Hamzah Wald Maqbul – The Struggle to Know Faith, Family & Foundations Episode 002
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Welcome back to the struggle to know, where
we will continue our conversation, here in the
city of Cleveland.
Actually, we're in East Cleveland, and, we're gonna
be talking to some
brothers,
who have a lot to contribute, I think,
to, this series of conversations. So,
my name is Tristan, and we'll kinda go
around and let everybody introduce themselves.
Yes.
Musa with you. Alhamdulillah. We're honored today to
be spending some time with the Abdul Samad
family.
We have our dear Sheikh Mohammed Abdul Samad
who became Muslim
in his late teens. Yes.
And then would find a sister who would
also
embrace Islam and they would get married and
start a family.
They have 7 children and 28 grandchildren if
I understand correctly. Yes. And we have 3
generations of Islam sitting with us at this
table. So, Abdul, Sheikh Mohammed's son, Kareem
and his grandson
Asen.
Shakur Dubay or Duval. Duval. Excuse me. Right.
So we should have some interesting perspective as
Tristan mentioned. This is the struggle to know.
We're here to try to understand,
race relations within the Muslim community.
Particularly here in Cleveland but even beyond Cleveland
because there's gonna be overlap, of course. So
to be able to get this type of
insight, I I pray and I hope will
be,
a source of benefit for all of us
here and all those who listen.
So sheikh Mohammed, maybe you can tell us
a little bit about yourself and your experiences.
Being here born and raised in Cleveland,
embracing Islam
and,
whatever you think might just help us understand
a little bit about your journey
and how that became mashallah whole
you know, generations of Islam inshallah till the
day of judgment.
I don't know if I can say it
all in the time that we have, but
I'll try to compress it into as much
time as we possibly can.
As,
Sheikh Musa said, my name is Mohammed Abdul
Samet.
I'm, Hamdulillah, I'm 68 years old.
I,
embraced Islam when I was
17 years old,
to 1969.
A little bit about myself and my family
and the climate of the American society when
I grew up.
But first, let me tell you a little
bit about my childhood.
I was born and raised a Christian
in the Catholic
tradition.
As a matter of fact,
I was very serious about about, Catholicism
as a child to my parents, to my
grandparents.
I served as an altar boy.
At one point, I can actually remember
wanting to be a priest
in the capital religion because I just admire
the
the humility
and
the impact
that the priesthood had on people and the
respect that priest had
on the, catholic,
congregation.
I can remember actually
holding the
the plate under people's
chins
as the priest would pull out a little
wafer and they would stick out their tongues.
And he would say,
the body of Christ.
And he would put this wafer in their
mouth,
and I would see them swallow it. And
I remember
every time he said that,
and I saw them swallowing it, I really
believe that that was the body of Christ.
And I can remember feeling
this nausea
I do.
That was coming from me every time they
said it. And they swallowed
it hungrily.
And I never thought too much about it,
but now when I think back, I know
where that came from.
Moving forward,
I went to capital school.
And at about the age of about 13,
I began to have stirrings
of the whole Catholic thing.
And it dawned upon me one time when
I was kneeling after
confession.
And I was praying to the statue of
the Virgin Mary,
peace be upon her.
And I was asking her to
speak to god
and forget ask god to forgive me for
my sins.
And I remember thinking even at a young
age then,
this is a statue.
It doesn't make sense.
I kept these feelings inside of me.
I never shared them with
anyone because I felt that I would get
in trouble.
We would have to go to catechism class.
Every Wednesday, it was mandatory after school.
And as I be as I begin to
have these
these sensations of doubt and fear
that would boil in the side of me,
I made it up in my mind that
I was gonna ask a question in that
catechism class.
And so
the nun
and any of you who have ever had
the experience of being raised in a Catholic
school,
they ruled with a stick.
And I remember how she walked around with
this long pointer with the rubber tip on
it. And she would be talking and walking
with the stick.
And she
ended the session, I can't remember what she
was talking about,
but I do remember this.
When she asked,
do you does anybody have any questions?
I stopped for a second then I raised
my hand.
And she's standing up there and
she says, what do you have? What what's
question do you have? And she's and I
lowered my eyes because I knew
what this would bring.
And she said,
speak up.
I couldn't even look at it. I looked
down at my desk and I said, sister
Patrick Marie,
god is all powerful. Right?
Yes.
There's nothing that is equal to him. Right?
Yes. What's your point? Get to your point.
Then why do we need 2 other gods?
13 years old.
I still remember
seeing her, you know, how they used to
wear the long habits with the long veil
coming.
It was kinda like blowing down the aisle
as she's coming towards me.
Right. I had a look.
I braced myself with a stick
because I knew I was gonna get whacked.
But instead of whacking it, she dropped the
stick and she grabbed me by my cheeks
and pulled my cheeks to her face
and pointed her finger at me.
Don't you ever
question the trinity.
It is a mystery
and you have to believe it.
Do you understand?
And I said, no. No.
At that point,
I became an apostate in Christianity.
As a matter of fact, I got to
the point where I was almost
atheist at that young age where I didn't
even wanna believe in god.
I used to play a game, a sick
game with my kids. But my not my
kids. My sisters and brothers.
And I would you know, our kids play
these games when their parents aren't around. And
I would say, I bet you in 10
seconds,
I'm not gonna die.
That's how low
I had gotten in my face.
And one time I said that,
it struck my heart. I did.
And I left the room and I went
upstairs to my bedroom
and I just felt this fear.
I didn't know what it was.
I never played that game again.
Yeah. Sheik Mohammed,
I wanna I wanna ask you this question
because I'm interested to know what type of
factor this played in your decision.
What was the kind of makeup of
the the background and the race of the
nuns of the school that you went to?
Were they predominantly white? They were all white.
The statue was white? The statue was white.
Yeah. Mary was white. Jesus was white. Joseph
was white.
All of the statues that they lined up
for the,
around the church for the stations of the
cross, all of them were white. Now at
that time, how did that factor into just
your your thinking
and or was that something maybe you look
back on later?
Yeah. It didn't factor. I just thought that
that's just the way things were at that
at that age. Right.
Okay. But something began to happen between the
time that I was 13
and between the time that I was 17
in America.
And that was a civil rights.
My parents became actively involved
in fighting against racism
and hatred
from
white America.
And they began to involve themselves with many
organizations for the
freedom, okay,
and the nondiscrimination
of African Americans.
And I remember
when Martin Luther King
came to Cleveland, we actually marched with him
to the stadium downtown.
And we sung the songs and
thousands and thousands of people marching for freedom
and justice.
And so that was my springboard and to
be involved in civil rights in America.
Now me being 14, 15 years old
So you were a Muslim yet? Now when
I was a Muslim,
I became involved in
a little bit more militant aspect of the
civil rights movement, shall I say?
Little bit more.
As a matter of fact, I enjoyed,
the company of many of my friends who
had joined the Black Panthers.
Had been involved in the,
back to Africa movement, in the the nationalism
of black black nationalism,
black pride.
And I began to immerse myself in that
culture.
And that was when I was about
15, 16 years old.
Grew a big Afro. You wouldn't believe it
now.
I love to see the boys.
Yeah. And my father, he, he had a
he had hair until he made Hodge. And
ever since he got back from Hodge, he
hasn't had any hair. My horse broke.
Lloyd.
My shoulder. And I began to surround myself
with people that were involved in in in
in black nationalism and in Black Panthers. I
joined it
and began involved in that, and my parents
started looking at me
very strange.
And at one point in time,
my father and I, we got involved in
some arguments and, I left home
because of that.
How old were you at that time? Was
16 years old
and began to get involved in the black
nationalist movement and all that and being involved
in some of the rebellions that were going
on in the in the in the in
the in the ghettos of America.
And
one day I was at a barbershop
getting my throat touched up.
That's all I'm thinking about.
And these brothers walked in.
They had this presence about them.
I don't know what it was, but I
was awestruck.
They
had a light.
And I remember to this day,
Dushahi,
brother Yaqya Abdul Sabur,
brother Abdul Rahim Abdullah.
And they walked in that barbershop, and I
looked at them,
and my head froze.
And I wanted to soak in every word
that they were saying. I didn't know what
they were talking
about. But I looked at them and I
said, I gotta find out who these people
are.
