Hangout 15 – Convert Problems – Yahya Abu Sumayyah

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			Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Welcome to another episode of hangout with your host by the bone
of Mohammed, where basically we just hang out. And we get a chance to sit and learn from different
teachers and preachers from all around the world and talk about issues that are relevant to us
Muslims here in the West. So On this episode, we have with us a very special guest. He came all the
way from Edmonton to be with us here in Toronto, for the Sakina community center conference this
weekend, we have none other than shift. Yeah. balsamea. So now welcome, Chef.
		

			How's everything? Good to see you. I'm delighted, zelicah for joining us. It's a great honor to have
you here. We've met a couple times before in the past hamdullah had a chance to work together on a
couple different conferences and stuff. But it's great to have you in this setting. We're basically
we're just hanging out.
		

			So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, you know, the Convert culture that we have not just
in Canada, but I guess in the West in general in Europe, in the US, and you know, UK and so on and
so forth. Hamdulillah, you came into Islam, many years ago, probably more years, and I've been
practicing or been alive, right? But yet people would still think of you kind of as a convert.
Right? Can you tell us a little bit about your story? I don't want to get too cliche and tell you
how did you come into Islam. But tell us a little about your story and how you ended up finding
about Islam hamdu Lillah, WA salatu wa salam, ala rasulillah
		

			became Muslim around 1991 1990. And my background, I was raised Roman Catholic.
		

			Basically, I started, I used to read a lot. So I was reading everything from religion from politics,
comparative religions. And
		

			one day, I remember going to the library, the Public Library, and I saw a copy of the translation of
the Quran. So I just happened to take it. And I started to look at it, and it had the Arabic writing
on the side, and the English across from it. And I was curious, so I took it home. And I started to
read it. And
		

			basically, I thought, I thought that this is what I've already believed. This is already a lot of it
is what I already was believing.
		

			And I remember concerning myself a little short, while after that, calling myself Muslim.
		

			I had to reading the translation after reading the translation. I had no friends that were Arabs or
Muslims.
		

			I didn't even know there was a Islamic Center in my city,
		

			Edmonton. And I started calling myself Muslim and it continued that way for about a year. And start
with this is like pre 911 pre you know, mass propaganda of Islam like this is literally a public
library in Edmonton. miskeen one was half sitting there, no internet, no internet, no access to
nothing. But yet still, like come to the last minute Allah gave you this opportunity to find out
about Islam. So did How long did it take you before you actually, you know, met other Muslim and
then I met someone and they told me Do you go to the mosque? Or do you go to the masjid at the such
and such? And I said, No, none of that. And so she
		

			she saw me in a bookstore, reading a book about Islam, she asked me are you Muslim? And I said yes.
And then she said, You know about the this Islamic Center and so on. And she told me where to go,
who to see, give me some names. And I went there. And that was basically the beginning of my
learning and
		

			entering into Islam officially, as they would say, at that point that you took your Shahada, I took
my Shahada, and they taught me how to pray and I'm delighted. And then eventually you ended up going
off and studying Islam, like kind of at a more, you know, advanced level, what what how did that
opportunity come about? I had a thirst for knowledge, like I used to love to read. We didn't have
this distraction of the internet or right YouTube. So it was in the books and it was information
like you would get from an individual or so somebody told me that why don't you go study in the
Islamic University of Medina. And it was just like, you know, I heard the word university but I
		

			didn't know anything about Medina. What was Medina where was Medina? And said, Oh, I guess like,
sure. They told me I will bring you this application. You fill it out. I filled it out. And I think
three years passed until I finally got accepted. Wow, I even forgot about it. I got married even
		

			hungry. So I mean, at that point now haven't really you've had a little bit of taste of Islam.
You've had a you know, a little bit of a community that you can kind of base yourself around. What
was the reaction of your family? What was your reaction of the people who knew you before Islam now
that you became a full fledged Muslim? In the beginning, I think they thought it was just another
fad. Like, you know,
		

			I grew up on in the breakdancing days. rap music, right
		

			There was, there was a lot of fads going on. And you know, people would try to try this, try that
out. And so I think my parents at first, they thought, you know, he's going through something now
you know, something different, he's trying something else.
		

