Zaynab Ansari – EP 098 The Female Scholars
AI: Summary ©
The speakers address the challenges faced by women in the entertainment industry and the importance of learning to empower them. They touch on the decline of women's scholarship during the Iran revolution and the challenges faced by women's school environments. The speakers emphasize the need for a strong foundation for activism and the importance of finding female speakers in the community. They stress the importance of understanding the principles of Islamic culture and finding a passion for activism, as well as transformation of the society and identifying a passion for activism. They encourage listeners to visit their website and contribute to the program.
AI: Summary ©
Welcome to the mad mum looks. I'm Maheen,
and I'm joined today by my co host
Ismael.
On today's show, we have Ustadh Zainab Ansari,
who is one of the full time instructors
at Tayser Seminary in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Ustada Zaynab is a graduate of the Abu
Noor Institute in, Syria. May Allah alleviate the
suffering of the people of Syria,
and bring her back to her noble state.
Inshallah. So, Usadu Zaynab, first of all, we
are in Houston, Texas at the Texas Dow
Convention, and you just gave a talk on
where are the women's scholars.
So,
you know, first of all, thank you for
taking the time to sit down with us,
you know, having to go back to back,
you know, in in such a short, constricted
time.
Alright. So,
an interesting story. I am, in Washington DC,
and we're recently,
we recently started a new project
at the Religious Freedom Institute, which is an
organization,
in Georgetown in in DC.
And,
I was asked to put together a list
of potential members of a council of
advisers
that would be,
Islamic scholars.
And so when I started doing this research
now so I've been again, as the listeners
know, I was in prison for 13 and
a half years, and, I'm a little bit
out of touch with the the scholarly scene.
I I could have done something like this
off the top of my head,
back in 2,002.
But, to do it now, I had to
do some research and some googling.
And I was shocked and amazed to find
that I was coming up with more women
than men,
in terms of just,
the
the sheer, like,
credentials,
in America. You know? So one of, the
people on that list that I found was,
you, sister, Zayneb, and also, Tamara Gray and
others like that. And I was like, you
know, my my boss had told me try
to balance it out with
male and female. And actually, that was just
happening organically.
So I was kind of amazed to find
that there is this sort of, like, reservoir
or mine of,
or a vein,
as it were, like, of of sort of,
of gems or treasure in our community,
but you just don't you just don't hear
very much about them. So,
I thought it was a great opportunity to
have you here. And
your topic today was,
where are the women scholars? Yes. So,
Maheem, did you wanna start? Yeah. I mean,
first of all,
she was waiting for, 25 minutes
on the side because they were playing some
game. Right? Yeah. I was literally saying where
are the women scholars right now? Because Right
now because I Yeah. There's there's one sitting,
like, over there waiting to get on stage.
Waiting to get on stage. No. I I
was able to kinda review my notes. It
was Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Those of us who were at TDC will
know that every for the rest of us,
it's inside joke.
Well, I and also, by the way, I
I come from a traditional,
background of of scholarship, and I I found
it to me a little bit,
absurd, you know, to be, you know, you
we have this light. We're waiting for this,
and this knowledge
for something kind of,
frivolous. But anyway,
was you know, we need a little bit
of frivolity
as well as,
knowledge. Right. Well, we're starting off. I think
it's like you hear about
the tradition. Right? Quote, unquote from people who
are maybe push pushing a feminist agenda or
whatever. It's other kinds of agenda. Anti Islam,
whatever. That it's just the age of the
patriarchy and then points to, like, we just
refer back to
male scholars.
And then
even, like, most Muslims, they just refer back
to, like, oh, Aisha Al Anha has is
one of the most,
popular narratives of a hadith. Right? But then
and then just she taught behind the curtain,
and she had students,
etcetera.
But then it really stops there, and it's
people aren't really left with
much,
depth as far as how that tradition I
I know you talked a little bit about
that. Can you summarize,
the the shallowness of how our understanding is
as far as women's scholarship goes?
Well, you know, first off, let let me
say, brothers Maheen and Ismail, it's a pleasure
to be here. So
I'm having a good time, hamdullah, in Houston.
Everything is bigger and better in Texas, and,
the convention's been great. So,
and you picked my favorite topic and,
and it's so interesting brother Ismail, you said
that you you that when you went online
to search for scholars, you found all these
women and, I think things have changed. I
mean, you know, when I was coming up,
certainly, when you went to conferences and conventions
because we as Muslims enjoy going to conferences
and conventions. The way others go to concerts,
I've noticed that. This is this is our
entertainment. Yeah. But
you didn't find women on stage. You didn't
find women giving talks. You didn't find that.
And
I was always kind of raised to sort
of have this understanding that you had a
certain level of
equality between men and women in Islam, and
I don't and so I never felt that
there was any sort of barrier to women
being teachers and scholars and speakers, but you
didn't really see them in public, quite honestly,
so things have changed a lot. And I
there are several reasons I'd like to to
get to get to, but,
brother Mahin, your question in terms of,
you know, this idea that it all starts
and stops with the so I mean, there
there are a few things behind that. I
mean, we're really tied to the formative period
emotionally. I mean, it's it it's you know
how
Allah bless us to have really,
really great kind of healthy,
you know, childhoods. So we go back to
those memories. I mean, they're evocative, they're formative,
so we really kind of, like, hark back
to those early years. So there's a reason
why we're kind of so tied to that
early legacy,
I think, for some emotional and, spiritual reasons.
And Aisha's contribution is just so significant. I
mean, you cannot talk about women's scholarship or
any scholarship in Islam without talking about
But I think sometimes,
you know, it's almost like she's this sort
of
I don't wanna say token, but there's this
magical quality that we just see in and
no one else. And I think what we
forget is that,
you know, had a school. Aisha as you
said, Aisha taught, and she taught, you know,
she,
herself didn't have children,
because she, you know, sadly wasn't able to
carry her pregnancies to term. But she,
taught the children of Medina,
and, you know, so
scholars of the generation after the companions, the
and
I mean, they trace their intellectual lineage in
large part back to Aisha. So, you know,
her legacy certainly sort of reverberated.
But, and, you know, Aisha was also very
larger than life. She has this huge personality
and, you know, so sometimes we don't look
at the more kind of like more shy
and retiring women, you know, that were her
contemporaries. So that's kind of part of it.
