Abdurraheem Green – The Muslim Man, Responsibilities & Relevance Today A Peace of Cake Podcast
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The speakers emphasize the importance of finding authentic and versatile stories in workforce analysis, with men being emphasised as a crucial part of society. They stress the need for support and understanding around the motherhood, as well as flexibility in language use. The challenges of communicating about certain topics and diversity in workplace culture are also discussed.
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Well, slough. alikoum Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh. And welcome to our viewers, and those who are joining us for a another weekly edition. And before I name it as usual, I have to introduce him over there. And that is this is under him green. And that over there is a Bill Baker that not sure. I'm not sure I could call you that. But anyway, the boy over there the guy over there. I don't mind after enough it's taken from my age old brother masala. And this is
this is a piece is a piece of cake. Yeah. Although I'm not sure it is a piece of cake today. No, it's not. This is a topic.
I think that we felt needed to be discussed. And it's quite controversial extinction or evolution, the Muslim man responsibilities and relevant today.
After him, there's a lot to talk about around today and how we are viewing certain things and how we as Muslim men are viewed.
There's the patriarchal perspective and how that sits. Today, in the 21st century.
There's the obscuring of patriarchy with misogyny, there's a liberal drive that we that diminishes the role of the the traditional man in inverted commas is not just the Muslim traditional man, but the tradition of man, as we may have known it, so
I'm not going to say I don't want to come from a perspective where all let's be mon and be Wade, I think there's some interesting perspectives we really, really need to look at, and some changing of particular roles in society as we see it today. And is it all bad? Is it all doom and gloom? What is it that we're looking at? So I'm gonna hand over to you before jumping into a narration and authentic narration and looking at that, and then some other aspects of the deen and how they stand with us today. And when I say how they stand with us, not that we are doing this progressive thing of changing them, but how they're viewed and acted upon or neglected in today's world.
So like my perspective, I think, first of all, the world is diverse. And, you know,
there are so many different cultures, so many different variants. But one of the things that I do think that is happening in the West, specifically, is that I do think the whole
I think one of the realities the job market is I mean, it's generally bring it down to economics. I think the job market has changed massively. In the Western world, there's been a decline of heavy industry, there's been a decline of mining, there's been a decline of agriculture, like anything that takes like real severe physical labor is just you know, that it's almost non existent and that most of that stuff is done in you know, you could say in the third world or whatever you want to call it, right. So, I mean, this is like one realm where men clearly have you know, an advantage one of the the areas they clearly have an advantage is the area of physical strength. Now, we could you
know, we can have a discussion and argument about how men could be in some ways mentally more resilient in some ways they're not but I do think that one of the things the changing realities of the job market is that more and more jobs actually have become more and more suitable for things that
right you've just frozen unless again, Abdur Rahim I say again because it happened to before we started and I'm going to continue and take up where abdur-rahim is left off and while licking salaam Nama and those who have just joined us, and I think it's very pertinent what abdur-rahim is touching upon regarding the socio economic
structures and frameworks of society today so he's back with us and I'm just going to jump in because I lost you Is it me that keeps losing you guys or what's going on here? We lost you and I know before we've had Sandy you're saying that it was really weird because I like have I like to have full signal on my
I think my upload speeds can be atrocious sometimes I don't know. This is like the third time this has happened. Yeah, so what I'm saying bro is the job market has changed.
I think the nature of the nature of many jobs, they are very, very, you know, they're good for women, women tend to be very good communicators, they tend to be quite empathetic. And so a lot of the sort of the jobs that are available these days and the sort of way that industries are going
with, you know, like, apart from maybe some tech things, and science, where it's still male dominated, but a lot of it is human interaction. So there's this whole, obviously, in, you know, obviously, in the West, this started in this big shift, started in the First World War, and then became more pronounced in the Second World War, where women became like, major earners, they weren't just like earning a little bit of money, they became major earners of money, right.
And, you know, like, you're the father of daughters broke, right? I'm the father of daughters, I will say, 100%, that being the father of quite a few daughters has totally changed my perspective, it's totally changed my outlook. I don't want I don't want my daughters or expect my daughters just to be a housewife. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's beautiful, it's noble, and so on, and so forth. But you know, I've seen it, you've seen it, right.
And they've seen generations, and so many women these days have seen their mothers generations, they don't want that type of life. Right. Exactly.
Right. And so I think the thing is, bro, that the reality is that dynamic has changed, right? Yes. You know, you can see in a society where there's a real need for men and women to have very, very distinct roles, and I can totally understand I'm the biggest, you know, I'm I'm saying that like, in some some societies, this is essential. survival depends upon it. Right? Survival doesn't really depend on our, in our modern world, on on on those gender distinct gender roles. So distinct gender roles anymore, right? I don't mean, I don't think that that doesn't mean that there is still distinct general gender roles, right. But I think a rigid enforcement of some traditional ways of
looking at things that are not necessarily not necessarily Islamic. Remember, a lot of the things that are said, even our scholars of the past said, they still said those through their own cultural lens, lens, right? You have to understand that, right? So we know that from exam or not, I don't want to talk too much, bro. But, you know, just to give an example, you know, like, there was a time when if a person was seeing eating in public, you know, you know, that was a sign of a person's bad character. And they may not even accept that person as a witness in court. Because that's a sign of bad I mean, who would who would? Who could use that these days? Right? cultural lens, you
understand? So I mean, it Sam is very adaptable, bro. So I think it's a very interesting conversation, I think. No, exactly. And I think you've set the tone really, really well done. And it would be remiss for me to avoid repeating the sisters who've come in London, the rook, Octavia Malahat, a number of sisters and brothers who have greeted us a while they can't wait. Well, even Salaam Alaikum, salaam alaikum. I think context is very, very important
in what you're saying, and we will have the naysayers of the men and bring in
narrations that are authentic, and verses of the Quran and we are not diminishing and dismissing any of those. But as you said, there are the job market now is different from what it was before. And even when we look at the job market, and we look at the socio economics at the time of the Prophet salallahu Salam, and succeeding generations there. The women were very, very active in the jar Helia, before the advent of Islam, we have the famous accounts of Khadija read your loved one. And she was the employer of the Prophet salallahu Salam before revelation obviously came to him. They married, we know the narrations that she was a businesswoman. She wasn't the only business woman and
she stood out amongst everyone else. It was definitely an exception rather than the rule. I think generally it was it was an exception, but it wasn't it wasn't so isolated after the women formed aspects of the workforce. We even see in the battles of the Prophet salallahu Salam, we see the involvement of the women in those times there. So what we need to look at when we are considering gender roles as it were, and when we are considering the very pertinent points that you've mentioned, now, we do need to make sure that we are not diminishing and you're not doing that. And I'm not doing that the roles of women in history previously. We know that Islam that with the advent
of Islam, that the majority