			It'll go away or whatever. So they left me alone, like, nobody bothered, you know, I used to pray in
my room by myself, or there was nothing really to do even I used to abstain from pork, my mum used
to, like, you know, not cook it or even bring it in the house, or, and so on. So nobody had a
problem.
		

			It's just when it came to maybe talking sometimes about about the dean, you know, about what's, what
should be done and what's allowed what's not allowable, there was kind of friction there. Right?
They didn't want to accept it, or they didn't want to, you know, they didn't want to become Muslim.
Right. So it kind of was frustrating at first. So since then, has any of your family come within
Islam until now? No, no guide them?
		

			So I mean, what is that? Like? I mean, I think you know, a lot of people who make it easy, yeah,
might be born Muslim, they might not understand that, that feeling, what is that? Like? No, there's
definitely a difference then, like, you know, some people, some of their family members are not
practicing, as they say, although I don't like that word. But they're not really, you know,
practicing the religion. It's much different when you have parents, or you have grandparents or you
have relatives, brothers and sisters, you know, that you've grown up with all your life, you've
known all your life, you love them, it's natural, you know, and they're just not becoming Muslim.
		

			And when you know that, you know, for instance,
		

			the punishment or what Allah subhanaw taala says about those that disbelieve in about those that you
know, and so on, it's not easy. But all we can do is we have to remember, like the life of the
Prophet Muhammad SAW Selim first, right, his uncle, his grandfather, you know, his uncle didn't
accept Islam, on his deathbed, and he died upon that. Right. And Allah says that you do not guide
whom you who you wish to be guided, but Allah guides whom, whomever he pleases. And I think that's
so powerful, because a lot of people think like, just because your family or your brother or sister
has a Muslim name, that all of a sudden Mashallah they reserve their spot. and gentlemen, as we
		

			know, the prophet, I sent him he taught us that, you know, that Allah subhanaw taala, will allow us
into gender based on his mercy on his Rama.
		

			So, I think it's a good reminder for people even who have Muslim families that, you know, even if we
try and guide them or give them advice, you know, obviously, he dies from Hamas panel to Allah. But
in this case, I think it's something that I've studied a little bit of, because I know like a lot of
brothers and sisters, you know, sometimes they don't feel as connected to the Muslim community, and
then they go home and they don't have Muslim family. So they are almost like double black sheep.
		

			Can you disgust that feeling of Well, those are the individuals that me I was never followed up
like, Shangri La, by the favor of Allah alone, by a loss favor upon me.
		

			Like, I did it on my own, I have to do it on my own. And also the desire was there. And by the
guidance of Allah only by the guidance of Allah, like I stuck with it. Unfortunately, what I've seen
in the last years, like being a Muslim, is that a lot of the Muslim communities are not following
up. You know, they're happy. And it's a it's a grand occasion, when somebody wants to take Shahada,
he wants to come to the masjid and he wants to become a Muslim, or she wants to become a Muslim. And
everybody's there, and everybody gathers around, and they get the phones, you know, and they're
videotaping and excited. And then the person takes Shahada, and everybody's like, you know,
		

			cheering. But then after that, you know, the day after, maybe still somebody will kind of check on
them or bring them to the masjid. But as weeks pass, and as the months pass, and that person is no
longer to be seen, they know. And we, I worry, like, did they leave Islam? Did they change their
mind that they forget, this is what actually, all of us have to be aware of, and we are going to be
accountable for I actually, just Friday, this last week here, we had a sister coming to Islam here
at the center. And I know that even myself, you know, I've seen a lot of people come into slime just
sporadically, you know, somebody says, Hey, I have a friend, they want the Shahada. But I think now
		

