that they can identify
some injustices, and a confidence that god will
respond to them.
So unless we simply
want to historicize the Quran as a book
like any other book and put these reports
safely in the past,
if instead we believe that the Quran is
the word of the living god,
then God's responsiveness
to the conscious
conscience
of these individuals
is significant.
Now the other theological
issue that's that's relevant here, although it may
not necessarily seem to be the case, but
it but it re but it really is,
is the doctrine of whether the Quran is
the created word of god or the uncreated
word of god.
Very hot issue
in early Islam
and, throughout Islamic theology,
and it was a very heated debate. What
does it mean for the Quran to be
the created word of god?
Well,
if the Quran is the created word of
god, then there are other
things that god has created,
including individuals,
communities,
our own sense of justice.
Right?
And so those who believe that human beings
absolutely have a have an ability to identify
justice in all things, even in God's salvation,
believe that, well, god created them with this
sense, and so it is it has a
kind of,
an authority
to interpret the Quran through that lens because
the Quran is the created word of god.
Traditional Islam, which denied this, which said the
Quran is the uncreated word of god,
was was very keen again to protect,
first of all, the ability of God to
define himself in whatever way, you know, God
would wants to define God.
But, also, they were very wary
of putting other things on par with God.
If
god is absolutely
different,
you know, from creation, god is the creator
and the rest is creation,
if we relegate the Quran
to the,
level of created things,
then it it really loses so much of
its authority.
However,
for that reason, traditional Islam said the Quran
is the is the word of god,
the uncreated word of god that god talks
about himself in the Quran as speaking. This
is god's speech.
Yes.
The the Arabic language is created
by god. The people who recite it are
created,
But all of this are these are vehicles
for receiving
the uncreated,
eternal
word
of god.
So this idea that that
the Quran is is
ongoing,
is is part of the living word of
god, and I don't wanna say
that
those those
schools
of thought that said that the Quran is
a creative word of god just marginalized the
Quran. Certainly, they continue to have the Quran
as as an important part of their life
and their ritual like all Muslims
and found deep meaning in it. But but
it was this,
you know, concern
to really
keep the Quran
as
god's presence with us
that was so important to them.
But the question is, if the Quran is
God's word, the word of the living God,
then
what is that relationship
between
the individual
listening to the Quran and what it says?
And here, traditional Islam
tried to play this balance between
saying that,
you know,
in order to understand what the Quran is,
you can listen to the Quran, but to
order to understand god's word,
you need to understand
all of the tools of interpretation.
You need to know the language. You need
to know the context of the revelation.
You need to know how to reconcile,
different verses that apparent seem to be an
apparent contradiction.
You need to know about abrogation.
So that means who who understands what god's
saying? It's the scholars.
Certainly, ordinary people can understand the basic message,
but for controversial issues, for issues that have
some kind of impact on the community, for
for
extracting laws
and rules for the community, it really is
the scholars.
And they have so it is tradition
that is the filter through which the Quran
comes.
But here, we have this
strange kind of balance between
a tradition
that is historical
and that is fixed
in many ways and the idea of the
dynamism
of tradition. And Imam al Ghazali, who was
a great
one of the greatest,
theologians
of,
of Islam
who died at the beginning of 12th century,
you know, argued that we really have to
pay attention
to the idea of the Quran speaking to
people.
And he said to this he he he
said that
tradition itself
can become an obstacle.
It can become a veil to understanding,
And he said that
absolutely,
you know, any
individuals don't have the right to interpret the
Quran in the way that contradicts
obvious meanings, understood meanings, the language.
They can't go against that. Yet
by reading the Quran and be open to
the Quran,
being open to God's words,
can they
they can
understand or discern additional meanings.
So he says,
he talks about its wonders and its its,
the the the hidden meanings.
He talks about people who feel that this
is some kind of by allowing yourself to
be open to this, you're allowing some kind
of personal opinion to intervene. He says there's
something very different between personal opinion
and an insight that comes from opening yourself
to,
god.
It's for Marco Rubio.
That that
reference won't be understood 10 years from now
when this is on the Internet. They'll have
to Wikipedia.
Now
it's interesting. Different strains of Islam show,
show a kind of affinity
for this
view, for Al Ghazali's view, and others completely
reject it.
You know, there are those who say, look,
you know, this is just
you're opening you're just
as an individual,
imposing
your view on it, your interest, your desires,
and that the only way to understand the
Quran is through a rigorous,
established
methodology.
