Ingrid Mattson – 2016 Cole Lecture Day 1

Ingrid Mattson
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AI: Summary ©

The Colealeum is a partnership between Vanderbilt University and Skerritt Bennett Center, where students share stories of their desire to be together and care for each other while acknowledging the challenges of meeting each other as neighbors. The speakers emphasize the importance of science and religion to overcome biases and recognize the natural conflict between reality and perception, and the need to shift perspective and be empowered to dismantle violence. They also discuss the importance of accepting the natural world and not just acknowledging and embracing it, as it is necessary to be a part of the natural world and is crucial for achieving peace.

AI: Summary ©

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			Good evening, one and all.
		
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			My name is Emily Towns, and I'm the
		
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			dean of the Vanderbilt Divinity School, and it's
		
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			my pleasure to welcome you here this evening.
		
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			Also, to those who are watching us livestream
		
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			and will also see these lectures
		
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			in the archives.
		
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			Welcome to you as well to the 2016
		
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			Cole Lectureship.
		
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			This lectureship was established
		
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			in 18/93
		
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			by Colonel E W Cole of Nashville
		
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			to bring distinguished
		
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			lecturers to the campus
		
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			in, as the indenture of this lectureship says,
		
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			defense and advocacy of the Christian religion,
		
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			close quote.
		
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			As we have now turned into the 21st
		
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			century,
		
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			we are broadening this once again to include
		
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			engagement,
		
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			conversation,
		
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			and shared deliberation
		
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			that abounds in the concerns that the Christian
		
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			traditions might share
		
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			with other faiths.
		
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			Among the distinguished church leaders and theologians who
		
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			have delivered the Cole Lectures over the last
		
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			123
		
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			years
		
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			are Harry Emerson
		
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			Fosdick,
		
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			Paul Tillich,
		
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			h Richard Niebuhr, Fred Craddock,
		
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			Elizabeth Schuessler Fiorenza,
		
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			Albert Raboteau, Gustavo Gutierrez,
		
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			James Cone,
		
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			Ed Farley,
		
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			David Buttrick,
		
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			Juergen Mokman,
		
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			Peter Gomes,
		
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			Jim Wallace,
		
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			James Lawson,
		
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			Elaine Pagels,
		
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			and then last year, we had a poet,
		
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			Nikki Finney.
		
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			This year's Cole lectures are part of the
		
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			transformative
		
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			Justice,
		
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			Culture, Race, and Movement series, a partnership between
		
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			Vanderbilt
		
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			Divinity School and Skerritt Bennett Center that offers
		
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			laity and clergy the opportunity
		
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			to explore different
		
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			ways to combine leadership development
		
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			through justice making,
		
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			through lectures
		
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			by poets
		
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			and writers, workshops
		
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			on social change,
		
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			other artistic media,
		
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			and even a civil rights immersion.
		
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			This partnership
		
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			draws on expertise of both institutions
		
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			and their historic commitments to offer people of
		
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			faith
		
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			resources for building a more just and faithful
		
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			culture.
		
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			Doctor Ingrid Matson
		
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			is the London and Windsor Community
		
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			Chair in Islamic Studies at Huron University.
		
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			Excuse me.
		
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			My watch is beeping at me
		
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			and telling me there's an emergency.
		
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			There is no emergency.
		
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			Excuse me.
		
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			Doctor Madsen was educated in Canada and the
		
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			United States,
		
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			earning a PhD from the University of Chicago
		
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			in 1999.
		
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			From 1998
		
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			to 2012, she was professor
		
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			of Islamic Studies
		
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			at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut,
		
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			where she developed and directed the 1st accredited
		
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			graduate program for Muslim Chaplains
		
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			in America
		
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			and served as director of the McDonnell Center
		
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			For the Study of Islam
		
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			and Christian Muslim
		
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			Relations.
		
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			From 20 10 2001
		
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			to 2010,
		
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			doctor Matson served as vice president, then as
		
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			president,
		
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			of the Islamic Society of North America,
		
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			USA,
		
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			the first woman to serve in either position.
		
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			Her writings,
		
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			both academic and public,
		
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			focus primarily
		
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			on Quran interpretation,
		
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			Islamic theological ethics, and interfaith
		
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			relations.
		
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			Her book, The Story of the Quran,
		
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			is an academic bestseller
		
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			and was chosen by the US National Endowment
		
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			for the Humanities
		
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			for inclusion in the Bridging Cultures program.
		
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			Doctor. Matson is a senior fellow of the
		
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			Royal
		
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			Al I Bayat
		
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			Institute For Islamic Thought in Amman, Jordan.
		
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			From 2,009
		
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			to 10, doctor Matson was a member of
		
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			the Interfaith
		
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			Task Force
		
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			of the White House Office of Faith Based
		
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			and Neighborhood Partnerships.
		
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			In 2008,
		
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			she was on the council of global leaders
		
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			of the C100
		
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			of the World Economic Forum
		
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			from 2 and from from 2 from 2,007.
		
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			In 2,008,
		
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			she was a member of the leadership group
		
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			of the US Muslim Engagement Project.
		
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			Doctor Madsen is the recipient of numerous awards
		
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			as well as honorary doctorates
		
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			from Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut
		
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			and the Chicago Theological Seminary.
		
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			She is frequently consulted by media
		
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			and has served as an expert witness.
		
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			Among her many awards and recognitions
		
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			are Newsweek Magazine's
		
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			People to Watch in 2007,
		
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			the El Haj Malik El Shabazz Award, presented
		
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			by the Washington
		
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			Washington Academic Leadership Institute,
		
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			the Congressional Muslim Staffers Association,
		
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			and the Muslim Society Network,
		
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			January
		
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			19, 2009.
		
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			The Medal of Independence of the First Order
		
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			for contributions
		
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			to the field of Islamic Studies,
		
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			Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
		
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			2010,
		
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			and Jordan's Royal Institute
		
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			For Strategic Studies,
		
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			as well as the 500 influential
		
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			Muslims
		
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			in 2009,
		
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			2010,
		
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			2011,
		
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			and 2012.
		
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			We welcome doctor Mattson
		
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			as this year's co lecturer
		
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			and anticipate
		
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			a vibrant
		
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			conversation.
		
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			Tonight, the title of her lecture is The
		
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			Landed Muslim
		
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			at Home on the Earth.
		
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			It is my great honor and joy to
		
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			welcome you back to Vanderbilt
		
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			and Vanderbilt Divinity School,
		
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			To this time and place and space with
		
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			us,
		
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			please join me in welcoming doctor Ingrid Madsen.
		
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			Oh, good evening.
		
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			May God's peace and blessings be upon you.
		
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			It is such an honor to be
		
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			here back at Vanderbilt. I was here a
		
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			year ago
		
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			at an event sponsored by the Center For
		
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			Faith and Culture
		
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			called Who is My Neighbor?
		
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			And saw what
		
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			a welcoming and lovely place
		
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			Nashville is.
		
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			We all have our
		
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			prejudices and our stereotypes, and, you know, a
		
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			lot of people in the north have certain
		
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			impressions of people in the south or of
		
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			the Southern US,
		
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			and I think many people when they come
		
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			to Nashville,
		
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			they realize that,
		
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			we all have to
		
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			take a second look at our assumptions about
		
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			people in different parts of the world. So
		
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			I found nothing but warm welcome here, and
		
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			and I'm I'm so happy to be back.
		
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			I'm so honored to be
		
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			part of this lecture series, the Cole Lectures.
		
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			Thank you so much,
		
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			Dean Emily Townes, for inviting me to be
		
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			part of this.
		
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			Greetings to all of you. Greetings, people of
		
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			the future who will be watching this
		
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			on the Internet at various times. Who knows
		
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			what our world would be like in another
		
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			year or another 2 years?
		
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			I
		
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			feel a little bit nervous about that, frankly.
		
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			I don't know how you're all feeling, but,
		
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			seems
		
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			sometimes like we're living in a time of
		
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			great
		
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			anxiety and disruption
		
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			and upheaval.
		
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			So it's such a blessing from God when
		
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			we have the opportunity to come together
		
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			and talk
		
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			about our desire
		
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			to be together, to come together,
		
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			to care
		
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			about each other, to care
		
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			about
		
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			those people in need, to try to find
		
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			a way forward that is faithful, that is
		
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			loving, that is generous.
		
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			We need to be those people. We need
		
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			to keep these spaces
		
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			vibrant and alive,
		
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			so this kind of language and this kind
		
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			of discourse
		
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			can continue.
		
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			And when I was here last year,
		
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			I I spoke in particular about the challenge,
		
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			one of the main challenges
		
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			in our time, which is that
		
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			it's so difficult to simply meet each other
		
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			as neighbors,
		
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			because we have many preconceptions
		
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			about who the other is.
		
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			It's not that we never had that in
		
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			the past, but perhaps
		
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			naive encounters
		
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			or,
		
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			you know,
		
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			honest kind of just fresh encounters
		
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			with new people who would come into
		
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			our neighborhood or our community
		
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			was easier when we weren't
		
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			inundated
		
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			with
		
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			the persistent news stream
		
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			of bad news. Of course, you know, news
		
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			is about what's frightening, what's scary, what's
		
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			alarming, what's a threat,
		
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			and
		
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			we notice that.
		
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			Our brains have been have evolved
		
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			to take notice of threats
		
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			more than of benign news. We remember
		
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			frightening things
		
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			more than we remember the happy things.
		
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			Just try to remember right now
		
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			about,
		
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			say, some dreams you had as a child.
		
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			How many of those dreams were nightmares
		
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			that you can remember until today, and how
		
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			many of those dreams were just pleasant.
		
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			We remember frightening things. We remember scary things,
		
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			and it distorts
		
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			our perception
		
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			of reality.
		
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			There is so much research today about prejudice
		
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			and bias, Why does it exist? How can
		
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			it be overcome?
		
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			The New York Times, just yesterday, I believe,
		
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			had a had a piece on implicit bias,
		
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			and how we are all biased.
		
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			We all know about confirmation
		
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			bias.
		
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			So we're starting to learn
		
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			more
		
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			about how we perceive the world and the
		
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			gap between
		
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			reality and perception.
		
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			And to that extent,
		
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			science is helping us,
		
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			and it's nice that at least in this
		
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			area, perhaps
		
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			science and religion can come together, because sometimes
		
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			it seems that there's a a an inherent
		
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			conflict or a clash, at least
		
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			from some I ideologues
		
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			in the 2 communities.
		
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			But
		
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			here in this way, how our minds work,
		
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			how we
		
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			perceive the other, how we form group identity,
		
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			how
		
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			we
		
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			filter reality through the prism
		
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			of the news
		
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			is something that science can help us with.
		