But they were older at my age. I
was I was afraid to even approach them
because they were like nobody ever seen anything.
I mean, people were involved in black nationalism,
but
I could tell these were not black nationalists.
Mhmm. And I used to see them occasionally
walking past because one of the brothers stayed
on my street,
and they would always walk through together.
I'm sure everybody knows these brothers.
And one day,
I came off my porch and I talked
to
Muhtar. He had a bald head. He had
just and I found out now that he
had just made Hajj.
And I went up to him and I
said,
salaam, brother. And that was kinda like a
ubiquitous term that every black person you used
to say. Salaam
brother.
Mhmm. And he said,
it's not just salaam, it's us
salaam.
Mashallah.
And I said,
He said, we're not black, Nazareth. We're Muslim.
Uh-huh.
And I thought he was talking about the
nation of Islam.
I said, oh, you mean that Elijah Muhammad?
He said, no. None of that crap. We
talking real Islam. Oh my god.
He
said, you need to rap with us one
day.
And they walked away.
Again, I'm standing there. My
my jaw just dropped open watching them walk
away.
Uh-huh.
From that point on,
you know, we know how the story ends.
Yeah.
What's up? I'm standing here today. This is,
like, 1970? It's with 19 70. Wow.
So
I became Muslim
in May of 1970.
Wow. Much trouble.
And
There's
because again, I think this is all very
fascinating and I wanna hear your perspective, your
son, your grandson.
What were your expectations when you went into
the Dean
coming from like a black nationalist
Mhmm. Perspective.
Yes. Kind of denouncing
what Catholicism and Christianity was about. Mhmm.
When you now find this particular lifestyle,
what were your expectations going into the Dean?
How did you experience it in those early
days? And how did that kind of like
maybe transform or meet up to those expectations
as you got older in the deen?
The expectations
when I became Muslim was resounding this.
That was it.
And when I learned what that meant,
my heart
just filled up
because I knew that that was something that
I was looking for. Mhmm. It's something that
I would what it was. 30. Right?
Right.
Tahit.
Mhmm.
And the Tahit was just something that I
just love to say over and over.
And it quenched the thirst of my soul.
To mockery of Allah,
to civil rights, to black nationalism,
to Islam
within a span of 3 years.
Imagine my parents
seeing me go through this.
They thought I had lost my mind.
Especially when I start coming home with a
prayer room and
reading some Quran with some Arabic, trying to,
you know, say Arabic prayers. But back then,
we didn't know we didn't know Arabic. We
had transliteration.
And so they thought it was better
to get me out of Cleveland.
Show. Or
Lucky.
So I had an aunt in Cincinnati.
Yeah. God bless her. She was an aunt
that always took everybody
that that from the family that kinda needed
to get away.
And they sent me
to Cincinnati. And I took my prayer rug,
and I got on the Greyhound bus,
and I went to Cincinnati.
And I moved to Cincinnati
and began to work at the calling post
newspaper by, well, that's a whole another story,
but,
got a job working at the call post
newspaper,
paper in Cincinnati.
And, we're delivering the newspaper, the African American
newspaper down there. My,
aunt's husband was the editor of the calling
post newspaper. He taught me a lot about
journalism
and all that.
But
the most important thing was the street that
I moved on.
Right next door
was a family that had
a very nice family that moved next to
that that we moved next to.
And there were,
5
girls
and one boy.
And,
I took a certain,
interest in one of the, the girls next
door. And,
50 years later, she's my wife.
Masha'Allah.
Love of my life.
And this is you're you're about 18 years
old at this time now? Yes. By that
time, I'm 18 going You're Muslim
and you're in Cincinnati? I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio.
And you you meet your future wife to
be? I meet my future wife to be.
Now when you were there in Cincinnati, you're
a Muslim.
Did you have any exposure to Muslims out
there? None. So Not at first. Okay.
I was kinda alone. I didn't, you know,
I didn't know that there was, there was
no mosque there at the time, but the
University of Cincinnati had a
a,
MSA.
And they had a place on campus where
the Muslims would go.
But they were mostly,
immigrant Muslims.
Okay.
And, you know,
I would visit there sometime and study and
and and read books.
But when I met my future wife, it
was interesting.
I don't wanna take up too much time.
Am I? No. No. No. Okay. Especially. Yeah.
Yeah.
It was interesting because
she she knew that I was Muslim. Everybody
who's this who's this big
this this guy with this big Afro coming
from Cleveland and, you know, everybody wanted to
know who I was and what I was
about.
And, I don't know how she found out
that I was Muslim.
But one day she came to me and
she said that you're Muslim. Right? And I
said yes. And she told me about this
paper that she's working on.
She says, well, I'm working on this paper.
This this, this paper for for high school
and, I said, what's it about? She said
it's,
the Nation of Islam
versus
Orthodox Islam.
And I'm like, what?
And she's standing there.
And I'm like, my mind is blown.
I come all the way down here, move
next door, and you come to me talking
about you guys working on a paper about,
you know, orthodox Islam versus the Nation of
Islam and you're writing a paper on it?
I'm like, what?
You know? I said, where you learned about
Islam? She said, well, I study all kind
of religion. But this is you know, I
thought this was something that I wanted to
write about. Something to that
For for any of our young men listeners,
if a young woman comes to you and,
says she's writing a paper about Islam, it's
time for you to stand up straight and
choose your next words very carefully.
If you do like shikhab to Samad,
this might be a happy ending inshallah. Yes.
So
she showed me the paper
and it was a comparison
and it was excellent.
Masha'allah.
The research that she had done on it,
the pros and the versus the cons, was
excellent.
I was hard task to find anything to
criticize the paper about.
And she was not even Muslim.
So that kind of fixed in my head
which one of the 5 what since young
ladies next door I was gonna try to
talk
to. As one of them unintended mercies Yes.
Where you kinda get kicked out of the
house Yes. And forced to leave your hometown
Yes. And you meet your wife. Yes. That's
kinda like say the Musa alayhis salaam. Alright.
No doubt. So
so Shaina Abu Samad, if I could if
I could maybe telescope the conversation a little
bit Yes, please. From our elders,
what we hear is that
the Islam, like, through the seventies eighties, maybe
even into the mid nineties,
Cleveland was a very important part of the
life of Islam in America. Absolutely. And
and Cleveland, the the that life was carried
predominantly by our African American brothers and sisters.
Correct.
So is there something maybe about that era
that you wanted to describe? Like, if there
are people, kids who just grew up, you
know, like, whatever, playing playing, video games and
Yeah. Instagram, Snapchat Mhmm. And they don't know
about that time, but you want them to
know, like, what was that like? That that
existed and what it what it was like
and what were the good things about that
time? Like, what would you wanna share with
them?
Yes.
19
71 is a time that you're talking about
in my life
when Cleveland was one of the major cities
of Islam
in America,
especially for
Sunni Muslims and those who are
reverting back to Islam,
which is the reason why I left Cincinnati
because I wanted to come back to Cleveland
to be part of this movement
of Islam in Cleveland. Wow.
So today was nice, beautiful city.
There was no Muslim community there for me.
I left Cleveland. I left an Islamic community
in Cleveland,
okay, sort of against my will.
Okay. But I migrated
back
for the express purposes of raising my family.
Okay. By that time, I had gotten married
and decided that it was time to move
back to Cleveland because I wanted to raise
we wanted to raise
our children
in Islamic
with an Islamic community.
If I may, ask, what was the African
American community like in Cincinnati at that time?
Nonexistent
to my knowledge.
Yeah. It was mostly it was predominantly a
Nation of Islam.
And Sheikh, when you say there was already
a Muslim established Muslim community in Cleveland. Yes.
What did that Muslim community look like?
We're African Americans, right?
199.9
percent African Americans.
Okay. Cleveland mosque for the first First Cleveland
mosque
and then there was Masjid, Mukman.
Okay. Where the predominant
Muslim
true Muslim communities in Cleveland.
Uh-huh. And as we know, the first Cleveland
mosque is the 2nd oldest mosque in the
United States. Right. Been here since
1936.
