Yasir Qadhi – Understanding Classical Aqidah Debates In Our Modern Context – Interview with Islam21c

Yasir Qadhi
AI: Summary ©
The "naughty person" movement is a step stone to sh lending, but not a shrock. It is a step stone to shrouds and requires shproofing and understanding the reality of Islam. The "naughty person" movement is a step stone to sh lending, but not a shrock, and is a step stone to shrouds. The "naughty person" movement is a step stone to sh lending, but not a shrock, and is a step stone to shrouds. The "naughty person" movement is a step stone to sh lending, but not a shrock, and is a step stone to shrouds.
AI: Transcript ©
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One good thing about the Salafi school of

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the 90s and 2000s was that the books

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you guys are reading are human developments.

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Understanding Wittgenstein's theory on language will actually help

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you understand the Sifat controversy.

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The problem is not the critique, the problem

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is the critique is lax adab and it

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goes from okay he's wrong to he's a

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kafir and he's a CIA agent.

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That's the problem right?

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How many flights do you want to pick

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today man?

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Forget me, go listen to these other three

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guys.

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We were talking about this in the car

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as well.

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You famously, you kind of moved away from

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a kind of let's say a passionately held

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worldview that you used to have to a

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different kind of someone could say a different

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worldview and it was quite public about it.

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Some of the criticism that might get from

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people is you know people like that they're

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just kind of flip-flopping around they're going

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to keep changing their worldviews and so my

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question is will you ever go back to

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windows?

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No, never.

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Okay.

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I have repented and there is no going

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back.

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Nice one.

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We've been kind of following obviously your discourse

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and some of your writings and your lectures

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and stuff.

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The last time we spoke was a good

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few years ago, all three of us but

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since then I've noticed you've been doing lots

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of great work in terms of reaching out

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to different scholars you spoke at you know

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alongside different scholars from different backgrounds, Ash'ari,

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Ath'ari and Maturidi and so forth but

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one thing that we I noticed and we

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spoke about briefly was you say that you

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don't take a position in that traditional historical

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kind of classification of Ahlus Sunnah but you

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say they're all correct, we should all get

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along.

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Why the ambiguity is something some people might

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be questioning?

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Jay, so this is a deep question I

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will ask you to allow me to elaborate

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a little bit on that and also a

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quick disclaimer that you've asked a bit of

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a technical question so if our viewers are

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not aware of any backgrounds of this nature

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then this probably is not a useful conversation

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for them.

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The disclaimer is this is an advanced topic

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that's what I'm trying to say.

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So let me answer at different tiers as

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well because this is an advanced topic.

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At level one I would say to the

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average Muslim that comes to me if he

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were to or she were to ask me

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which school should I follow I would say

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whichever of the mainstream schools that you find

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comfort in, whichever of the mainstream schools makes

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you feel the most love of Allah and

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his messenger, that would be my generic advice.

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Whether you go to a Deobandi, a Tablighi,

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a Salafi, a Ash'ari, a moderate Sufi,

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I need the mainstream I'm talking about.

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I'm not talking about the whirling diverges, I'm

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not talking about it would be be sensible

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here.

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I'm talking about the ones that we know,

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you know, the ones that we're aware of

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and and attracting with, you know, Jamaat-e

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-Islami, like these are the main Ahli Hadith,

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fi kullin khair, they're all good.

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I'm not saying they're all equally the same,

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I'm saying okay this is at the level

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one, okay.

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The level two would be that where somebody

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goes like okay but I've studied all of

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them and I kind of sort of see

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that there's good in all, you know, so

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now we're talking about somebody a little bit

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more muthaqqaf, a little bit more, you know,

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understanding and now he wants to know but

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I want to study a book of Aqeedah,

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I want to be involved for a few

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years in a madrasa, should I go to

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Jamaat-e-Islami or should I go to,

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you know, Al-Azhar or should I go

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to, you know, Malaysia or should I go

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to Timbuktu, all of these are different strands.

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Now he knows a little bit and he's

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interested in pursuing, to that person I would

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say understand what you're getting into in all

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of these and go to the one that

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is the most conducive to multiple factors, logistics,

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family, finances, the level of education, don't base

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the primary factor on the version of Aqeedah,

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I would literally say this, that is a

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factor.

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If you already understand these different schools to

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a good degree and now you want to

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further your Islamic studies then look at a

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whole bunch of faster, political safety, literally, you

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don't want to go to a place that

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there's going to be a civil war in

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a few years, you know, look at a

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bunch of factors and then go there and

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go there and absorb all they have to

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teach you but with an open mind, meaning

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understand had you gone to another university, another

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institute, you would have been exposed to an

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alternative that has completely proved itself internally, just

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like your current system is internally consistent, so

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go there with an open mind, understand that

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this is a great interpretation, a great understanding

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and Alhamdulillah there are other understandings out there,

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this is level two, okay.

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Does someone need to get into that though,

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even level one, you described some, okay choose

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whichever one you feel, well yeah Does someone

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need any, do you need?

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By need do you mean salvation?

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No, but by need do you mean like

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to fulfill intellectual curiosity?

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Yes, because if somebody is interested in well

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what is fiqh, what is Aqeedah, a complete

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lay person, like just go to your local

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masjid and study, that's what I would say,

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go to the one that you feel the

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most confident in.

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Accessibility.

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Accessibility, yeah, but it's not needed for salvation.

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We need some instructional recommendation to the person

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teaching that Who am I to instruct the

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third person, I mean the person is coming

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to me and wanting to be told, because

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again the way the world works, they want

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these simplistic answers and I'm not like that

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anymore.

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Maybe we need to provide that to them

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in a non-partisan way.

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So then you might become a part of

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the problem, because my goal by saying what

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I say, my goal is to put that

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kernel of open-mindedness even in this person

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here, my goal is that this person will

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understand that actually in this particular field I

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have studied and perhaps I am an expert

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and yet still I'm saying, you know, maybe

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that little idea is going to resonate with

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them for years to come.

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So that's level two I explained now.

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Level three is now the more, if you

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like, complex one.

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So level two is basically like you go,

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you study, you take a tradition, you come

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back knowing your own tradition and understanding that

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there are other traditions that are just as

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internally cohesive and just as internally validating as

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your own, so don't take them as the

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enemy.

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You do you and let them do others

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and we have bigger fights to fight.

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However, the problem with level two still remains

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and that is that at level two the

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average graduate who hasn't really critically thought still

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internally believes, and that's what he will have

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been taught, that my paradigm is the best

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paradigm.

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In fact, it is the only authentic paradigm

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and all of the other paradigms, okay, I

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don't doubt their sincerity, but they're wrong.

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In fact, they're misguided about aspects of theology.

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In fact, if depending on which school you

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go to, they're actually muftadir.

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Is this widespread?

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Is this feeling, this, this?

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If you go to any reputable mainstream seminary,

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yes, because that's the whole point.

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You are taught this is the particular aqeedah,

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this is the particular manhas that we're going

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to follow, this is the best way of

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doing fiqh, and anybody who goes beyond this,

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and these are all mainstream, those who go

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beyond them.

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Anybody who goes beyond this, accusations of misguidance,

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tabdir, and heresy come.

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The natural consequences of those views, is it

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said or unsaid, I mean the main?

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Depends again on which seminary and which era.

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I caught the version of my institute in

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the 90s in which it was very clearly

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said.

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Yeah.

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It was explicit from top to bottom.

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I believe that they have changed that a

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little bit, but you can't get away from

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it because in the end of the day,

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if you believe that this particular interpretation of

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Islam is valid, then automatically would imply the

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others are invalid, okay?

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So at some level, there will be this.

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So what happens, the average graduate comes back

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believing deep down inside that, yeah, my tradition

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is the best, and these other guys, you

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know, they kind of messed up along the

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way, but you know what?

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We're just gonna have to get along with

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them because we have bigger battles to fight.

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And this is how I was when I

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returned from my institute in 2005.

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Yeah.

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It's exactly how I was.

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My way is the only way.

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19 years ago.

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I know that the other ways are wrong.

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Yeah.

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But for the maslaha of the ummah, I

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will come and cooperate with them.

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Did you feel that in fiqh as well?

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Fiqh was never an issue for me because

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the institute that I studied with always emphasized

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comparative fiqh.

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So for me...

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So from day one they gave you Yeah,

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no, that was the book.

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You're trying to make a joke of it.

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It was my book.

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I studied pretty much cover to cover.

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That was the book I studied.

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We didn't do madhhab-based fiqh.

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Is there something in that where that led

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to you being a bit more relaxed when

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it comes to asr with madhhab?

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Yes, yes.

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Can you see something like that in aqeedah

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now?

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No, that's not happening in aqeedah.

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This is where the line is drawn.

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Something that could happen in aqeedah.

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That's what I'm trying to do.

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That's what I'm getting.

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Is that 0.5?

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That's 0.3 now.

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That's what I'm trying to do here.

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So one good thing about the Salafi school

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of the 90s and 2000s was that it

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really did teach us that fiqh is a

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human development and that Allah's shariah is distinct

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from human fiqh.

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This is an amazing thing that they actually

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taught us.

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That we understood the madhhab are attempts.

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Now to do so of course they opened

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up a Pandora's box and that Pandora's box

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is do-it-yourself fiqh.

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That Pandora's box is you don't have a

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consistent usool.

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That Pandora's box is zahiri, like you know

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literalism.

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So there are negatives that come with that

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type of opening up as well, yes.

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But the thing is that the average well

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-grounded Salafi student of knowledge will inherently be

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more open-minded to fiqh differences.

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Really?

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The average open-minded Salafi student of knowledge,

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not some strands of Salafism.

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Like the strands that study fiqh, you're talking

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about one Jordanian strand that's something else.

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But mainstream Salafi fiqh, they will understand that

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okay it's not that big of a deal.

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Even to say this it's not a matter

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of bid'ah or whatnot.

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It's not that big of a deal.

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Of course aqeedah, there is no compromise in

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aqeedah.

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That's taught by all of the schools.

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This is level two.

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My point with level two would be if

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you get to that level where you're going

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to work with others for the pragmatic good,

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that is good enough.

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But still there's a cognitive dissonance.

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Something in your heart that is going to

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create angst.

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And it's not healthy for the ummah.

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I was that person from 2005, I mean

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even before, but I mean my active da

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'wah was 2005 up until around 2015.

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It did not make sense to me.

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It just did not make sense to me.

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These are not evil people.

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And of course the worldview I held, we

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were not just accusing them of bid'ah.

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We were accusing them of shirk.

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If you know what I'm talking about.

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And for those who don't understand, you can

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listen to my library chants.

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I have them very clear.

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I've been very open about this.

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We're accusing them of shirk.

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How do you compromise on somebody whom you're

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accusing of committing shirk?

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And this is my cognitive dissonance.

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And then I know these people, I'm interacting

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with them.

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These people are more pious than I am.

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Their tahajjud is better than mine.

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Their actual love of Allah and His messenger

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is shining through.

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I don't see any shirk from them.

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What your teachers say in a closed room

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when it's only your group, that's just your

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own internal box.

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But when you actually go and interact with

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them, you see a different side of things.

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And it became clear to me that it's

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not that simple.

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But I couldn't understand why it's not shirk.

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This is, again, 15 years ago.

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Because what I had been taught, to me,

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it seemed as simple as 1 plus 1

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equals 2.

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My version of Islam was solid.

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Like, this is shirk.

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This is exactly the Quranic shirk.

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How come these guys don't see it?

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How come they don't see what I'm seeing?

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This is what led me to study for

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a few years directly from their books and

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ask their scholars very deep and probing questions.

00:12:49 --> 00:12:50

An open mind.

00:12:50 --> 00:12:51

And the difference was the open mind.

00:12:52 --> 00:12:54

Because when you go with blinders, when you

00:12:54 --> 00:12:58

go wanting to critique, when you go with

00:12:58 --> 00:13:03

the mindset of finding false, you're going to

00:13:03 --> 00:13:04

find what you want to find.

00:13:04 --> 00:13:07

I went with the mindset of, I don't

00:13:07 --> 00:13:08

think I've understood these guys.

00:13:08 --> 00:13:09

Not with the mindset, I want to become

00:13:09 --> 00:13:10

them.

00:13:10 --> 00:13:13

With the mindset of, clearly, I haven't understood

00:13:13 --> 00:13:14

what's going on here.

00:13:14 --> 00:13:16

I think we call it empathic listening.

00:13:16 --> 00:13:17

Empathic understanding and listening.

00:13:18 --> 00:13:19

So that was the mindset that I had.

00:13:20 --> 00:13:22

And of course, my master's and PhD is

00:13:22 --> 00:13:25

all in Islamic theology, developed Islamic theology.

00:13:25 --> 00:13:27

This is when, of course, a number of

00:13:27 --> 00:13:32

years, the conclusions I came to are a

00:13:32 --> 00:13:33

little bit technical.

00:13:33 --> 00:13:34

And this is where it gets awkward, because

00:13:34 --> 00:13:36

now the critics just jump up for the

00:13:36 --> 00:13:37

30 seconds because it's difficult to elaborate.

00:13:38 --> 00:13:39

And I understand, but I will try to

00:13:39 --> 00:13:40

elaborate in a nutshell.

00:13:41 --> 00:13:46

The conclusions that I have come to are

00:13:46 --> 00:13:50

that all of these strands of theology are

00:13:50 --> 00:13:56

human attempts shaped by, frankly, cultural and sociopolitical

00:13:56 --> 00:14:00

factors to answer questions that trouble the minds

00:14:00 --> 00:14:02

of generations long gone.

00:14:02 --> 00:14:04

And I've tried to explain this in my

00:14:04 --> 00:14:07

library chats about the attributes of God controversy.

00:14:08 --> 00:14:12

Islamic theology is obsessed with the attributes of

00:14:12 --> 00:14:12

God.

00:14:12 --> 00:14:15

All the Ibadia, the Zaidia, the Mu'tazila, the

00:14:15 --> 00:14:18

Ashaira, the Maturidia, before them the Kullabia, before

00:14:18 --> 00:14:21

them the every single group, the Karamiya, the

00:14:21 --> 00:14:23

groups that are not even in existence, maybe

00:14:23 --> 00:14:27

30% or 40% of any textbook

00:14:27 --> 00:14:29

of Aqeedah discusses God's attributes.

00:14:29 --> 00:14:33

And when you're introduced to your firqah, or

00:14:33 --> 00:14:35

even the other firqah, you don't even think,

00:14:35 --> 00:14:35

why?

00:14:35 --> 00:14:36

Okay, this is Aqeedah.

00:14:37 --> 00:14:41

But the third level, the three dimension, the

00:14:41 --> 00:14:44

higher level is like, hold on, why are

00:14:44 --> 00:14:46

we obsessed with Aqeedah when it comes to

00:14:46 --> 00:14:47

Sifat?

00:14:47 --> 00:14:49

Why is the Sifat and Aqeedah question?

00:14:49 --> 00:14:52

The Sahaba never debated Sifat.

00:14:52 --> 00:14:54

When you go in, and I've done my

00:14:54 --> 00:14:57

library chats, when the Muslims entered Damascus for

00:14:57 --> 00:14:59

the first time, and Aqeedah was a clean

00:14:59 --> 00:15:03

slate, there was no writing on the contents,

00:15:03 --> 00:15:03

right?

