Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf Mangera – 2 2 The Muslim Concept of Jesus Discussion Between Mufti Abdur Rahman & Dr Brendan Devitt
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the origins of the Bible and the potential for pride in Islam. They explore the use of "has been there" in religion to indicate a person being born without a father or mother, and the importance of Jesus's teachings in increasing faith and moving on from the past. They also discuss the importance of the Bible's teachings in increasing faith and moving on from the past, and the need for respect in Christian teaching. They briefly touch on the holy grail and its connection to Christian values and the need for faith in religion.
AI: Summary ©
Bismillah your Walkman you're
just to pick up on, obviously a number of the things that you were
saying.
I imagined a Christian you as I sat down and read some of these
stories that you've mentioned, from the Quran. When you you read,
I mean, Christians probably didn't know that.
In the Quran, Jesus is virgin born, there's two accounts in the
Koran of Jesus's virgin conception.
And that's quite surprising. And I suppose, as a Christian might
might want to ask you this, this, this sort of this and help you
with your apologetics in days to come. Just another kind of
questions. What one might ask,
Paul, what kind of person is virgin born? I suppose it's an
ontological question. That is, it's a question about the nature
and being of Jesus. You know, I don't know anybody, I'm sure you
don't have to know anybody who was virgin born, right?
And so Christians, or Muslims, of course, believe Jesus was, but
what kind of person doesn't have a human father? So if I was to pose
that question to you, what kind of direction might you point me in to
think about what Muslims believe that because obviously, Christians
are going to say, somebody who is divine doesn't have a human
father.
So what would your response be as a Muslim? I think what I would
probably say here is, as God actually teaches, in the Quran, it
says in the methyl or ISA in the law, he commits it, Adam Holika,
hoomin, Turabian makalah, who couldn't fire cool, that verily
that this is what the Quran said, I mean, obviously preempts this
question, because it's obviously going to be a phenomenal,
phenomenal issue. So it says the example of Jesus,
according to God, is like that of Adam, where God said,
He created them, him, Adam, He created him from soil, in a sense,
they formed his body. He made his form from soil from makalah. And
then he said to it, Be and it was now, if Jesus is to be, my
response would be that if Jesus is to be godly, divine Son, whatever,
then what about Adam, who was even more miraculous? So that's what
the Quran says that if you don't find the birth of Adam, to be so
extraordinary, that it leads you to these kinds of beliefs? And why
would you do that with Jesus who at least had the mother? So I
mean, and I guess the only other option is to say that when Jesus
does come back, Adam won't peace be upon him. But when Jesus does
come back, I guess we'll have some more we can ask, we can ask him
that. Otherwise, we'll be arguing and yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes. I suppose, I suppose as a Christian. The idea, of course, is
if if Jesus was virgin born, and as the Quran says, you know, Allah
says, Be, and Jesus was, why was that necessary? Because Muhammad
was was born of human parents. So why not Jesus? I suppose, a
Christian is asking that kind of question. That's very interesting,
because God does these things which seem very strange to us. He
does certain things, most things that happen in the world, happen
according to a customary ways of the way that God wants a
predictable, but on occasion, he does things which are
unpredictable, that seem extraordinary miracle, to test the
belief of people, because if everything just seemed to go
according to expectation, and, you know, you roll the dice, and it
was six all the time, then what's belief then. And in Islam, we have
this real important concept of you may know and believe they believe
in the unseen. Personally, I believe it's a test to see who's
going to believe and who's not going to believe. But again, we
can be, why not Muhammad? Why not? To Muhammad, because for a person
to be born without a father or mother, it shows a distinction of
sorts, but not necessarily superiority. Because when we would
say that all prophets have distinction, but there were
certain prophets that were given a certain distinction over others.
So in terms of being born without a father that was given to, to
Jesus peace be upon him, but that doesn't prove that he's
necessarily superior to Abraham, for example, who was born of two
parents. It's just an incidental aspect of it. That has its
wisdoms. It's a test for the people, but I don't think it makes
him I mean, I don't think it's ever caused any Muslims.
think, oh, that means Jesus must be superior to Mohammed, why not
Mohammed? Because nowhere did God say that because he was born
without a father. That means he must be superior to, you know,
this profit and that prophets, I perhaps might say, it's, it's
rather more than incidental that somebody would be virgin born. But
incidence or absence? I hear it cyclization. Yeah, I guess so
that's something to think about.
