Ingrid Mattson – Let’s Get Real The Body as the Locus of Ethical Action

Ingrid Mattson
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The speakers discuss the importance of transphobic and against- idealistic behavior in achieving society. They emphasize the need for a more realistic approach to the topic, including the body's weight and its potential for suffering. The conversation also touches on the challenges of modern society, including the lack of access to clean water, the use of deadly chemicals, and the need for a strong personal connection to one's identity. They emphasize the importance of narrations and preaching a moral vision, identifying and acknowledging the physical and social impacts of people with a thing they have to offer, and returning to a sense of personal and community.

AI: Summary ©

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			I'm very concerned
		
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			for how
		
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			people in my community feel these days. What
		
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			I
		
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			see, and what I see as a lot
		
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			of trauma,
		
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			disappointment,
		
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			disconnection,
		
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			and trying to understand
		
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			how
		
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			how
		
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			Muslims can once again
		
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			center themselves
		
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			and to understand,
		
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			what they're supposed to do in this very
		
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			complicated
		
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			world in which we live.
		
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			I see confusion about so many things about
		
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			political
		
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			ethics and decisions.
		
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			In the medical field, I've been working on
		
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			bioethics
		
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			in the area of gender
		
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			and rights,
		
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			in the area of the environment,
		
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			and people who are marginalized and displaced
		
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			all over.
		
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			And one of the things that I noticed
		
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			as I I've been contemplating these areas and
		
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			thinking about them,
		
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			again and again is the importance
		
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			and the place of the body.
		
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			And so, I'm trying to look tonight really
		
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			at the body as the place
		
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			that we need to spend some time
		
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			focusing on and understanding
		
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			the importance of being embodied
		
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			people
		
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			and what that means in Islam.
		
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			I think of this
		
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			one of the reasons why I've thought about
		
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			this is,
		
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			also
		
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			my confusion about so many actions where I
		
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			see so called idealistic
		
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			people
		
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			who engage in horrendous
		
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			actions,
		
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			people who have high ideals
		
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			engaging in real harm against real people.
		
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			And this is
		
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			the reason why I say let's get real
		
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			because I think we need to,
		
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			argue for a recommitment
		
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			to the
		
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			primacy of the embodied person.
		
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			To be against idealism
		
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			in the philosophical sense, not in the common
		
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			sense,
		
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			or common usage sense of the term of
		
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			trying to achieve something better or believing that
		
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			society can be better than it has been.
		
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			We need to have we need to be
		
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			idealistic in the sense of wanting something better
		
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			for ourselves and for others.
		
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			A community
		
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			and an individual should have principles and values
		
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			as well as a vision
		
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			of what it would like to achieve.
		
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			To be against idealism is also not to
		
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			be against normativity.
		
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			It is instead
		
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			to be against a utopian vision,
		
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			an ideal society in the sense,
		
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			of,
		
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			of
		
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			looking at things and issues and people
		
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			as
		
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			a kind of platonic
		
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			essentialized
		
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			thing
		
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			rather than actual,
		
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			subjects in and of themselves.
		
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			Selves. I noticed that it is the most
		
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			idealistic people in the sense who become the
		
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			most bitterly disappointed
		
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			in human institutions
		
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			because people are not ideas.
		
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			They are bodies in space and time.
		
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			It's these people who also can become the
		
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			most disappointed in themselves
		
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			and
		
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			lead to,
		
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			lead to a situation where they are,
		
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			dissociate
		
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			from their own selves and their own visceral
		
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			selves, their bodies leading to,
		
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			destruction of themselves.
		
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			We've seen in the last few days in
		
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			the news this conference
		
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			on
		
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			violent what's it called? Countering violent extremism.
		
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			And I see a lot of talk about
		
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			ideas.
		
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			It is not my sense from talking with
		
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			some people who have been in engaged
		
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			in this
		
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			caught up by or whose friends have been
		
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			caught up by
		
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			these actions that it is necessarily
		
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			just about ideas.
		
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			Why is it that converts and those who
		
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			are newly religious,
		
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			Muslims who are newly religious, you know, the
		
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			criminals,
		
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			the gangsters,
		
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			the,
		
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			thugs, or all the all the derogatory words
		
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			that have been used with respect
		
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			to people who had tough lives and and
		
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			engaged in some kind
		
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			of compensatory
		
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			behavior,
		
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			criminal behavior,
		
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			why is it that they're so vulnerable,
		
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			to this kind of these kind of movements
		
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			and I believe it has a great deal
		
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			to do with the hatred
		
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			of,
		
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			the memory
		
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			that is carried within their body bodies of
		
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			what they have done and what has been
		
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			done to them?
		
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			Why does someone
		
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			want to go
		
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			to a place where there's a very strong
		
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			risk
		
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			of
		
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			their body being destroyed?
		
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			And I heard a story,
		
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			about a young man from my students, a
		
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			young man who, in fact, did this, who
		
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			left Canada and went
		
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			to fight and was killed.
		
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			And what I was told is that he
		
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			was one of the guys, one of the
		
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			teenagers, Muslim teenagers used to go out and
		
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			used to party
		
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			until
		
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			a bunch of them decided, you know what?
		
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			We've probably done enough of this. We should
		
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			probably get a little bit religious, and they
		
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			all got a little bit religious. Not you
		
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			know, they still were not perfect, but they
		
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			said let's stop some of the things. Let's
		
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			stop drinking alcohol
		
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			and
		
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			let's stop partying with women.
		
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			And he couldn't.
		
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			My student said this guy couldn't and he
		
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			felt so disgusted by himself
		
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			that he,
		
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			felt the only way
		
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			that he could stop
		
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			from
		
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			being condemned to hellfire for his sins
		
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			was to go and put himself in that
		
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			place.
		
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			So I want us really to think about
		
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			what that
		
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			what this means,
		
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			to be an embodied person
		
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			and what it compels us to do
		
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			and how that relates to our ethics.
		
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			Now, some may ask don't Muslims already focus
		
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			too much on the body,
		
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			you know, with their concerns about sexuality and
		
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			hijab and beards and these kind of things.
		
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			I think there is a selective focus and
		
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			attention.
		
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			It's not that I see any of that
		
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			as superficial or unnecessary
		
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			and it is one of the strengths of
		
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			the Islamic legal tradition
		
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			that importance is given to certain desires,
		
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			but it is selective,
		
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			and certainly there is a privileging of certain
		
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			bodies.
		
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			I mean, if we look and I don't
		
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			have to with Keisha Ady in the audience
		
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			who's an expert in this, I should bring
		
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			her up to talk about
		
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			what I would call the jurisprudential
		
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			gymnastics
		
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			that are done to accommodate the sexual taste
		
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			preferences and desires of privileged
		
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			heterosexual
		
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			men in in our tradition and continues until
		
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			today. We all know about the fatwas
		
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			that give permission for so called vacation marriages,
		
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			men marrying with the intention to divorce,
		
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			even though temporary marriage isn't allowed, but he
		
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			wants citizenship or to have a sexual outlet,
		
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			taking,
		
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			a second wife in secret, not telling his
		
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			first wife.
		
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			So if we look at all of the
		
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			accommodations made
		
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			for the sake of a realistic view
		
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			of the needs,
		
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			of a certain kind of body and contrast
		
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			that with the refusal
		
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			to find any way to accommodate
		
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			or ease the real suffering
		
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			suffering of many other categories of people,
		
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			single women,
		
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			migrant workers who cannot
		
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			have any of their family with them,
		
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			homosexual,
		
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			Muslims.
		
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			We see that there is a a great
		
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			selectivity. And this isn't just about men, but
		
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			we could also look at elite women
		
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			who are assured that they have no obligation
		
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			to perform the tiring and boring
		
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			housework, cooking, or even taking care of children,
		
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			but then the question is who does the
		
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			work?
		
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			Non elite women whose bodies are exposed and
		
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			overworked and separated from the embraces of their
		
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			children and their husbands.
		