00:15:04 --> 00:15:08

They came across Christians arguing over the nature

00:15:08 --> 00:15:10

of God, and the nature of God's attributes,

00:15:10 --> 00:15:13

and how Jesus and God are interconnected or

00:15:13 --> 00:15:14

not, and how is the logos, and is

00:15:14 --> 00:15:16

the logos created, or the logos separate, or

00:15:16 --> 00:15:17

the logos as God?

00:15:18 --> 00:15:20

This is well known, and when they found

00:15:20 --> 00:15:22

all of this controversy, and their slates are

00:15:22 --> 00:15:25

blank, it's human nature, that controversy is going

00:15:25 --> 00:15:27

to get a whiff onto our slates.

00:15:27 --> 00:15:29

It's just like today with other things like

00:15:29 --> 00:15:31

LGBT, everything, everything.

00:15:31 --> 00:15:33

But the difference is that there was a

00:15:33 --> 00:15:34

clean slate back then.

00:15:35 --> 00:15:37

So on a blank slate, the first domino

00:15:37 --> 00:15:38

then becomes the Sifat controversy.

00:15:39 --> 00:15:41

So rather than saying, is Jesus nature one?

00:15:41 --> 00:15:42

Is Jesus part of God?

00:15:42 --> 00:15:44

It became, are the Sifat of Allah one,

00:15:45 --> 00:15:47

or the Sifat muta'didah, or the Sifat this

00:15:47 --> 00:15:47

and that, right?

00:15:47 --> 00:15:49

And then, is the logos created or not

00:15:49 --> 00:15:49

created?

00:15:49 --> 00:15:50

Oh, what is logos?

00:15:51 --> 00:15:51

Kalam.

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53

Is the Kalam Allah makhloo ghair makhlooq?

00:15:53 --> 00:15:55

You literally copy and paste, and then I

00:15:55 --> 00:15:58

mentioned John of Damascus, go listen to my

00:15:58 --> 00:16:00

library channel, the origin of the, John of

00:16:00 --> 00:16:03

Damascus' analysis becomes the beginning of I'tizal.

00:16:04 --> 00:16:08

Literally, the early Mu'tazila are copying, copying and

00:16:08 --> 00:16:09

pasting John of Damascus.

00:16:09 --> 00:16:10

That's where Mu'tazilism begins.

00:16:11 --> 00:16:13

Then as a reaction, the Atharis come along,

00:16:13 --> 00:16:16

the proto-Atharis, the proto-Sunnis, and say,

00:16:16 --> 00:16:18

no, no, no, actually Allah has a Yed

00:16:18 --> 00:16:20

that is actually a Yed, and we believe

00:16:20 --> 00:16:20

in an actual Yed.

00:16:21 --> 00:16:22

The Sahaba didn't say like this.

00:16:22 --> 00:16:24

I'm not saying they didn't believe it, because

00:16:24 --> 00:16:27

what the Sahaba believed is a back projection

00:16:27 --> 00:16:28

of later groups onto them.

00:16:28 --> 00:16:30

We don't know what they actually believed, right?

00:16:30 --> 00:16:31

We really don't know.

00:16:31 --> 00:16:32

We're just assuming.

00:16:33 --> 00:16:35

So my point is that the 3D analysis,

00:16:35 --> 00:16:38

the deeper analysis, you understand the entire Sifat

00:16:38 --> 00:16:41

controversy is a contrived one as a response

00:16:41 --> 00:16:44

to a socio-cultural phenomenon that took place

00:16:44 --> 00:16:45

at a certain period in time.

00:16:46 --> 00:16:48

Allah did not reveal the Sifat controversy.

00:16:48 --> 00:16:50

The Sahaba were not involved in the Sifat

00:16:50 --> 00:16:50

controversy.

00:16:51 --> 00:16:53

So once you understand the origin, number one.

00:16:54 --> 00:16:57

Number two, you understand we have the benefit

00:16:57 --> 00:16:59

of hindsight that they did not have.

00:17:00 --> 00:17:01

This is a key point.

00:17:02 --> 00:17:05

We have 13 centuries of looking at what

00:17:05 --> 00:17:08

actually happened because of the Sifat controversies, whereas

00:17:08 --> 00:17:12

the founders of these movements and the icons,

00:17:12 --> 00:17:14

Ibn Taymiyyah and Ghazali and al-Razi did

00:17:14 --> 00:17:15

not have what we have.

00:17:15 --> 00:17:17

This is not to say we're better than

00:17:17 --> 00:17:18

them, because again, the critics come and say,

00:17:18 --> 00:17:19

oh, so you think you are?

00:17:19 --> 00:17:23

No, we are standing on the shoulders of

00:17:23 --> 00:17:23

giants.

00:17:23 --> 00:17:24

But here's the point.

00:17:24 --> 00:17:27

Because we're standing on their shoulders, because of

00:17:27 --> 00:17:29

their shoulders, we see what they cannot see.

00:17:30 --> 00:17:31

It doesn't make us better than them.

00:17:32 --> 00:17:34

It's just that they paved the way.

00:17:35 --> 00:17:36

They did so much.

00:17:36 --> 00:17:39

Now we have the opportunity to look back.

00:17:39 --> 00:17:41

And what does this show us?

00:17:41 --> 00:17:44

These 13 centuries of debates, what did we

00:17:44 --> 00:17:44

gain by them?

00:17:45 --> 00:17:47

It's awkward to say this.

00:17:48 --> 00:17:49

It's like the kid who cried out, you

00:17:49 --> 00:17:51

know, the emperor's no clothes, if you know

00:17:51 --> 00:17:51

the parable here.

00:17:52 --> 00:17:55

But the reality is, all of these strands

00:17:55 --> 00:17:58

were bickering and fighting over semantics.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:01

That's just a fact.

00:18:01 --> 00:18:05

Those who affirmed Allah comes down, istawa, or

00:18:05 --> 00:18:08

yanzil haqiqatan, versus those who said, yanzil is

00:18:08 --> 00:18:09

a metaphor.

00:18:09 --> 00:18:11

They're both praying tahajjud to Allah.

00:18:12 --> 00:18:12

Yeah.

00:18:12 --> 00:18:13

In the last day of the night.

00:18:13 --> 00:18:13

Yes.

00:18:13 --> 00:18:16

Those who said, Allah is yasma' bi-sama

00:18:16 --> 00:18:17

'in huwa hu, wa la ilaha illa isa

00:18:17 --> 00:18:17

huwa lana.

00:18:18 --> 00:18:19

And basically, they're trying to make ta'weel

00:18:19 --> 00:18:20

of sama' of Allah, which is the mu'tazila,

00:18:21 --> 00:18:21

right?

00:18:21 --> 00:18:22

And the asha'ara said this, and the

00:18:22 --> 00:18:25

maturidi said this, and the athari said this.

00:18:25 --> 00:18:27

In the end of the day, all of

00:18:27 --> 00:18:29

them, including the mu'tazila, they're raising their hands

00:18:29 --> 00:18:31

to Allah when their son is sick, and

00:18:31 --> 00:18:33

they're saying, ya shafi, cure my son.

00:18:34 --> 00:18:36

It's just how you're phrasing.

00:18:36 --> 00:18:39

It's just a matter of philosophy of language.

00:18:39 --> 00:18:40

That's how it is, right?

00:18:41 --> 00:18:43

But there's a, sorry to interrupt, there's a

00:18:43 --> 00:18:45

qualitative, there's a difference between that, I'm completely

00:18:45 --> 00:18:48

with you there, but when you started this

00:18:48 --> 00:18:52

convo, when it comes to tawhid and shirk,

00:18:52 --> 00:18:55

in terms of somebody saying, oh, so-and

00:18:55 --> 00:18:58

-so, oh, you know, be this and that,

00:18:58 --> 00:18:59

or saint so-and-so.

00:19:00 --> 00:19:02

Even this goes back to an understanding of

00:19:02 --> 00:19:06

what exactly is intended, and what defines a

00:19:06 --> 00:19:06

god.

00:19:07 --> 00:19:10

But do you see that as a kind

00:19:10 --> 00:19:11

of consequent?

00:19:11 --> 00:19:13

No, it's a separate controversy to this one.

00:19:13 --> 00:19:15

I'm giving the sifat one, and what you're

00:19:15 --> 00:19:17

talking about is a distinct controversy which is

00:19:17 --> 00:19:19

not directly related to sifat.

00:19:19 --> 00:19:21

The claim is made that it is related,

00:19:21 --> 00:19:22

but it's not related.

00:19:22 --> 00:19:24

But wait, does it map onto the schools

00:19:24 --> 00:19:24

historically?

00:19:25 --> 00:19:26

Not the early schools, no.

00:19:27 --> 00:19:30

This controversy is coming after the 7th, 6th,

00:19:30 --> 00:19:32

7th century, whereas the controversy of the sifat

00:19:32 --> 00:19:34

is from the 2nd to the 5th century,

00:19:34 --> 00:19:35

the formations are done, okay?

00:19:36 --> 00:19:38

So, and this is what I love to

00:19:38 --> 00:19:38

do.

00:19:39 --> 00:19:42

My actual passion and forte, my PhD, my

00:19:42 --> 00:19:45

academic research that I do at the advanced

00:19:45 --> 00:19:47

level is the development of ideas, develop Islamic

00:19:47 --> 00:19:48

theology.

00:19:48 --> 00:19:50

That's what I love to do, okay?

00:19:51 --> 00:19:52

Political history, military history, that comes on the

00:19:52 --> 00:19:53

side.

00:19:53 --> 00:19:55

The real history that I write papers on,

00:19:55 --> 00:19:57

I publish papers on, my dissertation is on,

00:19:57 --> 00:20:00

is in my library chats, is ideas of

00:20:00 --> 00:20:00

aqeedah.

00:20:01 --> 00:20:05

So once you understand that it sounds sacrilegious

00:20:05 --> 00:20:08

to the average student of knowledge, the aqeedah

00:20:08 --> 00:20:11

books you guys are reading are human developments,

00:20:11 --> 00:20:16

trying to solve problems that are relevant to

00:20:16 --> 00:20:18

certain eras and epochs.

00:20:18 --> 00:20:21

All of a sudden then, we have to

00:20:21 --> 00:20:23

ask ourselves, do I need to teach my

00:20:23 --> 00:20:24

kids the sifat controversy?

00:20:26 --> 00:20:29

Do I need to brainwash and indoctrinate them

00:20:29 --> 00:20:30

with one school versus the other?

00:20:30 --> 00:20:33

Do I need to replicate the hatred that

00:20:33 --> 00:20:36

existed in 3rd century Baghdad, maybe even legit,

00:20:36 --> 00:20:38

because they didn't understand the repercussions.

00:20:38 --> 00:20:39

I'm not even blaming them, I'm not even

00:20:39 --> 00:20:43

faulting them, but we have 13 centuries, and

00:20:43 --> 00:20:45

again, Allah protect us all.

00:20:45 --> 00:20:46

I mean, may Allah protect.

00:20:46 --> 00:20:47

I don't like the cancel culture, I don't

00:20:47 --> 00:20:49

like the refutation culture, and I always have

00:20:49 --> 00:20:52

to make these caveats here.

00:20:52 --> 00:20:55

May the intelligent people understand what I'm saying

00:20:55 --> 00:20:55

here.

00:20:56 --> 00:21:00

The Ibadis of Oman are mu'tazili in creed.

00:21:01 --> 00:21:04

Their worship of Allah is no less, frankly

00:21:04 --> 00:21:05

it is better than most Sunni lands.

00:21:06 --> 00:21:08

Frankly, if you've ever visited Oman.

00:21:09 --> 00:21:14

Their akhlaq, their tahajjud, their Quran, their strong

00:21:14 --> 00:21:15

iman.

00:21:16 --> 00:21:17

I know the critics are going to go

00:21:17 --> 00:21:18

absolutely crazy with this.

00:21:18 --> 00:21:21

I'm not saying mu'tazilism is correct, but I'm

00:21:21 --> 00:21:23

saying the way you guys made it out

00:21:23 --> 00:21:26

to be the brother of shaitan, no, it's

00:21:26 --> 00:21:26

not.

00:21:27 --> 00:21:29

I think partly...

00:21:29 --> 00:21:30

So let me finish this one quick.

00:21:30 --> 00:21:35

So the accusation that if you say X,

00:21:35 --> 00:21:40

this will imply Y, that syllogism is a

00:21:40 --> 00:21:42

figment of the imagination of the critic.

00:21:43 --> 00:21:47

If you deny Allah's then it's going to

00:21:47 --> 00:21:47

happen.

00:21:47 --> 00:21:49

Well this then is from you, not from

00:21:49 --> 00:21:50

the people themselves.

00:21:50 --> 00:21:53

The people who actually hold it, don't go

00:21:53 --> 00:21:53

there.

00:21:53 --> 00:21:55

And this is what I'm saying when I

00:21:55 --> 00:21:56

say we have the hindsight of history.

00:21:57 --> 00:21:58

13 centuries, we look back.

00:21:59 --> 00:22:00

The Zaydis of Yemen are mu'tazili.

00:22:01 --> 00:22:04

They're praying tahajjud and doing everything as well,

00:22:04 --> 00:22:04

you know what I'm saying.

00:22:05 --> 00:22:09

They clearly, the i'tizaad, they believe, the Ibadis

00:22:09 --> 00:22:10

believe the Quran is makhluq.

00:22:10 --> 00:22:12

The Ibadis believe the Quran is makhluq.

00:22:12 --> 00:22:15

Their grand mufti is on YouTube literally defending

00:22:15 --> 00:22:17

and then saying, but Sunnis, he literally said,

00:22:17 --> 00:22:19

but Sunnis, you guys made this a bigger

00:22:19 --> 00:22:20

issue than it needed to be.

00:22:20 --> 00:22:22

We still recite the Quran, take the sharia,

00:22:22 --> 00:22:23

that's his view, I'm not saying I agree

00:22:23 --> 00:22:24

with it, right.

00:22:24 --> 00:22:26

And look at their laws, and look at

00:22:26 --> 00:22:26

the people.

00:22:27 --> 00:22:30

So what I'm saying is, firstly, the origin

00:22:30 --> 00:22:31

of the controversy.

00:22:32 --> 00:22:36

Secondly, the hindsight that we now have, okay.

00:22:36 --> 00:22:39

And then thirdly, at a deeper level, we

00:22:39 --> 00:22:43

have access to various disciplines of knowledge that

00:22:43 --> 00:22:46

earlier scholars did not have, that we can

00:22:46 --> 00:22:49

employ as tools to better understand, and of

00:22:49 --> 00:22:51

them is the philosophy of language.

00:22:52 --> 00:22:54

For example, with the sifat controversy, we now

00:22:54 --> 00:22:58

understand the usage of language, the functionality of

00:22:58 --> 00:22:58

language.

00:22:59 --> 00:23:02

Yes, true, Ibn Taymiyyah, mashaAllah, tabarakAllah, he did

00:23:02 --> 00:23:04

contribute, you know, a little bit in the

00:23:04 --> 00:23:06

nominalism, and great.

00:23:06 --> 00:23:08

But the level we now have, because that's

00:23:08 --> 00:23:10

what the modern world has done, it really

00:23:10 --> 00:23:12

has gone to a level of ilm that

00:23:12 --> 00:23:14

is unprecedented in human history.