For Christians at least oppose that question. And for Muslims,
because certainly Christians will want to push that. That kind of
question. So, to my Muslim friends, I would invite them to
explore that. Another question would be, and this again, is
fascinating. For Christian. I mean, I imagine most people who
are Christians who haven't read the Koran, but if you do, you
might be surprised to read that Jesus is called the Messiah. And
the Quran, which again, is extraordinary. Why is Jesus called
right the word mercy, which is the Arabic word for Messiah comes from
Messiah, which could mean, these are all a possibility away, he's
called Mercy or Messiah. So one is because he used to pass his hand
over the leper or over the blind person, and he would become
better. So it's Messiah means to pass your hand over something.
Another meaning of it also is that he's able to travel. So these are
various meanings, that a possibility.
Again, it's I think, maybe in Christian thought, Messiah means
the promised one or the but that doesn't have its roots in Islam. I
mean, from the literal perspective, it doesn't have that,
because Antichrist is also called a mercy, because, but there, it's
taken in the passive, where he's the one who's whose eye has been
wiped over. Thus, he's only one ICT. So in Islam, you've got mercy
hit the jungle, which is the Messiah Antichrist, and you've got
mercy, Isa, memoriam mercy, Jesus, son of Mary. Right. So you don't
you don't think there's a connection with the Hebrew notion
MASHIAC, of of Messiah of Anointed One, Anointed One is another
possibility. But yes, yeah. And I suppose a Christian will wonder,
looking at this kind of evidence, whether there is the influence.
And this is something that the Quran doesn't shy away from, from
saying, the influence of the Jewish Scriptures and the Injeel
the Gospels. And so something of the legacy of what's gone before
is carried forward as carried on in the Koran even if it's not
explicated fully, so that we do have these intriguing references,
as I say to, to Jesus being virgin born and also to being the
Messiah, without the Quran ever really fully explaining it in
perhaps the way that you have. But it seems to me that, that there is
a kind of, Judeo Christian vocabulary that's used and carried
forward if you like, into the Koran, but But it's never, it's
never developed, or, or, you know, explained. And I suppose this is
where the Hadith come in. And that's true, but then you see, the
Quran tries to speak about the things which are important for
people without it becoming a book of just discoveries. It's, it only
speaks about those things, which are going to be beneficial for
people to take a lesson. So it doesn't give you the additional
juicy details all the time. It gives you the facts, the big
issue, the big picture, because there's only so many words that
are part of the Quran. So God is very selective in terms of what he
says, and then after that, the rest of it, which is not important
for your faith as such, it's only to placate your curiosity, then I
guess that's where you learn from other sources or you get the other
speculation but then the Hadith fills in some of the other gaps.
And much of the much of the discussion about could you just
tell what hadith is right so Hadith other sayings, the
statements of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, when he's
explicating the Quran are speaking about and a lot of the prophecies
are from him. So all much of the discussion in fact, we have, this
is where it gets really detailed. We actually have a hadith a
statement, a tradition from the Prophet Muhammad peace Giovanni,
which actually says, where Jesus is going to come, what he is going
to look like, what his appearance is going to be. So the Prophet
Muhammad peace when he says that I see as though he's been shown a
visit vision that I see a man with reddish with, with reddish brown
complexion, or wheatish complexion. I can remember
something, you know, when the Passion of Christ movie came out.
Yeah. So I was in Santa Barbara, California at the time. And again,
there was an interfaith program we had with with some of the local
Christian priests, pastors and so on. And
there was a group of
African Americans that came in, right? And they started
challenging the priests that why do people show Jesus as being
white? And they, it was a really embarrassing moment because nobody
was able to give a good answer. So I kept, I jumped in and I said,
Look, what what the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, he
said is that in one tradition he mentioned he was reddish white. In
other one it says he was yellowish, brownish, wheatish
complexion, so he was neither black or white, completely. Right.
So that got them off the hook at that time.