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			So a pragmatic or realistic
		
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			approach is taken in considering the needs and
		
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			bodies of the privilege, but not of
		
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			so many others.
		
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			So we have to
		
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			be very honest about the narratives
		
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			we tell of ourselves. We talk about how
		
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			the media frames news, how the misdeeds of
		
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			some people
		
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			receive a great deal of attention, while others
		
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			are ignored,
		
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			how some narratives are used to, elicit sympathy
		
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			towards certain human lives and certain human needs
		
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			and not others, the whole is homophobic discourse.
		
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			But we have,
		
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			also,
		
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			selective narratives and dehumanization
		
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			that can occur within our communities and we
		
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			need to be aware of that
		
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			and begin to,
		
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			take
		
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			a more,
		
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			well, we'll talk about how we get those
		
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			other narratives in and it isn't by asking
		
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			other people to remember us.
		
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			That's for sure, I could preempt that.
		
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			But, let's look back,
		
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			before we enter into that, really look at
		
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			this issue of the body and why it
		
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			is so important and why it's not some
		
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			kind of,
		
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			just,
		
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			we're talking about it because it's some kind
		
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			of feminist trope or or,
		
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			some new
		
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			aspect that we're introducing into Islamic thought. Not
		
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			that there would be anything wrong with that
		
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			whatsoever.
		
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			But this is,
		
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			at the heart of what it means to
		
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			be a person in Islam.
		
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			We can begin with this parable that the
		
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			Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, told to
		
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			his companions.
		
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			He said, There was a man who had
		
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			never done a pious deed in his life,
		
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			so he said to his children, When I
		
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			die,
		
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			burn me to ashes and divide the ashes
		
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			into 2 parts.
		
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			Scatter one part on the land and the
		
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			other in the ocean.
		
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			By God, if my Lord gets a hold
		
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			of this body, he will punish it like
		
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			never before.
		
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			When the man died, his children obeyed his
		
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			instructions, but God commanded the land to gather
		
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			his ashes.
		
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			So the land collected every particle of his
		
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			ashes from itself.
		
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			Then God commanded the ocean and it too
		
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			gathered all the particles even from its depths.
		
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			Then, God asked him, why did you do
		
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			that? And he said,
		
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			my Lord out of fear of you.
		
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			So God
		
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			forgave him. Now, Muslim preachers and theologians derive
		
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			a number of lessons from this parable. The
		
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			most important of which is that the mercy
		
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			of god is without limit.
		
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			God is unconstrained
		
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			by the human conception of justice and judgment,
		
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			including a person's self assessment of being utterly
		
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			worthless.
		
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			Some theologians would suggest that the man was
		
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			forgiven for his evil actions
		
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			because although he was
		
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			a a a consistent sinner,
		
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			he did not disbelieve in God. Indeed,
		
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			he took extensive action
		
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			to disappear precisely because he recognized God's authority
		
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			to judge and punish him.
		
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			The man's failure to act morally was less
		
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			important
		
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			than his acknowledgement of God
		
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			and God's divinely established moral order.
		
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			I think actually, Doctor. Jackson has a beautiful
		
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			short article.
		
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			What's it called?
		
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			About about the, about the man who's punished
		
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			for for for alcohol, drinking alcohol.
		
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			I forgot. You forgot the article.
		
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			Beautiful.
		
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			And I I think there's a there's a
		
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			similar message here.
		
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			So as we
		
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			consider,
		
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			you know, this issue,
		
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			for our purposes, I would like to draw
		
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			attention here beyond mercy, beyond love of God,
		
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			to
		
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			the centrality of the body in this parable.
		
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27
			The man sees his body as the locus
		
00:12:27 --> 00:12:28
			of God's judgment,
		
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30
			which he wishes to escape.
		
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33
			Hence, his desperate strategy to make his body
		
00:12:33 --> 00:12:34
			disappear after
		
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38
			death. God, of course, is fully capable of
		
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41
			reconstituting any part of his creation no matter
		
00:12:41 --> 00:12:42
			how dissipated it is.
		
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45
			But it's only upon the reconstruction
		
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			and reanimation of the body that the man
		
00:12:49 --> 00:12:50
			comes back into existence.
		
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			The person is there when the body is
		
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			there, capable of engaging in an audience with
		
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			god.
		
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			The person is present when the body is
		
00:12:59 --> 00:13:00
			present.
		
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04
			The Quran describes in vivid terms the bodily
		
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06
			and emotional pleasures of heaven and the torments
		
00:13:06 --> 00:13:07
			of *.
		
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			Now, whether it's possible for a person to
		
00:13:10 --> 00:13:13
			conceive of himself or herself as existing
		
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17
			as a disembodied spirit, the Quran leaves no
		
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19
			doubt that the person who experiences the afterlife
		
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			is the same man or woman one identifies
		
00:13:23 --> 00:13:24
			as self today.
		
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28
			Judgment, however, must proceed the ultimate reward or
		
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31
			punishment, and at this juncture, the Quran describes
		
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33
			people having a kind of dissociative experience,
		
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42
			can to the person's action.
		
00:13:44 --> 00:13:45
			God says, on that day, we shall set
		
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47
			a seal on their mouths and make their
		
00:13:47 --> 00:13:48
			hands
		
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			speak to us, and their feet will bear
		
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52
			witness to what they have done.
		
00:13:54 --> 00:13:55
			In light of such passages,
		
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			perhaps, we could see the man in the
		
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00
			parable who wanted his body burned and ashes
		
00:14:00 --> 00:14:00
			scattered.
		
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03
			To have been hoping, not only to avoid
		
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05
			the bodily punishments of the afterlife,
		
00:14:07 --> 00:14:09
			he also wanted to destroy the evidence.
		
00:14:15 --> 00:14:16
			Here, we might see another moral of the
		
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19
			story after the first lesson, which is that
		
00:14:19 --> 00:14:20
			God will ultimately be,
		
00:14:21 --> 00:14:23
			that a person will ultimately be judged by
		
00:14:23 --> 00:14:26
			an external subject that is God, and it
		
00:14:26 --> 00:14:27
			is God's judgment
		
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29
			that is supreme not the person's.
		
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32
			And the second lesson that after his judgment,
		
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34
			God's mercy will prevail.
		
00:14:35 --> 00:14:36
			But what it is further implied in the
		
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			story is the message that there is no
		
00:14:38 --> 00:14:41
			escape from the body until that time.
		
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44
			In life and until the final judgment, there
		
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47
			is no flight from a body that constantly
		
00:14:47 --> 00:14:49
			reminds a person of what it has done
		
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51
			and what has been done to it.
		
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53
			The body is the reality from which can
		
00:14:54 --> 00:14:55
			one cannot dissociate,
		
00:14:56 --> 00:14:57
			at least not for long.
		
00:14:59 --> 00:15:00
			The major scholars of Islam
		
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03
			have all have agreed that belief in the
		
00:15:03 --> 00:15:05
			resurrection of the dead is a necessary part
		
00:15:05 --> 00:15:05
			of faith.
		
00:15:07 --> 00:15:07
			For example,
		
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11
			the 12th century theologian, Al Ghazali argued,
		
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14
			along with others, that philosophers such such as
		
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17
			al Farabi and Ibn Sina, who adopted a
		
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19
			platonic mind body dualism
		
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22
			and argued that only the soul survived after
		
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25
			death should be considered unbelievers.
		
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29
			Now, while they argued against this, at the
		
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31
			same time, the majority of dogmatic scholars asserted
		
00:15:32 --> 00:15:34
			that the nafs is a soul that can
		
00:15:34 --> 00:15:35
			separate from the body.
		
