Hamza Tzortzis – The Problem of Evil!

			Welcome back to epistemic we are joined once again with Hamza Doherty's salaam aleikum wa Alaykum wa
sallam or Mattila he were very cattle. Okay, bro, let's quickly move on the problem of evil.
		

			It's not a problem. Okay, why isn't it a problem? It's not a problem, because it doesn't make sense.
But before we argue why it doesn't make sense, as an argument against God, or some kind of position
that undermines theism, we have to discuss what is the problem of evil? Okay, so why don't you
summarize for us what the problem of evil is? Okay, well, the problem of evil can be summarized in
the following way, a popular conception can be summarized in the following way.
		

			It is
		

			unbelievable, which really means highly unlikely, it is highly unlikely that a good witch can also
include a loving and merciful etc. A good an all powerful God exists with all of the evil and
suffering that happens and occurs in the world. Okay. And so expound upon that a bit. So explain.
Okay, well, what they're basically saying is, well, if God is genuinely good, comes maximally
perfect. His names and attributes are to the highest degree possible. So his goodness is to the is
to the highest degree. He's loving, he's merciful, then surely he doesn't want evil and suffering to
occur. Yeah. Right. They're saying, well, since it does occur, that we may have to question his
		

			goodness, right. On the other hand, since it does occur, and we try and maintain the fact that he's
still good and merciful, then we have to question his power. Okay, if he's good, he wants evil to
stop by he doesn't stop the evil, then maybe doesn't have the power. Right. Okay. So on this
argument, they basically say that it's unbelievable, or highly likely that a good and all powerful
God exists with all of the evil and suffering in the universe. And they, and they come out with some
kind of emotive emotional arguments, like, you know, how dare he, you know, kids die and this cancer
and and no, let's be very honest, I think we have to be honest, the life
		

			parts of life is suffering. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the unique things about the Islamic tradition is
that he accepts that because life is a test. You're not here to boogies not a party. Yeah. That's
paradise. Yeah. And we have to accept the fact that we're going to be tested with suffering.
		

			And sometimes it's the type of suffering that we can't really explain emotionally.
		

			And the unique thing about the Islamic tradition is it gives us the tools, existential, spiritual,
etc, tools to transcend suffering by giving the right meaning to suffering. But that's another
discussion to have. But yeah, so that's, that's the argument nutshell. So it's a flawed argument.
Okay. So this one will do today, people have heard you break down this argument, right? You've
written about your essays, they are linked in the description below. I want you to briefly break
down the whole argument quickly. But why I really want to focus in on what you just mentioned, okay?
Is those real practical tools that Islam gives you Okay, to deal with life, basically, I think
		

			that's going to be far more impactful for the people watching this. But before even all both of
those things, is one more thing I want to quickly touch upon. You know, this whole argument of the,
the whole problem of evil, they throw this against God and say, therefore, God does not exist. How
does that fit into the puzzle? Right? This is one thing addressing the problem of evil, but does the
saying what the saying your conception of God doesn't exist? Right. Okay. Because we don't just say
God exists. We say, Well, he's powerful. Yes, he's merciful. Okay, well, that good, isn't it, but it
doesn't deny God's existence. It doesn't deny a creator. Yeah. So in the Islamic tradition, this
		

			wouldn't undermine the kind of the rubia Amala, meaning the creative power of, of God, that is the
only unique creative, Steena, maintainer, and owner everything that exists. Yeah, what it does is
attacking the other aspect of tawheed oneness of God in the Islamic tradition, which is the total
heat of a smallest effect the names and attributes, because we believe God is. Alibaba is a source
of goodness, he's a man, he is intensely merciful. He is a little dude, he is the loving and so
forth and so on. And he is the powerful, it's attacking that aspect of his one, right? The one of
affirming the oneness of the Divine, and in this context, is his names and attributes, or you could
		

			say in a kind of general way, his nature, so they would argue, you know, you can't have your cake
and eat it. Yeah, you don't just believe in an abstract kind of creative tool, you know, that you
know, you know, a day just that you just believe in a creator and he just gave you the he's a
landlord that gave you the keys and ran away. That's not the creator that you believe in. He's, you
actually give him names and attributes. He's good. And he is loving, yes, merciful, that God can't
exist by virtue of the level of even a suffering in the world.
		