And when I spoke to him at my
bass, he says, arguably, it could be the
first. It just depends on, like, when you
officially count it in the paper. But, yeah,
36, 37. Right? Yeah. It's about a year
apart. The the oldest one is in Iowa,
Iowa, I believe.
Wow. And then you had I know. I
would love to know the story behind that.
You know that? Yes.
But, yeah. The
first Cleveland mods were older brothers.
When I say older, when I was young,
older meant 40 years old. 30s and 40.
Now that I'm 68, it ain't older no
more.
But there were older brothers. The brothers were
40, 50 years old.
Masjid
Bookman was a Masjid that was changing from
an elder
African American,
leadership
Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha
Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha
Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha Muha
Muha Muha Muha Muhaaab Abdul Shahid. And he
was young, vibrant,
and he was a Vanguard in the Islamic
community and still is for many years. One
of my one of the first mentors of
my life in Islam. He gave me my.
I wanna come back to that inshallah. Mhmm.
Especially of how the community kind of,
developed and involved with the passing of the
time. Mhmm. But,
I also wanna get some perspective from your
son, Kareem, your grandson. Yes. One one other
point. So when we came back to Cleveland,
we were the only people that were recognizably
true Muslims.
Okay.
Not only by our boys, but we adapted
the dress of the sooner.
Our sisters wore hijab.
Okay?
Okay. Unapologetically,
they wore it.
And they were out front with us establishing
and people would
what is this? You all are real Muslim.
You're you're supposed to be with the nation
of Islam. No. We had to give Dawah
and teach people what real Islam was.
We were the 1st mosque to really establish
by the last day in the city of
Cleveland.
Okay?
And from that mosque, many, many, many, many
young,
brothers and sisters went on and excelled in
Islamic studies and Islamic academics.
Sheikh Islam Bagby was part of that community.
And we grew up together,
and,
we became Muslim around the same time.
It's a very bible community.
Michelle, you you bring up a good point.
I mean,
I think a lot of times
as a kind of a modernist philosophical tendency,
we tend to reduce Islam to just the
the
the, like, legal aspects. Mhmm. And so in
that sense, yes, it's true. A person,
lives in America.
It's completely lawful for them to wear pants
and a shirt as long as their nakedness
is covered and this, that, and the other
thing. You know? But Islam is so much
more than just the law. In our last
podcast,
we talked about one of the problems that
hurts me the most is the aspirations of
certain segments of our Muslim community,
which is what is that they see in
the oppressor
themselves.
They look instead of looking at the Banu
Israel and Musa, alayhis salam, they look at
Firaun and say,
we can we see ourselves in them. We
wanna be part of that. We wanna be
like them. Mhmm. And that's one of the
things I I appreciated, especially from our African
American elders in this in this in this
country,
from that
era, that, they were the ones growing up
spoon fed,
blonde hair, blue eyed, fake
fake, man god. Mhmm. And they just they're
like, no. We don't we don't want our
slave name. We don't want our we don't
wanna dress like,
you know, the dress that that that that
we were given. We don't wanna worship them
as god. We're done with this, you know.
And I think this is really beautiful what
you were saying that unfortunately, there are many
people in our Muslim community of all colors
and all backgrounds.
And the the the the outward form of
the people may be different, but the sickness
is the same inside the heart that they
see they see the archetype of,
of the oppressor.
And they say, if I just hustle a
little bit, if I get enough grades, if
I can get enough money, if I can
move into the right neighborhood, I can be
one of them. Mhmm. And like
the teachings of Nobua I mean, I'm not
saying those people are not Muslims or even
questioning their sincerity. Oftentimes these are very deep
seated,
psychological conditions that people have. But if you
look at the pure teachings of Nabuah, *
no. We don't wanna be part of them.
We wanna have we wanna have a 1000
miles between us and them in this world
and, like, 10 times that much on the
day of judgment. We're not we're we're not
part of them. If somebody wants to, you
know, take this path with us,
then then then welcome because this one is
leading to a good place and that one
isn't. So I thought that was, you know,
something really beautiful you mentioned. Maybe inshallah, like,
later on when we hear from your, son
for your grandson inshallah Mhmm. We can talk
about why why does it seem like in
all of the all of the Muslim communities,
including, well, as a as a observer, even
in African American community, the spirit seems to
have kind of weakened or dimmed or dulled
down. Like, why is that? Good. Good point.
Good point.
Yes.
So again, as I was saying right that,
like when I see the
yourself.
You might not know this but
I
I. Masha'Allah
Tabata'kalah. I admire you a lot. And a
lot of the elders in my community
who came into the Deen because I'm looking
ahead
50 years from now 40 years from now.
I'm
not 20 years from now.
Right?
Of what my kids will be like and
what my grandkids will be like.
So we have a very different mentality because
we came into the dean.
So we have different expectations. Mhmm. So I
became Muslim when I was 19.
I had very similar experiences from what you're
speaking about. Not exactly the same, but there
are some parallels. Mhmm. And then now I
have my kids who are being born and
raised in Islam. Mhmm. And I'm hoping and
praying, like, they see the beauty of it
in the same way that we were able
to see the beauty of it and embrace
it. Mhmm.
So we could deal with things maybe that
aren't a part of Islam even from the
Muslim community and it's not gonna bother us
because that's not where we came in.
But people who maybe are born and raised
as a Muslim
and are being told, like, what Islam is
supposed to be like,
if they're not seeing it
and if there's some inconsistency with what they're
being told,
and what they're witnessing in the community,
that might be a problem. Because they didn't
necessarily choose it. Mhmm.
But they're being taught what it's supposed to
be. Mhmm.
So then that kind of leads me to
be quite interested in like
Austin's
perspective. Absolutely. Kareem's perspective. Mhmm. Being now born
and raised as a Muslim
where maybe it started off predominantly
where it's a majority African American community.
But now you got the immigrant community coming
in and then there's a lot more interaction
between different, you know, and then you thinking
I'm we're Muslim
and it doesn't matter where you're from. Mhmm.
But was that reciprocated?
I mean, I'm
interested to know.
That's a tough one. Not this whole conversation,
obviously, is very tough. But,
growing up in
Masjid Al Muqman, it was
special.
The the brothers that I grew up with,
to this day, even if I don't see
them,
I could see them and I could call
them for anything. And I haven't seen them
in years. I could do it. I could
do it, and they could do the same
with me. And that's the Muslim brotherhood
that that that we were taught by these
elders that we're speaking of.
But we were also
in Cleveland, and Cleveland
is separated
by a river. This river is
the east side and the west side. And
on the east side, you've got,
a lower, quote, unquote, socioeconomic
state than on the west side lower socioeconomic
state, the whites and the blacks for the
most part. We're not talking suburbs. We're talking
Cleveland proper. Right?
So
in our
in our own bubble,
as an African American Masjid,
to grow up that way
was special. And then as we grow, and
you mentioned growing up as a Muslim and
being taught it as opposed to choosing it.
Right? As you grow, you begin to,
as any
team does, question,
am I being taught what I ultimately want
to think and all those sorts of things.
And it's
easier
to,
to leave it when you're, when you're, when
you don't choose it. Right?
But when you're around so many people
that,
were taught the same way and
what what we know is the right way.
We were taught Sunni Islam. We weren't taught
any other offshoot of this and that or
5% this, and we were taught true Islam
the best way that we that they were
they knew how to teach it to us.
And then from there, we
we were able to say, look, there is
no other way. When whenever whenever you don't
choose Islam
and you go out and research and you
do own research, if you come back to
it and say there's another way, you're lying
to yourself
because there is there's an answer for every
question
in Islam. There is. There's an answer to
the problems of racism in this country. There's
a there's an answer to the problems of
racism in the Muslim community. It's all in
Islam.
So growing up,
I'm all I'm very analytical. I get that
from my mother, where I have to
for me, it's gotta make sense for me
and it takes a it takes me a
while and you mentioned the pros and cons
for the paper. I'm the same kind of
way. I need to have it here and
here and look at it, and then there's
opinion there. I remember doing that when I
was 14, 15, 16 years old about Islam.
And did I want to did I want
to be a Muslim?
You know, and then I thought about it
and do my own things and realized that
my mother and father and the community in
which they raised us in,
that was my blessing.
Right? It was my blessing
to be raised in such a vibrant
African American Muslim community.
Right?