If the people who were entering at that time were women, and that continues to be the case today because of their rights being protected because of what Islam affords the women, and this is not me being slogan listed. It's there. The evidence is there even today to see in that respect there. So now, we're talking about the women in this particular instance. And I do feel that men today us
some feel not mean you, you and I some feel threatened by this. And point to an imbalance in the workforce as it were, we do have women supporting their households. Yes, I have many daughters. And I know you said having daughters was an eye opener for you. Not for me, because the matriarch and the strong leaders and pinnacles of my family, were none other than my mother, I was raised with my mother, okay? My sister, my aunt's, okay, knowing them seeing how they were, okay. So when I came to Islam, when I grew as a young man, and my mother said to me, and my brother said, treat women as you would like to see your mother and your sister being treated, and that stuck with me as a non Muslim,
I'm not saying I've been perfect, but I stopped with me as a non Muslim. But the feeling of
being threatened the feeling of not being the man in society today or the man within the household, we need to look at that, and address that for brothers, men who do feel that and some bring context from the Dean, understandably so. And we do have to look at those and consider those. But within today's context, and I'm not going to diminish it, as you said, you made a very pertinent point again, yet another one, where we said that the scholars who were speaking about particular examples, were speaking from a prism or a lens that was peculiar or particular, to their society, their societal claims at that time. And what we saw when we came to the dean is many of us tried to
transpose those historical, contextual
examples. And those societal contextual examples into our own societies, we tried to transfer them without any adjustments without any
understanding and reapplying them I'm going to wait for him to join us. And one of the two scholars make a point point I was reading a hadith today, and now he's 40 beef and I thought I'd raised this and share it today. And it's from the Hadith number nine in and now always 40 Hadith, the happy what I forbidden you avoid as much and what I've ordered you do as much as you can that just paraphrasing the Hadith from the Prophet salallahu, salam, and to scholars elenberger and Mr. They make an a point, so far as it relates to the principle of necessity, okay, where they mentioned here, getting more of this world is not part of necessity in any way whatsoever, getting more of the amenities,
non necessities of this life and having an easier life is not part of necessity. For example, if a person has a small amount of capital, he is not allowed to deal in interest and make more business. If a person has a feasible small living space, he cannot invoke the law of necessity to make it permissible for him to get a large living quarter through any means whatsoever, then this is the point I want to come to that I've read in that I thought let me bring today, if a woman has a husband or guardian who is maintaining her necessity would not then allow her to go out and mix with men and be alone with men in order to have employment or a job. Now that last part stuck with me
abdur-rahim, okay?
Because it's talking about from the perspective of necessity. And again, it comes back to what you were saying, the lens that these two scholars who highlighted this must be speaking from.
It's more than likely a society that's very patriarchal. And yes, it's arguable that many societies today remain patriarchal. And so therefore, if a woman's been maintained, the family home has been maintained, then the woman needn't go out to work. But then what comes to me from that I remember speaking to a student of knowledge many, many years ago, from regarding that narration about the woman leaving her home, and it should be from the point of necessity, and it's an authentic narration. Again, there's a context to that this is what I understand. And I'm not trying to change Hadith or narrations and go against what other scholars have said. But I'm looking at context now
and I asked a student of knowledge, I said, but what is necessity in this instant because necessity means different things to different people. A sister, for example, who may be saying right, this hadith applies to me, but me
struggling with this narration, necessity for her may be engaged in meeting fraternizing with other sisters, family members out of the home, and it may well be a mental health issue. And looking at what we're just coming out of with regard to the pandemic, this is clear evidence of that not only for females, but for males as well. And he agreed with me yet necessity can mean different things to different people.
Cite in that example, so that this part here regarding not needing to work because being maintained by the husband is something some may say, well, we need to look at that context today. And that needs to be adjusted, depending on what I missed. Was that what's the actual narration? The hadith is I was reading from the Hadith, where the Prophet SAW sort of said, what I forbidden you avoid and what I've ordered you let me go back to the exact wording, what I've ordered you to do, to do as much as you can and Verily the people are destroyed because of the excessive questioning. And the two scholars are talking from what sorry was the Hadith about women are not allowed to leave? No,
no, this is what some scholars were talking about regarding the principle of necessity, rendering some acts lawful. So that's what they will. Whereas any narration or anything in Islam that says that a woman can't go outside her house exactly that exam remember there's the Hadith that the woman should only leave the home in case of necessity and I don't remember any Hadith saying that that what this what there is there is that there isn't a ratio? No Hadith, bro, there's no
advocating it don't get
anything else bro that contradicts well known and well established practices of the women in the time of the Prophet including we've got here you're here. I'm only saying what is here for the scholars are speaking about this here. So I'm saying I just want to give that context never heard a hadith in all my years ever, that the Hadith that says women are not allowed to leave government after you've got shot? Saudi it may be some Saudi Wahhabi invention, but it is no there's no Hadith, bro. Okay.
This way you might disagree. I refer to the Hadith.
I will
not it cannot be a Saudi, what have you and when you've got the case of say they've been Messiah? Yep. Okay, who married I think it was Abu hurray was daughter say demon was saved the tabby in and his daughter, her parent, one of her parents was sick. This is an APA, this is authentic. Her parents was sick, I think it was like the mother or the father was sick. And based on this narration, she didn't leave the home, right up until this is authentic, right up until the point of the Death of the Family. Okay, and it was at that point that she left to attended. And as this is saved him and was saved, you know, the great great Tabby in. So it's not a recent related narration
that's there. But what I'm saying after him we're not in disagreement here. I'm saying again, the context of even the scholars mentioned in this here is again, environmental, historic, and through the lens of whatever society that they're coming from, I'm agreeing with you. That's why I'm bringing this to the reason. So hold on a minute, when I read this, I'd say okay, this is a context that they bring in. But this context surely cannot extend carte blanche everywhere. And again, from the perspective got asked a student of knowledge many years ago, over 10 years ago, a graduate from Medina said, Well, I haven't not an issue with this, this understanding. But necessity means
different things to different people. And he confirmed That's right. And I bought the issue of mental health or I don't want to have a big argument about this. But this is very strange, because, you know, for women, it's not a necessity for women to go to the masjid. But the prophet said do not email servants of Allah from going to the masjid. I agree. I shall use to go and have meals with some people of the People of the Book and accept invitations that not that's not necessity, right? Women used to go about doing various things that were clearly in no way shape or form considered necessity. I think if you're considering recommend if you're talking about something that's
recommended or something that is you know, that there's the Hadith about the Prophet Sall Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, you know, your prayer in your house is better than your prayer in the mosque and your prayer and your small room in your house is better than the larger room in your house. So there is there's no doubt there's a recommendation there. Right and it's it's a piety. It's an extra form of piety for women to be more, you know, hidden, I suppose, but I it's totally new to me. But anyway, but yeah,
As I say, everything I know about the Syrah and whatever. Someone told me whatever, like, maybe she didn't go because of that hadith because she was pious, but saying a woman can't leave for necessity, not one thing.