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39
			Now here I can't get into a long,
		
00:15:40 --> 00:15:41
			very complicated
		
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43
			history of discussions
		
00:15:43 --> 00:15:45
			about the difference or is there a difference
		
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47
			between the soul and the spirit, the
		
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51
			and what they are. But let's say, in
		
00:15:51 --> 00:15:52
			a book like,
		
00:15:52 --> 00:15:53
			Ibn Qayyim's
		
00:15:54 --> 00:15:55
			Kitab Arruh,
		
00:15:55 --> 00:15:56
			he
		
00:15:57 --> 00:15:58
			mostly conflates,
		
00:15:59 --> 00:16:00
			the two terms.
		
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03
			As for the Quran, the Quran does not
		
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06
			define naf so much as refer to it
		
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08
			and thus remains ambiguous and open to a
		
00:16:08 --> 00:16:09
			range of interpretations.
		
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12
			And when it comes to the state of
		
00:16:12 --> 00:16:12
			the person
		
00:16:13 --> 00:16:13
			after
		
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16
			death, but before the resurrection,
		
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20
			the Quran displays a noticeable lack of interest.
		
00:16:24 --> 00:16:25
			Re embodiment of the person
		
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28
			since it is this which makes the divine
		
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30
			judgment of persons possible.
		
00:16:31 --> 00:16:34
			Islamic discourse outside of the Quran in contrast
		
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37
			is rich with discussions of the state of
		
00:16:37 --> 00:16:38
			the pre resurrected dead.
		
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42
			The literature reflects a deep level of concern
		
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44
			about this liminal state.
		
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48
			A concern that's widely displayed across Islamic cultures
		
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51
			through the attention paid to burial rituals as
		
00:16:51 --> 00:16:52
			well as the contentious debate
		
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56
			over visitation practices and the intercession of the
		
00:16:56 --> 00:16:57
			saintly dead.
		
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01
			And if you want to really see, how
		
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04
			different forms of knowledge,
		
00:17:06 --> 00:17:06
			are introduced
		
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10
			into Islamic discourse in a very interesting way,
		
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13
			I would suggest reading an an edited, there's
		
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14
			it's not easy, there are no
		
00:17:15 --> 00:17:16
			good translations of Kitab Barukh by Ibn Khayyim.
		
00:17:16 --> 00:17:17
			But even in the faulty ones, you see
		
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19
			that he he suddenly allows for a wide,
		
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24
			you see that he he suddenly allows for
		
00:17:24 --> 00:17:25
			a wide
		
00:17:25 --> 00:17:26
			range of,
		
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31
			of sources of knowledge he would otherwise dismiss.
		
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33
			So, for example, the fact that people see
		
00:17:34 --> 00:17:35
			spirits after death.
		
00:17:37 --> 00:17:38
			He says there's no evidence
		
00:17:48 --> 00:17:48
			Quran
		
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51
			So this kind of this kind of liberal,
		
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53
			letting in, in order,
		
00:17:54 --> 00:17:55
			in order to
		
00:17:56 --> 00:17:57
			tell a good
		
00:17:57 --> 00:17:58
			tell a good
		
00:17:58 --> 00:18:01
			story or to bring a good moral to
		
00:18:01 --> 00:18:02
			people,
		
00:18:03 --> 00:18:04
			is quite clear.
		
00:18:05 --> 00:18:07
			So there's no doubt that,
		
00:18:07 --> 00:18:08
			a certain dualism
		
00:18:09 --> 00:18:10
			of body and soul dominates
		
00:18:11 --> 00:18:12
			most Islamic discourses.
		
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15
			This is not a dualism, however,
		
00:18:16 --> 00:18:17
			that degrades the body.
		
00:18:19 --> 00:18:20
			It is,
		
00:18:20 --> 00:18:21
			even
		
00:18:22 --> 00:18:23
			even in,
		
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25
			Sufi discourses, that's the case.
		
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30
			Valer Hoffmann says, as for the Quran itself,
		
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32
			it does not speak of a body spirit
		
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34
			or body soul dichotomy as the problem behind
		
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36
			the evils of human existence.
		
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38
			The cause of human abasement is not in
		
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40
			Quran language, the flesh,
		
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43
			but pride and self greed and deception of
		
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46
			Satan who whispers his temptations to receptive humans.
		
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			So aesthetic practices
		
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			are generally limited,
		
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55
			to enhance spiritual awareness, not to punish an
		
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57
			evil body and here there's a a clear
		
00:18:57 --> 00:18:58
			difference between
		
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00
			classical Christian thought
		
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04
			and classical Islamic thought, where Christian thought sees
		
00:19:04 --> 00:19:04
			the body
		
00:19:05 --> 00:19:05
			as
		
00:19:06 --> 00:19:07
			as,
		
00:19:07 --> 00:19:11
			part of matter and in a in a
		
00:19:11 --> 00:19:11
			dualistic,
		
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14
			platonic view sees the body as inferior,
		
00:19:15 --> 00:19:16
			to the soul and as corrupt.
		
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20
			In Sufism
		
00:19:20 --> 00:19:21
			where,
		
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23
			in some forms of Sufism where it is
		
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26
			encouraged to inflict some discomfort on the body
		
00:19:26 --> 00:19:27
			and it's justified.
		
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30
			It's not because the body is evil but
		
00:19:30 --> 00:19:32
			because this is a way to discipline the
		
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34
			inner self which directs the body.
		
00:19:36 --> 00:19:37
			So in this sense,
		
00:19:37 --> 00:19:38
			ego mortification
		
00:19:39 --> 00:19:41
			rather than flesh mortification is the goal.
		
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45
			But for the external observer, the impression that
		
00:19:45 --> 00:19:47
			is given is of punishment to the body.
		
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51
			Extreme forms of bodily denial to tame an
		
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53
			evil nafs or an evil self or soul
		
00:19:53 --> 00:19:54
			or ego
		
00:19:54 --> 00:19:55
			ego
		
00:19:55 --> 00:19:59
			have, not gone unchallenged in Muslim society. The
		
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02
			majority of Muslims, including most Sufis, have rejected
		
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04
			extreme practices as contrary to the example of
		
00:20:04 --> 00:20:06
			the prophet and his companions.
		
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11
			For the majority, means moderation and simplicity
		
00:20:11 --> 00:20:12
			of lifestyle.
		
00:20:13 --> 00:20:14
			But here, we we,
		
00:20:15 --> 00:20:16
			turn to ethical
		
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20
			reasoning. What does moderation and simplicity mean? These
		
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22
			are relative terms
		
00:20:22 --> 00:20:23
			and
		
00:20:23 --> 00:20:27
			the the places where we see a concept
		
00:20:27 --> 00:20:28
			like moderation invoked,
		
00:20:29 --> 00:20:30
			need to
		
00:20:31 --> 00:20:33
			have some attention paid to them.
		
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36
			If we look at
		
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39
			we at this conference, we had a lot
		
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41
			of talk and we'll have more tomorrow about
		
00:20:41 --> 00:20:43
			Halal food and the expansion of
		
00:20:44 --> 00:20:44
			of
		
00:20:45 --> 00:20:46
			halal,
		
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49
			to Taib, the Taib food market, or the
		
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52
			Islamic food market that includes not only,
		
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56
			how the animal is slaughtered, but how the
		
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58
			animal is raised and treated from the time,
		
00:20:59 --> 00:21:01
			how it's how it's treated its whole life.
		
00:21:01 --> 00:21:02
			And it could also
		
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05
			include, what is done to the earth or
		
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07
			the environment on which the animal is raised,
		
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10
			the workers who are involved in the process.
		
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12
			So this is a this is a holistic
		
00:21:13 --> 00:21:13
			approach.
		
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16
			We would we could call this supply chain
		
00:21:16 --> 00:21:17
			ethics,
		
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19
			and it's something that you could easily learn
		
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21
			about by going to your local Whole Foods
		
00:21:21 --> 00:21:23
			and looking at the numbering system for the
		
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26
			different levels of of meat, you know. Number
		
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27
			1 to up to
		
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30
			5 or at least that was my local
		
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31
			Whole Foods.
		
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33
			You know, the best is number 5 where
		
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35
			all of these factors are taken into account.
		