			with a little bit of experience, people in the community are realizing like, Look, we got to make
sure they're right, you know, we got to make sure they know what's up. Because there's way too many
people who are coming into Islam and then leaving, you know, within the first like, two, three
weeks. Any advice for what the community can do to better improve this follow up down as you were
talking about? Well, even what's worse than that is not only leaving, but I guess there's nothing
worse than leaving or
		

			reverting back, but like, getting also heretical beliefs or, you know, fundamentalist beliefs, not
fundamental, radical beliefs. And you know, it's It has nothing to do with Islam. And they, you
know, they listen to somebody or they saw something on the internet, or this is a big problem. Also,
what do you think there's all these like, now they have this whole rant about these convert guys who
are coming into Islam, and they're becoming like, some crazy terrorists and this type of like, I
mean, now I've heard there's been statements actually in the west where the one guy was coming out
saying how
		

			You know, we shouldn't be giving people shadows or we shouldn't be, we should be very skeptical, the
people who want to come into Islam, what are your thoughts around that? Well, the bottom line is
that, you know, we can't guide anybody the guidance comes from Allah. The thing is that
		

			we are commanded by Allah subhanaw taala. To do our right and do our calling others to Allah is not
only on on non Muslims, and you get them to come to Islam. But also like, you know, it may be that
Muslims that have gone straight Muslims that don't know, Muslims have no knowledge or somebody has
is ignorant, you need to call those people also. So setting up our programs, setting up programs in
the Islamic centers for these converts for these individuals who can't like you know, don't have the
knowledge they don't know yet. This is what we should be doing. What are some of the
		

			you know, okay, I'll give you an example. Sorry, I was thinking of something. But I'll give you
another example. I think one of the challenges that I see specifically when it comes to reverts What
do you prefer the term reverts or converts? I don't know the revert is new. I think we'll revert it
was considered myself a convert convert. I think when they say revert it's a person based on the
Hadeeth that everyone's born upon the back. Yeah. So you're going back into the future? So I don't
know.
		

			Yeah, I think the same as well. But I think with a lot of people, they think when when they think
about reverts, they think about like for instance the issue like marriage, okay, marriage for born
Muslim is already a fitna, you know, you have to marry from this Camila you have this person has to
be this tall, or this light, or this educational background.
		

			Getting married, you know, to convert or for a convert to get married also has its own challenges
and issues, anything that you've experienced like that.
		

			I think most of the the widespread problems for converts is for the sisters for the girls is like,
maybe if they marry a person who's maybe from an Arabic background, or from African background or
Asian background,
		

			a lot of times the man is expecting her to adapt to his culture. And this is what I've seen. And
this is where the problems start. She doesn't know anything about that. She doesn't know how to cook
the food. Right? And the problem started after, in the beginning, there may not be those problems,
you know, the guy saying Yeah, yeah, like, you know, he's gonna have this new Muslim, and he's
gonna, you know, teach her, he's gonna mold her how he wants. But then when it comes to the culture
after, you know, she's maybe not so quickly to respond, right? The guys being converts
		

			the same thing, like the guys being commerce, they don't really know anything yet. So maybe it's
depending also on the sister, she might have to teach him. Right, right. So one thing I noticed,
actually, is that you've seen some sisters who, for instance, you know, they come into slap
hamdulillah. And now they want to get married, but like, they don't have a welding, they don't have
anyone who's you know, particularly looking after them. So some brothers will actually prey on
sisters like this, you know, I've seen brother specifically who say, I want to marry a convert, and
you say, like, Why, what difference does it make and say, you know, because that way, I don't have
		

			to do with the families. And that way I don't have to, and it's like, an easy way out for them. You
know, it's like, very vulnerable person. Have you seen or dealt with issues like that where reverse
sisters are getting abused. In this sense, I've dealt with this on a regular basis. And this idea
of, I'm one of those that is actually harsh against that.
		