00:23:14 --> 00:23:18

And frankly, I mean, understanding Wittgenstein's theory on

00:23:19 --> 00:23:21

language will actually help you understand the sifat

00:23:21 --> 00:23:24

controversy to the point of it making a

00:23:24 --> 00:23:25

non-controversy.

00:23:25 --> 00:23:29

You can literally take Wittgenstein's theories of language,

00:23:29 --> 00:23:32

look at the controversy, and collapse it all,

00:23:32 --> 00:23:35

and say, well, actually, there is no controversy.

00:23:35 --> 00:23:36

Have you thought about writing about that?

00:23:36 --> 00:23:39

I have, but again, time is always precious.

00:23:39 --> 00:23:41

My problem is I'm spread so thin in

00:23:41 --> 00:23:41

different ways.

00:23:41 --> 00:23:43

So to finish this off, so that you

00:23:43 --> 00:23:45

look at the origin, you look at hindsight,

00:23:46 --> 00:23:48

and then you look at ilm that we

00:23:48 --> 00:23:50

now have that they didn't have.

00:23:50 --> 00:23:54

Put all together, and you start to realize

00:23:54 --> 00:23:58

much of what we took as being important

00:23:58 --> 00:24:00

was actually superfluous.

00:24:00 --> 00:24:03

We don't need the sifat controversy to be

00:24:03 --> 00:24:03

good Muslims.

00:24:04 --> 00:24:06

And if you are in ash'ari, or

00:24:06 --> 00:24:08

maturidi, or mu'tazili, I know this is going

00:24:08 --> 00:24:10

to get me cancelled immediately, in the sifat

00:24:10 --> 00:24:12

issue, because the mu'tazila, here's the point, the

00:24:12 --> 00:24:14

mu'tazila, the main issue with us and them

00:24:14 --> 00:24:14

is qadr.

00:24:15 --> 00:24:17

I say, and I will say this, may

00:24:17 --> 00:24:19

Allah protect me from, the problem is not

00:24:19 --> 00:24:20

the critique.

00:24:20 --> 00:24:22

The problem is the critique is lax adab,

00:24:22 --> 00:24:24

and it goes from, okay, he's wrong, to

00:24:24 --> 00:24:25

he's a kafir, and he's a CIA agent.

00:24:25 --> 00:24:26

That's the problem, right?

00:24:26 --> 00:24:27

The problem is like, he's wrong.

00:24:27 --> 00:24:29

Fine, I know you're going to follow mainstream

00:24:29 --> 00:24:30

sunni, thought you were going to say I'm

00:24:30 --> 00:24:32

wrong, I get it, but don't make it

00:24:32 --> 00:24:33

bigger than it is, okay?

00:24:33 --> 00:24:37

I am saying, the modern ibadi movement has

00:24:37 --> 00:24:39

issues, but sifat is not one of them

00:24:39 --> 00:24:41

that's going to cause any issues between us

00:24:41 --> 00:24:41

and them.

00:24:41 --> 00:24:43

They're good people in the end of the

00:24:43 --> 00:24:43

day.

00:24:43 --> 00:24:44

We see this, ra'ya al'ayn.

00:24:45 --> 00:24:47

So we learn from all three of these

00:24:47 --> 00:24:49

issues, the origin, the history, and the ilm

00:24:49 --> 00:24:51

that we now have, that we can look

00:24:51 --> 00:24:54

back to, that the sifat controversy was completely

00:24:54 --> 00:24:56

blown out of proportion, and you don't need

00:24:56 --> 00:24:57

it to be a good Muslim.

00:24:58 --> 00:25:00

So when you ask me, what are you?

00:25:02 --> 00:25:07

You understand, I don't believe in these boxes

00:25:07 --> 00:25:09

anymore, because I understand where the controversy came

00:25:09 --> 00:25:12

from, and I empathize, I know this sounds

00:25:12 --> 00:25:13

weird, with all of them.

00:25:13 --> 00:25:16

I genuinely see where they're coming from, and

00:25:16 --> 00:25:18

I don't think any one of them is

00:25:18 --> 00:25:18

divine.

00:25:19 --> 00:25:23

They're all human attempts to answer questions that

00:25:23 --> 00:25:24

were problems of their time.

00:25:25 --> 00:25:27

It's a historical controversy.

00:25:27 --> 00:25:28

I like studying it.

00:25:28 --> 00:25:30

I don't find myself having to carry a

00:25:30 --> 00:25:32

card about one of these past issues.

00:25:33 --> 00:25:35

So on the shaykh, look, so there's three

00:25:35 --> 00:25:36

options for the general population now.

00:25:36 --> 00:25:41

Is it, one, that we minimize the engagement

00:25:41 --> 00:25:44

with understanding qida in those classical boxes as

00:25:44 --> 00:25:45

one option?

00:25:46 --> 00:25:50

Number two, we deconstruct it to then just

00:25:50 --> 00:25:51

educate people?

00:25:51 --> 00:25:54

Or three, should we use a blank slate

00:25:54 --> 00:25:57

and re-look at qida for modernity?

00:25:57 --> 00:25:59

Excellent question, and that is a very profound

00:25:59 --> 00:26:00

question, Mr Omar Suleiman.

00:26:01 --> 00:26:01

I love it.

00:26:02 --> 00:26:04

Number one, should we?

00:26:05 --> 00:26:06

Yeah, minimize.

00:26:07 --> 00:26:08

So profoundly you forgot the question.

00:26:09 --> 00:26:15

It was, we should minimize the controversy at

00:26:15 --> 00:26:16

the level of the masses.

00:26:16 --> 00:26:17

This is what I've done.

00:26:18 --> 00:26:22

On a personal note, I was obsessed with

00:26:22 --> 00:26:24

the sifat controversy.

00:26:25 --> 00:26:26

I mastered it.

00:26:26 --> 00:26:28

Literally, my master's was on the sifat.

00:26:28 --> 00:26:30

My master's published in Medina, 800 pages.

00:26:30 --> 00:26:31

Go look it up.

00:26:32 --> 00:26:33

Jahab ibn Safwan and his, you know, it's

00:26:33 --> 00:26:34

all sifat.

00:26:34 --> 00:26:37

800 pages of master's, alhamdulillah, and I'm not

00:26:37 --> 00:26:41

trying to paragraph stuff, but it was awarded

00:26:41 --> 00:26:43

and it was published and it was like

00:26:43 --> 00:26:43

number one in my class.

00:26:43 --> 00:26:44

It's there.

00:26:44 --> 00:26:45

You can read it.

00:26:45 --> 00:26:48

And I came back to this country literally

00:26:49 --> 00:26:53

yaqeen, that the sifat as understood by ibn

00:26:53 --> 00:26:55

Taymiyyah and his group is the correct understanding

00:26:55 --> 00:26:56

of Allah.

00:26:56 --> 00:26:58

There is no question in my mind that

00:26:58 --> 00:27:00

all the others are batir or whatnot, but

00:27:00 --> 00:27:02

again, that's your one-dimensional view.

00:27:02 --> 00:27:04

You start doing 2D and 3D view and

00:27:04 --> 00:27:05

all of a sudden you understand, okay, ibn

00:27:05 --> 00:27:08

Taymiyyah is right, but he's not necessarily only

00:27:08 --> 00:27:08

right.

00:27:09 --> 00:27:10

Ash'ar are also right in their way

00:27:10 --> 00:27:11

and Mu'tazil are also right in their way.

00:27:11 --> 00:27:12

It all goes back to your paradigm, right?

00:27:13 --> 00:27:16

So I stopped talking about these controversies at

00:27:16 --> 00:27:17

the mass level completely.

00:27:18 --> 00:27:19

Look at my khutbah and durus.

00:27:20 --> 00:27:21

Ignored completely.

00:27:21 --> 00:27:23

Recently, there was a massive debacle between the

00:27:23 --> 00:27:25

Ash'aris and Salafis online and I got

00:27:25 --> 00:27:26

angry at both sides.

00:27:26 --> 00:27:28

I reached out on behind the scenes because

00:27:28 --> 00:27:29

I'm not on social media.

00:27:29 --> 00:27:30

I reached out to people on both sides.

00:27:31 --> 00:27:32

There's a genocide going on.

00:27:32 --> 00:27:33

Leave these issues.

00:27:34 --> 00:27:37

So at the mass level, yes, completely bypass.

00:27:37 --> 00:27:39

Your second question, should they be taught with

00:27:39 --> 00:27:39

wisdom?

00:27:40 --> 00:27:43

They should be taught at the madrasah level.

00:27:44 --> 00:27:46

Yes, because you can't reinvent the wheel.

00:27:47 --> 00:27:49

So when you go to a higher seminary,

00:27:49 --> 00:27:53

when you go to any mainstream school, understandably,

00:27:53 --> 00:27:56

the school has to teach you 1,400

00:27:56 --> 00:28:00

years of history, intellectual history, and understandably, you're

00:28:00 --> 00:28:01

not going to get rid of the schools.

00:28:02 --> 00:28:05

I'm not challenging Ash'arism, Atherism, Salafism.

00:28:05 --> 00:28:06

I keep on saying I've moved on.

00:28:06 --> 00:28:07

I've always used this term.

00:28:08 --> 00:28:09

I didn't switch sides.

00:28:09 --> 00:28:10

Moved on.

00:28:10 --> 00:28:13

I've been very precise because I no longer

00:28:13 --> 00:28:14

view these schools as being divine.

00:28:14 --> 00:28:16

I really don't.

00:28:16 --> 00:28:18

Allah didn't reveal Salafism, nor did he reveal

00:28:18 --> 00:28:19

Ash'arism.

00:28:19 --> 00:28:20

I can show you human elements.

00:28:20 --> 00:28:22

I can show you evolution in all of

00:28:22 --> 00:28:23

these schools.

00:28:23 --> 00:28:25

I can show you spectrums within them.

00:28:25 --> 00:28:26

When you tell me to be a Salafi,

00:28:26 --> 00:28:27

I will say, which version?

00:28:27 --> 00:28:28

Abu Ya'la's version?

00:28:29 --> 00:28:30

Or Ibn Aqi's version?

00:28:30 --> 00:28:31

Or Ibn Jawzi's version?

00:28:31 --> 00:28:32

Or Ibn Taymiyyah's version?

00:28:32 --> 00:28:32

Yeah, that one.

00:28:33 --> 00:28:33

Oh, that one?

00:28:33 --> 00:28:33

Okay.

00:28:34 --> 00:28:35

If you tell me to be an Ibn

00:28:35 --> 00:28:36

Taymiyyah, who's going to interpret Ibn Taymiyyah?

00:28:36 --> 00:28:38

Because after Ibn Taymiyyah, there's no additions, right?

00:28:38 --> 00:28:40

The same with the Ash'aris.

00:28:40 --> 00:28:41

Which version of Ash'arism?

00:28:42 --> 00:28:42

Ghazalian version?

00:28:42 --> 00:28:43

Razian version?

00:28:43 --> 00:28:43

Which version?

00:28:43 --> 00:28:45

Again, I can show you evolution.

00:28:45 --> 00:28:46

I can show you spectrum.

00:28:46 --> 00:28:48

But I think part of it, I sense

00:28:48 --> 00:28:51

that none of what you said is that

00:28:51 --> 00:28:51

weird.

00:28:51 --> 00:28:53

You keep saying that, this is going to

00:28:53 --> 00:28:54

get me cancelled or whatever.

00:28:54 --> 00:28:55

I think the reason why you feel that

00:28:55 --> 00:28:59

way is because you dedicated so much research

00:28:59 --> 00:29:00

and learning.

00:29:01 --> 00:29:04

And you're seeing that because from your expertise,

00:29:04 --> 00:29:05

from your background.

00:29:05 --> 00:29:07

When it comes to the average...

00:29:07 --> 00:29:09

Oh, what I'm saying, the average layman will

00:29:09 --> 00:29:10

understand 100%.

00:29:10 --> 00:29:11

Not the layman.

00:29:11 --> 00:29:13

Even people that delve in these books.

00:29:13 --> 00:29:15

I think you give them more credit than

00:29:15 --> 00:29:15

I do.

00:29:15 --> 00:29:16

I'll be honest with you.

00:29:16 --> 00:29:19

Because for most people, the tradition that they

00:29:19 --> 00:29:20

subscribe to is the religion of Islam.

00:29:21 --> 00:29:24

But I think maybe subconsciously you're bringing a

00:29:24 --> 00:29:27

lot of your own expertise, your own background,

00:29:27 --> 00:29:28

your own baggage maybe.

00:29:28 --> 00:29:29

Maybe.

00:29:29 --> 00:29:31

But look at what's happening over the last

00:29:31 --> 00:29:35

few weeks online between people that are worthy

00:29:35 --> 00:29:36

of respect.

00:29:37 --> 00:29:41

Mainstream Western clerics battling it out while bombs

00:29:41 --> 00:29:43

are dropping in Gaza over does Allah have

00:29:43 --> 00:29:44

a hand or not.

00:29:44 --> 00:29:46

Over does Allah have Istawa or not.

00:29:47 --> 00:29:49

The massive debate is taking place right now

00:29:49 --> 00:29:50

as we speak.

00:29:51 --> 00:29:52

It's still going on right now.

00:29:52 --> 00:29:54

And these are mainstream sheikhs, not little kids.

00:29:55 --> 00:29:56

These are people with respect.

00:29:58 --> 00:30:00

I'm not saying there aren't people who are

00:30:00 --> 00:30:00

still...

00:30:00 --> 00:30:01

But these are icons.

00:30:01 --> 00:30:01

Yeah.

00:30:02 --> 00:30:02

That's what I'm saying.

00:30:02 --> 00:30:04

So I think there are always going to

00:30:04 --> 00:30:04

be people like this.

00:30:04 --> 00:30:06

And then your third point, deconstruction.

00:30:06 --> 00:30:09

That's what I'm doing at the advanced level,

00:30:09 --> 00:30:11

which is my library chats, which is the

00:30:11 --> 00:30:13

Islamic Seminary of America, where I teach the

00:30:13 --> 00:30:13

students.

00:30:13 --> 00:30:15

In order to get to that level, you

00:30:15 --> 00:30:16

need to have a background.

00:30:16 --> 00:30:18

It cannot be done just as a public

00:30:18 --> 00:30:18

lecture.

00:30:18 --> 00:30:21

The final level was re-looking at aqeedah

00:30:21 --> 00:30:22

in Lyon.

00:30:22 --> 00:30:22

I'm getting there.

00:30:22 --> 00:30:23

I'm getting there.

00:30:23 --> 00:30:26

So deconstruction is taking place, and it's taking

00:30:26 --> 00:30:27

place.

00:30:27 --> 00:30:29

And I encourage everybody who has a solid

00:30:29 --> 00:30:33

background and who is resonating with aspects of

00:30:33 --> 00:30:33

what I'm saying.

00:30:33 --> 00:30:35

I say this to anybody who says, I

00:30:35 --> 00:30:36

want to study with the Islamic Seminary.

00:30:36 --> 00:30:37

I say, listen to my library chats.

00:30:38 --> 00:30:41

If you find my library chats appealing to

00:30:41 --> 00:30:44

you, these are tidbits of the real philosophy

00:30:44 --> 00:30:45

of the seminary.