			But that's still a false argument. Okay. And this is. So this moves me on to the next point, because
in your book, for example, or in this particular chapter on the problem of evil, you mentioned that
there are some daring assumptions. Yeah, that was me versus other philosophers, or Christian and
other philosophers that have really responded to the atheist critique here. And basically, that the
problem of evil, the problem, the problem of evil and suffering argument has two daring assumptions.
Number one, that God is only good and all powerful. And number two, that God that Allah hasn't given
us any good reasons, or any reason why he's allowed even a suffering in the first place. Because
		

			what they've done, they've abstracted away Gods names and attributes from the rest of his names and
attributes. So they've taken goodness and power, and they removed them from all the other names and
attributes of the Divine in the Islamic tradition and other theistic traditions. Yeah. So they're
like, okay, let's ignore God. This is take just two of his attributes, right? And then attack them.
But what you're doing, you're building a straw man. Yeah, you're actually attacking a straw man,
you've misrepresented God in our tradition, because in our tradition, Allah is not only good and all
powerful. He's also the wise. He's Akeem he's LLM, he is the wise, he is annoying, and so forth, and
		

			so on. And so on, and so forth. Right? So, and in the Islamic tradition, we don't see his names and
attributes in abstraction in isolation, we see them via his oneness. Do you see? So they built a
straw man of the Divine? Why do you think they do that? Is they I think they don't understand is the
theism so what do you think they're basing that on? Like, what's important for you add that, if we
ask that question, what's important is to is to say, well, when we include the fact that allies are
lacking, when we include the fact that Allah Allah name, his, his, the wise, and he is the knowing,
it undermines the whole argument. How? Because, okay, he's good and powerful, but he's also the
		

			wise, okay, so if if it does happen, we know there is always there is goodness. And if there is a
wisdom, that means there is a reason, so and that wisdom can reconcile the fact that there is even a
suffering, even though God is goodness, and powerful. Maybe there's some kind of divine good purpose
behind everything that we're not aware of. Now, you may argue, not aware of, isn't that a cop out?
Mr. zoetis? Yeah, Mr. Hussein, isn't that a cop out? Well, not really. Because, when, because we're
talking about God's wisdom here. And you know, that never, you're never going to know the totality
of God's wisdom. If that's the case, either you become God, which is impossible, right? By virtue of
		

			your contingent nature, right? Yeah, limited nature, or you've humanized God, which therefore you've
just basically misrepresented who he really is, because he's his wisdom and knowledge is going to be
maximally perfect. He's going to have the totality of knowledge and wisdom, we're gonna have
fragmentary pieces, Allah is gonna have the picture, we will just have a pixel. And it's not a cop
out, because we're referring to the nature of God, not the fact of, oh, have we been given
particular wisdoms for particular instances of human suffering? That's a different discussion. We're
saying, well, we're talking about who he is. Right? And you attacked first. From that point of view?
		

			Do you see my voice? Yeah. So we say, Well, he's wise. Now you're not saying oh, I don't know the
wisdom. That's my problem. Now, that's a different discussion, that that's not a problem of evil
argument anymore. That's a different discussion. And one would argue by virtue of who God is, you
never know all of God's wisdom anyway. Just like, I mean, how is it a cop out? Let's, let's turn the
tables man. When you go to school or university, do you have access to all of the wisdom of that
particular professor? No, you have to work your way up, you have to study and there's gonna be a
time where the professor's wisdom is way beyond above yours or his knowledge is above yours, bro.
		

			This is basic epistemology, basic study of of knowledge. Dr. Elizabeth fricker. She basically says
that, given that she has limitations, she's not going to know everything. Right? She has to refer to
the authority of others. Like when I'm on a plane, and the pilot says, you know, we're gonna have
severe turbulence, sit down and buckle up. I'm not gonna say what does he know yet?
		

			I'm not gonna say what does he know? I'm gonna basically do a moonwalk on the aisle. No, I'm gonna
listen to him by virtue of his authority, because he has wisdom and knowledge that I cannot access.
I don't I don't know much about turbulence. I know. It's to do with pressure and stuff. That's it,
right? We're going to go to a doctor and I give my symptoms and they say, you have to take this
medicine. I don't say would you know, I'm not a medical practitioner. I don't know the molecular
molecular structure of that particular compound. Why am I challenging them? I have to refer to them
by virtue of their wisdom and authority or knowledge is beyond mine. So it's, it's not a cop out and
		

			what we do in our day to day life all the time, and you won't you wouldn't put yourself in the
position where you wouldn't take the medicine and argue Oh, until I understand the reasons I take
the medicine I'm not going to be stupidity, stupid.
		

			be stupid. But what's interesting here is that we have to assume we have epistemic limits.
		