And, certainly, if you look at others of
the you had others amongst them who had
kind of, like, scholarly kind of proclivities. You
know, you had Hafsa, for example, who I
I think is
I think because her father is this larger
than life personality, Amr,
we don't but Hafsa was her father's daughter
in so many different ways, and, you know,
she's a preserver of the Quran.
And, you didn't have a lot of literacy
in that time, but she's literate, which to
me is really, really important.
And, you know, as I said in my
talk, I mean, if you kind of look
at Islamic history overall, you can kind of
see things waxing and waning, see this really
productive early period.
Then you had women's scholarship even into the
golden age, but what's really ironic is that
the golden age, say, of the Abbasids, you
kinda see where women's scholarship kinda declines a
little bit. And then as and
others have pointed out, it picks back up
and this basically, you kind of see a
revival in the Seljuk period and the Mamluk
period, and then it it kinda drops off
again when you've got the encounter of Islam
in the West.
So you mentioned, in your talk about,
colonialism essentially marking a period where,
women's scholarship drops drops off. Is that as
a,
result of colonialism per se, or is it
as a result of the general civilizational decline
of the Muslims which
sort of was, you know, tied with or
invited colonialism in a way
or both? I think it's both because, you
know, in terms of the
ability,
you know, of Europeans to
exert hegemony over the Muslim world, I mean,
it's really multi causal.
You know, it's not I don't think it
owed to any kind of unique superiority
of of the Europeans, but this was, you
know, as you said, there was you had
general civilizational decline in the Muslim world.
You begin to see sort of a loss
of confidence in certain institutions.
You know, women's, I think, public role kind
of becomes sort of you know, it erodes,
and also at the same time, you know,
Europeans are amassing just enormous wealth from their
new world conquests. So you put all those
things together.
And,
and I think that, you know, when the
Muslim world
is invaded, when it's occupied, you know, the
response on the part of the Muslims
was to kind of retreat.
And, you know, if you think about it,
that's going to affect women because all of
a sudden, there's this real fear, this concern
that if women are in the public sphere,
maybe they're, you know, they might be,
attacked, that the honor of the of the
family might be impacted by this. So these
are very real concerns.
And one of the things that my my
teachers,
in the Syrian context at least noted that
was that when the the French came in,
there was this real concern amongst Syrian families,
especially religious ones, to shelter the women. So
you don't see women so much in the
public sphere, and this actually impacts
girls' access to education, and you can you
can see this market decline during that time.
Not to mention the views of the Europeans
themselves, I think they're very contradictory. So on
the one hand, they're coming in as sort
of so called liberators of Muslim women. Right?
But on the other hand,
you know, they're again undermining the very institutions
where women would actually go to seek knowledge.
You know, it's very similar in to the
Native Americans in the United States where they,
the European,
settlers thought that they were liberating women, but
in reality, they were destroying the institutions which
they were not even perceiving Right. You know,
in which women had, power.
So, anyways, moving on to today's world, like,
you you have someone you're someone who has
studied. You're teaching the dean.
Talk to us about your own a little
bit about your own story about what inspired
you to pursue this path.
You know, I
thinking,
thinking back on that, it's so interesting because
I never
I don't know if I would say I
intentionally set out. I mean, it's like, you
know, sometimes Allah just opens up a certain
path for you.
Let me preface this by saying, I don't
consider myself,
some people call me or whatever. I'm like,
no. No. That that I really believe we
we kind of throw that term
around a lot. I mean, there are women
who definitely meet the qualifications to be called
Sheikha. I'm not one of them. I think
Sheikha Tamara Gray is, but I'm not one
of them. I'm actually one of her students.
So I consider myself, 1st and foremost, a
student of knowledge, but, alhamdulillah, I also have
been blessed to teach,
in a certain capacity
and and to do a dawah, which is
really important to me.
And,
but in the very beginning, it was really
my mom and dad who are both converts
to Islam.
My mom is sister Kafi. I'm sorry. My
dad is brother Mansoor. I'm sorry. May Allah
preserve them. Amen. Amen.
When they converted to Islam and then they
my sister and I were born,
they they believed a 100% in the equality
of men and women in Islam. And it's
not because they were sort of progressive or
feminist, but that's just they always felt that,
you know, sort of ultimate empowerment for women,
if you wanna use that term empowerment, exists
in Islam sort of source text and traditions.
So
they felt that my sister and I deserve
to have the best education, so we ended
up going overseas,
to study,
first in Iran then Syria. And I know
today that sounds very controversial, but at that
time, they didn't think anything of it. They
had this very ecumenical understanding of Muslim Ummah,
and they didn't care about labels of Sunni
and Shia. They just wanted us to study,
although they always,
you know, followed,
Sunni schools of law.
So we started out in Iran
as kids really and went to a seminary
for a time there. And then,
fast forward to the, like, mid to late
19 nineties,
my mom and dad were,
and are good friends with,
Imam Zaid Shakir,
and he and his wife encouraged us to
think about coming to Syria to study. Also,
my,
my mom had friends, Syrian American friends who
encouraged her to study, and
they really opened her eyes in a very
significant way to this idea of a woman
teacher or an as the Syrians call her
or a Sheikha.
So that that that that that was the
road to Damascus for us, and
I'm really, really it's just such it's such
it was such a blessing to be there
at that time. It was a really special
time. So okay. So
when you went to Iran young at that
time. 19. How old were you when you
went when when y'all first went to Iran?
12 or 13. And your parents were still
in America or they went with y'all? No.
No. They,
you know, this is,
11111
yeah. This is 11 years after the Islamic
revolution, and, that's how awesome my parents are.
They thought nothing of us as American Muslims
moving to Iran within 11 years of the
revolution. That's what we did literally. Like, just
you and your sister? The whole family. Oh,
the whole family. Okay. And lived there. And,
and they had friends that they've met, like,
Iranians that were in college here in college
in college here in the US, you know,
at at the time. And,
yeah. And they're they're very adventurous. And, again,
they were not like, they didn't see any
impediments in terms of sectarian ideology or anything
like that. They just wanted us to live
in a Muslim majority country that was, like,
our first kind of, like, introduction to sort
of an Islamic seminary and that type of
thing and and learned women too. So I
read that I read that,
I read Sheikh, Sheikh Zayed saying that,
he had met your parents, when he was
at American University. So I actually went to
American University because Sheikh Zayed went to American
University. That's why I applied there because I
I met him in the nineties, and so
I went there. So there's kind of an
interesting Those are good times.