00:30:45 --> 00:30:45

Go ahead and apply.

00:30:46 --> 00:30:47

And it is an accredited seminary.

00:30:47 --> 00:30:48

You're going to get a master's degree that

00:30:48 --> 00:30:51

is accredited by the western world.

00:30:52 --> 00:30:53

So apply to that, because that's where we

00:30:53 --> 00:30:54

go into that level of thinking.

00:30:55 --> 00:30:55

Okay, that's level three.

00:30:56 --> 00:30:59

Level four, then, which is when you ask

00:30:59 --> 00:31:01

me, which class was I the most excited

00:31:01 --> 00:31:02

to teach?

00:31:02 --> 00:31:03

That's level four.

00:31:05 --> 00:31:09

That is, what does modern aqeedah look like?

00:31:10 --> 00:31:12

I don't care about the sifat.

00:31:12 --> 00:31:14

We all have teenage kids.

00:31:14 --> 00:31:16

None of them are debating about the sifat.

00:31:16 --> 00:31:17

I know somebody's going to take that little

00:31:17 --> 00:31:17

clip.

00:31:19 --> 00:31:20

Yeah, okay.

00:31:20 --> 00:31:22

I don't care about the sifat controversy.

00:31:22 --> 00:31:23

Yeah, exactly.

00:31:23 --> 00:31:24

Of course, the sifat of Allah.

00:31:24 --> 00:31:25

I'm looking out for your best interest.

00:31:25 --> 00:31:26

Thank you, yeah.

00:31:26 --> 00:31:27

It doesn't matter.

00:31:27 --> 00:31:29

If I say the sky is blue, they're

00:31:29 --> 00:31:30

going to come and say whatever it is.

00:31:35 --> 00:31:37

I'm a firm believer, as Allah says in

00:31:37 --> 00:31:40

the Quran, that that which is done for

00:31:40 --> 00:31:42

the sake of Allah will remain, and that

00:31:42 --> 00:31:43

which is done for others will be gone.

00:31:47 --> 00:31:49

So my goal is sincerity and ikhlas and

00:31:49 --> 00:31:53

hidayah, and jokes aside, all of the criticism

00:31:53 --> 00:31:55

will not even be in the footnotes of

00:31:55 --> 00:31:56

the books of history.

00:31:57 --> 00:31:58

If what we're doing is for the sake

00:31:58 --> 00:32:00

of Allah, it will remain as a legacy.

00:32:00 --> 00:32:02

Look at the critics of, I mentioned this,

00:32:02 --> 00:32:04

even Umar Mukhtar, Ibn Taymiyyah and whatnot.

00:32:04 --> 00:32:06

Look, where are they now?

00:32:06 --> 00:32:07

The only reason you know about them is

00:32:07 --> 00:32:08

because of those people.

00:32:08 --> 00:32:08

Exactly.

00:32:08 --> 00:32:11

So yes, it is painful now, and it

00:32:11 --> 00:32:13

is causing drama amongst the masses now, but

00:32:13 --> 00:32:16

it's not ilm, and it's not a benefit,

00:32:17 --> 00:32:19

and it's just passing.

00:32:19 --> 00:32:20

So the long term.

00:32:20 --> 00:32:23

So my point, therefore, is that what will

00:32:23 --> 00:32:24

modern Islamic theology look like?

00:32:25 --> 00:32:25

And you know what it's going to look

00:32:25 --> 00:32:25

like?

00:32:25 --> 00:32:29

We take our teenagers, and we just have

00:32:29 --> 00:32:30

them in a room while we're sitting there

00:32:30 --> 00:32:31

taking notes.

00:32:31 --> 00:32:31

Blank slate.

00:32:32 --> 00:32:35

And see exactly, what are the questions they're

00:32:35 --> 00:32:35

asking?

00:32:36 --> 00:32:38

What are the issues that are troubling them?

00:32:39 --> 00:32:42

And then we look at that and start

00:32:42 --> 00:32:44

formulating Islamic responses.

00:32:44 --> 00:32:46

This is what needs to be done.

00:32:46 --> 00:32:48

Hardly anybody, I would say nobody's done it

00:32:48 --> 00:32:49

the way I like it to be done.

00:32:49 --> 00:32:51

It is one of the projects, you asked

00:32:51 --> 00:32:52

me if I have any projects.

00:32:52 --> 00:32:53

This is one of the projects I have,

00:32:54 --> 00:32:54

inshallah.

00:32:54 --> 00:32:56

Time is an issue, but wallahi, one of

00:32:56 --> 00:32:58

my biggest passions right now, and I say

00:32:58 --> 00:32:59

this to my...

00:32:59 --> 00:33:01

Because I still have a massive soft spot

00:33:01 --> 00:33:02

for the Salafis, for Ibn Taymiyyah.

00:33:02 --> 00:33:04

Come on, Ibn Taymiyyah, you can't tell but

00:33:04 --> 00:33:05

admire him.

00:33:05 --> 00:33:06

One of the biggest things I admire about

00:33:06 --> 00:33:09

him is the courage, the fearlessness.

00:33:10 --> 00:33:13

He really did not care about popularity.

00:33:13 --> 00:33:15

His views were so eccentric.

00:33:15 --> 00:33:16

Salafis don't realize that.

00:33:16 --> 00:33:19

Salafis who love him don't realize he came

00:33:19 --> 00:33:20

with a whole bunch of shahad views.

00:33:21 --> 00:33:23

Fiqh-wise and aqidah-wise.

00:33:23 --> 00:33:25

But he didn't care because he felt it

00:33:25 --> 00:33:26

was the haqq.

00:33:26 --> 00:33:27

And guess what?

00:33:27 --> 00:33:30

Those shahad views became mainstream Salafism today, literally.

00:33:30 --> 00:33:32

I know it sounds blasphemous to the Salafis,

00:33:32 --> 00:33:33

but it's true.

00:33:34 --> 00:33:37

Modern Salafism has so many views that are

00:33:37 --> 00:33:39

absolutely unprecedented, pre-Ibn Taymiyyah.

00:33:40 --> 00:33:41

I don't want to get too quick because

00:33:41 --> 00:33:42

it's a whole different...

00:33:42 --> 00:33:46

I have an article that I'm writing about

00:33:46 --> 00:33:49

Ibn Taymiyyah's contributions to the Salafi da'wah.

00:33:49 --> 00:33:52

Meaning pre-Ibn Taymiyyah, Atheism was very different.

00:33:52 --> 00:33:55

The main was Ibn Taymiyyah introduced the categorization

00:33:55 --> 00:33:57

of Rububiyyah and Uluhiyyah into Salafism.

00:33:57 --> 00:34:00

Yes, one or two people referenced some concept,

00:34:00 --> 00:34:03

but nobody took it mainstream and nobody interpreted

00:34:03 --> 00:34:04

it the way Ibn Taymiyyah did.

00:34:04 --> 00:34:06

Nobody brought this notion of, okay, you can

00:34:06 --> 00:34:09

believe in God but worship other than God

00:34:09 --> 00:34:10

and not call him a god.

00:34:10 --> 00:34:12

That is uniquely Taymiyyah.

00:34:12 --> 00:34:15

To differentiate between Rububiyyah and Uluhiyyah as a

00:34:15 --> 00:34:18

practical mechanism to pronounce verdicts on actions.

00:34:18 --> 00:34:21

Yes, I know Ibn Manda and Fulan, two

00:34:21 --> 00:34:24

people had, you know, statements where you kind

00:34:24 --> 00:34:26

of sort of see a distinction, a categorization.

00:34:26 --> 00:34:27

They didn't do anything with that categorization.

00:34:28 --> 00:34:29

And that's why you're getting into a lot

00:34:29 --> 00:34:30

of Rububiyyah.

00:34:30 --> 00:34:31

Imam Ahmed would allow Tawassul.

00:34:31 --> 00:34:33

Imam Mahdi would allow Tabarruk.

00:34:33 --> 00:34:35

The Hanabilah were well known to be Mutasawwifah.

00:34:35 --> 00:34:36

They didn't have an issue with this regard.

00:34:37 --> 00:34:38

Look at Abdul Qadir al-Jilani and the

00:34:38 --> 00:34:39

stuff that he would do, right?

00:34:39 --> 00:34:42

Ibn Taymiyyah comes along, the first person in

00:34:42 --> 00:34:44

human history to say, you cannot travel to

00:34:44 --> 00:34:46

the Qabir of the Prophet ï·º with the

00:34:46 --> 00:34:47

intention of visiting...

00:34:47 --> 00:34:48

that becomes a bid'ah and a stepping

00:34:48 --> 00:34:49

stone to shirk.

00:34:49 --> 00:34:52

Again, I respect Ibn Taymiyyah immensely, but I

00:34:52 --> 00:34:54

challenge you to find me based upon his

00:34:54 --> 00:34:56

distinction of Ubudiyyah, Rububiyyah.

00:34:56 --> 00:34:59

There are some that had other reasons, but

00:34:59 --> 00:35:01

Ibn Taymiyyah is coming from a specific theological

00:35:01 --> 00:35:03

paradigm, okay?

00:35:03 --> 00:35:04

Anyway, you got me into a lot of

00:35:04 --> 00:35:04

trouble there.

00:35:04 --> 00:35:08

My point is that Ibn Taymiyyah redefined Salafism

00:35:08 --> 00:35:10

completely with shahad, unknown views.

00:35:10 --> 00:35:11

He brought them in.

00:35:11 --> 00:35:12

They're now mainstream.

00:35:12 --> 00:35:13

It is a fact.

00:35:13 --> 00:35:14

Take it or leave it.

00:35:15 --> 00:35:18

Qualitatively, they seem to be more about classification,

00:35:18 --> 00:35:21

more about the human elements of the science,

00:35:21 --> 00:35:21

no?

00:35:22 --> 00:35:25

But they're still reading in a theology that

00:35:25 --> 00:35:26

was not understood.

00:35:27 --> 00:35:28

I mean, why is it that the previous

00:35:28 --> 00:35:31

Hanabil, including Ibn Qudamah and others, are very

00:35:31 --> 00:35:32

open about going to the Qabir of the

00:35:32 --> 00:35:35

Prophet ï·º, speaking to him, asking him to

00:35:35 --> 00:35:36

ask Allah for forgiveness?

00:35:36 --> 00:35:37

This is Ibn Qudamah, right?

00:35:37 --> 00:35:39

It's not even occurring to him that there's

00:35:39 --> 00:35:40

a problem here in this regard.

00:35:40 --> 00:35:42

By the way, I have never done this

00:35:42 --> 00:35:42

in my life.

00:35:42 --> 00:35:44

Believe it or not, I'm still influenced.

00:35:44 --> 00:35:46

I have never once, and I've gone to

00:35:46 --> 00:35:47

the Qabir of the Prophet ï·º more times

00:35:47 --> 00:35:47

than I can count.

00:35:48 --> 00:35:50

And I go and I have utmost respect

00:35:50 --> 00:35:53

and there's awe and there's genuine awe in

00:35:53 --> 00:35:56

front of me is the most sacred body

00:35:56 --> 00:35:57

to ever have walked the face of this

00:35:57 --> 00:35:57

earth.

00:35:58 --> 00:35:59

And Allah knows that awe that I have.

00:36:00 --> 00:36:02

But to this day, I have never said,

00:36:03 --> 00:36:06

Ya Rasulullah, ask Allah for this and that.

00:36:06 --> 00:36:07

But I don't have a problem with the

00:36:07 --> 00:36:08

one who does.

00:36:08 --> 00:36:09

And I know that's going to get into

00:36:09 --> 00:36:10

a massive problem.

00:36:10 --> 00:36:10

I don't.

00:36:10 --> 00:36:13

How can you, Ibn Nawawi, Ibn Qudamah.

00:36:13 --> 00:36:16

I can give you 50 scholars who said

00:36:16 --> 00:36:16

that.

00:36:16 --> 00:36:17

Qurtubi, they all say this, right?

00:36:18 --> 00:36:21

Controversy comes when it's kind of applied beyond

00:36:21 --> 00:36:21

that, right?

00:36:22 --> 00:36:24

So we're opening up the door of what

00:36:24 --> 00:36:25

is istighat and what is tawassul.

00:36:25 --> 00:36:27

And you can go over my talk there.

00:36:27 --> 00:36:28

But yeah, the controversy comes everywhere.

00:36:28 --> 00:36:30

Even with this, I just said the controversy

00:36:30 --> 00:36:30

comes.

00:36:30 --> 00:36:34

So I am no longer emotionally invested in

00:36:34 --> 00:36:37

this because I recognize all of these people

00:36:37 --> 00:36:38

are coming from different paradigms.

00:36:39 --> 00:36:40

I have to choose one in my own

00:36:40 --> 00:36:41

personal life.

00:36:41 --> 00:36:43

And because I was born and raised, well,

00:36:43 --> 00:36:45

not born, but I was born in Jama

00:36:45 --> 00:36:45

'at Salmi background.

00:36:45 --> 00:36:46

My father was one of the founders of

00:36:46 --> 00:36:49

Jama'at in America, Maududi and Haraki.

00:36:49 --> 00:36:51

My critics say he's gone back to his

00:36:51 --> 00:36:53

roots because now he's a Haraki activist.

00:36:53 --> 00:36:53

You know what I'm saying?

00:36:53 --> 00:36:55

Okay, it is what it is.

00:36:55 --> 00:36:58

But my education was in a Salafi paradigm.

00:36:59 --> 00:37:01

And I don't have a problem saying, yes,

00:37:01 --> 00:37:03

Ibn Taymiyyah's impact on me will probably remain

00:37:03 --> 00:37:04

till the day I die.

00:37:04 --> 00:37:05

There's no problem with that.

00:37:05 --> 00:37:07

But my point is, I don't have a

00:37:07 --> 00:37:11

problem with all of these other mainstream normative

00:37:11 --> 00:37:14

interpretations that would do things that Ibn Taymiyyah

00:37:14 --> 00:37:16

and Ibn Abu Wahab would consider shirk and

00:37:16 --> 00:37:16

bid'ah.

00:37:17 --> 00:37:18

It's their interpretation.

00:37:18 --> 00:37:21

I see from this other group's paradigm, it

00:37:21 --> 00:37:24

goes back to your paradigm and your definitions.

00:37:25 --> 00:37:27

Ibn Taymiyyah's definition and then especially Ibn Abu

00:37:27 --> 00:37:30

Wahab's definition are radically different than the definitions

00:37:30 --> 00:37:31

of Ibn Hajar.

00:37:31 --> 00:37:33

They're radically different than the definitions of the

00:37:33 --> 00:37:34

other strands.

00:37:34 --> 00:37:36

Once you understand that this really goes back

00:37:36 --> 00:37:39

to not simplistic issues, rather deeper issues.

00:37:39 --> 00:37:41

Neither of them are committing shirk then, man.

00:37:41 --> 00:37:44

Just you choose and you preach what you

00:37:44 --> 00:37:46

want to in a positive manner and understand

00:37:46 --> 00:37:48

that the other group has its ta'weel.

00:37:48 --> 00:37:51

And even if they're wrong, Allah will look

00:37:51 --> 00:37:52

at their ta'weel.

00:37:52 --> 00:37:54

Allah will look at their good intentions in

00:37:54 --> 00:37:55

this regard.

