Ingrid Mattson – How the Quran Shapes the Sunni Community

Ingrid Mattson
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The transcript discusses the use of the Quran in relation to Muslims, as it highlights the importance of Halminoni and its cultural significance. The Sunni community is confronted with the lack of understanding of the word "the Quran" and the desire for a strong political stance and values. The traditionalists push back until a year to return to groups like ISIS, but the traditionalists have been harming people with weapons and guns. The traditionalist's position is a little problematic to say that the traditionalist is the one who has the most difficult time explaining these things, but the traditionalist's position is a little problematic to say.

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			So the first our first speaker will be
		
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			professor Ingrid Mattson, who will be speaking
		
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			on the Quran
		
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			in the Sydney community.
		
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			Alright. Good morning. Good morning. Salaam Alaikum.
		
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			Happy to be here with all of you.
		
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			Thanks, Imran,
		
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			for inviting me, and I'm so happy to
		
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			be here with Hinn Azim today, old friend
		
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			from Chicago from many days ago,
		
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			so,
		
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			should be a good time.
		
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			15 minutes for a short, just a little
		
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			morsel of the of the topic.
		
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			So I begin.
		
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			Many years ago, when I was living in
		
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			Connecticut,
		
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			a well known Sunni traditionalist scholar and preacher
		
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			came to my home for dinner.
		
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			I placed dishes of rice and bread and
		
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			bowls of salad and beef stew on the
		
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			dining room table, buffet style.
		
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			Everyone filled their plates and we sat together
		
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			around the fire in the living room where
		
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			we ate and chatted.
		
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			After finishing his serving, the scholar stood up,
		
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			held out his dish and said,
		
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			Helman Mazid,
		
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			is there more?
		
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			After all these years, I still remember his
		
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			words because I immediately responded to them on
		
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			so many levels.
		
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			As the host of the dinner, as a
		
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			fellow believer,
		
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			and as a scholar of the Quran
		
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			who is particularly fascinated with the way Muslims
		
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			engage with the Quran in all different situations.
		
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			This phrase, Halmin Mazid, is, of course, from
		
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			the Quran.
		
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			Phrasing his request for another serving in the
		
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			words of the Quran
		
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			had the immediate effect of elevating the food,
		
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			the meal, the gathering.
		
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			More than anything else, the Quran brings holiness
		
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			to our lives.
		
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			Human beings are constantly pulled as if by
		
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			gravity
		
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			into a state of dull mindlessness,
		
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			raflah, as the Quran says.
		
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			We are mostly clueless like groggy teenagers bumping
		
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			into walls as we try to get to
		
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			the kitchen.
		
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			The clues are there, says the Quran.
		
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			Think, ponder, reflect, be aware.
		
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			The ayat of the Quran, its signs, its
		
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			clues
		
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			draw our attention to the fact that every
		
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			part of creation is a wondrous
		
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			sign of God.
		
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			However, what was striking about the sheikh's use
		
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			of this particular Quranic phrase, halmin mazid, to
		
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			request more food,
		
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			is the jarring contrast between the context of
		
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			the friendly dinner in which it was articulated
		
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			and the context in which it occurs in
		
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			the Quran.
		
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			In Surah Kaf,
		
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			Surah 50 verse 30, which says,
		
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			when on that day we shall say to
		
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			the hellfire,
		
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			are you full? And it will say, is
		
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			there any more?
		
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			The pious scholar was citing the Quran,
		
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			but the Quran here is giving voice to
		
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			hellfire,
		
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			ravenous for more iniquitous souls to consume.
		
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			Does the Quranic context matter?
		
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			What is the added value as it were
		
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			in citing the Quran here?
		
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			Was it performative to demonstrate his mastery of
		
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			the text?
		
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			Was it a joke and should the Quran
		
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			be used in that way?
		
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			Was he shy to ask for more food
		
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			and instead of articulating his own desire, he
		
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			was cloaking it in God's words?
		