But anyway, so these things are from Hadith, you won't find that
in the Quran as to how Jesus looked. And then the Prophet he
describes the general antichrist, then he describes that, at the end
of time, towards the end of time, Jesus will descend peace be upon
him, he will descend on the eastern minaret of the mosque in
Damascus. Now, what's very interesting about this tradition
is that there was no mosque in in Damascus at the time, Damascus was
only conquered much later. And there was no white minaret,
there's there was no existence of such but he that's what he said
today. If you go to Damascus, if anybody's been to Damascus, and
hopefully God brings stability may or may or may to bring stability
to that region.
It's it's this massive mosque called the Umayyad mosque, and
there is an Eastern minaret and I actually studied in this mosque
for a short period about three, four months in 2009, in 9998,
right, a beautiful place. So there is this white minaret, that's
where he said it will come. There's also other traditions that
explained that the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, will all
be there waiting for Jesus because there will be some Armageddon,
essentially major problems in the world, and Jesus will come down.
So what the Hadith mentions is Jesus will descend, supported by
angels onto this eastern minaret, and then they will leave Him then
He will ask for a ladder that says that he will ask for a ladder
because now he's in the world. So the world is a place of means and
thus he will then come down, and then he will go after the
Antichrist and kill him in a place called LOD in by Jerusalem, right
there is actually a city in Israel called LOD where Ben Gurion
International Airport is the Tel Aviv airport, I've actually
visited the city, there's Muslims that live there as well. It's
actually a Muslim city. There's lots of Muslims that live there
just outside of Jerusalem. Actually, before Tel Aviv, sorry,
it's outside of Jerusalem. So with these disk did all of this detail
is there, then it speaks about the coming of Gog Magog, but then it
shows that Jesus won't have any power against them, the way he
managed to deal with the Antichrist and kill the
Antichrist, he won't have the same power, then what it mentions is
that he will obviously proclaim the truth as to what the truth is,
everybody will come on the same belief, and it gets so detailed in
the Hadith, then you probably read those it says, He will,
He will
do a number of things. One is he will get rid of the swine. Right.
And I think
he mentioned a number of other things. And it says after that
people will be either with him or against him. Right, and he will
proclaim the truth. And that's when and that's
another verse in the Quran actually says, Wait a minute, wait
a minute, who Kitabi the main Umino biller? He will Yamanaka
what's the other verse? It mentions that there are none of
the people of the book. But they will eventually believe in Jesus
in the correct way before they die. And explain to the people of
the book are the people of the Jews and the Christians. Right. So
God has actually given the Jews and the Christians a higher status
than just other non Muslims, because they had a book a
scripture from God, although we believe that it's they've been
changed, and there's discrepancies within them and so on. But they
they had a divine book, and thus, they're closer to Muslims and
others, generally speaking, in terms of having a faith and not
being just agnostic or atheist, for that matter. Moving on just
briefly, before we get to the questions, few more. Jesus didn't
die. According to the Koran, I have read of some Muslim scholars
who argue, are prepared to admit he did die, but was resurrected or
taken up there are some scholars, there may be a minority believe
that Yeah, the question is, was want to ask this, what is the
problem in a sense with with the notion of Jesus dying because I'm
suffering because in a sense, Muhammad suffered, He was
rejected, you know, locally, anyhow. He had, he was involved in
battles, and he died he experienced and suffered. What's
the problem with Jesus experience? I guess it's just the Quran
instead of trying to establish a fact he's the God is saying, I
know what happened. So yeah, I mean, yeah.
If he told us he did down across, we believe it. But yeah, we're
just sure that's why he only focuses on saying he did not down
across. Yeah. Doesn't tell us the details of what happened. Yeah,
yes, he didn't die, and he was raised up. But that's that's what
we believe. Because you're an apologist as well. And I try as a
Christian to be an apologist for Christian faith. And and we both
have to deal and encounter with unbelievers, and people who don't
believe in God, and the afterlife and judgment and so forth, and
don't believe in resurrection and so forth.
And it must be difficult in a sense, if If one says, for
example, that Jesus wasn't crucified, but somebody was
transformed to look like him or made to appear like him, and he
was crucified in his said, you know, as well as I know that, to
go into any historical faculty in any university in the world, one
would have a problem is so amazing. Absolutely. And, and and
in a sense, as a Muslim scholar, is that something you, you have to
think about? Or do you feel there's nothing you can really say
about that? And so you just have to present it and move on? What do
you see? Because for us, we've got a ton of other things to think
about, and the concept of God, the concept of Jesus being crucified
or not crucified, the Quran clears it very clearly. I mean, it says,
I mean, as I mentioned, the words are now Cthulhu, who am I Salah
boo, Allah can should be alone, the matter was made ambiguous for
them. Then it goes on it says, we're in the ladina, Telavi
healer, fish shack can mean that even those people who have
differed about it, they've actually doubtful about what
really happened. And nobody can say for sure what happened right?