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			But science can't give us the ethics,
		
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			the ethical imperative,
		
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			for saying that it's necessary for us to
		
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			overcome these biases.
		
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			Science cannot
		
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			tell us that it is a matter of
		
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			justice
		
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			to
		
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			have to refuse
		
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			to act on our stereotypes,
		
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			to act on our prejudices,
		
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			to act on our biases. And and so
		
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			here is the role for the faith community.
		
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			Here is the role for the social justice
		
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			community.
		
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			We have to bring our ethical voice
		
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			to this knowledge, to this scientific
		
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			these scientific discoveries about the way the human
		
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			mind works, and say,
		
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			it's not okay to simply say and shrug
		
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			our shoulders,
		
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			well, we all have biases.
		
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			Yes. We all have them,
		
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			but we know as people of faith, people
		
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			of social justice, people who believe in the
		
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			equal and god given human dignity,
		
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			that that's just the first step.
		
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			The next step is we have to say,
		
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			how do we organize ourselves?
		
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			How do we listen to each other? How
		
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			do we open ourselves up to each other
		
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			so that we can better achieve the recognition
		
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			of the god given
		
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			dignity
		
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			of the other, to welcome the stranger, and
		
00:13:51 --> 00:13:52
			to live in harmony
		
00:13:52 --> 00:13:53
			with our neighbors.
		
00:13:59 --> 00:14:00
			I have
		
00:14:00 --> 00:14:01
			two favorite stories
		
00:14:03 --> 00:14:07
			from the Muslim tradition about Jesus, who is
		
00:14:07 --> 00:14:08
			a beloved prophet
		
00:14:09 --> 00:14:11
			in Islam, who is
		
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12
			a role model
		
00:14:13 --> 00:14:13
			for
		
00:14:14 --> 00:14:15
			the Muslim community
		
00:14:16 --> 00:14:18
			in a different way than for Christians, but
		
00:14:18 --> 00:14:19
			certainly he is
		
00:14:20 --> 00:14:20
			the guided
		
00:14:21 --> 00:14:23
			word of God in our tradition.
		
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25
			And 2 of these stories that come out
		
00:14:25 --> 00:14:27
			of the oral tradition, they're not in the
		
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29
			Quran, but they are narrated by the prophet
		
00:14:29 --> 00:14:30
			Muhammad
		
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33
			about his predecessor in the prophetic tradition,
		
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35
			Jesus,
		
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38
			and both of them tell of a conversation
		
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40
			between Jesus and his disciples
		
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43
			as they walked down a road together.
		
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46
			In the first story, Jesus and his disciples
		
00:14:47 --> 00:14:49
			pass a pig standing in a garden.
		
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52
			Jesus says to the pig,
		
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54
			peace be upon you.
		
00:14:56 --> 00:14:56
			His disciples,
		
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00
			no doubt as observant Jews repulsed by the
		
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02
			sight of a pig, asked, why did you
		
00:15:02 --> 00:15:03
			say that?
		
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04
			Jesus said,
		
00:15:05 --> 00:15:07
			I do not want my tongue to become
		
00:15:07 --> 00:15:09
			accustomed to harsh words.
		
00:15:10 --> 00:15:12
			In the second story,
		
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15
			Jesus and his disciples pass by a dead
		
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17
			dog lying at the side of the road.
		
00:15:18 --> 00:15:20
			Jesus points to the canine carcass,
		
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23
			which of course, again, according to Jewish law
		
00:15:23 --> 00:15:25
			is unclean and says,
		
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28
			look what nice white teeth he has.
		
00:15:33 --> 00:15:35
			Some people say that religious people are too
		
00:15:35 --> 00:15:36
			idealistic,
		
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39
			or that people involved in interfaith activities
		
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			are Pollyannas.
		
00:15:42 --> 00:15:42
			This is wrong.
		
00:15:43 --> 00:15:44
			We know
		
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47
			we know there is much evil in the
		
00:15:47 --> 00:15:47
			world.
		
00:15:49 --> 00:15:50
			Life is a struggle
		
00:15:50 --> 00:15:51
			and often
		
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53
			very, very sad.
		
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57
			But what Jesus and the righteous throughout the
		
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59
			ages have taught us is to see beauty
		
00:16:00 --> 00:16:01
			in the midst of ugliness,
		
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			and that how we respond to
		
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			and speak to
		
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10
			and about the less than pleasant things in
		
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			the world
		
00:16:11 --> 00:16:11
			determines
		
00:16:12 --> 00:16:13
			who we are.
		
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16
			In this regard, the Quran says,
		
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20
			do not let the hatred of others towards
		
00:16:20 --> 00:16:20
			you,
		
00:16:21 --> 00:16:22
			let you
		
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23
			deviate
		
00:16:23 --> 00:16:24
			from
		
00:16:24 --> 00:16:25
			justice.
		
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28
			Do not let the hatred of others for
		
00:16:28 --> 00:16:28
			you
		
00:16:29 --> 00:16:31
			let you deviate from justice.
		
00:16:34 --> 00:16:35
			I remember in,
		
00:16:35 --> 00:16:36
			it was 2,001
		
00:16:37 --> 00:16:37
			or 2,002,
		
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41
			I was inter interviewed by Krista Tippett,
		
00:16:43 --> 00:16:45
			who has a radio program. Now it's called
		
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47
			On Being, and in those days, it was
		
00:16:47 --> 00:16:48
			called Speaking of Faith.
		
00:16:49 --> 00:16:50
			And she asked me,
		
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55
			what were my anxieties and concerns about the
		
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58
			future for the Muslim community in the wake
		
00:16:58 --> 00:16:58
			of 911
		
00:17:00 --> 00:17:00
			and everything
		
00:17:01 --> 00:17:02
			that happened after that?
		
00:17:03 --> 00:17:04
			And,
		
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07
			of course, there are many things to be
		
00:17:07 --> 00:17:09
			concerned about, but I told her what I
		
00:17:09 --> 00:17:10
			was most worried
		
00:17:10 --> 00:17:11
			about
		
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13
			was the fact that inevitably
		
00:17:14 --> 00:17:14
			inevitably,
		
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17
			there would be an increase in
		
00:17:18 --> 00:17:19
			hatred or discrimination
		
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22
			against Muslims, and we've seen that.
		
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25
			It's much worse now than ever was before.
		
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30
			But it's not that hatred
		
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33
			that I was so worried about. I was
		
00:17:33 --> 00:17:34
			more hurried,
		
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37
			worried about what that would do to us.
		
00:17:38 --> 00:17:39
			Because
		
00:17:41 --> 00:17:42
			when you are attacked,
		
00:17:43 --> 00:17:44
			when you are
		
00:17:45 --> 00:17:45
			unjustly,
		
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49
			accused of actions
		
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51
			for which you're not responsible.
		
00:17:52 --> 00:17:53
			When you regularly
		
00:17:54 --> 00:17:54
			experience
		
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58
			discrimination, especially as a young person in in
		
00:17:58 --> 00:17:58
			your formation,
		
00:17:59 --> 00:18:02
			it can't help but affect your perception of
		
00:18:02 --> 00:18:03
			who you are.
		
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06
			And the most natural reaction is to strike
		
00:18:06 --> 00:18:07
			back strike back.
		
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10
			You know, someone hit someone strikes you, and
		
00:18:10 --> 00:18:12
			you wanna strike back.
		
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15
			Someone attacks you, and you want
		
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17
			to lash out against them.
		
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21
			You know? Someone yells something ignorant
		
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24
			at you as they're driving down the street,
		
00:18:25 --> 00:18:26
			and you
		
00:18:26 --> 00:18:27
			loosen your tongue,
		
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30
			and a few choice words are raised
		
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33
			in the wake of that
		
00:18:33 --> 00:18:34
			truck that's driving
		
00:18:35 --> 00:18:36
			quickly away.
		
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41
			It concerns me, and that it concerns me
		
00:18:42 --> 00:18:42
			that,
		
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45
			indeed, what has happened is that
		
00:18:45 --> 00:18:46
			there has been
		
00:18:48 --> 00:18:48
			such pressure
		
00:18:50 --> 00:18:50
			and such
		
00:18:51 --> 00:18:53
			a need to defend ourselves
		
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55
			that in in in some cases,
		
00:18:56 --> 00:18:56
			it doesn't
		
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00
			give us the space to think about
		
00:19:00 --> 00:19:02
			the ways in which
		
00:19:02 --> 00:19:02
			we
		
00:19:03 --> 00:19:06
			also need to perform ourselves. We need the
		
00:19:06 --> 00:19:07
			time for self reflection.
		
00:19:09 --> 00:19:10
			We are not
		
00:19:10 --> 00:19:11
			always
		
00:19:11 --> 00:19:12
			the the
		
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15
			the person in the room who has
		
00:19:16 --> 00:19:17
			it most difficult,
		
00:19:19 --> 00:19:20
			and we all have
		
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23
			multiple aspects to our being.
		
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26
			I'm gonna talk more about this tomorrow, and
		
00:19:26 --> 00:19:27
			we in the
		
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29
			lecture I'm giving about
		
00:19:29 --> 00:19:30
			perspective,
		
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34
			but I've certainly noticed this because
		
00:19:34 --> 00:19:36
			I'm not just a Muslim,
		
00:19:36 --> 00:19:37
			I'm a white person.
		
00:19:40 --> 00:19:41
			And what
		
00:19:42 --> 00:19:44
			I have noticed, and what I've learned
		
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48
			that all white people need to to learn,
		
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51
			is that yes, we too have a culture,
		
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53
			and we too have
		
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59
			a series of identity markers.
		
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03
			Although we try very hard
		
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05
			to project ourselves as neutral,
		
00:20:06 --> 00:20:07
			but there is no neutrality
		
00:20:07 --> 00:20:08
			in humanity.
		
00:20:09 --> 00:20:12
			And it's very interesting to me that,
		
00:20:12 --> 00:20:14
			yes, in some cases, there may be an
		
00:20:14 --> 00:20:15
			initial slight
		
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18
			against me as a Muslim.
		
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20
			I wear a headscarf,
		
00:20:20 --> 00:20:21
			so I'm identifiable
		
00:20:21 --> 00:20:22
			as a Muslim,
		
00:20:23 --> 00:20:24
			but in most cases,
		
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28
			after that initial
		
00:20:28 --> 00:20:29
			unspoken encounter, when I begin to speak to
		
00:20:29 --> 00:20:29
			people,
		
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40
			I They see me as one of them,
		
00:20:40 --> 00:20:41
			and
		
00:20:44 --> 00:20:45
			white identity
		
00:20:45 --> 00:20:46
			is very,
		
00:20:46 --> 00:20:47
			very powerful.
		