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			Or if each letter, each word of the
		
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			Quran is God's word, then as much as
		
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			we turn to it for guidance,
		
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			we can also bring any part of it
		
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			to any situation at any time in any
		
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			way, each and every bit is special.
		
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			And so Muslims name their children not only
		
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			after prophets and righteous people
		
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			or to indicate a relationship of servitude to
		
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			God,
		
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			Abdullah or Amatullah,
		
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			but also name their children Plaha and Yassin,
		
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			names made up by taking some of the
		
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			mysterious letters that open a number of surahs
		
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			of the Quran.
		
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			And if these are names, why not Baisal,
		
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			a name given to an unfortunate Afghan girl
		
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			I knew by taking a name out of
		
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			the Quran,
		
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			basal meaning onion.
		
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			On an episode of Little Mosque on the
		
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			Prairie, a wonderful Canadian production, how many of
		
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			you seen it? It's available in the United
		
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			States, at least on YouTube,
		
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			which is a story about a, Canadian prairie
		
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			Muslim community, small town.
		
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			There is a, and a main character is,
		
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			the imam,
		
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			the Canadian imam of the mosque named Amar.
		
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			In one episode,
		
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			which draws out the story of Amar's increasingly,
		
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			deepening relationship
		
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			with a non Muslim friend who wasn't always
		
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			a good influence.
		
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			His friend gets him in trouble. In fact,
		
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			both of them land in jail
		
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			after, some trouble,
		
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			and the imam is very angry at his
		
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			friend.
		
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			So his friend turns to him and says,
		
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			doesn't the Quran doesn't the Quran say should
		
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			old acquaintance be forgot?
		
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			Hamar says that is old Lang Syne, not
		
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			the Quran,
		
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			but there's something in that.
		
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			Expecting that the Quran has every good value,
		
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			every good sentiment, every good principle should be
		
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			found in the Quran.
		
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			It's not only something that Muslims expect,
		
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			but non Muslims expect of us as well.
		
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			There's a famous statement,
		
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			reported from ibn Abbas who said, if I
		
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			lost my camel's hobbles, I would look for
		
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			it in the book of God.
		
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			We look for everything in the Quran,
		
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			but of course, the question is when we
		
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			do that, are we simply imposing ourselves
		
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			upon the text
		
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			or is might we be even cheapening it
		
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			at times?
		
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			Quran says we are we created the human
		
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			being and we know what his soul whispers
		
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			to him for we are closer to him
		
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			than his jugular vein.
		
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			In my book, the story of the Quran,
		
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			I relate an anecdote
		
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			told to me by Remus Man, a Syrian
		
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			American from the suburbs of Chicago,
		
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			who, as a teenager, was certified in Tajweed
		
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			by the late great scholar of the Quran,
		
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			Abu Hasan Mohiadin al Kurdi,
		
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			who died in 2,009 in Damascus.
		
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			Certainly, a mercy for him
		
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			since he did not have to witness the
		
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			horror that would overtake his country soon afterwards.
		
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			Reem described her meeting with Sheikh Kurdi as
		
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			the final stage in the certification process. After
		
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			having undergone extensive
		
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			Sheikh's female,
		
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			senior female disciple,
		
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			Da'ad
		
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			Ariel Husseini, an accomplished scholar in her own
		
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			right.
		
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			On the day of the exam, Reem was
		
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			brought to the waiting room where she sat
		
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			with a dozen or so other young women,
		
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			who 1 by 1 approached a curtain behind
		
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			which lay the physically frail
		
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			but mentally acute scholar on a day bed.
		
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			The sheikh asked the women to recite from
		
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			various sections of the Quran to affirm their
		
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			mastery of recitation.
		
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			Reem described her astonishment at witnessing one of
		
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			the teenagers
		
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			who was there with her.
		
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			After successfully completing her exam,
		
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			she pulled open the drapes and said, oh,
		
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			Sheikh, I just wanna see you.
		
