Yousuf Raza – Reflections on the Motorway Incident
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AI: Transcript ©
Let's begin.
We announced that we were going to share
some reflections on the motorway incident, the tragedy
that that found its way into our living
rooms that everyone heard about was deeply moved
by and shocked really.
So, that's what we wanted to discuss.
Usually, the discussion on this topic becomes political.
So, we wanted to bring a little bit
of a psychological perspective into it and there's
a lot of concern that people have.
So,
So, it's
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it's it's it's it's it's or that, we
can't we can't go around spreading stuff like
that.
Joy will have before they make an action
before they do anything.
We just take that away and just attribute
that to in this I don't see that
tendency or that line of inquiry pursuing pursuing
that I don't think it's taking us very
far.
they are doing this under some psychological disorder.
So we reduce their freedom of will, especially
if their personality is a disorder.
Dr. Yusuf, this is another type of mistake
that some people produce.
In every such act, it is very common
in the society.
Yes, all of these things affect people.
But can we take away their action on
this explanation?
Again, we are taking away.
Whether we blame the disease, or we blame
a particular issue of the society, or the
individual perpetrators.
But the biological element has a role to
play.
We can't deny that.
We can't deny that as psychiatrists, as scientists.
That's ridiculous.
And neither can we deny that whatever is
going on in society, the conceptions are also
related to it.
We will talk about those as well.
But if we just focus on that, and
make it our sole responsibility, that there is
nothing else.
If we just fix this, everything will be
fine.
That's as ridiculous.
That is as ridiculous.
Just before we move on, we talked about
illness and mental illness.
You must have seen that those who have
gone into a manic phase in bipolar, for
those of you listening, you must have heard
of bipolar, but we completely misunderstand it.
It is a rapid state, hyperactivity, talking a
lot, shouting a lot, making big claims.
It also has a lot of sexuality.
Right?
And we do note that the case studies
that we get, the description that we get
of mania, in Western countries, the degree of
sexual promiscuity that takes place there, in our
patients, everything considered, it is still very much
under control.
We will not find that our normally average
manic patient is going around sexually abusing people.
That's actually very surprising.
Technically, biologically, according to the definition of the
disease, they should be doing it.
But those social constraints are such that the
most manic of our patients will still be
able to muster some respect or some restraint
that they can control themselves.
So, if they can do it, if they
can do it, if people in mania can
control their sexual impulses such that they are
not going around abusing people, which is the
definition of the disease, they shouldn't, then that
is saying something.
That is saying something about, again, the freedom
of individuals.
Right.
So, yes, I completely agree with you.
In a way, our agenda is defined.
And for good reason, we have our social
causes that we stand up for.
after such an incident, to use that as
an opportunity to trumpet your social cause, that
if what we have been saying for a
long time happens, then there will be no
such incidents.
Okay, they may play a role, but there
is more to it.
There is definitely much more to it than
just that.
That you can blame the society and leave
it at that.
That's unfair.
And if we increase any one factor and
negate all the other factors, whether it is
fascism, or the opposite of it, which is
sexual suppression, whether it is that thing, or
the political and economic factors, whether it is
all that, but not a single factor plays
a role in it.
And even in the end, the choice is
the individual's own.
Even if all these factors are included, what
decision does the individual have to take at
that time?
The choice of that individual will always be
important.
And the legal system plays a role in
this choice.
Yes?
Absolutely.
Look, whatever happened, first of all, let's be
very clear that this is the tip of
the iceberg.
The thing that has attracted the attention of
the media, the attention of social media, and
everyone in the country knows, this is a
rarity that everyone has come to know.
But cases like this, incidents like this, this
is a matter of every other day.
This is a matter of every other day.
Even the last time something like this happened,
the Zainab incident, even at that time, there
were police officers very blatantly saying, at least
in their private gatherings, they were saying, we
get these reports every day.
Such child abuse cases are happening, sexual abuse
cases are happening, this case is getting so
much media hype, that it is now getting
political attention as well.
Otherwise, this is an ordinary thing.
This is a common thing.
So it's just that somebody was brave enough
to make it public and to accept that
it has happened.
It is like hats off, it usually does
not happen.
And to contain this, our education system is
to blame.
Our social system is to blame.
Our political system is to blame.
Our legal system is to blame.
Wherever we open up, there are layers and
layers and layers of corruption that needs to
be addressed.
That needs to be addressed.
As psychiatrists, we are to blame for not
playing our part in public education.