			Especially when you're trying to understand God's knowledge and wisdom. Yeah, we are epistemically
limited. If we epistemic Lee limited in a human sense, there are other people with knowledge that we
can't access and we can never know, all knowledge because, you know,
		

			domains of knowledge have increased in progress so far that you'd have to spend 50 lifetimes to
capture all of that knowledge. So if we're epistemically limited in a human context, and imagine
what the divine because Case in point pretty much, I think, yeah, let me summarize it this way.
		

			They would have to prove that God's wisdom is logically incompatible with the evil and suffering in
the universe. So we'll leave that challenge and in that comment section, it's absolutely possible,
but secondary on that particular point, I think in your book you mentioned so referring to the
individuals that take this position and say look, would you mean wisdom? I can't see the wisdom as
ego sent a type of egocentrism nice I like that. So it shows I've read your book right? But
		

			so what what do you mean can you just clarify that particular point? What What are you trying to
suggest there? Well, why I was arguing is I really believe that the problem even argument is genuine
for many people because it is don't understand why there's even a suffering and that they have
genuine humanistic impulses. So Professor Bernard schweiss, I believe so you pronounce his name he
wrote a book called
		

			hating God, The Untold Story of me so theism me so miso means hatred in Greek Theo's theism means
God, right? So the untold story of Musa theism. And he is published by Cambridge, I think it's
Cambridge. And he basically says that these people, these mizo, theists, people who believe in a
creator by hate God, because of you know, suffering in the world, in the world, they begin by having
genuine humanistic impulses, which is fine. So it's based on a genuine human humanistic impulse,
empathy, sympathy, right? compassion. But what they do now is, they get consumed by that to a level
where it gets mixed with the ego, if you like, and they think now that my way of seeing and
		

			understanding things is the only way. And that's egocentrism is a cognitive bias, that your way of
seeing things is the only way. So what do they do? They now say, Well, God has to feel what I'm
feeling, he has to understand that even though suffering the way I understand that even in
suffering, he has to, you know, see it and understand it from my perspective. And that's where they
feel right. They get the they fall into the kind of abyss and quagmire of, of egocentrism, because
they basically humanize God from their point of view, because they are saying this, I can't
understand why there's even a suffering in the world. I could never even fathom, you know, or
		

			comprehend why a child will have to go through this, this suffering, or why there's so much famine,
and war, and it's just, you know, life kicks in the mouth. It's full of suffering. I can't
understand this. It doesn't make any sense. Right? So what they'd say is basically, well, God now
has no reasons, in a way, or they basically think that
		

			God find him he exists, but then there's something wrong with him now, because I don't understand.
Yeah. So what we have to appreciate here is, it's not that God wants even a suffering to happen. He
just sees something that we don't. He has a wisdom and knowledge, he has wisdom and knowledge that
we don't have. And that's what we just have to appreciate. So egocentrism, hopefully I've explained
that properly. But egocentrism is a cognitive bias, that the only way of seeing things is your own
way. Do you think that's what they're saying? I can't see the reason for you know, suffering in the
world. Whoever has done this, even though suffering is evil themselves. So what they've done now is
		

			I said, Well, since they believe that perspective, is the only perspective because they have
egocentrism, then God must be evil. And God is an accomplice to evil, right? And he must be fought
against right? That's what Misa theism is, what do you think in that whole process, they lose that
so intuitive understanding that hold on the one that gave me compassion and mercy and I'm expressing
right now? Surely must be? Yeah, I mean, well, more merciful than I am. Yeah, if they do believe in
a creator, then obviously, because that's what the challenging here the creator of love is the
source of life is a source of compassion. He must be more loving and compassionate. And I am.
		