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			When I heard this anecdote,
		
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			struck by how it mirrors the Koranic description
		
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			of Moses,
		
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			who, having climbed Mount Sinai, says, my lord,
		
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			show yourself to me so I can gaze
		
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			upon you.
		
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			It seemed eminently possible to me that having
		
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			studied the Quran so extensively,
		
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			this young woman's intense emotions were now expressed
		
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			in the form of the sacred discourse she
		
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			had internalized.
		
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			We all long to be close to God.
		
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			From Moses to George Harrison,
		
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			I really wanna see you, Lord.
		
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			I believe that the same longing prompted this
		
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			girl to wanna see the one who was
		
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			for her in a way the penultimate
		
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			source of the Quran
		
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			because Sheikh Qardis Isnad
		
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			link his chain of transmission of the Quran,
		
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			links his knowledge of the Quran directly to
		
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			God.
		
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			The Quran is the most charismatic
		
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			presence in the Sunni community.
		
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			All other claims of holiness
		
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			are suspect and contingent contingent.
		
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			Despite the pervasiveness
		
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			of textual renderings of the Quran from printed
		
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			must hafs and smartphone apps,
		
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			it is the words of the Quran spoken
		
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			out
		
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			naming a child from it, invoking a Quranic
		
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			phrase, or saying
		
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			before an action
		
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			with which most Muslims,
		
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			ordinary Muslims if we wanted to use a
		
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			kind of
		
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			classist term,
		
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			have contact with the Quran.
		
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			The Quran is still the soundscape of holy
		
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			space and time.
		
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			It is the pious phrase to decorate a
		
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			speech. It provides the primary substance to khutbas
		
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			and many religious talks.
		
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			Now most Muslim communities share this cultural
		
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			sound and landscape.
		
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			So what characterizes
		
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			the Sunni community in particular in its relation
		
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			to the Quran?
		
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			There's a certain difficulty here for a Sunni
		
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			because the privileged position of the majority is
		
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			that we do not have to know that
		
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			much about minority communities to exist
		
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			I guess I'm the white male in the
		
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			in the room here today.
		
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			We assume our normalcy
		
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			and all other communities have particularities.
		
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			As an adult convert to Islam, I had
		
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			the fairly common experience that for some time
		
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			I insisted I was just Muslim,
		
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			and I refused to accept any sectarian
		
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			identity
		
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			whatsoever.
		
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			I became a Muslim because the Quran, or
		
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			to be more accurate, a translation of the
		
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			last Jews of the Quran,
		
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			cracked open my heart so the light of
		
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			God could illuminate it.
		
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			Like the men and women of the first
		
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			community to hear the Quran,
		
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			the person of the prophet Muhammad,
		
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			peace be upon him, elucidated
		
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			its message to me.
		
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			I heard about the prophet's character from Muslims,
		
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			who I sought out to teach me Arabic
		
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			so I could read what I heard recited.
		
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			But at first, I wasn't even convinced that
		
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			I had to become Muslim in the sense
		
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			of embracing this religious identity
		
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			and becoming part of this religious community.
		
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			I left my childhood religious tradition years before.
		
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			I quietly walked out of that room of
		
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			religion and closed the door behind me,
		
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			But my own reading of the Quran led
		
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			me to the conclusion that I would have
		
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			to make some lifestyle changes if I were
		
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			not to deny what I now knew that
		
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			this was the word of God.
		
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			But I knew it would be difficult to
		
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			live as a Muslim.
		
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			I didn't want this hassle in my life.
		
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			As I was holding back and making a
		
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			com a commitment to be a member of
		
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			this religious community, I dreamed of the prophet
		
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			Muhammad.
		
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			I saw him receiving revelations, finding it hard,
		
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			almost painful.
		
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			I woke up and thought, okay, it will
		
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			not be easy to bring the Quran and
		
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			all it means into my life,
		
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			but the prophet Muhammad will show me the
		
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			way.
		
