Fatima Barkatulla – Islam and the Veil

			Hello. A few years ago, my wife and I were visiting Doha, the capital of Qatar. We were shown around
by a friend of ours who works for Al Jazeera television news. He's a practicing Muslim, the vite
never touches alcohol, precise in his observance of Ramadan. He took us into a cafe. Opposite were
three women all wearing the full face covering. When he brought us our coffee, the cafe owner asked
us to move. A friend asked for the reason. The three women he was told were uncomfortable because we
were directly facing them. Ever obedient. We moved, and we had an interesting discussion about how
you could possibly cause offence when you couldn't see a single part of the woman's face. I confess
		

			it made me feel uneasy and led to some interesting reflections on the interaction between some
Islamic customs and Western society. The Muslim veil is the subject of today's program. What is it?
What does it signify, is wearing it an Islamic requirement or a matter of personal choice? Joining
me are hola Hassan, lecturer on women's rights under Islamic law and media representative of the
Islamic Sharia Council. Fatima Baka Tula who has studied Islamic law and Arabic and is a writer and
lecturer of the Islamic education and research Academy. And Dr. Sharon Najib lecturer in Islam in
the Department of Philosophy and Religion at Lancaster University. I want to define some terms that
		

			will be familiar with all our listeners, hold on what is that he job? And he job in classical
boronic understanding is a curtain and in fact, it's actually a curtain between man and God. And on
the day of judgment when men and women have been incredibly pious and close to God, that curtain
will be lifted. But in modern context is a completely different understanding, which is the clothing
that a Muslim woman wears to cover her modesty and it generally refers to the headscarf. So that's
what you're wearing and what Shahrukh is wearing today. Yes, I would say we're both wearing the
hijab because we're both wearing headscarves. I found them and what is a niqab? Nowadays the niqab
		

			is a small piece of cloth that women use to cover their faces. And usually you can lift it up and
sometimes women will wear a little bit of goals over their eyes or their faces completely covered.
Yes, but then obviously in different situations. If there were no male non relatives present, then
you know, there'll be quite free to uncover their faces. sure of what a burqa. The burqa is
originally an Arabic word. It means face covering, which was actually used for camels as a kind of
harness. But women in Bedouin contexts were wearing kind of burqa, which is like a mask cloth and a
piece of cloth with two openings for the eyes and the nose. Can I say also that the worker is
		

			actually an old to do word as well, in India and in Pakistan, you'll see that the worker is referred
to as just the complete covering. You may have seen pictures of women in Afghanistan, the way that
they dress covering their whole bodies with one kind of garment that is also referred to as the
burqa, but the effect of the Burke and the niqab is very similar, it means that the face is
basically completely covered. Yes, I'm interested in discovering what the Koran has to say about how
you should dress how women should dress and I've picked up just one verse, tell the believing men to
lower their gaze and be modest, and tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and
		

			to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their
bosoms. Hola, how do you interpret that? Well, we have to be so careful with language, the word veil
that you use that I think is very incorrect. The word is Homer in Arabic heimer is a scarf. So the
best word that is a scarf. And in fact, we know from Arabic terminology that this is talking about
the headscarf that Arab women used to wear, but they used to leave their chests exposed. So they're
being told that the headscarf you have on is a wonderful thing, but lower it down to cover your
chest as well. Because in only Arabian society, actually, women used to wear very little clothing
		

			men as well, that were generally quite poor. They just wore one outfit. So the scarf was an added
covering Fatima is that your interpretation? This verse that you just mentioned is from chapter 24.
The problem there is also another verse in chapter 33 of the Quran which describes an outer garment.
And both of these verses, if you think about commands in the Quran, in the front were commanded to
pray, but the exact specifics of how to pray or described similarly, in these verses, God commands
women to cover themselves without to garments when they're in the presence of men who want closely
related to them, but the exact parameters of that covering, you will find in the interpretation of
		

			the Quran, by the disciples of the Prophet Muhammad, this is the HUD eighth
		

			Yes, and even in the books in the very famous books of puranic extra Jesus, for example, in Kathy
are called to be you'll find that the cousin of
		

			The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him his name was even above he was also known as the ocean
because of his vast knowledge of Quranic interpretation. He describes these verses, and interprets
them as saying that God commanded women to cover their faces and bodies when they go out of their
homes. So this is his interpretation. Sure. How do you respond to that? Well, one issue that must be
clear, the word hijab actually does not refer to clothing items at all. As Hala mentioned earlier,
the word hijab means a curtain. And it's a curtain that was drawn or was let down between the wives
of the Prophet and the men of the community because of their specific status as mothers of the
		

			believers. Now, in the interpretation, over the centuries, this special status was extended as a
virtuous model for the rest of the believing women. Now, this is a very controversial issue, even
within the classical, exegetical works or commentaries on the Quran, whether this model should be
extended to the rest of Muslim woman or not. Hola, can I ask you to respond to that? Yeah, I would
absolutely agree with Shahrukh that what started off as a symbol of modesty for women. And something
completely separate, which was the hijab between the wives of the Prophet and the rest of the
community has been completely conflated together, and the sheer confusion in the Muslim community.
		

