Tom Facchine – The Surprising Reason Behind Imam ‘S Journey To Islam

Tom Facchine
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The conversation discusses the history of postivaism and how it has been used to benefit Muslims. It is a disease and not healthy lifestyle, and modernity is a false universalistic movement. Post historicism is responding to the " pest Ready" movement, and it is a response to the " pesteless" movement. The "monarch" concept is used to describe groups and people who do not fit a definition, and the "monarch" concept is used to describe the behavior of men. The speakers emphasize the importance of self-conscious and acknowledging one's own values and emotions to create a safe and healthy relationship.

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			Let's do the compulsory if I could speak
		
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			so loud.
		
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			Yeah. Mom, it's like we haven't been with
		
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			each other all the weekend.
		
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			But, you know, one thing, that was really
		
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			interesting that led
		
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			me to Islam. Yeah. I thought I had
		
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			to,
		
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			you know, went to interrogate this a bit.
		
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			Definitely. So what's your manhaj?
		
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			Do I need to make my, my Shahada?
		
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			Shahada. Yeah.
		
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			Yeah.
		
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			So, yeah, a lot of people misunderstand,
		
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			postmodernism and post structuralism. And they kind of
		
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			borrowed this from the right because the right
		
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			kind of critiques the left. Obviously, everybody knows
		
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			the excesses,
		
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			and the
		
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			crimes of the left.
		
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			But I always get kind of annoyed, guys.
		
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			Yeah. I mean,
		
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			I've always even critical of,
		
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			you know, messing with the left and the
		
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			right, but
		
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			I always say to others, don't just want
		
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			to enter debates amongst rival factions of the
		
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			fathers Exactly. And pick sides. Exactly. Because you're
		
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			gonna end up making mistakes and you're gonna
		
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			end up, joining the debate on their terms
		
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			and not even realize what you're talking about.
		
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			So you look at the right, people like
		
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			Jordan Peterson, etcetera, you know, they criticize the
		
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			left as neo Marxism, as, you know, postmodernism,
		
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			and then those are the evil things, and
		
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			that's all that's responsible.
		
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			That's very crude. And, like, you know, with
		
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			all due respect to Jordan Peterson, he has
		
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			no idea what he's talking about when it
		
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			comes to social theory or the intellectual theory
		
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			intellectual history of the west.
		
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			You know, there's
		
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			some
		
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			strands
		
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			of postmodern
		
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			thought that are actually really useful,
		
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			and actually are part of my conversion story,
		
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			believe it or not,
		
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			such as, you know,
		
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			just the idea of deconstruction. Right? Now the
		
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			problem that they're responding to is the idea
		
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			that everything should be deconstructed. And, of course,
		
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			that's where you get into absurdities. That's where
		
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			you get into relativism. That's where you get
		
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			into there is no truth. Everything is liquid.
		
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			Everything is plastic. And, obviously, as Muslims, we
		
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			reject that. But the answer is not to
		
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			go back to, like,
		
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			before postmodernity
		
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			to, like, the enlightenment values and the classical
		
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			liberalism and stuff
		
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			Peterson would have because those are equally problematic,
		
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			you know, if not even more problematic on
		
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			some parts. I tell brothers, like, in in
		
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			your attack of postmodernism, you're actually accidentally
		
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			championing modernism.
		
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			Exactly. And people don't understand what that entails.
		
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			Like, people don't realize that all reform movements,
		
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			true reformist movements within Islam are modernist movements.
		
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			In the sense that there's a paradigm and
		
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			a certain understanding of history that history is
		
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			progressive and it gets better. Right? And so
		
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			that enables
		
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			people to say, well, okay, the prophet
		
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			he introduced
		
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			certain things like reforms, like justice and now
		
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			we have to take them further in different
		
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			ways that
		
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			conveniently conform to modern liberal values,
		
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			instead of looking at the past as a
		
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			paradigmatic
		
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			anchor, which is like that's the best generation.
		
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			Right?
		
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			So the
		
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			the postmodernism,
		
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			poststructuralism,
		
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			what we we we wanna call certain elements
		
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			Yeah. Would you say it's it's correct to
		
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			say that
		
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			they they deconstruct? And then and and,
		
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			you know, using those tools or benefiting from
		
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			those tools, it's beneficial.
		
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			The problem is,
		
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			one of the problems is once they deconstruct
		
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			something,
		
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			you know, lots of people without realizing they
		
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			construct something from their own Yes. Paradigm. Or
		
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			they're left with nothing. And that's the the
		
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			purposelessness and the aimlessness of sort of you
		
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			know, the cultural aspects.
		
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			Exactly. So you think about it like this,
		
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			modernism
		
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			is a disease
		
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			and postmodernism
		
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			is a is a poison that kills the
		
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			disease.
		
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			Right? But it's poison
		
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			and so it's not gonna make you healthy.
		
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			Right? So like post modernism is really useful
		
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			for deconstructing and taking the wind out of
		
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			the sails and dismantling modernism.
		
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			Right? So it's not useless. It's not useless,
		
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			but it also isn't constructive. It doesn't leave
		
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			you with anything. And so if you don't
		
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			have an Islamic paradigm or Islamic worldview
		
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			to be able to after that or to
		
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			displace it with that, then you're left with
		
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			nothing. What if someone says you don't need
		
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			first model, then we can we we can
		
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			do other things that cause the disease.
		
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			Like what? What what else has
		
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			I mean, it hasn't well okay. I mean,
		
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			it it can, but I mean, like,
		
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			you have to be able to understand what
		
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			modernism is
		
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			and what are its values and how to
		
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			respond back. I mean, we live in The
		
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			problem is not knowing what modernism and postmodernism
		
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			is. Yeah. So can you Yeah. Sure. So
		
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			modernism is a nutshell. You think of it
		
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			of as the enlightenment. Like the enlightenment embodies
		
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			modernism in a sense that, you know and
		
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			there's subcurrents and, you know, okay. It it
		
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			the map is always
		
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			more
		
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			simpler than the terrain. There's you know countercurrents
		
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			and subcurrents or whatever but the main thrust
		
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			of modernity
		
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			is
		
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			that we can come to objective knowledge, dispassionate
		
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			knowledge about everything. We can construct a universal
		
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			justice, universal
		
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			with through a universal culture based off of
		
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			universal reason,
		
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			you know.
		
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			And so that was, you know, responsible for
		
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			obviously the big push to colonialism
		
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			and sort of, like, not valuing other people's
		
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			systems of reason and traditions of reason and
		
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			things like that. You know, and there's lots
		
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			of sort of, you know, either aesthetic or
		
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			epistemological
		
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			sort of decisions and valuations that were made.
		
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			Right? The written word over the spoken word.
		
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			You know, oral tradition is seen as something
		
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			unreliable.
		
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			Right? Religion is seen as something that's superstitious
		
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			and taboo.
		
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			Right, versus sort of the cold objective knowledge
		
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			of the west. Right? So
		
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			that's
		
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			modernism in a nutshell. And
		
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			what was what happened was that basically,
		
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			the postmodern movement is response to that movement
		
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			and basically saying hold up, Your supposedly
		
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			universal values and knowledge and judgments are actually
		
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			particular.
		