Now, for us. That's enough. Because at the end of the day,
Muslims, you'll what you'll find with Muslims is that generally, if
that's what the Quran says, that's fine, the issue of Jesus doesn't
really cause a big confusion for Muslims, because our belief is
through the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. So this is a
historical issue. Sure. So we don't want to I mean, there are
scholars obviously, who'd like to study that more and things like
that, but generally, for me, personally speaking, I've just
moved on. Yeah. Okay. That's what the Quran says. And these are what
some of the commentators give as explanations of what may have
happened in the background. God knows best. And that's how I move
on. And yes, because as a Christian reading the crown, one
of the things that struck me was, obviously the, the importance that
that's given to Jesus, I mean, Jesus is going to have a second
coming and come back as a judge. So that's quite an important
position to have in God's economy of salvation and deliverance, and
so forth. And that sort of thing. That is obviously the miracle
aspect of it. That okay, you had Adam peace be upon him who was
born without father or mother? Yeah, then you had Jesus, right?
Somewhere, you know, in, in the, in the history, that who didn't
have a father. So for us, it's just a miracle. So that for us,
actually probably increases our faith, that God has power of
everything. He doesn't do miracles every day, and they don't, you
know, no human can invoke a miracle like that, because that's
not what this world is about. But they do happen. So that's another
way that we look at it to increase our faith by believing that, I
don't know I know, that's just like a very believing and not
academic way of doing things. But that's what a believer is. Sure. I
suppose what I was driving at as a Christian is the notion that Jesus
is very important in Islam. And yet, in the Quran, Allah was
referred to on 35 occasions, there's very, there's very little
about his teaching.
And this seems to be again, what what you're saying after that, you
accept the fact of Jesus, he was virgin born, he will descend in a
second coming in some kind of capacity as a judge. But it
doesn't it doesn't lend itself to too much reflection, or when
Muslims express their
I suppose their acceptance of the Injeel the Gospels will gospel or
whatever, and respect that the Gospels and so forth, there's
there's very little exploration of, of the Injeel if you like it's
sort of accepted and then bypassed, well, I wanted to,
excuse my rudeness been dropping is what is interesting, I came
across some Hadith, which, you know, tariff calorie you know, I
think he I think he has translations of the Quran I think
tariff calorie. This is very interesting collection of Hadith
of sings Muslim sayings about Jesus, which are quite interesting
from the eighth century, right right through to the 14th. So
Entering. And whereas in the Quran, one doesn't get
really very much about Jesus's teachings, I thought I might just
read a couple of the
Hadith, which which are quite interesting.
For example, this is Al Mubarak, you may have images from the
eighth century or or the, I think that's the is that the second
century in the Muslim calendar. This is just very interesting.
Remember when after speaks about the Hadith, the stories he was
saying? I mean, you're not referring to the Koran, you were
referring to traditions about Jesus that and saying to have been
collected? And what Muslim scholars like, like yourself do
and have done through the centuries? Is they evaluate the
saints, don't they? And to see whether these are authentic or
inauthentic. That's the Hadith have to be evaluated like the
sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ascribed status, right? That's
right. So I think that's just important. Remember that
some of the stuff that after suffering isn't about Jesus in the
Koran, but in the Hadith, which are traditions, from the Prophet
Muhammad that have been handed down, and Muslim scholars evaluate
them, they've done this for centuries, and will decide and
most themselves are not afraid to say such and such as saying it's
not authentic. So if they're quite upfront about that, I thought I'd
read a couple of the Hadith for you, because they are most
interesting. There's nothing controversial in them. But they
are very interesting. And this this one is, comes from our
Mubarak, I don't know whether that means he's, he's the, the
traditional the person who
first came across it but but this is one that comes from the eighth
century of the Christian era. Jesus said, Blessed is he who
guards his tongue, whose house is sufficient for his needs, and to
weeps for his sins. That's very interesting Hadith. Now, here's
another one.