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51
			It's almost powerful enough to wash away
		
00:20:51 --> 00:20:52
			some of the
		
00:20:52 --> 00:20:53
			religious prejudice,
		
00:20:54 --> 00:20:56
			or some of the cultural prejudice.
		
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00
			So that's a very sobering lesson to me,
		
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03
			because I have to then
		
00:21:03 --> 00:21:06
			make the second move of examining myself, not
		
00:21:06 --> 00:21:07
			only
		
00:21:08 --> 00:21:09
			seeing my identity
		
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13
			through the collective identity of my religious community
		
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15
			and say, I need to defend my community.
		
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17
			I need to stand up for my community,
		
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19
			but I also need to recognize
		
00:21:20 --> 00:21:21
			I am part of another collectivity
		
00:21:22 --> 00:21:23
			that
		
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26
			is in a position of extreme privilege
		
00:21:28 --> 00:21:28
			and
		
00:21:29 --> 00:21:30
			also
		
00:21:30 --> 00:21:30
			*,
		
00:21:31 --> 00:21:32
			in many cases.
		
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34
			So it is
		
00:21:35 --> 00:21:36
			humbling indeed.
		
00:21:38 --> 00:21:38
			I am,
		
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41
			by nature, a very calm person,
		
00:21:42 --> 00:21:43
			but in the last
		
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46
			15 years as the news rolled in,
		
00:21:47 --> 00:21:48
			news of terrorism
		
00:21:49 --> 00:21:49
			and torture,
		
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51
			I found myself
		
00:21:52 --> 00:21:52
			often
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:54
			so very angry.
		
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57
			The only way to describe how I feel
		
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00
			even today about the terrorist attacks of 911
		
00:22:00 --> 00:22:02
			is is white hot rage.
		
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04
			I was in New York on September 10th
		
00:22:04 --> 00:22:05
			this year, and
		
00:22:06 --> 00:22:08
			just thinking about what happened, I was living
		
00:22:08 --> 00:22:10
			in Connecticut in 2,001,
		
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13
			made me so very angry.
		
00:22:15 --> 00:22:17
			But over the last 15 years when the
		
00:22:17 --> 00:22:18
			heat of my anger would dissipate,
		
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22
			I would think, now what? Now what do
		
00:22:22 --> 00:22:23
			I do
		
00:22:23 --> 00:22:24
			about that?
		
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27
			The truth is that whenever I was moved
		
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30
			to act whenever I was moved to act
		
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33
			on that anger, I would often find that
		
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35
			others had already be begun responding.
		
00:22:37 --> 00:22:38
			Terrorism in the name of Islam,
		
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41
			so offensive to me to take the thing
		
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43
			that is most precious
		
00:22:43 --> 00:22:44
			to me and my
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:46
			faith, and to use it to justify
		
00:22:48 --> 00:22:48
			murder,
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:50
			and terrorism,
		
00:22:50 --> 00:22:51
			and genocide.
		
00:22:53 --> 00:22:54
			How horrible, how
		
00:22:55 --> 00:22:55
			shameful.
		
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00
			But when I'd look around, I would find
		
00:23:00 --> 00:23:01
			many colleagues,
		
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05
			From the most distinguished Muslim scholars
		
00:23:06 --> 00:23:07
			across the world, to
		
00:23:08 --> 00:23:09
			my friends, and
		
00:23:10 --> 00:23:13
			moms, and dads, and young people
		
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16
			doing anything they could to denounce this sickness,
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:18
			issuing statements,
		
00:23:18 --> 00:23:19
			organizing
		
00:23:19 --> 00:23:20
			groups.
		
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24
			But then what to do about
		
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26
			the reaction to this?
		
00:23:27 --> 00:23:28
			What about
		
00:23:28 --> 00:23:29
			US sponsored torture?
		
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34
			Which, you know, I had just
		
00:23:34 --> 00:23:37
			a sick feeling in my stomach every time
		
00:23:37 --> 00:23:39
			I read about what happened.
		
00:23:41 --> 00:23:41
			Well,
		
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44
			again, God's grace came
		
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46
			forward
		
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48
			and brought someone like
		
00:23:49 --> 00:23:51
			Princeton professor George Hunsinger,
		
00:23:51 --> 00:23:55
			who founded their National Religious Campaign Against Torture,
		
00:23:56 --> 00:23:59
			who launched a vigorous and sustained ethical response
		
00:23:59 --> 00:24:00
			to this issue,
		
00:24:02 --> 00:24:03
			every time
		
00:24:05 --> 00:24:06
			I would hear something,
		
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09
			you know, about a mosque being burnt
		
00:24:10 --> 00:24:11
			or a Quran
		
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14
			being burnt or thrown in the trash,
		
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17
			my Christian and Jewish colleagues from across the
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:21
			country would * would hold press conferences denouncing
		
00:24:21 --> 00:24:21
			the action,
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:23
			and even
		
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25
			would hold Quran readings in response,
		
00:24:26 --> 00:24:27
			courageous
		
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29
			and generous acts of love.
		
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33
			Some people complain that interfaith programs are too
		
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36
			much about people being nice to each other.
		
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40
			My response is that there is much substantial
		
00:24:40 --> 00:24:41
			work that has been done
		
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45
			in the name and through interfaith engagement.
		
00:24:47 --> 00:24:47
			And besides,
		
00:24:49 --> 00:24:52
			perhaps being nice is somewhat underrated.
		
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55
			In the last decade,
		
00:24:56 --> 00:25:00
			vulgar, mean, and slanderous attacks, whether politically partisan
		
00:25:00 --> 00:25:01
			or religiously informed,
		
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04
			have become all too acceptable.
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08
			A kind word, a smiling face, the benefit
		
00:25:09 --> 00:25:09
			of the doubt,
		
00:25:10 --> 00:25:11
			a listening ear,
		
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14
			these are the postures the faith community should
		
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17
			retain and continue to model for the rest
		
00:25:17 --> 00:25:17
			of society.
		
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22
			The Prophet Muhammad said that when one stays
		
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25
			in the company of people who are
		
00:25:25 --> 00:25:26
			speaking in a
		
00:25:27 --> 00:25:28
			vulgar and bad way.
		
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32
			It's like being in a smoky, sooty, blacksmith
		
00:25:32 --> 00:25:33
			shop.
		
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35
			One walks away feeling
		
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37
			a little dirty and smelly,
		
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40
			but when one stays in the company of
		
00:25:40 --> 00:25:40
			people
		
00:25:41 --> 00:25:44
			who are speaking in a good way about
		
00:25:44 --> 00:25:44
			good things,
		
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48
			with language full of love and compassion,
		
00:25:49 --> 00:25:51
			It's like being in a room filled with
		
00:25:51 --> 00:25:51
			incense,
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54
			and the pleasant scent lingers
		
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56
			on one's person throughout the day.
		
00:25:58 --> 00:25:59
			I'm not
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:01
			all that delicate,
		
00:26:01 --> 00:26:02
			but sometimes
		
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05
			I think it really stinks out there.
		
00:26:08 --> 00:26:11
			Like the perfumed handkerchief a Victorian lady might
		
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14
			hold under her nose as she walked around
		
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16
			the open sewers flowing through the streets of
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17
			London.
		
00:26:18 --> 00:26:18
			The pleasant,
		
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22
			kind, and loving religious congregations who have opened
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24
			their doors to me in the last decade,
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27
			have made it possible for me to breathe
		
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30
			and continue to move forward.
		
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34
			So some people believe that
		
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38
			there is a choice only between fidelity to
		
00:26:38 --> 00:26:39
			one's faith tradition
		
00:26:40 --> 00:26:41
			and deep fellowship,
		
00:26:42 --> 00:26:45
			or one's faith tradition, or leaving faith altogether,
		
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48
			but I believe that's a false dichotomy.
		
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52
			Deep fellowship with people of other faiths is
		
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54
			another layer of identity
		
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57
			that we can add onto
		
00:26:58 --> 00:26:59
			our religious identity.
		
00:27:00 --> 00:27:02
			I think of it
		
00:27:02 --> 00:27:03
			like a family.
		
00:27:04 --> 00:27:05
			I have a large
		
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08
			new family, not large nuclear family,
		
00:27:09 --> 00:27:10
			7 siblings in my
		
00:27:11 --> 00:27:12
			my house,
		
00:27:13 --> 00:27:15
			but we also have a large extended family.
		
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18
			I've got lots of cousins and aunts and
		
00:27:18 --> 00:27:20
			uncles, and I don't even know whether they're
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:21
			second or third, or
		
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25
			you know, once, twice removed, or what what
		
00:27:25 --> 00:27:26
			what it is.
		
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28
			But I just know there's an awful lot
		
00:27:28 --> 00:27:29
			of of them.
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33
			And while I spend most of my time
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:34
			with
		
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37
			my brothers and sisters born from the same
		
00:27:37 --> 00:27:38
			mother and father,
		
00:27:40 --> 00:27:41
			I also go and visit
		
00:27:42 --> 00:27:43
			those other families sometimes,
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47
			and I also have some things in common,
		
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49
			not as much, but some
		
00:27:49 --> 00:27:50
			things.
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53
			And we know that somewhere back there, we
		
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55
			all come from the same place.
		
00:27:58 --> 00:27:59
			Why did god
		
00:28:00 --> 00:28:00
			give
		
00:28:01 --> 00:28:02
			us all of this diversity?
		
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06
			You know, religious diversity,
		
00:28:07 --> 00:28:07
			cultural
		
00:28:08 --> 00:28:09
			diversity, linguistic,
		
00:28:09 --> 00:28:10
			ethnic.
		
00:28:12 --> 00:28:13
			Are our collective identities
		
00:28:14 --> 00:28:14
			necessarily
		
00:28:15 --> 00:28:16
			a source of
		
00:28:17 --> 00:28:17
			conflict?
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20
			Would it be better if we were all
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21
			just the same?
		
00:28:22 --> 00:28:22
			Well,
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25
			which same would that be then?
		
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29
			Whose same would get to be the one
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:30
			we all are?
		
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33
			That's the problem, isn't it?
		
00:28:34 --> 00:28:36
			I really find so much inspiration
		
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38
			in the Qur'anic view
		
00:28:39 --> 00:28:40
			of diversity.
		
00:28:42 --> 00:28:43
			The Quran
		
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47
			came as a revelation to humanity, and it
		
00:28:47 --> 00:28:50
			also came as a revelation to a people,
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:53
			a specific people in a specific time and
		
00:28:53 --> 00:28:54
			place, and spoke,
		
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58
			you know, in addition to universal human needs,
		
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00
			to the needs of those people at that
		
00:29:00 --> 00:29:00
			time.
		
00:29:02 --> 00:29:03
			7th century Arabia
		
00:29:04 --> 00:29:05
			was a time
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:08
			when
		
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12
			collective identities were a source of great strength,
		
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16
			but also a source of great conflict.
		