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			For the Sunni Muslim, the sunnah of the
		
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			prophet Muhammad is intertwined,
		
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			inexorably linked with the Quran in shaping shaping
		
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			the community.
		
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			For a Sunni Muslim, the Quran cannot be
		
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			understood fully and truly
		
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			without the sunnah of the prophet Mohammed.
		
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			The big question is, how do we know
		
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			the sunnah? And for many Muslims,
		
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			that became
		
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			knowing hadith.
		
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			But of course this has not always been
		
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			the case.
		
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			Imam Malik,
		
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			the great scholar of Medina,
		
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			whose Medina in school is the original school
		
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			of law,
		
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			believed that the sunnah was best transmitted
		
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			through the knowledge through the practice of the
		
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			community
		
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			and the knowledge of pious people.
		
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			Over time, textualism
		
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			came to dominate traditional
		
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			Sunni Islam
		
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			and then was challenged,
		
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			by the,
		
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			by others
		
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			both from, you could say, the right and
		
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			the left.
		
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			And so
		
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			at this point, the question is,
		
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			which one of those or which of those
		
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			groups
		
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			represent Sunni Islam.
		
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			If there is a Sunni Muslim community, it
		
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			is vast, contradictory,
		
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			and contentious.
		
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			A nation of undefined borders and regular bickering
		
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			over membership.
		
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			That diversity and disputativeness
		
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			define this community
		
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			is a direct result of the fact that
		
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			both the Sunnah and the Quran
		
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			are texts.
		
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			I think we could find one limit or
		
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			border of the Sunni community though at the
		
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			point where the existence of an interpretive gap
		
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			is rejected.
		
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			Imran began this conference citing, Adi ibn Abi
		
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			Talib's,
		
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			words to the Hawarij
		
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			that this Quran is merely a scripture between
		
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			two covers. It does not speak. It is
		
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			men who speak through it.
		
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			For Sunnis, the interpretive move between words and
		
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			their meaning must be justified according to evidence
		
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			and a methodology that is ostensibly
		
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			accessible to all rational Muslims who can understand
		
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			the sources.
		
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			But the belief that it is possible for
		
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			the meaning of the Quran to be accessible
		
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			to humanity as a whole,
		
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			that as the slogan says, there's no clergy
		
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			in Islam,
		
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			can lead the Sunni community to a radical
		
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			egalitarianism
		
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			that is disruptive and anti intellectual.
		
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			It It can also create a vacuum of
		
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			authority to be filled by other manifestations
		
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			of power,
		
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			imperial power, for example.
		
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			Religious anarchy is reined in by the construction
		
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			of a foundation of skills and knowledge that
		
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			can only be acquired through disciplined and supervised
		
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			study.
		
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			And this, on the other hand, can lead
		
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			to,
		
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			to traditionalism
		
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			that veers on claretism.
		
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			The recognition of a core set of diverse,
		
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			equally authentic interpretive methods and schools within Sunni
		
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			Islam
		
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			is an aspirationally
		
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			ironic solution to the rejection
		
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			of, the Mamate on one hand.
		
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			Although Sunni Muslims,
		
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			I would say, especially traditionalist Sunni Muslims love
		
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			the Imams and their person and the family,
		
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			of the prophet, the Ahlul Bayt.
		
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			And the need to establish parameters of orthodoxy
		
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			or the appearance thereof on the other. The
		
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			embrace of an ethical pluralism that does not
		
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			descend into relativism or anarchism
		
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			is ideally
		
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			the result
		
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			of the Sunni approach to the Quran.
		
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			But choice
		
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			and the proliferation of choices makes us anxious.
		
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			As Barry Schwartz,
		
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			argues
		
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			very clearly and demonstrates in his book, The
		
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			Paradox of Choice, Why Less is More.
		
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			That human beings become anxious when we have
		
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			too many choices, and we seek false certainties
		
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			or we seek ways to manage,
		
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			our choices.
		
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			Sunnism,
		
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			traditional Sunnism,
		
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			managed this by denominationalism.
		