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			They are not universal. They don't apply to
		
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			everybody. They're particular to Europe, maybe even particular
		
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			to white Europe or to male Europe. Of
		
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			course, that's where we get feminism and stuff
		
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			like this. And we're not endorsing it. But
		
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			we're saying that's the idea is that it's
		
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			responding to this over or this let's call
		
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			it a false universalism because we believe that
		
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			Islam is universal and the universalism.
		
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			But modernism is kind of a false universalism
		
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			that postmodernism
		
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			is responding to. And in order to respond
		
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			to it, postmodernism's
		
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			move is basically like there is no universalism.
		
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			There is nothing that's universal. Truth is just,
		
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			you know, it's malleable. It's it's plastic. It's
		
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			liquid or historicism where
		
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			now everything's a
		
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			product of
		
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			history. Everything's a
		
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			product of, you historicism where now everything's a
		
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			product of history. Everything's a product of,
		
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			your privilege, your positionality, your subjectivity, these sorts
		
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			of things.
		
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			So that's really an effective tool to shutting
		
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			up a modernist. The saying was like, okay.
		
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			You think that,
		
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			Western science is like the end all be
		
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			all. No. Actually, no. It's very particular. It's
		
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			very it's got assumptions. It's got values. It's
		
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			got an epistemology.
		
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			It's got cosmology. It's got an idea of
		
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			anthropology. What is the human being? So those
		
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			are postmodern critiques of modernism,
		
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			but they don't build anything. So that's the
		
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			thing. So you can use it as a
		
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			knife, as a bomb to blow up, to
		
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			destroy, to dismantle, but then you have to
		
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			have something else.
		
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			I can't say,
		
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			Yeah. Oh, I shouldn't, yeah, I shouldn't have
		
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			said that second thing. Let's stick to pre
		
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			modern weaponry. No. You can't say, I was
		
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			gonna say you can't say,
		
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			your nice, juicy sandbox are in such a
		
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			public place.
		
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			Yeah.
		
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			Yeah. But yeah. It has to but it
		
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			doesn't leave you with anything. And that's where
		
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			Islam has to the historical moment that we're
		
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			in, a lot of people have, you know,
		
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			been taken by postmodernism
		
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			in some form whether it's like the super,
		
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			like, pop culture form of it or the
		
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			more theoretical forms of it.
		
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			Islam now but people have realized the consequences
		
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			now culturally of only destroying. Yeah. Only destroying
		
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			leaves you fractured. It leaves you without
		
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			relationships, without culture, without community, without purpose. It's
		
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			very alienating. And so that's where people are
		
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			really feeling those those those things now. So
		
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			that's where now historically at this moment Islam
		
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			could step in and say, look, you didn't
		
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			have to throw out the baby with the
		
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			bath water. You didn't have to get rid
		
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			of everything or deconstruct everything. It was important
		
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			to deconstruct modernity. It was important to deconstruct
		
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			the the project of the enlightenment.
		
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			But there is truth. There is objective to
		
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			truth, but it comes doesn't come from human
		
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			beings. Doesn't come from universal reason. It comes
		
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			from Allah. It comes from the divine. Some
		
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			Muslims that
		
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			that shout about postmodernism, against postmodernism,
		
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			and at the same time, you know, complain
		
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			about modernity.
		
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			They are themselves postmodernists.
		
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			Most people just don't understand. Most people don't
		
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			understand what postmodernism really is, and it's not
		
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			their fault because, again, there's a difference between
		
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			what goes on in the academy, books, like,
		
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			you know, it's like, you know, there's a
		
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			huge difference between Foucault and these deconstructuralists and
		
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			the reading them in the academy and then
		
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			how they're
		
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			interpreted and then deployed
		
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			in real time in the real culture.
		
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			Right?
		
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			I mean, I mean, it's football. I
		
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			Manon is a giant, you know He's a
		
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			shaytan. Yeah. He's a shaytan. Yeah. But some
		
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			of his books are awesome.
		
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			It's awesome to read. Yeah. Yeah. And deconstructing
		
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			kind of some more popular,
		
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			notion where modernity and the the the
		
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			things that the, you know, secular
		
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			states today, you know, claim about themselves. Yeah.
		
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			What what was it about Foucault that kind
		
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			of, you know, led led you to Islam?
		
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			Yeah. No. I mean, the the hadith of,
		
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			reminds you of,
		
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			like, right? It's
		
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			like,
		
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			you know, he he spoke the truth even
		
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			if he's a liar, you know.
		
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			The
		
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			most, I think, important book of Foucault is
		
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			the order of things and that's the one
		
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			that I read in undergrad that really sort
		
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			of shifted my thinking and got me into
		
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			the idea of of genealogical
		
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			work, what he calls and what the postmodernists
		
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			call genealogy.
		
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			Genealogy is just basically trying to trace back
		
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			how do we get here.
		
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			Right? We have certain sensibilities, we have certain
		
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			thoughts about things.
		
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			They didn't come from nowhere. They're not self
		
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			evidently true. So where do they come from,
		
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			right?
		
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			You know, for example, the idea of the
		
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			nuclear family. Right?
		
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			The idea that,
		
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			of a 2 income household. The idea of,
		
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			you know, all these sorts of things, these
		
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			sensibilities that we have,
		
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			you know. So for example, yeah, we were
		
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			talking before about how someone kind of challenged
		
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			me because I'm very critical about feminism and
		
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			things like that and they're like, well, I
		
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			love my career. Like, I'm not miserable. Things
		
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			like that. And they're like, well, I love
		
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			my career. Like, I'm not miserable. I'm not
		
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			like the slave of some, like, you know,
		
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			jerk boss who's hitting on me. Like, I
		
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			actually love my career. I I I chose
		
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			it and I'm very fulfilled.
		
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			And my point was, like, you know, like
		
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			Foucault would say, how much did you really
		
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			choose it? I love my I love my
		
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			career, but I can't wait till the weekend.
		
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			Yeah. No. Right. Exactly. Well, that's a different,
		
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			that's a different critique. But but yeah, no.
		
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			Foucault would push you to think, well, what
		
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			is, what is, what is choice really? Because
		
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			you grew up in a society that was
		
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			not neutral to this decision. It had values
		
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			and it values one thing over the other
		
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			and it's going to deploy a certain power
		
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			in order to get you to choose one
		
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			over the other, whether it's cultural sort of
		
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			influence, shame, exactly, valuation, you know, people telling
		
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			you since you're a little kid, it's like,
		
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			oh, you're gonna do great things, you know,
		
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			what do you wanna be when you grow
		
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			up? Oh, yeah. It's like, I wanna be
		
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			a good person that gets an agenda. Nobody
		
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			says that. They say, I wanna what it's
		
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			your employment. Right? So we're valued by our
		
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			employment. Like, these are very particular things. How
		
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			space do you serve maybe for production? Yeah.
		
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			Of course. How much we yeah. We we
		
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			trash old people. Old people are useless within,
		
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			you know, our capitalist system because they're not
		
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			they don't produce. Somebody looks after old people
		
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			as a job gets paid or, you know
		
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			Yes. Profit for some some shareholders somewhere, then
		
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			they're fulfilling their potential. Right. They have to
		
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			monetize. To their own parents.
		
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			Uh-huh. Oh, no. They're just, well, how's that?
		
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			Exactly. It has to be read in the
		
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			economy as a wageable sort of taxable and
		
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			just taxable,
		
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			you know, income earning sort of scheme. Right?
		