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20
			If you belong to a member of a
		
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22
			tribe, you knew who you were. You knew
		
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24
			who your people were. You knew what you
		
00:29:24 --> 00:29:25
			had to do.
		
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28
			You knew that
		
00:29:28 --> 00:29:30
			they would always have your back,
		
00:29:30 --> 00:29:31
			and that
		
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34
			you would do anything to defend them.
		
00:29:34 --> 00:29:36
			But the problem was,
		
00:29:37 --> 00:29:39
			what about people from that other group?
		
00:29:40 --> 00:29:41
			Without
		
00:29:41 --> 00:29:42
			any
		
00:29:43 --> 00:29:43
			overarching
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:46
			or unifying
		
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49
			sense of human rights or human dignity,
		
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52
			it meant you could do whatever you wanted
		
00:29:52 --> 00:29:53
			with them.
		
00:29:54 --> 00:29:56
			There were no limits whatsoever.
		
00:30:01 --> 00:30:03
			What do we do with each other?
		
00:30:04 --> 00:30:06
			When it comes to religious diversity,
		
00:30:07 --> 00:30:07
			the Quran,
		
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10
			some could say, is
		
00:30:13 --> 00:30:13
			very
		
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17
			strongly in favor of religious diversity, and I
		
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20
			think there could be no better proof than
		
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23
			the passage of the Quran that mentions
		
00:30:24 --> 00:30:27
			in a few places, in a similar way,
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:29
			the statement,
		
00:30:31 --> 00:30:32
			those who believe
		
00:30:33 --> 00:30:34
			in God
		
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36
			and the last day,
		
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40
			the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians,
		
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44
			Those who believe in god in the last
		
00:30:44 --> 00:30:47
			day and do right righteous deeds, they will
		
00:30:47 --> 00:30:49
			have their reward with god. They shall not
		
00:30:49 --> 00:30:51
			fear nor shall they sorrow.
		
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54
			The recognition the Quran came with the recognition
		
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56
			that there are different religious communities
		
00:30:58 --> 00:31:00
			didn't come to wipe the slate clean,
		
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02
			to get rid of all other
		
00:31:03 --> 00:31:04
			faiths or beliefs,
		
00:31:07 --> 00:31:08
			but to
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11
			come into that world of religious diversity, to
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14
			uphold it, and to be part of it.
		
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18
			Many people say religion is the source of
		
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20
			the greatest conflict in the world.
		
00:31:21 --> 00:31:22
			They're incorrect.
		
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26
			I Historically, it's just not true.
		
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30
			It can be a source of conflict, but
		
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32
			it can also be a source of strength,
		
00:31:32 --> 00:31:33
			and we know
		
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37
			what the purpose is because God tells us
		
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39
			in the Quran, for each, we have made
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:41
			a law and a creed. If God had
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43
			wanted, he could have made you a single
		
00:31:43 --> 00:31:43
			community.
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46
			But it is his will to test you
		
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49
			regarding what has been revealed to you. So
		
00:31:49 --> 00:31:52
			compete with each other in good deeds.
		
00:31:52 --> 00:31:55
			To god is your return, all of you,
		
00:31:55 --> 00:31:55
			then
		
00:31:56 --> 00:31:58
			we, god using the royal
		
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00
			we, will inform you about those things about
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:01
			which you differed.
		
00:32:03 --> 00:32:04
			So there's a point
		
00:32:05 --> 00:32:06
			to our religious diversity.
		
00:32:06 --> 00:32:08
			The point is that
		
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11
			through the other, we can see
		
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14
			in a spirit of, kind of, friendly competitiveness
		
00:32:14 --> 00:32:15
			where we're falling short,
		
00:32:17 --> 00:32:20
			only compete in good deeds, not in a
		
00:32:20 --> 00:32:20
			bad way,
		
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25
			and within the limits of this world that
		
00:32:25 --> 00:32:26
			god has
		
00:32:27 --> 00:32:28
			set for us.
		
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32
			We're never gonna know all the answers, and
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:34
			this is why we have that faith that
		
00:32:35 --> 00:32:37
			God will inform us in the end about
		
00:32:37 --> 00:32:40
			all these matters that we differed about.
		
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43
			Our job is to do good things,
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45
			to compete and to cooperate
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:47
			in good works.
		
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57
			There are those who have interpreted the Quran
		
00:32:57 --> 00:32:58
			other ways,
		
00:32:59 --> 00:33:02
			who have made religion into a form of
		
00:33:02 --> 00:33:04
			tribalism like other forms of tribalism,
		
00:33:06 --> 00:33:08
			who see religious identity
		
00:33:09 --> 00:33:09
			as
		
00:33:10 --> 00:33:11
			another identity
		
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17
			that we simply engage in the political sphere,
		
00:33:17 --> 00:33:18
			the,
		
00:33:19 --> 00:33:19
			you know,
		
00:33:20 --> 00:33:21
			competition
		
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24
			over who's best, over who's right.
		
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27
			The question is, is this inevitable?
		
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31
			Does religion always have to devolve
		
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33
			into this kind of
		
00:33:35 --> 00:33:37
			unsightly and unpleasant conflict?
		
00:33:39 --> 00:33:40
			Some would say that
		
00:33:43 --> 00:33:45
			what's necessary is that we embrace a theological
		
00:33:46 --> 00:33:46
			pluralism
		
00:33:47 --> 00:33:48
			or a perennialism
		
00:33:48 --> 00:33:49
			even.
		
00:33:50 --> 00:33:51
			That unless
		
00:33:51 --> 00:33:52
			we
		
00:33:53 --> 00:33:55
			absolutely accept that every religion
		
00:33:57 --> 00:33:59
			is an equal path to God,
		
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01
			then we'll always be in conflict. And I
		
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04
			don't know. I think that's a, you know,
		
00:34:05 --> 00:34:06
			it's a factual claim.
		
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09
			Can there be people who
		
00:34:10 --> 00:34:11
			have a theological
		
00:34:12 --> 00:34:12
			exclusivistic
		
00:34:13 --> 00:34:15
			outlook and still uphold
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:17
			equal human dignity,
		
00:34:17 --> 00:34:19
			human rights, and citizenship?
		
00:34:23 --> 00:34:24
			I wonder.
		
00:34:24 --> 00:34:26
			I had a I remember assigning,
		
00:34:28 --> 00:34:29
			an essay
		
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32
			to my students one time, and in the
		
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34
			classroom I had a woman who was,
		
00:34:35 --> 00:34:36
			an evangelical
		
00:34:37 --> 00:34:37
			Christian,
		
00:34:38 --> 00:34:41
			who certainly believed that there is only one
		
00:34:41 --> 00:34:42
			path to salvation
		
00:34:43 --> 00:34:43
			with God.
		
00:34:45 --> 00:34:46
			She was a lovely student.
		
00:34:47 --> 00:34:50
			She participated so nicely in the class.
		
00:34:50 --> 00:34:53
			At the beginning of the essay that she
		
00:34:53 --> 00:34:54
			wrote for me, she said
		
00:34:56 --> 00:34:58
			she said, well, certainly,
		
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00
			it's true that
		
00:35:01 --> 00:35:01
			Muslims,
		
00:35:02 --> 00:35:03
			they're on the wrong path,
		
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07
			that there is salvation
		
00:35:07 --> 00:35:09
			only through Jesus Christ,
		
00:35:10 --> 00:35:10
			and
		
00:35:11 --> 00:35:12
			unless those Muslims
		
00:35:13 --> 00:35:14
			embrace
		
00:35:15 --> 00:35:15
			Jesus
		
00:35:16 --> 00:35:18
			in this way as their lord and savior,
		
00:35:18 --> 00:35:19
			that they're
		
00:35:19 --> 00:35:22
			gonna be in hellfire forever. It's a brave
		
00:35:22 --> 00:35:23
			student who would start
		
00:35:24 --> 00:35:24
			an essay
		
00:35:25 --> 00:35:26
			that way.
		
00:35:27 --> 00:35:28
			She said, but in the meantime,
		
00:35:29 --> 00:35:32
			in the she said, you know, that matters
		
00:35:32 --> 00:35:34
			for God. In the meantime, we need to
		
00:35:34 --> 00:35:36
			try to live together
		
00:35:36 --> 00:35:37
			as
		
00:35:37 --> 00:35:38
			peacefully
		
00:35:38 --> 00:35:41
			and in as much harmony and understanding as
		
00:35:41 --> 00:35:41
			possible,
		
00:35:43 --> 00:35:45
			and I just laugh so much. I love
		
00:35:45 --> 00:35:47
			that essay. I just love that essay,
		
00:35:48 --> 00:35:49
			because you know what?
		
00:35:50 --> 00:35:51
			She was a nice person. She is a
		
00:35:51 --> 00:35:52
			nice person,
		
00:35:53 --> 00:35:54
			and she got along with everyone,
		
00:35:55 --> 00:35:56
			and I don't think she ever would
		
00:35:57 --> 00:35:59
			take away my civil or political rights.
		
00:36:00 --> 00:36:01
			So maybe it's possible
		
00:36:02 --> 00:36:02
			to have,
		
00:36:03 --> 00:36:05
			you know, that kind of theological position.
		
00:36:08 --> 00:36:09
			It's probably easier
		
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13
			if there's a greater harmony between
		
00:36:13 --> 00:36:14
			our
		
00:36:14 --> 00:36:15
			theological
		
00:36:15 --> 00:36:16
			view of
		
00:36:18 --> 00:36:20
			humanity and and political perhaps,
		
00:36:21 --> 00:36:23
			but some would say it's easier just to
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:25
			get rid of religion altogether.
		
00:36:25 --> 00:36:27
			But again, I ask you
		
00:36:29 --> 00:36:31
			in a world where
		
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34
			many nation states have adopted a
		
00:36:35 --> 00:36:36
			secular ideology.
		
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41
			In the 20th century, when we review the
		
00:36:41 --> 00:36:42
			wars and conflicts,
		
00:36:43 --> 00:36:45
			when we think about the genocides
		
00:36:45 --> 00:36:46
			that have taken place?
		
00:36:48 --> 00:36:48
			Nazi Germany,
		
00:36:49 --> 00:36:50
			Rwanda,
		
00:36:52 --> 00:36:52
			how many other places?
		
00:36:55 --> 00:36:57
			How often were those done in the names
		
00:36:57 --> 00:36:59
			of ethnic purity,
		
00:37:00 --> 00:37:01
			racial purity.
		
00:37:05 --> 00:37:05
			Secularism,
		
00:37:06 --> 00:37:06
			nationalism
		
00:37:07 --> 00:37:08
			hasn't erased
		
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10
			prejudice or ended warfare
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:12
			or ended torture.
		