Yeah. So are you from the DC area
originally? Or No. No. Actually, originally from Atlanta.
Okay. So we left Atlanta, in the early
19 nineties and, and went to Iran for
a time. Okay. Yeah.
And like I said, my parents are both
converts to Islam. They're from up
north originally, but they've been in the
south for many years. Mhmm. But they're originally,
like, ethnically American
or European? We don't need I mean, we
don't need to if you're not comfortable with
it. No. I'm I'm and there's and there's
a point I wanna make. I'm glad When
you said when you said last thing was
I'm sorry. I'm like, are they Pakistani, but
they weren't like attack this. Yes. Let's Glad
that we're we're actually and this is the
the beauty of a podcast because you hear
our voices, but you don't see us. So
and then you see the name and you
think, well, this sounds like a Dasey or
an Iranian name. In fact, Zainab Ansari could
be a Persian name, but it's yeah. But
And and frankly, very very, it's very difficult
to tell just by appearance.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So Ansari was a name
that my mom and dad chose
upon converting to Islam because on my dad's
side, our family name
is Abdul Masih,
Christian Lebanese.
So you're so you're Christian Lebanese? Yeah. On
my dad's side, Lebanese Christians.
With my great grandfather
immigrated
to the United States,
when you still had an Ottoman Empire.
Have we, have we uncovered is this some
breaking news that we're I I mean I've
never seen that in any of my I
I assumed you were, like, Arab or I
thought you were Syrian. I was like, well,
you know,
your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense
as far as, like, why you would I
would know the the religion of
I think a lot of times when we
go to study, it's like Yeah. Someone we
trust Oh, absolutely. Has given you has, you
know, Vowsk for Institute. Right? I mean, I
you know, so there's I I mean, I
feel this affinity for Syria because my ancestors
on my dad's side are from larger, you
know, greater Syria be led to Sham. Yeah.
But that's the history. And I'm really happy
because, you know, I think there's a point
here they wanna make about, you know, sort
of, you know, we make certain assumptions, you
know, in Subhanallah that my my story is
a story it's it's a story of converts
and immigrants. And my mother's African American I
was just gonna ask that. So yeah. Yeah.
And also, you know, we make certain assumptions
too, I think, in terms of,
you know,
about, you know, ethnicity and all that. You
know? So I the the story, it's a
really I think it's a uniquely American story
in the sense that you can have someone
like my dad from a Lebanese Christian background
to marry my mom who's African American
from Detroit, and they discover Islam, and they
say, let's take our daughters overseas. Right? To
Iran. In more places. Yeah. Yeah. And then
Syria. So but absolutely. So so,
my great grandfather,
whose name was Mansur Hanna Adil Masih.
Hanna is or John. Adil Masih came to,
the United States in the 18 nineties before
there was a Lebanon.
This was, in fact, the papers say Turkish
because it's part of the part of the
Ottoman Empire. Amazing. And, it's so interesting when
we visited Lebanon
in the late 19 nineties,
we were able to go and return to
the ancestral village.
This is right after Hezbollah kicked, Israel out
of Southern Lebanon, by the way, in 1999.
And,
we visit the ancestral village and, one of
our we met some extended family
and they noted with great surprise
that they they they left Lebanon as Christians,
went to America, and came back from America
as Muslims. How is this possible? Amazing. Yeah.
So, I mean, I mean, that's that's a
testament to the the beauty of this society
quite honestly. Yes. Yeah. When my mom and
dad became Muslim, they were advised by the,
Dacey uncle
who gave them, you know, Shahada
that you might wanna think about changing that
name because Adil Masih means slave of the
Messiah, which theologically speaking for a Muslim might
be a little problematic. Yeah. Just a little.
A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So and,
problematic. Yeah. Just a little. Little bit. Yeah.
Yeah. Alright. So, well, actually before so when
you're Abu Nur, like, I you're familiar with,
like, many institutes like the University of Medina
or Omar Khara where people do a faculty
Mhmm. Like Sharia or Hadith or Quran.
Was is there a specific science of Islamic
sciences
or amongst the sciences that kind of, like,
float your boat more than the others or
something you specialize in? Yeah. You know, so
Abu Nur so it had a college. Well,
it was a huge complex,
so the program that I did was actually,
it was a 3 year preparatory program, like
so intensive was this preparatory program that Masha'Allah
I came back and I was actually able
to teach, so if you came in without,
what they called
or basically,
a high school diploma
from an Islamic school, you did the pre
college program, 3 years of Arabic and and
hadith and so many topics. So that was,
like, 3 years of study that we did
at Abu Nour and a lot of
topics. So, that was like 3 years of
study that we did at Abu Noor and
a lot of independent study, and then we
also did a year at University of Damascus.
But, Abu Noor beyond that, they actually have
a they had a there was a Dawah
College, there was an
Osul College, which which the Syrians largely went
to.
The international students went to the Dawa College,
like, Iman Zayed went there.
They even have, like, a high school for
Syrians, a middle school. They had a Quran
school. All all a lot of things happening
at Abu Noor. Okay. Yeah.
But you asked me about which topic. So
I just took I basically took the curriculum,
but I supplemented with things I did independently.
And I really loved I think at the
time, I'd say my favorite subject was probably
Arabic grammar and Tajweed
at the time. Yeah. Syrians are famous for
Tajweed. Yes. Like, I'm in Rishdi Sway, the
Sheikh.
There's a sister,
here who has a jazah from him, actually,
in the Northern Virginia area, and she does,
hadukats there. Okay. So now you would consider
I mean, now you're Sunni, obviously. Correct? And
I hope I'm not going somewhere weird with
that or I I think we should be
really open and candid about, you know, our
positionality and yeah. So my mom and dad,
again, they always
view themselves as Sunni, but, again, they were
very ecumenical in their outlook, which is how
we ended up in Iran. But, yes,
I've always identified,
as Sunni. Yeah. Mhmm.
Is is there is there a particular,
that you would kind of go towards,
whatever, or
or you sort of,
yeah, where where would
you fall in all that if that's an
appropriate question? Probably, I would say more towards
the Ashari side. Okay. Definitely. And how about,
like, Fiqh,
wise?
Well, you know, one of my mentors
might be disappointed, but, you know, I,
I I was actually raised Hanafi Mhmm. And
I've studied both Hanafi and Shafarai, but I
teach Shafarai at the seminary. Okay. And all
my Syrian teachers are Shafarai, so considering maybe
becoming Shafarai again. Okay. Yeah. Alright. I actually
think that,
in that some some we talked about, like,
ideological back the Yeah. The people of traditional
Islamic background, Imam Zay Shah Hamza.