00:37:55 --> 00:37:57

This is what I'm talking about having moved

00:37:57 --> 00:37:58

beyond these.

00:37:58 --> 00:38:01

I am not obsessed with bashing the other

00:38:01 --> 00:38:04

groups even as I myself have not yet

00:38:04 --> 00:38:05

celebrated the Mawlid, believe it or not, once.

00:38:05 --> 00:38:07

I know, it's crazy, isn't it?

00:38:09 --> 00:38:11

Tell me what your personal experience is, okay?

00:38:11 --> 00:38:14

I haven't once spoken to a dead person

00:38:14 --> 00:38:16

or wali or whatnot because I personally don't

00:38:16 --> 00:38:17

like that.

00:38:17 --> 00:38:18

I just don't feel the need to do

00:38:18 --> 00:38:18

that.

00:38:18 --> 00:38:20

But like I said, I'm not going to

00:38:20 --> 00:38:24

criminalize or demonize those strands that view these

00:38:24 --> 00:38:26

issues because I know they're coming from a

00:38:26 --> 00:38:26

legacy.

00:38:26 --> 00:38:29

They're coming from a trajectory of scholarship, right?

00:38:29 --> 00:38:33

So to resurrect those past issues and make

00:38:33 --> 00:38:36

them the defining factor goes back to another

00:38:36 --> 00:38:37

point that I haven't mentioned yet, but I've

00:38:37 --> 00:38:40

given talks about it, the narcissism of small

00:38:40 --> 00:38:40

differences.

00:38:41 --> 00:38:46

Once you understand this psychological concept that human

00:38:46 --> 00:38:51

beings are naturally inclined to problematize similarities with

00:38:51 --> 00:38:55

similar groups because they need to define themselves

00:38:55 --> 00:38:59

against their closest competitors, it makes a lot

00:38:59 --> 00:39:01

of sense, the animosity between asharis and atharis,

00:39:02 --> 00:39:05

the animosity between Sufis and Salafis, even though

00:39:05 --> 00:39:07

90% is exactly the same.

00:39:07 --> 00:39:10

Once you understand this psychological reality, you just

00:39:10 --> 00:39:13

cease to have, I don't want to have

00:39:13 --> 00:39:16

animosity in my heart against any believer who

00:39:16 --> 00:39:18

loves Allah and his messenger.

00:39:18 --> 00:39:19

Wallahi, I don't want that.

00:39:19 --> 00:39:20

I can disagree.

00:39:21 --> 00:39:22

I don't want to have hatred.

00:39:23 --> 00:39:24

So I've moved beyond these groups.

00:39:24 --> 00:39:26

I don't consider them to be the defining

00:39:26 --> 00:39:27

factor of who I am.

00:39:28 --> 00:39:30

And therefore, when you ask me, which group

00:39:30 --> 00:39:30

do you follow?

00:39:32 --> 00:39:33

All and none.

00:39:34 --> 00:39:35

Really, all and none.

00:39:35 --> 00:39:36

It doesn't matter to me.

00:39:37 --> 00:39:41

I'm much more concerned about defending Islam theologically,

00:39:41 --> 00:39:44

politically, socially in the world that we live

00:39:44 --> 00:39:44

in.

00:39:44 --> 00:39:46

And therefore, I have that blank slate.

00:39:47 --> 00:39:48

I don't care about the slates that have

00:39:48 --> 00:39:50

been inherited by my ajdad and forefathers.

00:39:51 --> 00:39:52

And I'm worried about what does it mean

00:39:52 --> 00:39:54

to be a Muslim in the modern world?

00:39:56 --> 00:39:57

Citizenship, liberalism, feminism.

00:39:58 --> 00:40:00

These are the issues, you know, balancing Islamic

00:40:00 --> 00:40:00

law.

00:40:00 --> 00:40:01

And as you know, these are the critics

00:40:01 --> 00:40:03

that come here because again, their paradigm is

00:40:03 --> 00:40:03

madhabism.

00:40:04 --> 00:40:07

You know, their paradigm is, okay, the law

00:40:07 --> 00:40:09

of Ibn Qudamah should never be changed.

00:40:09 --> 00:40:10

I don't want to say that, but that's

00:40:10 --> 00:40:11

effectively what they're doing.

00:40:12 --> 00:40:12

Okay.

00:40:12 --> 00:40:15

The slate that has been filled by the

00:40:15 --> 00:40:17

previous scholarship is the religion of Allah.

00:40:17 --> 00:40:19

So when I come along and say, well,

00:40:19 --> 00:40:20

no, actually that's not the religion of Allah.

00:40:21 --> 00:40:22

That's their extrapolation.

00:40:23 --> 00:40:27

Obviously, one dimensional minds, oh, he's reforming Islam,

00:40:28 --> 00:40:28

destroying Islam.

00:40:29 --> 00:40:30

No, bro, you don't know fiqh and usur

00:40:30 --> 00:40:30

of fiqh.

00:40:30 --> 00:40:34

The problem is, you know, your critics, some

00:40:34 --> 00:40:36

of them are just nuts, right?

00:40:36 --> 00:40:38

And they'll just do, take bits and pieces

00:40:38 --> 00:40:41

and just have motivated by hatred or whatever.

00:40:42 --> 00:40:44

But the problem is those drown out the

00:40:44 --> 00:40:47

legitimate and constructive criticism and critique that you

00:40:47 --> 00:40:47

might get.

00:40:47 --> 00:40:47

Excellent.

00:40:47 --> 00:40:48

Nobody is perfect.

00:40:48 --> 00:40:48

Yeah.

00:40:48 --> 00:40:50

And there's no doubt that some of what

00:40:50 --> 00:40:52

I'm saying and doing is worthy of legitimate

00:40:52 --> 00:40:52

criticism.

00:40:53 --> 00:40:54

Nobody is perfect.

00:40:54 --> 00:40:54

I mean, I found you too.

00:40:55 --> 00:40:58

People have genuine critique and they're open to

00:40:58 --> 00:40:59

email you.

00:40:59 --> 00:41:01

And I mean, I'm against this whole refutation

00:41:01 --> 00:41:06

culture I am somebody who loves positive criticism

00:41:06 --> 00:41:08

that comes from adab and sincerity.

00:41:08 --> 00:41:10

And anybody who has interacted with me, inshallah,

00:41:10 --> 00:41:12

can testify to this.

00:41:12 --> 00:41:14

I'm not perfect, nobody's perfect.

00:41:14 --> 00:41:16

And we will become stronger when we criticize

00:41:16 --> 00:41:19

for the sake of perfection, criticize for the

00:41:19 --> 00:41:20

sake of mutual enhancement.

00:41:20 --> 00:41:21

That's where we're going to come better.

00:41:21 --> 00:41:23

If we're going to criticize to take down,

00:41:23 --> 00:41:25

to put down, this is not the way

00:41:25 --> 00:41:25

forward.

00:41:25 --> 00:41:26

It's different, isn't it?

00:41:26 --> 00:41:27

And it always comes across.

00:41:27 --> 00:41:27

Yeah.

00:41:27 --> 00:41:31

But the thing is, you know, so some

00:41:31 --> 00:41:33

critics might listen to what you just said

00:41:33 --> 00:41:36

and say, look, he's belittling doheed and shirk

00:41:36 --> 00:41:37

and these types of things.

00:41:38 --> 00:41:39

Because, and I think that's their definition of

00:41:39 --> 00:41:40

doheed.

00:41:40 --> 00:41:43

But part of the thing that might be

00:41:43 --> 00:41:46

beneficial to, from your angle, the way you

00:41:46 --> 00:41:49

describe these things is because I think because

00:41:49 --> 00:41:52

of your expertise with background, maybe it goes

00:41:52 --> 00:41:54

above certain people's heads or you're talking about

00:41:54 --> 00:41:55

a very specific thing.

00:41:55 --> 00:41:57

They think you're talking about the general, you

00:41:57 --> 00:41:59

know, chapter or whatever is just to clarify

00:41:59 --> 00:42:04

your, I think part of the problem is

00:42:04 --> 00:42:05

we make it into an aqeedah issue.

00:42:05 --> 00:42:08

We make it into an issue of theology,

00:42:08 --> 00:42:10

of defining groups and sects and so forth.

00:42:11 --> 00:42:12

When I think if you look at it

00:42:12 --> 00:42:14

from the perspective of just draw a circle

00:42:14 --> 00:42:17

around everything, those things that the vast, vast,

00:42:18 --> 00:42:19

vast majority agree on.

00:42:19 --> 00:42:19

Yeah.

00:42:20 --> 00:42:22

You'll find people in that circle which happen

00:42:22 --> 00:42:26

to identify as different groups based on these

00:42:26 --> 00:42:28

man-made categories, Ash'arism, Ath'arism, Salafism,

00:42:28 --> 00:42:29

all that kind of stuff.

00:42:30 --> 00:42:33

But they would agree, for example, that, and

00:42:33 --> 00:42:35

this might be a better way of maybe

00:42:35 --> 00:42:37

phrasing it, that they all agree that, okay,

00:42:38 --> 00:42:39

istighat ibn al-Mu'ad, or, you know,

00:42:39 --> 00:42:42

asking a dead person for, you know, for,

00:42:42 --> 00:42:47

you know, cure or children or assistance or

00:42:47 --> 00:42:49

something like that, don't do it.

00:42:50 --> 00:42:51

They won't, now they'll differ.

00:42:51 --> 00:42:52

Is it shirk?

00:42:52 --> 00:42:52

Is it this?

00:42:52 --> 00:42:53

Is it that?

00:42:53 --> 00:42:55

But they, I pretty much, you know, everyone

00:42:55 --> 00:42:55

would agree.

00:42:55 --> 00:42:56

But that's what I say too.

00:42:56 --> 00:42:59

Yeah, but the way you kind of, the

00:42:59 --> 00:43:02

way you talk about it is very sometimes

00:43:02 --> 00:43:04

academic and you're talking about the shirk point.

00:43:04 --> 00:43:06

Someone might think, because he's saying it's not

00:43:06 --> 00:43:09

shirk, therefore they'll go to the opposite, they'll

00:43:09 --> 00:43:11

assume the opposite and, oh, everything's allowed, go

00:43:11 --> 00:43:13

and start, you know, go and asking someone

00:43:13 --> 00:43:13

in the grave.

00:43:13 --> 00:43:14

Just because it's not shirk.

00:43:14 --> 00:43:16

No, I have very publicly said, multiple times

00:43:16 --> 00:43:18

I've said it, it is haram, it is

00:43:18 --> 00:43:19

munkar, it is a stepping stone to shirk.

00:43:19 --> 00:43:20

Exactly.

00:43:20 --> 00:43:22

But it is not inherently shirk.

00:43:22 --> 00:43:24

But if you describe it as, as this

00:43:24 --> 00:43:26

is, al-akhbi aqal maqeel, for example, you

00:43:26 --> 00:43:28

know, this is like the common denominator of

00:43:28 --> 00:43:29

the vast majority.

00:43:29 --> 00:43:30

So, Jayyid, I get this point.

00:43:30 --> 00:43:33

Because sometimes I feel that we have a

00:43:33 --> 00:43:35

hang up with trying to prove whether or

00:43:35 --> 00:43:37

not it's shirk, or talking about whether or

00:43:37 --> 00:43:40

not it's shirk, rather than what's actually important

00:43:40 --> 00:43:43

for a Muslim's life, which is, you know,

00:43:44 --> 00:43:45

should I be doing something like this or

00:43:45 --> 00:43:45

not?

00:43:45 --> 00:43:46

Okay.

00:43:46 --> 00:43:48

I feel it's, sometimes I feel that we

00:43:48 --> 00:43:50

want to kind of win the argument.

00:43:50 --> 00:43:50

Yeah.

00:43:50 --> 00:43:52

Not yourself, but people who argue about this,

00:43:52 --> 00:43:54

they would rather win the argument of is

00:43:54 --> 00:43:56

it shirk, or is it not shirk, than

00:43:56 --> 00:43:58

stop people doing it.

00:43:59 --> 00:44:00

I would personally, I don't know how you

00:44:00 --> 00:44:02

feel about this, but I would much rather

00:44:02 --> 00:44:04

someone doesn't believe it's shirk, and never does

00:44:04 --> 00:44:04

it in their life.

00:44:05 --> 00:44:06

I actually said this explicitly.

00:44:06 --> 00:44:06

Yeah?

00:44:06 --> 00:44:07

Yeah.

00:44:07 --> 00:44:08

But, okay, Dr. Salman.

00:44:08 --> 00:44:09

What's up?

00:44:09 --> 00:44:10

Dr. Salman Sahar.

00:44:14 --> 00:44:19

Because I genuinely wish to raise the bar

00:44:19 --> 00:44:25

of academic acumen and thaqafah and intelligence of

00:44:25 --> 00:44:27

the masses that are listening, and I'm not

00:44:27 --> 00:44:30

interested in winning points or just smoothing things

00:44:30 --> 00:44:30

over.

00:44:30 --> 00:44:32

I will push back at you, even though

00:44:32 --> 00:44:34

it's going to open up a whole can

00:44:34 --> 00:44:34

of worms.

00:44:35 --> 00:44:37

I personally believe it is haram.

00:44:37 --> 00:44:38

It is bid'ah.

00:44:38 --> 00:44:39

It is munkar.

00:44:39 --> 00:44:40

It is stepping stone to shirk.

00:44:40 --> 00:44:42

And it's only going to be shirk with

00:44:42 --> 00:44:42

certain aqid.

00:44:42 --> 00:44:44

It could be shirk, but it is not

00:44:44 --> 00:44:44

in and of itself shirk.

00:44:45 --> 00:44:48

That having been said, with that big caveat

00:44:48 --> 00:44:52

and disclaimer, the awkward reality is that there

00:44:52 --> 00:44:58

are many, many famous, reputable, mainstream Sunni preachers

00:44:58 --> 00:45:00

who say that it is mustahab.

00:45:02 --> 00:45:04

Or at the very least, jais.

00:45:05 --> 00:45:07

And for any random person, they're talking about

00:45:07 --> 00:45:08

the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, right?

00:45:08 --> 00:45:09

The Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

00:45:09 --> 00:45:11

So, I mean, we can make that exception.

00:45:12 --> 00:45:14

By the way, theologically, you cannot make that

00:45:14 --> 00:45:14

exception.

00:45:15 --> 00:45:16

Theologically, you cannot.

00:45:16 --> 00:45:18

Just from the, I'm saying, from the perspective

00:45:18 --> 00:45:20

of starting off with the biggest...

00:45:20 --> 00:45:20

No, let me finish what I'm saying.

00:45:21 --> 00:45:22

Let me finish this point here.

00:45:23 --> 00:45:28

So, this nice, beautiful save that you want

00:45:28 --> 00:45:30

to do, it works in our safe space.

00:45:31 --> 00:45:33

And for the viewers who were jumping to

00:45:33 --> 00:45:35

critique me, say, okay, khalas, he said that.

00:45:35 --> 00:45:37

I'm going to give them ammunition now because

00:45:37 --> 00:45:38

my goal is not them.

00:45:38 --> 00:45:41

My goal is the people who are genuinely

00:45:41 --> 00:45:43

trying to understand and make sense.

