Explosive debate with the highly vocal Irish feminist at a Dublin university, Rebak’ah Mckinney-Perry, and the Muslim speaker, Abdullah al Andalusi, on the topic ‘does Islam treat women right?’
Debate was held on 18th February 2014, hosted by the University College Dublin Law Society.
Good evening, everybody and welcome to the 12th ordinary meeting of UC Law Society, which is in conjunction with the Atlanta evening, the public faces of which is to discuss the motion that this House believes that Islam treats women, right. And this debate will be slightly different to our usual format of debates in that there will be only one speaker on each side. So rather than having and speaking for seven minutes each, they'll speak for approximately 12 to 15 minutes each. And then there'll be a period of rebuttal between the two and then we'll open up the debate to the floor. So if any of you disagree with or maybe agree with something that one of the speakers said, then would
be the perfect time to do it. And, and following that they'll have closing remarks. But during the initial speeches when both speakers speak, and I'll give them one minute of protected time, after one minute, you'll hear this, that means that the floor is an open. So that's another time if you want to raise an issue with one of the speakers, I'd highly encourage any of you to do so obviously opposing slides you're more than welcome to do so as well. And with regard to private business of the house, and we have no motions on those even have anybody got a motion for the law society that is not on notice.
Very good. Um, there are no questions for the auditor at this time that are on notice. Has anybody got a question for me at all, but has not been put on those?
Brilliant, okay. And we're because we're quite a bit late starting, we're going to skip through correspondence and get straight into the the public business at the highest. So without any further ado, it's my great pleasure to introduce you to this evening, Mr. Abdullah andalusi at who is a an international speaker on debater on Islamic affairs and he's a co founder, founder of the Muslim debate initiative on proposition this evening.
And then you can take the podium and but speaking on the opposition this evening, we've got Rebecca McKinney Perry, who is the gender equality officer for the city Students Union.
Without any further ado, I'd like to call on Mr. andalusi. To open the gates open the case for the proposition and the debate as a whole. You're more than welcome to take the podium or if you prefer, it's on there. It's completely up to you whatever you're most comfortable with. Thank you Here here.
I greet you with the Islamic greetings of peace are Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Peace and blessings be upon you. Oh, I'd like to find the UCD Law Society and the Society for inviting me. I kind of heard about this kind of last minute, and they said, there's going to be a debate on the issue of women's rights and Islam. I thought, you know what, I'm up to the crack. So I will this is what will you say? Yes, so I will, I was interested to do this debate, especially because this issue, there's a lot of misconceptions about what's on its approach to women's viewpoints towards women and economic creed towards women. So we're going to discuss some of these first and foremost,
getting straight into it. The second viewpoint towards women and men is one of equality. So we see in the Quran, chapter three, verse 195, God says, Do not waste the deed of any do among you be the manual or female, the one of you is as the other. So we see and that's just one of many verses in the Quran, which establish that there is a fundamental equality between men and women. In the eyes of God. We see that the the work, the kind of the relationship between men and women is one of cooperation, and not one of subjugation. So we see in the Quran, it says, and the believers men and women are friends, one or the other, they enjoy what is right, they forbid what is wrong, and they
established worship and pay charity, and they have been God and His Messenger, and for deed, God will have mercy on them. So the relationship between men and women in Islam is one of cooperation and allies, no battle of the sexes, or no subjugation. We also see that contrary to Unfortunately, some Sommerfeldt misrepresentation of Islam, women are viewed as intellectually sound and equivalent to men. So we see that if a husband accuses
His wife of impropriety, his testimony as one man can be negated by her counter testimony, and that would be a negation. So there is an equal testimony between males and females. We also see that in the case of *, and in the case of case concerning son to do a family, the prophet Mohammed Salaam Salaam accepted the testimony of one woman. According to the Hadeeth narrations, we also see that the women were foundational in the report, reporting of Islamic scripture 40% of Sunni had the fixture this hadith is a recorded testimony saying or action or science, the Prophet Muhammad SAW someone something 40% of it has been generated by is shot his wife that's 40% of the habeas corpus
or scriptural corpus of the sooner as we see it was
being related by a woman and being accepted. her testimony was being accepted, even though whatever agenda is irrelevant. Now, what people miss confused about Islam is that they believe that in Islam, men are individualistic, and women have to be devoted to the family. This is not the case. Islam is not an individualistic ideology. And hence, I suppose people from liberal backgrounds with a foot who believe in philosophic individualism, sometimes misunderstand both the genders male and female, and Islam, they both revolve around the family, both of them, they, the family is considered to be the fundamental unit of society, not the individual, an individual doesn't create themselves, they
don't educate themselves and raise themselves you are born into a family is you're not born.
As a or rather human born as an individual or independent of anyone not needing anything and raising yourself and the culture yourself, by yourself doesn't exist, we're not islands unto ourselves. Now, I will discuss that men have a lot of obligations to the family, they have to work and provide for the family, wherever they are poor and their wife is richer, and men have a void obligations. And I will go and only discuss the women's rights on this on this issue. And when it's not, when we use the term rights, rights is an obligation Someone has to you. We don't believe that rights are just some kind of fundamental universal entitlement, as the natural natural rights. We know that people
who believe that no such thing as natural rights and universe in terms of its doesn't physically exist, what gives it existence it is human duty duty humans, acknowledging your rights and giving you your rights. So all right, start with duties. Now in Islam, women have the right to own her own property, she can keep her property off the marriage and not give any of it to her husband. She didn't have to change her name. So she doesn't become a husband property in that sense needs to change her name, she retains her name, she has the right to force and financial support for her needs. in marriage, irrespective, as I said, of whether she's rich or husband's poor, she has the
right to be given a marriage gift or a dowry. In many cultures, the woman has to give the husband a dowry in Islam. We said no, the husband or the groom must give his perspective wife, a marriage gift or dowry and Islam women have the right to vote and what I mean by votes in this context is Muslim we believe and stand for the Pledge of Allegiance or failure. To establish authority you must give a pledge of allegiance and the Prophet Mohammed Salaam Salaam was not content to only ask men for the Pledge of Allegiance but also he asked women for the pledge of allegiance to showing the equal parity in political engagement. Women and men both have the same obligation to acknowledge that so
in a heavy report by the prophet Mohammed Solon, that seeking knowledge and obligation upon every Muslim women have the right to work on their own business, the prophet swipe Khadija on how she was a successful businesswoman. Women have the right to education, and in substitutes to such a degree that women at the time of Muhammad Salam complained that in mixed mixed sessions of learning about Islam or learning education with men, they weren't able to concentrate properly because because men always made my catina want to ask their questions first, and so on and so forth. So to rectify that the Prophet Mohammed Hassan gave had women's only days so that they can have direct access to the
Prophet Mohammed and he didn't give any men's only days but he gave women's only days to ensure that they have the unfettered access they needed. Women have the right not to be physically or emotionally abused by her husband. This is related in a prophet of the Prophet Mohammed who said, when a person came up to him and asked what do you command us about our wives for the son of the Prophet is what you commanded to do to our wives and we treat our wives and he said, give them the same 50 give them sing through the you have the same kind of club and you have, you know, beat them and Do not insult them. You can't even insult your wife verbally. We see
That in Islam, the woman has a right to choose who she marries a woman was forced by her by her father to marry someone against her will, she complained the Prophet Prophet, the prophet Mohammed Salam offered to another marriage. Fortunately, she actually got into it had gotten attached to her husbands because no, I didn't want to divorce my, my husband, I'm just testing the principle. So it's all women have the right to choose who she married to. She also has the right to emotional and sexual satisfaction from her husband, she also has, which is also a written narration by the prophet Mohammed sauce on them, whereby a man was staying away from his wife, and he was engaged in
spiritual actions or too many spiritual actions. And he was neglecting his wife, the prophet Mohammed, some ordered him to go back to his wife, and he said, your wife has a right over you. And this includes that women have the right to the husbands, you can say gametes, so to speak, his * woman, a man can say I'm not going I'm going to use contraception. And if the wife doesn't want that, the man can't use contraception, she has a right to it, she got married to him, and marriage is a consent to for reproduction. We see that in Islam, women have the right to dignity and respect. A mother in Islam is considered to be three times more respect worthy, then the Father, we also see
that the woman has the right to take her husband to court, if he's not fulfilling his obligations or duties under Islam, and to a Sharia court, maybe maybe not in a in a Western court, the DA probably won't care. But in Islam, he can take him to court and he can be punished for not fulfilling his duties or for even abusing his wife. Now, I will recite some some more interesting narrations that kind of underline this. So we see the Quran tells
men that to live with women on a footing of kindness and equality, which is the chapter four verse 19. We see that the relationship between a man or woman in a marriage is not one of subjugation and *. The Quran says among his scientists curfew wise amongst yourselves that you may find opposing them. And he put between you affection and mercy, not between you obedience and subjugation.