We won't get stuck on this point. This is the text here. I'm reading this is hear from the scholars here that I've mentioned. So I'm saying that it is based on that. But I'm saying even that I'm saying not to doubt it, but So, what is the context coming back to what you're saying there bro, what the scholars are saying there is that this is different, right. So, what the, if you read it again, what you will see you will see is what they are saying is that there are certain things that are, you know, they are either doubtful, or they are haram. So for example, you know, there are working situations where you will be alone, you know, when you're working, it's inevitable or very
difficult not to be alone in a room with someone mixing with non Muharram those type of things that are you could say either macro or you know, like in some instances haram, but they will be allowed out of necessity. So like, for example, you know, that those situations out of necessity, you can you can do them. So what that's saying is the scholars are saying, but if the man is providing for you, then why would you put yourself in those situations that are either mcru or haram when you don't really need the money? Yeah, which is valid, right? That's what that's what he said, I agree with you anyway, bro. Listen, you have a prolong thing. But I mean, I guess you're making a bigger
point is this, you know, I'll tell you an interesting thing that was a sister, I was Wally for, right? And she actually had it in her marriage contract, that she her husband would have to let her go for a walk every day. Right? Mashallah. Yeah. And she put I think that, you know, and the reason was, is because she said, I know, I, I need that, for my sanity, I can't stay in the house all day, I need to go out, I need to walk, I need the fresh air. You know, being an English girl, she was, you know, used to, you know, being out and about, and she, she, that was the minimum that she felt she could cope with this. So I mean, like, you're right. So the, from that perspective, what is
necessity is really going to be different from, you know, person to person, family, to family, you know, these are really, really big questions. And, again, I think it's always very dangerous, as you know, both of us know, to take fatawa from one country. Yeah. And then apply those fatwas. You know, yeah, exactly. Yes. To people living in another land with a different reality. You know, it's, it's really can be really, really problematic, to be honest. So then it comes to the point then I'm doing and now as I said, after we've chewed over that, that area there, and I think we were in agreement from the outset.
With us as men now, what are our roles? How do we understand them in light of the changing landscape? Okay, because what you'll find is that, as I mentioned earlier, some men maybe we've we've done it, I hope we don't do it so much. Now, we'll want to exert authority in citing hadith is about the role of the man with with regards to them and they legitimate they are legitimate and they are authentic. However, should they be used as restrictively as they have been in curtailing or in constricting the contribution of the woman in society
and outside of the home Now some will say all the Hadith of the dive comes up abdur-rahim Green and up to hack are advocating and they've they're speaking like the like do youth and those who don't know what do you thought that the youth in narration is someone who's basically a pimp he pimps his wife he pimps his daughter. He doesn't mind them being out with makeup and in public and
another thing Yeah, let's let's because I read that whole thing that you know, the brother sent. Yeah. So first of all, what is actually a day with a day youth is someone who doesn't care who has * with his wife. That's what a day in essence, yes, yeah, that's what a day with is right? So a day youth is a man who has no shame about someone like he doesn't care who sleeps with his wife and has * with her. Now, that's a Dave. But of course, then you have different levels of that, right? So you can say like, so you can say, well, you know, someone who doesn't really care who looks at his wife, right? Is that true?
I put Dave but he's not a Dave in the actual real meaning of what Dave is, but is a variant of it. It's just Brian's what? A bit less shame. Right? So I think it's very, we have to be very, very careful to say, you know, someone who, you know, lets his, you know, daughter appear on social media is a day, you know, no.
direction it. Yeah. I mean, it's very, very, you know, this is the problem of like, stretching the interpretation of something like way beyond its actual meaning, which is, it's fine within a context to say, Look, you should have shame, you should be protective over your women, right? But I'm sure you and me, bro. Will some of that stuff, you will read it. And it's like, it's quite direct. It's but also it's not direct, bro. I'll be honest, I'll be direct. Yeah. It's like I'm saying, What are you talking about? That? This is this is so disconnected with the reality of my life. Right? Right. And most people, right, by the way, not just that, bro. The whole narrative of a man telling his
wife and his women what to do? Yeah.
ordering them telling them what to do. It's like, I don't even see my relationship with my wife and my daughters like, like, I tell them what to do. Right? And this is the whole question about what does it mean to be a man? Right, right? Unfortunately, this is feeding into this type of,
you know, this mindset, that being a man, right? It's like you do what I say? And this, you know, and I don't think that that's how a real man is, right? It's not about telling someone what to do. You need to provide guidance. Yes, you need to provide inspiration, you need to provide motivation, you need to because to be honest, bro these days, if the man is gonna say you do this, and you do that, she'll say, Yeah, whatever. Yeah, by right if she's probably paying more of the bills than he, if he has to do that, that reveals the weakness and insecurities of that man that let's let's be frank, when we're talking. It's just I don't see that working in our culture, bro. It's just it's
just a joke. No, no, I agree. What I'm saying
may work this is a message This is a message to brothers who are listening to this now because some will cut and we've seen it abdur-rahim You and I've seen it be no losses this in the Quran or Miguel akoa. Mona Lisa, the man has made the degree of of the woman Okay, what does that mean? That's what we what does that mean? Does it mean how they understood that you said about the day you for example, as well? How do you stretch that? How far do you actually stretch that we have to look at that. And we look at the Prophet salallahu Salam as the classic example. And you do not see in any shape or form the order in the demand in the restriction how Ayesha used to argue with the Prophet.
So somebody used to argue so much that the brevet Omar's wife and Omar's wife so much
would see him sitting outside.