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17
			We still have all sorts of things
		
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21
			going on in the world. Group identities
		
00:37:21 --> 00:37:22
			that are
		
00:37:23 --> 00:37:25
			simply oppressive that have nothing to do with
		
00:37:25 --> 00:37:26
			religion.
		
00:37:28 --> 00:37:29
			So group identity
		
00:37:29 --> 00:37:32
			is a double edged sword. There's good and
		
00:37:32 --> 00:37:33
			there's bad in it.
		
00:37:34 --> 00:37:36
			Think about the various groups to which we
		
00:37:36 --> 00:37:37
			belong,
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:38
			not just religious,
		
00:37:39 --> 00:37:40
			but national or professional,
		
00:37:42 --> 00:37:43
			neighborhood associations,
		
00:37:44 --> 00:37:45
			civic organizations,
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:47
			political parties,
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:50
			all have some benefit.
		
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54
			They give us a cause greater than ourselves,
		
00:37:54 --> 00:37:55
			and, really,
		
00:37:56 --> 00:37:57
			here is this existential
		
00:37:57 --> 00:37:59
			dimension that,
		
00:37:59 --> 00:38:01
			as human beings, we know that we have
		
00:38:01 --> 00:38:03
			a limited time on this earth.
		
00:38:04 --> 00:38:06
			We all want some measure of
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09
			living forever,
		
00:38:10 --> 00:38:12
			some measure of eternity, some measure
		
00:38:12 --> 00:38:13
			of
		
00:38:15 --> 00:38:17
			ourselves continuing on. And so
		
00:38:18 --> 00:38:19
			we see
		
00:38:19 --> 00:38:23
			our aspirations, we see our identity conflated with
		
00:38:23 --> 00:38:23
			these groups
		
00:38:24 --> 00:38:25
			that will continue
		
00:38:26 --> 00:38:27
			will continue
		
00:38:28 --> 00:38:29
			the actions,
		
00:38:29 --> 00:38:30
			the ideas
		
00:38:34 --> 00:38:36
			that belong and that shape this group identity.
		
00:38:38 --> 00:38:40
			This can lead to such a problem.
		
00:38:41 --> 00:38:43
			The problem is that it becomes
		
00:38:44 --> 00:38:45
			really what we worship,
		
00:38:46 --> 00:38:48
			where our group becomes
		
00:38:48 --> 00:38:49
			the idol
		
00:38:50 --> 00:38:51
			at which we sacrifice
		
00:38:51 --> 00:38:52
			everything.
		
00:38:53 --> 00:38:54
			The pre Islamic
		
00:38:55 --> 00:38:56
			Arabs
		
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59
			before Islam came knew about this.
		
00:39:00 --> 00:39:02
			They had very strong group identity.
		
00:39:05 --> 00:39:08
			They knew that the most important thing was
		
00:39:08 --> 00:39:10
			to sacrifice the self for the sake of
		
00:39:10 --> 00:39:11
			the group.
		
00:39:12 --> 00:39:14
			There were no rights
		
00:39:14 --> 00:39:16
			outside of those granted
		
00:39:17 --> 00:39:17
			by
		
00:39:18 --> 00:39:19
			the leaders of the tribe.
		
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23
			Safety for anyone else was only negotiated
		
00:39:23 --> 00:39:25
			and contracted, not innate.
		
00:39:25 --> 00:39:28
			It was might that made right.
		
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31
			And in a world where might makes right,
		
00:39:31 --> 00:39:33
			it is the warrior who is the most
		
00:39:33 --> 00:39:33
			celebrated.
		
00:39:35 --> 00:39:35
			That is
		
00:39:37 --> 00:39:38
			why the strong,
		
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41
			mature man, the adult male,
		
00:39:41 --> 00:39:43
			is the one who had all the privileges
		
00:39:45 --> 00:39:45
			in
		
00:39:46 --> 00:39:47
			this tribal culture,
		
00:39:47 --> 00:39:49
			in this warrior culture.
		
00:39:50 --> 00:39:51
			And it was that man
		
00:39:52 --> 00:39:52
			who
		
00:39:53 --> 00:39:55
			would use force and violence
		
00:39:56 --> 00:39:58
			to make sure that they were
		
00:39:58 --> 00:39:59
			the dominant ones.
		
00:40:02 --> 00:40:05
			There have always been those who have spoken
		
00:40:05 --> 00:40:06
			about winners and losers,
		
00:40:10 --> 00:40:12
			That those who succeed are the winners.
		
00:40:13 --> 00:40:14
			That
		
00:40:14 --> 00:40:15
			being right
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19
			just means that you were successful.
		
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23
			And what does that mean for all of
		
00:40:23 --> 00:40:23
			those
		
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26
			who are not in that group or those
		
00:40:26 --> 00:40:28
			who are within the group, but unable
		
00:40:29 --> 00:40:30
			or
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:31
			not permitted
		
00:40:32 --> 00:40:33
			to perform at that level?
		
00:40:34 --> 00:40:35
			Women,
		
00:40:35 --> 00:40:36
			slaves,
		
00:40:38 --> 00:40:39
			the unaffiliated
		
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41
			person, the stranger, the migrant.
		
00:40:50 --> 00:40:51
			But we argue
		
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55
			we have an identity in our group, and
		
00:40:55 --> 00:40:55
			we
		
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59
			we love our group. We love our people.
		
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01
			We love our community. We love our nation.
		
00:41:03 --> 00:41:05
			Mohammed Iqbal, who was a,
		
00:41:06 --> 00:41:07
			19th century
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:10
			19th into the 20th century Indian,
		
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13
			Muslim philosopher and intellectual,
		
00:41:14 --> 00:41:16
			he was one of the people who advocated
		
00:41:16 --> 00:41:17
			for the establishment
		
00:41:17 --> 00:41:18
			of Pakistan
		
00:41:19 --> 00:41:20
			as a
		
00:41:20 --> 00:41:23
			nation state, as a modern nation state.
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26
			And it wasn't because of religious prejudice
		
00:41:27 --> 00:41:29
			that he did this, but because they were
		
00:41:29 --> 00:41:31
			a minority in India.
		
00:41:32 --> 00:41:34
			The Muslims were a minority, and he
		
00:41:35 --> 00:41:36
			felt that it was
		
00:41:36 --> 00:41:39
			so important to really uphold the,
		
00:41:40 --> 00:41:42
			not only the security of that group,
		
00:41:43 --> 00:41:44
			but
		
00:41:44 --> 00:41:47
			to celebrate and pass on the traditions and
		
00:41:47 --> 00:41:49
			culture. He said, I love the communal group,
		
00:41:49 --> 00:41:51
			which is the source of my life and
		
00:41:51 --> 00:41:52
			behavior,
		
00:41:52 --> 00:41:53
			which has formed
		
00:41:54 --> 00:41:56
			me, what I am by giving me its
		
00:41:56 --> 00:41:59
			religion, its literature, its thought, its culture,
		
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03
			and thereby recreating its whole past as a
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:06
			living operative factor in my present consciousness.
		
00:42:09 --> 00:42:11
			Well, Pakistan was formed,
		
00:42:12 --> 00:42:13
			and
		
00:42:14 --> 00:42:17
			having that communal identity did not end the
		
00:42:17 --> 00:42:17
			problems.
		
00:42:20 --> 00:42:22
			Like every other nation state, and indeed,
		
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27
			the founding of nation states based on identity,
		
00:42:27 --> 00:42:28
			based on these
		
00:42:29 --> 00:42:29
			mythic
		
00:42:30 --> 00:42:30
			collective
		
00:42:33 --> 00:42:34
			histories and memories
		
00:42:35 --> 00:42:36
			has only exacerbated
		
00:42:37 --> 00:42:38
			in many places the injustice,
		
00:42:40 --> 00:42:40
			because
		
00:42:41 --> 00:42:42
			you never have a land
		
00:42:43 --> 00:42:44
			that is homogeneous,
		
00:42:44 --> 00:42:48
			you know, only with one kind of person.
		
00:42:53 --> 00:42:55
			How do we get around this?
		
00:42:58 --> 00:43:00
			We have to remember that
		
00:43:00 --> 00:43:01
			these collectivities
		
00:43:01 --> 00:43:03
			are not ends in themselves.
		
00:43:03 --> 00:43:04
			These identities
		
00:43:05 --> 00:43:06
			are not
		
00:43:07 --> 00:43:08
			the thing that we
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:09
			worship.
		
00:43:11 --> 00:43:13
			We cannot let our religion become another form
		
00:43:13 --> 00:43:14
			of tribalism.
		
00:43:15 --> 00:43:16
			It's beneficial
		
00:43:18 --> 00:43:19
			in many ways,
		
00:43:21 --> 00:43:22
			but it is always
		
00:43:24 --> 00:43:25
			creates the possibility
		
00:43:27 --> 00:43:27
			for
		
00:43:29 --> 00:43:30
			an ideological
		
00:43:31 --> 00:43:31
			collectivity.
		
00:43:34 --> 00:43:35
			The Quran addresses
		
00:43:36 --> 00:43:38
			human diversity, not only
		
00:43:39 --> 00:43:41
			religious diversity, but all of these other
		
00:43:42 --> 00:43:45
			forms of being in the world that
		
00:43:48 --> 00:43:48
			are at the
		
00:43:53 --> 00:43:54
			border of our
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:55
			conflicts
		
00:43:56 --> 00:43:58
			and our pain and of our oppression.
		
00:43:59 --> 00:44:00
			The Quran says,
		
00:44:01 --> 00:44:04
			and among his wonders is this, meaning god's
		
00:44:04 --> 00:44:06
			wonders, he creates you out of dust, and
		
00:44:06 --> 00:44:09
			then low, you become human beings ranging
		
00:44:09 --> 00:44:10
			far and wide.
		
00:44:10 --> 00:44:13
			And among his wonders is this, he creates
		
00:44:13 --> 00:44:15
			for you mates from your own selves,
		
00:44:16 --> 00:44:17
			so that you might incline
		
00:44:22 --> 00:44:24
			behold, our messages for people who think, and
		
00:44:24 --> 00:44:25
			among his wonders
		
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28
			is the creation of the heavens and the
		
00:44:28 --> 00:44:29
			earth,
		
00:44:29 --> 00:44:30
			and the diversity
		
00:44:31 --> 00:44:32
			of your tongues and colors.
		
00:44:33 --> 00:44:35
			For in this, behold, there are messages indeed
		
00:44:35 --> 00:44:37
			for all who are possessed of innate knowledge.
		
00:44:38 --> 00:44:41
			The diversity of our colors, our languages,
		
00:44:43 --> 00:44:44
			all of these things
		
00:44:45 --> 00:44:48
			are created by god as it's just simply
		
00:44:48 --> 00:44:49
			part of the natural world.
		