We see that the Prophet Mohammed so the Quran tells men not to complain about their wives or to think oh, why is my wife not having this or that allows me to be content with even his wife's lack of something. So the Quran says if you if you just if you take a dislike for something in them, and maybe you dislike a thing that God brings about this prove a great deal of good. So if you might not have much luck in your wife, but you should accept her for who she is. Maybe there is goodness in this, we see that the Prophet Mohammed sauce on even told men regarding sexual
women that they shouldn't men should not approach that women as an animal, but actually should engage in romantic gestures, and so on and so forth to make sure that she feels that she's appreciated, not just lusted after as an object or sexual object. So we see and then we see that the Prophet Mohammed Salim said, the best of my community, the best of men are those who are best to their wives. So the measure of a man, the measure of a man is related to how good he is to his wife. But no one says that Islam is about the subjugation of men to the women. So it's about complementarity between the genders. And it's not about it's not about subjugation of one against
other both have rights against each other.
And now that kind of juxtapose will maybe I think, perhaps some problems arising from maybe, you know, Western philosophy on this matter. Generally speaking, in the West, it's considered now along with popular culture, maybe not you here but along public culture, that motherhood or being a housewife, although it's not obligatory for a woman, to seek being housewife being a mother, but it is in Islam summit which is praiseworthy, because being a mother, being a being one who nurtures the future of mankind is fundamental to the survival of the human race. The male mean what is the male's role he said, Oh, he gets to go to work and he has, he has jobs and so on so forth. But firstly,
most of you here most of you, most of the guys here or any of the women here, you will not attain some noteworthy thing in your in your your work that such that you'll be remembered for the next 100 years. Most of you won't be remembered after maybe 20 to 30 years after you died depressing thought sorry, but you will work your pay your taxes, you will you will go on retirement and then you will die your grandchildren I want to see your family will be the only ones that remember you but the people are the columns at your workplace your workplace will not generally remember you and even even those that have kept your name on record will know what record is behind that name will know
who you are just know you as a name. Mother, only a very small number of people in the history of humanity attained greatness like Aristotle and Socrates and whatever as we know their name. Most of us will live and die in Islam, the man is his relationship is an obligation to the family is to work
To provide for his family, and then once he's provided for his family, and they're secure, and they don't need them anymore, you know, like, like a drone be he dies. And that's it. Right? No one says, Oh how unfair time is upon men. No one says that. We've been coached to think that women should be judged by the standard of men, that unless they attain a career like men do, women have no values. They've turned women into economic objects now that can only be judged based on value of how much money they produce, or how much active economic activity they do, which is incorrect. Of course, there's also the problem of a sexual objectification of women, which has become predominant in
fortunately, Western society. And feminists would agree with something that would agree with me on this on this matter. You know how fashion and the media leads women to feel socially compelled to mutilate themselves to literally fit an inhuman definition of beauty. Thanks to Photoshop, we see with I mean, actual physical mutilation, breast implants, injections of collagen hair products, body waxing, high heels which kind of shape the back of your your foot saw her
hair fucking anorexia bulimia, using hot irons, and even lady applauses, which is basically female genital mutilation, which is is committed we see we see in in a lot of clinics that have that does plastic surgery 9% of the clientele are women. Why is it 9% of the of the clientele for plastic surgery clinics, women, this is a great travesty. Why are women judged based on their looks and based on how they dress? This is a problem. Now the thing is the when Islam insists upon modesty, modesty for men and women, by the way, people what people don't know is that men have to cover their body shape and unable to their knees. So any of you if I was wearing tight clothing, you should
vacate the premises now and to get change.
It's not believed in policies or both, but because
the thing is that okay, people ask me, why is it that Islam has women more covered up the men? Well, obviously, women have more evidence of an activity called reproductive anatomy on them than than a man. That's just biology one on one doesn't mean that women are more inferior than men are men are more for the moon, or, or so on so forth. I know what it's really saying is that you know what, let's turn the public space, not into a sexual zoo, or into some kind of place where people are just constantly engaging in sexual politics and tensions and problems like this, let's turn the public space into a professional space, an educational space, a space where you can socialize with people,
and you can interact with people and * doesn't is not the appropriate issue at hand in the public. So this is really what is Tom's approach is to the whole issue of modesty amongst men and women. It's not designed to penalize women or men. It's not saying that if a woman is uncovered that she deserves to be accosted physically, no, it's mainly saying that and it isn't even if a woman is even naked, she did deserve to be raped. Of course, we will, we will agree with this. However, what it does say is that we know what we're all humans, right? And it's not healthy environment, when we're agitating each other sexually in public all the time. You know, if a man acts if a man, let's say
exposing himself, indecently to a woman, obviously, with sexual harassment, you can go to jail. But we don't consider that the way some women dress in summertime can be also by the same law most sexually harassing two men.
Okay, do you not think that if we reduce people to their base natures, that you're actually saying that you're an animal and like men and women, and neither of you are actual actually capable of like, logical thought? Like, not every Bible I see in shorts of like, all those are fine pair knees like, I'm logical. I'm, you know, I don't objectify. So I think like, if you're saying that, if you're tempting people, I think that's reducing humans to almost base animals and base creatures, and implying that actually, your base instinct is to a costs actually, which I don't think it is. I think that's actually kind of rude to both men and women to say, I didn't make that connection.
Actually. I only said it's sexual harassment. I didn't say it will make you great. That person you must say, if you see if I didn't say that. I said it's sexual harassment. Because I don't have a switch in my head to say, I do not find this women attractive. I will not become a sexual not heterosexual. I guess I don't have that. Right. It is a it is not a no one says, I have decided intellectually to fancy this person. It doesn't work like that. We are creatures, but at the same time, we are aims to prevent people from being reduced to base objects. That's the whole point a woman and a man dressed modestly, you can't see their sexual base sight. Then you see the human in
an intellectual Southern face the expressions and you only direct them based on the content of their mind, not the content of their presents. So I would say that it's not actually aimed to elevate minds.
Above the very base base viewpoint, that sexual objectification happens. sexual education is not known to happen historically, in some societies is not happening historically, it isn't happening now in the current Western societies, again, of which feminists themselves complain about and have issues. And that's, that is really, I suppose, the end of my presentation. And I think I wanted to kind of highlight and underline here is that the summit perspective comes from a point whereby both genders are complimentary to each other, not in opposition, subjugation, or competition. Thank you.
I'd like to sincerely thank Mr. andalusi for his fine speech, and I call her Rebecca McKinney prior to open Annnd give the case for the opposition here, here.
Okay, I'm going to start by saying that I have here at the request of the Law Society, I'm slightly playing devil's advocate, because I don't 100% believe that all of Islam in general, actually swim and body. And I'm also not going to stand here and claim to be an expert on it. Because I'm obviously not. And I'm a Christian. So I guess I'm coming at this from my limited knowledge of Islam, the research that I have done today on it kind of agenda, we have some other debates with ISOC as well. And I suppose I'm coming at it from a way in which as long as perceived by people at the West, and I'm not going to stand here and say that Islam was sexist to women. There are issues I
have with this lab that I've looked for look, and hopefully, I respect the way that will be offensive to anyone. And if I do if I do, I apologize in advance, and I have ignorance to blame for that. And so
Okay, let me two seconds.