He's been his wife. So I agree with abdur-rahim. And I think what we need to look at today, when we're talking about that aspect as well, I want to move in, just slightly go at a tangent, because today one thing that concerned me and if I'm wrong, I'm a dinosaur. I'm old school, you might say, but being chivalrous now, we're talking about not only from Islam, we're talking about being a gentleman. There's something that is frowned upon
opening the door, let allow saints
be impolite and let it go. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was told when I came back to UK a few years ago, when I was holding the door open for someone because they were coming through all the benefits a man as well, but they were coming through and they found it me when there was in a queue. Yeah. Now I'm telling you honestly, when I was in a queue, and I let two women go in front of me, I was talking to a friend and I sort of stepped back and forth. They were more rare. And I let them go. And they scowled at me. And I said, why? What did I do wrong? I was asking, they could see I've looked shocked. What is actually happening. My daughter's explained to me, my wife explained to me and even
brothers who were this and this is something that is frowned upon now because of this equality, if that's the right phrase, the equality and you doing that it's indicating that they are the fear of * and you're doing that shit, you're being chivalrous because you see them as a fear of * and weaker * and other oh my gosh, I've just been polite. I've just been a gentleman. This is what I know how to be. So there's that sort of tangent, that as men who want to be polite, we want to be like that with women who want to be gentleman I'm going to use that phrase. I don't know whatever phrase to use. There's even caution around that in some quarters today. Okay, and even I think
twice now, when I'm back in the UK Brixton. No it wasn't. No
no I was in this I was in the suburbs. This is the thing that shocked me. I was actually joking. I was joking about Brixton. MashAllah Brixton. That's a totally different kettle of fish.
But so I'm not saying that's for all women who you interact with, but now it's become a lot more obscure. So being a man,
a man in today's society, what does it mean? And how are we embracing that? And how are the younger generation embracing, I've seen discussions about going out taking a wife or a non Muslim to discuss it as well going out, you're gonna have a group of friends, non Muslims, and would you pay? Or would you let the woman pay? Or would you do 5050? How would you deal with it? And I've heard women say, oh, no, no, I'm not going to let him pay, because it's going to make me feel obliged towards him, and who does he think he isn't? And I was surprised by this, because up to really my grown up, and it's my way today that when I'm out with my daughter, my wife, a female member of family, or
whatever, from from that permissible realm,
there's no question that I'm gonna pay. It's just, I'm not saying that I'm being misogynist, or patriarchal Oh, if the woman pays, I have an issue with it know, if my wife is going to pay or my daughter's gonna pay and everything like that? Yeah. But it's not the default response from me. You know, I see it, I can understand, I can understand what some women are saying, right. From the point of view of, you know, like, I guess you have to understand that in a particular context of a pickup chat up culture, that's a not marriage culture. So when you are allowing a man to pay for you, right, there is an implication there, that there may be something else on offer as well. And like
girls may want to make the clear, is not on the tables, I'm not your tart or whatever stuff. Right? So there is that whole thing, it's the context of that culture, right? Where you can see that a girl may be like, really? No, no, no way. Am I gonna let anyone pay for me? Like, there'll be a time when she may let a man pay for her what? Right, but she's gonna make it very clear when there is, you know, I mean, underwater, which is fair enough, you know, right.
Yeah. But, um,
anything I want, I did want to mention and get your insight on, because this is something that,
you know, I think we need to go back to it. And I think that one of the things that one of the things that I do think is a bit scary, yeah. Is that it was a bit scary for me in this whole, you know, what's going on? Is that the role of the mother, right, and the role of a woman as a mother, and as someone who specifically is dedicating her life, to looking after her family and her kids, and that's what she does with her time. And that's what she does with her energy. And that's what she does with her life. And I think that there is a real problem with the diminishing of the importance of that role. Yeah, absolutely. And the diminishing of the enthusiasm and the commitment
to motherhood. Right. And I may seem to be singling out mothers, right. And yeah, there's lots of absent fathers. I don't agree, disagree with that. But I believe that this, I believe, is very, very dangerous, and it's dangerous for society. It's not dangerous for individual women, right? Not particularly, right. I mean, I look at my daughters and I sometimes think, you know, like, maybe it's better you don't get married than you marry some idiot, right? Who's gonna make your life * and treat you like a piece of rubbish, right?
You know, and, and it's sad. i It's so hard to find half decent men these days. Doing have an idea how to treat a woman is just scary. Yeah. But so I'm not I'm not trying to say, you know, you know what I'm trying to say, bro. What I'm trying to say is that if society doesn't have women who are mothers who are going to care for the kids and give birth to kids, and then care for them, then that is literally how society is going to collapse. And that's where having been, literally is your motherhood, not even the family role. Mother motherhood knew right. And this is where Abrahim that drive for individualism that has been taking place for decades now is decimating the family home.
Okay, I agree entirely with you on that and we
But what is important here, what you're saying is so key because you will have those who sign Okay? Motherhood, yes, they shouldn't be mothers, they should be able to go into the work the workforce as well and be able to balance the two. That's their choice of their home. It's their choice. And they should be supported. They should be supported in doing the two, or doing one choosing to do one. They shouldn't be supported in that. But yes, there needs to be more support and understanding around the sister, the non Muslim woman who says I want to be at home to raise and nurture my children. It is something that's becoming rare. It's something that's becoming.
It's becoming frowned upon. But then I say this abdur-rahim as well. Now,
the sister has two children. She's got more of the qualifications.
She is more amenable to the job market. Yeah. And her husband isn't, or he's been he's can't find work, or he's not as qualified. He has an accident, he cannot work anymore. Then stay at home fathers now. Yeah. Is this an issue that we've come to? Is this an issue? That's the one thing and before we jump into that what I've seen in
the Arab Muslim world,
the South Asian societies as well. There's a frowning upon qualified, educated women. And I'm amazed if I told you the stats in one of the countries I've lived in the amount of qualified masters, doctors, sisters, who cannot find a husband, and they did research on the research, right? Okay, I see them. Yeah, they did research. What I saw from the statistics was that the men who answered said they do not want educated women, they want an educated woman who is just there for them in the home, and that they see an educated woman intellectually as a threat. And that shocked me abdur-rahim Because yeah, well,
women, I think many of them are honest.
So for me, there's that issue. But coming back to the earlier point that I mentioned, so the man situation is such that he cannot find work, the woman is more qualified, the sisters more qualified, she goes out to work. And he ends up having to look after the children, I won't say ended up in a negative way. Is this something that is a thing that Muslims, and Muslim men in particular have an issue with, I just read the article, brilliant article today on Greta Thunberg, and her parents, and how the father ended up staying at home, putting his career on the back burner for the wife, who was an opera singer to go out and become who she wanted to be why he looked after the two children. And
that's why I'm raising this because within
an Islamic religious context, how do we as men,
look at that?