I feel like it's
that,
environment has always been historically not the pigeonhole
or blast my Salafi brethren. I can do
that because I'm a former, like, recovering Salafi.
I don't know why you look at me
because I, also do not consider myself that
anymore. Yeah. Oh, but, like, I felt like
that,
those brothers, those masha'ik always made it more
conducive for sisters to study. Like, I know
sister Nora Shama
has been teaching with, like, Suni Pathna of
Qibla for, like, I don't know, over a
decade. Oh, yeah. Right? 7. Yeah. You know,
you know, so I think that's,
just Knight. Do you know 9. She's another
Right. I I ran into a 7. Just
last week in Atlanta.
Right. Yeah. So part of the thing is,
I think,
is so when in the early 2000, when
it became popular for people to go to
get into the dean and study the the
religion,
it was always a lot of people. So
there's some folks who went to Abu Noor
because they know,
but very common was the Islamic University of
Medina. And the Islamic University of Medina is
set up where
it's very
I think it's very friendly for guys that
maybe study as far as, like, scholarship is
you're on a full ride,
but they have no set. They still don't
have a a system for sisters. Mhmm. The
sisters that went went as wives of students,
and they would maybe attend certain halakat
that were there. But in general,
they would and because it's Medina, there's that
appeal of just going to Medina. Uh-huh. So
it draws,
like, a large amount of students from America
going over. And they're obviously, you know,
positioning for students from all over the world.
Right? And then the other students at Saudi,
like,
you know, you could go, but then you
need a Maharam Right. To who would be
enrolled. I know women who wanted to go,
but they lack a Maharam. Right. Mhmm. So
there's certain obstacles there.
Did you find similar obstacles in going to
Abu Noor as far from a gen like,
from either, like, traveling without or anything like
that from a gender,
inhibiting perspective? Yeah. You know? No. And it
it's I'm glad that you and, Imashal, you
so diplomatically asked about the great Sufi Salafi
divide.
Right? But yeah. But no. I mean, Alhamdulillah.
I just, it just so happened that the
people who've been my mentors with whom I've
been most closely associated would be more towards
the Asha'arimid
Habib
Tasul Wolf part of it. But I've I
and I credit my parents for this. I'm
very ecumenical in my outlook. In fact, I'm
actually taking a course with Al Maghrib right
now. So,
you know, so I can't really kinda speak
to what the experiences of women who maybe
take a more salafi approach have been, just
kind of what I know anecdotally,
but I would, let me say this. One
of the things that kind of drew us
to Syria after having been in Iran was
we ran into the sectarian thing in Iran,
which was kind of, like, you could go
and study as a woman, but there are
those kinda sectarian sort
of issues of sectarian ideology that we ran
into. So we felt like go to Damascus,
it might be more kind of expansive kind
of experience. What kind of curriculum was in
Iran?
Well, what's really interesting is that we did
a lot of Arabic grammar, and that's actually
where I kinda fell in love with Arabic
grammar because Persians excel at teaching Arabic grammar.
They were the earliest grammarians, actually.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Absolutely. So we did grammar and, we
did some and,
I don't really recall doing much in the
way of hadith, but we took subjects that
you might not find in a more in
a more sort of setting, like, we did,
mental logic and rhetoric and and things like
that, which is kind of interesting. So is
it you guys studied? It was.
Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. Mhmm. Yeah. What about
the do they have a tradition of Tassoul
still in Iran? Yeah. They do. I mean,
you know, I I find there are certain
things about Shiism itself, which they actually kinda,
like, draw from Sufism. Although, I've heard, like,
officially speaking, you know, there's some sort of
leeriness on the part of the Iranian government
at least towards some Sufi groups, but there's
something about
Shiite praxis itself, which actually kind of, I
think, has analogies to Sufism. It's kind of
it kind of interesting.
Yeah. So and we could we could probably
get into that a little bit further. But,
nonetheless, we when we went to Damascus, what
I found was that, like and it was
a natural thing to have an ense to
have a woman teacher.
So
and Abunur
was, you know, again, it's this vast complex
and you had a women's school and a
men's school.
And, honestly, I'd have to say the only
challenges that we faced as women in that
environment were that I know we didn't have
access to the library the way we wanted
to. Like, it was open to the men,
but our hours are more restricted. Like, you
could go, but still there were some restrictions.
And sometimes I I've found that if you
were single, because at that time I was,
that
not, you know, if you really wanted to
study the very preeminent male that
sometimes you couldn't really gain entree the way
that our male counterparts would, that sometimes it
was easier for the women who are married
that they could attend those lessons with their
husbands or whatever. Those are the things I
noticed, but, you know, it wasn't it didn't
really kinda, like, hamper our efforts in a
really significant way because there were so many
female teachers that you would go to. And
those female teachers worked with male.
So, for example, if you were sitting for
an Ijaz and Quran, ultimately, you'd go and
see the sheikh of the Anseh anyway. You
know? That's a really interesting point you made
because there's a, institute in Chicago that's pretty
well very reputable. I I take classes there,
and their sisters would take classes there as
well. But the sisters also tell me that
you've gotta have a really thick skin
to, like, take class in the sense that,
like, you don't necessarily have the same access
to the to the moshayik as the brothers
do. Right?
And it's also, like, you know, there's a.
Right? And they the way they do things.
Yes.
You know, but,
you know, and I
and it's almost like but at the same
time, I feel like those sisters who are
there
excel much better than the brothers
because
they're not on they're having to overcome
some of those those gender barriers,
but they're actually getting much more out of
their studies Yeah. Yeah. Than the brothers are.
Yeah. You'd be very disciplined. I mean, remember
going to 1 there was one sheikh who
was teaching, like, hadith sciences
and, you know, I mean, you could go,
but you had to sit. I think there
was a curtain or, like, there was some
kind of partition, so you kind of had
to discipline yourself to get used to these
things.
So but,
I mean, I have to say that we
actually my sister and I, I don't know
how this happened. Oh, yeah. We ended up
studying with a really, really great Tajweed master
because we started by by sitting with his
daughter, and then she had other family obligations.
So, she's like, go sit with my dad.
So, masha'Allah, Allahu Ramhu, he was an amazing
scholar, Sheikh Mohammed Zukar.