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39
			Now, it might seem that this, supply chain
		
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41
			ethics is a new hipster phenomenon,
		
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44
			but actually it's part of Islamic
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:45
			theological,
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:47
			ethical discourse from the beginning.
		
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51
			The concept of blocking the means in Islamic
		
00:21:52 --> 00:21:52
			ethics,
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55
			If we look at Ahmed ibn Hanbal's Kitav
		
00:21:55 --> 00:21:56
			al Wara
		
00:21:56 --> 00:21:58
			where he says that,
		
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00
			you know, things like,
		
00:22:01 --> 00:22:02
			even if you're if you're in a mosque
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05
			and you notice that someone is burning incense
		
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07
			that you know was donated
		
00:22:08 --> 00:22:09
			by a prince
		
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12
			or some authority who got the money from
		
00:22:12 --> 00:22:13
			stolen property
		
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16
			that you should hold your breath and run
		
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19
			out of the mosque so you don't breathe
		
00:22:19 --> 00:22:19
			in
		
00:22:21 --> 00:22:21
			this,
		
00:22:21 --> 00:22:25
			this smoke, this incense that originated through a
		
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27
			kind of supply chain back to
		
00:22:28 --> 00:22:29
			unlawful wealth.
		
00:22:30 --> 00:22:31
			So he was I mean, if you if
		
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33
			you wanna go back to supply chain ethics,
		
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36
			Kitab al Wara is, is all about that.
		
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40
			Imam Abu Hanifa as well when he was
		
00:22:40 --> 00:22:41
			asked why did you not write a book
		
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44
			of Warah of righteous Warah is righteousness?
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47
			He responded, I wrote a book of commerce
		
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49
			instead. So this is a different aspect of
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52
			being very realistic about things
		
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55
			and about, the supply chain or the lawfulness
		
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58
			not only of what you have but where
		
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01
			it came from. So following that chain of
		
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03
			transmission back to something to something good.
		
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10
			Of course, not everyone's interest and concerns are
		
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12
			given the same attention in these books.
		
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15
			There are certain things that are prioritized and
		
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17
			others that are not. But here, you could
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:18
			say,
		
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21
			here is a discourse that really is rooted
		
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23
			in the body, in what you consume,
		
00:23:23 --> 00:23:25
			in what you breathe,
		
00:23:25 --> 00:23:26
			in what in what,
		
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30
			you bring into your home. So there is
		
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32
			a a a very strong tradition here.
		
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35
			But I want to make, another point,
		
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38
			a kind of side point before I go
		
00:23:38 --> 00:23:40
			on with this is that
		
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42
			just my my advice,
		
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45
			as we go forward in this Islamic ethical
		
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47
			discourse and
		
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50
			develop it, is that when we talk about
		
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52
			things like supply chain ethics, we really need
		
00:23:52 --> 00:23:52
			to distinguish
		
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56
			priorities from tactic or principles from tactics and
		
00:23:56 --> 00:23:56
			priorities.
		
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00
			As someone who is a teenager boycotted
		
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03
			grapes from Chile, apples from South Africa, and
		
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05
			chocolate from Nestle, those of you who,
		
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08
			you know, grew up at the same time
		
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10
			as me know why all those companies were
		
00:24:10 --> 00:24:10
			boycotted,
		
00:24:12 --> 00:24:13
			because of the exploitation
		
00:24:13 --> 00:24:17
			of the workers and apartheid in South Africa.
		
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20
			I know what it means to be a
		
00:24:20 --> 00:24:20
			very
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:22
			enthusiastic
		
00:24:23 --> 00:24:24
			activist
		
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27
			in this area and how annoying that can
		
00:24:27 --> 00:24:28
			be to to your parents.
		
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32
			And also how that can divide people who
		
00:24:32 --> 00:24:33
			who live together.
		
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37
			I think we have to be very careful
		
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40
			about litmus test that are set by activists,
		
00:24:41 --> 00:24:42
			and those with an ethical outlook.
		
00:24:43 --> 00:24:45
			And the litmus test is it's not only
		
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48
			a litmus test that this cause is the
		
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50
			is the cause that defines
		
00:24:51 --> 00:24:51
			righteousness
		
00:24:52 --> 00:24:53
			or purity
		
00:24:53 --> 00:24:54
			or sincerity,
		
00:24:55 --> 00:24:55
			lack of hypocrisy,
		
00:24:57 --> 00:24:59
			but also as if their cause is the
		
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00
			only one that should be prioritized.
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04
			So we have to distinguish the principles which
		
00:25:04 --> 00:25:06
			are justice and equality from tactics
		
00:25:07 --> 00:25:08
			like boycotts
		
00:25:08 --> 00:25:09
			and from perspectives,
		
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12
			I e, that this cause
		
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14
			must be the priority, and if you abandon
		
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16
			this cause or you don't care about this,
		
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18
			then it must it means that you really
		
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21
			don't care. You really don't have faith. It
		
00:25:21 --> 00:25:22
			is a form of hypocrisy.
		
00:25:24 --> 00:25:27
			So, with ethical reasoning, we need to try
		
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29
			to take into account as many relevant concerns
		
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32
			as possible in time to make a decision.
		
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35
			We have to make decisions. But what are
		
00:25:35 --> 00:25:36
			some of those concerns?
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40
			Those concerns also include things like maintaining relationships.
		
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44
			You know, doctor Jackson talked about,
		
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48
			that Islam can't be reduced to the law.
		
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52
			And certainly, ethics isn't all of Islam. Ethics
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55
			is a form of law or a form
		
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57
			of legal reasoning, but it is not all
		
00:25:57 --> 00:25:58
			of Islam.
		
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00
			So, we look at when the Quran says
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:01
			something
		
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07
			like, Someone is the reward for kindness or
		
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10
			a kindness or good goodness towards you, anything
		
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12
			else than goodness towards that person.
		
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16
			How often are those who cut off off
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17
			or are rude,
		
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20
			to those who don't sign on to their
		
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22
			cause? And here, I'll just give a a
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:23
			personal,
		
00:26:24 --> 00:26:25
			aside.
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27
			My my daughter, Sumayya,
		
00:26:27 --> 00:26:28
			who was,
		
00:26:28 --> 00:26:29
			much more
		
00:26:30 --> 00:26:30
			enthusiastic,
		
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36
			supply chain ethicist even at
		
00:26:36 --> 00:26:38
			12 or 13 years old
		
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41
			than than I ever was, and and, was
		
00:26:41 --> 00:26:41
			a vegetarian.
		
00:26:43 --> 00:26:45
			Very very strict about this, strongly believed in
		
00:26:45 --> 00:26:46
			it.
		
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48
			Later in her life,
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51
			she became very ill, and she's been many
		
00:26:51 --> 00:26:51
			years
		
00:26:52 --> 00:26:52
			now,
		
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56
			very sick and and quite isolated,
		
00:26:56 --> 00:26:57
			bedridden.
		
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59
			But her mind is as sharp as anything
		
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02
			and she's, really my Sheikh. She's taught me
		
00:27:02 --> 00:27:03
			so much.
		
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05
			And she she said to me, she was
		
00:27:05 --> 00:27:06
			talking to me the other day and she
		
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08
			said, remember when I lived with,
		
00:27:09 --> 00:27:13
			with, a wonderful woman, a widow from Syria
		
00:27:13 --> 00:27:14
			who,
		
00:27:14 --> 00:27:16
			took her into her home. We used to
		
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18
			live with her, and then when when Sumayya
		
00:27:18 --> 00:27:19
			wanted to go back,
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22
			to Chicago to school, she let her live
		
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24
			with her for a year. And by that
		
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26
			time, Sumayya was a vegetarian.
		
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29
			And how, poor Khaleda did I, she would
		
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32
			keep giving Sumayya dishes of food and she's
		
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34
			the best cook in the whole city.
		