Bro, I said it before previously, I think Islam is incredibly flexible. I think that when you really honestly, when you actually start looking at the texts, when you look at what Allah said, what the Prophet said, you know, and, and you disengage a bit from a lot from culture, and I even mean, the culture that was prevalent, you know, and I don't say this to denigrate in any way, shape or form, you know, the scholars of the past, right, but even they lived in a particular culture or, you know, context, right, I think you'll find that Islam is incredibly flexible. I think that in terms of the actual restrictions and the actual
you know, I think there's a lot that gives you guidelines, that gives you suggestions where Allah is outlining for us, what is the best way that things should be and can be, but very rarely do you find it's restricting you right, to pursue alternative ways of living? Right. That I mean, there are a few exceptions to that, you know, but I mean, you know, I mean, although this is not our conversation, right?
I will, I won't go
I was gonna go down the hole. I was gonna have a whole discussion about * and stuff, but forget that. But we need Helios for that one. Yeah.
To talk about that, definitely. I think you know, like you know, the everything you know that you know, the you know, the adage, bro, everything from the dunya is halal. That's right, except what is specifically been mentioned as haram. Right. So you can say this is maybe not this, this is maybe discouraged or maybe this is not the best way but to say It's haram to say you can't do it. Right. It's and this is it. Sam is
incredibly flexible. And this is why Islam thrives in so many different cultures, so many different contexts. You know, you probably know better than me, but you know, for example, Jamaicans I was really shocked to find out when I went to Jamaica, that Jamaica is an intensely matriarchal society, right? Yeah. Women run Jamaica, women run the shoal, bro. You know, it's like, and men and literally most of them, they don't even a lot of them. I don't even want to say most that's just general, but many men just sit at home and they looked after by women. Right. Nigeria, again, is a very, very, you know, at least parts of it very, very matriarchal society. Right? Yeah. Islam, you know,
flourishes in Nigeria. And so it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that, you know, it has to follow this way or that way. But there are, you know, Islam has given us these guidelines that we believe, by and large, generally are more in tune with human nature, and the more we build our societies or our families along those lines, the better it's going to be for us. Right. That's what we can say, you know, no, I agree. And I think those examples you give are really good ones, because you're seeing some African societies, Ghana and Nigeria, as you mentioned, you'll see in some of them Gambia, you'll see the women out in the fields, work. And it's not because they've been put out
into the fields to do this work and everything. This is the structure, although not just that they're trading there in the market places they're doing the business, they run the finances. Yeah. And you know, what's interesting to him, one of the things I saw and I know, it gets a lot of flack, and I'm not here to be pro this or Pro that. But one of the things I witnessed and experienced myself living in Saudi Arabia, the 18 years, you know, I'm in Dubai now, is when I saw in the quarters that I was in the prevalence of the women in particular areas of society, and a dominance that they had in those societies, the matriarchal aspects in the example that I'm giving, that
pleasantly surprised me. But that was something that was prevalent. And I'm not saying Remember I said, in particular echelons of society, I'm not going to go right across the whole, but I can only talk about what what I've seen, but not dwelling on that I want to move to another more.
Should I say controversial element that has been thrown into the mix now. And the obscuring of roles, because of what we've seen with the LGBTQ movement, and how that's been thrown into the mix, and same gender,
relationships, and raising children in those same gender relationships. Now, I'm not going to get into the ins and outs, I want to talk about it from the perspective of again, being men being Muslim men, in this whole eclectic mix, if you want a wonderful bit of phrase, and how we and our identities are being challenged in particular ways. Hani Ali mentioned something very important there where she said, I've Hassan can put that up if he finds it. I know he's getting a lot of comments coming up. But we're the men have become feminine, and the females have become masculine. And I'm saying that not pointing directly at LGBTQ homosexuality. I'm talking about clear there. Is
there clear gender obscurity with regard to roles? Okay. And is that something that we are comfortable with? Society? Maybe? Yeah.
I, you know, again, uh, you know, I think that
a lot of these gender roles, right?
They're going to vary from culture to culture, right? So what you what may be considered very feminine, in some places is not considered feminine at all in others, like maybe even the opposite. So something that's considered masculine in one place may be considered feminine somewhere else in a particular culture. Very, right. Right. You know, like, I'll give you a simple example, right? Having long hair, right, many, many Arab cultures, many Arab societies, consider a man having long hair to be very feminine, right? Even though the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam. And they know it had long hair, his hair was down to his shoulders, right? You will never you will never ever ever
see men, even with big beards having long hair, they just don't do it. It's considered you know, it's considered effeminate. You know, like, for example, the Prophet sallallahu wasallam used to have his buttons open. You could see a bit of his chest, right? Yeah, in many Arab cultures that's considered it's considered really like Bad Boy, you know, like, somehow that that's, that's how the Prophet saw some use did nothing. You know, so like, these are even within our culture.
His right who are aware of the Sunnah and their own particular practice, you know, so you have all of this stuff going on, like, for example to add to add to what you're saying, when I first went on camera, and that is a culture to hold hands.
And say, No way. No way. Yeah.
I'm used to do it. But even then still after him, I love you for a lot. If you've grabbed my hands and walk swinging like that, I'll say, well,
it's not something so you're absolutely right. And we know in some cultures DomainKeys happens in our culture of kissing on both the cheeks and everything like that. So that's a good response, I think and to show that I give you an example. I know a brother, right? Convert revert to Islam. He, he hates the job. He said, It's so effeminate. He says, This is what he says it's so effeminate. So like a woman's dress, you can't run in it. You can't do activities in it. Right? And these tubs get little thin, so you can just like walk, like mincing around. Yeah, you can't even walk in it. You just mince in it, you know, like I you know, that's what he says, I'm not this what he was saying.
Right? The point being is that yet, you know, that's the way men dress, right? But we would think why you are in a dress, you know? Like, it's an like, you know, like, How can you even do manly activities in and out?
Do you know what I'm doing? Because you and I both know when we're looking historically, that the tunics in the long garments were the dress of the age. And it was the Visigoths who came with the trousers, the Vandals who came with the trend, and they were looked at as uneducated, unclean. And look at these strangers were in these times. There were those togas and stuff. Yeah, yeah, so the togas and everything was they were the norm for for men.