And he was, like I mean, we didn't
realize it at the time because my sister
and I were a little bit we were
kind of young and naive, but later on
I realized, masha'Allah, this is, like, one of
the most preeminent Quran Wow.
Like, reciters and teachers in Damascus.
And he's just this nice elderly man who
lets these 2 American girls, like, we would
come and knock on his door early in
the morning. He'd kinda shuffle out to greet
us and sit and listen to us. And
in the beginning, it was really intimidating because
he would tear our he would tear our
recitation apart, but I'm so grateful now to
him because
he really helped us along our Tajweed.
Very, very nice man.
So as someone who's,
I I I really love the science of
Tajweed and the study of it. So
I wanted to ask you that, right now,
it seems that
there is the, the science of Tajweed is
in a weird position,
in the minds of many modern Muslims. On
the one hand,
many of them and I I could say,
especially,
often among, like, so called Salafis
or, Saudis,
they will often
denigrate,
the science of Tajweed as something that is
sort of not, not really of the essence.
And then on the other hand, you have,
for example, people who will will study it,
but it won't really penetrate their,
anything else, you know, that they do. And
so it's like, you know, you'll you find
these people who have the Quran memorized, but,
but they they'll they don't have much else.
They don't have any understanding of it, and
they might be able to recite it perfectly,
but it you know? So what is the
proper way to understand,
the science of of Tajweed? Is it you
know, so that it doesn't just become something
technical
on the one hand, but also is not
something like lost and forgotten on the other.
You know, the science of Tajweed is, I
mean, it's certainly
to have people in the community who,
can recite Quran with Tajweed and teach it.
And, you
know, I I I feel that
Tajweed is sort of to me, it's one
of these sciences, and the reason why I
think it's important and relevant
is be it's one of these sciences that
I think kind of, like, almost in a
way democratizes our access to the Quran.
Because if you think about it, I mean,
Quran recitation,
I mean, some of the best of the
best in terms of mastery of Quranic recitation
are are non native speakers of Arabic, which
to me is a very powerful statement that
I can be from a Turkish speaking background
or Boston or English speaking or whatever the
language is, Hausa or whatever it is. And
I learn the rules of,
and this gives me a certain level of
parity with someone who's, like, a native Arabic
speaker.
So, I think it's it's it's very important,
and I think that,
also, to me, you know, learning and teaching
tashweed,
it gives me kind of a renewed sense
of appreciation for the ajaz of the Quran.
Like, the Quran has this kind of unique
quality of being, like, this inimitability
of the Quran.
And I think you really understand that when
you learn Tajweed, especially if you're if you're
a really great Tajweed teacher and they give
you some sense of, like, you've got canonical
readings of the Quran, you have variant readings,
and you learn that there's
a particular quality of the sacred texts, I
think,
you know, only kinda comes across when you
actually learn its sciences. And one of its
sciences is Tajweed.
And the prophet that,
you know, of one of the kind of
merits of of learning learning the Quran is
being able to to recite it with, you
know, recite it in a beautiful way. This
is one of the adab of the Quran.
So yeah. So it's part of honoring the
Quran and
beautifying it. Absolutely. You know, there is no
musical instrument that can compare to the human
voice.
And the person,
like, the best Quran reciters, you would swear
they know musical theory. They're that good. Yeah.
Would you say there's a restriction on
sisters teaching Tajweed to men because of this
whole because I there's sister that's I think
it was at some conference a few years
ago, and there's a bunch of pushback at
Remember.
The. Yeah. Yeah. The voice is
the beautifying the voice is considered the aura.
Yeah. What is the legal, like, background on
that?
You know, this this I think this it's
an important question because this debate, you know,
woman's voice is aura, I think, is also
what sort of has prevented women from kind
of addressing the community at large. There is
this belief amongst, you know, even
some certainly
that the woman's voice is one of the
things that should be concealed.
So,
you know, based upon my studies, and I
think there is this opinion in the school
that that there's nothing there's no sort of
impediment to women speaking any and even sort
of reciting and these things in public so
long as they're kind of, like, part of
a chorus. I think this is a opinion.
I personally don't feel that there's any
barrier to a woman's teaching Quran or Tajweed
so long as certain,
boundaries are observed. Now, again, though Tajweed but
I will say this. I mean, Tajweed is
one of those sciences where you really kinda,
like, wanna watch watch your teacher very closely,
and and sometimes you have to actually show
the mouth. The mouth and the tongue and
the teeth and all of that. So for
for reasons of,
I would say it's probably best to have
the same
gender teacher,
but I don't think it's unlawful in certain
cases for a woman to teach Quran,
You know? And I think that
it all kind of goes back to our
intention.
And I was kind of, I was saddened
when that you know, when
received all that kind of, like, pushback when
she recited it at Isna. I think it
was I think that was actually a good
thing because think about it. If we want
our daughters
to have role models in Quran,
we want people to show them Quran, female
Quran reciters. I think that's really important. Yeah.
You know, if you think about it, if
you just Google female Quran reciters, it's you're
very hard pressed to find any because of
these views, unfortunately.
So I know I know a sister,
in the Virginia area who is Syrian and
she has she's a a half of, of
Quran,
has Ijaz and Bukhari. She's
and no one knows who she is. She's
just sort of floating around. She also has
a degree in law, so she's working as
a a lawyer.
There's,
Tamara Gray. There's yourself. Now I don't mean
to say that no one knows about you
because actually I I come to find that
you you are more well known than than
I thought. But at the same time, like,
we have these so called celebrity sheikhs of
who are men
who,
quite honestly is you you you don't you
don't like the term sheikha applied to you,
but these men apparently don't mind the term
sheikha being applied to them,
and they're more they're, like, all over the
place. You know what I mean? So what
is,
okay. So a woman goes off. She she
learns the dean.
Marshall excels in it, comes back to America,
and is stuck somewhere. And, you know, so
what do we do? How do we, like
you know, what what do we do about
the situation? And what motivation is there for
a woman to go off and study when,
they had a glass ceiling as it were?
Right. I mean, there is a glass ceiling,
and I I don't I don't think that
glass ceiling is necessarily always kind of imposed
by the community or the patriarchy. I think
it's sometimes as women, we can be our
own worst enemy because I think some some
of us, and I found this working with
women, is that we still,
find men to be more authoritative. So I
think we have to actually kind of ask
ourselves as women, I mean, our our frames,
like, really interrogate those frames.