			Agreed, but that's the problem here. The problem is the Miss understand God's nature. So they're
basically saying that my perspective is the only perspective I can't find any reason why there's
even a suffering in the world. And whoever has done this must be evil. And since they're saying this
perspective, is the only perspective because they have egocentrism, then they say, Well, God must be
evil. He's an accomplished evil. And this is a cognitive bias. They can't say, maybe, maybe God see
something that we don't maybe there is a divine wisdom. They don't entertain that because they can't
see
		

			themselves, they can't explain it themselves, they're really upset. And this for them is the only
way of seeing things. Guess what? egocentrism basically dictates that your way of understanding
something is the only way, the only perspective. And therefore if you come to the conclusion that
there's no reason, there's no wisdom, and who has done this as evil, then they're basically saying
that God is evil. For them, he made it really clear. quickly moving on to the second assumption,
what is the second assumption that God hasn't given us any good reasons why there's even a suffering
in the world, but he has like a test. So as you're gonna be tested, he was suffering. Okay, simple
		

			as that. And there's many other reasons in the Quran and the prophetic traditions, I asked everybody
to explore I think this essays on my, on my website,
		

			and many other good books, Muslim or non Muslim that addresses topic, why do you think many of the
atheists fall into the trap of thinking or assuming that God has created them in this life to be a
type of paradise? Well, they haven't they don't even go to the festival. No, but it's in the lecture
this the second assumption, right, which is that they don't believe God has any good reasons to
permit evil and suffering. Hence, the in a way, assuming that this life should be just perfect
without any flaws or imperfections. Yeah, I mean, that's because it's linked to the first one as
well. Because if God is wise, yeah, then he's gonna, there are reasons and wisdoms but for why this
		

			about myself, I'm trying to figure out why is it Why do you think well, they're assuming the default
position has to be Oh, bliss? Yeah, but at least much less suffering? Yeah. Why did you think that
or suffering to the extent where they can comprehend and they can ration? Yes. Yeah. That's because
they are auto deists.
		

			The auto days is they somehow worship themselves.
		

			From the point of view that well, you know,
		

			my rational faculties my reason, right, what I believe, yeah, is the reference point is the only
way. Okay, and since since since I can't understand this, or know, what what am I saying? I've lost
my train of thought, now. train of thought was the thing. So auto DS. Yeah. But when I say that, you
mentioned it, because I asked you.
		

			What was asking is, why do you think they assume this life should be better than it actually pans
out to be sometimes, or it should pan out as they expect it to pan out? You know, I don't remember.
But anyway, the auto days by virtue of the fact that they almost worship the reason and they worship
their perspective, and the that they seem to be not willing to believe that there is a higher wisdom
and a higher intelligence, if you like, that has knowledge and wisdom or even a suffering that you
can't access, but yet, make make sense of the world.
		

			So from that point of view, they can appreciate that, which is a bit self defeating, because the
whole point of continuing on your path of knowledge is to have that humility and appreciate that
there is another being, even if it's the same species are another human being that is far more
intelligent and wise than me. Now, by greater reason, God is going to be more intelligent and wise
than you. So that's why I call them auto Deus. From that point, you're just worshiping your own
rational faculties and limited.
		

			And you can't say just because you can't explain it, and it's, you know, you're overwhelmed by
emotion.
		

			It doesn't mean now that they're that God doesn't have the wisdom and knowledge behind these things.
But you know, it's very interesting as well, it's for me, and this is a general point. And it's not.
It's not a strong intellectual point. But I think there's something there. You know, when you travel
the world, and you go to like places that, you know, developing countries and people who are poor,
and they go through suffering. Some people have a meal every two days, or once a day, or even people
even worse, more war torn countries. These people sometimes many times get closer to God. Isn't it
interesting? And the ones on YouTube and Facebook right? In the middle class, upper middle class,
		

			living room? Yeah. They're the one with the problem. And for me, you know what it is? Is auto deism.
Yeah, like they just they want to throw the dice. That's what
		

			they want to throw the dice because they don't have control because they're so egocentric, so
egotistical, that I am the Master of Myself and my destiny. I can't have a master above me. But your
problem is not an intellectual one as we've just shown. Yeah, it's more of an emotional one. Really?
They want to throw the dice, bro. That's what it is. Isn't it interesting Bazan interesting see well
go for war, poverty. You know, they find meaning in their life to figure they get perspective. They
figure things out many Yeah, obviously we have people who go through struggles and trials for sure.
And they can't deal with it. But generally speaking meanings, people who have faced a lot of evil
		

			and suffering, they deal with it, and they believe in going and get closer to God. But these
youtubers or philosophers or so called thinkers, who really in the grand cosmic scheme of things
haven't suffered a day in their life, and I go mega
		