In the African continent in those days, the pants or the trousers, were the things frowned upon. As I said the Vandals Visigoths were the ones who were the first to wear it. And obviously, it's become Vogue now. So again, yes. What is the feminine what you've said in some code, but there's a common there's a commonality, there were some things that are just effeminate wishes across all cultures, and there's some things that are massive.
Honestly, I'd almost like give you an example. Kohan I can't work on rope lever. Can I just look?
But I know.
Right?
It's like, no, no.
But you know, when I you know, after, when I came to
the province who were with me, I didn't do it. But the brothers were with me. They used to wear the camo. And I know the sisters really used to like it for me, I had a bit of I'll share. So I had a bit of a conflict about wearing color. Because because of my dark complexion. I remember when I go to school, and the goal school says go you wear mascara, you've got really lovely eyes like no, this is just my complexion. So I was like, No way am I wearing cotton? And I've been that's the dispersion put on me. But yes, I think being again, it comes down to being a man. And I think you've given classic examples there of what perceptions are. My thing Abderrahim for us is what we need to
do with our sons. And we need to make sure and request that our wives and mothers do the same thing is that we need to facilitate and nurture our sons sons being comfortable in their own characters and their own personalities and their own identities. And what we've got to be careful of as well. And I'm saying this, because I've seen some mothers try and do this. Some mothers who've had problems with their husbands mothers have had problems with their fathers, they try and steer their son into such a way the model him into the type of man they would have wanted to be there for them. And you see that these these young men grow up being not necessarily effeminate, but very
subservient. And not knowing their own identity, and being submissive to not just women, but to everyone they engage with because the mothers have raised them that way. Then later on, they realize why they're having problems engaging, why they have wives who are dissatisfied with them, because they they are not decision makers. They are not leaders in a particular way. That doesn't mean being a leader and your wife not being a leader, but you can have two plain, really interactive roles with regards to lead in
like this. It's so difficult as a parent not to project isn't it? Like it's like if they especially when you feel there was something missing in your life, especially when you were subjected to some sort of abuse or mistreatment and then you know, you you out of all the goodness of your heart. You don't want your children to be those sort of abusive mistreating people, right.
And it's so different
Go. It's so it's so difficult not to even live your dreams through your children. Yes.
It's inevitable. And I see what he's, I mean, some of the things that concern me, bro is like you saying, you know stuff about being manly. I mean, I think there are manly things like, you know, we go back to where we started, right men basically, like when it simply comes down to it. The basic difference between men and women, the most apparent one is physicality. And obviously, there are women who are super tough and men who are just not, but generally on average, men are stronger, faster, you know, that's it than women, generally they are, there's just no denying it. Like, that's why you have, you know, you still have men and women's sports, you know, you just only just know,
but you do. I mean, because it's just only just, I'm saying, look at what's happening now, where you've got
trans people going into different sports, let's not go there. Because I was just, that's a whole different.
That's a whole different thing. And that's a massive conversation. But in terms of, but I'll let's not go there. But but, I mean, it's still, like, it's still recognized. So I think that things that you know, like, it does surprise me that you know, to find that many many Muslim boys, right? Don't do you know, like, proper manly stuff. They can barely walk. They you know, they don't go camping. They don't do you know, some rough sports like rugby. Yeah. Which is a good rough sport, you know, like, basic stuff, like being strong, being fit, being physical being, you know, having competence in those things. I mean, I I'm a firm but to be, to be honest, like, you know, the crazy thing is
like, my daughters are probably tougher than
probably most, most of the guys out there, because bro, look, I'm, you know, I gotta prepare my children for a bit of a crappy planet that we're going to be living on. Right. And I do think, bro, I do think that you know, it's going to hit the fan, bro. And it's going to be sooner rather than later. Yeah. And yeah, the week will not survive bro. Men or women true, you know, they let me ask you a
thing, bro. Being tough being resilient, you know, being physically strong, right, being able to cope in different environments. You know, it's not just about being you know, a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, all those those things are important and that's all part of survivability, I guess as well. Right. But then the
seats you know, like wrestling, martial arts, horse riding, swimming, you know, like, why, you know, our boys not doing those things. It's just not I agree. I agree with you. But then let's flip it around. It's good to see our brother John Fontaine with us masala, your carry on campaign. And and I hope you're not talking about the carry on films in that instance there. But
what I'd say after he, while we're talking about that, that's very important, all those physical aspects in the campaign and the rugby and things like this, but let's touch upon something else now.
vulnerability, why is it that we? And I'll say why? Why is it that as men we are unable to, or reluctant to, or afraid of showing and sharing vulnerabilities? I'm a totally against that, man. I guess what men should be I think men can show some vulnerability to other men like your best buddy. Right? This is just my I agree. I agree. But bro, I would say this is for everybody. By the way, not just men, but men. And of course, this is part of Tawakkol. Right? Part of Tawakkol. Right? If you remember chef, Abdulkadir, right? He gave us these beautiful series of talks here on loving Allah and loving for the sake of Allah. And he talked about Tawakkol. And one of the things you mentioned,
you know about token is not complaining. If you're sick, you don't complain. And that it includes, by the way, emotional pain day includes these type of things, right? We live in a society where you're almost encouraged to sort of show that you're weak and you're you know, you're what is it? What are they vulnerable? Yeah. Oh, I'm showing how everybody how vulnerable you know, I feel vulnerable right now. Oh, this is a vulnerable picture of is that the word they use? I don't even know. You know, you're right, that something like that. I disagree. I disagree with that. I'm with you on that, that showing that because that's what it is that I don't want to say victim because
there are genuine victims there. But everyone having this crutch of I'm vulnerable and therefore I get attention and I'm validated because I'm vulnerable.
But what I'm saying about vulnerability there is to our women to mothers, we show that to our mothers, but what about to our wives because sometimes our wives have that expectation. And I would say, especially in a lot of the time in black culture of the man,
I mean, these specific with me, so I understand, okay, so whether I'm going to agree or disagree, we have, we might agree, I might disagree. We have fears, we have moments of weakness, we have moments of fear, okay. However, in some of our relationships, and some of the cultures that we are in, it is not right, to convey or share that with the females of our family, or with anyone, you know, being British that that's one aspect to British stiff.