You know, just as an aside, you know,
I was watching a film about Margaret Thatcher.
She was being she was portrayed by,
Meryl Streep. And in the in the film,
Margaret Thatcher, apparently, this is real, had to
actually undergo voice training to learn how to
make the register of her voice lower and
deeper.
Because if she did that her male colleagues
would take would take her more seriously. Wow.
Think about that. And Allah tells us in
the Quran, tells women to, you know, make
the don't make the voice alluring.
Interesting. Right? Think about that. So, I think
there are certain,
I think I think there are, you know,
in terms of how we perceive authority, there
are certain cues that we're not even picking
up on. So I just wanted to to
put that point out there.
Also, in terms of celebrity,
I don't know that
any of the
the so called male celebrity shayits, I I
doubt I doubt that they ever set out
to become celebrities, but I think given our
current media culture,
we as the Muslim sort of
convention sort of attending public, you know, we
gravitate toward towards those people who are charismatic,
who can help us to sort of,
process these questions we have about Islam. So,
I think this is just maybe kind of,
like, one of the
one of the byproducts, I think, of this
larger culture we have in in in terms
of North American Islam. So I just wanted
to make raise that point. But, nonetheless, though,
I do find women that we tend to
be more shy. We tend to be more
shy, more retiring.
We don't have sometimes, in some cases, we
don't have that level of assertiveness that it
really takes kind of sort of put oneself
out there and kinda claim a platform Mhmm.
And seek that institutional backing that I think
men are maybe more adept at sometimes.
Not to mention the fact that sometimes when
we kind of think about how to allocate
limited resources in our community, sometimes we're going
to
put those resources in the direction of our
male or. It's just a decision that many
of our communities have made.
Having said that though, if we can identify
women such as the the the sheikha you
mentioned,
has
these
but is working in, you know, sort of
in a secular field. Yeah. In in obscurity,
in a secular field, we need to really
kind of ask ourselves, are we allocating these
resources properly? Because there are women out there
who I think really deserve to have that
institutional support. In my case,
I was just fortunate,
in that the foundation I worked for, Taysir
Foundation, specifically,
basically, endowed a position for a female scholar
that was very intentional on their part, and
I will reward them. Is that a good
model, for other, like, institutions to to do?
Oh, yeah. I think we have to do
that. I think it really takes sort of
very forward thinking,
in this case, men,
to come together and say, you know what?
We wanna specifically create this position for a
woman scholar. I mean, they did it very
intentionally.
Yeah. Now you now you said earlier, you
weren't a scholar.
So, like, but let's define a scholar. Can
we define that? Because,
the reason I, well, I'll have you define
it first, and I'll tell you why I
asked. Okay.
You know, when I in my talk, you
know, there's this you have the scholar in
the more generic sense of the. Right? But,
you know, you have levels within that, and
I think that one of the reasons why
I'm careful, you know, because I I don't
wanna claim sort of lay claim to certain
titles that I think that I'm
just
not worthy of it, you know, at this
point. I really feel that for someone to
be considered a sheikh of a certain caliber,
you know, there are certain requirements that honestly
I'm still working towards whether it's memorizing the
whole Quran
or Ijaz as in certain fields or that
type of thing. So, for me, I really
kind of view my vocation as more
of with some scholarship there. Mhmm. Right? Because
my training's in history, quite honestly.
And I've had some really great mentors along
the way, but,
you know, I also recognize there are women
out there who possess Ijazas, women who have,
for example, doctorates, and I'm mindful of that.
I mean, to me, I really feel that
we're very sort of,
we we quickly apply, you know, certain labels
and credentials.
And, you know, in my case, I would
certainly never I would never feel comfortable being
called but, you know, like I've told people,
it just means teacher or professor, and that's
acceptable because I do teach, and I enjoy
teaching. So yeah. Isn't there is there a
sort of a sense in which,
in the land of the blind, the one
eyed man is king? Yeah. So in other
words, like, when no one has any knowledge
and you have this level of of knowledge,
it sort of, like, feels natural to say,
you know? And and also, I think one
of the things that we have the responsibility
to do is if we don't know something,
we say I don't know, but I can
direct you to the towards the person who
has the the knowledge or the background who
can help you. And I often do that,
you know, where I teach, for example, we
have Shahasman Ashab who,
you know, the way we've divided up the
curriculum, he has certain subjects, and I have
certain subjects, and it works out quite well.
So Are there any,
is there are there any actual alims in
America,
now who deserve that title?
Yeah. Or alimas. Either alimas. Absolutely. You've got
our alama and alimat who and I think
even though we're reluctant to call a woman
a sheikha,
there are women who have the I think
they've definitely attained to that rank. Again, one
of the reasons Can you give us some
names? Yeah. I mean, I think one of
the reasons it's controversial is because, especially for
those that are more leaning,
there is the view amongst some eminent,
that
a sheikh has to be a male because
is,
you know, prophethood is for males. Right? So
that's that's that is an important point of
view. But, yeah, I would say, really, off
the top of my head, I would say,
you know, Tamara,
Tamara Grey is one of them for sure.
And, again, they're these are women who are
they're very shy in in the sense that
they're not making these claims for themselves. Remember,
the greatest or alama,
they were recognized by their peers. It's always
there's always been the system of being recognized
by one's peers. Right? Mhmm. That's how these
titles, Hushat al Islam or Sheikh al Islam
are conferred.
You know, Sheikh Azaleb Alawani is another one
that comes to mind. Yeah. I'm asking for
very practical reasons, so that,
those who are out there in the community
who want to begin to
promote
and, and recognize
female scholarship in America so that they can
they can do that. You know? Yeah. So
you mentioned too. Any any others that you
would
recommend? Yeah. You know, there are there are
several really, really wonderful women out there that
It really can and, again, it depends because
sometimes the needs of the audience will, you
know, so Sure. There are a lot of
I really want to say there are a
lot of women in academia who have done
some really,
amazing work, and I think that sometimes because
of this whole sort of issue of sort
of Islam and feminism that sometimes we shy
away from the work of women in academia,
but there are a lot of Muslim women
who are doing really important work in that
field. But, you know, again, when it goes
I think one of my one of the
challenges I personally face when it comes to
identifying women who are more,
traditionally inclined is that those women don't really
seek the limelight. Yeah. And a lot of
times because of their understanding of Islam and
Afiqh,
they might not even want to address a
male audience.