			One of those ideas that, you know, she doesn't need a welly or I'll be her wellI or I'll find you
early, my friend will be there. Or let's go to this city. You know, let's go see this shit. I know
this Imam, he'll be your family. This is not allowed. You know, and I've asked some of the scholars,
right, and the Hadith that you know, we that everybody should know. And I know they know it is that
there is no marriage or any woman who marries without the permission of her family that her
marriages is void or false or marriages bothered her marriage has bothered. So these brothers like I
don't know, like
		

			these the sisters, may Allah protect them that have no welly? Absolutely no weli like, you know,
maybe there are new in Islam and their family has not become Muslim. They have no value, they need
to go to the Islamic center. And the valley would be the Imam of the masjid or of the center who was
well known and trustworthy, and he would be there. But what about these like, we'll call them drive
thru rallies, you know, like somebody who just, you know, this guy and he'll, you know, he'll step
in, but sometimes the sisters don't even take that guy's advice. You know, the man might step
forward and say, Look, sister, this is not a good fit for you. This brother is not good. But they'll
		

			say, look, I like him. I want to get married to him. So you know, if you don't want to do it, I'll
find somebody else. What's the responsibility of the well he at that point? Well, I don't know how
much you can do. Like especially. I'm not sure like
		

			when you you can't lead a horse to what is it you you can lead a horse to water but you can't make
them drink? Yeah, exactly. I don't know.
		

			Yeah, I mean, maybe I put you in a Tough Coat because I don't know either To be honest, but I think
that you know, even for the sisters out there, you know who have gone through situations like that.
It's always good to make sure you have somebody that you know, you trust and you stick with them,
right? Because I've seen that too often that you know, sisters, particularly
		

			Reverse sisters, we'll find a William if he if he doesn't agree with what she wants, then she'll
just jump to the next one. But I don't even know how like, when you say, she'll find the welly,
like, Where does she get the permission to find her own welly? I don't know, either. I don't know.
Maybe I'm on Google, Facebook, Facebook? I don't know. Yeah, I think that a lot of people kind of
get confused with the whole family situation. And it's really, a lot of times it's either like a
friend's father, you know, somebody who you know, like your close sister and her dad can step in, or
somebody else in the community that you might know, an uncle or something like that can step in. But
		

			I always wonder like, how much justice we're doing to the sisters? Because I know, for instance,
like, if it was my sister, or my daughter, or my, you know, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't throw
them to have these guys on the street, you know, I'm saying. So I think it's something to definitely
keep track of.
		

			What do you think about being? Now this is a bit of an awkward question. So I hope you'll bear with
me in sha Allah, what do you think about being a white convert in a community that is very, like,
how's a very nice way of saying that, like, very obsessed with white culture, you know, like, when a
white person comes into a slum? It's almost like, Oh, he's an angel. I think he's an angel. Right?
They think this brother is like, a lot. Like, we're finally we've proven ourselves, right? You got
inspiration? Exactly. Well, that's a misconception. It's, it's, it's not a lot of times what I found
like, unfortunately, you know, sometimes How do you know that the guy is not becoming Muslim to
		

			marry somebody? Right? And it's not always what we see. We can only judge what's what's the ball
here, the apparent, but we also have to, you have to be careful with anybody, right? So this, this
idea, I'm not with it. So no, I mean, like, for instance, when when white girls sometimes like if a
white sister takes Shahada, like you see brothers, Mashallah the machine, it's like, it became an
aid for them, you know, like, they get all excited, and they get like, oh, man, we got a white girl,
you know, I'm saying, but like, the producers laughing. But I think that, like, that, obviously
carries its own stigma, right? Because then these sisters are, you know, being chased for the wrong
		

			reasons. Yep. There's the wrong reasons. And you also don't know what you might be getting into.
Right? It doesn't make them, you know, also rightly guided all of a sudden, or just because the
title convert or no, no, I don't know. Yeah. Anyways, I really, really, you know, I'm hopeful that
the community here in the West can and do a lot more to help support the new Muslims and the
reverse, and brothers and sisters who are coming into Islam. Any advice? You think, as an overall
perspective, you know, what are some tips or pointers, we as communities can implement to help
better accommodate the new Muslims coming into Assam,
		