00:27:34 --> 00:27:37
			And Sumay would say, but I'm a vegetarian,
		
00:27:38 --> 00:27:39
			I can't eat that. And she said, well,
		
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41
			it's it's not it's not meat, it's just
		
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43
			little pieces, and with the roast rice and
		
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45
			the peas. She's like, but that's meat. I
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:46
			can't eat meat.
		
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49
			And and Sumay was saying to me, you
		
00:27:49 --> 00:27:49
			know,
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52
			I really wish I hadn't been like that.
		
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54
			That my relationship with her
		
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57
			is the thing that is more important to
		
00:27:57 --> 00:27:58
			me now.
		
00:27:58 --> 00:28:00
			Then why could she said, why couldn't I
		
00:28:00 --> 00:28:02
			just have let it go for her?
		
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05
			You know, and really understanding in a more
		
00:28:05 --> 00:28:06
			holistic way.
		
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09
			Not that she should have not been vegetarian,
		
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12
			but understanding here, this food was not just
		
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14
			me, it was love,
		
00:28:14 --> 00:28:15
			attention,
		
00:28:16 --> 00:28:17
			care. It was a relationship.
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20
			It's not just about food in a in
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23
			a bag as it were or a dish
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26
			but about eating together, about having concerns.
		
00:28:30 --> 00:28:31
			And
		
00:28:35 --> 00:28:36
			concerns?
		
00:28:36 --> 00:28:37
			And as I say, we have to be
		
00:28:37 --> 00:28:41
			very careful about terms like extreme and moderate
		
00:28:41 --> 00:28:42
			because the
		
00:28:42 --> 00:28:43
			the response
		
00:28:43 --> 00:28:44
			of those
		
00:28:44 --> 00:28:46
			who do not want to care about these
		
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49
			things is to say that's too extreme,
		
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50
			Muslims are moderate.
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:52
			Or as I've heard before,
		
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55
			Muslims aren't supposed to be dusty dervishes,
		
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58
			you know, when you when you argue against
		
00:28:58 --> 00:28:58
			consumerism,
		
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02
			I literally heard that that term as if
		
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04
			as if, to argue for some moderation,
		
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08
			means that we are resorting to some kind
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11
			of extreme form, of asceticism.
		
00:29:13 --> 00:29:15
			But we have to realize that we live
		
00:29:15 --> 00:29:16
			in a time
		
00:29:17 --> 00:29:19
			in particular, and this is where where this
		
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20
			idea of moderation really
		
00:29:21 --> 00:29:22
			is,
		
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24
			almost a meaningless term now.
		
00:29:25 --> 00:29:25
			Because
		
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28
			the reality is that consumption in our time
		
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31
			simply is not like consumption in other times.
		
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35
			Rather, it is more fraught with moral peril
		
00:29:35 --> 00:29:36
			due to the nature of some of the
		
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38
			goods and products that have been developed in
		
00:29:38 --> 00:29:38
			modernity,
		
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50
			period this been subject to an ongoing experiment
		
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53
			without their consent to see how their labor
		
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55
			and land could best be exploited to improve
		
00:29:55 --> 00:29:56
			the lifestyles
		
00:29:56 --> 00:29:57
			of privileged
		
00:29:57 --> 00:30:00
			individuals and communities across the world.
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03
			And more substantially, to further the economic interest
		
00:30:03 --> 00:30:04
			of the politically
		
00:30:05 --> 00:30:06
			dominant nations,
		
00:30:06 --> 00:30:07
			including our own.
		
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11
			Greed, selfishness and avarice, of course, are not
		
00:30:11 --> 00:30:12
			distinctly modern characteristics.
		
00:30:13 --> 00:30:15
			These are human failings to to which all
		
00:30:15 --> 00:30:16
			people are subject,
		
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19
			the ancients and the moderns, the illiterate, and
		
00:30:19 --> 00:30:19
			the most educated.
		
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23
			Our time, however, is characterized,
		
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25
			among other things, by the rapid development of
		
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27
			new tech technologies,
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:29
			and the reorganization
		
00:30:29 --> 00:30:32
			of social structures, and the intensive exploitation of
		
00:30:32 --> 00:30:35
			the environment to optimize the use and impact
		
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36
			of such technologies.
		
00:30:37 --> 00:30:38
			New technologies,
		
00:30:38 --> 00:30:40
			materials, and methods of production are introduced with
		
00:30:40 --> 00:30:43
			dizzying speed and with the course of power
		
00:30:43 --> 00:30:44
			of modern nation states,
		
00:30:44 --> 00:30:47
			and are sometimes imposed on whole populations
		
00:30:47 --> 00:30:49
			in a very short period.
		
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53
			Now, very often, these things,
		
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56
			bring significant improvements to people's lives.
		
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00
			The cash earned from export crops is used
		
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02
			to advance the development of an economy.
		
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05
			Technology freeze children from the burden of laboring,
		
00:31:07 --> 00:31:08
			and makes it possible for them to be
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10
			educated when schools are available.
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14
			There's no doubt that plastic buckets, food containers,
		
00:31:14 --> 00:31:15
			and medical supplies have significantly
		
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18
			contributed to improved health and hygiene across the
		
00:31:18 --> 00:31:19
			world.
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:22
			We've only realized lately, however, that many of
		
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25
			these products which in themselves in themselves
		
00:31:26 --> 00:31:27
			are beneficial
		
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30
			result from a manufacturing process that generates noxious
		
00:31:30 --> 00:31:31
			waste.
		
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33
			Further, when many of these products are broken
		
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36
			or replaced by more advanced models, they become
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38
			pollution because they do not
		
00:31:38 --> 00:31:38
			biodegrade.
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:42
			Before the
		
00:31:43 --> 00:31:44
			synthetic products,
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47
			every man made object would or could eventually
		
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49
			degrade back into the earth. That's why you
		
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51
			can find people,
		
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54
			you know, sites where people have lived for
		
00:31:55 --> 00:31:57
			3000 years in the near east, and they
		
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59
			were able to live one on top of
		
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01
			the other. And all they left behind are
		
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04
			the little shards or sherds and dust
		
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07
			of their previous existence. Not anymore. Those places
		
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09
			are all filled with water bottles.
		
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16
			What is saddest and most sinful in all
		
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18
			of this is that the millions of poor
		
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20
			people across the world
		
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23
			experience few or none of the benefits of
		
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26
			modern industry and agricultural methods, but they suffer
		
00:32:26 --> 00:32:28
			the most directly from their toxic outflows.
		
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32
			I remember when we went to Indonesia with
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:33
			the Nowhere Foundation,
		
00:32:34 --> 00:32:36
			passing through the countryside in Java, through very
		
00:32:36 --> 00:32:38
			small villages, along waterways. The inhabitants evidently own
		
00:32:38 --> 00:32:40
			very few of the modern products that can
		
00:32:40 --> 00:32:41
			improve health and well-being. They did not have
		
00:32:41 --> 00:32:42
			well roofed and screened homes
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46
			can improve health and well-being. They did not
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48
			have well roofed and screened homes to keep
		
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50
			out the rain and mosquitoes. They did not
		
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52
			have a medical clinic or sturdy footwear.
		
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55
			At the same time, these people had been
		
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58
			robbed of any kind of pristine or bucolic
		
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00
			rural environment that offers its own
		
00:33:01 --> 00:33:01
			benefits.
		
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05
			Their stream, for example, was clogged with plastic
		
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08
			garbage and poisoned by the industrial chemicals produced
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10
			by factories far upstream.
		
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14
			And we see this in America too.
		
00:33:14 --> 00:33:16
			South side of Chicago, where I used to
		
00:33:16 --> 00:33:19
			live, that's where the garbage is incinerated.
		
00:33:21 --> 00:33:22
			And the toxic
		
00:33:22 --> 00:33:25
			outflow from that falls on the population there.
		
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28
			Consumption and material progress in the modern modern
		
00:33:28 --> 00:33:29
			age therefore poses,
		
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32
			just like warfare and terrorism, challenges that are
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:33
			qualitatively
		
00:33:33 --> 00:33:34
			different
		
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36
			than those proposed in pre modernity.
		