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			The different schools of thought,
		
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			the theological schools, and the legal schools were
		
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			made ways
		
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			of offering
		
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			choice within the proliferation of choice, of offering
		
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			15 minutes?
		
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			Oh, total.
		
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			You're 15 minutes out. I see. Okay.
		
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			Didn't understand that sign.
		
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			So,
		
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			there's a lot of sense to denominationalism.
		
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			It is a voluntary
		
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			embrace of constraints
		
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			in order to manage this diversity.
		
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			But denominational identity can harden and lead to
		
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			sectarianism.
		
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			Scholars
		
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			have different levels of charisma, there can be
		
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			a competition for resources and power,
		
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			and just setting an identity, just articulating an
		
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			identity
		
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			requires
		
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			or sets the expectation
		
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			that there are differences.
		
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			It creates mythologies of origin.
		
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			So what is the
		
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			balance?
		
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			Well, it's difficult.
		
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			It is not easy to bear the burden
		
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			of the Quran.
		
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			When the prophet himself received revelation,
		
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			he would sweat.
		
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			The Quran is not supposed to be so
		
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			easy. The Quran says, we offered this trust
		
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			to the heavens and the earth and the
		
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			mountains, but they refused to bear it. We're
		
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			wary of it. Then man picked it up.
		
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			Truly, he is oppressive and ignorant.
		
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			Oppressive?
		
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			Ignorant?
		
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			This echoes the description of humanity by the
		
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			angels in the creation story of Surah Baqarah.
		
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			Why would you put in charge of the
		
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			earth one who will corrupt it and commit
		
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			bloodshed?
		
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			God's response is I know what you do
		
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			not.
		
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			So there are no utopias here, just struggle
		
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			and trusting in God to help us
		
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			understand it all in the end.
		
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			And to sum up, I would say there's
		
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			a lot to say about Ijma'a
		
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			and
		
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			about the idea of the community.
		
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			But I would say, and maybe we could
		
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			discuss this more in the question period, if
		
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			you're interested,
		
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			that I think we've moved from Ijumah to
		
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			jamaah, and I think that's a good thing.
		
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			I think Ijumah, which was always
		
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			challenged
		
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			even within the Sunni community by scholars, of
		
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			course, of intemia, launched a devastating critique of
		
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			Ijma'a,
		
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			of consensus as something that really
		
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			did not have a strong methodological
		
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			foundation,
		
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			but what's to replace it?
		
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			Traditionalism itself was characterized by patriarchy,
		
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			by being too close to power and empire.
		
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			So if we move from Ajam'a to Jama'a,
		
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			and I think this is this is
		
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			although the traditionalist
		
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			would not
		
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			embrace this, I don't think,
		
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			it's simply happening.
		
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			Communities
		
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			are interpreting the Quran.
		
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			Communities in the sense of religious congregations,
		
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			different cultures.
		
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			They're interpret receiving the Quran and
		
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			custom and cultural interpretations,
		
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			a more diffused decision making process, maybe one
		
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			that really reflects
		
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			the idea of of negotiated,
		
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			understanding
		
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			is starting to characterize,
		
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			Sunnism in the best parts of
		
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			it. And I think that's good. I think
		
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			it also reflects the Quranic values. The fact
		
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			that the Quran identifies
		
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			terms like maruf,
		
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			what is considered to be fair or just
		
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			or right.
		
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			These terms, these Qur'anic terms
		
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			that put some some
		
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			choice and and the decision making process back
		
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			in the community is something that I think
		
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			could help us. With
		
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			that, I'll end. Thank you.
		
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			So we have,
		
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			about 10 to 90 minutes for
		
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			questions.
		
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			Do we wanna take it from the audience
		
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			first and then the panel or are we
		
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			Yeah. Okay. Maybe we can
		
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			or Or I don't I don't know how
		
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			we're I have a a clarification question. Yes.
		
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			I wonder if,
		
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			I fear Congress is really intriguing about the.
		