Okay, so the boys are going to be bringing you are basically the reason I think that Islam is treated badly or wrong is because I think that most religions actually treat women bargainer. Ah, so I've got a couple of things from a kind of Christianity, because I'm a Catholic. So I'm coming at this from the way that Islam and Christianity potentially subjugate women or associated with my opinion, and then I'm going to work in SoCal bowtell. Also, some of the perception of Islam versus the reality of Islam or Islamic theory versus Islamic practice, I would actually agree
with and learn colleague care in saying that Islam in theory, and was actually the religion before Christianity, or before the West actually gave rights to women, and women previously didn't have because if you look at Roman times, women were seen as objects, they were seen as no better than slaves or children. So I do think that while Islam in its formation did give rights to women and didn't afford more whites, women that they previously had, I think that Islam has somewhat become,
they haven't really progressed as much as the West has. And so I'm gonna lead on with the motivations for him and Bobby are wrong. So many religions, both in their extreme on their modern forms treat women as second class citizens. Worse, women are forced to live voiceless and are subject to violence and oppression. An example of this being mercy killings, as well as domestic and sexual violence, which happens all over the world. I'm not attributing this to any one religion, at best. And the way you're second class citizens is blatant sexism, were excluded from positions of power within religions, and also equal status, and that's within many different religions and
denominations.
These can be taken, we can throw passages back from the crowd in the Bible, and because they're open to interpretation, they can be interpreted different ways. But right here, just the postures I find that actually are quite similar for both the Bible and the Quran, they kind of show how in their text, women are seen as second class citizens, and are subjugated by their male counterparts. So from Ephesians in the Bible, why is that make yourself onto your husbands as unto the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife and assembly in the Quran, to the male equivalent of two female which is of course in the area of inheritance, and also from the Quran, the notion of female
sexuality is also held to be a negative and punishable thing, in my opinion, from what I've read. So the quote is, apologies as for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness call to witness for four of you against them. And if they testify, even if they admit to what they've done, then confine confine them to the houses until to agitate them. Some of these passages from the Quran on the Bible would show that women are weaker, it's easy to be weaker, obviously on feminists, other victims, but the procedure is weaker, and they're perceived to be lesser than men. And I mean, even if you look at Christianity, the way that it has treated women even in our own country, the modular laundries,
it's just atrocious. And I think that this is
Something that is actually unfortunately endemic to all of the religions. And so I guess my basis for this is because I think all unlike unpack the Catholic but I don't agree with the way that the Christian church she treats women. And I also think that certain, particularly certain parts of Islam, mostly Wahhabi Islam treats women differently than how the Quran said they should be laid out. And today when I was researching this, I actually came across, I read loads of really fantastic articles and blogs about like feminism and Islam, which was actually really fascinating because I knew very little about it before. And yeah, so I was just the reason why online, I think that women
are naturally as well as Islam. Quite a con is because there is no single authoritative understanding of the Quran or any of the other religious texts from Islam. This is always open to interpretive process, which means that people who are more fundamental are more and I suppose conservative views towards women, they can always find a passage to support their views, and it feeds off same with christian fundamentalists and christian conservatives. So um, the reason I was there's a project called sisters in Islam, it's actually a Malaysian organization. It's really fantastic. I think the work they do is really great. I'm possibly, you know, basically are critical.
And, but I was reading a lot about what they do. And even that the way that they try to get rights for women, is that they have to go out and find somebody to give them a really, really progressive, like interpretation of the Quran. So they can say to women, okay, look, you don't have to accept beatings, which is actually the woman who started off. And I probably go into this relate today. The Nia Anwar, I think, possibly, yeah, Baba fertilization, she actually said that a lot of women that she wants to talk to and grow Malaysia actually believe because of what they had heard, that oppression was justified by their Islamic teachings on their own. You know, if you read the Quran,
it says that it's okay for a man to beat his wife, and which is dying. Basically, I think that the patriarchy in Islam is not necessarily directed by the Quran, it's actually by traditionally male scholars of Islam, and their interpretation of it, they interpreted to subjugate women. And while I think that in theory, Islam has the possibility, not to subjugate women, unfortunately, I think that in practice, it's not hasn't really moved on as much as the West,
or West has apology. And yeah, so like I said earlier, and what in the crown, for example, an entire chapter is dedicated to women, which I think is actually it's more much more than the Bible contain for women. And so, I think that while it is there, in theory, I think that in practice, it's just not upheld. And I think that actually what I learned, it's a bastardization of Islam, which has led to women being subjugated. But unfortunately, projects like sisters and Amazon do not get enough support from the white stream Muslim community to actually garner support in other countries. Like I know people hate using Saudi as an example because it is Wahhabi Islam and it's not real Islam. Like
the fact that women can't drive there, the fact that they're just like, very, very blatantly within the law not held of equal citizens. I think that while that might be a misinterpretation or a bastardization of Islam, mainstream is on communities, unlike the more moderate Muslims do not come out and say, Look at this fantastic project in Malaysia, why don't we bring this in here? And the only reason it works in Malaysia is because Malaysia is not a theocratic state like Saudi, it's actually a pluralist democracy. While Islam is the state religion, it's not always the religion of the same Sorry, it's not as if you can have other religions that Malaysia for information, yeah, in
Iran, and in Sudan, and Egypt and every other Muslim country, women can drive and Saudi doesn't say women contract because they're deficient. It says that there are security concerns, security concerns due to the instability of the Saudi kingdom. So it's not like nothing, nothing, nothing to do with women's and fear. And all that and other Islamic regimes or quote unquote, theocracies don't prevent women from dropping out to whatsoever. Yeah, I agree with you there. And I think safety in general is a week. For me it's a weak argument to take, because it's not directly, I suppose, representative of all of Islam, which I have already conceded in my points. One of the things I
think about Islamic was in your speech, and in bash, and Python, well, I actually disagree with the fact that rights and obligations someone asked you, and that there's no one answer why because the law students I read a lot about natural law, and the fact that we're given rights because we're a human being, not because somebody owes something to us. And so that's just a little bit of rebuttal that I'm sure we can just go softer, but and in relation to a woman's role, and as on how you were saying that, you know, we're remembered for the family member for and by the family that we have, not by what we do, and I love children, but I'm not particularly sure that motherhood is for me. And
I like to think that my place is not dictated by the children that I have or the person that are married. I like to think that I actually believe that that might be that we all die I would like to go ahead and change those. And and I think that is
Because it is so centered on the family. And again, it's what's in our Christianity, and that it definitely says that like a woman faces his mother and like you said, like a mother is held three times above the father. I actually don't think that's fair either. subjective quality perspective, I think that it imposes unfair societal gender roles on people which actually are harmful to both people. Because if you have a mind who would actually love to stay at home with his children and raise them, that's not really accepted in society in general, I actually think that sort of more conservative is, is actually nothing more than a conservative view of a sorry, a conservative
representation of societal views. I mean, I agree with some of your points on the west completely. And apart in terms of the beauty industry on side, one of your other boys. Oh, the whole sexual harassment thing, I actually think it's quite demeaning to say that someone wearing a short skirt is a sexually harassing was being groped in a Michael, I'm having been on the receiving end of the latter. And slightly, I didn't say growth, though. But I didn't talk about sexual harassment. Man exposing himself is equal to a woman exposing himself something sexual harassment employees, or unwanted behavior just because I wear shorts.