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52
			We have to accept
		
00:44:52 --> 00:44:54
			that we are part of this nature.
		
00:44:55 --> 00:44:57
			Yes. We are not only human beings, but
		
00:44:57 --> 00:45:00
			we're also created beings, and like other created
		
00:45:00 --> 00:45:01
			beings,
		
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04
			are all subject to the command
		
00:45:04 --> 00:45:05
			of god.
		
00:45:08 --> 00:45:11
			The Quran says, behold people, we have created
		
00:45:11 --> 00:45:12
			you out of a male and a female
		
00:45:12 --> 00:45:14
			and have made you into nations and tribes
		
00:45:14 --> 00:45:16
			so you so that you may come to
		
00:45:16 --> 00:45:17
			know one another
		
00:45:18 --> 00:45:20
			so that you may come to know one
		
00:45:20 --> 00:45:21
			another.
		
00:45:21 --> 00:45:22
			Our diversity
		
00:45:23 --> 00:45:25
			helps us understand who we are. We see
		
00:45:25 --> 00:45:27
			ourselves reflected in the other,
		
00:45:31 --> 00:45:33
			And when I meet you
		
00:45:34 --> 00:45:35
			and I treat you
		
00:45:37 --> 00:45:39
			in a way that is loving and caring,
		
00:45:39 --> 00:45:41
			I come to know myself as a loving
		
00:45:41 --> 00:45:44
			and caring person. And when I meet you
		
00:45:44 --> 00:45:46
			and I meet the other,
		
00:45:46 --> 00:45:49
			and treat the other in a way that
		
00:45:49 --> 00:45:50
			is dismissive,
		
00:45:50 --> 00:45:51
			that is aggressive,
		
00:45:51 --> 00:45:52
			that is discriminatory,
		
00:45:53 --> 00:45:54
			I come to know something
		
00:45:55 --> 00:45:56
			about myself too.
		
00:45:58 --> 00:46:01
			We can never escape being in these
		
00:46:02 --> 00:46:03
			collectivities.
		
00:46:04 --> 00:46:07
			We need them. We need to gather together.
		
00:46:07 --> 00:46:08
			We need to support each other,
		
00:46:09 --> 00:46:10
			but they're not in the end
		
00:46:12 --> 00:46:13
			ends in themselves.
		
00:46:14 --> 00:46:17
			In his final sermon, the prophet Muhammad said,
		
00:46:17 --> 00:46:20
			all humanity is from Adam and Eve.
		
00:46:20 --> 00:46:22
			An Arab has no superiority
		
00:46:22 --> 00:46:24
			over a non Arab,
		
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27
			nor a non Arab has any superiority over
		
00:46:27 --> 00:46:29
			an Arab, and also a white
		
00:46:29 --> 00:46:31
			has no superiority
		
00:46:32 --> 00:46:34
			over a black or a black over a
		
00:46:36 --> 00:46:38
			white. We hear that,
		
00:46:39 --> 00:46:42
			and we know that, yet it's so hard
		
00:46:42 --> 00:46:44
			for us to do the right thing still.
		
00:46:45 --> 00:46:46
			We are flawed human beings,
		
00:46:49 --> 00:46:50
			and we need to
		
00:46:52 --> 00:46:55
			be open to that criticism, to understand
		
00:46:58 --> 00:47:00
			when we have simply
		
00:47:00 --> 00:47:02
			fallen back to the safety and security
		
00:47:03 --> 00:47:04
			of our group.
		
00:47:04 --> 00:47:06
			The American poet, Daniel Ladinsky,
		
00:47:07 --> 00:47:09
			translates a poem of the great 14th century
		
00:47:09 --> 00:47:11
			Persian master poet, Hafiz.
		
00:47:12 --> 00:47:13
			He says this,
		
00:47:14 --> 00:47:15
			burn
		
00:47:15 --> 00:47:17
			every address for God.
		
00:47:18 --> 00:47:21
			Any beloved who has just one color of
		
00:47:21 --> 00:47:22
			hair,
		
00:47:22 --> 00:47:23
			one gender,
		
00:47:24 --> 00:47:25
			one race,
		
00:47:26 --> 00:47:27
			the same suntan
		
00:47:27 --> 00:47:28
			all the time,
		
00:47:29 --> 00:47:30
			one rule book.
		
00:47:31 --> 00:47:34
			Trust me when I say that man is
		
00:47:34 --> 00:47:36
			not even half a god,
		
00:47:37 --> 00:47:39
			and we will only cause you grief.
		
00:47:40 --> 00:47:43
			We make gods out of our collectivities.
		
00:47:45 --> 00:47:46
			But in the end,
		
00:47:46 --> 00:47:49
			even though we gather in certain lands,
		
00:47:50 --> 00:47:52
			and we come to love those lands and
		
00:47:52 --> 00:47:55
			the people around us, the reality is that
		
00:47:55 --> 00:47:56
			human dignity
		
00:47:57 --> 00:47:58
			is tied to mobility,
		
00:47:59 --> 00:48:00
			to displacement,
		
00:48:02 --> 00:48:04
			to breaking up our collectivities
		
00:48:04 --> 00:48:07
			and coming and being open to joining with
		
00:48:07 --> 00:48:07
			new people,
		
00:48:08 --> 00:48:09
			and
		
00:48:10 --> 00:48:13
			working for their safety and security in the
		
00:48:13 --> 00:48:15
			midst of the dignity of all humanity. The
		
00:48:15 --> 00:48:17
			Quran says, we have conferred
		
00:48:17 --> 00:48:18
			dignity
		
00:48:18 --> 00:48:20
			upon the children of Adam
		
00:48:20 --> 00:48:22
			and born them over land and sea,
		
00:48:23 --> 00:48:25
			and provided them sustenance
		
00:48:25 --> 00:48:27
			out of the good things of life, and
		
00:48:27 --> 00:48:29
			favored them above much of our creation.
		
00:48:30 --> 00:48:31
			Humanity
		
00:48:31 --> 00:48:33
			has always been on the move
		
00:48:34 --> 00:48:35
			from the time that our ancestors
		
00:48:36 --> 00:48:38
			first moved out of Africa,
		
00:48:39 --> 00:48:41
			and all across into Asia,
		
00:48:41 --> 00:48:44
			and across into Europe, and across into North
		
00:48:44 --> 00:48:46
			America, and South America,
		
00:48:47 --> 00:48:48
			and the Pacific,
		
00:48:49 --> 00:48:50
			and Australia,
		
00:48:51 --> 00:48:52
			and New Zealand.
		
00:48:54 --> 00:48:57
			We're always moving, and we're always finding ways
		
00:48:57 --> 00:49:01
			to expand ourselves, and we're always coming into
		
00:49:01 --> 00:49:03
			contact with new kinds of people.
		
00:49:04 --> 00:49:06
			And it can be anxiety producing.
		
00:49:08 --> 00:49:09
			We want to just go
		
00:49:10 --> 00:49:12
			back to the warmth of our
		
00:49:13 --> 00:49:13
			our home,
		
00:49:14 --> 00:49:14
			our
		
00:49:15 --> 00:49:18
			mother's house, our place where we grew up.
		
00:49:20 --> 00:49:22
			We have as human beings
		
00:49:26 --> 00:49:27
			landscapes of the soul.
		
00:49:27 --> 00:49:30
			This is an expression that
		
00:49:30 --> 00:49:31
			my professor,
		
00:49:32 --> 00:49:33
			my Ukrainian
		
00:49:33 --> 00:49:36
			professor of classical Arabic poetry,
		
00:49:36 --> 00:49:37
			Yaroslav Stakevich,
		
00:49:38 --> 00:49:39
			wonderful,
		
00:49:40 --> 00:49:41
			brilliant man
		
00:49:41 --> 00:49:44
			at the University of Chicago. He he
		
00:49:44 --> 00:49:46
			he spoke about and wrote about in one
		
00:49:46 --> 00:49:49
			of his books. He talks about Arcadia,
		
00:49:49 --> 00:49:52
			that for the Greco Roman poets of antiquity
		
00:49:52 --> 00:49:54
			is the landscape of the soul.
		
00:49:56 --> 00:49:56
			So too,
		
00:49:57 --> 00:49:59
			in every culture and in every community,
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:01
			there is that
		
00:50:01 --> 00:50:02
			that landscape
		
00:50:03 --> 00:50:05
			that's tied to memory and family,
		
00:50:06 --> 00:50:06
			homeland,
		
00:50:08 --> 00:50:11
			and it becomes a symbol of the purity
		
00:50:11 --> 00:50:12
			of youth. It becomes a
		
00:50:13 --> 00:50:14
			symbol of
		
00:50:14 --> 00:50:16
			the warmth and comfort of home,
		
00:50:17 --> 00:50:18
			and that's natural,
		
00:50:20 --> 00:50:21
			But we have to grow up.
		
00:50:23 --> 00:50:25
			We have to grow up and remember that
		
00:50:25 --> 00:50:26
			there is no
		
00:50:26 --> 00:50:27
			way back
		
00:50:28 --> 00:50:30
			onto our mother's lap. We have to become
		
00:50:30 --> 00:50:31
			adults,
		
00:50:31 --> 00:50:33
			and it's time for us
		
00:50:33 --> 00:50:34
			to take responsibility
		
00:50:36 --> 00:50:37
			for building
		
00:50:37 --> 00:50:38
			new homes,
		
00:50:39 --> 00:50:39
			and
		
00:50:40 --> 00:50:41
			to for us to be the one who
		
00:50:41 --> 00:50:43
			cooks for the neighbor
		
00:50:43 --> 00:50:44
			and invites them in.
		
00:50:46 --> 00:50:48
			There are a lot of challenges today.
		
00:50:50 --> 00:50:52
			You know, it's not a difficult time,
		
00:50:52 --> 00:50:54
			but I'm sure that people who lived a
		
00:50:54 --> 00:50:55
			100 years ago,
		
00:50:56 --> 00:50:59
			or 200, or 500, or 1000 years ago,
		
00:50:59 --> 00:51:02
			if they heard us complaining, they'd say, boy,
		
00:51:02 --> 00:51:04
			oh boy, you think you've got it tough.
		
00:51:06 --> 00:51:08
			So at the same time, we have to
		
00:51:08 --> 00:51:09
			be so grateful,
		
00:51:09 --> 00:51:10
			so grateful to God
		
00:51:11 --> 00:51:12
			for the time
		
00:51:12 --> 00:51:15
			we have, for the resources we have,
		
00:51:15 --> 00:51:16
			for
		
00:51:16 --> 00:51:17
			what our ancestors
		
00:51:18 --> 00:51:18
			have built,
		
00:51:20 --> 00:51:22
			civil rights, human rights,
		
00:51:23 --> 00:51:24
			all of the things that so many have
		
00:51:24 --> 00:51:26
			fought for so that we could come to
		
00:51:26 --> 00:51:29
			this place today and still deal with our
		
00:51:29 --> 00:51:30
			humanity.
		