00:33:37 --> 00:33:40
			Terrorism, for example, is not new. It's well
		
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42
			known that the term assassin has its origins
		
00:33:43 --> 00:33:44
			in the Ismaili
		
00:33:45 --> 00:33:47
			extremists who were dedicated to overthrowing the Abbasid
		
00:33:47 --> 00:33:48
			Caliphate.
		
00:33:50 --> 00:33:50
			The assassins
		
00:33:51 --> 00:33:55
			performed there would often sneak into crowded public
		
00:33:55 --> 00:33:58
			mosques during Friday services to kill officials with
		
00:33:58 --> 00:33:59
			their daggers.
		
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01
			Of course, as soon as they attack, they
		
00:34:01 --> 00:34:03
			themselves were killed by guards of the crowd,
		
00:34:03 --> 00:34:05
			so these were essentially suicide attacks.
		
00:34:06 --> 00:34:08
			However, the damage to human life was always
		
00:34:08 --> 00:34:11
			limited because a single person can kill a
		
00:34:11 --> 00:34:13
			limited number of people with a dagger.
		
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16
			Contrast this with our modern age where a
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:18
			single person can kill 100 of people with
		
00:34:18 --> 00:34:21
			an explosive vest or even 1,000 by releasing
		
00:34:21 --> 00:34:24
			a poisonous vapor into a crowded public place.
		
00:34:25 --> 00:34:26
			More restrictive
		
00:34:26 --> 00:34:28
			security measures or more robust
		
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32
			security measures can certainly be justified when the
		
00:34:32 --> 00:34:33
			harm that would be caused by such an
		
00:34:33 --> 00:34:34
			attack
		
00:34:35 --> 00:34:36
			is so vast.
		
00:34:37 --> 00:34:37
			Similarly,
		
00:34:37 --> 00:34:40
			no pre modern human product or form of
		
00:34:40 --> 00:34:42
			manufacturing could ever have caused anything near the
		
00:34:42 --> 00:34:43
			damage
		
00:34:43 --> 00:34:46
			to people, water, fish, and birds,
		
00:34:46 --> 00:34:48
			and the rest of the environment
		
00:34:48 --> 00:34:51
			that the Chernobyl nuclear disaster of 1986
		
00:34:51 --> 00:34:51
			caused.
		
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57
			One could insist that more nuclear power plants
		
00:34:57 --> 00:34:59
			are currently needed to meet our power consumption
		
00:34:59 --> 00:35:01
			needs, but we could also insist that there's
		
00:35:01 --> 00:35:04
			an ethical imperative to reduce our power consumption
		
00:35:04 --> 00:35:06
			even if we can afford to pay for
		
00:35:06 --> 00:35:06
			it.
		
00:35:07 --> 00:35:08
			And this is where we get to the
		
00:35:08 --> 00:35:09
			problem with fatwas.
		
00:35:10 --> 00:35:11
			Fatwas that reduce complex
		
00:35:12 --> 00:35:14
			problems to ideal types.
		
00:35:15 --> 00:35:17
			So there is no, you know, to say
		
00:35:17 --> 00:35:19
			something like, is it lawful
		
00:35:20 --> 00:35:20
			to,
		
00:35:21 --> 00:35:22
			to use,
		
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25
			you know, electricity? Of course, it's lawful. But
		
00:35:25 --> 00:35:25
			there's no
		
00:35:26 --> 00:35:26
			electricity.
		
00:35:27 --> 00:35:27
			They're just
		
00:35:28 --> 00:35:29
			actual
		
00:35:29 --> 00:35:31
			forms of electricity. They're actual
		
00:35:35 --> 00:35:38
			electrical generation. There's no beef
		
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40
			in an ideal or essential sense. There are
		
00:35:40 --> 00:35:42
			only specific cuts of
		
00:35:42 --> 00:35:43
			beef. So here,
		
00:35:44 --> 00:35:45
			where we return,
		
00:35:46 --> 00:35:48
			we see the federal literature is completely incapable
		
00:35:49 --> 00:35:50
			of dealing with these issues
		
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54
			because they constantly revert to ideals and not
		
00:35:54 --> 00:35:55
			to actual situations.
		
00:35:56 --> 00:35:58
			Or even when they refer to actual they
		
00:35:58 --> 00:36:01
			believe they refer to actual situations, they they
		
00:36:01 --> 00:36:02
			are not.
		
00:36:02 --> 00:36:05
			They're still idealized or generalized,
		
00:36:06 --> 00:36:07
			forms of questioning.
		
00:36:08 --> 00:36:10
			And if this is the case, and here,
		
00:36:10 --> 00:36:11
			I think, where where
		
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13
			doctor Jackson and I agree
		
00:36:14 --> 00:36:18
			is that, our our scholarly tradition, our Sharia
		
00:36:18 --> 00:36:20
			tradition is not capable of
		
00:36:20 --> 00:36:21
			dealing
		
00:36:21 --> 00:36:22
			with many of these things.
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24
			That the methodology,
		
00:36:25 --> 00:36:27
			has some something to contribute,
		
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30
			but it really is outside
		
00:36:30 --> 00:36:31
			of the
		
00:36:32 --> 00:36:33
			authority,
		
00:36:33 --> 00:36:34
			understanding,
		
00:36:34 --> 00:36:35
			ability,
		
00:36:37 --> 00:36:40
			of the sharia tradition to deal with this.
		
00:36:41 --> 00:36:42
			People,
		
00:36:42 --> 00:36:45
			ordinary people, the people who are affected by
		
00:36:45 --> 00:36:47
			these need to set their own limits,
		
00:36:49 --> 00:36:50
			but religious leaders
		
00:36:50 --> 00:36:51
			still have a role.
		
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54
			And I believe their role primarily is to
		
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57
			remind us of the morality upon which these
		
00:36:57 --> 00:36:58
			rights are established,
		
00:36:59 --> 00:37:02
			and to narrate and preach a moral vision.
		
00:37:04 --> 00:37:06
			A moral vision that for Muslims is based
		
00:37:06 --> 00:37:08
			in the Quran and the teachings of the
		
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10
			of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:12
			We How do we
		
00:37:13 --> 00:37:15
			how do we even embody a sense that
		
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17
			or embody a commitment
		
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21
			to do these things? It is by learning
		
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23
			them through a kind of imaginative
		
00:37:23 --> 00:37:24
			exercise
		
00:37:24 --> 00:37:25
			and through storytelling.
		
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29
			And preaching really is that. Preaching is the
		
00:37:29 --> 00:37:31
			the narrative and the stories that we hear
		
00:37:31 --> 00:37:32
			mostly.
		
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34
			And so, here we can,
		
00:37:34 --> 00:37:36
			you know, the ability of of preachers
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:39
			to reference Quranic verses that talk about
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:42
			the consumption of wholesome things. Oh, you who
		
00:37:42 --> 00:37:44
			believe do not make unlawful the wholesome things
		
00:37:44 --> 00:37:45
			that God has made lawful for you, but
		
00:37:45 --> 00:37:46
			commit no excess.
		
00:37:47 --> 00:37:49
			For God does not love those given to
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:50
			excess.
		
00:37:50 --> 00:37:53
			Oh, children of Adam, wear your wasteful. I'm
		
00:37:53 --> 00:37:54
			terrified because we are the most wasteful,
		
00:38:01 --> 00:38:02
			God does not love the wasteful. I'm terrified
		
00:38:02 --> 00:38:04
			because we are the most wasteful
		
00:38:05 --> 00:38:07
			people. And to say, God it's a very
		
00:38:07 --> 00:38:08
			strong
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09
			language,
		
00:38:09 --> 00:38:10
			you know.
		
00:38:11 --> 00:38:13
			God does not love those who are wasteful.
		
00:38:13 --> 00:38:15
			So I think we need to and we
		
00:38:15 --> 00:38:18
			need reminders of that. We need reminders because
		
00:38:18 --> 00:38:19
			we love stuff.
		