Now, stoicism amongst black cultures, okay, we don't cry amongst each other. We don't show tears, we don't show any even to our wives, or because that shows a weakness that will diminish you as a man. So that you I feel that we shouldn't be able to do that, but not go to the extreme that you said that, oh, I'm vulnerable, and the whole world has got to pay attention. No, I'm not talking about that I'm talking about. We have a good example. The best example we have is in the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam, absolutely. I can think of two incidents, right. Number one, when the Prophet received the first revelation
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, he was really terrified. And he didn't go we went running to. He was shivering. He didn't. He didn't like say, Oh, let me go and hide somewhere, right? I don't want to see I don't want Egypt to see me like this. Yeah. He went back to his home back to his wife and his wife covered him up with a cloak and whatever. And she was reassuring him. So he didn't like go off and hide. Right, that that, you know, that brilliant example that he was in from his wife? Yeah. The second was when,
you know, after the Treaty of
the Treaty of Hebei BIA, when the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in the Companions, they had to, you know, give up making the Hajj. Yeah. And they had to go back. And the Prophet was telling them, you know, everyone to slaughter their animals, and like, no one was doing it. Right. I think it was, um, Selma, the Prophet went to I don't remember which one of his wives he went to. And he said to her, they're not, you know, they're not. I told them to do it, and they're not doing it. So he didn't hide that, like his concern from her. And she gave really good advice. She said,
Well, maybe if you slaughter your animal, they'll just follow you. They're just waiting for you to show the way. And you save your right. Yeah, I think there's two examples, I can think of where, you know, the Prophet did sallallahu alayhi wasallam, show his, you know, vulnerability in that example, after him. And even even more than that, if I could, if I did say, I think that's a perfect example, I think we can match that from a human perspective regarding. And that's what I mean that vulnerability. And it also, I think, all of us need to look at,
that we do not we show them pour out vulnerability out each time to Allah subhanaw taala.
In prayer for the dark than last hours of the night. And if we want to show let out that vulnerability, then we should let that out to Allah. But what you've said with regards to the human element, men should be able to do that in the context that you've given. And you'll see many brothers and sisters have written up suddenly, men crying weakens, the body is not good for you, you've got sister saying no crying is good. So you can see this is something that is seldom spoken about. And I'm glad that we're talking about, we know crying in your salon, as I said, again, you should cry in front of Allah, you must definitely cry. Yeah. So So I said that, you know, if
knowledge doesn't make you cry, it's useless knowledge. Right? So they said, if money doesn't cause you to cry, it's useless. Yeah, it doesn't have a meaning. You know, it's meant supposed to make you cry out, cry out the fear of Allah and the lung. Yeah.
You know, so that type of crying is absolutely fine. But let's that let's bring it back to where you said, though, which is a very important point. I want everyone to see that we're talking about a balance here, that that men need to be doing those activities of with their, with their sons with ourselves of that bonding of that strengthening and things that we saw the the profits are slim do with the sahaba. What we see the MBR had been done. Men need to be doing that. But that doesn't mean now we must be just totally stiff, upper lip rigid, like blokes because we are worried about the persona or the perspective the way we're going to be viewed. If we we let that slip that lip quiver
in front of a wife
Well, as one of the sisters said, Yes, oh, a brother said, some women look upon men who, who may cry and not cry babies, because that's another extreme. And let's not even go there. But someone who cries in front of them, or shows that in front of them as being weak in that instance, then you've got other women who are totally worn to that individual, because it shows that, as one of them have said, the sisters have said, he's got our heart, he has sensitivities. So we've need to strike that balance. And there's no other example, except what you've quoted about the Prophet salallahu Salam on that. So again, looking at us extinction, or evolution, I believe it's somewhere in between, I
believe we're here to stay, we're not going anywhere. And I believe that if we really do try and exemplify the Prophet Muhammad salallahu Salam, like Bernard Shaw said, and if we try and exemplify that, we will be leading examples. For mankind. Again, that's men and women. But I'm saying with the men today, with the security of roles, and with some feeling, they've been diminished, because the dynamics have changed in the workforce, and everything else.
All of these things that have come up that way, the women's empowerment is even more I remember Islam is an empowering religion for women as well. If we look at the example of the Prophet sallallaahu Salam, and we really tried to to exemplify that, then we won't have a crisis of identity, we wouldn't have that balance, inshallah.
Row
reading some of the comments that just
we've, we've
looked at my bank account, I cry.
Anyway, no, I mean, there was some.
Please, I think that's good. There was that last one was very important. Style boy, I cried once in front of my wife and felt ashamed, I feel she didn't know how to handle that situation. And she's never seen a father or brother's cry, thank you style, a boy for sharing that. And I think that, in that, then is a lesson for your wife to understand and acknowledge that this happens. And it's happening to her husband, who can explain why it's happening, and can maybe not educate her, but
make her see that this is another aspect to your character to men's character. And it's not crying because we feel sorry for ourselves. It's not, it's because maybe we feel safe in the company of the person that we're with. And it may be a moment of weakness, and we do feel weak sometimes. And we feel safe, being weak in the presence of that person who were shedding the tears in front of. So love stylet boys, thank you for sharing that, I really do appreciate that you've come forward and mentioned that. And, again, I'll say two brothers who are watching this. And sisters. Now we're not talking about being a blubbering idiot. And, and shedding tears at the drop of a hat and everything
but being vulnerable. And on the flip side, being strong, robust,
outgoing, outbound, like, like abdur-rahim has described all the characteristics of us as men. I think the thing is here is that it comes down to
something that has been we haven't had this conversation, but it's been underlying our whole discussion tonight. And and that is, what does it mean to be a man? You know, what does it mean to be a man? Really? Yeah. And
it all comes down to strength of character. That's what it's really about. It's really about having strength of character. And it and it comes down to being fundamentally honest about who you are. And, and I think the thing is here is that there is something about not having to put on a mask in front of your wife, because a mask is you it's really just you hiding yourself, right? Your mask is really just you. It's fake. That's what it is. It really is fake. And that you see there's, there's a type of mask you put on because, you know, you need to do that, for others to be strong. And for you to lead them and give them confidence. Right? That's not a problem. Right? And sometimes that's
what true bravery is in your heart. You're a coward. Yeah. But you put the mask of bravery on, not for yourself, right? Because you don't want to diminish others. Right? That's fine. Right? That's your intention. Right? But But when we're just fooling ourselves, we put this mask on to pretend I'm this person that I'm not right. I have this authority that I don't, right. I'm this tough guy.