			But the other thing I want to say is that also there are so many opinions in the early Muslim
scholars who are writing opinions to do with how much of the face should be covered with their eyes
can be covered with the hands whether the wrist can be covered. I think, really, we're over
complicating the issue. And actually, only the verses are describing an outer garment that all
Muslim women should wear. Even the wife of the Prophet Mohammed Shah, herself. She described how
when the verses were revealed the women at that time they you know, tore up some of the other
garments in their houses, and they use them to wrap themselves around their bodies. She clearly
		

			describes how she herself and the other wives and other women as well, they would cover their faces
when men were coming close by, but the point about the being a separation between what was expected
of the family of the Prophet and other women the point that the point that Shahrukh was making in
that whole it seemed to be exactly the wives of the Prophet being actually designated as mothers of
the believers, not available after the prophets death to any of the men as wives, this specific
status, in fact, in one of the oldest Quranic commentaries, is associated with the hijab, which is
the total separation so that when they go out, they cover their bodies, they cover their faces. Now
		

			there's there are issues of agreement and issues of disagreement in the legacy of Islamic
interpretations. And one issue of agreement is that the Prophet pronounced that the parts of the
body that can be shown after a woman reaches puberty are the faith and the hands. There's no
disagreements surrounding that I would even disagree. Disagree continue, even with regard to ignore
best because I've read the text quite thoroughly in Arabic, if not best, has not pronounced any
words in terms of the vape he actually showed his companions how to wear the over garment, covering
parts of the face, but leaving other parts shown. So total coverage, complete separation between the
		

			face of the woman or the full body of the woman and the rest of the world is not sanctioned in any
of the texts. I would completely disagree with that because you know, anyone who studies the four
Islamic schools of jurisprudence, the humbling of have the sharper image actually the
		

			interpretation of hypnotized me at least let me say it makes it obligatory. Please let me finish.
The humbling must have the Shafi Hanafi and Maliki The one thing that they agree on, is that
covering the face and the rest of the body is a virtue. Now the thing that they disagree on Yes, is
whether it's an obligation or not. Some of them said yes, the face and the hands may be uncovered.
But others insisted that, yes, the face and the hands should also be covered. And that is part of
the Muslim woman's dress. So to say that they all agreed that uncovering the face and hands. That's
not
		

			that's not even in our best when he showed his companions how to wear the over garment, which is the
jilbab he showed parts of the face parts of his face. So his eye, his nose, and one of his cheeks
were could be seen by his companions. The point is, it's only the hanbali school that makes it
obligatory, to avert Jubilee under shopping, I don't want to complicate things for our listeners,
but different schools of Sharia should require if there is that degree of latitude and
interpretation, do you think that this particular issue has become so prominent so important in the
Muslim world, the clash between modernity and Islam was often our
		

			argued by different sides and women became symbolic of that either as being oppressed and hence the
inferiority of Muslim culture or being liberated in Western societies and hence the superiority of
modernity and, and Western society. So it's become a denial of colonialism and imperialism and a
denial or perhaps of Western superiority. Yes. And I think there was also there was a fear in Muslim
countries that had been colonial lized. And so women, not just free to walk around, which is quite
good, but free to wear very little clothing, the miniskirt etc. So the hijab in the dressing of
women became the core issue on which an ideological war was fought that by to show that you were
		

			close to Islam and tradition, you kept your women as covered as possible. What was the code? What
was the dress code in early Islamic societies? How did women dress then? Sure, most of the Muslim
world in the first few centuries did not practice the face rate. It was not imposed, except in urban
centers, where a certain Islamic miliar ruled, however, Muslim converts in Spain and Egypt continued
even until the 18th century, the rural Muslim woman in Egypt or Syria did not wear a face covering
moved freely around in the village, which was different from the Muslim woman in the city centre.
Fatima, just respond to that quickly, please. Well, how can that be when the four schools of Islamic
		