Let's be very honest in accepting that.
We, as a community of mental health professionals,
what have we done to educate people about
this, to educate ourselves first of all about
this, so we are able to actually contain
something.
Right, so we need to acknowledge that every
single...
As a nation, as a community of people,
we will not start taking individual responsibility.
That if this is happening in my society,
then somehow I am responsible.
And if life goes on as usual and
I don't do anything, nothing different in my
own family, in my own society, in my
own organization, in my own field of study,
then I am to blame.
This happened last week.
This incident happened because all the incidents that
have happened in the past, all of us
have played the blame game.
All of us...
No one has ever blamed anyone.
No one has ever blamed anyone.
Political...
Which is what he said, that there is...
One thing is that we should not talk
about such things.
There is stigma, it has become taboo.
There is sexuality.
Don't talk about it.
Keep it suppressed.
Talking about it is spreading fanaticism.
Etc.
etc.
etc.
All those things, that makes this problem a
huge problem that a lot of things are
spreading.
But then when someone wants to talk about
it, then it is sacrificed on the altar
of political ideologies.
It is just...
How will my political agenda move forward?
Should I show the other person down?
And should I show my cause and ideology
to people?
That is the real deal.
And the problem remains.
Actually, it gets worse.
It gets worse.
So...
We need to, as a community, identify that
I, as an individual, and the field that
I represent, the institution that I represent, what
role have I played?
How have we gone wrong?
Where have we gone?
And until we start doing that, this problem
is...
It threatens to go from bad to worse.
It threatens to go from bad to worse.
What happened after the Zainab incident?
Isn't there child sexual abuse in Pakistan?
Are children safe in Pakistan?
But where is that?
I went on TV when that happened.
Now the media doesn't talk about it anymore.
Now it's no longer an interesting case.
It's no longer...
It doesn't get you an audience anymore.
Nobody is talking...
Earlier, everyone was talking about how to save
children from child sexual abuse and what we
have to do.
And when I went to a live TV
show, they said, we will now commit, we
will be aware of this.
And a series of shows...
Nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
The commitments they made live, none of that
played out.
This hype is going to die and everyone
is going to blame everyone else and be
satisfied that we have done what we had
to do and nothing is going to be
different.
Women are not going to be any safer
in this situation, in this scenario.
Those people who have been going through these
type of incidents.
And we see in our practice that there
are a lot of people who are being
abused by their extended family members or even
family members.
And this is not something rare, the kind
of people we see.
So, what should we do, considering...
Because, as we said, this is just the
tip of the iceberg.
And there are a lot of things that
are not reported and they remain inside.
So, what should they do, considering the social
structure, the family structure, this might very well
happen that they don't get support from there.
Even they will be...
They will get resistance from there.
So, how do they come forward?
I think it is going to vary case
to case, as we said.
We need to understand that this always happens
in an environment where the perpetrator is confident
that they will get away with it.
That they will get away with it.
And where do they get this confidence from?
They get this confidence that the victim will
not speak up.
He will not complain.
He will not tell anyone.
He will not tell any other authority that
someone who is in a stronger position than
the perpetrator in the power spectrum should not
reach out to him.
So, the perpetrator looks at themselves as in
that particular environment strong enough to get away
with.
The victim is not going to speak up.
Definitely not speak up to the effect of
getting their voice heard by somebody who can
do something.
Right?
So, before we talk about what the victim
needs to be doing the people who have
that authority and power in their family needs
to be aware that this is not just
a possible it may even be very likely
that in their authority area somebody is doing
it.
And whoever whether it is a boy or
a girl or a woman they need to
have access to that authoritative figure that powerful
who can control it who can stop it.
The elders of the family whoever they are
between them and the vulnerable population who are
more likely to be abused there should not
be any barriers to communication there should not
be any barriers to talk about sexuality there
should not be any barriers they should not
have any hesitation this should be a conversation
that they should have had that the elders
should have had with the vulnerable population and
when we typically talk vulnerable population it doesn't
just include girls it also includes boys it
also includes boys and it does include women
of course as well so there is no
communication barrier they shouldn't hesitate they shouldn't do
that but we know like you said looking
at our family structure looking at our social
structure we refuse to learn we will say
all this we will tell we will repeat
that these conversations should happen there should not
be an obstacle that's not an obstacle it's
an excuse it is an excuse that we
are using to not have these conversations yet
for some reason people will have these self
-satisfying justifications in their head that it can
happen in the whole world but not in
my house with my sister with my daughter
it can't happen I don't know why we
have this this self-satisfying sense where they
are not going to have these conversations so
yes we have to reach out to the
victims and say that you need to find
someone you can talk to that you can
trust whoever is in your family who may
not be able to stop it perhaps if
it is an ongoing continuous process but at
least you get some level of support ideally
reach out to someone who can stop it
reach out to someone who can stop it
and side by side reach out to a
professional however possible reach out to a mental
health professional to see that if that has
happened in the past hopefully you have been
able to stop it somehow what psychological effects
has it had?