If the unruly not, then is that really being a man, is that really being strong? Is it really? Not? Yeah. So I think we both agree that,
you know, pretending to be vulnerable, because you think that's the way, you know, you're supposed to be. Yeah. Because that's like the new thing, right? People can pretend to be vulnerable. And you know, that's just sad, right? Yeah, I think ultimately, the end of the day, you want to, you want to be able, to some extent with your wife, right? You want to be you. You want to be the real you. That's right. And I guess that's the same thing with your wife. She wants to be comfortable and secure. And so she can be the real her, Ryan, but your life is not a big act is you don't want to have to walk through the front door and put on another act, right? You put on an act out there in
the world. Because you act like the good employer, you act like this, you act like the polite, whatever. And then, you know, you come into the home and you pull on another act. I'm not saying that, you know, you're a psychopath. And then, you know, you walk through the door, and it's like, yeah, I'm gonna be a psychopath now, and like, you know, torture my.
Because if you like that, you better keep up the act. But um, yeah, you know what I'm trying to say, bro, I'm getting too philosophical about it. But you know, at the end of the day, like, sometimes, that whole tough thing is because you're not tough. It's just a lie. Right? You're not really like that. Right? And that actually is a sign of your insecurity. I think that's the point. It's like a paradox. It's like, it seems to be a contradiction, but it's not. And that's why that vulnerability is actually in a weird way, a type of vulnerability is a sign of real strength, that you're not afraid, yeah. To show that vulnerability, sometimes, you know, and that's the point I was going to
come to perfectly said, as we're joined to close, we need to be careful as men or women as well, that we're not seeking validation,
from places that don't deserve us to be externally referenced in in that way, and received. And sometimes we do that we want, we want to seek validation in areas that we shouldn't be looking. And we must ask ourselves, why do I want to be validated by this, by him by her. Now, that doesn't mean that we live in a vacuum. And we say, right, I'm in a bubble. And I don't care what anybody thinks about me, humans don't live like that. But as you said, regarding vulnerability, being a strength, that will only be a strength, when you seek self validation, self validation, self validation, and validation within
an environment of people who can appreciate you doing that, and will not take advantage and will not abuse and will not see that as a weakness in you. Because like we see, in some instances, kindness is looked at as a weakness, vulnerability being shown to a wife or shown to a brother may be looked at as weakness. So we need to be careful where we are showing that and it should be to the closest people, as you have highlighted with the Prophet salallahu, salam to His wife. And also, we got to be careful that we don't go on the flip side of what this is being labeled as toxic masculinity has just been highlighted there. When the sister said, it's very hard to raise boys today. Because of
the dilemma, if you're raising them to be men, that you're going to be accused of saying, they've been raised in a culture of toxic masculinity, then you see the flip side, where then it becomes validated for them to be effeminate, because this is the acceptable type of man that they should be. And neither are acceptable, the toxic masculinity and this overly effeminate man, that's not where we need to be, we need to be somewhere in between. But again, as you said, we're abdur-rahim So well put before a feminist,
a feminist see if that's the word. masculinity, aspects of those are looked at, in different ways in different societies. So what do we have? We have our deen, we have our value values, and we should look at those within the context of the societies we're living in. The claims are sort of social claims and claimants that we're living in. And we've got to be very careful that we're not taking aspects of Dean that have historic quartet connotations, regional geographic geographical connotations, and try to
square the circle by bringing them into a society where they are not only alien, but they conflict. Yeah.
I like when you go quiet because I know you're pondering. Literally thought
You'd frozen bro and I was thinking
I'm gonna
steal I thought we've lost contact
on the subterrane coffee. Fantastic, fantastic conversation.
Like we said most of what we need to say, to be honest, it's just like, continued food for thought like that, obviously, with all of these things we can discuss almost ad infinitum, you know,
you know, is there a crisis of masculinity? Well, I think there is a little bit I don't know if it's a crisis, but there's definitely issues with it. I mean, I do I have a broad myself. In conclusion, I do think I, I have a, you know, I think there are some broad things about what mascot like you said, you said, there are some things cross culturally, that is, uh, you know, generally accepted as being masculine. And, and I do think it's important to maintain those things, because, you know, part of what makes us men is being able to, and that's part of what I think, anyway, man, I'm just gonna go right back in circles to where we started. SR handysize. is asking, saying that prof
possibly a part two. And I think we discuss it again, some other time. Maybe if people have, you know, particular issues they want us to discuss, or a particular issue we didn't cover, they want us to go into it in more depth. They could just message us, that will be great. We're always looking for ideas or things to have conversations about. So just let us know, in Sharla, I think you know, what I think abdur-rahim What we should move to on this and it'd be very interesting. And it'd be an open, honest conversation, how and why we fail. As husbands. I don't want to bring in talking about sisters and everything. I think they can talk best about themselves and represent themselves. And so
many times brothers are talking to sisters, this the perfect wife, this is this. I think we need to talk about why
we, I don't have much to contribute from my own personal experience as failing as a husband. You know, but
that's just a joke, bro. This?
Well, I won't.
I won't. I was trying to say right, I'm so amazing. I have no personal experience.
I think you know what, talking about that, because it's not done. But talking about the positives of how we are as husbands and our shortcomings not we don't have to talk about personal aspects. But yeah, talking about that in relation to the women and mothers daughters, wives. And I think how we are and how we think as men, I think that we should go there speaking to us talking about men talking about men, okay, too many times as we said, we spoken about women and everything like that. No, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters, they best waiting, we need to man up and talk about the issues that we have as men. That's what we need to do, bro as part of Manning up and talking about
some of the problems that we have and the ways we need to improve as men it's a good conversation. Let's do it, bro. Next week. Let's make sure we do it because we said next week we're going to talk more about 911 as well. Okay, fair enough. We couldn't make it last week so apologies to everyone if you're waiting for it but in Sharla I'm ready for it bro. Next week next week we're going to be talking about
we're thinking a title but it's gonna be about
our husbands in short, how can we be better husbands how we are good in some things and we need to be taken given acknowledgement of that as well. And and how why men fell what the challenges are. Let's talk about that and see why is good men hard to find. Why is it good? Why is it hard to find good husbands? I've got an answer for that but we'll have to save it for next week inshallah. Inshallah. Now I want to say to everyone to soccer, we're lucky to you all, Sister law rock. Welcome to all of you. Look forward to seeing you and engaging with you next week. And I will say salaam when they come from me here and him over there. Who is again, Abdur Rahim green and that over there
is that one over there is Dr. Abdullah Baker. And this is a piece of cake at these again. Does everyone just take See you next week? Next time in Sharla Salam Alikum walaikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa brachetto