So that's why we don't know that there
are serious issues. So,
a couple years ago, I I was involved,
with a conference in Chicago, and I was
in charge of all the speaker hospitality.
And we reached out to, like, people like
Sheikha Muslim Apurmal,
who's an Azhar graduate Yes.
For example,
amongst others.
And,
she she was just busy. She couldn't make
it that weekend. So we did have a
disproportionate amount of male to female speakers.
However,
when people reached out to us, like, hey.
There's we boycott this conference because there's not
enough sisters on the on the panel, and
they send us a
spreadsheet of, like, all the speakers we can
find. Seen that and they're Right? So They're
gonna boycott the, And then so I asked
about so I'll and so, and I was
talking to the organizers. I was, listen.
Thing is everybody that we have, it's it's
a meritocracy in the point of, like, where
what what have you studied. Right? It's not
about just putting a sister up there just
so he's because she's a sister. I can
I can ask someone who has a blog?
Like, some people were like, there are people
on there who are just bloggers. Or the
I have a friend. His wife does amazing
work with, like, humanitarian
relief overseas.
And she was on this list,
and I asked him about it about her,
and and she and she and he was
like, really? She didn't get her authority to
put her on that list with her contact
information. I don't know if it's the same
list, but there's a list going around right
now that one of the, of women speakers
and one of these is not even a
woman. It's a man who dresses up as
a woman and wears hijab. Oh, wow. So
yeah. So the thing is that with the
absence going to new territory with that one.
Yes. So with the absence of these
sheikas
and with them hiding and not wanting to
be out in the limelight,
what happens is that others take their place.
There's a vacuum. Yeah.
So we wind up with,
activists
or we wind up with whatever. Or straight
up charlatans like the way you think. Or
charlatans. That's that's what I'm saying. Well, I
I never would have imagined that one. Yeah.
You guys.
Yeah. There are a few other sisters I'd
like to mention. I hope and I'm not,
obviously, these are the ones that come to
mind. Yes. There's so many others. You're not
excluding anybody. If I've missed anyone, please forgive
me. But, you know, doctor Ingrid Madsen,
I mean, I I've learned so much from
her. Usada Nura Shammah.
There's Usada Faltima Knight who graduated from Zaytuna.
Noridine's sister. Noridine's sister.
There's doctor Intisar Rab who,
was at Abu Noor with us. I mean
Really? Yeah. Yeah. I've known her since 96.
Yeah. Is amazing
because she's got her JD and her doctorate
and, of course, studied with traditional scholars as
well. So, I mean,
again,
like I said, we have to readjust our
frames because we have we just we're just
inclined to kind of, like, when a brother
is out there and he's charismatic and eloquent,
automatically he's Sheikh. Right? And and
and in most cases, they possess the the
people who are out there, they do possess
the credentials.
And I think we need to think about
how can we make it possible for women
to attain similar credentials. That's in a very
important I see. I think as we wrap
up here, I think I think the theme
is really the conference.
Yes. You know, the conference scene sometimes I
think we, as a community, need to mature.
The conference's
scene has its has its place. Right? You
know, it's a place where a lot of
people get their spark to get into the
dean. Right? But you can't but I don't
think you can stagnate and be a conference
attendee for, like, 20 years and get knowledge
that way. I've heard uncles say that I
don't have to conference attendee. You know, I
I've had uncles tell me, like, there they'd
be, like, a weekend intensive coming. Yeah. Right?
Or
they want so many wants to teach a
book like,
And they're like, well, I go to Islam
for 20 years, so I don't I I
know what I I get what I need
to learn from Islam. Hamza Yusuf told me
in 1993,
he said,
this is their Islam. He was pointing out
to the conference attendees
that this is their Islam. You know? Right.
So, you know
yeah. Oh, okay. Now,
so my fiance,
sister Noor,
Judith, she
wanted to study,
get her master's degree in Islamic, studies
and, at an American University of Georgetown or
something like that. And I suggested that would
probably need not be a good idea as
did,
doctor Jonathan Brown. He said, no. Don't do
that. You know, if you're if you wanna
study Islam, study it traditionally.
Don't study it in American university. And he's
a professor in an American university, and so
is, sister, Sheikha Intisar and so on. So
what I wanted to ask you was,
there's let's say there's an there's a sister
out there who's listening to this podcast,
or there's a father out there who's, you
know, listening to it and is considering for
his daughter or whatever.
What do they do now? You know, where
do they go? They're inspired by your talk.
Where how do they go and become an
animal?
You know, so there are a couple of
things that you mentioned earlier that I didn't
get a chance to get to. So one
of them is that if you don't have
qualified women in the space that, you know,
there's this vacuum and other people step in.
And I think that when it comes to
women and gender, we do sometimes conflate activism
and scholarship. I wanted to make that point.
Not that they're mutually exclusive, but they're also
conflated in a way that's maybe not done
with men. So that's one point I wanted
to make.
Also, Istad Al Shireen Ahmed with Seekers Guidance.
So there's so many qualified women out there.
But for a father, you know, or a
mother, you know, who wants to, you know,
make these opportunities available for their daughter,
you know, we again, this is why I
said this when I in my talk, we
cannot store I mean, I cannot overemphasize the
importance of the Quran. That's foundational.
I mean, I if you look at the
biography of of all of our major, they
all memorize the Quran for their age 10.
Right? Because if you think about that's when
the brain has really come Right. Right. I
mean, yeah. I mean, just cognitively speaking. Right?
So
I would say that from the time that
they're babies, inshallah,
like, be intentional about it. Make this plan
that inshallah, I'm gonna make sure they become,
they memorize the Quran.
And then I would say that, you know,
because again, the traditional methodology,
I would say it's being eclipsed because there
are so many online options and that type
of thing. But there's something to be said
for that very traditional methodology of sitting that
student with a shaykh or the teacher, and
they memorize, like, this basic primer in the
field, and they go on to more and
more advanced text. Can they do that here
or do they have to do that over
the age? So, like Yeah. It can be
down here if you find the teacher. I
have a 4 year old daughter. She's my
I have 2 daughters, a 4 year old
and a 7 month old. And my 4
and a half year old is conversant in
Arabic. She's Bangladeshi by ethnicity. Right?