And all I try to do now is
give my children the same blessing
through the grace and mercy of Allah.
So
it's it's,
I and it's funny because you hear I've
heard some of these stories from my father,
But
I remember back when I was 15, 16,
17, I asked him,
why did you become Muslim? What was it
about it? This was me in my own
questioning period in your life
when you go through. What made you become
Muslim? Why did you do it? What were
you thinking?
And I've heard these stories, and I haven't
heard them in years. And you hear it
again, and it brings it back to me,
like,
that's why.
Right? For me, I never grew up understand
being faced with choosing the trinity. My questions
about Islam weren't about that. They were
my my questions about Islam weren't about that.
They were about
why are we somewhere where there aren't as
many Muslims? If it's this real, why if
this is it, why isn't everybody a Muslim?
Right? And then you begin to realize
you start talking about the problems of America
and how it was built on this and
this and it becomes a question of how
can we make America better with Islam.
So that's interesting.
So so then when you were being raised,
alhamdulillah, you had a vibrant African American community.
Now as you got older, the community started
getting a little more colorful. Right. Right? A
little more diverse. The immigrant community started coming
in. Other masajid were being built.
What was your interaction with
Muslims that weren't African American?
It is interesting. It existed.
I remember
doing some thinking about this a while back,
and
this is gonna sound harsh,
but a lot of immigrant Muslims
in the because I'm 46, so we're talking
eighties nineties. Right? So
a lot of these Muslims
come to America,
coattailing on the,
on the struggles that the African Americans
laid out. But when they come over,
they may identify as white.
So then they come
to America
and assimilate with the white community
as
I hate to say this, but as a
closet Muslim. Right? So they walked down the
street
looking,
sounding,
acting
like a white man.
So they reap the benefits of the socio
socioeconomic
status of a white man or a white
woman.
So
they've essentially, for for a time,
I won't say forgotten, but
ignored those who
laid
the path for them to come and choose
Islam
to the place where they can worship their
Islam the right way. Because a lot of
immigrants come from places where you can't worship
Islam the right
way. Right? You know what I mean? So
they come here, America, for all of its
problems and we know what they are. You
can come here and worship Islam,
and you won't have to deal with
a tyrannical this, tyrannical that. You can come
here and you can worship your Islam.
But when a lot of immigrants now come
here came here,
the road that was laid by the pioneers
in the 50, 60, seventies, or thirties
was ignored.
The masjids that were started
were not supported.
New masjids popped up where the immigrants
would separate themselves from the African American community.
So
I I don't know that there was
there was genuine
I wouldn't say animosity, but there was tension
between the African American community
and the the immigrant communities. Right?
And I remember when I was
mid teens, late teens, early twenties, we started
having community
aid prayers at parks and things like that.
And it was
wonderful. It was wonderful. And you begin to
see you get to meet,
different people of different faiths. And I remember
I studied not different faith, but different, different
ethnicities.
And I remember I studied,
Malcolm x, El Hajj Malik El Shabazz. I
read that book cover to cover, like, 5
times. And I remember
when he made Hajj
and he
encountered
white Muslims or Muslims of a different color
than he and they were his brothers. We
didn't feel that
here. It was different here because America
was built on this idea that if you
are a person of
color,
you had to you you were you were
expected to accept your station as somewhat inferior.
Now I was raised never to do that
never to do that, but
it was almost expected that you had to
if you weren't gonna do that, you had
to fight a little more.
So it was very interesting. And I think
only until,
I'd say, the late eighties,
early nineties, maybe.
It became
maybe my late eighties, early nineties, it became
more where you could,
it felt more comfortable
around
a Muslim immigrant community. I I you know,
I wanna, like,
this is good, and I want to interject
also because I know we have a diverse
audience of listeners. Right?
It's beautiful how we heard from Baha'i Abdul
Samad about his,
accepting of Islam and the road to it.
And in it, there's echo of even the
story of the Sahaba radiallahu on whom, the
pure and undiluted
intellect of a young
of a of a child, you know,
who sees the irrationality of and leaves it
with sincerity and how the help of Allah
came down. And this is every nation of
the earth that entered into Islam, including Quresh
itself. Said Ali accepted Islam as a child
and stood in front of the elders of
Banu Hashim and said
when none of them would. It's reminiscent of
all of all of that.
Now that,
you have mentioned this part of your story,
there are going to be people who are
starting to feel uncomfortable.
And the point of this podcast and this
conversation
is what?
Remember, we're all coming from the same place
and we're coming to the same table. And
the point of raising raising this is not
in order to start to, put, you know,
lighter fluid on a situation
and light it on fire so that me
and Sheikh Musa can build our, you know,
Tristan can build his, like, podcaster empire.
There are people like that, by the way,
unfortunately, in our He's not lying to you.
And that's not your No. That's what that's
what that's why we're talking to you, you
know. You know, we're not we're not like,
you know, some guy with bow tie and
I don't wanna put out the fire, I
wanna watch it burn. The whole point of
Islam is that nothing should burn inshallah. There's
the of the prophet
that that nothing should burn. Even his enemies
shouldn't burn, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. But people
are gonna start feeling uncomfortable now because, well,
we came from suffering too. We can
suffering like we always we like to remind
everybody. It's not Olympics, the the the gold
medal winner, and if you're not on the
podium, you go home a loser or
whatever. These are brothers, Masha. They sympathize with
the plight of our brothers and sisters who
came from other countries where they're oppressed.
Can we also then see our Islam and
theirs
as immigrants
and sympathize with their plight as well. Like
like, you know, a a classroom, like, kindergarten
classroom, like, you know, 30 kids. 29 of
them had breakfast. One of them didn't. He's
hungry. Everybody thinks that, like, everyone's full, but
they don't know the hunger of that brother.
Listen to them about you know, listen to
them and see what what is it that
they're feeling so that we can rectify it.
Because the problems we face as an umma
are big. We're not gonna be able to
face them down if we're we're we're we're
we're broken and divided.
And if we do lip service unity, it
means nothing if we're not
united united in the hearts. And for that,
we have to sit and uncomfortably listen and
hear these stories.
May I just add one one point?
When the immigration of Muslims from
Arabia, the Middle East,
Asia
happened
back in the middle sixties,
seventies,
Most of the immigrants that came
here came from colonized
countries. They were they were colonized
by Europeans.
And
the the fact is is that
those who were colonized
were given certain impressions about
us as African Americans.
Mhmm. That's fine.
So
you have colonized
immigrants coming to
America
who have been given a certain picture
by the colonizers
about us before they even get here. Right.
So So when they get off the boat,
when they get off the plane,
and they see us here, who has been
here for 400 years,
struggling,
struggling under the boot
of a white America.
And then they run to white America
and turn their backs on us.
And
we're both Muslim. Muslim. That's right.
This is what we taste.
Mhmm.
We keep it under control,
but it's there. Alright.
And we saw it. Right. We experienced it,
and it's a silent
disease
that was brought here by the colonized Muslims
that immigrated here to America.
And it's not like
they weren't approached
because we're all Muslims.
That's
That's not how you
say
Can you read Quran?
Do you have a job?
I literally had people asking me if I
had a job. Oh.
The impression
that many of them have were that we
were lazy,
that we were gangsters,
that we were thugs,
and fornicators.
And this this is this is just gets
back to And that's how they looked it
up. Picture of America and and the
the the racialization
of America
for
450 years or more, where you take
how you can take people and dehumanize them
and make them chattel
and make them
slaves. The only way to do that
is to dehumanize them. And for 450 years,
that is still there.
It's still there in some people's minds whether
they want to believe it or act upon
it or not. Right? So
like he says, when you
when
I think about other places with that the
Europeans have gone and con colonized,
they've influenced those those
those places.
But when they with with Africa, they didn't
influence them. They just took people. They took
them and brought them here.
And a lot of those people were Muslim.
They were Muslim.
Mhmm. And
so,
we were here as Muslims
before anyone. Right at the start. Right. Mhmm.
Africans were here as Muslims
before anyone.
And there are stories, and I I just
started getting into this recently, stories of of
Muslims
that were slaves
practicing
in secret.