So assault, sexual,
feminism and Islam. And from what I was reading earlier, it was actually really interesting. In 1979, there was obviously the Iranian Revolution in which Muslim countries began to gain more independence. And so this also coincided with the UN, recent siedle, which is the Convention on the Elimination of All discrimination against women. And the reason why I suppose that I think that is I'm having developed women's rights as fully as the West. And I'm not saying the West is perfect, because it's not. And it's because a lot of, I suppose a lot of this is from what I've read, a lot of women saw feminism as being a direct contention with the religion. And actually, I was reading
online and, and a lot of Muslim women actually left their faith or abandon their faith because they thought it wasn't compatible with their feminism. For me, that's the problem. And there are certain parts of my own experience of the Catholic Church's teaching, but I don't agree with already direct, and I suppose antagonistically, directly antagonistic to my feminism, but I wouldn't leave my religion over. And the reason that I think, as well about the beauty industry, and I think to presume that anyone who goes Ah, and I might be reading into speech too much, but this is actually relating to another debate that we've had here. Like, I quite like wearing makeup, I wear it for
myself, I don't wear it for men, and I quite liked the idea of looking lies, and I do it for me, because it actually helps with my self confidence. And it's not because I'm not confident, but if you're having a really bad skin day, it's really nice to put makeup on. And and that's not because I feel like the media has led me to believe that that's what beauty is. It's more that's what I do for me, and I don't do it for anyone else. And I think to presume that that's something that we force our women is actually to say to women, or you don't know your mind, and which I think everyone in this room most likely does especially think of God. And so I suppose the conclusion, I don't think
that Islam is terrible. I don't, obviously there are certain fractions of Islam, which treat women badly. Wahhabi Islam and Saudi in general, they're just terrible places.
To say the same about Christianity, you can say the same in like certain states in America where I'm sorry.
You can say the same but Christianity that some of the more conservative right wingers in America, for example, think that a woman's place is in the home and that she just shouldn't be equal to a man. So I guess I'm coming at this from a very, very educated today. I'm very open to questions.
I'd like to thank Rebecca for her pull on astrology again to give his rebuttal. You're here.
Well, that was fun.
Right? Well, let's get straight into it. Tommy short, natural law natural law it exists well, Jeremy Bentham says natural law is nonsense on stilts. That's why they develop utilitarianism to try to find another basis for morality for morality. You go into desert island with natural predators, lions, tigers, and bears, oh, my and you and you expect them to respect your natural rights they want it doesn't exist. They only exist in the human mind and exist in the human mind and how does it manifest itself by people actually having a duty to respect your rights, so all rights are based on duties, not the universe handing it to you on a silver platter.
She said that women are constricted by roles to say they must only be mothers. I never said that. I said that when it comes to gender, both genders in capacity of being
Being of age, gender is related to their reproductive role. It is related to the family, and then say in the capacity of being humans, as I said the prophets wife solemn, was a businesswoman. Women in Islam historically, they were soldiers, Islamic scholars, and even street judges not like Judge Dredd, but they were street judges, we had the concept of street judge. So we have that. So basically, what Islam does all it all it really does is it says that the starting point is to look at the natural roles for men and women in relation to their agenda and not relations that being human. And then the exceptions resolve themselves. So if a woman gets married to a husband, and she
is the more dominant one, then she'll she de facto be the head of the household. If she wants to go out work working and her husband doesn't like it, well, then they might get divorced. Or they argue as is happening in western relationships. But if the man is recessive, he'll accept it and he may be stay at home, we sometimes get involved, as to how people want to want to deal with that exceptions, resolved themselves. The starting point is do not push expectations that the woman has to be a best best mother, the best housewife and the best, queer, queer woman that she has to have it all and ends up having to do it all at the same time. That's all Islam says. In terms of what about how many
women are suffering domestic abuse and killings? Well, if you look at if you look at what's happened in the world, more men die due to violence wars, and so and, and even cancer rates, then women do in a variety of things. That what about, feminists don't discuss the suicide rate gap that men commit more to, and more likely to commit suicide, more likely to go in and actually attempt suicide than men but because of the ways in which women attempt suicide, so you're saying that women are are inferior are inferior to commit suicide?
Right? I'll continue.
There's the men are more likely to die on the job, they have a less life expectancy, they're, they're more going to be more subject more like to be subject to violent crime, and cancer research is disproportionately less applied to men on dental women. What about there are in England, there are only 16 mil of domestic abuse refuges compared to 7500 female domestic abuse even though there are actually much larger figures for males on domestic abuse, but no one cares about that men are expected to fend for themselves. There are a lot of inequality is now caused by feminist movement, which really, in my opinion, anyway, respectfully is really gender, sectarianism. Any movement,
which only wants to argue for one side and not for all sides to have this equality is going to be for privilege, it is going to be for sectarianism. And this is why Islam prefers a holistic approach as dealing with humans, not just one or the other, you want to just be Universalist. So So rather than just being fair feminists,
in terms of other points, you said yes. So in terms of other points you said she said that the Quran is open to the festival I think I would like to thank you for agreeing with the proposition of this house that Islam does treat women right and that in its from its in its formation to to its to its text, it says that but she talked about now Muslims well you know, what if I want to judge people based on how some people have a sudden identity group act, then that's going to be a world where we're going to collect we punish each other for for everything this is very bad, we should act we should judge each other based on what the belief says it's the title today is not does Muslims do
Muslims treat women right? Or do Christians treat women white or do atheists treat women right to the west treat women right or whatever it's does Islam as an idea as a spiritual teaching, treat women right there is no difference of interpretations on these things you'll find in the Muslim world there is a struggle to actually have a stomach Renaissance and against secular regimes in the Muslim world and against a secular way of thinking in Egypt before Lord Chroma as the feminists have known about this little Chroma the British colonialists and and in being Irish, you know, what about British colonialism unfortunately, how to improve things. The gold Chroma went to Egypt and he
sacked women from being female doctors and women could no longer attended property after marriage. Women lost rights when Britain Britain came because he equalized to Britain, British to British law at the time. So we actually were affected by this. The Muslim world is now operating off of a kind of Victorian era understanding of male female roles. And that's thanks, colonialism, nothing to do with Islam. She's when she brought the Bible. What today's motion is that Islam maybe next week's motion can be does Christianity treat women right? And you can defend that or not? As for the issue of all inheritance, or how is it that men only get half the inheritance of females? I think it
should be obvious to you now men are expected to be the breadwinners. The woman doesn't have to send spend a single penny on herself or her children. In the marriage The man is obligated in Islam and expected
To provide for the family. So obviously, he has to be given somewhat more inheritance to achieve that, as for the issue of four witnesses, judgment against, when guilty of lewdness of guilty of adultery, should be confined to a home. Yes, because the male if a male was guilty of lewdness, which which needs for witnesses, it will be capital punishment. So I think woman that she gets a better than the man. Now, this is not about Sharia today, it's not about the Sharia law and capital punishment, whatever your issue is about that it's about how women are treated. And even in that situation, men, women are treated better than men. As for the issue of
wife beating, and so on, as well, some refer reference to the crying about right wife beating in the car, it doesn't say that you should go and beat your wife, what it says in the Quran. And what it says also in the studies that do not beat your wives. And when some people who were dealing with wives wives were breaking the law, unlike, unlike, unlike for women bringing their husbands to court and the court can subject her husband to corporal punishment for not fulfilling for rebelling and not fulfilling his role as a husband. In Islam. We didn't want to see women dragged him to Islamic Courts and corporately punished in public. So it was at the discretion of the husband, subject to
limits subject to restrictions. And if he went over those restrictions, he can be punished by the law court system. So in essence, Islam doesn't get involved in terms of what people do in their own homes. But if he steps over the limits and abuses his wife, then he can, he will go to court and he can be properly punished. Again, that's something else. So women again, have it better. They're not dragging the public and subject of public humiliation by public punishment. As to the issue of she said that, you know, just because a woman wearing a short skirt is not equivalent to groping, as I mentioned before, from the from the bench, I didn't talk about groping, groping is assault. It's not
harassment, not harassment, because I'm Grubbs you you are assaulted. Sexual I'm all I'm saying is the issue of saying I believe in equality on this. If a woman wears revealing clothing, this is equal to a man wearing something revealing waxing and revealing manner equal equal equality between the genders. If one doesn't wrong, don't assign the wrong and you should hold them both to the same measure. Unfortunately, feminism castigates the male and allows the female privilege which ends up being gender sectarianism ends up being privileged. As for the issue of Apostasy, that some women are politicizing because they can't reconcile feminism with Islam, what they chose feminism is, it
can't be reconciled. Islam believes in more universal treatment towards humans, it doesn't believe in some special gender sectarian is or gender privilege, as feminism believes in, it's not individualistic, and of course, they would be a natural clash between the two. If they want to pick feminism, then they pick feminism if they want to pick Islam, they pick Islam. Why should we try to change Islam to fit some people's conveniences and we call this hypocrisy, right, or insincerity. If you want to be sincere, you you embrace something for what it is like me, if I couldn't get into relationship with someone and say, You know what, I'll leave you unless you change yourself. What
would you say? What would you say you haven't accepted that person for who they are. So you have to accept Islam for what it is. And also, we must change it. And lastly, and I think this highlights the highlights point I'm saying
the lady here mentioned that she wears makeup for herself. And this is a very common argument we hear from feminists that Oh, when I look beautiful, and go out to make sure that my dress is right. And so and so when I go, I do it for myself. Well see, the thing is that if they were stuck on a desert island with no hope of ever seeing society again, they wouldn't wear makeup to make themselves feel better. They would. Well, but as I said, the issue is that why you if it's about yourself, why are you concerned about your physical looks? Right? Who sees your physical looks right? When there was no mirrors? Then Then how would it How would your physical looks affects you?