			jurisprudence, which was established in the early, you know, century of Islam, they talked about the
covering of the face? How can it be when the wives of the Prophet themselves, and also some of the
other disciples described how they used to cover their faces? So to say that, you know, covering the
face is something that came later is completely false, especially you will find it not my you know,
he didn't say that it came later. And only in urban areas, what she's saying is in urban areas, it
was important. And in rural areas, it wasn't any still true today, you go to any Muslim country, go
to rural areas, especially where people will come farms, you will not see women wearing the niqab
		

			because it's completely impractical. They weren't even aware that they would wear the normal
clothes, you're going to big urban cities, you will see women wearing the jilbab, the niqab and all
the rest of it, because the lifestyles are different. That's the point she's making. But let me
remind you that you're listening to be unbelief. And today we're discussing the Islamic veil. The
number of women converting to Islam and the West is increasing, and many of them choose to wear the
veil. Why is it a means of asserting their Islamic identity? Are they submitting to the authority of
their husbands? Are they creating barriers between themselves and non Muslims? And with me are
		

			Fatima barkatullah who often covers her face and hair in public? Hola Hassan who wears a headscarf
and Shahrukh Najib who also covers her hair, but believes that that is a matter of choice. Why would
a young woman accustomed to Western dress choose to completely cover herself from head to foot
Khadija was brought up in a family which sad, fairly likely to religion, but after she'd gone on the
Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, she began to wear the headscarf before adopting the full niqab or face
covering, I asked her to tell me what provoked the change. When I was wearing a hijab, I felt that
my relationship with my Creator had to be stronger. And, you know, there was that power of mailing
		

			as well, as you know, being modest. So putting the veil on was just a part of improving my faith. I
understand you had to move your job, you did work in retail for a while and you moved out of that?
Yes, that's right. I mean, I think retail in my role would not have been suited in that field of
work. Obviously, the veil is not something that is accepted very easily, let alone the veil. I mean,
the hijab is not very easily accepted in workforces. And the veil is obviously the next stage, what
I went on to do is more community development work. And that allowed me to keep my veil on and still
be in employment. So get the work done. And I find that a lot of times, I'm very much respected as
		

			well, especially from the male side, you know, I've always found that a lot of men give me a lot of
respect, and are very cautious and do try to make a little effort. Do you think that wearing the
veil creates a barrier between you and non Muslims? No, not really. I don't think it does at all.
And I go to a school where my children are a minority, and I don't have any barriers. I communicate
quite well with people. If they feel they are barriers, it's because people are not communicating
back. You know, they don't like to see anything different. But overall, I don't see a problem. I
live in a community where it's not a high percentage of Muslims. I live in a street where I'm the
		

			only Muslim family and I have neighbors around me who are great and I communicate with them. Just
children play with my children. They go in each other's houses, do you feel that you have to make an
extra effort to communicate with your non Muslim neighbors because of what's around in the media
that portrays a veiled woman to be an extremist or you know, either, you know, certain sort of
		

			You was that used around people who are Muslim who are veiled. I do naturally tend to make an extra
effort, I will send a gift to my neighbors on the you know, if it's their festival, or if it's my
festival. And I think once people start speaking to you under the veil, you know, then the veil
doesn't mean anything. Have you had any negative personal experiences living in the city? Well, I
tend to walk through a society where I ignore any sort of facial remarks, or any sort of tattooing
going on under the breath of anyone I've passed. After a while you just become immune to it. But I
was once in a shop and a lady walked in. And suddenly she just came up to me and said, Go back from
		

			where you came from. And I was taken back a bit. And I did sort of retaliate and say to her, you
know, what do you really mean by that? You know, do you have any form of understanding of what
you're saying, you know, and she just was not willing to listen, she was just soft, she just, you
could tell something was urging inside her. And she just wanted to get it out and then leave the
shop? Does your husband approve of you wearing the full face though? He's left the choice to me.
It's my way of living. And he lives his way and we don't sort of push any values or anything on each
other. You seem to have discussed it? No, because I failed before he married me. So he knew who I
		

			was before he married me. That was Khadija. And she said that her husband had nothing whatsoever to
do with her decision to wear the full veil. And there is a stereotype that says this is a form of
male dominance. Hola, Do you know anybody, anybody who was made to wear the veil by their husband?
No, I've never actually come across anyone who's been forced to wear the niqab can just use the word
nipah. Because that's what we're talking about the face veil. But I think you know, when women say
that we're doing it of our own choice, and the other men in our family, their husbands or fathers
have got nothing to do with it. That's absolutely true. But in a direct, indirect way, it is the men
		