And over the past 3, 4 years, we
started reading about this stuff, and it's it's
amazing. Well, everybody's seen this, but many people
thought of story roots. Yep. Roots. Mhmm. You
know? And they were Muslim, you know? And
so, you
know, the the thing is is that, you
know, Islam is not new to us. No.
Okay. It it was taken from us. Right.
By by the way, you mentioned roots. When
I was studying in Mauritania, there was, one
of our classmates,
Sheikh Kimo, allat Allah, have mercy on him.
He passed away. One of the most beautiful
people I knew. You never met him. He
was we met him in Mauritania. You know?
Maybe if we have a chance, we can
talk about him. Allah, have mercy on him.
Whoever hears this. Read the for
him. Beautiful brother. He was Mandinka
ethnically and he was from he was from
the village of Kunta Kinte.
And he said so many Americans used to
come and visit the village,
and he said as a child, the only
explanation I think of in my head was
that Kunta Kinte must have been a great
alim. He must have been a great sheikh
who had knowledge of the deen. This is
the only reason, like, anyone why would otherwise,
why would people come from so far to
visit his village, you know? But, like, you
know, some of these things are very full
circle, masha'Allah. Mhmm.
So it's very,
it's very
comforting to see,
now
where Islam is and where it's going to
go, inshallah, in America. Because
growing up, it was different. It was interesting
to see,
the separation of the messages or and then
you start getting into the questions of who
has the right aid here and there. And
all the the the community aids that we
used to have kinda fell away. But for
a time, we would have them
everybody in the city would come to one
place. And that's when you began to see
you began to see
I began to have friends
that were from different places around the world
and some of my lifelong friends still to
this day that I that I got to
meet,
and it's from those community aids that we
used to have. And, of course, they've they've
begun to
to fall away. Sheikh Musa,
Sheikh Musa, for
whatever reason,
in his Hikma, he gave the riyasa of
this ilm to us.
Inshallah. We commit, Inshallah,
that from our sides and we invite every
other, not invite, rather, we join the other
imams that are committed to it also. That
inshallah, if we can do that, if we
can all get together and have a great
gathering for Eid, maybe corona may not allow
it for this Eid ul Adhaab, but in
the future,
according to the the sunnah of the prophet
and the teaching of the book of Allah
ta'ala, If we can do that again, we
can unite all the different people,
you know, under one, cover.
You know,
we're we're we we we we cast we
cast our
our our our our our our turbine into
that,
into that vision. That that that was a
beautiful time in in in Islam in Cleveland
because prior to that,
coming together collectively for Eid,
there was this chasm between the immigrant Muslims
and the African American community that was very,
very bitter. And,
when we would visit the,
the immigrant masjids,
you know,
we weren't we weren't made to feel welcome.
Okay? We would,
you know, people wouldn't even approach us,
you know.
After giving salons, they would kinda break off
into their own little huddles and
speak their own languages. And we were, like,
standing there and we got all 3 different
languages,
you know, and people are ignoring us and
we're supposed to sit there in these conversations,
you know, which to me is an insult.
Okay? When everybody speaks one common language
and you sit around the table
with Muslims
to break bread,
to share tea.
And then
the only one that can understand it
is the African American Muslim Which by the
way is haram. The prophet
forbid that if there's a group of people
and one of them doesn't doesn't, you have
a a conversation that is secret that you
exclude one of them from that conversation. He
forbid people from doing that. And the comment
that what the way that's described in the
hadith is if you like, huddle off to
the side. Mhmm. But but included in the
ruling of that is speaking a language that
that person doesn't speak.
Mhmm. I don't know. And so many times
when this would happen, you, I can just
recall and many African American say that they
just get up and leave. Right. I'm not
sitting here. I'm not I'm not gonna be
insulted like this. I'm out of here.
There is a a and there's
any black person in this country
knows what it feels like to be made
to feel unwelcome. You can walk into a
room, you see the look, and you know
it. Yeah. It's just what it is. You
can walk into a room, you see it,
you know. And it's not just black people,
it's people of any ethnicity that's not white.
Okay. You walk into a room, you see
it and it's like, okay, it's one of
those kind of vibes. Right. Mhmm. And then
you just know what you gotta deal with,
you embrace it, you deal with it, and
you move on. But to be made to
feel that way in an Islamic community,
it's like we're gonna go back to our
masjid. We're gonna do it. We're gonna grow
our community,
right, the best way we can. And when
they're ready to do as we want to
do, then we'll try again.
So on that note,
this
reminds me of a conversation that we had
once before Yes. At a at a
mutual friend's, home Mhmm. In which, you shared
some information with me that I had not
ever heard before, which was
the story of how the Islamic Center of
Cleveland Yes. The conversation of where it was
intended to be and how it came to
be.
I I was really hoping that you'd be
willing to share,
from your perspective and
your, your background. Share with us, like, a
little bit of that information and shout Okay.
Well, my knowledge,
of that,
the Islamic Center
history
is kind of like,
it's it's
it's known and it's unknown.
Most people today don't know really the origins
of how the Islamic Center started.
But prior to it being in the location
where it is,
it was where Masjid
Masjid Masjidullah is.
Yes. Okay?
And,
obviously, it outgrew itself. So there was a
discussion
at that point
that
they wanted to expand.
And there was a discussion where, you know,
maybe we should bring it closer to a
central area where Muslims from the east side
and west side of the river
can,
you know,
collectively
come together.
Was there a group of people who were
discussing this group of people to my understanding
that were, of that camp where we need
to bring it closer.
Okay? And my understanding is that there were
they began butting heads.
Well, no. We don't wanna move it too
close to, you know, to the east side
because,
you know. Yeah. Obviously, the feeling was is
that the African Americans would overpopulate
or integrate into the the new masjid and,
you know, obviously, we weren't welcome.
Okay? And then there was the other group
that said, well, you know, we should we
should try to bring the Muslim together.
Long story short, it ended up in Parma.
Now
anybody that knows the history of Parma
in Cleveland
knows that Parma has been the hotbed of
racism for the African American community for over
a 100 years.
And when that mosque was built
in Parma,
that sent a message
to the African American community
because they knew,
without a doubt
that Palmer was racist.
As a as a matter of fact, Palmer
could not even receive federal money because of
their racist policies. Right.
Again again, like, people will feel, like, threatened
or or, like, hurt or whatever. Mhmm. This
is
I've just summed up this, you know, he's
a person who wills good to Islam and
to the Muslims. That much is not clear
by, like, the podcast at this point, you
know.
I don't know what will clear your head
to it. So when he says it, we
should take heed of it. I myself am
the Imam and the Masjid and Parma. Mhmm.
I myself, I walk to the masjid often
times. I don't feel safe. Mhmm. You know,
people will let their dogs out and things
like that. Like, I don't, you know, I
feel it. I feel that vibe, you know.
And
I'm not I'm I I don't, you know,
I don't present like I'm white but I
don't and I don't present like I'm black
either. But even I myself feel what you're
what you're saying. And there's been a lot
of, you know, change since that from that
time to now. And I'm not saying we
have to burn the mustard down and I'm
not saying that like everyone So like that.
And there are many people in the mustard,
if you ask them they'll be like, yeah,
the parking is really good over here and
like it's better than the parking of Rasool
Allah, which is probably true. But Mhmm. And
that's fine. We're not saying you're a racist
person because you
like that masjid.
Just try to understand what other people feel
that they don't feel the same thing that
you feel. Try to understand like, you know,
where they're coming from. Sympathize with it. Mhmm.
In order for us to like heal
the rifts whether we wanna acknowledge they exist
or not, they exist. Mhmm. And we're not
gonna be able to move forward until we
heal them.
If white people say that Parma is racist,
what do you think black people feel? Right.
So we had to
we had we had to swallow that
That unspoken
message Right.
From a Muslim community
when they built that mosque in parliament.
And we was like, woah.
Yeah. Okay.
Cool.
Cool. And you know We understand. What what's
interesting about this And so we peeled back,
man.
Because we knew what that meant.
We felt it. What's interesting about this is,
as as a person who,
so my my position is a little bit
different.
I I made my
when I was older than both of you
brothers.
You know, kind of coming to that point
where I was asking myself questions about Islam,
I was already,
25.