to talk about them to address them you
need to be reaching out you need to
be reaching out but before that perhaps I
am jumping the gun but before that you
need to find that voice to stop it
from happening to say no to say no
and that is going to be hard so
gather whatever support you can get wherever you
get support there is evil in the society
but there is good as well we need
to try to reach out to it as
much as possible so Dr. Yusuf can we
say you and me we are both parents
parents need to decide that either they are
going to discuss this with their children and
their vulnerable ones or they are going to
suffer for their whole lives they need to
decide that we our self imposed and fake
kind of I would say not fake but
harmful kind of shame we need to talk
about that might very well save the lives
of their loved ones absolutely we know the
cases we see the cases we see of
abuse as children or as adults the psychological
harm of abuse is in its place definitely
but more than that after disclosure the family
reaction that is the psychological harm if it
happens and by risking their lives that's what
that child is going through at that time
or even an adult tells an adult or
tells then the reaction is heard if they
are going through this for weeks or months
and finally they tell their mother let's say
and she gets the answer you must have
done something it was your fault I mean
and that's the reaction that unfortunately our society
when somebody the survivor of this incident was
brave enough to come out with what had
happened the same blame pointing fingers back at
her it was her fault for doing this
she should have taken more precautions she should
have it's no different and that's more traumatic
than the incident itself that in your defensive
attributions that to me or to someone to
me should I start talking about others in
such a way that I get satisfaction my
anxiety gets quenched that she did this mistake
which I don't do that's why this happened
to her right so that's that's how twisted
that reaction and that makes matters worse we
don't have to wait for an incident we
don't have to wait we have to create
that culture that those conversations are taking place
in the context of culture with proper conduct
proper we have morals, we have values while
taking care of values and morals these conversations
need to be had these conversations need to
happen whichever code of conduct we follow whichever
source of morality we have whichever religion we
have we will come to know that the
elders of that religion did not hesitate at
all whether it's about sexuality or whatever it
is about these things these are the fundamental
things that they are taught Taharat is one
of the first things that you will learn
if you read any Fiqh book there is
no hesitation how have we created this that
we are doing good and not talking about
these things we can't wait for incidents to
happen Yusuf, one more reaction usually comes from
family members and our patients tell us many
times that if you are saying that you
are being abused for 4 or 5 years
so why are you coming out now there
might be something else that you are being
abused for 4 or 5 years which is
something else which is a gain which is
in your eyes that's why you are saying
this doubting their narrative this is also one
thing that all of us people once they
are trapped they always think about this the
first question is why now there might be
something that you both were involved and now
the relationship has gone bad and now you
are saying this again we have to be
very mindful that looking at society's standards looking
at society's power structures the one who is
more privileged the one who is more authoritative
is should share the brunt of the blame
and unfortunately our dynamics are twisted we will
blame the kids first we will blame the
girls first and we have the audacity to
say that it is normal for men to
do this that's absolutely unintelligible as to how
that's become a dynamic that's prevalent in our
society for men it's okay the woman is
always to blame the girl is always to
blame whereas we don't realize that the privileged
position which is authority, power, strength dynamics go
in favor of the masculine figure those should
lead for them to be more responsible and
more accountable we can't do away with that
if somebody is younger, if somebody is a
student, if somebody is then it is understood
that some of those power dynamics were exploited
some of that authority was used it was
that authority that was used to exploit that
other individual regardless of whether there was an
involvement from the other side or not so
we do have to take that into consideration
and give the benefit of the doubt to
the person who has broken that silence under
which they have suffered this explanation why didn't
you speak for so many years it's not
easy to speak have you given that space
that comfort for them to immediately come to
you and talk to you after the first
incident happens do they even have that mental
state when the first incident happens it's absolutely
inexplicable for them what happened they are so
confused for the longest time to be able
to make sense of it and before the
society starts blaming them, they have already started
blaming themselves a false kind of guilt has
already been activated so we are dealing with
a lot of complications here and we are
not making matters easy by further blaming the
victims and giving the perpetrators a clean sheet
and Yusuf even if there was a relationship
that doesn't allow if one person wants to
end the relationship then the other person blackmails
him and exploits him for the next 2
-3 years absolutely that has to be if
another person is now reaching out for help
rather than helping we have we have led
for them to believe that you don't have
a way out, which is what leads to
a lot of self-harm and suicide if
no one else wants to help then so
be it so be it we have a
question I think this is an important question
that we should take on how does one
help someone deal with that when their whole
abusive experience is being denied yes Azam so
first of all if someone's account is being
denied if the denial is from one family
member then you that person should go to
another family member and if it is from
another family member then the third family member
even I would say that it is better
to tell your people outside your nuclear family
than being getting abused for a long time
but but but but but but but
but but but but
but but but but but but but but
but but but but but but but
but but but but but but but but
but but but but
but but but but
but but but but
but but but but but
but but
but but but And that is the big
one.