it's to do with what you look like to other people. Ultimately, on some point, a waveform is so engrained into women, that your physical looks affect your competence, that we have this kind of statement, which only reinforces the Islamic point that women should not be judged by their looks, or women should not be forced to wear something to make themselves feel better about themselves. Women are fine just the way they are.
Okay, so much.
Okay,
where to start? Okay. I think it's patronizing that you're telling me that I do it for something else. Even though I'm fully confident that I guess myself, I could take a makeup to make a batch desert island wouldn't be my first priority, but I probably take it. I think that you have a very narrow view of feminism. And there's
a buzzword around feminism for the last while is intersectionality. And it's to do with the fact that it's not just gender that oppresses somebody, it can be other factors such as your class where you're from. And I don't think that feminism is just about women. And I wouldn't be involved with feminism, if I just thought about women. And I do agree with some of your
comments by, for example, male male suicide rates are higher, and attempts are higher in women, but successful male suicide is higher than successes, you must set aside about something that does need to be tackled. And I think that's I, I also think it's very, it boiled my blood slightly, that you were complaining about the fact that there were less domestic violence, met people that were men than women, when statistically if you look at it, women are more of a victim sorry, 96% of perpetrators of sexual and domestic violence are men by themselves, only 2% of perpetrators of sexual domestic violence, this is violent, or women. The other 2% if my math is correct, is when
it's more than one party acting. So I actually think that's got really nothing to do with the debate. So I'm just gonna, I'll take you in a second, I'm actually going to move on from that. And feminism is not about sectarianism, as someone who was from Northern Ireland. And yes, I'm going to bring this into play, I know exactly what sectarianism is about and to compare feminism to sectarianism. It's not only offensive to every single feminist in the room, it's I'm personally I find it really offensive. In general, I'm feminism is not about putting men down on women being better. It's about equality for all in every sphere of life, and maybe other things I had. Oh, yeah.
So we're saying that I did agree with you slightly. And I did concede that, in theory, I don't think Islam has made the subjugation of women. But I think that any movement is defined by the people in it. It's not just about theory, it's about practice. And also with regard to religion changing, I think religion should always adapt to the times that they change and and the people that are in them. It's not like this was a Westerner saying Islam should change. These are actually Muslim women saying, I'm not sure what to do with my political beliefs. And my religion, I think there's an inherent problem, if you're forced to choose from your religion and your politics, as I see them as
entirely separate things. I'm religious, I'm a political, I would never let one influence the other. And I also think that when you said, women are forced to have it all, there's nothing wrong with wanting to have it all I wanted. And when I don't think that's a bad thing, I would like to have a career in which I make the world a better place and also feel fulfilled as a person. I think that actually everyone having it all is something isn't ideal that I aim for, and I don't think that's a negative thing. And I also in terms of religions, and changing and you said that, you know, why should we change Islam? I mean, people say said the same thing about Catholicism. That's why we had
Vatican two. And that's why we're looking at things in the church, because no, religion is perfect. And in my opinion, I just think that I've gotten slightly more defensive this time around, but I was at my first speech, and also, going back to the sexual harassment thing. I think, honestly, if you're presuming that someone's like, a symbol wearing a short skirt, that is not akin to sexual harassment, it's not came to sexual harassment in the law. And it's not a claim to sexual harassment, in reality, it's just not. And I think that actually diminishes and victims of sexual harassment. And I think that to presume that our base nature is like, is is to be sexually harassed,
and that by wearing a short skirt, my I shouldn't Hang on, just give me two seconds, that when I'm wearing a short skirt, it's, oh, we should worry about the mind who's going to be sexually harassed, or if a woman's wearing or if a man's wearing shorts t shirt, but Oh, the woman who's going to feel sexually aroused? I just don't by that point. And I don't feel like you've proved that after came to sexual harassment, in my opinion, in terms of
feminism and Islam. The only reason it's worked in Malaysia is because
Malaysia has a robust middle class in which women are actually pretty active in the workforce. And that's an A recent poll by Gallup there, they do worldwide surveys and over 137 countries have been actually shows that rates of fright female participation in the labor force in Arab countries are some of the lowest in the world. And like, that's a problem for me. Because in Western societies, I'm not saying there's anything to the legend, women do take a more active role in the workforce. Um, I think that by saying, I don't think gender roles are good for either male, male or female, or those who don't fall in between. And also I think that's something that Islam I'm most versions To
be honest, ignore the fact that there are certain people who don't fit binary measures, like I don't really fit and the like, good meek little
girl that I guess some people might want me to be. I'm I'm not saying that Islam, I'm saying that's probably society in general, women are seen as be
sorry,
Nancy, I don't buy that. I think that's a cheap, that's a cheaper tours to my argument. And I think they say exceptions resolve themselves. Like they don't like that. You can't say for every exception. Oh, sure. That'd be fine. Let's put them in a corner. They're an exception. I just don't buy that argument. And I have some more about those that we just find it.
Oh, yeah. In terms of like med men as breadwinner like I think that's unfair obligation on men as to women, I think to say to a man, you
Always have to be strong and to a woman you always have to be weak is actually unfair on both, which is just then again proving that feminism is not just about the men, and I am a gender equality officer. I'm not just a feminist officer. And and it just I say in the Quran also I correct me if I'm wrong. I was actually passed this on by a friend of mine, the testimony of one miners were thought of two women. Am I incorrect in saying that the Quran says that?
Okay, also in terms of Sharia, which I know we've kind of stayed away from and Sharia law cases, particularly in family law, and women have actually been treated very badly and marginalized by Sharia law cases. And which is why in Malaysia at the minute, they're actually looking to kind of reject the laws in favor of being more balanced and being more equal towards women. And let me see.
Oh, yeah, so in terms of like, I don't think that Islam and its very nature is a patriarchal or sexist. I think that it's actually an interpretation of Islam, which unfortunately, has been propagated by male scholars, because let's be honest, I'm everyone. Generally, back when relate these religions are founded were men, the scholars were men, because women were not educated. And that goes for every religion, obviously, not just Islam. And so I think that there is the patriarchy under running. Yeah.
You're saying that men can't be objective either religion? Know what the what base point of my
religion? No, but you're obviously only getting considering women, Michael 52% of the world's population to take only the opinion of 48% is not very equal. And considering we're all about equality today,
not put to the same amount of man or two equal to proportionate to the population. I don't think so. What was women's choices?
Okay, this is that's a whole other argument I have. So we can we can we can discuss the job market, even in the West in the job market, women tend to choose a family over
so many career. Well, I think I think that's slightly skewing off topic. And that's a debate you like, and I would actually be delighted to have that debate with you afterwards.