Right?
Yet at the same time and I went
what I did is before this talk, I
went and I took one of the
I won't mention the name of the book,
but it's it's a a a very popular
book, you know, printed by one of the,
Islamic printing presses,
that represents the stream of Islam that is
that is,
really emphasize the focus on the text,
and that expresses a kind of, you know,
we have to say an explicit hostility
to certainly Sufism as a tradition,
and looks at that as just sort of
opening the door to, you know, god knows
what, all sorts of
wild interpretations.
But even in that,
I look back, he talks about
2 things,
That when in in in
this is a book about how to read
the Quran or how to understand the Quran.
First of all, he talks about environmental or
contextual
factors that can improve
the believer's presence of mind in reading the
Quran.
So
being being open to
understanding the message of the Quran is very
focused on it being message
oriented that is about action. You take the
message of the Quran and you do an
action.
So he talks about
the the,
importance of choosing a time when when you
aren't distracted, you know, by children running around
or something,
noise in the background,
about choosing a quiet place, about,
really wanting to focus on the meaning and
not have some kind of artificial goal of
reading a certain
amount of the Quran by by a certain
time.
He even talks about sitting in a respectful
way, so about how your whole position and
body and orientation
can help you focus on the meaning. So
there's a there's the,
you know, he uses the word mind here.
But then he also talks about some of
the rituals taught by the prophet Muhammad to
prepare oneself
for reading the Quran, and here he does
talk about the heart.
He talks about making ritual ablution and saying
that it's not obligatory,
although certainly in traditional Islam, it's considered obligatory.
But in the school,
they don't consider there to be proof. But
he says, you should. It's better to make
ritual evolution.
And he says this, it's clear from the
general teachings of Islam that there is a
relationship
between esoteric purity and outward purity.
He says that in reading the Quran,
you must seek guidance from god because you
are not gonna understand the meaning
unless god directs you to the meaning.
He says in a in, following the teachings
of the prophet Muhammad that the believer should
seek refuge from Satan before reading.
And he cites the,
the medieval scholar, Ibn Khayyam,
who said that
one of the benefits of seeking refuge from
Satan is that it in that that this
prepares the heart for receiving the Quran.
So even here, there's a sense that,
you know, there's something in the person
that needs to be open to get a
meaning.
Otherwise otherwise, if it's all
simply based on rules and methodology and applying
the right scholarly principles, well, couldn't anyone do
it, even a nonbeliever,
if it was that if it was simply
a technical
discipline?
So there is something there, yet he's afraid
to allow too much room for that.
Now how does this
what does this tell us, or where does
this bring us today
for the Muslim community today?
Think about in in traditional Islam,
the idea of of how to listen to
the Quran and understand what it means
comes through this process,
usually, most would say, of this methodology
and a discernment and guidance from god.
How do you know
if a meaning as a community, how do
you know if a meaning
is true?
And here, the the,
for the Sunni community,
the doctrine of consensus of the community becomes
important.
But what's interesting about consensus
is it's not a body of scholars sitting
together in a room
discussing an issue
and making a decision.
Instead,
it's all of these individual scholars. Of course,
they're in you know, they some of them
know each other. Some of them are in
conversation of each other. But each one of
them who is qualified
coming to a conclusion
on an issue
of law or dogma,
and the consensus
is determined after the fact, looking backwards and
saying, well, all of those,
the scholars
of that generation or the companions of the
of the prophet Mohammed or those who followed
them in the next generation,
all of them were in agreement on this
issue.
So they each are coming to this, and
then we look back and we say, well,
this forms a consensus.
Now
traditional
Islamic schools tried to continue
claiming consensus over the centuries, but it was
constantly undermined,
on
many sides by other schools of thought who
said, look.
You know, you're making all sorts of claims
for consensus without
without being able to prove it. I mean,
once Islam expanded beyond the city of Medina,
how are you gonna possibly prove that all
of the scholars and our all of what
they call Dar al Islam, the Islamic territories,
have have,
you know, agreed or approved of something
all the way to, you know, from Timbuktu,
which we know is a great center of
learning,
right, to to Indonesia,
to Central Asia.
How can you possibly know? So it was
constantly undermined.
And,
those,
scholars who who in the modern period really
tried to,
you know, attacked many of the traditional of
the mechanisms of traditional Islam, the mechanisms of
authority,
and we're trying to look at at Islamic
law in a new way and even Islamic
theology sometimes in a new way,
they
they really pushed aside the doctrine of consensus.