Because now there are resources. Unfortunately, I'm in
Chicago. I'm in a com in a community
that's called Little Palestine Bridgeview. Right? That can
just, like, put her in for a 2
year pro is her her pre k program
is basically where they the kids memorize
and then they become like they learn Arabic,
basically. So basically and she's and I think
there's it's a lot of that, you know,
that they get they get their cultural identity
there too because she just, like, walks around
the house singing
or, like, from in the evening when I,
I've had to learn some Arabic just to
sing, like, to her.
You know, as bedtime routines. Right? So I
think the parent and our my wife and
I, we've discussed it. We're like, okay. We'll
do the thing, and then we'll see how
she gravitates toward the hit. If we we
don't wanna force hits on the kid when
she's 4 or 5. That's not she something
she wants to do.
But there is, like we do see that
there's a genuine, like, appreciation. I don't know
if she understands the the depth of the
Quran yet. Right? But she will, like before
we go to bed, she's like, Abu, I
didn't read the Quran today. Like, she you
know what I mean? And some things like
that. So I think that's the parents do
have responsibility. I think that's where your your
folks came in clutch there, you know, with
for you and your sister kinda put getting
that ball rolling. Absolutely. I don't wanna,
open up any, cans of worms here, but,
so speaking of activists,
so Who are the activists we shouldn't take
now? No. No. No. It's it seem it's
there there, okay. One of the things that
I noticed having when, when I, come out
of, president sort of, you know, like, Rip
Van Winkle like or, you know, time traveler
like seeing this this new era that we
live in is that there's been a lot,
you know,
there's been,
people are much less interested in ilmena, like,
the Muslim community, like, you know, the online
Muslim community. And so it just seems to
me and at the same time, there's been
this, like, corresponding, like, increase in activism.
So, like, this activism is now, like, you
know, separated from knowledge. You know? And it's
sort of like you have a lot of
shooting from the hip. You have a lot
of, you know anyone who's at this march,
you know, it's understood that they believe in
abortion. You know? And so it's like, woah.
Wait. What does that have to do with
did you did you did you take that
back to the to the sources and to
the roots? You know? So,
how can we get Muslims to start caring
more about,
knowledge and about,
principles,
their Islamic principles?
That's a that's a good question. I think
that what I would say, you know, just,
you know, in defense of some of the
sisters who are out there sort of in
that, you know, in the activist sphere,
that maybe they feel that, you know, that
traditional remedies have not been successful and that
may might be one of the things that
sort that sort of compelled them to sort
of become involved and then, you know, and
because if you think about these issues, the
hot button issues, women and gender, you know,
I I think one of the reasons why
sometimes women are kind of more pushed in
the direction of advocacy and activism is because
they become frustrated with the perceived silence of
traditional alama on certain topics. So I will
say that. But having said that, I think
if we're going to be really effective
as activists, that we need to understand it's
more about
advocacy for the sake of advocacy, but transformation
of the society beginning with the individual. And
that's where you have to have a very
solid foundation of of of of the and
of scholarship.
Because, you know, when you separate those 2,
sometimes our efforts can be devoid of barakah,
and we wanna bring barakah back into our
efforts. I firmly believe in that. And
if you look at
I mean, the prophet sallallahu
alaihi sallam, I mean,
he was out there, right, sort of in
the trenches, but at the same time, he
was also
meditating and,
you know,
reflecting and
engaged in a Ibada. Right? I mean, that
was the foundation for his success, so we
need to look at that And,
also, look at how we can make it
possible for people who feel a passion for
activism, how they can really,
you know because not everyone is going to
be a scholar or is inclined to become
a scholar. It's a very rigorous process.
But at the same time, I mean, the
program we have in Knoxville, we actually have
a component,
an activism component. I mean, we have, like,
11 subjects, so the alum component is there.
And then we have, a practice of spirituality,
and then we also have an activism workshop
that everyone takes. But it's connected to It's
but it's connected to the other components. Yeah.
And that's what I would say. I would
say for those of us who are out
there, whether we're doing activism or teaching or
speaking,
go back to that
kind of imperative,
you know, where we assess our intention,
we look at our motives, we look at
who we're surrounded with, and we really kind
of go back. We really have to go
back to the basics.
I mean, all of us have to go
back to the basics because whether we're teaching
or we're out there demonstrating, we have to
make sure
that we have that. It's. Alright. I don't
It smells very nice to ask one more
question. So I'll give it to you if
you could do it in 30 seconds. Okay.
30 questions. 30 second question, Ismael. Is that
my question or or your answer is Your
question has to be 30 seconds. So This
is a little bit of an esoteric or
philosophical question, but we know that there's a
great difference between the female and male spirits.
And it it's reflected in parenting. It's reflected
in, all these different things. So
is there something
different about female
scholarship
than male scholarship?
And have the Muslims
lost something,
by the the decrease
in female scholarship? Does that make sense? It
does make sense. I think men and women
I think ontologically,
we are equal. But in terms of how
those things in terms of how
things practically manifest, I mean, the Quran is
very clear on this that the male is
not like the female.
You know? And, there is something missing when
we don't have women and women's voices. There's
a certain level of compassion.
Zaynab Alwani mentions that, and that she has
got an essay in a recent book, and
she said that because we're women, there are
certain issues that we're just gonna care about.
Mhmm. Think what
Aisha. Aisha was one who protested that hadith
for another companion who compared women to animals.
She said, how can you make this comparison?
So, yeah, there we're just sensitive to certain
things that maybe our male counterparts aren't. So
there's an imbalance that has come about. Right.
For, taking the time to talk to us
today.
And so how can people find out more
about Taysir or yourself? Do you have a
social media presence or any links that you
can give people? Well, I wanna say
to to the both of you, brother Mahin,
brother Ismail. I think Madam Mlux is an
awesome
podcast. The Mamelukes are pretty awesome, I have
to say. Like I taught my students, they
are the ones who halted the Mongols. So,
but, yeah, you can go to seminary.org
to learn more about the program.
And, Hamlet, it's a 1 year intensive in
Islamic studies for someone who wants to take
that gap year off to really immerse themselves
in a really great environment.
Awesome. And how what's the age you guys
take start taking students?
Basically, our youngest has been aged 17,
and our eldest was probably aged 65. So
Oh, Okay. Great. Is is there a requirement
as far as age from a minimum perspective?
Ideally to have completed high school. Okay. Mhmm.
Yeah. Very cool. Mhmm. Alright. For listeners out
for our listeners out there, if you have
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For our special guest, Usdara Zaynab Zaynab Ansari,
and my co host Ismael. This is Maheem
signing off for the Magnum looks.