			This is because you want to throw the dice.
		

			throw the dice. Bermondsey, Sam Harris is Erica summers, his book waking up. This is a section in
the way. He complains about a leak in his, in his home. He keeps reoccurring. And it's almost a
point of suffering for him that he's trying to get across. And someone coming to some refer back to
that said, he couldn't think of a more of a sort of real life meaningful example, then then a tap
leak, basically. And that shows this or reflects upon the point you're saying that we have a easy,
we complain about, we just want to throw the dice, they want to throw the dice, they don't want to
control here. So yes, okay, let's, let's move on to what's actually I think going to be more
		

			beneficial. Now. So you just mentioned, based on the second assumption that look, this slide away, I
have to make a general point that this doesn't. This is in no way undermines people's genuine
suffering. You know, even people who start to question God, and because they suffered a lot in their
life, it's not to undermine those experiences any shape or form, we're making a kind of general
intellectual argument here that the argument against God or undermining God's existence by virtue of
inner suffering really doesn't logically follow. And it's based on two daring assumptions. Yeah. But
on a personal level, when you're dealing with someone, you know, going to start saying, Oh, you
		

			know, you don't believe in God, because your son's disabled, and you've been taking care of your son
for 18 years, how dare you, you're so unintellectual, you're an auto dazed, you are an egocentric
person, no, you're not going to do that. You can't speak to people like that we're making a general
point here. But when it comes to a one to one interaction, you have to listen with intention to
understand, you have to empathize, you have to connect with them. And you just have to sometimes be
very, very good listeners or, you know, provide help get them help if it might be counseling, maybe
other friends and family use. And you need to take them on that journey. And when you're ready to
		

			show them the intellectual position here that even though you've suffered so much, it doesn't
undermine God's existence and the fact that he's worthy of worship. And you could start to show them
the powerful nature of Islamic tradition, where the spiritual tools in Islam allow us to transcend
suffering, from the point of view that we give a different meaning to suffering. And that allows us
to cope better, right? So wrote, let's wrap this up. But like I said, Give us Islamic perspective.
You said, Look, the assumption is that there is no good reasons for God to promote evil and
suffering. Well, there is God created this life as a test. Yeah. And that God is not only going to
		

			pass, he's also the wise and annoying. So understanding that and I'm sure people can pick up a copy
of the Quran, read it for themselves and understand the real philosophy of life, if you like, What's
life already really all about? But we mentioned tools in the beginning, that Islam gives you tools,
practical tools that you can implement and use in your day to day life throughout life, which will
help you if you like, navigate the stormy seas of Yes, like difficulties in life itself. What are
the give us some practical tools? Well, because we're talking to people and most people in this
world, they don't have these tools. And they they can't I mean, a lot of these tools are contingent
		

			on belief, right? But nevertheless, for example, look,
		

			in the grand cosmic scheme of things, right. This is the first kind of conceptual tool if you want
to call it that,
		

			or theological tool, you have a life that's full of suffering, and you're a Muslim, and you die. You
go paradise.
		

			It sounds really weird, but it's true. This is this is a fact. And the Prophet sallallahu alayhi.
wasallam said, in a prophetic tradition, I'm paraphrasing that someone who is destined for paradise
and they suffered a whole lifetime and they were dipped in paradise for a moment, they will be
asked, Did you ever suffer? And they would say, by God, I've never suffered, right? So there's light
at the end of the tunnel, in any for anyone for everyone, right? If you believe in Allah subhanho wa
Taala, you worship Him, there's always light at the end of the tunnel, right? So that gives you
hope, and hope is very powerful. We are creatures of hope. So hope is a very powerful tool, in order
		

			to, you know, transcend suffering from that point of view. Another way of looking at is, is will
give the right meaning to suffering.
		

			Because sometimes we give meaning to suffering. And that meaning is, is the meaning that makes us
suffer even more.
		

			For example, and God forbid I, you know, I wouldn't want this to happen to anybody say,
		

			your daughter passes away, right? God forbid, my love, protect and preserve your family.
		