In terms of Islam, I don't think it's almost every religion. I've said this before. There are actually things about Islam. I really like I think the five pillars are fantastic. The charity nature of Islam is fantastic. Do I think that it still has places to go in terms of women liberation? Definitely. Do I still do I think the Christianity and other world religions have places to go in terms of women, women's liberation, definitely. Do I support the motion, but the Hayes motion that Islam treats does not treat women? Well? I do and I don't I my vote lined? Why I do and why I don't I think that, in general society has a long way to go and hire treats women and to make
sure that women are equal in every sphere of the science. And unfortunately, Islam is just a contributor towards this towards the progress of getting married. Thank you.
And I'd like to open the floor. And then following that, those remarks.
And if anyone has a remark to make to either speakers, and I was perfect time to do so. Yes,
sir, just to leave us. Sorry, could you speak up just a little bit?
You were talking about?
How
it's a nice concept in practice, but practically it doesn't work. I found a lot of your arguments were also very, like, you know, they're nice ideas. They're nice,
you know, concepts. But practically, I don't see them working at all. I mean, like looking at college, like political life. celebrity. Like, I tell you think there is a lot of
stuff that goes on. Oh, no, I totally agree. I think that like it's not perfect. It's not perfect in any language like or predecessor, but those are your words. The world is not a perfect place for either gentlemen out Unfortunately, the religions contribute to that because they are so slow to change. And they are so slow to either push for because once you have a tradition like to deviate from that is huge. It's a big deal to religions, because they're so based in a different time in a different place. It was like what specifically? Okay, like, for example,
in Ireland,
why?
pressure
pressure out there?
Just beautiful. There's
no like,
in any way to try and diminish the fact that the media has attire, like the beauty industry, in general is not a great place. It's not a great place for women.
And that might come across Ross, but I actually spoke in a debate here like that a month ago, which is that she has a really bad role.
I completely agree with you like, I don't think that the media is perfect. So I think the beauty industry and the standards we hold women to a beauty are unrealistic. So I'd agree with you.
I suppose the debate we always do try and be idealistic. So I like your speech. I like to talk about the world, I'd like it to be and trying to try and juxtapose that with a world, James. That's what I was trying to do with this debate, kind of juxtapose in reality versus because I don't think
okay, yes.
And first of all, what
is the religion
of Mauna Kea think that there? Is anybody out there who practices Islam? And do you think there is such thing as a Muslim who those practices were able to practice? And secondly, when you talk about makeup and fashion in Western society, and I think there are plenty, there's plenty of evidence here that that's not just something in Western society, there are plenty of people here wearing makeup who are Muslims. And even when you look at headcovering sort of style of Muslim clothing, it does have a fashionable element to it, and including the difference for offering from different communities, the colors, I mean, it's not something that nobody wears now.
I also was wondering, and I understand from reading, about patriotism, why people were coping supply people over the quality and very loose clothing, and boys wanting to be not thinking negative addresses, you know, think that it's a good idea that a woman should cover her body actually exercises the female body and actually draws more attention to the the, the to female sexuality to to the female body than would otherwise be the case. And in Western society in particular, if the focus of the reason why a Muslim woman with COVID herself is for modesty or not to draw attention to herself unwanted attention in Western society doesn't actually have the opposite effect and might be
interested in somebody here. I'd like to stop you there and let him
pretty quickly because it is living
in a Western society, it is a female Muslim, more likely to be said that he is cooperate or she cannot procreate. And and also when you talk about independent women, this is no this is the dead. Last one. We talked.
We talked about that women shouldn't be told they have to have everything. Why then so often is Khadija held up because she had everything because she was a wealthy, independent woman. It was not something you're supposed to end in
reverse order that shopping list
isn't praised because she was a merchant, she prayed because she was virtuous. She stood by the exercise and helped him cope with moral fortitude. And then when he needed help in his time to trial, we bring her up to counter the myth that Islam is against women work and that's the only we only bring up because, you know, people some folks bring up that women got well they say, Well, here's an example we don't say she must be praised because she was a math novel. She was only a mother or she was a merchant makes no difference. She her virtue and Islam we judge humans by virtue, we don't judge them by their job title. In terms of the issue of the women's covering the
fetishized,
Speak for yourself.
Unfortunately, I think maybe stems from a Western kind of almost orientalist, look, the exotic foreign woman and what what what hidden mysteries must you have? I don't want to go there.
I can assure you, I can assure you that basically in, in a society for hundreds and hundreds of years, and in traditional societies, even in Christian societies where they were modest to Victorian era and beforehand, there wasn't that kind of fantasizing of women. It's very modern. When people look at you know, * magazines and *, so I've heard
they don't say Oh, look at that copy on that go or look at the head cable. No, they see naked women, right? Women are criticized in their nakedness in *. That's how the * industry sells. And the the foreign woman is held up to be an exotic customer, someone use their imaginations imagine that what they saw in some kind of movie about a woman must be what every woman has. So I think that's very Eurocentric. As for the issue of why is it that in many other societies outside the West, people are interested in fashion, even makeup and so on? Well, that's globalization. That's colonization. That's a whole number of factors. With what everyone wears a suit, the same kind of
suit every country go. I bet 100 years ago when a man was wearing a suit and tie
where you went in the book? So this is globalization and colonization, but to actually answer your point about Muslims versus Islam, very simple is okay, take feminism, right? It's an idea. There is no book called This is the definitive doctrine of feminism, right? Even people feminists might disagree with me pancoast Tina and they still are feminists feminist you can be mocked for the kinds of feminists that there are right, who defines them is a feminist Islam is based around the book of the Quran, which is revelation of God. And by the concerns of the Prophet Mohammed Salah, this is a you could say a conceptual lighthouse that we guide ourselves by is fixed in a fixed position for us
to navigate. That's why you judge Islam by what it teaches, and not how Muslims act, I would say that if you look, if you look, even during the during the Ottoman era, Ottoman Caliphate was an Islamic State, Western Western women will go into this documents, they are amazed at how much rights women had a better rights than in Europe. So that's that's kind of, you know, a example of Islam being applied. Right now, you'll see revolutions and fighting going on as to the nature of the state and currently the state, the states that oppress women, the state's women don't have much of a voice. They are secular states running on from from some post colonial Victorian hymn sheet. And
we're trying to deal with that and to actually establish Islam and create Islamic States by which women can be liberated. So thank you.
Questions or remarks and speakers? Yes, good. composition, I have a very simple question I'd like you to find, and I'd like your definition of harassment. And what's your definition of assaulted simply? Sure. Well, I think the issue of initial harassment, okay, I can only speak for for English law, but from what I know from English law, is that I mean sexual harassment is is that you can sexually harass someone even if it's unintentional. I never said it's actually wrong. I mean, as harassment,
assault,
sexual assault, okay, well, for Seoul, Germany, means physical. And harassment basically means non physical aspects that people do. That's the point, non physical aspects. And I can't speak for the Irish law, or I can't speak for UK laws. What I know is that in UK law, basically, if you create an intimidating or offensive environment, even if it's unintentional, to a woman, a man can be done for sexual harassment. Right now, if you were to just apply that term and is not outside the realm of legal interpretation to apply that term to other gender, that would also fulfill the criteria of sexual harassment in UK. I don't know about Irish. Well, maybe it's different. But that's the issue.
I think, a point once a point that links to what she said before, which is that
it is human I she implied that I said that humans are by nature will want to sexually harass each other. I did say that she's been spending a lot of stuff I've been saying today. Humans don't want
to get
Oh, no, no, you're saying that I'm saying?
You're saying that basically, my, my opponent, I believe anyway, she's found some simple mysteries, and some things I've been saying. Humans don't want to work on one book I want to impress upon today, you know, got to catch them all know.
People don't even think like that, right. What they do is that they're some people use a method of flotation are methods to try to attract themselves. They use sexually aggressive overtones. And it can be ones which are speaking to people, it can be how you act, it could be how you approach them. And as I said, both men and women do this, but men are the ones who get convicted of sexual harassment more than women do, if any, right and so either either women are angels, or
demons or demons, or they're both human, but the laws covered by feminism treats one side, on the other side, it gives privilege.