00:45:44 --> 00:45:47

I don't want to mention names, but pretty

00:45:47 --> 00:45:54

much every single, reputable, mainstream Western cleric outside

00:45:54 --> 00:45:57

of the Salafi paradigm believes it is jaiz

00:45:57 --> 00:45:57

or mustahab.

00:45:58 --> 00:46:00

That's just a fact.

00:46:00 --> 00:46:01

I've spoken to them.

00:46:02 --> 00:46:03

I accused one of them one of my

00:46:03 --> 00:46:06

heyday Salafi days of literally saying, you are

00:46:06 --> 00:46:08

preaching shirk, but Allah will forgive you because

00:46:08 --> 00:46:08

you don't know any better.

00:46:08 --> 00:46:11

That's my ignorant 25-year-old idiot self.

00:46:11 --> 00:46:12

Literally, you're a kid.

00:46:13 --> 00:46:14

Your teachers tell you this, you go regurgitated,

00:46:15 --> 00:46:15

right?

00:46:15 --> 00:46:17

I literally said to somebody 20 years older

00:46:17 --> 00:46:19

than I am, the senior most cleric, and

00:46:19 --> 00:46:22

you get who I am, literally said to

00:46:22 --> 00:46:24

him, and I feel so stupid now, but

00:46:24 --> 00:46:25

it was what I felt, this is the

00:46:25 --> 00:46:26

haqq, I need to make ghamid al-ujja.

00:46:27 --> 00:46:28

You know, I say, look, I need to

00:46:28 --> 00:46:29

tell you that you're going to hear this

00:46:29 --> 00:46:31

from other people, but I am preaching that

00:46:31 --> 00:46:32

you are preaching shirk.

00:46:33 --> 00:46:34

And I will say this to your face.

00:46:34 --> 00:46:36

I felt, mashallah, validated, okay?

00:46:36 --> 00:46:37

And what do you expect him to do?

00:46:38 --> 00:46:41

So to be pedantic, accurate here, this nice

00:46:41 --> 00:46:44

simplistic back and forth we had is disconnected

00:46:44 --> 00:46:45

from reality.

00:46:46 --> 00:46:48

Those guys don't say it's haram.

00:46:50 --> 00:46:52

Who cares if it's only for the...

00:46:52 --> 00:46:53

You can't just do shirk with one person,

00:46:53 --> 00:46:54

not with the other.

00:46:54 --> 00:46:56

But that's the thing, the reason why they

00:46:56 --> 00:46:58

make an exception about the Prophet ï·º, you

00:46:58 --> 00:46:59

can see the...

00:46:59 --> 00:47:01

So I know for a fact, I cannot

00:47:01 --> 00:47:03

mention names here, because I mean, he has

00:47:03 --> 00:47:04

public articles.

00:47:04 --> 00:47:06

I know for a fact, one of the

00:47:06 --> 00:47:09

icons of that strand literally has an entire

00:47:09 --> 00:47:14

paper justifying it for anbiya and awliya, in

00:47:14 --> 00:47:17

English, anbiya and awliya.

00:47:19 --> 00:47:23

So your theory here and your attempt is

00:47:23 --> 00:47:27

nice, but my interest really is the long

00:47:27 --> 00:47:27

term.

00:47:28 --> 00:47:29

Let the cancellations occur.

00:47:29 --> 00:47:31

I hope, inshallah, when people listen to this,

00:47:31 --> 00:47:32

do your own research.

00:47:32 --> 00:47:35

What do you do when the bulk of

00:47:35 --> 00:47:37

the ummah is not agreeing with you in

00:47:37 --> 00:47:37

this regard?

00:47:38 --> 00:47:40

This is the dilemma I faced 15 years

00:47:40 --> 00:47:40

ago.

00:47:41 --> 00:47:43

When you come to the realization, you're the

00:47:43 --> 00:47:44

minority when you say that.

00:47:44 --> 00:47:47

And you are when you don't understand the

00:47:47 --> 00:47:49

default of the Shafi'is of Egypt, of

00:47:49 --> 00:47:52

the Syrian scholars, of the Yemenis, of the

00:47:52 --> 00:47:52

Moroccans.

00:47:52 --> 00:47:55

The default is that it is jahiz.

00:47:56 --> 00:47:58

That's why you have to go deeper and

00:47:58 --> 00:48:00

understand where they're coming from and understand their

00:48:00 --> 00:48:03

definitions of shirk and tawheed is radically different

00:48:03 --> 00:48:04

than ours.

00:48:04 --> 00:48:05

And then you need to understand where they're

00:48:05 --> 00:48:06

coming.

00:48:06 --> 00:48:08

You go deeper and deeper and the least

00:48:08 --> 00:48:10

that you will come to is, okay, they

00:48:10 --> 00:48:11

have a paradigm.

00:48:11 --> 00:48:12

May Allah forgive them for it.

00:48:13 --> 00:48:14

That's what I'm upon.

00:48:14 --> 00:48:15

I'm not saying they're right.

00:48:16 --> 00:48:18

I'm not saying they're right.

00:48:18 --> 00:48:20

I'm saying I see where they're coming from

00:48:20 --> 00:48:24

and in their worldview, in their worldview, it

00:48:24 --> 00:48:25

is not shirk.

00:48:26 --> 00:48:27

That's what I come to.

00:48:27 --> 00:48:28

You understand what I'm saying?

00:48:28 --> 00:48:30

So this is why we have to move

00:48:30 --> 00:48:33

beyond the platitudes and the slogans and get

00:48:33 --> 00:48:34

to the real nitty gritty.

00:48:35 --> 00:48:37

How can you achieve unity with groups that

00:48:37 --> 00:48:39

you think are worshipping other than Allah?

00:48:39 --> 00:48:41

Even if you say, okay, Allah will excuse

00:48:41 --> 00:48:43

them for their ignorance because you're still saying

00:48:43 --> 00:48:45

that they're worshipping other than Allah.

00:48:45 --> 00:48:48

And by the way, the haram doesn't save

00:48:48 --> 00:48:48

you.

00:48:49 --> 00:48:49

Why?

00:48:49 --> 00:48:52

Because Ibn Abu Wahhab clearly, like literally says,

00:48:53 --> 00:48:55

even if you say it's haram, but you

00:48:55 --> 00:48:57

don't think it's shirk, you are a mushrik.

00:48:58 --> 00:49:00

That's his view, literally.

00:49:00 --> 00:49:01

That's his literal view.

00:49:01 --> 00:49:04

So I see that as kind of on

00:49:04 --> 00:49:07

the fringes, but there is...

00:49:07 --> 00:49:08

As is the person himself.

00:49:08 --> 00:49:09

Yeah, like the...

00:49:11 --> 00:49:13

I think even those who would say, for

00:49:13 --> 00:49:16

example, okay, it's Jaiz, it's Mustahab.

00:49:17 --> 00:49:21

They, in their practice, and apart from the

00:49:21 --> 00:49:24

more extreme ones, even that intuitively, the average

00:49:24 --> 00:49:26

Muslim kind of looks upon and says, whoa,

00:49:26 --> 00:49:27

this is a bit...

00:49:27 --> 00:49:27

I agree.

00:49:27 --> 00:49:28

The fitrah finds this...

00:49:28 --> 00:49:29

The fitrah would...

00:49:29 --> 00:49:30

I 100% agree.

00:49:30 --> 00:49:33

...keep kind of like a magnet, draw them

00:49:33 --> 00:49:34

to not going there.

00:49:34 --> 00:49:37

And I think it might be kind of...

00:49:37 --> 00:49:40

Sometimes I think almost talking about it and

00:49:40 --> 00:49:42

think of it as a big thing, because

00:49:42 --> 00:49:45

even if you're speaking against that, that mentality,

00:49:45 --> 00:49:48

it's kind of accidentally reviving and keeping that

00:49:48 --> 00:49:49

thing alive.

00:49:49 --> 00:49:49

Okay.

00:49:49 --> 00:49:51

Whereas maybe reducing...

00:49:51 --> 00:49:56

I would feel reducing the commitment to convincing

00:49:56 --> 00:49:58

people about that issue.

00:49:58 --> 00:49:59

So...

00:49:59 --> 00:50:00

I was thinking maybe ibadah, maybe we've got

00:50:00 --> 00:50:03

the notion of ibadah as some kind of

00:50:03 --> 00:50:04

simply definable thing wrong.

00:50:04 --> 00:50:06

So I would, if I were to meet

00:50:06 --> 00:50:09

one of these shuyukh, I would say to

00:50:09 --> 00:50:11

them, my dear brothers in Islam, you know

00:50:11 --> 00:50:13

this is a controversial issue.

00:50:13 --> 00:50:15

And none of you say it's wajib.

00:50:15 --> 00:50:16

None of you say it's wajib.

00:50:17 --> 00:50:18

Why don't you just let it be?

00:50:18 --> 00:50:21

I would literally advise them, just get out

00:50:21 --> 00:50:23

of this controversy, because you provoke the other

00:50:23 --> 00:50:23

side.

00:50:23 --> 00:50:25

I know the other side's acting rash and

00:50:25 --> 00:50:27

foolish as well, but by you constantly doing

00:50:27 --> 00:50:28

this, you're going to provoke the other side.

00:50:28 --> 00:50:30

And they polarize.

00:50:30 --> 00:50:30

Yeah, they polarize.

00:50:30 --> 00:50:32

So I would definitely advise them this as

00:50:32 --> 00:50:32

well.

00:50:32 --> 00:50:34

Don't get involved in controversial stuff.

00:50:34 --> 00:50:39

But when all is said and done, I

00:50:39 --> 00:50:43

am not interested in categorizing these other Muslims

00:50:43 --> 00:50:45

as being the worst of mankind.

00:50:45 --> 00:50:46

Of course.

00:50:46 --> 00:50:48

I can cooperate with them for other needs

00:50:48 --> 00:50:49

and goods.

00:50:49 --> 00:50:52

Not just that, but you can feel that

00:50:52 --> 00:50:52

they are brothers.

00:50:52 --> 00:50:53

They are.

00:50:53 --> 00:50:55

Not just feel, they are our brothers.

00:50:55 --> 00:50:56

Not just like cooperation, so to say.

00:50:56 --> 00:50:58

That cannot happen if I have this cognitive

00:50:58 --> 00:50:59

dissonance.

00:50:59 --> 00:51:01

And it didn't happen, because I know myself.

00:51:01 --> 00:51:02

When I was on the old school paradigm,

00:51:03 --> 00:51:05

you're smiling at them, but in your heart,

00:51:05 --> 00:51:06

there's this ache.

00:51:08 --> 00:51:10

You're sitting and eating with them, but they're

00:51:10 --> 00:51:12

not really my full brethren.

00:51:12 --> 00:51:14

You can't help it, because that's the way

00:51:14 --> 00:51:14

you feel.

00:51:15 --> 00:51:17

And now that's not the case, because I

00:51:17 --> 00:51:19

genuinely view all of these strands.

00:51:19 --> 00:51:20

Yes, Salafis included.

00:51:20 --> 00:51:21

They're still my brethren.

00:51:21 --> 00:51:22

Alhamdulillah, I'm not anti-Salafi.

00:51:22 --> 00:51:23

I just moved on.

00:51:25 --> 00:51:29

That doesn't mean all Muslims are exactly the

00:51:29 --> 00:51:29

same.

00:51:29 --> 00:51:30

I've said this as well.

00:51:30 --> 00:51:32

There are red lines to believe in a

00:51:32 --> 00:51:33

prophet out of the process.

00:51:33 --> 00:51:34

And it's clearly a red line to believe

00:51:34 --> 00:51:35

in a God other than Allah, which no

00:51:35 --> 00:51:36

Muslim actually does.

00:51:36 --> 00:51:39

It's clearly a red line to abandon worship

00:51:39 --> 00:51:41

of Allah, which one or two of the

00:51:41 --> 00:51:42

extreme Ismaili groups have done.

00:51:42 --> 00:51:43

There is no ta'abud, there is no

00:51:43 --> 00:51:44

salah, there is no zakah.

00:51:45 --> 00:51:45

There is no...

00:51:45 --> 00:51:48

When you're not even worshiping, there is no

00:51:48 --> 00:51:49

la ilaha illallah, there is no worship.

00:51:50 --> 00:51:51

That means you've crossed the red line over

00:51:51 --> 00:51:52

there, right?

00:51:52 --> 00:51:53

So there are red lines.

00:51:54 --> 00:51:56

But within these red lines, all of these

00:51:56 --> 00:51:58

movements are Muslim.

00:51:58 --> 00:52:00

Now, some are better and closer.

00:52:00 --> 00:52:04

And without a doubt, Sunnism, alhamdulillah, respects the

00:52:04 --> 00:52:04

sahaba.

00:52:04 --> 00:52:06

That is definitely a positive thing to do.

00:52:06 --> 00:52:07

I don't agree with the other school that

00:52:07 --> 00:52:09

disrespects, but they're not kafirs for it.

00:52:09 --> 00:52:13

Without a doubt, I still say this for

00:52:13 --> 00:52:16

the record, the Atharic creed, overall, overall, this

00:52:16 --> 00:52:18

is the more sensible one because it's not

00:52:18 --> 00:52:21

going from John of Damascus's division of the

00:52:21 --> 00:52:21

attributes.

00:52:21 --> 00:52:23

But still, it's a trivial difference.

00:52:23 --> 00:52:27

So my point, though, is these differences should

00:52:27 --> 00:52:29

not be to the point of dividing us

00:52:29 --> 00:52:31

such that we cannot come together for the

00:52:31 --> 00:52:32

greater good.

00:52:32 --> 00:52:33

This is the key point.

00:52:34 --> 00:52:35

And for the record, before we finish off

00:52:35 --> 00:52:38

as well, we didn't talk about the details

00:52:38 --> 00:52:40

of why I say it's not shirk and

00:52:40 --> 00:52:41

it's only haram and whatnot.

00:52:41 --> 00:52:43

For that, you can listen to my three

00:52:43 --> 00:52:45

-hour lecture on the Najdi da'wah where

00:52:45 --> 00:52:46

I go into a lot of detail.

00:52:46 --> 00:52:47

Please listen to it.

00:52:47 --> 00:52:49

Take notes if you need to, but I

00:52:49 --> 00:52:51

go into it and I explain why I

00:52:51 --> 00:52:51

hold these views.

00:52:51 --> 00:52:53

So that's explaining that, inshallah.

00:52:53 --> 00:52:54

Inshallah.

00:52:54 --> 00:52:55

Zakir Naqshband, did you have something on that?

00:52:56 --> 00:52:56

I've got another.

00:52:57 --> 00:52:58

Yeah, I was actually going to ask, Sheikh,

00:52:58 --> 00:52:59

you know, it's dissonance.

00:53:00 --> 00:53:02

And there's one thing within the Muslims, but

00:53:02 --> 00:53:04

actually I think for a lot of Muslims,

00:53:04 --> 00:53:06

especially for us growing up, kind of those

00:53:06 --> 00:53:10

mid-40s, right, is with the kuffar as

00:53:10 --> 00:53:10

well.

00:53:10 --> 00:53:12

Even with the non-Muslims.

00:53:12 --> 00:53:13

Yes, another issue.

00:53:13 --> 00:53:15

The wala and bara versions we were taught.

00:53:16 --> 00:53:17

This was one of the first things.

00:53:17 --> 00:53:18

How many fights do you want to pick

00:53:18 --> 00:53:18

today?