This comes from the late 19th century,
from Abdullah in Qatar, or whatever 884 of the Christian era,
and 271 of the Muslim error. And these are sayings of Jesus that
have been passed on in the Muslim community. Very interesting. Jesus
says this, Blessed is He who sees with his heart, but whose heart is
not in what he sees.
Entertaining very deep. And here's another one try said the world is
a bridge, cross this bridge, but do not build upon it. Right?
That's right. Yeah, a lot of his sayings. Yeah, about asceticism
ABOUT love of the
love of the Hereafter love of the other world and not love of this
world. Here's another one, which is my favorite one. Christ passed
by a group of people who hurled insults at him. And he responded
with blessings. He passed by another group who insulted him.
And he responded likewise, one of his disciples asked, why is it
that the more they insult you, the more you bless them, as if
inviting this upon yourself? Christ said, a person can bring
forth only what is within him.
So they're very, as a Christian artist in a very profound
thoughts.
Here, here's another one then from
this is from the early 12th century.
Jesus was passing by a cemetery. This is from Abu I'll I can see
this property I'll Kasim. I'll be sorry, about costs him something.
Yes, that's right. That's what I say.
And this is from the early 12th century from the 1100s. Jesus was
passing by a cemetery, he called one of the dead, and God
resurrected him. Jesus asked him, Who are you? I was one supporter,
the man replied, I was carrying some firewood for a man and broke
off a twig to clean my teeth. Since I died, I've been asked a
lot about the twig.
So the fascinating the sayings, if they weren't authentic, if they
weren't, the still intriguing that they are coming from a non
Christian community.
So actually have Hunza use of he's actually compiled a book of the
same essay. It's called walking on water. Yes. And actually, I think
that's based on a particular story that's related and somebody asked
Jesus, peace be upon him, how can you walk on water? He said with
certainty, but we have certainty as well.
Right? So he said, No, the only time you have certainty is if
gold, sand and stone all become the same for you.
That's what Yeah, so a lot of them are about asceticism, yes. It's
extremely profound, the very, very moving pieces and but these are
Hadith traditions of things.
And you know about Jesus which which are not mentioned in the
Quran, but which Muslim scholars think are unbeliever authentic. So
having said that, I just want to move on. Finally, for
sort of the concluding part of the evening, really, by looking at
some of the questions that people have asked, there's a lot here.
And obviously, I don't think we can get through all of them. But
we can try and get through some of them. I don't haven't looked at
them yet.
But if the too long, or I can't read them, or we've covered them
already, I might bypass them. So please don't take any offense. The
first one look at again, this five, five or six lines here, let
me see.
Well, this is just a question. And I suppose if we can ask, I'll get
brief answers for this. We'll go through as many as we can. What do
Muslims believe about the Holy Spirit?
Well, it depends on what you mean by the Holy Spirit. But generally
speaking, it's you've got God. And then you've got the angel Jibreel.
We call him Gabriel. And then if that's the Holy Spirit that's
being spoken about, right. Now, it's interesting, because in
there's no concept of Trinity, as you know, of course. And that's
another talk. We'll have you back for now, if
we don't have time to go into tonight, but it is interesting,
that Jesus is actually called Spirit of God isn't he is called
the Spirit as well. Yes. Because he was born rah, rah Minho? Yes.
Because he was born from the Spirit blown into Yes, directly as
opposed to through impregnation? Yes. Such a man. So again, that's
intriguing. These are tantalizing for Christian.
So let's move on. So really, the Holy Spirit then doesn't really
feature in Islam.
Now, let me see.
Right, I just put that into one side. I think that's a bit
too long. Yes. It's a good question. Why do you say peace be
upon him?
And this individual goes goes on saying about people who are long
dead? Okay. That's a very good question. I'm glad you asked that.