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			It's this commodification of of labor, the commodification
		
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			of the self, putting numbers to it, evaluating
		
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			it, very materialistic.
		
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			Right? So, Foucault gets us to think about,
		
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			well, what led you to make that choice
		
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			and how much can we say that choice
		
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			was really yours? And obviously that can be
		
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			taken to a ridiculous extreme. Yeah. It was
		
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			your choice morally
		
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			but let's not pretend that there weren't influences
		
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			that shaped which one seemed exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
		
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			Yeah. He's a little bit no. People who
		
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			took him to an extreme and he didn't
		
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			say that. That's not actually what Foucault said
		
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			but some people interpreted him or misinterpret him
		
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			as Fadriz like just like, you know, it's
		
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			like you have and that's actually where we
		
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			get identity politics from. Like if like the
		
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			idea that, you know, you are determined
		
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			to only be able to say certain things
		
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			if you're a a white straight man. White,
		
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			you know, the the cis het
		
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			patriarchy. Right? Supposedly, what's the critique there? The
		
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			idea is that your identity and positionality
		
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			determines,
		
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			hard stop, what you can say, what you
		
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			can think. You can't represent justly
		
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			somebody with darker skin than you, somebody who's
		
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			not straight, etcetera, whatever, you know, which is
		
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			false. Straight. Quote, unquote straight. Yeah. Right? And
		
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			then we say right. Do that now. Yeah.
		
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			Right? Yeah. Yeah. Who knows?
		
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			But
		
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			so so, you know, that's kind of taking
		
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			Foucault to an extreme that he didn't I
		
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			don't think that he actually espoused. But Foucault
		
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			was trying to get us to seriously think
		
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			about what constitutes us, right, to go in
		
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			a self introspective sort of journey of, you
		
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			know, what are the factors in society and
		
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			elsewhere that shaped me to have my sensibility
		
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			in the first place that I would like
		
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			a career as opposed to staying at home,
		
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			you know, etcetera. So that that kind of
		
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			spirit of Foucauld led you to question Definitely.
		
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			So I came into undergrad as an atheist,
		
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			as an anarchist, left. I'm a feminist. I
		
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			took women's studies classes, like, all this sort
		
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			of stuff, you know, and then
		
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			Foucault and and Friends, that whole sort of,
		
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			you know, intellectual tradition got me to do
		
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			a genealogy of myself.
		
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			And at the same time, I was studying
		
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			post colonial theory. Right? So that showed me
		
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			an international dimension about how the same sort
		
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			of beliefs and values that the enlightenment
		
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			held were wielded in a colonial way upon
		
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			mostly the Muslim world and and and elsewhere.
		
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			And so that's kind of put I I
		
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			quickly kind of came to see how epistemologically
		
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			the Islamic world and Islam was the only
		
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			serious challenge
		
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			to the episteme of the West.
		
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			And that just made me really super curious.
		
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			I was super interested in it and that
		
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			started this whole sort
		
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			of that was like a deconstruction reconstruction phase.
		
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			That was what was happening in my life.
		
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			I was basically deconstructing myself and sort of,
		
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			you know, having taking a genealogy of the
		
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			things that I had believed in up until
		
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			that point.
		
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			And then at the same time, I was
		
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			becoming exposed to Islam through various contacts and
		
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			friends and things like that and seeing that
		
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			there was another way possible,
		
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			and a a way that was very, very
		
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			appealing.
		
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			So you said
		
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			Islam is the only challenge to the western
		
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			episteme. Can you
		
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			can you
		
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			expand what you mean by epistemic?
		
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			Sure. Epistemic, well, it's just how we know
		
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			what we know, but it's certain values about
		
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			sort of,
		
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			that affect your worldview and affect everything else
		
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			downstream
		
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			of it. Right? So when it comes to
		
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			you know, if you wanna if you wanna
		
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			see the western epic scene, like, represented in
		
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			a very crude but honest way, read, what's
		
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			his face?
		
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			You know, the guy who got, you know,
		
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			Salman Rushdie.
		
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			It's not his books, but he has an
		
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			essay. And he, like, has this
		
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			stupid rant that he goes on where he
		
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			says that, like,
		
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			this, you know,
		
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			West is about eating bacon and short skirts
		
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			and kissing in public and stuff like that.
		
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			Like, he actually like, the mask is off
		
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			completely, and he's, like, basically talking about when
		
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			we talk about fighting for freedom, it's like
		
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			this is what we're talking about. Like, no,
		
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			true westerner would would be so impolite to
		
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			say those things out loud but he kind
		
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			of took the mask off and showed that,
		
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			you know, this is really kind of it's
		
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			about. Right? This idea of, let's say, bot
		
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			bodily autonomy. Right? Thinking that I own myself
		
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			in an absolute way. Right? That's part of
		
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			the western episteme. Thus, because I own myself
		
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			absolutely,
		
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			I get to do whatever I want with
		
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			myself. So now I have the right to
		
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			express every desire that comes that comes about
		
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			inside of me. And in fact, my sort
		
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			of satisfaction in life depends upon
		
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			my
		
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			exercising and realizing and actual izing that desire,
		
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			forming an identity around those desires. All that
		
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			stuff comes from the western episteme.
		
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			You own your body. Your body is the
		
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			site of your desires. Your desires are there
		
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			for you. You have to act on them
		
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			and It's central to your personhood. Yeah. It
		
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			is your personhood really because they don't believe
		
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			in a soul really. Like, not like it
		
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			so they recognize that some people believe that
		
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			there's a soul. That's not the real hard
		
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			self. Right? Like someone's had hard history in
		
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			our conference. Like like hard materialism. The real
		
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			self is just your body, your
		
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			desires, you know, your consciousness, whatever. And then
		
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			you might have some beliefs and some cultural
		
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			traditions but you know that's just like extra.
		
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			So that's the western episteme among other things.
		
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			And so you know Islamic episteme is entirely
		
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			opposed to that. You don't own yourself, at
		
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			least not absolutely.
		
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			Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala gave you yourself as
		
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			a gift
		
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			and so
		
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			be it the God that recognizes that gift
		
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			exchange,
		
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			there are strings attached, right? You can't do
		
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			with it whatever you want. There's expectations
		
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			as to how you're supposed to carry yourself.
		
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			What are your aspirations in life?
		
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			Obedience, fidelity, right, gratitude. These are things that
		
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			are baked into the relationship
		
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			of
		
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			the Islamic episteme as believing that Allah gave
		
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			you you.
		
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			Right? Totally different orientation towards life.
		
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			And then everything that's downstream of that, you
		
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			know, how are we supposed to be in
		
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			this world that we recognize ourselves as created
		
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			beings and that have been placed here in
		
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			a position of stewardship, khilafa.
		
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			Right? And so that changes our instead of
		
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			viewing,
		
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			you know, if I'm a material being that
		
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			needs a certain amount of calories every day
		
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			and all of you know, you're my competitor,
		
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			mine.
		
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			Scarcity mindset, competition, survival of the fittest, stuff
		
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			like that. There's all these things that it
		
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			sets off. Whereas if I believe that this
		
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			is, you know, a gift and
		
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			I'm a steward, then my relationship to you
		
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			is one of care, is one of concern,
		
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			is one of compassion.
		