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			Jemaq. I wonder if you could,
		
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			complexify a little bit
		
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			your
		
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			understanding of Ijmaq
		
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			and the problems and then your understanding of
		
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			your sense of jama
		
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			as a kind of solution.
		
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			I didn't begin that. Yeah. If you have
		
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			enough time, I'd Right.
		
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			So so in the in,
		
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			the theory of Ijma'a
		
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			is that is that
		
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			if the community agrees
		
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			on a an interpretation
		
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			that it is correct
		
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			and it was the solution for Sunni Islam
		
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			to the problem of of
		
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			uncertainty,
		
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			of wanting to have a certain
		
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			decision at least for some points, for some
		
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			issues of faith and doctrine
		
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			and practice,
		
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			and also a way to
		
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			to answer,
		
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			Shi'ism
		
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			as Sunni Sunni and Shi'ism became sectarian identities,
		
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			if the Shiites had the infallible imams,
		
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			what did the Sunni community have?
		
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			But what is consensus?
		
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03
			Who are the people who are needed for
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05
			consensus? How do you determine consensus?
		
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08
			What are the qualifications for consensus?
		
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			Is someone
		
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			vile I mean, these are the questions that
		
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			were asked right within the Sunni community and
		
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			Ibn Taymiyyah is, you know, very notable for
		
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			for saying there's no such thing. You know,
		
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			the Ahlul Hadid saying there's no such thing
		
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			as consensus is ridiculous.
		
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			We still see it being invoked until today
		
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			as as professor doctor Aminan Waddud knows very
		
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			well, consensus
		
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			has been invoked to say, you know, Ijumma
		
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			has been invoked to say things like, well,
		
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			women can't lead prayer.
		
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			And so we go back to this question,
		
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			well, who says?
		
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			Who's who gets to be a scholar?
		
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			And the construction of whose
		
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			whose bona fides
		
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52
			account for this consensus is something that is
		
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55
			being more and more and more and more
		
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			challenged.
		
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			Rightly so, I would say.
		
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04
			Now the the so what's the alternative? The
		
00:23:04 --> 00:23:05
			alternative is say, no. We're gonna have a
		
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			more democratic, more egalitarian, more open,
		
00:23:11 --> 00:23:12
			more gender egalitarian
		
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			consensus.
		
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			To me, I just don't see the mechanism
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19
			for that working very well, and I'm very
		
00:23:19 --> 00:23:19
			concerned
		
00:23:20 --> 00:23:22
			personally with the pastoral needs of Muslims.
		
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26
			I'm I'm really focused on on the pastoral
		
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			needs and what I see,
		
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			Muslims do and what they need in community.
		
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			That
		
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			when
		
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			that when you live in a community
		
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			that you agree upon certain mechanisms of decision
		
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			making that you're going to follow.
		
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			And and an example would be something like
		
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			like how do we decide the beginning of
		
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			Ramadan?
		
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			So you have these claims, well, the scholars
		
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			say this this this this position,
		
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			then you have the communities
		
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			who are living in places, especially in places
		
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			like America and Canada,
		
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			where the average ordinary Muslim is really burdened,
		
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			and I would say oppressed,
		
00:24:10 --> 00:24:11
			by the
		
00:24:13 --> 00:24:13
			the fetishistic
		
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			way that traditional scholars,
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:18
			rely on traditionalist
		
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			answers.
		
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22
			It's oppressive to the ordinary
		
00:24:23 --> 00:24:23
			Muslim
		
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			who who can express his or her needs
		
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			very well and I believe has a right
		
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			to bring that in. And if we look
		
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			at someone like, you know, the analysis
		
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			in law of people like Waal Hallaq
		
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			of the decentralization
		
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			of decision making
		
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			in
		
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			pre modern Sunni Islam, I think a return
		
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			to something like that is is the way
		
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			to go.
		
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55
			Okay.
		