Acknowledging their suffering, acknowledging their pain, and trying
to establish, especially in the case of children,
that there is absolutely no blame on you.
There is absolutely no blame on you.
Of course, even if it's not children, the
case is pretty clear in front of you
as to who should have been the one
to blame.
You have to be very clear that you
are addressing that false guilt as best as
possible.
Azam, there is a question here that our
system is inefficient.
Our authorities are unreliable.
They themselves are involved in victim blaming.
Rather, from what we are shown, from what
we are told, at least in this incident,
there was some level of active involvement allegedly.
So, given that consideration, people don't trust those
institutions or those authorities to take their issues
to them.
What then?
Absolutely.
This concern is legitimate and this is very
serious.
But, having said that, if there is an
incident that has happened on behalf of a
family member, that's why we are saying repeatedly
to involve the family first.
So that someone in the family, some authority
figure in the family, leads the matter.
And that authority figure should be someone you
can trust.
But the incidents like this, the motorway incident,
yes, we have authorities like this.
But I cannot think of any substitute because
we are living here.
The issues in the authorities, their repair, that
is a different matter.
And we have to continue that as well.
But inform the authorities and at least now
we can say that use this medium, the
social medium, that it should be used as
bluntly or as vigorously as possible to pressurize
the authorities.
So that there is some considerable activity there
as well.
But yes, authorities are not efficient, they are
complicit in all this situation.
But I cannot think of any alternative because
we are living here.
Absolutely.
As far as corruption goes, doctors are not
free from corruption.
Right.
But when you are ill, you can't go
to a barber or a butcher simply because
doctors are corrupt.
Yeah, there is a lot of involvement of
pharmaceutical companies in medical practice.
We stop going to doctors.
We have to trust.
We don't have a choice.
There are good people.
So as ineffective, inefficient, corrupt as our police
may be.
We have to trust that there are good
people there as well.
We cannot take that same stance or same
attitude that we take a political stand against
all the authorities.
Then what will we do?
Are we anarchists?
We are in the process of promoting anarchy.
We are in the process of bringing our
own substitute.
We are in the process of becoming an
authority.
What can we do?
We acknowledge that there is corruption.
We raise a voice against that corruption and
we do whatever it is that we possibly
can to eradicate that.
But that has to be effective or that
can only be effective if you have support
from within that institution.
If we label all those institutions and say
that they are all like this, then what
are we going to do?
Emotions are in their place.
But we look to create as positive an
impact as we possibly can without going to
emotional extremes, as emotional as the situation may
be.
Okay, so there was another question related to
this.
Our institutions, our authorities, whether they are law
enforcement authorities, police or judiciary for that matter.
How much are they in need of an
awareness of psychology, of mental health?
Definitely, it must not be easy.
If they see such cases every day and
see corruption and sexual abuse, murder, all of
these things tend to become a norm for
them.
Shouldn't they be getting some sort of mental
health?
Yes, Yusuf Bhai, I think
in all our institutions, especially the law enforcing
institutions and even for that matter every institution.
Even in those institutions, we hear news that
sexual misconduct incidents are reported.
So, first of all, in any workplace where
people are working together, there should be some
sort of sexual misconduct education or awareness or
training.
That should be compulsory in any institute.
Whether it is a school or a college.
Two months ago, we saw an incident of
multiple incidents of harassment from teachers.
So, first of all, sexual misconduct should be
avoided and if it happens, how to report
it.
This should be done.
You asked about the police, the judiciary and
these people.