And,
my family
my father
moved our family over the west side because
he worked at Ford. Mhmm. And so I
grew up on the west side, one of
those pocket communities of African Americans on the
west side. There are several on the west
side. On the west side. Community. And so,
when I got older and I started to
kind of question,
myself regarding
faith and start to look into different things,
the only mosque that I had any recollection
of was
the Islamic Center in Cleveland because we driven
past it many times. My mother used to
work at Sears that was
in, Middleburg Heights, like, right there on,
130th. So we drove past it a lot
of times. And so when it came to
a point where I needed to know something
about Islam,
all I could think was, oh, yeah, there's
that big building with a gold dome. Mhmm.
That's a mosque, I think. You know? Mhmm.
And so
when I went to that,
masjid,
immediately,
black people on the west side know the
same thing. Parma is not a area you
wanna hang out in. It's not a place
that you go. It's not a place you
it's just you're not welcome there.
Driving while black. Right. And so when I
went there,
I was on guard. You know, I was
just, like, I'm in unfamiliar territory or unwelcoming
territory. Mhmm. But I have questions that I
need answered. And so when I went there,
and I started going there regularly,
non surprisingly,
no black people at all.
I was the only black person, I think,
that went to that mosque for a really
long time,
until I would see other people, and it
was usually people that were, like, passing by.
You know, they were truck drivers that said,
hey. I just needed to go to a
mosque
so I could pray or something. You know?
And so it it was very rare for
me to see another black person.
And then when I started to explore the
city of Cleveland and really start to
wanna learn more about Islam,
I went to the east side, and I
started going to the other Masajid. And then
what what what wound up happening at that
point is a lot of people kinda questioned
me, like, why do you go to that
masjid? Why do you go to that mosque?
You know, it was almost like,
you know, my black heart was in question.
Right?
And, you know, I just I just straight
up told us, like, I grew up on
the west side. But I wasn't posing a
conversation with you. Yeah. Yeah. Many people have
had and a lot of people some people
don't even have the conversation. They just look
at me a certain type of way, like,
yeah, you'd be over there. You know what
I'm saying? So,
you know, there are some people who are
a little bit more understanding and, you know,
they they do wanna know more, but there's
a certain attitude
that, I have received even from my brothers
and sisters in African American community because they
it's just a question mark. Like, why?
Because
it was across the board understood, like, we
aren't welcome there. Mhmm. And so over the
years,
when I started to become more familiar with
the Muslim community on the east side and
started to develop relationships with,
you know, the elders in our community and,
subhanAllah, you know,
making my shahada was, like, a big moment
in my life. Right?
But getting in touch with the African American
community years after that,
it was like another mind blowing experience because
when I remember clearly when I first went
to First Cleveland Masjid, it was like
a I say it all the time to
brothers, that I talked to. I felt like
I had just came home.
Even though I was a stranger in that
community, I felt more at home
there
the very first time I went than I
did
at ICC for years.
And so that listening to your story is
very interesting for me because, you know, you
have
3 generations of Muslims as sheikh Musa,
has
opened up and talked about. And so, personally,
I'm very curious to continue to hear more
from all of you. I'm especially curious to
hear,
some of your feelings, in regards to the
Muslim community and, how you
have interacted with
the younger generation. Because talking about ICC, I
think the younger generation at that masjid,
as well as the other masjid, they don't
they they this may not be a realistic
thing for them. They don't know this history.
And so, yeah, I just like to hear
you. Yeah. Awesome. We we're not gonna let
you off the hook, man. You weren't gonna
get away. I was trying to steer towards
you towards you, you know. This this is
awesome. This is the grandson of Sheikh Mohammed
and the nephew of Kareem.
He's the son
of his your daughter and his sister, Madinah.
So may Allah bless you. He just he'll
be going off to school at the University
of Miami, Ohio.
Inshallah, this coming fall. Sisters who are watching
the YouTube video, make sure you lower your
gaze, Inshallah.
He still got a he still got a
he still got a deal of studies, Inshallah.
So
So
I've been going to, Masjid Momin,
my whole life,
because
that's where, my father was grew up in
that community.
He, raised around those brothers and they helped
him convert to Islam. So that's sort of
the community that I've grown up in and
had, Imam Muthaf
as my imam. And he's he's almost like
another grandfather to me. Just,
the amount of stories he's had. And I
remember a lot of times, like, every time
after Juma,
me and a bunch of the other younger
brothers would just go up to his office
and sit and just listen to the stories
he would tell us with a lot of
the other older brothers
and just listen. And so a lot of
these stories that Abi is saying, you know,
I've heard some of them. Some of them
I haven't heard, but I've been able to
piece sort of things together. But,
growing up in that community, you know, it's
like, pretty much, like, 99% African American Muslims,
which is sort of comforting for me to
just see
all these other African American Muslims that sort
of helped me growing up,
a Muslim.
And, some of the closest that I've felt
to Islam was during
my times at Itikaf when I went up
to the mosque for Itikaf.
I went, 3 years ago and then 2
years ago. Obviously, this year, we couldn't, but
ever since 3 years ago, I've been going
up for Ittaqaf and just
sitting around all those brothers who have been
so impactful for Islam in Cleveland
and just hearing their stories, it was just
like,
awe like, I was in awe of hearing
all these stories of how how important they
really were for this community.
But one thing I remember we were talking
about how they used to have, community aids
or how the community that used to be
so vibrant and together and my father would
always tell me stories about how,
the people of his generation, they would take
them up to New York, to Philadelphia, to
different Muslim communities
around America
just learning with these other communities, getting to
know other brothers, you know, connecting
the Muslims of America and obviously now now
we don't have that anymore
and,
it's kind of sad that we don't have
that but,
because of this rift that Bea and Uncle
Kareem were talking about, Obviously, I wasn't a
part of that, but hearing those stories
and understanding why that rift was created.
But I think now we're in a time
more than ever where it's important
that we unite.
And I think our mosque, we're sort of,
Masjid movement. We're sort of in the, like,
passing of the torch phase from the older
generation to my father's generation in the the
in the forties fifties, you know, sort of
passing the leadership. And I think
now would be the perfect time to, you
know,
address the rifts and address these uncomfortable conversations
and move forward from there, you know. I
think it's important to still address what happened
and, you know, there's a sort of disrespect
that was shown to the African American community,
but I think if we if we can
you know, as long as those can be
addressed and they're not ignored and we can
build from there, I think I think that
would be important because I've always wanted to
have a big community aid,
with the because I I I I know,
some people from different communities and different masjids,
but, you know, we always have our separate
our separate Eids, our separate Eid feast,
and, I've always wondered why we can't have
just one large one
where everyone is there and, you know, you
just see you drive past the park and
you just see 100 and 100 of Muslims
just around
a tent or or or whatever that may
be.
I've always thought that that might be nice,
but
it's Awesome. What has been the extent of
your engagement and interaction
with because you're in a community which is
predominantly African American Muslims.
Right. So what was the extent of your
engagement with Muslims who are not African American?
Whether they're Arabi, Palestinian, Syrian, Indian, Pakistani?
It hasn't been much except for
for 1st grade, I went to Al Asan.
So that was, like during that time, it
was, like,
mostly Arab,
mostly Arab teachers and just like a few
African Americans.
And I remember and I don't remember exactly
all that, of my time there, but I
do remember Summit.
I didn't really feel welcome at that school,
like, they would, like I was in the
1st grade, but they would, like, throw me
to the 2nd grade and say, oh, go
to this classroom
or oh, go to this classroom for this
class. And it was just like, well, why
am I bouncing around? Why why am I
not staying with my classmates?
I think at that time, I was the
only African American in my homeroom
and they would just put me in the,
classroom with,
2 other African Americans who might have been
I think they were some of the only
ones there. And I was always sent to
the principal's office for, like, the smallest things.
It just made it does didn't really feel
welcome. And so that was in 1st grade.
That was, my first interaction with non African
American Muslims,
but ever since then,
I haven't really had much interaction, you know,
because I go to a mainly African American
mosque so
I don't I don't know any other
non African American Muslims that are my age.
I know some, but I don't really have
a connection with them.
And,
I think like some of the stories that
a bee and uncle Kareem are telling is
that's just
it's
the result of some of these stories that
they're telling of how these rifts are created
or how how we were made unwelcome, and
that's why I don't have any
non African American Muslim friends is because of
some of these stories that they're telling and,
you know, that's
that's I I will say this too.