			but it is male preachers who are telling the community that it is compulsory, and if the women don't
wear it, there's going to be terrible punishment on them. And I really feel that community needs to
rethink the issue of Nepal. Yes, I totally agree with her. On that point. Perhaps there isn't direct
oppression or direct force applied here in order to make women wear the niqab or the face veil.
However, there's a particular interpretation of Islam, which I would call a very conservative
interpretation of Islam, that is being pushed by men demands not only in Britain, but abroad in the
Middle East and the Arab world, which puts forward the new camp, not only as virtuous, but sometimes
		

			as obligatory. And the arguments are not textual. I've heard several sutra, several legal rulings,
which say this is an age of temptation. Being in Britain makes it even more of a difficult time
because it's a country of non Islamic standards, that women at this time need to apply the highest
standards of virtue. So the the discourse that the men or the main scholars are producing, in a way,
bullies, believing and pious women into using the niqab department, I'd say I find that so
patronizing Muslim women were quite capable of researching the sources ourselves. And we're quite
capable of coming to conclusions about our relationship with God ourselves. And for somebody to come
		

			and say to us, you know, that we've been brainwashed or been told by other men to do this, or to do
that. I think that's, it's completely patronizing. What you've come back to a matter of choice,
isn't it also a matter of human rights? Sure, I know, strike me sometimes as quite bizarre when men
and women very often in this country seem to walk about half naked and they have their right to do
so seems to be accepted. But when a woman decides that she wants to cover her face, it becomes a
matter of offense. I totally support a woman to cover her face. If it's a choice. If this is the
conclusion, she comes to after reading the text, reading the interpretations. This is our own
		

			understanding of our duty. So with a lot of it, God, I would totally support her right to do so.
Hola. I think the obsession that I find really sad with the niqab is that there's so much more in
the verses. If we look at the first verse that you quoted, and you're at the beginning, it's talking
about modesty is talk about lowering the gaze is about not exploiting sexual passions,
unnecessarily. And we are living in an age today where everybody's obsessed with this piece of cloth
on the face. And we have got Muslim women who are walking around who are committing adultery, who
are smoking, we're doing all sorts but they've got an ePub on their face. And that makes it okay. I
		

			personally know someone who committed adultery and Jewish war in a pub. So you know those issues of
decency, modesty and citizenship, the we have a responsibility to the society in which we live. And
if the knob is hindering integration, and I absolutely agree that it is, then we need to revisit
that discussion. I can think of several reasons for why wearing the face veil might inhibit or the
niqab might inhibit a woman for instance, her career
		

			aggression, Khadija admitted for instance, that there were some difficulties in retail, Fatima, I
wouldn't choose to be a fireman maybe or a policeman or certain professions that you know, wouldn't
be conducive to the way I dress.
		

			Well, you usually find the women who choose to wear the face Well, they're very intelligent about
the types of work that they take, and they and they take, but that that will that will restrict
their their career choices, Ernie, you know, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, okay, that was
a difficult, difficult thing for him to do. Similarly, there may be some commands of God that women
adopt, and they want to follow, and there will be a level of sacrifice, if they're willing to make
the sacrifice. Who are we to question them? Hold on a few days ago, I was watching a television
program. But I got great insight into it. Because by watching, as it happens, a man's face, I was
		

			able to make an informed decision about whether or not I thought he was lying or not. I was pretty
convinced he was. And there are circumstances in which the only way you can make that sort of
informed choice is by looking into somebody's eyes and seeing their body language and making that
determination. If you translate that into the job sphere, there are occasions when if somebody comes
for a job interview, if you can't look into their eyes, you can't determine what sort of person they
are. I agree, I think the anonymity that women who wear the niqab desire can be very, very difficult
to achieve if they wish to live followers, unresponsive lies, I had an issue the other day in the
		

			mosque, it was where a woman came into the mosque wearing a full nabob Her face was covered asked
her to remove it because we've had security issues we've had thefts from from the mosque. And we
need to be able to see a tape afterwards and say, okay, we know identify who stole so I asked her to
remove an ARB and I ended up having a you know, a huge screaming match with her because she refused.
She said that was her obligation to God and there was nothing I was going to do about it. Well,
that's the problem isn't. And we have to start living in society with other people, not just saying
God, God, God, and completely ignoring our obligations to other human beings around us, of course,
		