00:51:31 --> 00:51:32
			Still deal with it.
		
00:51:34 --> 00:51:37
			We're never over. We're always in the process
		
00:51:37 --> 00:51:39
			of becoming the people who we need to
		
00:51:39 --> 00:51:40
			be,
		
00:51:41 --> 00:51:43
			and it'll never be we will never be
		
00:51:43 --> 00:51:44
			perfected
		
00:51:44 --> 00:51:46
			until, God willing,
		
00:51:47 --> 00:51:48
			we are
		
00:51:49 --> 00:51:50
			in the
		
00:51:51 --> 00:51:51
			presence
		
00:51:52 --> 00:51:54
			of the divine and most compassionate
		
00:51:54 --> 00:51:55
			and loving
		
00:51:56 --> 00:51:57
			source of all being.
		
00:51:58 --> 00:51:59
			But in the meantime,
		
00:52:02 --> 00:52:03
			let's try to reflect
		
00:52:03 --> 00:52:04
			that compassion
		
00:52:04 --> 00:52:06
			and reflect that kindness
		
00:52:07 --> 00:52:08
			and be like
		
00:52:08 --> 00:52:09
			the prophets.
		
00:52:10 --> 00:52:12
			Address what's wrong,
		
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15
			but don't let it change us, and we
		
00:52:15 --> 00:52:16
			become
		
00:52:17 --> 00:52:19
			distorted mirrors of ourselves.
		
00:52:19 --> 00:52:20
			Thank you.
		
00:52:31 --> 00:52:32
			I believe we have a little time,
		
00:52:34 --> 00:52:35
			for discussion
		
00:52:35 --> 00:52:36
			now,
		
00:52:37 --> 00:52:40
			and miss Chateka is going to bring around
		
00:52:43 --> 00:52:43
			microphone
		
00:52:44 --> 00:52:46
			if you wish to make a comment or
		
00:52:46 --> 00:52:47
			ask a question.
		
00:53:02 --> 00:53:05
			And just because I said we should we
		
00:53:05 --> 00:53:07
			should be careful how we speak, You can
		
00:53:07 --> 00:53:08
			be
		
00:53:09 --> 00:53:10
			you can say something,
		
00:53:11 --> 00:53:12
			if you have a hard question
		
00:53:13 --> 00:53:14
			or something
		
00:53:15 --> 00:53:15
			that's
		
00:53:16 --> 00:53:19
			disturbing you, please feel free to speak. It's
		
00:53:19 --> 00:53:21
			a safe space space for discussion.
		
00:53:22 --> 00:53:23
			Salaam. Thank you. So,
		
00:53:24 --> 00:53:26
			a lot of what you talked about was
		
00:53:26 --> 00:53:27
			the process through which,
		
00:53:30 --> 00:53:32
			particularly looking at the Muslim community, how we
		
00:53:32 --> 00:53:34
			should not respond to hate with hate.
		
00:53:35 --> 00:53:36
			I had recently read,
		
00:53:37 --> 00:53:38
			or reread,
		
00:53:38 --> 00:53:40
			Martin Luther King's letter from Birmingham Jail where
		
00:53:40 --> 00:53:42
			he says the the first step,
		
00:53:43 --> 00:53:46
			in this case, particularly for nonviolent noncooperation
		
00:53:46 --> 00:53:47
			is,
		
00:53:48 --> 00:53:49
			self purification.
		
00:53:50 --> 00:53:50
			Mhmm.
		
00:53:51 --> 00:53:53
			So now I I can say, okay. My
		
00:53:53 --> 00:53:56
			my my first step is not to respond
		
00:53:56 --> 00:53:58
			to hate with hate, but how does that
		
00:53:58 --> 00:54:00
			then actualize in in a process of self
		
00:54:00 --> 00:54:01
			purification?
		
00:54:05 --> 00:54:07
			Yes. That's a great question.
		
00:54:08 --> 00:54:08
			Here,
		
00:54:09 --> 00:54:11
			and I'm gonna speak about it a little
		
00:54:11 --> 00:54:12
			bit more tomorrow.
		
00:54:12 --> 00:54:13
			It really is,
		
00:54:14 --> 00:54:16
			I think one of the most effective things
		
00:54:17 --> 00:54:17
			is
		
00:54:18 --> 00:54:19
			is to shift perspective.
		
00:54:20 --> 00:54:21
			So
		
00:54:21 --> 00:54:23
			to look at to look at ourselves,
		
00:54:24 --> 00:54:26
			who we are in all of our being,
		
00:54:27 --> 00:54:29
			and there's not one of us
		
00:54:31 --> 00:54:34
			that is not in a position of power
		
00:54:34 --> 00:54:35
			or dominance
		
00:54:35 --> 00:54:37
			over someone or something.
		
00:54:38 --> 00:54:40
			Right? So when we feel
		
00:54:40 --> 00:54:41
			when we suffer
		
00:54:42 --> 00:54:43
			from
		
00:54:44 --> 00:54:46
			from the dominance of others or from the
		
00:54:46 --> 00:54:47
			oppression of others,
		
00:54:50 --> 00:54:51
			that is a lesson
		
00:54:52 --> 00:54:55
			in a human state that we all
		
00:54:56 --> 00:54:57
			occupy
		
00:54:57 --> 00:54:57
			sometimes.
		
00:54:59 --> 00:55:02
			And so rather than seeing the evil only
		
00:55:02 --> 00:55:05
			outside ourselves, we have to examine ourselves, closely
		
00:55:05 --> 00:55:06
			examine ourselves,
		
00:55:07 --> 00:55:08
			what in me
		
00:55:09 --> 00:55:09
			is
		
00:55:10 --> 00:55:12
			also part of that
		
00:55:13 --> 00:55:14
			way of being in the world.
		
00:55:16 --> 00:55:17
			You know, we are parents,
		
00:55:18 --> 00:55:19
			we are employers,
		
00:55:21 --> 00:55:21
			we are
		
00:55:22 --> 00:55:23
			pet owners,
		
00:55:24 --> 00:55:25
			We
		
00:55:27 --> 00:55:28
			are people who,
		
00:55:29 --> 00:55:31
			are empowered in the world.
		
00:55:31 --> 00:55:32
			No matter
		
00:55:33 --> 00:55:36
			how much of our reality is about being,
		
00:55:37 --> 00:55:38
			you know, or we perceive
		
00:55:40 --> 00:55:40
			to be
		
00:55:41 --> 00:55:42
			dominated by others.
		
00:55:43 --> 00:55:44
			And so when we
		
00:55:45 --> 00:55:46
			look
		
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49
			that way, when we take this action, the
		
00:55:49 --> 00:55:51
			prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said, when
		
00:55:51 --> 00:55:54
			you see someone who has more, look to
		
00:55:54 --> 00:55:55
			someone who has less.
		
00:55:56 --> 00:55:58
			So it's this double action.
		
00:55:58 --> 00:56:00
			I see the one who has more
		
00:56:01 --> 00:56:02
			more power,
		
00:56:02 --> 00:56:03
			more voice,
		
00:56:03 --> 00:56:04
			more dominance,
		
00:56:05 --> 00:56:07
			and then I make the shift.
		
00:56:07 --> 00:56:09
			I look this way, and I turn the
		
00:56:09 --> 00:56:11
			other way, and I say, who has less
		
00:56:11 --> 00:56:11
			than me?
		
00:56:12 --> 00:56:14
			Because there will be always someone who has
		
00:56:14 --> 00:56:16
			not only more stuff,
		
00:56:16 --> 00:56:18
			but more power than me, more privilege than
		
00:56:18 --> 00:56:21
			me, more voice than me, and I have
		
00:56:21 --> 00:56:24
			to turn the other way and look for
		
00:56:24 --> 00:56:26
			those who have less. And when I do
		
00:56:26 --> 00:56:26
			that,
		
00:56:27 --> 00:56:29
			what I'm probably gonna find is a deeper
		
00:56:29 --> 00:56:30
			level
		
00:56:30 --> 00:56:32
			of structural violence,
		
00:56:33 --> 00:56:34
			a deeper level
		
00:56:34 --> 00:56:36
			of structural injustice
		
00:56:37 --> 00:56:37
			that
		
00:56:38 --> 00:56:38
			is,
		
00:56:40 --> 00:56:42
			you know, that provides the foundation
		
00:56:43 --> 00:56:44
			for all of us,
		
00:56:46 --> 00:56:47
			to be in this state where we're not
		
00:56:47 --> 00:56:50
			able to realize our full humanity and dignity.
		
00:56:50 --> 00:56:53
			And so it's not a question of pragmatism
		
00:56:53 --> 00:56:56
			that I'm just making an alliance with another
		
00:56:56 --> 00:56:56
			group
		
00:56:56 --> 00:56:59
			in order to strengthen my group, right, in
		
00:56:59 --> 00:57:01
			order to strengthen the voice of my group,
		
00:57:02 --> 00:57:04
			but to really understand at a at a
		
00:57:04 --> 00:57:05
			much deeper level
		
00:57:05 --> 00:57:06
			that we're all participating
		
00:57:07 --> 00:57:10
			in forms of of violence that we need
		
00:57:10 --> 00:57:12
			to dismantle at the deepest level.
		
00:57:27 --> 00:57:29
			Thank you. Maybe just on that last point,
		
00:57:30 --> 00:57:31
			doesn't conflict
		
00:57:32 --> 00:57:32
			begin
		
00:57:34 --> 00:57:36
			when brother rises up against brother?
		
00:57:37 --> 00:57:39
			Even before we break in to different groups
		
00:57:39 --> 00:57:41
			right in the very core
		
00:57:41 --> 00:57:42
			of the family, you have
		
00:57:43 --> 00:57:45
			Cain and Abel in in the bible. I
		
00:57:45 --> 00:57:46
			think in
		
00:57:46 --> 00:57:48
			Islamic tradition, it's,
		
00:57:49 --> 00:57:50
			you know, very early on,
		
00:57:51 --> 00:57:52
			there is
		
00:57:52 --> 00:57:53
			that kind of fratricidal
		
00:57:55 --> 00:57:56
			splitting, factioning.
		
