Abdullah al Andalusi – TV Discussion – The policies of the UK government are encouraging racial and anti-Muslim hatred

			Hello, and welcome back now reports of racially and religiously motivated hate crimes hit a new high
across England and Wales in 2020. Apparently, that's according to new home office data, which shows
that racially and religiously aggravated offenses went up by 7%. Last year, some forces so much
bigger rises with lesser lesser showplaces offenses going up the most by 82%, followed by a force in
Wales, which had an increase of 49%. So Joining me to discuss this now is Abdullah, and Lucy from
the Muslim debate initiative and the rapper and podcaster zubi. Good evening to you both. I've done
that. Let me start by you. We're talking now about the rise in these hate crimes. Does that concern
		

			you?
		

			Well, course it should concern all of us. It should concern anyone who has a desire to see
		

			the country that we live in, where people are tolerant of each other's differences of opinion of
each other's different ethnicities, different backgrounds and languages. So it should, it's a strong
concern for all of us to see this ongoing rise, especially concerning we've had decades now of, you
know, anti racist policies that were meant to be tackling this, but I think we have been asked the
question, what is really the cause of this, and I think if you look at towards the current
government, as is controlled by the Conservative Party, we see that there's not really that they
don't really take it as concerning as anyone as everyone else should be, to deal with these, these
		

			kind of policies to deal with this, this rise of, of racism, Rise of Islamophobia, Rise of general
ethnic tensions or xenophobia that we've seen in in England. And so what we need to see from them is
a recommitment to anti racist and anti anti bigotry policies to kind of quell these, these these
kind of rising and concerning statistics. So I've done as explained there that everybody should be
really concerned about the rise in the statistics, are you really concerned about them?
		

			For me to have a proper opinion on this, I would need to delve into the data a little bit more. I
think, first of all, we're talking about specifically a 7% rise in reported incidents, right, that
doesn't equate to a 7% rise of incidents themselves. So I think we actually need to parse this out.
I think it's a lot more nuanced than what any headline may say. Now, if it's parsed out, and it
turns out that yes, there has been a rise in actual incidents and offenses, then, of course, that's
a cause for concern. If any, you know, I think we all agree regardless of any sort of political
orientation, etc, that people should not be harmed, discriminated against, you know, treated in any
		

			prejudice manner based on their race, their gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, etc. We all
agree with that. But with statistics and data like this, it's very easy to paint whatever picture
you want. For example, when we say a hate offense, what does that actually? What does that mean? I
don't know what the proper definition of that mean, does that mean?
		

			I do know what, yeah, I didn't know what it means. And after that, so you say that you've got a real
concern that everyone should be really concerned about the rise in these statistics. I'm not overly
concerned about the rise in the statistics, I absolutely am against genuine examples of hatred and
discrimination, etc. But the rise in these figures reported today, they don't concern me so much.
And I'll tell you for why, because here I have the CPS definition of what a hate crime actually is.
It says it's a criminal offense, which is and this is the bit that gets me perceived by the victim
or any other person to be motivated by hostility, of course, around those protected characteristics.
		

			However, it then goes on to say, There is, however, no legal definition of hostility. So we use the
everyday understanding of the word, which includes things like unfriendly nerves. So I've done a
when I read that, and I understand that and that the actual definition is an offense which is simply
perceived by anyone to be motivated by potentially unfriendly notes. I have a concern about that.
		

			Well, I think we're looking at these statistics from the perspective of a report by the Wagner
police agencies and they have certain criteria as to how to establish the motivation of hatred and
in English law is long established, that offense can must be established by what a reasonable person
would consider to be deliberate willful hatred, not just general unfriendliness. So if you have to
go beyond just genuine friendliness, because for him to actually show up on the internet, because
the internet is predominated by in many cases have genuine friendliness, so it does go a bit beyond
that.
		

			Now I do agree that the kind of the the rise since reported is only quite small. But this represents
a general rise we see from other measures, for example, victim support, which was an organization
that monitors and looks at hate crimes did notice that the average is an average increase of 73%. In
race and nationality, hate crimes for the average week in 2021, is measured in about January, March,
compared to the same time last year. So there's a 73% rise in in kind of reported hate crimes and
also other types of discriminations and in bigotry. So it's not just this one statistic that we're
looking at, there's actually quite a few but this one system is this reason cystic is reported by
		

			from police agencies. And so we have to take that seriously. And of course, any rise should be taken
seriously, because what we'd hope to see is a is a general decrease over time. And if that decrease
isn't happening, we have to ask why. And we have to ask, what's the environment that's
		

			after I can tell you why? Because what's happening at the moment, I'll give you an example. The
police are focusing monumentally on this. So for example, the Nottingham Shire police had a day of
action, all around hate crimes, urging people to report them, they are proactively going out and
encouraging people to lock what they perceive to be hate. Now, when you have that proactive
encouragement of people, and you're telling them record what you think, may have been helpful, then
there is no way that those statistics are going to go on the decline. What's your view on that to
me?
		