It doesn't mean that it's still not claimed,
at least historically,
but we see that it's not a mechanism
that is really effective now.
Instead, what we have, it
are
are bodies,
groups,
boards,
communities,
fatwa councils,
fatwa is a legal judgment,
and this is something very different.
Who is now
deciding what the Quran is saying to us
today. It's a completely different process.
And so my question is this,
as we finish up.
If it is the community
that is understanding the meaning of the Quran,
if god is speaking to us as a
community,
then how do we as a community prepare
to listen to god? If an individual
needs to take this preparation of purity
and setting the context
for their
not only their mind, but their heart,
how does the community
set the proper context?
How does a community set a proper intention?
Because when the individual reads in the Quran,
their intention should be to be guided by
god,
not to look into the text to find
an answer that they've already decided
upon.
So how does the community prepare a proper
intention?
How does a community keep Satan away?
And I think this is a real challenge,
and I think it's why there's actually some
very bad decision making in our community.
The fact is there are dynamics to group
decision making that can cloud thinking,
that can reinforce
biases,
that when we look whether it's at a
mosque community or one of these global
communities of scholars, there's a problem.
And so
we see when I look at them and
I look at some of the decisions that
I think are the most
problematic
and the most conflicting with justice,
and I see people,
you know, marginalized
people
in my community
saying this is unjust,
I see that these councils and associations,
they miss
they haven't taken this
message from the Quran,
which is its methodology,
the responsiveness
to the concerns of the marginalized.
They miss the listening part.
1st,
I have I have
just recently
sat with a a group of international scholars
on a major justice issue,
and they set the agenda and brought in
all these scholars and papers.
And I said to them,
how can we be talking about this group
of people
when they aren't in the room and you
haven't even heard of them? They said, well,
after we finish making our decision, we'll tell
them what we decided.
But you haven't listened
to them.
I didn't get my way.
They didn't you know? They went on and
dug through the texts and
had all sorts of and there were some
really good things they said. But how could
they go about this without even listening
to the people
who we were talking about?
What about integrity if we're
what about integrity? If we're concerned as individuals
about integrate our own integrity,
whether we have a conflict of interest, whether
we're trying to impose our interests on the
Quran, what about these councils? What about these
bodies?
Do they
screen themselves for conflicts of interest? Do they
even recognize
their own conflicts of interest?
You know, is it a conflict of interest
if you're talking about
an issue related,
to,
religious minorities in Muslim countries
and you only have Muslim scholars
who are in positions of authority appointed by
the government talking about that?
You know? How do we purify our intention
to really be open
to listening to God and to take this
Quranic methodology
of responding to concerns?
So
what is this methodology
in sum
that I think is a major part
of the Quranic message that is sometimes,
you know,
not given a not enough heed.
This responsiveness,
it's listening to the concerns,
to the cries and feelings of injustice,
not rushing to grab proof text,
but taking time, pause, and take time to
let the concerns sit with you.
Sometimes, god took time to respond,
not because
god needed time to think about it, of
course not,
But because perhaps we needed some time to
learn
and to think about it.
3rd, that we need to engage in acts
of communal
purification,
that if we're making major decisions, we need
to to
take extra efforts
to purify ourselves
through engagement
with the marginalized, which is one of the
the best ways for purification of intention,
including other ways, fasting and charity,
and to engage ourselves for conflicts of interest.
There's there's no way to avoid it if
if there are,
organizational
and collective,
corporate interests of anybody,
whether that is a group of of, you
know, scholars sitting on a federal council or
a group of people on a board.
There are certain corporate interests.
And no matter how sincere people are, they
have to be able to recognize that that
dynamic is there
and to really seek a way to overcome
that and to allow themselves
really to be open
to the responsiveness of god to this situation
rather than simply imposing
their own interests,
upon the upon the Quran and their interpretation.
With this, I think if we if we
pay more attention to this, we will be
a more successful community. It's not that
that we are failing.
There's many,
you know, wonderful things that are going on
in the Muslim community, but I believe we
could do better in this area.
With that, I'll conclude. Thank you for your
attention.
Alright. I know everyone can't stay for discussion,
so
if you have a class or some other
obligation, please feel free
to excuse yourself.
Otherwise, we'll be here for about 30 minutes
for,
some discussion question and answer.
And,
I see there's some students who came from
some classes, and I hope that, especially,
some of the students will,
will ask some questions or make some comments
based on,
some of the things they might have learned
or thought about coming into this talk.