I bet you are. See, because I think I think the Christian is
actually sharing this because once I was with Rabbi, and he mentioned
that Jews are not required to be an emulate David. In fact, he
mentioned the story to me to us as a congregation, he said that a
person will come to, to God in the Hereafter. And God will say to
him, What have you brought? He said, I tried to be like David and
everything. And God would say to him, but I already created one,
David, why did you try to be like him for? Right, but I think in
Islam, in Islam, definitely. And I think in Christianity as well,
it's like trying to be like someone revering them. So our
concept is that there were approximately 124,000 prophets
that God sent from Adam, to then Jesus, and then Muhammad, peace be
upon them all. And we actually required as part of etiquette, to
say peace be upon them, to be respectful to them, and there's,
so we similar expressions, like of happy memory, or whatever, not
very religious, but it's, it's that kind of rite of thing of of
showing respect. Okay, good. Let's have a look at the next one.
Again, if you could be brief, just because we want to get through as
many as we can, as a Muslim, and how can you be sure of forgiveness
for sins? You can never be sure. That's one thing you can never be
sure. But you have hope. One thing that God does say, and we're
taught in Islam is that if you sought forgiveness, and there are
conditions for forgiveness, which is to regret your sin, to promise
never to do it again, and to abandon the sin, then you've got
the hope for reward. But our generally what's explained is that
a believers faith is in between hope, and despondency. So you
can't if you're despondent, you're not a believer. And if you have
too much hope, then you're, you're that doesn't get you anywhere. So
it has to be between the two. You have to be hopeful, but you have
to also be frightened, and you have to have your love for God.
And hopefully he'll forgive you as long as you're doing everything
right. But you can never be 100% Sure.
They while you have it from the Imam himself. Is there anything
about Christianity that would make you consider becoming a Christian?
I didn't write this.
It might look like my handwriting, but
I've never really had to give it a thought. Because when you're happy
with the house that you live in, I mean, and you're quite comfortable
with it, then your eyes don't go to other places, you know, so
we're not offended.
I thought you'd say that.
Um,
let's see. Just put that on one side. We've dealt with that.
Now, this this question is a question
That's very typical today. You you hear this a lot today? Do you
believe that all religions, Muslims, Jews and Christians will
all end up in the same place? Anyway? The way generally that's
explained from a faith perspective is that any believer of any
prophet of the time the Prophet that's active at the time, so in
the time of Jesus peace be upon him, it was those who followed him
with his true message, time of Moses is true message. And then
Thus, in the time of Muhammad, peace be upon them all. Those who
followed him, they will have the salvation and those who changed
and who modified or
didn't follow the true teachings, they will not be in the same
place. That's the belief that Muslims hold very good. Let's have
a look at next one.
Well, the answer this has to be No, I think there won't be any
prophet after Muhammad. In now we believe him to be the last. Okay,
Jesus will come back but not in the capacity of a prophet. Okay.
What capacity will come back as a leader, as somebody to deal with
antichrist and as an imam?
Like yourself? No, no, I mean.
Now, let's see.
Another one. We're nearly there. Well, I think we'll get through
these.
Like, I'm just ignoring ones that we've already sort of touched
upon. So please bear with me.
Something on the Virgin conception, which we've tackled a
little bit tonight is a blank sheet of paper. This is a
philosophical, like a Buddhist, a Buddhist poem. You have to ponder
the blank, invisible, invisible, invisible ink, perhaps. Let's see.
Right, okay, that one's too Christian.
What does that mean? Well, it's sort of
it's a bit obvious. Okay. No, it was just by Jesus. Christian
claims Jesus is divine. And Muhammad is human. And so I think
we've, we've sort of I think we've, we've dealt with that.
Getting again, we'll deal with that.
So factually incorrect.
Let's see.
Right, that's, again, to do with 21st century stuff. This is like,
we've got a tradition which says that, to ask good questions is
half of knowledge. Yes, yes. And we've another one as well that a
fool can ask more questions, and the wise man can answer. That's,
that's a good bit. There's another, there's another blank
one. So I think this is all very profound. And we're going to make
it let's see.
Well, this question, I'm not sure exactly what it means. Maybe you
will, up to what part is interpretation play in, in the
Muslim curriculum, I guess that's how to interpret the Quran. And
maybe the strategy for doing that, is that a big part of community
life, it's very big, because the Quran is a very general and
universal book, which stands the test of time, and thus, we're
discovering new things all the time.
For example, the Quran speaks about pillars between the heavens
and the earth that keep them the way they are that you cannot see
lamp Roja. It's only recently that we've actually discovered these
pillars of force that keep the world where it is. The embryonic
stages are talked about in the Quran, but I'm sure 1400 years
ago, they, it would just have to be believed. And yet today, the
Quran that one of the most important one of the most
fascinating things was that the Quran speaks about Pharaoh.
