Hamza Tzortzis – Do We Have Ultimate Value

			Salam Alaikum brothers, sisters and friends. Welcome to another episode of The GDM show. We're back
brother Hamza.
		

			Allahu briquette. How are you? Brother? Good. How are you? Excellent. Very good. So today's topic is
very interesting topic. And that is, if you deny God, you claim you're an atheist and naturalism
materialist, wherever you want to call yourself. Is there any real value to life in the absence of
God? That's actually a very good question. And I think many philosophers, atheists and theists
alike, have been discussing that topic.
		

			I'd like to just the topic with the following question. And don't laugh at me. Which is, what's the
difference between you? And a six foot chocolate bunny? Well, the first obvious difference is
chocolate. And I am not made of chocolate. Yes, but for some people, actually, that might be a big
difference for because I know that people love chocolate and they may love you. And not when you get
it. We do love you. But the point here, that's a good point. That's a very good point of your
existence. Does it have the same value? Or are you more valuable than a human, you know, a more
complex and a chocolate rabbit? I have. I'm living I'm alive with the bunnies a dead piece of food.
		

			Okay, you're Muslim. So from an Islamic perspective, why are you more valuable than a chocolate
bunny? Because God created us, He created us as a very, you know, high form of creation. He gave us
life gave us awareness, consciousness, rationality, he gave us the ability to understand his reality
worship Him. So we're profound from that perspective was special from that he gave us a raw soul
soul, and he's given us eternal life, which is common Sharla is Oh, yes. Right. So there's so much
to human being, which
		

			is not to a chocolate bunny rabbit. Okay. So you grounded your own value from a theistic
perspective, which makes total sense. Of course, that's my, that's my foundation. Okay, let me let
me just basically turn the tables, right. Is that right? Yeah. Say you're an atheist now, and I'm
the Muslim, and I want to discuss with you and I'm gonna ask you a question. So
		

			according to atheism, or mainstream atheism, or a kind of popularized version of atheism if you
like, you know, there's different types of atheism. Yes.
		

			You don't believe you have a soul right? No, no. So according to the first plane that put on the
helmet, no, so just a rearrangement of atoms molecules I'm just a advanced form of a biological
machine if you like are being according to some quick Sam Harris For example, I don't even have any
awareness or consciousness is an illusion that self that I it doesn't exist yet is like a Type A
materialism for consciousness is just like a zombies. illusionary. Okay, that's interesting. So, Mr.
atheist, how Mr. atheist, rather, How are you different from a chocolate bunny consenting value?
Like I said, I'm, I'm complex. I'm a complex biological machine, whereas the chocolate Bunny is a
		

			simple arrangement. Okay, so why is there value in complexity?
		

			More goes into it, I guess, I don't know. But what you put into it than not, there's nothing that
there is no efficient cause. No, that's, that's the point. Now now. Okay. My point what I say if,
if, like most atheists are naturalist, not all of them, but most of my naturals, which they
basically believe that this universe is all that there is that there is no supernatural, if there is
something outside the universe doesn't affect the universe. And essentially, this is more specific
to naturalism, that all phenomena can be described by physical processes can be explained by
physical processes. So if these physical processes are just reduced to pieces of matter, and those
		

			pieces of matter, are just reduced to more pieces of matter if you're like, we're just, we're just
based on prior physical causes, then, what makes you different from each other? I see what you're
saying, because the chocolate bunny Yeah, is just a rearrangement of that matter, random
rearrangement. So you are original matter, the chocolate bunnies are rearrangement of matter. So why
is there any difference from a value perspective? Now you may argue, but I have feelings. I'm human,
I feel pain and ideas of consciousness. But I'm sorry, that sentimentalism can't have a foot in the
door under atheism, because you adjust based on prior random physical processes call the next thing
		

			is yet called non rational,
		

			blind, physical processes. So why does that make any difference? Let me just be a bit more crude,
bro. Yeah. Say I had a gun right here. And I shot the six foot chocolate bunny boom, and he is
splattered all over the floor. Lots of chocolate pieces now, right? What is that? That is a
rearrangement of matter. It's a mess. It's a mess. It's carbon here, there and everywhere. I forgot
the same gun and I put it to your head and I show you and splattered your brains everywhere.
Technically, from an atheistic perspective.
		

			What difference is there? I don't want to hear he's got pain because your pain is reduced to neurons
reduced to prior physical stuff. Yeah. Everything you're saying your emotions, your feelings, your
gasp Yeah, everything is just reduced to prior physical stuff. So the remaining rearrangement of the
chocolate Bunny is just a rearrangement of physical stuff. And the region of view, is this a
rearrangement of physical stuff. So, where's the value?
		