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			Right? Even if we disagree, let's say, you
		
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			know, for if there was like a non
		
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			Muslim here, it's like, I might hate their
		
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			decisions and hate their ideology and hate their
		
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			guts, but I still want good for them.
		
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			I want them to be guided. That's a
		
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			relationship of stewardship because Allah put me here
		
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			to care and take care of everybody, you
		
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			know. Exactly. So, you know, the everything's different.
		
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			Everything's different, you know, and that's what we're
		
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			talking about. So the Islam presents, the the
		
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			the only major challenge for the Western Palestinian.
		
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			Yes. How do you feel then when you
		
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			see
		
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			Muslims,
		
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			attacking certain western notions from a western
		
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			another western
		
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			stance. Yeah. It's maddening because they're basically it's
		
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			basically suicide,
		
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			you know, intellectual suicide
		
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			because,
		
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			we don't realize
		
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			this is the use. Here we go again.
		
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			The use of Foucault and the use of
		
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			Postmodernism is
		
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			taking those things seriously. How much are you
		
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			constituted by modernity?
		
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			How much are you constituted
		
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			by the, by secularism? How much are you
		
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			constituted by these ideologies that are actually destroying
		
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			Islam inside of you? Right? You need to
		
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			be able to take stock of that. Do
		
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			you see it happening on both sides of
		
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			the US culture wars when Muslims Oh, a
		
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			100%. So, you know, for the left,
		
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			my hijab, my choice, that's not an Islamic
		
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			position. Like, that's the most ridiculous sort of
		
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			thing. I want to be. I want to
		
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			be. I want to
		
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			be. Yes.
		
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			That's a great, totally photobomb.
		
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			Yeah, so my hijab, my choice is an
		
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			entirely leftist, has nothing to do with Islam.
		
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			Like, like because the the argument is from
		
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			autonomy and we don't even recognize that autonomy
		
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			within within Islam. Like autonomy is not normative
		
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			in that sort of way, right, or valued
		
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			in that sort of way. So my hijab,
		
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			my my choice is a is a perfect,
		
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			illustration of of somebody who's trying to make
		
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			it they think that they're making an argument
		
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			for Islam or they're making it from a
		
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			what Statement might be fine, whatever, but it's
		
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			built on some assumptions out of the different
		
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			way. Wrong assumptions. It's like In some sort
		
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			of really basic choice, like like, yeah, you
		
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			choose to sin or not. You choose to
		
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			obey Allah or not. To you have Onto
		
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			yeah. Exactly. You have an ontological reason but
		
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			but, prescriptively you don't have a freedom. You
		
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			have to put it on. Like you have
		
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			to wear it and, you know, if it's
		
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			gonna be worth anything, it's gonna have to
		
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			be sincerity and stuff like that. But those
		
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			are such separate issues. Right? But then, yeah,
		
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			it happens on the right too. So then
		
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			you have people that, you know,
		
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			they try to say, you know, there's there
		
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			are some Muslims that believe that again that
		
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			the solution is to go back to classical
		
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			liberalism or to accept, you know, sort of
		
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			the the right sort of version of things
		
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			and that's also equally problematic.
		
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			Right? It's like,
		
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			you know,
		
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			going back towards ideas
		
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			of of, you know, that time before postmodernism.
		
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			Like, isn't gonna do us any any good
		
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			really. We're gonna just go back to
		
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			enlightenment values that, you know, really sort of
		
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			had Islam in its crosshairs and contradict Islam
		
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			in a fundamental way,
		
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			as well.
		
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			So would you say both of them are
		
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			situated in the secularist paradigm? Oh, a 100%.
		
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			They have to you know, that's even more
		
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			foundational
		
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			than liberalism. Even if they may present themselves
		
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			in Islamic
		
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			garban. Of course. That's the
		
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			because they present themselves in Islamic garban terminology.
		
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			Somebody might say, well, I'm not secularist. I'm
		
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08
			I'm saying from an Islamic point of view,
		
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			this is They don't understand what secularism is
		
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			because secularism is not a
		
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			separation or it's not an irreligiosity. It's not
		
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			a separation of society from religion. It's the
		
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			production of a new type of religion that
		
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			is manageable by liberal values and the and
		
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			the liberal state. Right? So that's precisely like,
		
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			you know, if you wanna look at other
		
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			religious communities, look at Vatican 2, look at
		
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			Catholicism after Vatican 2. Right? Vatican 2. It's
		
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			the council they had in the sixties where
		
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			they basically said that we're gonna abandon all
		
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			our traditional teachings and and do, you know,
		
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			update modernize ourselves, get get in line with
		
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			the times like, you know, progressive values and
		
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			social justice and all these meaningless empty signifiers
		
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			that basically just meant whatever people value at
		
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			the time, we're gonna now relate to our
		
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			tradition in a way that we're cherry picking
		
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			and selecting in order to conform to sort
		
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			of whatever is the the taste of the
		
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			day.
		
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			So that's secularism in in action right there.
		
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			You say that you're religious. You say that
		
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			you're Catholic. You say that you're you're quoting
		
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			the bible. You're quoting whatever but the way
		
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			that you're interacting with your tradition, your text
		
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			is not one of submission. It's not one
		
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			of ontological or epistemological
		
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			submission. You are manipulating it and you're putting
		
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			together a new narrative that nobody's ever before
		
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			that is actually in line with modern secular
		
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			liberal values. That is secularism in a nutshell.
		
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			So that's happening to us right now. Right?
		
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			And we're the last sort of community that's
		
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			resisting and we have the stuff to beat
		
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			it, but we have to be aware. We
		
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			have to be self aware. And, like, things
		
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			like my hijab, my choice or other things
		
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			like that, that is the very way in
		
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			which secularism plays out. So you you you
		
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			kind of we were talking the the kind
		
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			of left
		
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			or or liberal. I know the different things,
		
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			but like a liberal,
		
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			my job, my choice thing. Yeah. Just for
		
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			maybe for balance. Yeah. There's something on the
		
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			right one to attack maybe so people can
		
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			see not attack, but highlight maybe certain popular
		
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			statements or sentiments
		
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			that maybe people don't realize that they're built
		
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			on
		
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			still still built on modernist or secularist foundations.
		
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			Yeah. Maybe like an I don't know. Trying
		
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			to think because I'm I'm responding to left
		
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			all the time these days. And so, like,
		
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			it's like, you know, the the nadir is
		
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			there's a a small group of people who
		
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			are who are consumed by the right. But,
		
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			maybe like the the rise of kind of
		
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			some
		
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			I was gonna say, like, yeah. Oh, yeah.
		
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			That's that's that's a good that's that's that's
		
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			a good thing. Yeah. So, like, the anti
		
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			feminism. Right? So you the all the sort
		
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			of, you know, fake post, you know, machoism
		
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			and and stuff like that. Like, a lot
		
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			of that stuff is,
		
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			is is very crude. And I don't even
		
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			know that I the the thing why I
		
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			didn't think of that I think is I
		
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			wouldn't even necessarily situate that on the right.
		
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			I don't even see how that necessarily fits
		
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			in with with what is traditionally thought of
		
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			as conservativism or or the or the right.
		