			their obligations to society. And that's not something that, you know, Islam is blind to at all the
women that I know who were the face? Well, if there was a genuine need for them to uncover their
faces, for example, airport security in banks, well, guess what, in different settings? Well, as you
know, you're using anecdotal evidence. You're using anecdotal evidence to label a whole group of
women. And I think that's a very unfair, that's very unfair, because that myself and the vast
majority of women, you know, we go through airport security, how do you think we do that we uncover
our faces? Furthermore, how would you have responded in that situation? That caller told us about
		

			what you uncovered your face? Absolutely. If there was a genuine security problem, you know, what
I'm trying to say is that the majority of women are very sensible, you know, obviously, they prefer
if there was a female member of staff or females around when they uncovered their faces. But I think
the problem is that sometimes we we make it into a bigger problem than it really is what you just
said that it'd be better if there was a female member of staff why my husband's a doctor, he had a
case where somebody was incredibly ill and she said, I will only see a female doctor, and he was the
only doctor on the doctor, then of course, you should see that
		

			she should have seen the first doctor who came along because the rest of the doctors are not sitting
there on their backsides waiting for women to walk in
		

			a genuine need, of course, and Islam doesn't require them to
		

			bully society, saying I read in a pub, therefore you will bend over backwards to accommodate
		

			that raises an even bigger issue. Perhaps the big issue today is how you integrate, not assimilate,
but integrate Muslim people into a wider British society. And I'm wondering, Shahrukh, does this
whole issue of the niqab form a barrier to understanding between indigenous British people and, and
Muslim people? The Sharia is actually divided into two almost equal parts. One is about obligations
toward God and one is about the obligations toward the community or other people with the
obligations to the community. There are serious outcomes and there are responsibilities if you don't
fulfill any of these. I believe that the niqab in Britain and elsewhere, even in the Muslim world is
		

			causing a lot of strife and causing an undermining the social harmony even in Muslim countries like
Egypt where the majority of Muslims niqab, you will women are women wearing the niqab are imposing
the certain authority on other women.
		

			What is what is undeniable? Leave aside Egypt. What is undeniable is it has come a major issue in
countries like France, which has banned the niqab in public places since last April. It's a common
issue in Belgium and Italy. it's indicative of the fact that it is causing concern right across
Europe. niqab is not our problem. It's the problem of the people who are seeing it as a problem.
		

			Okay, this what happened in France is about secular aggressive secularism. Okay? The problem is that
at the moment, Muslims are feeling under a lot of pressure to make their religion seem more
palatable to the west. So when it comes to certain rulings that they know that people in the west or
they think that people in the West won't be able to, you know, stomach, they'll water it down,
they'll deny it even Okay, when in fact, these things are practices that have been within Muslim
communities for centuries. I'd like to get your reaction to this whole business of of what the niqab
is doing to the process of integration in Britain exam, I was fascinated Khadija seemed to suggest
		

			that there was no barrier to her communication with non Muslim people. But it did seem to me that
she had to make an extra effort to overcome that barrier. She went out of her way to speak to people
to be friendly to be positive. Well, I actually was in a pub for five years. And the reason I
stopped wearing it was because I realized that I was not able to engage with the society around me.
I was seen as foreign. I wanted to be able to make eye contact with people and to smile at them and
have them smile back at me. And I can do that now. But I couldn't do that while I was wearing the
niqab. And I realized that was a barrier that was not a necessary barrier. If it was compulsory, I
		

			would have stayed with it. And I reiterate that it was the male scholars who were preaching
thunderously that unless I would the nakaba would burn in *. And that's why I worried and I
realized that no, Islam has got so much to say on so many issues, and what Muslims have done, have
become very, very narrow in their interpretation, and in what they are looking at. And this is the
way Muslims are going in Europe right now. We're minarets. halaal meat is going to be banned soon
the headscarf has already been banned. mclubbe Muslims are under target in Europe and Muslims need
to wake up and say that there is something wrong What can we do? I want to ask each one of you a
		

			final question as we draw this program to close in 30 years time what model for the wearing of the
veil do you think will prevail among the Muslim women of Britain? Sure. I believe, as I've seen it
elsewhere that the phenomenon of wearing the face veil is going to relax that we'll see moderate
dress across the generations across ethnicities. Fatima. I think we'll see what we see today
actually different women wearing different modes of Islamic dress, some uncovering their faces and
covering their faces, I think will there'll be a huge variety. Hola. I think I will agree with both.
But I think that a lot more young Muslim women will start to dress in a way that marries the British
		

			culture with Islamic culture. So a lot more jeans with headscarf. Well, that's all we have time for
a contentious subject to kick off the new series and beyond belief my thanks to Fatima barkatullah
hola Hassan and Shahrukh naggy, I'll be back the same time next week when I hope you'll join me