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59
			Can I thank you? Can I give you
		
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00
			the just the information?
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03
			He'll he'll be having given his talk. Yeah.
		
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05
			You're giving your talk. Do you did you
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:05
			have a question?
		
00:25:06 --> 00:25:06
			No.
		
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14
			Maybe. I think questions. Yeah. Are there any
		
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16
			other questions? It is a good question.
		
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19
			Thank you, professor. So my question is about,
		
00:25:20 --> 00:25:21
			so some of
		
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23
			the traditionalists will push back until a year
		
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			that if we move from the, it would
		
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29
			lead to groups like ISIS, for example. Mhmm.
		
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31
			They have their own community and yet it's
		
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33
			a it's a different understanding. I cannot say
		
00:25:33 --> 00:25:34
			these guys are not
		
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			engaging in proper scholarship that are saying Islam.
		
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			So so the conscripts of that approach,
		
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43
			I'd like you to just say something about
		
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46
			it. Right. So traditionalists have been yelling at
		
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50
			violent extremists for centuries saying, you don't understand.
		
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52
			You don't understand. You don't understand Islam. You
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54
			don't understand the Quran. You don't understand.
		
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57
			That's not the solution. The solution to groups
		
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			like ISIS is political.
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:02
			You know, there there's people with all sorts
		
00:26:02 --> 00:26:04
			of crazy views in every society,
		
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			and,
		
00:26:06 --> 00:26:07
			the question is,
		
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			are they
		
00:26:09 --> 00:26:09
			are they
		
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			you know,
		
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			to have the freedom to say those crazy
		
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16
			views is one thing, but it's always every
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17
			every state,
		
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			no matter what state structure that is, has
		
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23
			limited that speech when it when it has
		
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			led to or become
		
00:26:26 --> 00:26:27
			moved into the
		
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			the area of physical action
		
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			of actually harming people
		
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37
			with weapons and and guns. So, I mean,
		
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			the traditionalists say these things, but I don't
		
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			see I mean, for
		
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			for an ordinary,
		
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			and I don't think you need scholars,
		
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			in fact, to say
		
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			these things are wrong. In fact,
		
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			sometimes the scholars have the the traditional scholars
		
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			have the most difficult time
		
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			justifying
		
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			their argument that these things are wrong. So
		
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			if you look at that the the group
		
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			of scholars letter to ISIS,
		
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			not interested no. Sheikh Abdul Abimbayah
		
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			and all of that. I mean, frankly, the
		
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			traditionalist position is a little bit problematic to
		
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			say that that
		
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			the traditionalist were these were the firmest opponents
		
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			of the abolition of slavery. If we look
		
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			at people like,
		
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			Yousef Anabakhani,
		
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			a a a a stalwart traditionalist scholar
		
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			who opposed the abolition of slavery against the
		
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			modernist
		
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			because he couldn't accept any kind of
		
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			of view that the Quran,
		
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			moves us in the direction of moral progress
		
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			or these kind of goals.
		
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			So now 200 centuries or 200 years after
		
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			that, 2 centuries after that, the traditionalists have
		
00:27:49 --> 00:27:50
			caught up to the modernist
		
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			view.
		
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			And I don't think I I, you know,
		
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			I don't place the modernist outside of Sunni
		
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			Islam. I think, you know, Sunni Islam this
		
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			is why, you know, what is the
		
00:28:00 --> 00:28:00
			so
		
00:28:01 --> 00:28:01
			so
		
00:28:02 --> 00:28:05
			what's interesting to me is the ordinary the
		
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			intuitive
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08
			view of the ordinary Muslim
		
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			has always been and I, you know, I
		
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			hear it from ordinary
		
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			just
		
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			nice, pious, good, ordinary Muslims all the time
		
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18
			is, of course, slavery is wrong.
		
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21
			Like, of course, this is wrong. Of course,
		
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			this is.
		