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			It is literally just a reaction. But it
		
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			is a it is a good demonstration to
		
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			show at least culturally within the culture wars,
		
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			the cultural right, Like, this sort of,
		
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			let's go into red pill stuff. Right? It's
		
00:24:01 --> 00:24:02
			like red pill, for example,
		
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			is found is the vast majority of it
		
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			is found on evolutionary biology.
		
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09
			Right, which is very, very anti Islam. Right?
		
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11
			So you've got guys that are, like,
		
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14
			women. They only value, like, you know, top
		
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16
			g's and, like, you know, like high value
		
00:24:16 --> 00:24:17
			men and you've gotta, like, you gotta work
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:19
			on your game and you've gotta, like, show
		
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			them who's and, like, all this sort of,
		
00:24:20 --> 00:24:21
			like, strategizing.
		
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			What's the ontological
		
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26
			or anthropological assumption behind that interaction? Right? You're
		
00:24:26 --> 00:24:28
			saying it it it sets it up in
		
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			sort of an adversarial
		
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			and a competitive sort of way. So if
		
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			I'm trying to attract a female which is
		
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			the scarce resources again. Exactly. It's the same
		
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			exact yeah. No. That's that's actually a really
		
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			good example. Yeah. Exactly. So it's basically scarcity
		
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			resources, competitors.
		
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			I need to basically either conquer you or
		
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			trick you in order to bait bait or
		
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			or, you know, dominate you in some sort
		
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			of way in order to reproduce with you,
		
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			which is crazy, you know.
		
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			And it's not again, that's founded in evolutionary
		
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			biology. This entire idea that of of sort
		
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			of what the human being is and what
		
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			human life is that completely
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04
			negates the possibility of an afterlife, of God,
		
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07
			of, morality, these sorts of things. Whereas the
		
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09
			prophet said it's half your deen.
		
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11
			Getting married is half your deen. Right? And
		
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			that, you know, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in
		
00:25:13 --> 00:25:14
			the Quran said that we made you into
		
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			pairs so that you would find peace with
		
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			one another. What where's the peace and sort
		
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			of, you know, I have to constantly outsmart
		
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			and yeah. No. I have to thwart my
		
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			wife and, like, this, you know, constantly sort
		
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			of like work against them this way. That's
		
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			not an Islamic paradigm. Competing with other men?
		
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			Yeah. Or competing with other men and things
		
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			like that. It's it's not an Islamic paradigm.
		
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			Right? So we end up this is what
		
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			the thing. If you're not grounded, you're gonna
		
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			end up just swinging to the other extreme.
		
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			Yeah. You know, you're going to be just
		
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			as un Islamic in the other direction. Right?
		
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			We really need to construct and reconstruct and
		
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			remind people what is the Islamic world view,
		
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			what is Islamic epistemology,
		
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			what is the Islamic idea of what a
		
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			human being is, you know, of what *
		
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			is, of what, you know, all these things,
		
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			so that they don't get blown away in
		
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56
			the culture wars. Yeah.
		
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58
			How do we do that? How do we
		
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00
			how do we what are your plans? So
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:02
			your what's your your role in your team
		
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05
			there? That's basically my my, mission statement, my,
		
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08
			my basic my mandate, like, for joining is
		
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10
			to to do this work. Right? I I
		
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12
			deconstruct and I reconstruct. So I'm supposed to
		
00:26:12 --> 00:26:13
			deconstruct,
		
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16
			everything that is anti Islamic in the culture
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18
			wars and stuff like that, modern ideologies. And
		
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20
			I'm supposed to reconstruct and present
		
00:26:21 --> 00:26:21
			and convince
		
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24
			the Islamic worldview and how it's different, distinguish
		
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			it.
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27
			And so the first step we took in
		
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29
			that is a podcast called Dog Man Disrupted.
		
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31
			So it's, you know, long form hour to
		
00:26:31 --> 00:26:32
			2 hour conversation with folks.
		
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36
			Hitting on these specific issues, exploring them. But
		
00:26:36 --> 00:26:39
			then from those conversations, we're gonna make a
		
00:26:39 --> 00:26:41
			shorter video series, like, maybe, like, 3 to
		
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42
			8 minute videos,
		
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44
			called think again where it's going to
		
00:26:45 --> 00:26:47
			focus in on these sort of discursive,
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:48
			interventions.
		
00:26:49 --> 00:26:51
			Right? These these, you know, slogans even like
		
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53
			my hijab, my choice, and things like that
		
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56
			to try to deconstruct what are the the
		
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59
			philosophical ideas under this, why they contradict Islam,
		
00:26:59 --> 00:27:00
			and what does Islam say instead.
		
00:27:01 --> 00:27:02
			And then after that gets going, the plan
		
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04
			is to even reduce that further down to
		
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07
			smaller content, 30 minute 30 seconds, 60 seconds.
		
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10
			Right? To be able to really try to
		
00:27:10 --> 00:27:11
			go for reach
		
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14
			and try to even construct new terminology.
		
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17
			Right? We need new terminology in order to
		
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19
			fight this battle because part of the the
		
00:27:19 --> 00:27:21
			terms that we use affect the way that
		
00:27:21 --> 00:27:22
			we think about things.
		
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24
			Talking about Islam as a religion
		
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27
			doesn't indicate whether it's true or not. Right?
		
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30
			Talking about it as the Haqq, Right? Like,
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:32
			it's an entirely different thing. You know?
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:33
			Talking about
		
00:27:34 --> 00:27:36
			so we know we have we have this
		
00:27:36 --> 00:27:37
			running list of untranslatables.
		
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40
			Yeah. So I'm trying to see. Yes. We
		
00:27:40 --> 00:27:44
			don't translate, for example, Iman Yes. Dean. Right.
		
00:27:44 --> 00:27:45
			We try not to, though. We don't use,
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47
			like, faith and religion and No. They're not
		
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50
			the same thing. So, yeah, we're probably gonna
		
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52
			try and build once you build enough of
		
00:27:52 --> 00:27:53
			these things, probably,
		
00:27:54 --> 00:27:55
			have some kind of page somewhere that we
		
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57
			you you can take your time express some
		
00:27:57 --> 00:27:59
			of those things. Yeah. For that. Until then,
		
00:27:59 --> 00:28:00
			you know, we we have to try and
		
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01
			use our own,
		
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04
			timbers. Timnaries is very. It is. I mean,
		
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06
			look at the difference between calling someone a
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08
			sodom ite, right, versus calling someone a homosexual.
		
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10
			Like, that is a classic example of how
		
00:28:10 --> 00:28:12
			the shift has happened,
		
00:28:13 --> 00:28:14
			to in in
		
00:28:15 --> 00:28:16
			against our favor. Right? It's put us in
		
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18
			a position where we're on a losing playing
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21
			field. Right? And so if we are going
		
00:28:21 --> 00:28:22
			to,
		
00:28:22 --> 00:28:23
			if we're going to win, we have to
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25
			come up with a new vocabulary. You know?
		
00:28:25 --> 00:28:26
			I'm not sure that we can return to
		
00:28:26 --> 00:28:28
			the old vocabulary. Maybe we can. Maybe we
		
00:28:28 --> 00:28:29
			can't. I don't know. But we can come
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31
			up with new terms that are going to
		
00:28:31 --> 00:28:32
			be able to do that work for us.
		