Yes.
And I'll repeat the questions so.
Sure.
Sharia or Sharia
literally means the path to the water. Oh,
yes. The question is,
the questioner
said that when we hear about Sharia law,
or we hear a lot about Sharia law,
but she's getting the impression from my talk
that there may be,
different views on that depending on different countries
or regions.
And let me say,
yes.
Sharia itself literally means the path to the
water. It is the guidance that god has
given us,
to get to that life giving,
you know,
water of of,
being close to God.
Waters needed for life. So we follow that
path to try to get
close to god and and in his shelter
and grace and guidance.
Now
sharia is something that we try
to understand, that we try to attain.
How do we know what it is?
It it's all of the norms. It's everything
from,
the fact that when you greet a person
that you should smile,
and that you should
when when someone talks to you, that you
should turn your face to them and not
sort of have them talk to the side
of your head while you're busy doing something.
These are all part of Sharia, which come
from the prophet Muhammad's
own practice and teachings.
So the two main sources of Sharia
are the Quran and are the practices of
the prophet Muhammad.
Sharia includes
includes all different kinds of norms, how we
pray, what kind of,
meat is lawful for us to eat,
or not,
marriage and divorce, all of these different kinds
of of laws and rules and etiquette and
manner and practices. It just means sacred norms.
These are
these are all understood
from reading the Quran.
They're understood
from trying to understand the teachings of the
prophet Muhammad.
And because of this, the Sharia,
the understandings of the Sharia are very diverse.
You know, what do we what do we
get from these passages?
What do we understand? Let's go back to
this example that I gave at the beginning,
this woman, Khaula, and what her husband said
to her. And as I said, hey. We
don't have that practice anymore. Okay. We forget
should we forget about it?
But what I what I hear from that
that passage is that
is that when a woman
is complaining
to a leader of the community
about
an injustice with her husband,
that she needs to be heard
and that god hears her
and that there needs to be a response.
Now
that's how I understand that,
and I would say there's more to it.
The fact that it would be that when
a woman like Hawa, after being married for
many years and she gets older and maybe
she's not as attractive anymore, there's, you know,
younger, more attractive women,
that
perhaps there's even an element of sinfulness
in,
neglecting her
and pursuing a younger woman.
Now there are those who would
who would say,
that my interpretation is incorrect,
that I'm imposing a view on or or
taking something out of it that's not necessarily
true, that a man,
you know, a man has a right, if
he's no longer attracted to his wife, to,
divorce her
and,
you know, compensate her, pay her alimony, and
and find someone who is happier with.
Not denying
that, but I'm saying there's something else there.
And so how we understand the Quran, what
the Quran is saying to us now
and and in all of our times is
gonna be
interpreted differently. And, certainly, with the teachings of
the prophet Mohammed, there's even more of a
challenge because he was a human being in
a historical
context,
in a very,
specific kind of culture,
a culture that was,
misogynistic,
that was tribal.
And so some of his responses to to
situations,
you know, how
some
some people would say that to be a
good Muslim, to follow the Sharia means that
we imitate the prophet Mohammed and how he
responded to those situations,
Almost like reenacting a historical drama. You know,
we basically put on the costume that he
had and we
we replay his actions.
Others would say, no. Following him is looking
at
what are the values and principles that he
brought to a situation,
what were his objectives
in responding to a situation, and how do
we achieve those objectives? And it may be
doing things by in a very different way
than he did because we don't live in
this, you know, tribal 7th century,
context.
You can have very different opinions, and and
I will claim that my opinion is Sharia
is part of the Sharia, and someone else
will,
will claim that theirs is no the true
Sharia.
So, yes, there are there are different interpretations.
And I think sometimes what what what confuses
us is that these
you know, many of these militant groups, like
the people who attacked
in Mali recently,
and and destroyed,
graveyards and broke music and all these things,
they claimed that they were there to impose
Sharia.
So they have this very narrow sense,
of Sharia, a Sharia that
is just a replication of,
of certain ways that people did things in
the past or even,
particular you know, cherry picking certain kinds of
of laws and regulations.
Well, you know, I heard I heard a
number of people discuss that situation. Some of
them said, well, the people in Mali, they're
not you know, they don't want that. They're
secular.
I think that's a real mischaracterization.
I don't think they're secular at all.
You do not have
333
tombs of saints if you're secular.