			Yeah, I mean, as someone who's got a large following online, and who's an active user of Twitter and
other social media, I could have reported probably at least 300 plus hate crimes against myself in
2020. If I had chosen to write if if we're talking in terms of hate crimes and hate incidents, if
that includes online stuff, if that includes nasty emails, if that includes racial, racist, DMS,
etc, then I could have logged 300 plus of those, right, probably 500 Plus, I love I love zero,
right. But depending on how people choose to report these things, it's so hard to get an accurate
number. Now, I totally agree that if you are seeing a rise of you know, 1%, or 10%, or 70%,
		

			absolutely, then it means that it's worth looking more into the issue. But I think until you've
looked more into it, and actually parsed this data out and really seen what's going on, I think it
could be a massive red herring, right? We see this a lot with data, it's very easy to lie and to
manipulate data, you can change the boundaries, you can redefine terms, you can base things off of
reports, rather than actual incidents of these incidents, how many? Was it proven that there was
actually a crime because right now we're talking about the 7% rise in reports, we're not talking
about a 7% rise in Christ necessarily, but it's worth looking at in more detail and really getting
		

			to the bottom of it. But I think having seen a lot of these situations before in various ways, I
know not to jump to massive conclusions on these things. And to let emotion take over, I think it's
better to look at the data and really, really see what's going on, I haven't had a chance to do
that. But I think it's a sign that you need to look at it. And then you can see if there's a real
issue, and then you can see, okay, what's the best way to deal with this? That's my personal
perspective. Yeah, I respond to that, in terms of what happens with these figures, the home office
days, we're actually sure that in 2020, almost 30% of cases will close without a suspect being
		

			identified. And I'm sorry, I guess my concern in all of this is I you know, racism, discrimination,
etc, has absolutely no place in our society, everybody should be able to live their lives, free from
hatred, abuse, and attacks. And I want anyone that is genuinely discriminating against people being
racist, I want those people to be dealt with and prosecuted. And for those issues to be taken
seriously. My concern with this is that sometimes I feel that, you know, desperately encouraging
people to report anything and everything undermine this, perhaps the true crimes that have been
committed in this area, and those things that really genuinely do need police resource to stop those
		

			attacks.
		

			When I wouldn't think so. I mean, we have automated systems of reporting, thanks to modern
technology. And so I think that we should raise issue when there is issue. All of us should, should
report when deemed necessary, at least to give the wider society the sense of the gravity of what's
happening, the fact that the true nature, the true amount of
		

			You know, hate based kind of abuse that we see online is actually not reported by this is just the
tip of the iceberg. And so this is why it needs to be drawn attention to. And and while I applaud
measures by
		

			some of the police to make people aware of the gravity of hate based crimes, as we say, we also have
to look at the origins and causes of this. And when we have a conservative party, who in the past
has said the Prime Minister has said, David Cameron, prior to the Boris Johnson has said that it was
a worry for him that if there were some certain Muslims, for example, had an allegiance to a greater
than than the nation state that implying they could they really be trusted. And we see obviously
Boris Johnson's comments about women and letterboxes, we shouldn't be surprised to see that, in
essence, the people many of the people are seeing the government give them a green light to express
		

			their hatred because if the government can spread hatred like this, or or kind of imply it, in many
cases, then they think to themselves well, why can't we then that it's okay for the government's
okay for us. So we have to look at the causes of why xenophobia is becoming increasingly more
acceptable to express online and how better we can address it. And at least we can all agree that
people simply reporting into an automated form that the hatred received is at least a vital
necessary first step to at least your wider society, the true gravity of the amount of hate based
abuse that has been flung against people on the basis of characteristics such as their beliefs, or
		

			their ethnicity, things which we should not accept at all in a civilized society. Hello, I'll deluzy
and zubi thank you both very much for your time. I want to know your views. Do you think that
actually, I hate crime you