I was just gonna say, I don't think somebody were showing their BS in any course of the law, by law degree, which constitute harassment. That's really all I had to say, based on my studies of criminal law, or legal jurisdictions.
And again, I find the comparison incredibly insulting.
Okay, all right. And Does anybody else have a remark to make to either the speakers?
Okay.
Is
everything okay?
I don't think that Islam is a religion, that subjugates women solely by itself, do you think that religions in general subjugate women? Yes. So do I think therefore, that Islam is a religion is is
religion that subjugates women, potentially and sometimes it does. I don't think that can be said of every religion as though I think for anyone to stand up and say that no religion is included subjugates or treats women badly in every single circumstance is is a false pretense that is a false argument. In terms of like, where I went with my debate, it was slightly all over the place, because my opinions on this issue are slightly all over the place, because I am coming up a place with loss, and not as much information. I am purely because I I'm not, I'm not Muslim. And I do think those are some of the points that have been made on this side of the house. And
I just not the reality. I mean, like, people are, like you said, My feminism things are shaped by the people who create it. I think that to say that we take Islam as what should be not how it is, in theory, it's just it's just a false argument. I think it's a weak argument, I don't think it holds up too much scrutiny. Like because there is no single authority authoritative, or the subject of the Quran and Hadith, there is no edge to the interpretive process. Therefore, you cannot say that every Muslim believes this, therefore, you cannot say that every Muslim is strictly following Islam. Therefore, you cannot say that every single person in Islam or that Islamic General, does not
subjugate women or treat everyone badly. that supports both sides of the house that supports my side of the house where I'm saying that I can potentially treatment badly. And it supports your side of the house by saying that not all of us are treated badly. So it's kind of a win win. And in terms of like, where I think that Islam in particular, why it's different from say, for the religions, what I suppose be the fact that
Islam in general, from my understanding is different to other religions, it's different in that it actually requires more of a person that other religions do, it requires you to give more of yourself, and it requires Islamic influences more of your life. And I think that that is dangerous in any movement or any religion, because I think that, in my personal opinion, I don't tie my identity to Catholicism, whereas a lot of my friends who are Islamic would, they would identify as Muslim and Muslim women. And I think that when you hold one area of your life above all others, I think that could be potentially dangerous, and can lead to the potential subjugation of women. And
in terms of closing remarks, I suppose, because this has gone on for quite some time. I don't really have anything else. I would love some questions or some points information if anyone has them. Because like I said, I'm open to correction, I'm open to people throwing things at me that maybe I don't know. And so if anyone has any of those things, otherwise, I'm just going to finish off by saying, I believe that Islam
can treat women right. But I don't believe that it always does. And I suppose that there's any questions or comments.
I'll go into my research for today. But that's not necessarily true.
majority are speech nothing beneficial for to do more research. Oh, definitely.
needs to modernize. So, in my opinion, yeah. All of us here, we've all been taught to live by a profit.
We don't need to modernize people have to understand Islam, we need to change. people's perception of Islam has to change.
Well, yes, I suppose that kind of links back into my point, whereas because Islam is based on interpretation, the interpretation of the Quran needs to change. That's what I'm sorry that I was probably unclear. That's what I meant. While I said that the reason that, for example, sisters in Islam is working in Malaysia, because it's, it's working within the confines tags around where it will go was confines the confines of the Quran, because they're how they're using more, I suppose, liberal interpretations of the Quran so but like a fat laugh that changing Islam because I like my point was that Islam is what the people make it. So if you change an interpretation of Islam, in my
opinion, that would be changing Islam. I when I say that I say, Oh, you did my research today. That's not entirely true. But I didn't want I thought it would be self serving of myself to stand up here and pretend to be an expert on something which I'm clearly not. I thought that would be disrespectful to people here and would just make me look like a bit of an idiot. And I actually like to think that I like no more than like the average Westerner. I'm not saying I do. I like to think that I do potentially, because I have friends from very diverse backgrounds. I'm not saying that's the truth. That's what I like to think. But in terms of like, say that Islam should change. Would
you change the interpretation of something does that not that in its nature change itself? Is my question to you? I guess. Yeah.
interpretation. The interpretation depends on your perspective, because we can interpret things differently and not just to do with Islam or to do with any religion or even political views and definitely how the media can show things as well. So I think it's not the first argument but in terms of things
The only reason that sisters that has not worked in Malaysia is because they had a well educated female workforce. So they were coming from a place where they could actually say, Okay, let me look at this. And let me say, Okay, let's see if there's more liberal interpretation out there. It was actually, the reason that they went to got a more liberal interpretation was women were taking their husbands to Sharia courts, and they were trying to win the cases, obviously, that's the only point to look at a law case. And they had to go off and find I actually have the name of the Lord here, I've not been able to pronounce that. So she went off, to set it off and find a more liberal
interpretation of something like everything is obviously an open to interpretation. But I feel like you can't fully interpret something if you're not coming with all the knowledge. So if you have a well educated, middle class, if you have well educated middle class women, they're in a much better position to interpret things, because they're more educated, have seen views from other countries have seen how the current office operates in other countries, or shourie operates in other countries. So I kind of
have not responded to your point is like, I think that the only reason this works is because they interpreted it differently. So the way that I brought this to the debate was in order for women's rights to progress, even Sharia courts, so even within the confines of Islam, is to have a more liberal interpretation of the Quran, which is all say, within Islam, so it was actually at a lesser Islamic scholar, when she went to find a more liberal interpretation to suit Muslim women. It had to further the cause was the women within Sharia courts, it wasn't even a common law court, it was within Sharia courts. So I think that it changing interpretation for the benefit of women is
probably a good thing. So nothing needs to be construed to change what is actually written down. And the goal was,
well, that's why you leave it to Islamic scholars or not Westerners, which was done in this case, because that these are people who know the Quran, who have a good grounding in Islam. And if you leave it open to their interpretation as Westerners, because obviously, I don't know as much about the Quran as somebody who's been raised with the Quran, and I never will. But if you have Muslim scholars, Muslim, Islamic scholars, Islamic lawyers, they're going to be able to interpret it in different ways. I suppose that's the difficulty with the graph, because like I said, there is no authoritative force like this is 100%. What it is because it is open to interpretation. So I think
that's it.
Well, we've heard some very interesting discourses and some very interesting questions today. I think we've, we've touched on too many topics that we can fully cover today, such as feminism, and I'm sure maybe you should invite the men's rights activist groups in western organizations who have a thing to do, or two to say about the kind of gender sectarianism that feminism has caused. They're not Muslim, they are non Muslims who have making these points. Now, I mean, Okay, I won't go into much intellectual feminism. But there are some issues which are being ignored and issues are being raised like the Guardian newspaper, which is a UK newspaper, raised a report where we showed that
40% of domestic abuse victims are actually male, a lot of it goes unreported. We see that, you know, Wall Street Journal noted that women tend to pick, do less overtime hours, men do more overtime hours, women choose to choose to do more family oriented positions, and take and take more time out for their families. They make that choice. No, one's coercing them, no one's forcing them. This happens in western country. Now, the point is, why is it that we see feminist demand 40% quota for board members or board members 4% must be, let's say, women, this, irrespective of the merits of let's say, maybe one particular board kit, you know, the best candidates, maybe a percent or men at
that particular time, but no, 4% must be women. That makes us choose the less qualified candidate. In many cases, we will have to choose the lesser qualified candidate, rather than the better qualified candidate, because we're judging on gender, and we're not judging on merit. What I would say so
good, okay, not all feminists. Yeah, sure. No, no, yeah, that's an internal debate between feminists but
very prominent feminist organizations do this, but we hear no discussion as a 4% quota for women on soldiers, prison guards, lumberjacks, miners, bodyguards, or construction workers, you will hear no feminists talk about the man the 40% quota for that. Why is that? Why is it only the executive jobs we see this kind of quota going on? If they really want for equality, it would be quality across the board. Now, these are the kind of evidences I bring just to show that it's not as it's not as simple as the feminists would like to portray. Now she did she did say that. Okay, Islamic theory. Yes, it might treat women right. But her point is religions in general, we're not talking that the motion
today is not do religion in general treat women right?