00:28:32 --> 00:28:33
			So,
		
00:28:34 --> 00:28:35
			so you're talking about,
		
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38
			as you said, example, sort of my homosexual,
		
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40
			like, I think, has a really nice
		
00:28:41 --> 00:28:42
			statement where he said, you know, the the
		
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44
			tracking the the creation of sexuality
		
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47
			Yeah. And the invention of sexuality in in,
		
00:28:48 --> 00:28:49
			you know, England.
		
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54
			It went from a temporal adoration to species
		
00:28:54 --> 00:28:54
			and
		
00:28:54 --> 00:28:55
			became unsocial.
		
00:28:56 --> 00:28:56
			And
		
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59
			I wish we always try to
		
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01
			warn Muslims, don't
		
00:29:01 --> 00:29:02
			try to critique
		
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05
			LGBT ideology and and and and and and
		
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08
			and and so forth from within their, Yeah.
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10
			Paradigm because they're fighting one hand and one
		
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12
			way back. Yeah. This this paradigm, this term
		
00:29:12 --> 00:29:15
			discourse only allows 2 characters. Mhmm. Number 1,
		
00:29:15 --> 00:29:17
			the enlightened ally. Number 2, the bigoted, you
		
00:29:17 --> 00:29:17
			know, harmful.
		
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20
			So what do you say to I mean,
		
00:29:20 --> 00:29:21
			this is happening in in schools in the
		
00:29:21 --> 00:29:22
			US right now.
		
00:29:23 --> 00:29:24
			Pride Month, for example,
		
00:29:25 --> 00:29:26
			you know, if somebody's
		
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28
			and doesn't wanna, you know, sign a card
		
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31
			or wear rainbow face paint, whatever, at work,
		
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34
			What how would you say they you know,
		
00:29:34 --> 00:29:36
			at the moment, they talk almost they they're
		
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38
			given, an allowed
		
00:29:39 --> 00:29:40
			set of terminologies
		
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42
			Yes. That they're or or or an episteme
		
00:29:43 --> 00:29:46
			that they're allowed to express a disagreement within.
		
00:29:46 --> 00:29:48
			Yeah. It's not an Islamic one. Yes. So
		
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50
			how would so they end up becoming maybe
		
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52
			copying right them Christian or whatever,
		
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55
			kind of attacks. What would you say to
		
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58
			Muslim parents? Or from your perspective in the
		
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00
			US, what do you say? Muslim is coming,
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02
			asking you about why can't Muslim take find
		
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05
			this x y zed at work or in
		
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07
			in school? Yeah. It's an extremely important,
		
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09
			question, and that's part of the idea behind
		
00:30:09 --> 00:30:12
			the whole navigating differences document that we tried
		
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13
			to give people a thing that they could
		
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16
			just take and hand to somebody that they
		
00:30:16 --> 00:30:18
			didn't have to make that argument themselves because
		
00:30:18 --> 00:30:19
			it is tricky business.
		
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22
			Actually, I was having conversations with groups both
		
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24
			in the US and in in Canada for
		
00:30:24 --> 00:30:27
			what's the the most effective discourse to use
		
00:30:27 --> 00:30:29
			when trying to carve out the space. And
		
00:30:29 --> 00:30:30
			there's a lot of disagreement
		
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32
			and each one has pros and cons. Nothing's
		
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34
			perfect. Some people are trying to focus on
		
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36
			parental rights and that has pros and cons.
		
00:30:36 --> 00:30:38
			Right? Because that obviously
		
00:30:47 --> 00:30:48
			a It's like you're a minority, we're a
		
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51
			minority. I think obviously that's demonstrated that
		
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53
			that loses. That's a losing strategy. I don't
		
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55
			think that's a way forward. Other people have
		
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57
			said, said, well, let's go to Islamophobia. That's
		
00:30:57 --> 00:30:58
			what they did in Canada. They're trying to
		
00:30:58 --> 00:31:01
			report these incidents that are happening as Islamophobic
		
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03
			incidents. I'm also not satisfied with that. I
		
00:31:03 --> 00:31:06
			think that has other problems. It's basically
		
00:31:06 --> 00:31:07
			further
		
00:31:07 --> 00:31:08
			fortifying
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11
			the homophobia discourse, you know, by saying that
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:11
			somebody
		
00:31:12 --> 00:31:15
			disagrees with, you know, Islam that they're homophobic
		
00:31:15 --> 00:31:17
			or something like that is like something someone
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:18
			disagrees with, you know,
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:22
			the * that they're that they're homophobic. I
		
00:31:22 --> 00:31:24
			don't I also don't like, you know,
		
00:31:25 --> 00:31:26
			reentrenching that discourse.
		
00:31:27 --> 00:31:28
			One of the things that I'm interested in
		
00:31:28 --> 00:31:31
			exploring the possibility of and I don't know,
		
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33
			you know, I haven't fully thought through how
		
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36
			effective it would be, but native Americans have
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38
			rallied around this idea of epistemic sovereignty
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:40
			and sacred teachings.
		
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42
			And I think that that might have a
		
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44
			lot of potential for us because it
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47
			doesn't it shifts the terrain from an identity
		
00:31:47 --> 00:31:47
			game
		
00:31:48 --> 00:31:50
			into, about, like, who I am, which the
		
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52
			response for non Muslims is, well, there's this
		
00:31:52 --> 00:31:54
			other Muslim that's fine with it or there's
		
00:31:54 --> 00:31:56
			this other Muslim who's gay. Right? That's the
		
00:31:56 --> 00:31:57
			the next move for them
		
00:31:58 --> 00:31:58
			to
		
00:31:59 --> 00:32:02
			reinserting the the teachings in there and anchoring
		
00:32:02 --> 00:32:03
			us in the in in the teachings. And
		
00:32:03 --> 00:32:05
			that way if we're able to sort of
		
00:32:05 --> 00:32:07
			bridge that gap and say there is no
		
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09
			separating us from our teachings. And if you
		
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11
			try to separate us from our teachings, you're
		
00:32:11 --> 00:32:13
			actually doing some sort of violence upon us.
		
00:32:13 --> 00:32:15
			You're harming us. You know? You're whatever. You're
		
00:32:15 --> 00:32:15
			bigoted.
		
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18
			That to me, that's the most promising sort
		
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20
			of discourse that I've seen so far when
		
00:32:20 --> 00:32:21
			it comes to,
		
00:32:22 --> 00:32:24
			you know, managing all the different sort of
		
00:32:24 --> 00:32:26
			avenues by which we're getting slaughtered by this
		
00:32:26 --> 00:32:26
			thing.
		
00:32:27 --> 00:32:27
			Yeah.
		
00:32:29 --> 00:32:31
			So I mean, did you manage to insert
		
00:32:31 --> 00:32:34
			some of these things into the the the
		
00:32:34 --> 00:32:34
			statement?
		
00:32:34 --> 00:32:37
			No. I was not involved in the crafting
		
00:32:37 --> 00:32:38
			of the wording of the statement myself. So
		
00:32:38 --> 00:32:40
			I was only a signatory.
		