00:53:18 --> 00:53:18

No, no, no.

00:53:19 --> 00:53:20

But this is like, it's a natural consequence.

00:53:20 --> 00:53:22

If you're talking about dissonance, a lot of

00:53:22 --> 00:53:24

people, they've kind of reconciled with other Muslims,

00:53:25 --> 00:53:28

but with non-Muslims, there's still that thing.

00:53:28 --> 00:53:30

This is a topic I need to talk

00:53:30 --> 00:53:31

about in more academic detail.

00:53:32 --> 00:53:33

I was planning to give a library chat

00:53:33 --> 00:53:35

about this because this is another massive problem

00:53:35 --> 00:53:36

the average Muslim has.

00:53:37 --> 00:53:39

The misunderstanding of wala and bara.

00:53:39 --> 00:53:42

Again, to be academic, may Allah protect me,

00:53:42 --> 00:53:42

but this is the truth.

00:53:43 --> 00:53:43

It is the academic truth.

00:53:44 --> 00:53:46

The understanding of wala and bara that was

00:53:46 --> 00:53:50

taught by Ibn Abdul Wahab was unprecedented to

00:53:50 --> 00:53:51

Islamic history.

00:53:52 --> 00:53:53

Ibn Taymiyyah didn't teach it.

00:53:54 --> 00:53:55

Ghazali didn't teach it.

00:53:56 --> 00:53:59

Tahawi doesn't have that type of understanding.

00:54:00 --> 00:54:02

The Ibn Abdul Wahab understanding wala and bara

00:54:02 --> 00:54:04

became a politicized takfir.

00:54:05 --> 00:54:08

If you don't agree with me and you

00:54:08 --> 00:54:11

side with my political enemy, you are a

00:54:11 --> 00:54:12

kafir in the eyes of Allah.

00:54:13 --> 00:54:14

That's what he taught and that's what he

00:54:14 --> 00:54:14

did.

00:54:15 --> 00:54:17

And he fought and he killed based upon

00:54:17 --> 00:54:17

that.

00:54:17 --> 00:54:18

Again, well known.

00:54:18 --> 00:54:18

Read the books.

00:54:19 --> 00:54:22

That understanding of wala and bara, wala and

00:54:22 --> 00:54:24

bara before Ibn Abdul Wahab is more of

00:54:24 --> 00:54:26

an adab than fiqh and akhidah.

00:54:27 --> 00:54:28

I.e., what do I mean by this?

00:54:29 --> 00:54:30

You should have a generic love for the

00:54:30 --> 00:54:31

Muslims.

00:54:32 --> 00:54:35

And anybody who wants to harm Islam, you

00:54:35 --> 00:54:35

can't like that person.

00:54:36 --> 00:54:38

This is more of an adab.

00:54:38 --> 00:54:42

You don't politicize it because politicizing it means

00:54:42 --> 00:54:45

you are going to define who is a

00:54:45 --> 00:54:47

good and a bad Muslim and who is

00:54:47 --> 00:54:48

on the side of this and the side

00:54:48 --> 00:54:48

of that.

00:54:49 --> 00:54:51

That only occurs in the Battle of Badr.

00:54:52 --> 00:54:53

There are rules though, Sheikh, isn't it?

00:54:53 --> 00:54:55

Like Jizya, for example.

00:54:55 --> 00:54:58

So there is some politicization if Islam is

00:54:58 --> 00:54:58

- That's not wala and bara.

00:54:59 --> 00:55:00

No, no, okay.

00:55:00 --> 00:55:01

That's not wala and bara.

00:55:01 --> 00:55:02

Not pure wala and bara.

00:55:02 --> 00:55:04

Wala and bara comes into the reality of

00:55:04 --> 00:55:07

the last 20 years of all that's taking

00:55:07 --> 00:55:09

place in our nation states.

00:55:10 --> 00:55:12

Taking sides means you're a kafir?

00:55:13 --> 00:55:15

Well, but that's exactly what wala and bara

00:55:15 --> 00:55:16

would entail.

00:55:17 --> 00:55:19

Taking sides means you're- So this is

00:55:19 --> 00:55:19

the whole issue here, right?

00:55:20 --> 00:55:24

So this understanding needs to be deconstructed academically.

00:55:24 --> 00:55:25

I haven't done it yet.

00:55:25 --> 00:55:26

Others have done it.

00:55:26 --> 00:55:26

I need to explain.

00:55:27 --> 00:55:29

I have a big library chat about the

00:55:29 --> 00:55:30

reality of wala and bara.

00:55:30 --> 00:55:33

The misunderstanding that has come from Ibn Adwaha's

00:55:33 --> 00:55:35

movement and then after that from the modern

00:55:35 --> 00:55:38

manifestations, you know, al-Makdisi and others, how

00:55:38 --> 00:55:40

they have resurrected that misunderstanding.

00:55:41 --> 00:55:43

Ironically, I find this interesting for the academically

00:55:43 --> 00:55:44

inclined.

00:55:44 --> 00:55:46

SubhanAllah, so interesting, right?

00:55:46 --> 00:55:48

This notion is purely coming from one strand

00:55:48 --> 00:55:49

of Islam.

00:55:49 --> 00:55:53

But because of interaction, it has trickled over

00:55:53 --> 00:55:55

into other understandings.

00:55:55 --> 00:55:57

You hear dear bandi ulama talking about wala

00:55:57 --> 00:55:57

and bara.

00:55:58 --> 00:55:59

It's not a part of the Deoband tradition

00:55:59 --> 00:55:59

at all.

00:56:00 --> 00:56:02

It's like interesting how they've taken these types

00:56:02 --> 00:56:02

of things.

00:56:03 --> 00:56:06

And, you know, when your queen died, right?

00:56:06 --> 00:56:07

And something happened.

00:56:07 --> 00:56:10

I forgot what, like, some child's in the

00:56:10 --> 00:56:11

masjid.

00:56:11 --> 00:56:12

The one saying, God save the king.

00:56:12 --> 00:56:12

Oh, yeah.

00:56:13 --> 00:56:14

Yeah, central masjid.

00:56:14 --> 00:56:17

Listen, I'm not taking sides here, but nobody

00:56:17 --> 00:56:17

became a kafir.

00:56:17 --> 00:56:18

Let me just put it that way, okay?

00:56:19 --> 00:56:21

I mean, the whole brouhaha and controversy.

00:56:21 --> 00:56:22

I forgot the details.

00:56:22 --> 00:56:23

I should be careful here.

00:56:23 --> 00:56:26

But I was just laughing, like, seriously, guys?

00:56:26 --> 00:56:28

I mean, you can say it's not appropriate.

00:56:28 --> 00:56:30

You can say kadha wa kadha, but accusations

00:56:30 --> 00:56:31

of kufr.

00:56:33 --> 00:56:34

Accusations of rida.

00:56:34 --> 00:56:35

Bro, I mean, rida.

00:56:35 --> 00:56:36

I mean, audhubillah.

00:56:37 --> 00:56:39

Yeah, I don't think anyone was serious.

00:56:39 --> 00:56:42

Anyone was taken seriously who was online.

00:56:42 --> 00:56:43

They were there like those.

00:56:43 --> 00:56:45

I mean, you're going to get that kind

00:56:45 --> 00:56:45

of mentality.

00:56:46 --> 00:56:48

It's like this extremism that has happened that

00:56:48 --> 00:56:51

if you merely show any type of, you

00:56:51 --> 00:56:53

know, you can say acting foolish in this

00:56:53 --> 00:56:53

regard.

00:56:53 --> 00:56:54

I get it.

00:56:54 --> 00:56:55

Totally get it.

00:56:55 --> 00:56:57

But there is no theology here in this

00:56:57 --> 00:56:58

regard, you know?

00:56:58 --> 00:56:59

And Allah knows that.

00:56:59 --> 00:57:00

It is what it is, man.

00:57:00 --> 00:57:04

So your expertise, your background is the evolution,

00:57:04 --> 00:57:06

the history of ideas and sects and so

00:57:06 --> 00:57:06

forth.

00:57:07 --> 00:57:08

What would you...

00:57:08 --> 00:57:08

Sects, S-E.

00:57:09 --> 00:57:09

Sects.

00:57:09 --> 00:57:10

Careful how you pronounce my English.

00:57:11 --> 00:57:12

I had an expert on the other one.

00:57:12 --> 00:57:13

MashaAllah.

00:57:17 --> 00:57:21

My question is, what do you think historians

00:57:21 --> 00:57:23

later on would say about today?

00:57:24 --> 00:57:26

And how are they described?

00:57:26 --> 00:57:30

Describe Muslim sects and groups and so forth

00:57:30 --> 00:57:31

today and going forward?

00:57:31 --> 00:57:35

So I think we are seeing a new

00:57:35 --> 00:57:41

phase of interest and a new revival of

00:57:41 --> 00:57:46

questions and epistemologies because of the circumstances we

00:57:46 --> 00:57:47

find ourselves in.

00:57:48 --> 00:57:49

And later historians, without a doubt, will have

00:57:49 --> 00:57:51

a lot to say about our times.

00:57:52 --> 00:57:54

We are one of the first generations, especially

00:57:54 --> 00:57:57

in the West, that has to tackle sectarianism

00:57:57 --> 00:57:59

in a very academic way.

00:57:59 --> 00:58:01

You don't find ulema in Pakistan or in

00:58:01 --> 00:58:05

Timbuktu or in Egypt tackling sectarianism head on.

00:58:06 --> 00:58:07

Because there's no need to.

00:58:08 --> 00:58:11

It's the Muslims of England and America that

00:58:11 --> 00:58:14

are actually talking and producing academic papers.

00:58:14 --> 00:58:15

Sheikh Haytham has produced something.

00:58:15 --> 00:58:18

I have multiple talks about sectarianism, right, how

00:58:18 --> 00:58:19

we deal with this difference of opinion.

00:58:20 --> 00:58:23

Believe it or not, we're actually producing a

00:58:23 --> 00:58:25

thought that is effective for the rest of

00:58:25 --> 00:58:25

the world.

00:58:25 --> 00:58:26

We're producing in the Western world.

00:58:26 --> 00:58:27

Why?

00:58:27 --> 00:58:30

Because we have been forced by circumstance to

00:58:30 --> 00:58:32

think and to act in ways people outside

00:58:32 --> 00:58:34

of us don't have to do.

00:58:34 --> 00:58:36

The same applies for what I'm doing.

00:58:36 --> 00:58:38

If I hadn't been forced to think along

00:58:38 --> 00:58:39

the lines I'm being, I wouldn't have been

00:58:39 --> 00:58:40

thinking along these lines.

00:58:40 --> 00:58:42

I'd just be a card-carrying, you know,

00:58:42 --> 00:58:43

Taimian all the way through.

00:58:44 --> 00:58:47

But life and circumstances teach you what books

00:58:47 --> 00:58:48

do not teach you.

00:58:49 --> 00:58:51

And to see with your own eyes this

00:58:51 --> 00:58:53

reality of, OK, this isn't the religion of

00:58:53 --> 00:58:55

Allah to tell people the sifat are like

00:58:55 --> 00:58:57

this and tawhid is like this and whatnot.

00:58:57 --> 00:58:58

They're all tawhid.

00:58:58 --> 00:58:59

They're all people of tawhid.

00:58:59 --> 00:59:01

My version of tawhid is but one version.

00:59:01 --> 00:59:03

All of these people are loving Allah and

00:59:03 --> 00:59:03

his messenger.

00:59:03 --> 00:59:05

None of them in their mind, I have

00:59:05 --> 00:59:06

to go back to it, none of them

00:59:06 --> 00:59:08

is equating the process with Allah.

00:59:08 --> 00:59:10

That's the best definition of tawhid.

00:59:10 --> 00:59:13

Knowing what you know now about what happened

00:59:13 --> 00:59:15

in the 2nd century, 3rd century, and how

00:59:15 --> 00:59:17

later it was, it took on a kind

00:59:17 --> 00:59:18

of life of its own.

00:59:18 --> 00:59:19

These groups, these...

00:59:19 --> 00:59:22

That's not going to happen because the chart

00:59:22 --> 00:59:22

has already been filled.

00:59:22 --> 00:59:23

But do you think...

00:59:23 --> 00:59:24

That's not going to happen.

00:59:24 --> 00:59:26

Do you think there will be different sects

00:59:26 --> 00:59:27

from different angles?

00:59:27 --> 00:59:28

No, I don't think so.

00:59:29 --> 00:59:29

Not really.

00:59:30 --> 00:59:33

There will be fringe movements, but you cannot

00:59:33 --> 00:59:36

reinvent that wheel because those are the original

00:59:36 --> 00:59:36

dominoes.

00:59:37 --> 00:59:43

Those, they have a certain privilege, a historical

00:59:43 --> 00:59:44

privilege, not a theological privilege.

00:59:45 --> 00:59:47

Theological, that might be because of the subject

00:59:47 --> 00:59:47

they're talking about.

00:59:47 --> 00:59:49

What about, for example, along the lines of

00:59:49 --> 00:59:51

secularism or liberalism?

00:59:51 --> 00:59:52

Well, we're already having these discussions.

00:59:52 --> 00:59:54

We don't call them sects.

00:59:54 --> 00:59:55

We don't call them schisms.

00:59:55 --> 00:59:58

Or groups or parties, identities.

00:59:58 --> 01:00:00

You really want to get controversial, let's go

01:00:00 --> 01:00:00

for it.

01:00:01 --> 01:00:02

You interviewed Dr. Haytham Al-Haddad two weeks

01:00:02 --> 01:00:05

ago about secular mind, right?

01:00:05 --> 01:00:06

I heard that interview.

01:00:06 --> 01:00:08

Actually, it was done ages ago, but it

01:00:08 --> 01:00:09

was just published.

01:00:09 --> 01:00:11

Okay, I heard it two weeks ago, okay.

01:00:11 --> 01:00:14

And I interviewed Dr. Akram Nadawi because he's

01:00:14 --> 01:00:15

a public, I'll mention names, okay?

01:00:15 --> 01:00:17

And I interviewed Dr. Hatim Al-Haj about

01:00:17 --> 01:00:18

these issues.

01:00:18 --> 01:00:20

And my views are also known, okay?

01:00:20 --> 01:00:22

Us four, I mentioned by name because they're

01:00:22 --> 01:00:22

all public.

01:00:23 --> 01:00:26

Our views are very close when it comes

01:00:26 --> 01:00:29

to Muslims living in modern times under secular

01:00:29 --> 01:00:30

lands, very close.

01:00:31 --> 01:00:33

We, and especially me, because I don't know

01:00:33 --> 01:00:36

why it's just me, we are extremely criticized

01:00:36 --> 01:00:38

by many other strands.

01:00:39 --> 01:00:42

We're actually called sellouts, deviants, CIA agents, RAND

01:00:42 --> 01:00:44

agents, reformers, whatnot.

01:00:44 --> 01:00:45

You all know this, right?

01:00:46 --> 01:00:48

This is an example of a modern theological

01:00:48 --> 01:00:50

battle taking place in front of your eyes.

01:00:50 --> 01:00:53

It's literally a new battle taking place because

01:00:53 --> 01:00:57

we are attempting to navigate living in the

01:00:57 --> 01:00:58

lands that we live in in a very

01:00:58 --> 01:01:00

different way than our context.