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			That's their immediate belief in the same way,
		
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			you know, in the same way and we
		
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			can't get too much into it now, but
		
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			in the same way that I believe that
		
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			I mean, the first Muslims
		
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			knew something about God and expected the Quran
		
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			to affirm their belief like like, like, like,
		
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43
			like Aisha when she was slandered,
		
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			like,
		
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			like, Asma bin Tumayz when she expected the
		
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			Quran to speak to men and women.
		
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			You know, I mean, so many Muslims expected
		
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			the Quran to be to stand up for
		
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			things that were good and you might say
		
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57
			I'm veering into here
		
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			but I don't think it's I don't think
		
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			you have to move that far. I think
		
00:29:00 --> 00:29:01
			the Materidi,
		
00:29:02 --> 00:29:02
			you
		
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06
			know, theological school can can support that that
		
00:29:06 --> 00:29:06
			view.
		
00:29:07 --> 00:29:08
			So the traditionalist,
		
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11
			I mean, authority and power are 2 completely
		
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13
			different things.
		
00:29:14 --> 00:29:15
			So the traditionalist
		
00:29:16 --> 00:29:17
			confuse their
		
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20
			their authority for power.
		
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			Sometimes it's power. It can be in certain
		
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28
			cultural or social context. It can be, but
		
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			I don't see it working very well right
		
00:29:30 --> 00:29:31
			now, frankly.
		
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35
			Yeah. Are there any other questions?
		
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40
			You I have a quote from you. We
		
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			look for everything in the Quran, but when
		
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			we do that, are we imposing on the
		
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			Quran or perhaps
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:46
			even cheapening it?
		
00:29:47 --> 00:29:47
			Can you,
		
00:29:48 --> 00:29:49
			I got the imposing.
		
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51
			Mhmm. Can you elaborate on the cheapening?
		
00:29:52 --> 00:29:54
			Yeah. I think of when I look at
		
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			well,
		
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			this this struck me first when I
		
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00
			I heard from someone,
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:01
			a kind of,
		
00:30:01 --> 00:30:02
			you know, secular
		
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06
			Muslim who not an atheist, someone who still
		
00:30:06 --> 00:30:09
			respects sort of religious people and religion,
		
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12
			But one time she told me,
		
00:30:12 --> 00:30:14
			she wanted to come. She said, oh, I
		
00:30:14 --> 00:30:16
			wanna go with you one time to the
		
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			mosque just during Ramadan. I feel like like
		
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20
			being with Muslims for Ramadan. Right?
		
00:30:21 --> 00:30:22
			And she said,
		
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			my only problem is
		
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			I
		
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			I every time I hear the Quran recited,
		
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			it makes me think of death.
		
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			It makes me sad.
		
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35
			And I'm like, what? And and she said,
		
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			because
		
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			I just that's where I hear, when I
		
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			was growing up, that's where I heard all
		
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			the time is just the Quran constantly being
		
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			recited
		
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			when people die and at graves and
		
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			I that that really hurt me, you know,
		
00:30:49 --> 00:30:50
			as someone who loves the Quran. Like, to
		
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			think about that that the Quran being recited
		
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			had this negative impact because of how it
		
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			was done. And then I thought
		
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00
			of how many times I've sat in,
		
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04
			say, conferences or different things where they feel
		
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06
			it's necessary for someone to get up and
		
00:31:06 --> 00:31:08
			recite the Quran at the beginning. And I'm
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10
			like, why? Like, what?
		
00:31:10 --> 00:31:12
			Does it really bring blessing here or has
		
00:31:12 --> 00:31:14
			it become just like,
		
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17
			I don't know, a box that needs to
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19
			be checked off and and other people are
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:20
			doing other things.
		
00:31:20 --> 00:31:22
			And it it in a way, I think
		
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25
			it we can cheapen the Quran
		
00:31:26 --> 00:31:26
			when
		
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29
			when we just say, okay. We'll just bring
		
00:31:34 --> 00:31:35
			it everywhere.
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39
			Should I sit down? Thank you, Ingrid.
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:40
			We will