00:57:56 --> 00:57:58
			Isn't that at the origin even of the,
		
00:57:58 --> 00:57:59
			you know, the,
		
00:58:01 --> 00:58:02
			Shiite and
		
00:58:06 --> 00:58:08
			so I just wonder to what extent
		
00:58:09 --> 00:58:12
			your comments which are, you know, extremely
		
00:58:13 --> 00:58:15
			attractive and, you know,
		
00:58:15 --> 00:58:18
			the need to accept difference, is that going
		
00:58:18 --> 00:58:19
			to address
		
00:58:19 --> 00:58:21
			the roots of violence
		
00:58:23 --> 00:58:26
			where even same and same are already in
		
00:58:26 --> 00:58:27
			in a conflict situation
		
00:58:28 --> 00:58:29
			with one another.
		
00:58:31 --> 00:58:33
			Right. Abs absolutely.
		
00:58:33 --> 00:58:35
			I mean, you this
		
00:58:36 --> 00:58:38
			you're getting to the heart of what it
		
00:58:38 --> 00:58:40
			means to be a human being, A human
		
00:58:40 --> 00:58:41
			being who
		
00:58:44 --> 00:58:45
			who in the end
		
00:58:45 --> 00:58:47
			is aware at some level,
		
00:58:48 --> 00:58:48
			maybe only unconsciously,
		
00:58:49 --> 00:58:50
			that
		
00:58:52 --> 00:58:54
			that we don't have control. We don't have
		
00:58:54 --> 00:58:55
			power.
		
00:58:56 --> 00:58:56
			And
		
00:58:57 --> 00:58:59
			and this is, I believe, the root of
		
00:58:59 --> 00:59:01
			violence. The root of violence is the need
		
00:59:01 --> 00:59:04
			to feel empowered because in the end,
		
00:59:06 --> 00:59:07
			we're all losers
		
00:59:08 --> 00:59:08
			if
		
00:59:09 --> 00:59:10
			winning means
		
00:59:11 --> 00:59:12
			to
		
00:59:13 --> 00:59:15
			to be in control because we'll all die.
		
00:59:16 --> 00:59:16
			Right?
		
00:59:17 --> 00:59:19
			So this is why the, you know, the
		
00:59:19 --> 00:59:22
			question about what the goal of our existence
		
00:59:22 --> 00:59:23
			is is is so
		
00:59:27 --> 00:59:29
			important. In the Puranic story
		
00:59:29 --> 00:59:30
			when
		
00:59:30 --> 00:59:31
			the 2 brothers
		
00:59:31 --> 00:59:33
			of or the 2 sons of Adam
		
00:59:34 --> 00:59:35
			are in disagreement,
		
00:59:38 --> 00:59:41
			the one who ends up being killed says
		
00:59:41 --> 00:59:43
			to his brother, if you will
		
00:59:44 --> 00:59:46
			stretch out your hand towards me in violence,
		
00:59:46 --> 00:59:50
			I will not stretch my hand out towards
		
00:59:50 --> 00:59:50
			you.
		
00:59:51 --> 00:59:52
			He did not want to take on that
		
00:59:52 --> 00:59:55
			sin, and so this this accords with this
		
00:59:55 --> 00:59:58
			Quranic passage that do not let the hatred
		
00:59:58 --> 00:59:58
			of others
		
00:59:59 --> 01:00:00
			let you
		
01:00:01 --> 01:00:01
			swerve
		
01:00:01 --> 01:00:02
			from,
		
01:00:03 --> 01:00:03
			justice.
		
01:00:04 --> 01:00:06
			So to be just yourself that this is
		
01:00:06 --> 01:00:08
			the most this is the primordial
		
01:00:09 --> 01:00:09
			challenge.
		
01:00:12 --> 01:00:15
			You know, we feel not only disempowered,
		
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16
			but we feel that
		
01:00:17 --> 01:00:17
			that
		
01:00:20 --> 01:00:21
			people don't recognize
		
01:00:22 --> 01:00:23
			our dignity.
		
01:00:24 --> 01:00:24
			And
		
01:00:24 --> 01:00:27
			if we if we go back even deeper
		
01:00:27 --> 01:00:28
			or earlier
		
01:00:28 --> 01:00:30
			than than the sons of Adam, we could
		
01:00:30 --> 01:00:31
			go to Satan
		
01:00:33 --> 01:00:33
			and Adam,
		
01:00:34 --> 01:00:35
			the very creation
		
01:00:35 --> 01:00:38
			of the world, the creation of sentient beings.
		
01:00:39 --> 01:00:40
			So in the quranic story,
		
01:00:41 --> 01:00:42
			what is
		
01:00:43 --> 01:00:44
			why is Satan so angry?
		
01:00:45 --> 01:00:46
			Satan is angry
		
01:00:47 --> 01:00:48
			because
		
01:00:48 --> 01:00:50
			he believes that god unjustly,
		
01:00:52 --> 01:00:53
			unfairly
		
01:00:54 --> 01:00:54
			gave
		
01:00:55 --> 01:00:56
			humanity, gave Adam
		
01:00:58 --> 01:01:00
			precedence in creation
		
01:01:00 --> 01:01:02
			when he was better. So in the Quran,
		
01:01:02 --> 01:01:05
			Satan says, I'm better than him.
		
01:01:06 --> 01:01:09
			I am better than him. Now
		
01:01:11 --> 01:01:12
			the problem is that,
		
01:01:13 --> 01:01:15
			you know, our very beings, of course, wouldn't
		
01:01:15 --> 01:01:18
			exist without God's creation. So it's this sense
		
01:01:18 --> 01:01:19
			of
		
01:01:20 --> 01:01:22
			being entitled
		
01:01:22 --> 01:01:23
			to
		
01:01:23 --> 01:01:24
			life, being entitled
		
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28
			to power, being entitled to position,
		
01:01:28 --> 01:01:32
			where when in in the at the very
		
01:01:32 --> 01:01:33
			beginning, at the very foundation,
		
01:01:34 --> 01:01:36
			we wouldn't even have existence
		
01:01:36 --> 01:01:38
			if God hadn't willed us into existence.
		
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42
			So so the sense of entitlement
		
01:01:43 --> 01:01:45
			and the and the feeling that the the
		
01:01:45 --> 01:01:46
			recognition
		
01:01:46 --> 01:01:47
			that
		
01:01:48 --> 01:01:48
			in the
		
01:01:48 --> 01:01:50
			end, none of this is in our control
		
01:01:51 --> 01:01:52
			are the 2,
		
01:01:53 --> 01:01:55
			basic stages that bring us
		
01:01:56 --> 01:01:57
			to to acts of violence.
		
01:02:08 --> 01:02:10
			And let me just just say finally, this
		
01:02:10 --> 01:02:11
			is why,
		
01:02:11 --> 01:02:14
			you know, the the comment about self purification,
		
01:02:16 --> 01:02:19
			we hear very often, we hear sometimes
		
01:02:19 --> 01:02:20
			people
		
01:02:20 --> 01:02:22
			say, no peace without justice.
		
01:02:22 --> 01:02:23
			Right?
		
01:02:24 --> 01:02:26
			Or no justice without peace.
		
01:02:27 --> 01:02:29
			Certainly the spiritual position
		
01:02:30 --> 01:02:31
			is that while we work for justice,
		
01:02:33 --> 01:02:36
			it does our peace does not depend on
		
01:02:36 --> 01:02:36
			justice.
		
01:02:38 --> 01:02:39
			The root,
		
01:02:39 --> 01:02:42
			you know, the the basic root for Islam
		
01:02:43 --> 01:02:44
			is related to
		
01:02:45 --> 01:02:47
			peace. It's it's a surrender to the reality
		
01:02:47 --> 01:02:49
			that god has determined.
		
01:02:49 --> 01:02:51
			And so while we
		
01:02:51 --> 01:02:53
			while we struggle for justice,
		
01:02:53 --> 01:02:56
			it is always within the limits of what
		
01:02:56 --> 01:02:58
			it means to be a person at peace
		
01:02:58 --> 01:02:59
			with,
		
01:03:00 --> 01:03:01
			what god has determined
		
01:03:02 --> 01:03:03
			in the universe.
		
01:03:03 --> 01:03:05
			And so that really,
		
01:03:05 --> 01:03:07
			you know, it's not anything that any
		
01:03:08 --> 01:03:11
			any Muslim person should be chanting.
		
01:03:11 --> 01:03:14
			That's a real deviation, and I think that
		
01:03:14 --> 01:03:16
			comes out of a kind of
		
01:03:16 --> 01:03:17
			activist politics
		
01:03:18 --> 01:03:20
			that is that is devoid
		
01:03:20 --> 01:03:23
			of this of spiritual training and our spiritual
		
01:03:23 --> 01:03:24
			tradition of self purification,
		
01:03:25 --> 01:03:28
			which has often been lost in the modern
		
01:03:28 --> 01:03:30
			world and is so important to be regained.
		
01:03:34 --> 01:03:35
			Thank you.
		
01:03:35 --> 01:03:36
			Thank you very much.
		
01:03:44 --> 01:03:44
			Every year,
		
01:03:45 --> 01:03:46
			when we have
		
01:03:46 --> 01:03:48
			the, Cole lectures,
		
01:03:49 --> 01:03:50
			we create a poster
		
01:03:51 --> 01:03:52
			for the lectureship
		
01:03:53 --> 01:03:53
			and
		
01:04:02 --> 01:04:03
			And we have it framed
		
01:04:04 --> 01:04:05
			for the speaker.
		
01:04:06 --> 01:04:08
			Now you do not have to carry this
		
01:04:08 --> 01:04:09
			back on the plane.
		
01:04:10 --> 01:04:12
			We will, in fact, ship it to you.
		
01:04:12 --> 01:04:12
			But
		
01:04:12 --> 01:04:13
			So beautiful.
		
01:04:14 --> 01:04:16
			I I admired it coming in. I didn't
		
01:04:16 --> 01:04:18
			know I was gonna get a coffee. No.
		
01:04:18 --> 01:04:20
			I just smiled to myself and said, oh,
		
01:04:20 --> 01:04:22
			wait till you sit get to the lecture.
		
01:04:23 --> 01:04:26
			Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you so
		
01:04:26 --> 01:04:27
			much, doctor Matson.
		
01:04:28 --> 01:04:29
			And,
		
01:04:29 --> 01:04:33
			I invite all of you to the reading
		
01:04:33 --> 01:04:34
			room which
		
01:04:34 --> 01:04:36
			is thataway for
		
01:04:37 --> 01:04:37
			refreshments.
		
01:04:38 --> 01:04:40
			We have light hors d'oeuvres
		
01:04:40 --> 01:04:40
			and
		
01:04:41 --> 01:04:41
			drink.
		
01:04:42 --> 01:04:45
			Tomorrow morning at 10 AM, we'll hear the
		
01:04:45 --> 01:04:47
			second of the Cole lectures for this year.
		
01:04:48 --> 01:04:50
			I invite you to return and bring some
		
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52
			folk with you.
		
01:04:53 --> 01:04:55
			Take good care, and we'll see you tomorrow.