You don't have this vigorous tradition of going
visiting them and praying
if you're secular.
They are religious, but their understanding of the
sharia is very different.
And so it's not Sharia versus not, but
who has the right to,
what people are saying about it.
Yes?
Well, she wasn't the she wasn't told to
take her injustice to god. The prophet Mohammed
told her that she okay. The question was,
if if
revelation comes through prophets,
then,
referring to the
the story that I told about Paula,
the questioner
understood that to say that that she had
to take her complaint to god, but how
would she get a response from god?
The what what happened is that she
she came to the prophet Muhammad. He said,
I haven't received a revelation,
and so
she was praying,
You know? She was praying and asking God
to for for a way to get out
of that. Everyone can pray. Everyone can speak
to God.
We have to pray,
and we ask God to relieve us of
the situation and to guide us and to
open a way, you know, out of our
situation. So she was praying. She was speaking
to God and that's why the Quranic passage
says she took her complaint to God.
But the revelation then comes through the prophet
for the benefit of everyone.
So rather than her, for example, saying, well,
God told me,
the prophets,
not only the prophet Muhammad, but the prophets
before him, according to Islamic theology,
have this special,
are chosen by God to receive revelation and
then convey it to the community.
Yes?
The the so the follow-up question is, but
how do what do people do now? Because
people can't take their complaint to the prophet
Mohammed. He's not here.
So where did they go? Again
so, again, they appeal to god, but what
we had this is why the Quran is
so important. The Quran is with us, and
this is why it needs to be understood
and engaged with in a way that does
respond to our concerns.
Otherwise
otherwise, we would need another revelation.
Otherwise, we would need another prophet. So it
needs the Quran
needs
to be
responsive. We need to understand the Quran is
responsive.
And that's,
an,
you know, a key part of understanding it
as a as as a revelation that is
preserved
for us for all time. So it really
it can be interpreted in a way that
isn't responsive, and this is, you know, what
I'm saying that, unfortunately,
many people are left hanging
because of
a certain approach to interpretation or engagement with
the Quran
that really is not responsive.
Yes. There's a student up here. Yes. Yes.
Right.
The the question is,
that,
I talked about consensus being a, a key
mechanism
of,
interpretation and establishing an
authoritative interpretation
in the Sunni community.
The question is, what about the Shiite community
and and the,
authority that is given to to the imams?
The the major
the the really key distinction
between Sunni and and Shiite Muslims,
the reason why these are
the the this is the major theological
division among among Muslims, and they're all Muslims.
You know, Sunnis are Muslims and Shiites are
Muslims.
And and we have the same Quran, and
we believe in the finality of the prophet
Mohammed. And,
but
the the Shiite solution to authority and certainty
is that
after the prophet Muhammad,
his descendants through a certain line who they
who they called imams,
were the authoritative
interpreters of the Quran and that their interpretation
was infallible.
And,
in the, in the Ismaili tradition as it
developed, it's it's even more where the where
the living imam,
and now I think the the Isma'ilis are
on, I think, their 49th imam, who we
know as the Al Hakan,
that he that he really is that voice
that speaks
that that articulates what the Quran says. So
there's a there's a,
there's a great deal of authority
that rests within the,
within the imam, especially in the Ismaili tradition.
That is probably where the most authority and
where the understanding that that this person
really is
the the
the,
the one who
is bringing god's responsiveness
to the community, not in a not not
as a prophet,
but as the one who really authoritatively
understands that and can can respond to issues
and can even respond in ways that
override, say say,
even ritual law that other Sunnis and Shiites
believe it's obligatory
to follow.
And it and it is that that appeal
to that certainty
and to the fact that you really are
listening to the definitive interpreter
of of of what god's saying
that,
that
that distinguishes the Shiite tradition.
The Sunni community is much messier.
It's much more about dialogue and discussion and
trying to,
claim a consensus after the fact. None of
this is is, you know, relates to main
pillars of doctrine. But when it comes to
laws and practices,
there is is where there's,
you know, the kind of creative
chaos, of the Sunni community comes in place.
And this is why
traditional what we would call traditional Islam did
develop and held sway for many centuries is,
you know, you need to you need to
ordinary people wanna have institutions that they can
rely on. They wanna have people that they've
you know, they wanna know they can turn
to someone and feel confidence.
And that's why ordinary people,
were taught in Sunnissam that they, you know
look. This is the school that we follow,
so you follow these scholars and they will
interpret it for you. Not one person, but
that they're following a methodology. These are righteous
people that are following a methodology
that has been established and agreed upon, so
you could depend on this being a reliable
opinion.