01:01:00 --> 01:01:01

Are you called any of that by people

01:01:01 --> 01:01:04

with any kudos?

01:01:04 --> 01:01:07

Or like, are you equating social media comments

01:01:07 --> 01:01:13

with- Are you misunderstood, Sheikh, or is

01:01:13 --> 01:01:15

it that you're- Is that you're a

01:01:15 --> 01:01:16

CIA agent?

01:01:16 --> 01:01:16

No, no, no.

01:01:18 --> 01:01:19

Where's my paycheck, man?

01:01:19 --> 01:01:26

Is it genuinely that you're bringing something different

01:01:26 --> 01:01:28

or people are misunderstanding you?

01:01:28 --> 01:01:31

Are they really understanding the points that you're

01:01:31 --> 01:01:31

making?

01:01:31 --> 01:01:32

Both, both are there.

01:01:33 --> 01:01:37

I am- Look at what I just

01:01:37 --> 01:01:37

said about aqeedah.

01:01:39 --> 01:01:43

Very few people are this blunt about saying

01:01:43 --> 01:01:44

I don't care about the sifat controversy.

01:01:45 --> 01:01:47

I don't know, I think- You think

01:01:47 --> 01:01:48

there are people saying this?

01:01:48 --> 01:01:51

In my experience, it doesn't sound that outlandish.

01:01:51 --> 01:01:54

It sounds like- It feels like you're

01:01:54 --> 01:01:56

bringing your background as- Could be, then.

01:01:56 --> 01:01:57

Okay, could be.

01:01:57 --> 01:01:59

This is a huge schism, and this is,

01:01:59 --> 01:02:01

you know, people are going to cancel me,

01:02:01 --> 01:02:02

and people are going to- Well, they

01:02:02 --> 01:02:04

are, but I'm saying that- I feel,

01:02:04 --> 01:02:06

my anecdotal experience is that that's more like

01:02:06 --> 01:02:09

social media kind of banter and stuff, less

01:02:09 --> 01:02:11

so the average mulana in my masjid.

01:02:12 --> 01:02:13

You know, even the Deobandi mulana in my

01:02:13 --> 01:02:16

masjid, even if you push cuffs to shove,

01:02:16 --> 01:02:17

he'll probably agree with most of the stuff

01:02:17 --> 01:02:18

you said.

01:02:18 --> 01:02:21

Likewise, you know, the moderate- I think

01:02:21 --> 01:02:23

my experiences with clerics is different than yours,

01:02:23 --> 01:02:23

then.

01:02:24 --> 01:02:26

Yeah, clerics that are trained- Maybe you

01:02:26 --> 01:02:27

rubbed them up differently.

01:02:28 --> 01:02:29

Cleric, could be, could be.

01:02:29 --> 01:02:31

Because, you know, with peers that you get

01:02:31 --> 01:02:32

a bit of- Yeah, that are trained

01:02:32 --> 01:02:37

in their traditions generally don't appreciate this sentiment.

01:02:37 --> 01:02:38

And I suppose an expert- They don't

01:02:38 --> 01:02:42

mind level two, and level two is, okay,

01:02:42 --> 01:02:44

I'm right, you're wrong, but we're still-

01:02:44 --> 01:02:45

Let's live and let live.

01:02:45 --> 01:02:45

They don't mind that.

01:02:46 --> 01:02:47

That, if you're talking about that, I agree

01:02:47 --> 01:02:47

with you.

01:02:48 --> 01:02:49

I'm not- Level two is fine, and

01:02:49 --> 01:02:51

I'm happy if you get there, but for

01:02:51 --> 01:02:53

the intellectuals, we need to get to level

01:02:53 --> 01:02:53

three.

01:02:53 --> 01:02:55

But you, within all this, I think part

01:02:55 --> 01:02:56

of what it is is you see when

01:02:56 --> 01:02:59

you're shining a light on, and I don't

01:02:59 --> 01:03:00

want to say criticizing, because I don't think

01:03:00 --> 01:03:02

it's criticism, but you're shining a light on

01:03:02 --> 01:03:07

what many people's lives, entire scholarship has been

01:03:07 --> 01:03:08

built upon.

01:03:09 --> 01:03:12

Then it's like you're taking away the foundations.

01:03:13 --> 01:03:14

And- What's the goal of doing that?

01:03:16 --> 01:03:17

For them to- No, for me.

01:03:17 --> 01:03:18

What is the goal?

01:03:18 --> 01:03:19

No, no, there isn't a- But I

01:03:19 --> 01:03:20

don't think you are, Sheikh.

01:03:20 --> 01:03:21

This is what I'm saying.

01:03:21 --> 01:03:23

We see what you may think is implied,

01:03:23 --> 01:03:27

that actually you're building upon, it's how you've

01:03:27 --> 01:03:29

understood the tradition, and you're bringing it into

01:03:29 --> 01:03:31

how it's manifested today.

01:03:31 --> 01:03:34

It's very different to saying, I disagree with

01:03:34 --> 01:03:34

the tradition.

01:03:35 --> 01:03:37

And sometimes it comes out as if you

01:03:37 --> 01:03:39

are pushing yourself away from the tradition.

01:03:40 --> 01:03:42

Just, and it doesn't help people understand what

01:03:42 --> 01:03:43

you're saying.

01:03:43 --> 01:03:46

So the tradition is how we got here.

01:03:46 --> 01:03:48

We wouldn't be here without the tradition.

01:03:48 --> 01:03:52

So where there's no need to rethink or

01:03:52 --> 01:03:54

change, we should stick to the tradition, without

01:03:54 --> 01:03:55

a doubt.

01:03:55 --> 01:04:00

But where circumstances force us, where we find

01:04:00 --> 01:04:04

the tradition is simply not working, then let

01:04:04 --> 01:04:07

us go back and see, is the tradition

01:04:07 --> 01:04:10

itself the religion of Allah, or is it

01:04:10 --> 01:04:11

a development from the religion?

01:04:13 --> 01:04:15

So the default, and this is where I

01:04:15 --> 01:04:17

say I'm different from the modernists and progressives,

01:04:17 --> 01:04:19

because I do, don't like the Rasul.

01:04:20 --> 01:04:22

The default is we stick to the tradition.

01:04:22 --> 01:04:26

And we admire the tradition, with the recognition

01:04:26 --> 01:04:28

that the tradition is a man-made product.

01:04:29 --> 01:04:31

But there are going to be specific issues

01:04:31 --> 01:04:34

that are going to challenge us, and life

01:04:34 --> 01:04:36

will be almost impossible or very difficult.

01:04:37 --> 01:04:40

Where that happens, let us, not me, groups

01:04:40 --> 01:04:42

of people, senior to me, elder than me,

01:04:42 --> 01:04:45

come together and then discuss those particular issues,

01:04:46 --> 01:04:49

and see, can we find a way that

01:04:49 --> 01:04:51

respects the religion of Allah, because we can

01:04:51 --> 01:04:52

never compromise.

01:04:52 --> 01:04:55

There is no reformation in the deen of

01:04:55 --> 01:04:55

Allah.

01:04:56 --> 01:04:58

But the interpretations of men, without a doubt,

01:04:59 --> 01:05:00

that's interpretations of men.

01:05:00 --> 01:05:02

So who's going to make that distinction?

01:05:03 --> 01:05:03

Qualified people.

01:05:04 --> 01:05:05

I am the least of them, but perhaps,

01:05:06 --> 01:05:07

inshallah, I can sit in the room with

01:05:07 --> 01:05:07

them.

01:05:07 --> 01:05:08

And I can do that.

01:05:08 --> 01:05:09

So like I said, listen to the, I

01:05:09 --> 01:05:11

liked the interview with Dr. Haitham.

01:05:11 --> 01:05:14

I liked the interview with, you had it

01:05:14 --> 01:05:15

with another person as well.

01:05:16 --> 01:05:17

And then I gave two interviews with Dr.

01:05:18 --> 01:05:18

Akram.

01:05:18 --> 01:05:19

Tom as well, inshallah, good.

01:05:19 --> 01:05:21

Before, I forgot, Dr. Akram as well, and

01:05:21 --> 01:05:22

Dr. Hatim Al-Hajj.

01:05:23 --> 01:05:25

I asked the viewers that are watching, forget

01:05:25 --> 01:05:27

me, go listen to these other three guys.

01:05:27 --> 01:05:30

Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad, Dr. Akram Radhawi, Dr.

01:05:30 --> 01:05:30

Hatim Al-Hajj.

01:05:30 --> 01:05:32

They're all older than me in age.

01:05:32 --> 01:05:33

They're all wiser than me in experience.

01:05:34 --> 01:05:35

They're all more knowledgeable than me.

01:05:35 --> 01:05:38

And all of them are saying pretty much

01:05:38 --> 01:05:41

what I am saying, is that, yes, theory

01:05:41 --> 01:05:42

is great.

01:05:42 --> 01:05:44

But right now, we're living under a nation

01:05:44 --> 01:05:45

state.

01:05:45 --> 01:05:47

Right now, we have to carve a way

01:05:47 --> 01:05:50

out, understanding that it might have to rethink

01:05:50 --> 01:05:52

through some of the simplistic notions we had

01:05:52 --> 01:05:52

in the past.

01:05:52 --> 01:05:54

This is not a rejection of the religion

01:05:54 --> 01:05:55

of Allah.

01:05:55 --> 01:05:59

It is actually the proper manifestation of how

01:05:59 --> 01:06:01

it should be applied, given our context.

01:06:01 --> 01:06:03

But also within that, I think we can

01:06:03 --> 01:06:05

say, Sheikh, that I have the humility to

01:06:05 --> 01:06:07

say that, and some mistakes may be made.

01:06:07 --> 01:06:09

Of course, but it's a journey, right?

01:06:09 --> 01:06:11

Of course, but it's better than hiding your

01:06:11 --> 01:06:11

head in the sand.

01:06:12 --> 01:06:12

Exactly.

01:06:13 --> 01:06:14

That's not going to get you anywhere.

01:06:15 --> 01:06:15

Yeah.

01:06:15 --> 01:06:16

Which is what traditionalism does.

01:06:16 --> 01:06:17

Yeah.

01:06:17 --> 01:06:20

It's better than saying that we cannot change

01:06:20 --> 01:06:23

anything because the human product that we have

01:06:23 --> 01:06:24

inherited is the religion of Allah.

01:06:24 --> 01:06:26

No, that's not correct.

01:06:26 --> 01:06:28

So yes, all of us are going to

01:06:28 --> 01:06:29

make some mistakes, all of us.

01:06:30 --> 01:06:33

But we hope, inshallah, that people will come

01:06:33 --> 01:06:35

and help us correct the mistakes and make

01:06:35 --> 01:06:38

a bigger and better product for the future,

01:06:38 --> 01:06:40

rather than pull people down for the small

01:06:40 --> 01:06:40

mistakes that are made.

01:06:41 --> 01:06:43

So you mentioned, like, Muslims vis-a-vis

01:06:43 --> 01:06:47

the secular nation state, the secularism today, that

01:06:47 --> 01:06:49

could be one of the kind of fault

01:06:49 --> 01:06:52

lines that emerge, or historians might look back

01:06:52 --> 01:06:52

at.

01:06:52 --> 01:06:54

I'm mentioning these so we can kind of

01:06:54 --> 01:06:56

preempt it and maybe lay the foundations for

01:06:56 --> 01:06:59

being careful not to let these kind of

01:06:59 --> 01:07:01

schisms become too extreme.

01:07:01 --> 01:07:05

I don't think they're going to result in

01:07:05 --> 01:07:08

the creation of actual sectarian lines, but they're

01:07:08 --> 01:07:09

going to be trends.

01:07:10 --> 01:07:13

I mean, maybe the early, you know...

01:07:13 --> 01:07:15

I don't see this happening, but you never

01:07:15 --> 01:07:15

know.

01:07:15 --> 01:07:16

Proponents of the Kalam and arguers against it.

01:07:17 --> 01:07:17

Couldn't be, you never know.

01:07:18 --> 01:07:19

But yeah, so sectarian, I mean, so you're

01:07:19 --> 01:07:21

going to find these trends when it comes

01:07:21 --> 01:07:21

to this issue.

01:07:21 --> 01:07:25

Obviously another major elephant in the room is

01:07:25 --> 01:07:27

the issue of gender wars taking place right

01:07:27 --> 01:07:29

now about the role of men and women.

01:07:29 --> 01:07:30

And as you know, this is one of

01:07:30 --> 01:07:32

the biggest, hottest topics online.

01:07:32 --> 01:07:34

You know, how should men and women, what

01:07:34 --> 01:07:35

does it mean to be a Muslim man

01:07:35 --> 01:07:36

in our times?

01:07:36 --> 01:07:39

And again, my views are somewhere along the

01:07:39 --> 01:07:40

spectrum, and you've got people to the right

01:07:40 --> 01:07:41

of me, to be beloved to me.

01:07:41 --> 01:07:42

So it is what it is, you know.

01:07:42 --> 01:07:47

Another is going to be political participation, which

01:07:47 --> 01:07:48

is a very, very awkward.

01:07:49 --> 01:07:50

And we haven't solved this problem.

01:07:50 --> 01:07:52

We have not solved this problem.

01:07:52 --> 01:07:52

We have.

01:07:53 --> 01:07:54

You definitely have not.

01:07:55 --> 01:07:56

100% you have not.

01:07:56 --> 01:07:57

We have because we have a Muslim mayor

01:07:57 --> 01:07:58

and a Muslim president.

01:07:58 --> 01:07:58

Okay, yeah.

01:07:58 --> 01:07:59

Muslim prime minister.

01:08:00 --> 01:08:00

Actually forget it.

01:08:01 --> 01:08:02

I'm worried about these 20 mile an hour

01:08:02 --> 01:08:02

zones.

01:08:03 --> 01:08:03

Alhamdulillah.

01:08:03 --> 01:08:04

20 miles an hour.

01:08:05 --> 01:08:07

The American viewership has no idea what you're

01:08:07 --> 01:08:07

talking about.

01:08:07 --> 01:08:10

But the biggest criticism Salman Bhai has of

01:08:10 --> 01:08:13

his mayor is that he has lowered the

01:08:13 --> 01:08:15

speed limit to 20 miles an hour.

01:08:16 --> 01:08:19

And Salman Bhai is so angry that he's

01:08:19 --> 01:08:20

going to cancel the mayor.

01:08:23 --> 01:08:25

Let's wrap it up then, inshallah.

01:08:25 --> 01:08:26

It's been a marathon one.

01:08:26 --> 01:08:31

Jazakumullahu khairan, Dr. Sheikh Yasir Qadhi for joining

01:08:31 --> 01:08:32

us.

01:08:32 --> 01:08:34

And jazakumullahu khairan for you at home and

01:08:34 --> 01:08:36

also Omar as well for sorting out the

01:08:36 --> 01:08:36

offices.

01:08:36 --> 01:08:37

Jazakumullahu khairan.

01:08:37 --> 01:08:39

Thanks for watching, tuning in.

01:08:39 --> 01:08:42

Let us know in the comments, you know,

01:08:42 --> 01:08:43

if you agree, disagree, if you want to

01:08:43 --> 01:08:44

refute.

01:08:44 --> 01:08:45

Anyone here?

01:08:46 --> 01:08:46

Anyone here?

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