			You could start giving the wrong type of meaning like, Oh my God, I've lost the best thing in my
life. I'm not going to be the same person. You get into depression. You start blaming everybody, you
start hating on people, you start crying every day, which is these are all natural things, generally
speaking, but you you basically can't see the bigger picture the meaning that you give to it is,
life is pointless. Life is full of suffering. There was no point in her dying. Why did this have to
happen to me? That's the kind of meaning you're giving
		

			To this, this, this the suffering that you've that you faced in your life, but what you can do is
give the Islamic meaning, right, give God's meaning to suffering, which is you know what a man.
		

			You know, the one that create your child, that was a gift for you, and that he just took back.
		

			And that he owns us and owns her as well. And he just took her back, he basically and he, and he's
in that love that you had for your daughter, he is the source of that love. Imagine how loving he
is. This test that he gave you, is because he loves you. Yeah. And if you react appropriately to to
this test, then you're going to go paradise forever, and your daughter is going to be waiting for
you. Do you see my point? There's more to it than that. But it is a different type of meaning you
give to human suffering, he doesn't mean you're going to cry, it doesn't mean you're going to be
upset, it doesn't mean you're going to even maybe be in fluctuating depression here and there
		

			contextual type of depression. But you're giving it a divine meaning that allows you to transcend
your suffering, you don't fall into the pit of despair. And that is very powerful, even in cognitive
science to talk about these things like four or five strategies or benefits of suffering and evil,
right? If you add the Islamic psychological and spiritual aspects to these things, yeah, it helps
you to, to, to flow, you know, to navigate the stormy seas of life. So, you know, you give me some
Yeah, no, I was just when you mentioned those points, I was reminded me of the process, Ellen
peepees.
		

			When his because the Prophet suffered to Islam gives you not only it puts things into perspective,
but it gives you the tools to be able to navigate life properly, right. And at the end of the day,
like you're saying, it's one way of looking at it, it's a dream that you're going to wake up from,
right, and dreams don't last. They may be difficult. They may be a nightmare. Sometimes, when you
wake up the next day, and within a few hours, it's gone. Yes. So that is something very powerful.
And I think that's something people are missing. People don't have these tools. They can't even
think of these. And one of the things I was thinking of when you mentioned those points, really
		

			think of it from a naturalist perspective. Yeah, I was gonna put something actually because I was
just thinking that you know, this whole thing, this reaction you you you express, which was why is
this happening to me shouldn't happen to me yet. Why does she have to die? These questions wouldn't
shouldn't even really make sense. For someone that's a naturalist. Yeah, because it's it's all just
me, it's all a meaningless. Well, you know what, there's a reading arrangement, powerful. Powerful.
Do I need glasses? I hope I don't.
		

			Bear with me this would love to see Hamza in glasses. Leave in the comments below.
		

			So basically, let me find this for you, Brooks. I think it was very, very powerful.
		

			Just bear with me.
		

			Problem, apparently, while you're looking for it, Darwin himself subu mentioned a while back, Darwin
himself lost his faith in God when he does when his daughter died. Yeah, yeah, these are tests. But
this is why it's very important to be connected to the divine. And the way to connect to the divine
is understanding who he is, what's his names and attributes, and to worship Him as He deserves to be
worshipped. Those two things have to come together. And then when you face a test and trials of
life, then you can, you could sell through them, you could you could you could ride the stormy
waves. But if you basically have a false notion of the Divine that his son is, he's just a loving
		

			creator. And that's it. Who's created this paradise? Yeah. And then when when life hits you in the
face, what you're going to do, but if you don't understand like a lot is that you know, the, the,
the Wise, the knowing is the subtle, he is the source of goodness, he is in all of these names and
attributes, and you worship Him, you glorify Him, and you praise Him, then these things come
together that helps you basically, you know, withstand the trials of life.
		

			But yeah, that's why one would argue that I think it's affected the Christian tradition more than
than the Islamic tradition, because the Christian tradition or the although they do but even a wise
God, I don't, you know,
		

			dismiss them and misrepresent the Christian tradition. But there was a heavy focus on Divine Love,
which is a great thing because you know, Allah's Name is the loving Allah will dude right, which
means comes from the Arabic word would which means and loving that is giving, he's excessively
loving, but they wouldn't talk about the true divine reality, as you know, as who he is. He's not
only the loving, but he's also the mess for and he is the wise and he is the knowing, and all of
these other things. So let me just find this finger thing for you. So there you go. This is a quote,
right, this was from one of our specialist seminars. And I have to give you the contrast between a
		

			naturalistic position.
		