			the communities themselves, like I said, the programs or, you know, maybe if you have to pay someone
or make that his job, or make a group of people that their job, you know, that they take care of the
converts that come to Islam, whether male or female, have somebody for both, right? But just to kind
of, you know, set up a program maybe once a week, you know, lecture for converts or, you know, a
general lecture for converts, I actually, I had that when I became Muslim. There was a gentleman,
may Allah have mercy upon him that he was teaching the converts only, every once a week, we had the
program downstairs in the masjid. And he would give us a lesson for the conference. So I think
		

			that's the least that's the minimum that should be done. What types of lessons like give me an
example about about belief about loss loss?
		

			Anything from the religion? You know about prayer and stuff like that? Yeah.
		

			Do you find that just just to give them a pamphlet and then say, okay, you know, like, Call me if
you need anything or No, I don't think it's enough anymore. Do you feel as though being a revert
coming from this country? You know, having an experience here? This equips you with a lot more.
		

			I would say, credibility when giving Dawa even to the non Muslims of this country. Do you find as
though, you know, there are certain advantages as well that you might possess it, for instance,
someone from overseas with an accent maybe doesn't have? Yeah, I think it is an advantage,
unfortunately, like, it's a reality. Right? You know, I speak the language I was born here, I
understand the culture here, as in, you know, I understand how the people, what kind of fazes them,
and you know, what to say what not to say how to say it, you know? So, in that area, yeah, like, I
have a benefit, I have a benefit over, let's say, somebody who's an immigrant or right, somebody may
		

			have more knowledge than me. But like I said, the background here, and this being my culture, and so
on. So that's, that's probably the the most advantage that I have. Just to just to go back to what I
think before. Whenever people hear that, you know, let's say you talk to them about Islam, non
Muslims. You know, the first thing when I became Muslim, I accepted Islam, the first thing they say,
is, Oh, you got you became Muslim to get married? I said, No, no, no. That's the first thing. They
say, oh, is your wife this or is your wife and you say, yeah, and then they say, well, that's why
that's why you became Muslim.
		

			I want to get a little bit spice in your life. Yeah. But so is that a common occurrence that you
think
		

			Got married, I mean, get a moment happening become Muslim to get married. It was for a while. Okay,
years ago, I don't know about now.
		

			I think now I don't see that as much. I mean, maybe I'm just a little bit ignorant. I think a lot of
people, you know, for whatever reasons have been coming to Stanford for the right reasons. And we
definitely as a community need to do a lot more to support them and make sure that they stay in
Islam. I think that's a huge barrier. Right now we're facing I've personally given Shahada to
people. You know, I gave Shahada, for instance, to one Jamaican guy, and the next day, he brought a
Filipino friend with him. And he's very enthusiastic. And he's a one my friend to learn was I
thought I gave his French Shahada too, we talk about Islam. Maybe two, three days later, I got a
		

			call saying that this Filipino guy went home, told his family, the family flipped out. He's like,
I'm not Muslim anymore. He left Islam just like that in two, three days. And I was so heartbroken.
It was a reality check for me to say like, wow, you know, sometimes just giving that Shahada it's
such an Amana like you have to really make sure that they're right for it because at that point,
they may not even want to come back into Islam you know, they might be like in a situation where
they are anti you know, Islam kind of outright. So anyways, Zack locker for joining us on this
episode of hanging out and you know, just any benefits or points that people picked up inshallah
		

			hopefully, you know, my pleasure. Yeah, they'll definitely take that home with them. So definitely
make sure you guys stay tuned next time inshallah. We're gonna have another guest on this beautiful
show, where we hang out and discuss so many range of issues with different speakers and preachers.
Just like our shake. Yeah, boo. Samia does not care for joining a shaker bottle. inshallah we'll see
you all next time. Take care Zakat located in Kumamoto, la he obata catch. Oh
		

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