00:38:20 --> 00:38:21
			We love to buy stuff. We love to
		
00:38:21 --> 00:38:24
			get stuff. We love to say that,
		
00:38:24 --> 00:38:25
			hey,
		
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27
			we love to quote the first part of
		
00:38:27 --> 00:38:27
			the verse,
		
00:38:28 --> 00:38:30
			you know, do not make unlawful the wholesome
		
00:38:30 --> 00:38:33
			things that god has made lawful to you,
		
00:38:33 --> 00:38:35
			but we just leave the the other part
		
00:38:35 --> 00:38:36
			off. So we need
		
00:38:37 --> 00:38:39
			though we need narrations of these. We need
		
00:38:39 --> 00:38:40
			to be reminded of these things.
		
00:38:43 --> 00:38:45
			We need to be reminded of the spiritual
		
00:38:45 --> 00:38:46
			teachings,
		
00:38:47 --> 00:38:50
			that Islam recognizes that desire if not controlled
		
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53
			by intellect and conscious conscience can be insatiable.
		
00:39:01 --> 00:39:02
			Desire for things.
		
00:39:03 --> 00:39:05
			But if we seek our happiness in those
		
00:39:05 --> 00:39:06
			things,
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09
			if we confuse our satisfying our desires with
		
00:39:09 --> 00:39:09
			happiness,
		
00:39:10 --> 00:39:13
			then we're seeking in a mirage.
		
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15
			It's in our own spiritual benefit than to
		
00:39:15 --> 00:39:16
			realize
		
00:39:16 --> 00:39:18
			the things of this world are not ends
		
00:39:18 --> 00:39:19
			in themselves,
		
00:39:21 --> 00:39:22
			but they are
		
00:39:22 --> 00:39:24
			can be useful and that what we need
		
00:39:24 --> 00:39:27
			to seek is the face of God as
		
00:39:27 --> 00:39:29
			those who say in the Quran, we feed
		
00:39:29 --> 00:39:31
			you face seeking the face of God. We
		
00:39:31 --> 00:39:33
			wish from you no reward or thanks.
		
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36
			One of the Prophet Muhammad's teachings is that,
		
00:39:36 --> 00:39:39
			that is particularly compelling from a spiritual and
		
00:39:39 --> 00:39:42
			psychological perspective in this respect is when you
		
00:39:42 --> 00:39:44
			see someone who has more look to one
		
00:39:44 --> 00:39:45
			who has less.
		
00:39:46 --> 00:39:48
			Here we have a double movement beginning with
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:51
			the elicitation of desire and envy provoked by
		
00:39:51 --> 00:39:53
			seeing someone who has a thing which one
		
00:39:53 --> 00:39:54
			lacks oneself.
		
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58
			Feeling this rising desire within oneself,
		
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00
			an initial state for which we are not
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:01
			necessarily
		
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04
			the believer must take the deliberate
		
00:40:05 --> 00:40:08
			moral and spiritually sound action of moving
		
00:40:09 --> 00:40:11
			his or her gaze from what he or
		
00:40:11 --> 00:40:12
			she has not
		
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14
			to the one who has even less.
		
00:40:15 --> 00:40:17
			Now, envy and desire for more things should
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:17
			subside
		
00:40:18 --> 00:40:21
			leading to a greater satisfaction in one's own
		
00:40:21 --> 00:40:21
			state.
		
00:40:21 --> 00:40:22
			Beyond satisfaction,
		
00:40:23 --> 00:40:25
			compassion for the one who has less. Compassion
		
00:40:25 --> 00:40:28
			can lead to further action to help the
		
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29
			person who is relatively
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:30
			deprived.
		
00:40:31 --> 00:40:33
			But this looking is a gaze and a
		
00:40:33 --> 00:40:35
			gaze is a physical action.
		
00:40:36 --> 00:40:38
			We turn our heads,
		
00:40:38 --> 00:40:41
			we turn our eyes. It means we pay
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:41
			attention
		
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44
			to the people who are beside us, who
		
00:40:44 --> 00:40:45
			we walk by.
		
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48
			I was in Minnesota a couple years ago,
		
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51
			and it was the place where, the Republicans
		
00:40:51 --> 00:40:52
			had their national convention.
		
00:40:53 --> 00:40:55
			And, they told me that when,
		
00:40:56 --> 00:40:58
			before the convention was in town,
		
00:40:58 --> 00:40:59
			they insisted
		
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01
			that the city put up a,
		
00:41:02 --> 00:41:04
			it was almost like a a curtain. They
		
00:41:04 --> 00:41:04
			were dividers,
		
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08
			in front between the sidewalk
		
00:41:09 --> 00:41:11
			and the convention where all of the homeless
		
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13
			people were. So that the people coming to
		
00:41:13 --> 00:41:16
			the convention didn't have to look at
		
00:41:16 --> 00:41:18
			the homeless people on the street.
		
00:41:19 --> 00:41:20
			So if we
		
00:41:21 --> 00:41:22
			refuse to look
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26
			unless we decide to turn
		
00:41:27 --> 00:41:27
			and
		
00:41:29 --> 00:41:31
			look, we can't begin this process
		
00:41:32 --> 00:41:32
			of
		
00:41:33 --> 00:41:34
			controlling our desires
		
00:41:35 --> 00:41:38
			and of engendering compassion towards others.
		
00:41:39 --> 00:41:40
			It means that we need
		
00:41:42 --> 00:41:43
			to take that
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:47
			action. But we also need to understand that,
		
00:41:48 --> 00:41:49
			and here,
		
00:41:49 --> 00:41:51
			I'm not gonna have much time for it,
		
00:41:51 --> 00:41:53
			but I want to go back to my
		
00:41:53 --> 00:41:54
			question at the beginning
		
00:41:55 --> 00:41:57
			about people who sacrifice themselves, who leave this
		
00:41:57 --> 00:42:00
			country, or leave their countries, leave their communities,
		
00:42:00 --> 00:42:02
			or even turn against their communities for the
		
00:42:02 --> 00:42:03
			sake
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:03
			of
		
00:42:04 --> 00:42:07
			the Muslim community, the Muslim Ummah, the greater
		
00:42:07 --> 00:42:07
			community.
		
00:42:11 --> 00:42:12
			One of the things that,
		
00:42:13 --> 00:42:15
			they refer to is the statement of the
		
00:42:15 --> 00:42:17
			prophet Muhammad when he said that
		
00:42:18 --> 00:42:18
			the
		
00:42:21 --> 00:42:23
			simile of the believers in regard to mutual
		
00:42:23 --> 00:42:25
			love, affection, and fellow feeling is that of
		
00:42:25 --> 00:42:26
			1 body.
		
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28
			When any limb of it aches, the whole
		
00:42:28 --> 00:42:30
			body aches because of sleeplessness
		
00:42:30 --> 00:42:31
			and fever.
		
00:42:32 --> 00:42:32
			Now,
		
00:42:34 --> 00:42:37
			this really is extremely profound because psychologists
		
00:42:37 --> 00:42:39
			have shown that, in
		
00:42:39 --> 00:42:41
			fact, when people identify,
		
00:42:41 --> 00:42:43
			another other people as
		
00:42:44 --> 00:42:46
			as part of them or as part of
		
00:42:46 --> 00:42:49
			the same group that watching that group even
		
00:42:49 --> 00:42:50
			by by television,
		
00:42:51 --> 00:42:52
			even distantly,
		
00:42:53 --> 00:42:54
			watching harm being inflicted
		
00:42:55 --> 00:42:58
			is a form of secondary trauma to themselves.
		
00:42:58 --> 00:42:59
			As long as there's an identification
		
00:43:00 --> 00:43:01
			with that
		
00:43:01 --> 00:43:02
			person,
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:04
			that person will,
		
00:43:04 --> 00:43:06
			begin to experience physiological
		
00:43:06 --> 00:43:07
			symptoms of trauma.
		