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43
			But when it comes to one thing that
		
00:32:43 --> 00:32:44
			I'm a little bit more involved in is
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45
			the is
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48
			the the stuff going on in Montgomery County,
		
00:32:48 --> 00:32:49
			Maryland. So we're
		
00:32:51 --> 00:32:53
			there's, like, a WhatsApp group with 400 messages
		
00:32:53 --> 00:32:56
			a day where we're constantly sort of brainstorming
		
00:32:56 --> 00:32:57
			about
		
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00
			how this is gonna happen, what discourse we're
		
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02
			gonna use, what media outlets, you know,
		
00:33:02 --> 00:33:03
			you know,
		
00:33:04 --> 00:33:05
			who to work with and who not to
		
00:33:05 --> 00:33:07
			work with. Like, what are the the parameters
		
00:33:07 --> 00:33:08
			of a coalition?
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10
			There's other people that are trying to
		
00:33:11 --> 00:33:11
			undermine and sabotage
		
00:33:12 --> 00:33:14
			us. Right? This is the coalition of virtue,
		
00:33:14 --> 00:33:16
			by the way. So I'm a little bit
		
00:33:16 --> 00:33:18
			more involved in Yeah. I know. The coalition
		
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20
			of virtue is is basically the group on
		
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23
			the ground in Montgomery County, Maryland that is
		
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26
			pushing back against the imposition of the school
		
00:33:26 --> 00:33:27
			board with their LGBTQ,
		
00:33:28 --> 00:33:28
			curriculum.
		
00:33:29 --> 00:33:31
			It the premise of it is that it
		
00:33:31 --> 00:33:35
			is a faith based coalition of values.
		
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38
			Right? So they're trying to be broad enough
		
00:33:38 --> 00:33:38
			to incorporate
		
00:33:39 --> 00:33:41
			believing Christians and and Jews and other people
		
00:33:41 --> 00:33:42
			who,
		
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44
			are not pleased with this. Now,
		
00:33:45 --> 00:33:47
			there's been sort of an incrementalist approach so
		
00:33:47 --> 00:33:49
			far. Like, the first step has kind of
		
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52
			been to say, well, you took away parental
		
00:33:52 --> 00:33:54
			choice to opt out. Now
		
00:33:54 --> 00:33:57
			technically speaking that's not meaningful because they've put
		
00:33:57 --> 00:33:59
			it in every subject so there's nothing to
		
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01
			opt out of. But
		
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04
			to take away parental choice and opt out
		
00:34:04 --> 00:34:06
			is also bad. So the the the strategy
		
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09
			now for for, you know, that most people
		
00:34:09 --> 00:34:11
			have agreed to is to try to reinstate
		
00:34:11 --> 00:34:13
			the ability to opt out and then work
		
00:34:14 --> 00:34:17
			on corralling all LGBTQ education into one subject.
		
00:34:18 --> 00:34:19
			Therefore, opt out is meaningful.
		
00:34:19 --> 00:34:21
			Right? And the the fear is that if
		
00:34:21 --> 00:34:23
			you switch that process and do it in
		
00:34:23 --> 00:34:25
			the reverse, then that won't work and they
		
00:34:25 --> 00:34:27
			won't accept it. So, you know, all I
		
00:34:27 --> 00:34:28
			know is best.
		
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31
			I'm more there there are lawyers involved and
		
00:34:31 --> 00:34:32
			they they sued the school board and and
		
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34
			stuff like that. I'm not a lawyer. I
		
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36
			don't know the legality of it. I'm more
		
00:34:36 --> 00:34:37
			interested in the discourse and the ideology.
		
00:34:38 --> 00:34:39
			You know,
		
00:34:40 --> 00:34:42
			do anything else could be in contempt of
		
00:34:42 --> 00:34:44
			court by talking about Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Revealing
		
00:34:44 --> 00:34:45
			any the best.
		
00:34:47 --> 00:34:50
			You know, secret game plan. Yeah. Yeah. Screw
		
00:34:50 --> 00:34:51
			up while we're watching. Yeah. But,
		
00:34:52 --> 00:34:54
			yeah, I it's it's it's always very interesting
		
00:34:55 --> 00:34:55
			looking at,
		
00:34:57 --> 00:34:57
			how different
		
00:34:58 --> 00:34:58
			Muslim
		
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00
			groups and organizations
		
00:35:01 --> 00:35:03
			kind of, try to formulate a a a
		
00:35:03 --> 00:35:04
			response from their own
		
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08
			from their own paradigm, really. This video is
		
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10
			something similar. You you remember the maybe Iranian
		
00:35:10 --> 00:35:12
			news burning on kind of
		
00:35:12 --> 00:35:14
			a protest? Yeah. Very much so. That was,
		
00:35:14 --> 00:35:16
			you know, in the news around as well.
		
00:35:16 --> 00:35:17
			But the way it was framed was, you
		
00:35:17 --> 00:35:18
			know,
		
00:35:18 --> 00:35:20
			they hear some beta parents
		
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25
			protesting against something as neutral as education. Right.
		
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28
			Learning to simple facts. The idea was that
		
00:35:28 --> 00:35:29
			we were trying to push those. These aren't
		
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33
			just neutral facts. What you're teaching, what you're
		
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35
			imposing is, what they're against is proselytizing
		
00:35:36 --> 00:35:36
			Yes.
		
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38
			You know, certain beliefs
		
00:35:38 --> 00:35:41
			and and and and values and cultural norms
		
00:35:41 --> 00:35:44
			of 1 people over another people. I'm not
		
00:35:44 --> 00:35:46
			a bit of children, no less. Yeah.
		
00:35:46 --> 00:35:48
			So and then, you know, that so so
		
00:35:48 --> 00:35:50
			this is the I think this is, you
		
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52
			know, something we need to explore, you know,
		
00:35:52 --> 00:35:54
			more and and and and popularize because half
		
00:35:54 --> 00:35:57
			of the the majority of the the battle
		
00:35:57 --> 00:35:58
			is to get
		
00:35:58 --> 00:35:59
			the
		
00:35:59 --> 00:36:02
			the, you know, white western male or whatever
		
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04
			that you you mentioned. Get him to realize
		
00:36:04 --> 00:36:05
			his own,
		
00:36:06 --> 00:36:09
			you know, assumptions. Yeah. That they're not universal
		
00:36:09 --> 00:36:11
			true truths about life. Mhmm. They are something
		
00:36:11 --> 00:36:14
			that he completely accidentally inherited. Mhmm. Because he
		
00:36:14 --> 00:36:16
			was born and took good places. Something he's
		
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18
			he inherited from his forefathers.
		
00:36:18 --> 00:36:20
			Right? And it's not something that he imposed,
		
00:36:21 --> 00:36:22
			on us.
		
00:36:22 --> 00:36:23
			So speaking of I mean, I don't I
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:26
			don't know. I know you've kind of time's
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:27
			running away with us. I just wanted to
		
00:36:27 --> 00:36:30
			get your views about, you know, something similar
		
00:36:30 --> 00:36:30
			to
		
00:36:32 --> 00:36:34
			what you've been talking about here, but I
		
00:36:34 --> 00:36:35
			mean, before in regards to in regards to
		
00:36:35 --> 00:36:38
			feminism and and your Sure. You know, exposure
		
00:36:38 --> 00:36:39
			to
		
00:36:39 --> 00:36:40
			feminist discourse.
		
00:36:40 --> 00:36:42
			So there's a huge people don't understand that
		
00:36:42 --> 00:36:44
			there's a huge difference between feminism in the
		
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47
			academy and feminism on the ground. And if
		
00:36:47 --> 00:36:50
			people understood feminism in the academy, they'd realize
		
00:36:50 --> 00:36:51
			how dangerous it is.
		