I supervise open gym at ICC
twice a week.
And that's where I know Asim from.
And when I first started going there, this
is now about 8 years. Been in community
9 years.
Shortly after that started doing that. It was
predominantly Arrivee that were coming to play.
And since then it's been a lot more
diverse.
I'm not saying that's because of me. This
is what I've observed.
And I do try to make sure that
everyone is
treated the same and everyone has their same,
access to the court. So we have the
the African Americans from the east side who
are coming.
We got the
Somalis from Mashika Sulla who come regularly.
And it's it's pretty diverse, Masha'Allah. There's been
3 times I've had to
break up a fight because brothers put hands
on each other
in those years. And all three times it
was Arabic and African American.
And I see it firsthand the tension that
exists
and,
a part of it, there could be a
number of reasons why
It could be because of the lack of
integration that exists.
It could be because of the experiences that
some of the kids and again just to
be quite frank
that even some of the Arabic speaking kids
have.
Who have parents that have maybe
liquor stores
in black communities.
So their experiences with the black community
are very limited to their experiences with their
shops.
And then they project that on all African
Americans, even their brothers.
And I I I again, this is something
that I've witnessed firsthand
in this interaction of youth. This is now
like 3rd generation
where you would hope that it wasn't so
prevalent anymore.
But I've seen the whole referring to
they're always like that. I've heard those words.
Yes. Did these brothers always like that? What
do you mean with these brothers?
Uh-huh. Right? And
the only three times I've had to break
up a fight
because of people putting hands was African American
and Arabic
and and and and Arab brothers.
So we we we do have to somehow,
like, acknowledge that. And, yeah. Our Arab and
whatever immigrant brothers I'm not saying, Sheikh. Right?
Yeah. That is the fault of the Arab
brothers? No. No. Or the African Americans. That's
what I'm saying. I'm saying that's what it
is. Our Arab and Arab and immigrant brothers,
they're gonna be like, well, I don't own
a liquor store and I don't say that
to my kids and I don't or like
I never heard that from my I know.
Majority of people are not gonna be like
that.
But what we're asking you is not to,
like, self flagellate for someone else's sins. What
we're just asking is, like, can you just,
like, at least keep it in your heart
that there's some maybe some of your African
American brothers have gone through these experiences from
somebody else who was unscrupulous.
And can you acknowledge that that that it
happened and try to, you know, maybe
reach out and and and make it clear
that you are welcome and we don't look
at you that way in order to to
reverse? Because that's what always what happens.
The people there's a certain set of people
who cause, mischief and they break things,
and they're they're the ones that, you know,
we ask Allah to have mercy on them
because,
you know, there's not really much good that's
gonna come from them. And then there are
the blessed people who are the most beloved
to Allah, who are the ones who take
somebody else's mess and they clean it up
and take someone else's thing that's broken and
they fix it. And Allah, as a result,
a, gives them the greatest share of his
love and, b, then all the reward of
the fix it of being fixed for everybody.
It all gathers up, and then it's the,
crown that that sits on their head that
can you just, like, hear these experiences and
be like, look, we wanna be the ones
who fix even though we're not the ones
who caused the mess. And if you are
causing the mess and you wanna fix it,
that's.
If if I could just just address the
whole issue of
the, the the stores
that are owned by Muslims
in the African American
community who openly
sell liquor, pork,
alcohol,
gambling lottery tickets.
In some places,
* under the table
in the black community.
And I go into these stores,
and they have
Quran,
Arabic all over signs.
You hear the other one going off in
the stores On the phone. On the phones,
And it
it makes you wanna throw up.
And the way that they look
at the people in the community
Right.
Is even worse.
And check boosted kind of, you know, touched
on it a little bit
because when you're selling alcohol to african americans
and they come in drunk
and they come in under the influence of
drugs,
people get maybe may get the perception that
quote, unquote,
all of African Americans are like this. And
so they take these stories home.
And when you hear them say words like
abid
I told you that story. Okay. Behind the
counter.
Abid
is the n word
Yep. And everybody knows it.
And when you hear them say Abid in
these stores and they think nobody knows what
they're talking about,
you know,
if
those
clients in that store knew what they were
calling them,
they would get treated the same way a
white person would get
treated by calling that person an n word.
Right.
Because that's where it comes from.
I have a a story.
One other point,
this whole issue of racial
prejudice
that's caused by the colonists, but it says
caused by white America
has put this wedge between us as Muslims.
I grew up, as you know, through an
African American community.
Okay?
Being involved in a lot of African American,
American, focused issues
as far as Islam is Islam is concerned.
But that's not Islam.
That's not Islam.
For us to have African American Muslims silo
over here,
you know,
and
a Arab silo over here,
you know, and a Pakistani
silo over here.
And
I became
when I made Hajj,
I had an epiphany at that point.
So I'm gonna go back to America.
I'm gonna go back to an African American
mosque
where it's just African American people,
where I break bread with African American Muslims.
This ain't right.
I'm just leaving Hajj
with all these different rainbows, and I'm seeing
the beauty of Islam.
And I had to make a choice, a
tough choice.
Well, I had to decide if I was
gonna continue to spin out the last whatever
years of my life
in a segregated
community
or to try to reach out
and to find a mosque
that at least
had some semblance of diversity.
And it was a tough choice for me.
It was a tough but I knew I
knew in my heart that that's what Islam
is supposed to be.
It's not supposed to be bitter African American
Muslims
huddled together because the Arabs don't like them.
It's not supposed to be an African American
masjid,
okay, that feels comfortable
because they don't like us over there.
We need to find that sweet spot
in the Muslim community.
And so I had to really think about
it, and I decided that I was just
gonna test the waters and find a community
that wasn't 100%
African American.
And I decided and this isn't the plug
for any particular community.
Okay? Please go ahead. Plug away. Okay.
But
I'm a member of Mace. Yeah. I'll I'll
I'll put the plug for you. Sheikh Mohammed
has been a board member or trustee at
Mace for a number of years now and
is whenever whatever involvement I've had
had a lot to do with his involvement
as well. What what is MACE for our
This is the most challenged yours? Muslim Association
of Cleveland East.
And we have, there is a a a
pretty diverse group of leadership there. Imani at
some point was also there. So
alhamdulillah. Yes.
And so I first, I just started attend,
MACE. It was even before the new mosque
was built when it was a small building.
And I never once
felt
the type of
uncomfortableness
that I felt when I would go to
other mosques that weren't African American. Masha Allah.
Not to say that it's perfect,
but at least
I didn't it it didn't hit me in
the face.
Okay?
So I decided that I was gonna give
it a try and and this was almost
8 years ago. And I began to do
things and
I was nominated
by members of MICE to be part of
the board and the board
voted me to be
the chairman of the board, which I worked
for 3 years, the board of trustees.
And now my time expired, and I'm just
on the board right now.
But I say that because
despite all that, it's still not perfect.
Nothing is perfect. This is the dunya.
You know?
So if we're looking for a utopia,
we ain't gonna find it here. Facts. Okay?
And that's what I keep in my mind
all the time. There's no utopia on this
earth.
Okay? And it's that way for a reason
because people with that are sitting in this
circle,
people that are watching this podcast,
they need to understand that it's not gonna
change because we may do up. It's not
gonna change because we we we stay in
our own particular,
you know,
communities. We have to actively do the work.
It's not gonna come down from the sky.
People are gonna actually have to do the
work and struggle to make this thing happen
where Muslims can can can can be together
as one.
I mean,
you know, this is sheikh Amin, the the
patron of Dar Al Qasim at, which,
Sheikh Musa teaches currently, and I've also taught
in the past and,
look to for for a lot of guidance,
in matters of ilm. He's very fond of
mentioning this, that in Hajj, one of the
the one of the important parts of Hajj,
it's a rukun for everyone but the Hanafis,
I I get that, is the Sahih going
back and forth between Mhmm. Safa and Marwa.
And,
means to strive.
And it's it was a Mubarak act that
Hajar, the mother of Sinai Ishmael, ran back
and forth looking for the water.
And Allah loved it so much that every
believer has to do this for their Hajj
and Umrah to be complete until the day
of judgment.