The one that dealt with Moses, oppose Moses and the Quran, say,
Allah says in the Quran, that today we're going to give you
respect with your body so that you could be a lesson for the people
after you that was set. 1400 years ago, there were no mummies that
were discovered, then Howard Carter, whatever his name was, he
only discovered about over 100 years ago, the mummies there and
today, you go to the Egyptian Museum, the Pharaonic Museum,
you'll actually see it there. But 1400 years ago, and for 1000 years
or more, that was just a verse that we believed in, but we didn't
see it in action. And today we see the action. So there's constant
revelation and dusters interpretations that are needed
the interpretation, you have to generally go first to the Hadith,
the sahih Hadith, which means the authenticated narrations because
we have this really rigorous system that authenticates the
sayings of Muhammad peace be upon him, because there have been mis
attributions or fabrications and spurious integrations that have
been attributed to him. So we have to take those and then there's a
whole methodology that you have to follow to that. So that
interpretation is living it has to, to contemporize to apply the
teachings to any given time and that doesn't just go on with
scholars that goes on in the mosque, in classes that you might
teach. Generally, scholars should be teaching it mainly
Scholars is it Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Essentially,
what can I say? Just, you know, the whole idea of the witch Jesus
series isn't to have a fight or an argument or anything like that,
because I've been involved in that kind of stuff in the past and in
other connections, and I find that very unproductive. And the idea
really was to let a Muslim and others come on their own terms.
And first as Christians who are so ignorant of Islam and Judaism, and
other faiths, to let a spokesperson for that faith speak
of their own accord, and I think after you've spoken very, very
eloquently of Islam tonight, and you're very much we have only
touched the tip of the iceberg. There is so much in preparation
for meeting who because we were chatting over a year ago when we
interact with each other. I spent about 300 pounds worth
money on my wife doesn't know on
our books on on, she's here
on Islam, and,
and, and our great friend Ali Sharif has seen some of those
books. They are impressive. Aren't they ally for Christian? They are
for Christian, I've got quite a selection of stuff. But we really
are only touching the iceberg. I have to say I have I have great
respect for Muslims. And it goes back to an incident I remember
several years ago now
watching on television, when there was a blasphemous play on in
London, I think it was the Jerry Springer play that was on where I
think it was, it might have been some other one where Jesus was
being mocked and ridiculed. And the Muslims were out on the street
protesting within hours, you know, when the passion of grass came
out?
I was going to take part in this discussion. Yeah, so I should have
watched it. But I couldn't bring myself to one. Yes. Even though it
was it was there on my desk, you know, somebody sent me the file. I
said, I can't watch it. Because the problem is that even when you
watch the 10 commandments, and you see Moses depicted by this
particular actor who's nowhere close to Moses, right, no offense,
but
every time then you read in your scripture about Moses, he comes to
mind. And that's not Moses. So I'd rather leave Moses, peace be upon
him and Jesus peace be upon him, you know, ambiguous in my mind,
and to understand him from the way not the way the actor looks. So,
yeah, if people are going to say anything about Mohammed, or Jesus,
we would definitely you will see Muslims get up Yeah, to do. And as
I say, It impressed me, because there were no Christians to be
seen anywhere.
Shame on us.
Next month, if you come back on the 13th of October,
you can hear an interview I'll be conducting with Rabbi notton LiFi.
I don't know if he's here tonight. If he is, it's going to be much
harder on you.
But
that will be interesting as well, not Han has worked with Jonathan
Sacks, who's now stepped down as Chief Rabbi of Great Britain. And
he's a great guy. And I will be putting him through his paces, as
as as we explore
perceptions of Jesus in Judaism. So please make a note of that. And
that is Sunday, the
13th of October at 7pm. Rabbi mattone Levy, so And after that,
then we have the controversial Christian
minister, Reverend Steve chalk,
who has recently come out in favor of
same * marriage. So we'll be putting him through his paces in
November. And you've been a fantastic audience. And it's been
great to have you, but please, can we show our respect
and appreciation
for Dr. Abdur Rahman.
Thank you very much. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, good night.