			Bear with me.
		

			There you go.
		

			All right. theism
		

			or atheism natural in, in the In this sense, philosophical naturalism, which is the view that there
is no divine or supernatural I think could be everything could be explained by physical processes.
So contrast these two positions right. You ready?
		

			On the contrary, if the universe would just electrons and selfish genes, meaningless tragedies like
the crashing of this bus is exactly what we should accept expect, along with equally meaningless
good fortune, such universe will neither be would be neither evil nor good intention, it would
manifest no intentions of any kind. In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication,
some people are going to get hurt are going to get hurt. Other people are going to get lucky, and
you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the
properties we should expect, if there is at bottom, no design, no purpose, no good and no evil,
		

			nothing but blind pitless indifference who said this, Mr. Our Professor Dawkins, first, Richard
Dawkins, in his book, river, river, river, river Out of Eden. Now contrast this with a potential
Muslim response. Your pain and suffering will be rewarded with eternal bliss and paradise. If you
suffered for a whole lifetime, and you were dipped in paradise for a moment you feel that you never
suffered. Even suffering exists to test you, elevate you and facilitate a higher spiritual state. It
is meant to bring you closer to the divine, therefore closer to paradise. As a believer, any pain or
suffering is a means to absolve you from the shortcut from your shortcomings and sins. When you're
		

			tested with evil and suffering, it is a sign of Divine Love, for he knows you for he knows you have
the ability to overcome the trials in your life. He knows you better than you know yourself. So you
see the contrast, when we talk about the existential, spiritual psychological tools. It's summarized
in these two points. One is fitness and difference, no evil, no good class get over. The other one
is, well, you know what there is, there is a divine meaning behind this even a suffering and if you
and the way to adopt the divine meaning is to really connect with him continuously. And if you know
Allah, and you worship Him,
		

			the meaning that he gives to us concerning even a suffering is the mean that we adopt, not as some,
okay, I'll adopt your ideas kind of thing, but it will become part of who we are. So we will respond
to even in suffering, the way Allah wants us to respond to even the suffering. Yeah.
		

			So I think that's summarized that really well, anything else you want to add? Before we wrap up?
		

			Yeah, I mean, we need to be very careful to navigate these emotional situations, because people
suffer in this evil and suffering in the world, and there is genuine, and people genuinely suffer.
And, you know, if you engage with your brother and sister in humanity, and they have
		

			doubts in God, or they reject God or religion, because of suffering, that you could never even,
		

			you could even empathize, because you've never experienced it yourself. You need to relax, you can't
start having intellectual dialogue saying, oh, you're incoherent. You know, God is also the wise.
And there's, you have to show the onus of proof is on you to show that, you know, God's wisdom is
logically incompatible with even a suffering in the universe. No, you can't do that. If you don't
connect with them. With you know, with the people like this, you need to connect with them. And if
they need genuine help, you need to take them to professional Of course, yeah. So I'm saying you
have to be very careful the way you basically articulate this. So this was a general point. Problem.
		

			Evil doesn't mean it's not an argument
		

			is based on two false assumptions. Those and we've explained we've showed why we've shown why
they're false. And also, we know we have the spiritual tools in place to deal with this. Now, we
didn't go into detail of all of these things are the nuances. I would humbly suggest go to my
website, Hamza does georgeous.com you could read the article is good. Good, or is God merciful. I'll
link in anyway. Yeah, look it in and there's like, there's other there's other things you can read.
Also, you'll notice my second edition of your the new newly revised edition of your book is going to
be out soon, a
		

			revised edition, you can pick that up and you can read that too, because that there's a whole
chapter in that particular book on this topic and
		

			the first revised it's on the first revision. I don't think I changed the problem of evil chapter at
all still applies. It's free on my website. Okay, so is there or you can buy the physical copy
because there's a lot more good stuff there in there for you guys to read too. So we'll wrap up on
that. If you guys have any questions, any ideas, any views anything you'd like to share? Please
comment in this in the comment section below. Make sure to subscribe and share and until next time,
take care