You know, please bring a Buddhist, Christian, an atheist and so on. And they can walk into a pub perhaps become a joke, but it also can have a debate. And they can, and you can debate them on this issue. I'm only talking about Islam. The the real issue, and I don't want you to be swayed by the issue hit between maybe individualism versus maybe a family orientated. You know, system. Islam is family orientated. It's not individualistic, because humans are individuals, right? We were you were born into a culture into society, you depended on all of humans to teach you your knowledge. If no human teaches you anything according to source, and anyone who studied psychology, he will tell you,
people, children are born in the wild, they never learned language and up to a certain age, they'll never learn it. They need you need all the human beings even give you the very capacity to think, right, you are sort of most of your social products, right? We are social creatures. You know, the worst punishment you can give someone is you put them in solitary confinement, if the individual or I love it, and no one tell me what to do. No, you'd hate it. Even if it's on a desert island, you'd hate it, right? You want we need other we need each other, we affect each other. We depend on each other. Islam just recognizes the humanity behind us. And not and not saying that we are some kind of
disembodied individual. As for she mentioned that Islam needs to modernize we're in a modern system isn't like we need some kind of Islam 2.0 upgraded operating system? Well, I mean, you modernize. First you use democracy, right? Isn't that like 2500 years old, as a system. And yet Islam needs to modernize. See, systems don't change technology changes, you know, but systems don't change how you organize human relationships or system of government doesn't change. So Lydia
really opened our eyes.
One of the previous two generations, they would even say that there has been a change in Ireland, and we had are we Catholic Ireland, their Constitution was written on Catholic grounds. It says, a woman to a woman, economically, a woman is best placed in the home by seeing some change. And what also we are now questioning our Catholic and flubbed beliefs with things such as divorce are fragile, and gay marriage.
Next year on contraception, so we've actually taken our fundamental ideas, and we've actually gone
back to my point earlier, not to have 1.1 main area of our life here, such as religion of what is politics, you know, we need to put these together, we need to put them both into our lives that we can work together so
that we can actually look at our fundamental catch too much.
But that's humans changing their beliefs, not the beliefs, or the other human beings as it creatures changing, systems change if people change their systems, right? If the system itself doesn't need to change, if it's if people retain that system, that technology can change, but to then change it, and technology doesn't change the system that's necessary. So Roman democracy, very similar to the kind of democracy we have in America. Now, even though the Roman Empire was like 100,000 years ago, the systems are just relationships between people how you organize relationships, technology, only change that changes that if people want to change how they relate to each other, due to a change in
their creed or doctrine, that people changing their belief, not the need for systems to change. So my point is that humans are still the same creatures we work 2000 years ago, 3000 years, 5000 years ago, take a baby now, in a time machine, go back, put them in that they'll grow up to be a normal Roman or whatever, and take Roman to baby here, raise them up, they'll be at, you know, a normal, average modern person, whatever, right? Humans don't change, technology changes fundamentally. So Islam does need to change the times it we as Muslims, we just need to develop a technology based industry and an innovation that's really all that really needs to change. That was my point. Now the
thing is, Islam is based on Sagan a book and upon example, the prophet Mohammed sauce on this book regulates us. The prophets example, guides us the reason why Muslim is known as a problem in the Muslim world is because the Muslim world is so far from the example the problem which we have clearly in his, in his traditions, and we as far from the God has ordained. This is why there are Muslim revival movements and Muslim campaigning movies and political movements. Were trying to create an Islamic Society, which Muslim movements notice there is no Islamic state of society, Saudi Arabia is a British imposed monarchy, and then it just became an American backed monarchy. So these
countries are post colonial relics, we want to get rid of them as much as you do. Right. Unfortunately, they keep being backed and supported by various governments around the world, mostly from the northern hemisphere, unfortunately, right? We're trying to deal with that with that I wish people would let us deal with our own governments by ourselves rather than putting new governments on
upon us now as for the issue of Malaysia, now, Malaysia, and in places like Brunei and other places, and Iran, Sudan and many other these Islamic projects, they started, they believed to gradually apply Islam. So we apply some things of Islam and maybe hopefully will bring about an Islamic State gradually. The problem is, Islam doesn't work work, if you just apply a little bit of it, it causes trouble. So if I just say, inheritance only, you know, inheritance, double for men, and I don't assign women the responsibility to look after their families and pay for their children, families that men become, it becomes a privilege, it becomes a privilege. And I would agree with you, it
becomes the proof is wrong. But if an assignment system in place whereby men will then be expected to take responsibility for the family's financial responsibility, then it doesn't become a privilege, it becomes an equaling out. But if you wait, wait, you give the privilege you metric responsibility is equal, the police and your government, they have more powers than you, right, they have more privileges than if you don't say that privileged, because they have equal rights, they have more responsibility than you. So please make them carry a gun, you can't carry a gun, but he has more responsibility, he has to do a job with that gun, you don't have to do a job with that gun.
So the policeman is allowed something extra, but has more responsibility, the policeman is still fundamentally equal to you. In Islam, the same with agendas same between the ruler and the ruling, same between the rich and the poor, you might have those who have more have more obligation upon them to those who don't, or those who don't have that. So this is how Islam preserves equality. What I will say, in conclusion is that it is Islam. As I mentioned, by many references, these these texts I've quoted about how Islam views women fundamentally as equal, as normally taught as men and women only based on their virtue, not their economic productivity, or how much they owe how well fed they
look. This is a non disputed non conventional aspects of Islam, there is no difference of opinion on this matter. In it as Muslims, we debate about a whole number of things. Usually, we disagree about roughly I would say about 5% of Islam we disagree on the rest is 95% we generally agree, we all will pray the same way. We don't have different sacraments, we all basically believe about the obligation of the obligation of a man to his his family, that he can't just neglect his children neglect his wife or insult his wife, we we have this as not controversial, there is no Islamic scholar, even the most backward hillbilly scholar you can find who says that a man can abuse his wife and could do
whatever the * he wants to his wife, you won't find that the problem that we're trying to deal with is that there are people there are Muslims in the Muslim world, who they act on this Victorian era hymn sheet. And they are secular. And they view us backwards. Because we want to implement Islam, it looks like a battle. They look down upon us. And they think that we're we're calling to is something alien to their culture, their nation. They're very nationalistic, these these people, these people are not representing Islam. We could have a name for this and somebody could have jaha we call them ignorant, they are ignorant of Islam. And you'll find no contentious debate amongst
Muslim scholars about what I've said today. What I basically said today, all Muslim scholars agree. And I think both Ladies and gentlemen, I think you've heard that the case that my even opposition admits that in theory, or according to the idea Islam treats women, right. The topic today is does Islam human rights. And I would like to invite you to agree with me and my opposition, that this is indeed the case. Thank you.
Thank you all very much. And I'd like to just say a few thank yous for this, believe it or not my last house debate as auditor of the society. I know, shocker. And but first, I'd like to firstly thank everyone from the Islamic Society and everyone who came out tonight, even if you come to the debates regularly, or if this is one of the first device you've come to, you're always more than welcome. We'd like to have you as sincere thanks to the Islamic Society. It's always a pleasure to work with you guys. And I hope that our relationship certainly continues in the future because you've always been brilliant in the past and during this session, as well. And I'd like to thank our
speakers for coming out. I thought that was probably one of the most thought provoking debates that I certainly church during my time as order of the Law Society, and it was really, really fantastic. And I'm delighted that that's going to be my last advice. And without any further ado, and with Isaiah kind of putting more spotlight on myself, I'd like to put the motion to the house. So in the motion that this House believes that Islam treats women, right, all of those in favor, please raise your hand and say Aye.
About five of you who are opposed the motion, please raise your hand and say nay. Okay, I'm by face. The motion has been passed. Thank you all very much.
Thank you.