00:43:08 --> 00:43:09
			And I think we see it in a
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:11
			lot of our American Muslim community who spend
		
00:43:11 --> 00:43:12
			a lot of time watching,
		
00:43:13 --> 00:43:14
			trauma,
		
00:43:14 --> 00:43:17
			traumatized Muslims, Muslims who are being
		
00:43:17 --> 00:43:19
			hurt and beaten. So it isn't just a
		
00:43:19 --> 00:43:21
			question of identity. It's not just an idea.
		
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24
			It's not just that we have this idea
		
00:43:24 --> 00:43:25
			of the Ummah
		
00:43:25 --> 00:43:27
			that is that is,
		
00:43:27 --> 00:43:28
			about identity.
		
00:43:29 --> 00:43:31
			It's about a physical feeling,
		
00:43:32 --> 00:43:34
			to really take seriously the idea that the
		
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37
			body, the the community that is a body,
		
00:43:37 --> 00:43:40
			the communal body is also a body
		
00:43:40 --> 00:43:43
			to which we're connected and how profound that
		
00:43:43 --> 00:43:44
			is.
		
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47
			We live in this time of great displacement.
		
00:43:48 --> 00:43:50
			Due to political, environmental,
		
00:43:50 --> 00:43:51
			economic instability
		
00:43:51 --> 00:43:54
			and disparities, many feel uprooted and distant from
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:56
			the place they consider their home as a
		
00:43:56 --> 00:43:57
			result of forced migration.
		
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01
			Others move easily in search of economic
		
00:44:02 --> 00:44:04
			without ever grounding themselves deeply in the place
		
00:44:05 --> 00:44:06
			that they live.
		
00:44:07 --> 00:44:09
			The tremendous movement of people in the 21st
		
00:44:09 --> 00:44:11
			century has been a challenge to nationalism,
		
00:44:11 --> 00:44:14
			an ideology that depends on subscribing
		
00:44:14 --> 00:44:17
			to a mythical narrative of a unified people.
		
00:44:18 --> 00:44:18
			Multiculturalism
		
00:44:19 --> 00:44:21
			has been attacked as a failed response to
		
00:44:21 --> 00:44:22
			nationalism on the ground that it does not
		
00:44:22 --> 00:44:25
			provide norms for common action and interests.
		
00:44:25 --> 00:44:27
			The doctrine of shared values,
		
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31
			promoted by many policy makers in response to
		
00:44:31 --> 00:44:32
			the perceived failure of multiculturalism,
		
00:44:33 --> 00:44:35
			is mostly presented in a jingoistic manner with
		
00:44:35 --> 00:44:36
			little
		
00:44:36 --> 00:44:37
			substance.
		
00:44:37 --> 00:44:38
			And here is where,
		
00:44:39 --> 00:44:40
			I believe,
		
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43
			again, returning to the body and thinking about
		
00:44:43 --> 00:44:45
			habitat not homeland is important.
		
00:44:45 --> 00:44:47
			Thinking about neighborliness
		
00:44:47 --> 00:44:48
			not
		
00:44:49 --> 00:44:49
			not patriotism
		
00:44:50 --> 00:44:50
			is important.
		
00:44:51 --> 00:44:53
			To return to the statement
		
00:44:54 --> 00:44:56
			that the Prophet gave Aisha when she said,
		
00:44:56 --> 00:44:57
			I have something to give away and I
		
00:44:57 --> 00:44:59
			have 2 neighbors to which one should I
		
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01
			give it? He said, to the one whose
		
00:45:01 --> 00:45:02
			door is closer.
		
00:45:09 --> 00:45:10
			Particular
		
00:45:11 --> 00:45:13
			place a particular place and space.
		
00:45:13 --> 00:45:16
			I believe that a return to
		
00:45:16 --> 00:45:18
			looking at our our identity
		
00:45:18 --> 00:45:20
			as in the place where we are, what
		
00:45:20 --> 00:45:23
			our ethical and moral responsibilities are, paying attention,
		
00:45:23 --> 00:45:25
			looking, turning our heads
		
00:45:25 --> 00:45:27
			is the thing that will make us feel
		
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29
			grounded, is what will allow us to regain
		
00:45:29 --> 00:45:30
			our ethics.
		
00:45:31 --> 00:45:33
			At the same time, not being parochial.
		
00:45:34 --> 00:45:36
			Because if we do focus on the body,
		
00:45:36 --> 00:45:38
			it does mean that we return to that
		
00:45:38 --> 00:45:40
			supply chain. It does mean that we care
		
00:45:40 --> 00:45:43
			about the clothes that are made in Bangladesh
		
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45
			that we put on our bodies.
		
00:45:45 --> 00:45:47
			It does mean that we care about
		
00:45:47 --> 00:45:49
			the fruits and vegetables that come from Mexico
		
00:45:56 --> 00:45:56
			we're
		
00:45:58 --> 00:46:00
			just focused on our nation. I don't think
		
00:46:00 --> 00:46:02
			we should be focused primarily on nation. Yes,
		
00:46:02 --> 00:46:05
			you have, you follow the law, but that
		
00:46:05 --> 00:46:07
			isn't what makes people feel and care about
		
00:46:07 --> 00:46:08
			others,
		
00:46:08 --> 00:46:10
			and and do what's needed to make a
		
00:46:10 --> 00:46:13
			good, and and and happy, and beneficial, and
		
00:46:13 --> 00:46:14
			wholesome, and peaceful
		
00:46:18 --> 00:46:20
			society. So we don't do that, we focus
		
00:46:20 --> 00:46:23
			on on where we are and everything that
		
00:46:23 --> 00:46:25
			comes in and everything that goes out as
		
00:46:25 --> 00:46:28
			well. This is the this is the, the
		
00:46:28 --> 00:46:30
			one of the problems with the the halal
		
00:46:31 --> 00:46:31
			consumeristic
		
00:46:32 --> 00:46:34
			model. It has an awful lot to do
		
00:46:34 --> 00:46:36
			about what comes in, but not what we
		
00:46:36 --> 00:46:39
			discard, both from our bodies and and,
		
00:46:40 --> 00:46:42
			from the consumer goods that we use.
		
00:46:45 --> 00:46:46
			Finally,
		
00:46:46 --> 00:46:48
			and there's so much more to say,
		
00:46:49 --> 00:46:49
			but I think
		
00:46:51 --> 00:46:53
			a connection with
		
00:46:53 --> 00:46:55
			between our body and the land is the
		
00:46:55 --> 00:46:57
			thing that is really going to be the
		
00:46:57 --> 00:46:57
			key.
		
00:46:58 --> 00:47:00
			The body of the human being is made
		
00:47:00 --> 00:47:01
			from the earth.
		
00:47:03 --> 00:47:04
			And the
		
00:47:04 --> 00:47:04
			Muslim
		
00:47:10 --> 00:47:13
			Imam al Shafi'i said no child of Adam,
		
00:47:14 --> 00:47:16
			the body of no child of Adam is
		
00:47:16 --> 00:47:17
			impure. And that means,
		
00:47:19 --> 00:47:21
			that is the thing that unites all people.
		
00:47:22 --> 00:47:24
			It unites Muslims with non Muslims.
		
00:47:25 --> 00:47:27
			It unites men and women,
		
00:47:28 --> 00:47:31
			and it unites people with the earth, and
		
00:47:31 --> 00:47:33
			the earth from which all other creatures come
		
00:47:33 --> 00:47:34
			as well.
		
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37
			I believe that a deeply embodied and landed
		
00:47:39 --> 00:47:40
			return to ethics,
		
00:47:41 --> 00:47:43
			will be important in helping us overcome
		
00:47:43 --> 00:47:44
			some of the,
		
00:47:45 --> 00:47:46
			false ideologies,
		
00:47:46 --> 00:47:47
			false essentials,
		
00:47:48 --> 00:47:51
			that have plagued our, ethical reasoning and legal
		
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53
			reasoning. Thank you.