Not infallible
most of the time, but at least reliable.
So there's that you know, there's always that
in the Sunni tradition, there's always that kind
of tension between
trying to create some kind of,
stability,
at the same time leaving the system open.
Yes?
Okay.
I'm gonna
the question is, to paraphrase,
how does a non Muslim access the Quran
if for Muslims,
there's a certain
methodology
that's employed
as well as a,
kind of, you know, spiritual state of mind?
Well, I think there's you know, that it's
such a great question, and I think there's
many different possibilities
for that, different ways to answer that.
Of course,
there are non Muslim scholars of the Quran
who look at it,
historically
to understand,
the kind of issues that it's addressing in
its historical context
and who do some research into Arabic language
and history and text.
And all of those things
can be very useful, you know, even to
Muslims,
if it's just historical linguistic information.
You know, there are some people obviously who
approach it with a,
you know, a partisan agenda or trying to
you know, from a from a position of,
either from a religious or political position trying
to, you know, prove that Muslims are wrong
or or something like that. But that's different
than an academic approach
that takes,
you know, proven methods of looking at historical
texts and,
language.
So those things can be useful.
There are there are, of course, non Muslim
scholars
who really wanna understand how how Muslims engage
with the Quran. They're more interested in the
religious experience,
and what it means for Muslims to have
the Quran in their life, and many of
them have provided great insights.
I think of people like Michael Sells, who's
at the University of Chicago,
many others who have a very sensitive reading
of the Quran and how Muslims understand the
Quran.
But then I also have friends who are
not Muslim, who are who are sincere believers,
who,
you know, who are who who pray and
are seeking god's guidance,
and
most of them aren't quite sure theologically
what to do with the Quran,
but
at the same time,
find
that, it moves them sometimes.
And,
it may be listening to it being recited.
It may be,
reading certain passages that resonate with them.
So there's different ways that non Muslims can
approach the Quran. I would say there's a
few
important necessary conditions to really get anything out
of it. 1, of course, is not to
come
come to the Quran with prejudice.
2nd is to under is to not always
compare the Quran to the bible or what
you know
because it needs to be understood on its
own terms, and the structure of the Quran
is very different than the bible. It's a
different kind of scripture. It's a different kind
of book. So to know something about it,
how it's organized, why it's organized the way
it is, is important.
And then I I would say one of
the most important things is to understand that
the Quran simultaneously
contain addresses
the situation of the people at its time
and,
you know, has has these broader principles.
And so when the Quran is read,
it's important not to
it's important to understand that if different groups
or communities are being identified,
not to
be anachronistic
and identify those communities with, say, living communities
today.
So, for example, many people who read the
Quran in English say, oh, look. The Quran
talks about
disbelievers and it's so negative and hostile towards
non Muslims.
When, in fact, when the Quran talks about
the disbelievers,
it's almost always talking specifically about that
community
in Mecca that was hostile to the Muslims
that, attacked them, that persecuted them, drove them
out, you know, made martyrs of many of
the earlier followers of Islam, and was engaged
in warfare.
So the Quran addresses situations of warfare with
those people and talks about them as the
disbelievers,
that doesn't mean
all non Muslims.
And it doesn't even mean those people weren't
even what the Quran calls the people of
the book, Christians and Jews.
They were,
you know,
polytheists or, you know, whatever. I mean, not
that it was their polytheism, but it was
their,
hostility.
So I think that's important to know to
understand
that,
that the Quran is
you you might be reading the Quran at
one part. You're you're reading something that is,
a benediction,
a prayer, a narrative
about past people,
guidance,
and then suddenly, you'll be in a passage
that talks about,
you know, this this situation or incident that's
being addressed at that time.
Doesn't mean that we can't take lessons from
it, again. Otherwise, it's just a historical document.
But not not to be anachronistic
and look at the the people that are
being,
discussed then as being identical with the people
now.
I mean, we're not even those
people,
so we have to be careful
about that.
One of the things that that you said
that I loved is an image that I
will take away with me is these scholars
getting together
and
to find the texts that are going to
be definitive for some question. And and what
you said is the importance before doing that
of listening.
And I think that's that's something that I
certainly,
appreciate just how important that is,
and and how much I have enjoyed listening
to you over the last 90 minutes. So
thank you so much. Thank you, Simon. Thank
you. Thank you very much.