I would say that in a larger society,
we need an ongoing dialogue about these types
of events.
As you said in the beginning, when there
is an incident, it goes on for 5
-7 days and then the political TV shows
start again.
So, I would not agree that there should
be such training in those institutions only.
In Judiciary, Police.
There should be some sort of awareness in
the larger society.
Absolutely right.
So, we work towards general awareness.
Sorry, heavy, I said that.
But yes, the institutes that are directly dealing
with them.
Police, Judiciary, Emergency Doctors, Forensic Specialists and I
would say Psychologists and Psychiatrists.
In your and my 4 years of FCPS
training, how much have we been told how
to deal with such incidents?
How to deal with such survivors?
You know this, I know this.
Our standard training is not going to be
a part beyond a very superficial question at
best.
It is unless there was somebody in your
institute who was passionate about the subject and
would want there to be some sort of
contribution that they could make.
We were fortunate enough that Dr. Ayesha Minhas
was the Head of Child Psychiatry.
She was leading the campaign Ankahi, Child Sexual
Abuse Awareness.
And we did realize that in working for
that campaign and preparing for that campaign and
getting out our programs and workshops, there is
so much that we got to learn which
is not a part of our standard training.
Which is not a part of our standard.
And we know.
We talk about other institutions.
Police and Judiciary, they should take mental health
seriously.
How many Psychiatrists do they have access to?
How many Psychologists do they have access to?
What is the level of training and qualification
that those Psychiatrists, Psychologists have next to nothing?
But before offering them any sort of help
or support as a community, us as Psychiatrists,
we could not give that support to our
medical fraternity.
Our medical fraternity will not take us seriously.
How seriously did the class of 1st year
or 2nd year in Rawalpindi Medical College or
King Edward Medical College for that matter and
Medical Universities, how seriously did they take Behavioural
Sciences?
How seriously did they take their Psychiatry Award?
How seriously did the classes of Psychiatry Awards
and Behavioural Sciences take these subjects, these social
problems?
So we have layers upon layers of crises
that unfortunately, the more we scratch, the more
we dig, the more the problems come up.
The more the problems come up.
But, yeah, we start talking about it.
We start doing whatever is in our capacity
to identify.
Like I said, and I'm going to say
it again, every single one of us is
responsible that this happened.
And as long as we don't realize this,
things are not going to be different.
Things are not going to be different.
Azam, there is another question that is coming
around.
Again, the same thing that we said earlier
that there are * survivors who have lit
themselves on fire in front of police stations
and have not gotten justice.
Then in this situation, one thing that I
can I can possibly think of that there
are organizations, NGOs, who work on these issues,
who exist for these purposes.
Sahil and Roseanne are two organizations straight off
the top of my head that I can
identify.
They have made child sexual abuse one of
their, that is the main issue that they
address and look to help people with.
Whether it's about awareness or whether it's about
giving them legal assistance.
And I'm sure there's others as well.
So what we have to realize is that
then it is going to happen at an
NGO level.
And when it happens at an NGO level,
we will find that even after being at
the NGO level, NGOs have to cooperate with
these institutions.
We have to find good people within these
institutions and try to redress this issue with
them.
There is still no way to bypass these
institutions.
We still find ourselves going back to trying
to help or find help from within that
institution.
Yeah.
OK, so I think this is most of
what we said we would talk about.
Again, it is not an exhaustive discussion.
We could barely scratch the surface on some
of the issues that we felt were important.
If there is other issues that other questions
that people may have, they can feel free
to reach out to us.
As far as we are concerned, as far
as Saik Baithak is concerned, we are going
to continue to bring this up time and
time again.
We're not going to wait for an incident
to happen.
Around next month, we do have a plan
of having a program with Dr. Ayesha Minhas,
in particular, about child sexual abuse, to raise
awareness about it and to discuss all its
dimensions.
And we will probably do that again and
again and again as much as we possibly
can.
Bring all the different aspects of the subject
out in the public and not shy away
from having those conversations.
Those of you who have concerns related to
the issue, feel free to reach out.
Contact me, Aazam, either one of us, and
we will do what we can to help
and guide, Inshallah.
OK.
OK, Aazam, so we call it a day.
Thank you very much, everyone, for watching, listening.
If there is anything that you found that
was beneficial from here, feel free to clip
it out and share it with people who
you think would benefit from it.
Thank you all.
Until next week, this is Yusuf and Aazam.
We are signing off from Saik Baithak.
Assalamu alaikum.