And he's very fond of mentioning this, that
running back and forth between the the the,
two mountains
doesn't create water.
Allah gave the water
with you know, in a completely miraculous way
that was connected to any any effort.
But he still wanna see you hustle.
He doesn't wanna sit you see you sit
down and wait for it to come to
you even if even if all it is
is you you do something even though you
know that it's not gonna it's not gonna
come in come with any result. Literally, the
worst if we were to have, like, modern
urban translation,
hustle.
You gotta hustle. You gotta hustle to make
it happen. You put your net in the
water, the net doesn't create the fish, you
know. But if you're netting in the water,
don't blame Allah if you didn't catch nothing.
You know. Like,
reward
our our our our our Mubarak elder,
and all of those who are hustling, whether
they're known, whether the podcast
mentions you or doesn't mention you,
Allah knows who you are. And those are
the those are the those are the people
who because of them, Allah's mercy and Baraka
comes down on on the entire Jamat.
We definitely appreciate the time of the family,
and this seems like it's gonna have to
continue to, like, a part 2.
And
and then and there's enough of the family
I think that might be able to be
involved to have a part 2 as well.
I don't think we're lacking in participants.
So perhaps we can get back to this
in the near future and we're grateful for
your time. I wanted to hear more out
of awesome and we're working towards that
but, you know, maybe we'll give each of
you a last word if if if you
all don't mind.
Well, I guess I'll just
reiterate
from what I said before how,
you know, as I've grown up in the
same, you know, mainly African American community,
I've always wondered, like, what it would be
like
if we were all united, like, in one
community or one big eater. You know, every
every 3 months have one big
Cleveland Muslim community, you know, iftar or dinner.
And, you know, obviously, like a b said,
you know, there's nothing nothing's gonna be perfect.
You know, there's always gonna be differences. There's
always gonna be, you know, people don't like
each other. But if we can come together
as a mass,
you know, ignore the sort of smaller, you
know, side side,
beefs or whatever you wanna call them and
and move past,
you know, the days of old
and move forward, you know, with, with new
leadership, you know,
new ideas
and, sort of use those and come together
as one.
I think that would that could also, you
know, bring a part change in America and
the Muslim communities of America. You know, Cleveland
was once one of the big, big was
in the forefront of the Muslim community in
America. We can do that once again in
uniting the Muslims of America, and they could
start with Cleveland. We just have to, you
know, have these
conversations, you know, make it aware of the
past, but also, you know, move forward with
new leadership and and and hopefully that could
create something special in the future. I mean,
Kareem? And then we let your father have
a problem.
I guess the the only thing I I
have left to say for now, because I
I definitely wanna be a part of part
2, because there's a lot more that needs
to be said. But in any organization,
like, if you're talking about Masjid, it's always
gonna be a microcosm
of the
society the society in which it resides. Right?
So whatever like, we're in America. It's got
its own inherent problems that were built upon
what we all know. It was built upon
slavery
and the dichotomy of liberty versus slavery. It
was all built upon that. So if you
have a, community of Muslims that is
is is inside of that,
it's going to take on its
root, its flavor, its essence. Right? But we
have the answer.
We we have we have Islam. Right? So
if we can do what we need to
do inside of our own communities, we can
influence America,
because there is no other answer.
The answer is Islam.
And that's the beauty of it. That's the
beauty of Islam, is that it's the answer
for everything.
So we can we can root out everything
that America was built on
and encapsulate this country in Islam. It can
happen, and inshallah will.
Yes. I just like to end with this,
comment that there's things called conscious
and unconscious
discrimination.
And no one owns that. No race owns
that. No particular
nationality
owns that.
And until we recognize
as a Uma
that there are conscious
racism that exists within us
and unconscious
racism that this that that exists within us,
we're gonna
we're not gonna make any progress.
Okay?
Because all of us have our own
unconscious and conscious
discrimination.
But what we need to do is that
we need to work together despite that
and recognize that.
And that's what the prophet, peace be upon
him, said in his last sermon.
Okay. For someone to look at me and
say, I don't see
you as a black person,
I automatically think that they're racist. It's funny.
Because that's not what Allah said.
Allah said he created us what?
Each house. In different
colors that we would know each other. Right.
So don't look at me and say, when
I look at you, brother, I don't see
you as a black muscle, a black American
man. I just see you as muscle.
Okay? So we need to understand that that
we need to accept,
you know, the rainbow of color that we
have as Muslims.
And we need
to accept the good that we have to
ask that we that we have to add
to this community,
and we need to build upon that.
And that the problem is in the leadership
in the in the Muslim community that exists.
And as Asim
said, you know, sooner or later, the passing
of the torch is gonna happen
to young men when he's 30 years old,
when he's 20 5 years old, his generation?
What are they learning from us?
Where will Islam be when he's at the
point in a community
where he may have to take on a
position of the board.
What signals are they getting from us, the
elders? And I would like to finally say
that these type of things that
Sheikh Musa,
Tristan, and the other brothers that are here,
this podcast, I think, is is is is
quite quite special
because we're taking advantage of this medium
in order to address, as
the check said, some very difficult difficult
discussions.
Okay? And only
you can only heal by breaking the scab.
And there's a lot of scabs going around.
So we gotta pull that scab off. We
gotta let the fresh air get to it.
And inshallah, we'll all learn from it. I
mean, if you're in Charlotte. I mean, I
saw I wanna make you smart.
I just wanted to do, some closure remarks.
I just wanna say thank you to, the
Cleveland Public Library, as we are using the
equipment from, that institution to record this information.
And, Inshallah, in the future, there will be
some opportunities for us to do some work
with,
the public library in Cleveland. So, just wanted
to kinda end on that note before we,
close with the dot inshallah.
Allah your father and your grace your quram
brought
us on this Mubarak hour of this Mubarak
day together. This is the Mubarak day of
Friday, and these are the hours before the
Mubarak day of Friday are going to close.
We seek the the the moment of your,
answering our prayers that you should forgive us
and forgive the Ummah of Sayidna Muhammad
and that you should rectify our state and
rectify the state of the Ummah of Sayidna
Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, in this world
and the hereafter.
You're the one who gathered the best of
every home and every tribe and every nation
under La ilaha ilallah.
Starting with Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wasalam and his
Mubarak companions,
And the best of the Persians and the
best of the Turks and the best of
the Abyssinians and the best of all of
the people in every direction, you Allah, black,
white, or whatever color they may be. The
best of the people who speak every one
of the tongues that you, graced,
your creation with. The best of the people
from your creation, you gathered them under the
flag of.
You Allah, unite their hearts and end their
disputes with one another.
You Allah you Allah, synchronize their hearts and
end their disputes with one another and make
amongst them those who when they speak, the
people will listen. And when they command, the
people will obey. And when they prohibit, the
people will desist. You Allah, increase their numbers
and strengthen them and quicken them in their
minds and in their hearts and in their
spirits, in their speech and in their actions.
You Allah, increase their ranks and make us
the first ones to serve them and make
us the first ones that are under their
flag and in their camp and make us
the first ones who who love them in
our hearts and the ones who support them
in our deed and in our speech and
make us into them. You Allah and protect
us from ever being the ones who oppose
them. And you Allah, whoever the mischief makers
are from your creation,
give relief to the Ummah of Sayid Muhammad
from their mischief. You Allah, weaken them and
confound their plots and schemes and make their
their their plots and schemes their own destruction
between each other. Make their them them fight
with one another and give relief to your
creation and relief to the Ummah, You
Allah, and protect us from ever being the
ones who love them or speak in their
favor or serve them or do, anything in
their in their service or in their support,
whether it's inward or outward, hidden or, secret
or or public, You Allah, and protect us
from ever being amongst them. You Allah, whatever
the the noble plans and the noble wishes
and desires and and and and intentions the
prophet
had for the betterment of this creation and
this mankind and for the betterment of this
creation, you Allah. Bless us and honor us
by being the ones who,
are the ones in our tongues and in
our limbs and in our hearts who carry
this project forward and keep it alive, you
Allah,
even despite the plots and the schemes,
of of those people who don't know you
or your Rasool, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. And
even if their plots and schemes were so
magnificent and so great that they would make
mountains rent asunder.