			I'm not saying that atheists don't have is a stupid thing to say, of course, we all do. As human
beings, we believe in Islam. I'm just thinking, the logical implications of atheism, you can account
for the current account for value, ultimate value, you can delude yourself and say this pretend to
have value. Yeah. But if your consciousness, your awareness, your feelings, even the concept of
value, even all your sentimental emotions, all of these things can still be reduced to random, cold,
non rational, non conscious physical stuff, then what difference does it make? That's a sad?
		

			It's very sad. I feel sad right now. Yeah, I know. You made me read.
		

			But the point I'm trying to say here is and this is irrational,
		

			is obviously atheists don't follow through the implications of atheism. And that's why I think, to
be a true atheist is very difficult. That's why I have to follow through with the implications of
atheism, rationally, I think is depressive is and I'm feeling depression right now to an extent, but
it's sad. And the way I like to see is, and this is only with this value, as far as values concern,
take morality take reasoning, all of these things. Whenever atheists appeal to these things, they
borrow from our worldview in some respects, right? Because it's only through God through accepting
this reality, that we can account for all of these things. Yes, you can. You can claim them, but you
		

			can't ever account for them. It's like the analogies of say, you you know how to drive a car, you
drive a car, but you don't believe in engines. You fly a plane, but you don't believe in engines or
wings? Right? This is this is the reality, this is what they're doing effectively, which is, and
really start from that perspective, is that so that's why I'm thinking. That's why I like to ask a
question to do to my fellow brothers and sisters and humanity, my father, atheist and ask them,
okay, fine. This think about the rational implications of atheism, if you do believe,
		

			everything we feel, and we say, and we do all the values that we have the sentiments, the emotions,
if all of these things can be reduced to non rational,
		

			prior physical processes and causes, then what value do we have? And why is that any different from
a chocolate bunny? Yeah. Why? I don't get it done. In reality, you should use the term technical
bias. In reality, there is no real value from that perspective. Okay, we were coming down on a real
low now. So is there any glimmer of hope? What would you say? There is a glimmer of hope? Because
intuitively many people be like, gasping thinking, how dare they? Right? Obviously, like, I'm an
atheist, I believe have value? Of course you do. And that's the beauty of it. The beauty of many
atheists not following through with the implications of atheism shows that there is a fitrah that
		

			there is an innate disposition created by God, to make you understand that there are some objective
things that we believe in and we know, regardless of our so called, man, main ideological and
philosophical perspectives, which is the value of life, our value, our importance, our significance.
Do you see my point here? And that kind of intuition that pressing down upon us that yes, human
value isn't more important than a cold, non rational, non conscious chocolate bunny? Of course it
is. But then I asked him a question. How can you ground that feeling? That feeling can only be
grounded in the existence of God that God created us with this ultimate value with this ultimate
		

			meaning from that perspective.
		

			So that's why I know this has been very conversational, but ask yourself the question, what
difference is there between myself and a sixth chocolate bunny? ask yourself that question. And from
an atheistic, naturalistic physical allistic materialistic point of view. It's all going to reduce
yourself down to prior physical causes. And why does that have it's called random and blind and
that's
		

			The point. So when you add something that's called random and blind plus some that's called random
and blind, or you can get called random and blind. And that's the same thing that's made the
chocolate Bunny, the sameness made you according to the atheistic worldview. So the point here is,
don't say to me all but we have we could do math, then we could do physics and art, this rewind the
clock, it reduces itself still back to prior physical causes. That's an eye opener for me, because I
don't think many people think that deep. It's just a case of following like sheep basically, your
lead is but i think i think this will get many people to think to reflect and especially atheists
		

			out there questionable agnostic individuals out there questioning the lives and reality and
hopefully this will make you guys think, yeah, send us a comment. Let us know what you feel. We're
open to challenges and suggestions from the point of view that oh, I think he got it wrong here.
Maybe this what we mean and this is what we're This one was supposed to believe or whatever, right?
Just give us you know, I have this have a conversation. But I still think as far as what I've
analyzed, is that on the atheism, unit, chocolate Bunny, no real difference and this reminds me of a
verse from the Quran and paraphrase and correct me if I'm wrong, we Allah says, that don't be like
		

			those who forget Allah, and Allah makes them forget themselves. Yes, that is a verse. Yeah. And this
is such a powerful point you that you just made just from the perspective of value. If you look here
from atheism, it just breaks down. Anyway, hopefully that's been fruitful thought for many people.
Thank you for coming on the show next time