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54
			But the problem is that discursively, what feminism
		
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56
			has done is very clever just like other
		
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58
			movements have been very clever is that they've
		
00:36:58 --> 00:37:01
			managed to claim responsibility for every good thing
		
00:37:01 --> 00:37:02
			done for women anywhere.
		
00:37:03 --> 00:37:05
			So it's actually very difficult to detect what's
		
00:37:05 --> 00:37:06
			wrong with feminism if you're looking at the
		
00:37:06 --> 00:37:08
			goods that it promises to obtain.
		
00:37:09 --> 00:37:11
			Right? It even, like, goes so, like, you
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:12
			know,
		
00:37:12 --> 00:37:14
			morally amorphous to say, it's like, well, we
		
00:37:14 --> 00:37:17
			can be international feminists and intersectional feminists and,
		
00:37:17 --> 00:37:21
			like, you know, support women's upliftment, whatever that
		
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23
			might mean in the Muslim world versus the
		
00:37:23 --> 00:37:25
			Western world versus whatever. So if you're looking
		
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27
			at it from that angle, it's tricky and
		
00:37:27 --> 00:37:28
			at first it doesn't look
		
00:37:29 --> 00:37:30
			problematic, but we'll get back to that. But
		
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33
			where it is much more obviously problematic is
		
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35
			if you look at what is feminism trying
		
00:37:35 --> 00:37:38
			respond to? What is the other of feminism
		
00:37:38 --> 00:37:39
			which is patriarchy?
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:42
			Okay. So patriarchy is understood as, and this
		
00:37:42 --> 00:37:44
			is like on the books and it's in
		
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46
			the popular culture, as something that is a
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49
			universal and trans historical category. Right? So, by
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52
			universal we mean across all places and by
		
00:37:52 --> 00:37:54
			trans historical mean all times. Right? So that
		
00:37:54 --> 00:37:55
			women's oppression
		
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58
			is structural. Meaning, it's not just like they
		
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00
			say that racism is systemic as opposed to
		
00:38:00 --> 00:38:00
			an individual,
		
00:38:01 --> 00:38:01
			prejudice.
		
00:38:02 --> 00:38:03
			They're saying that
		
00:38:03 --> 00:38:07
			patriarchy is the structural oppression of women by
		
00:38:07 --> 00:38:07
			men
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09
			all throughout history,
		
00:38:09 --> 00:38:11
			all across places,
		
00:38:11 --> 00:38:14
			everywhere. So women being oppressed is because of
		
00:38:14 --> 00:38:16
			the patriarchy. It's not because of the individual
		
00:38:16 --> 00:38:19
			moral, you know, status of, of individuals.
		
00:38:21 --> 00:38:22
			Because of, you know, the system
		
00:38:22 --> 00:38:24
			happening to somebody No. No. No. It's it's
		
00:38:24 --> 00:38:27
			structurally about men being in power and making
		
00:38:27 --> 00:38:29
			decisions about women. Like that is the patriarchy
		
00:38:29 --> 00:38:30
			and that is what is responsible
		
00:38:31 --> 00:38:32
			for women's oppression.
		
00:38:33 --> 00:38:34
			So that is
		
00:38:34 --> 00:38:37
			obviously and flagrantly un Islamic, right? If you
		
00:38:37 --> 00:38:39
			look at the the society that the prophet
		
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42
			Muhammad was sent to, right? And obviously he
		
00:38:42 --> 00:38:43
			was sent to everybody but he was initially
		
00:38:43 --> 00:38:46
			sent to, you know, his immediate community. There
		
00:38:46 --> 00:38:49
			was oppression against women, widespread oppression against women.
		
00:38:49 --> 00:38:49
			We all know.
		
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53
			What was the source and cause of that
		
00:38:53 --> 00:38:54
			oppression for women?
		
00:38:54 --> 00:38:56
			Was it patriarchy?
		
00:38:57 --> 00:38:58
			If it was patriarchy,
		
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00
			why wasn't patriarchy corrected?
		
00:39:00 --> 00:39:01
			Why didn't
		
00:39:02 --> 00:39:03
			Allah send down the prophet
		
00:39:03 --> 00:39:06
			with something to fight the patriarchy? Kind of
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:08
			an anachronism, isn't it? It's extremely anachronism, which
		
00:39:08 --> 00:39:09
			is why we have to particular type You're
		
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11
			holding you're holding
		
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14
			a history the history of every every people's
		
00:39:14 --> 00:39:15
			ransom to
		
00:39:15 --> 00:39:17
			the, you know, the analysis of what the
		
00:39:17 --> 00:39:18
			ideas
		
00:39:20 --> 00:39:21
			are. So
		
00:39:23 --> 00:39:23
			the,
		
00:39:24 --> 00:39:27
			ideas of, you know, why he can discover.
		
00:39:27 --> 00:39:30
			Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. Which which they'll no.
		
00:39:30 --> 00:39:32
			No. They'll pretend that it's not that, and
		
00:39:32 --> 00:39:34
			that's where you get intersectional feminism and third
		
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36
			world feminism and whatever. But that's what it
		
00:39:36 --> 00:39:36
			is at the end of the day. Right?
		
00:39:36 --> 00:39:37
			No matter whatever window dressing they put on
		
00:39:37 --> 00:39:37
			it. But that's not the least of its
		
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39
			problems. Right? The big thing is, what is
		
00:39:39 --> 00:39:40
			responsible
		
00:39:44 --> 00:39:45
			responsible for the oppression of women? That's what
		
00:39:45 --> 00:39:48
			you have to answer. And is it structural?
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:50
			Is it always structural?
		
00:39:50 --> 00:39:53
			Is there no moral element to it? Because
		
00:39:53 --> 00:39:55
			the stakes are huge. Is there an either
		
00:39:55 --> 00:39:56
			one?
		
00:39:56 --> 00:39:58
			Say again? Structural or moral?
		
00:39:59 --> 00:39:59
			Is what? Sorry.
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:02
			Can can it be structural and moral? Yes.
		
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04
			Well, that's the point. So I the idea
		
00:40:04 --> 00:40:06
			of the patriarchy is that it's primarily,
		
00:40:06 --> 00:40:08
			if not entirely structural,
		
00:40:08 --> 00:40:11
			which means that a man can not cannot
		
00:40:11 --> 00:40:12
			be just,
		
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14
			cannot represent women
		
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16
			if he is in power. He needs to
		
00:40:16 --> 00:40:17
			let go of his power in order for
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20
			women to have power then justice will be
		
00:40:20 --> 00:40:21
			done. That's the claim of feminism.
		
00:40:22 --> 00:40:23
			And so if you look at the oppression
		
00:40:23 --> 00:40:25
			that women suffered in Arabia in the 7th
		
00:40:25 --> 00:40:28
			century, right, women came to the prophet
		
00:40:28 --> 00:40:30
			to complain about oppression that was happening even
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:32
			after Islam started to be spread. Right? What
		
00:40:32 --> 00:40:35
			did the prophet do? It's not a feminist
		
00:40:35 --> 00:40:37
			point. People, you know, don't understand these things
		
00:40:37 --> 00:40:39
			they mean. They'll say, oh, well, they were
		
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41
			able to complain directly to the prophet and
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43
			this is feminism. This is not feminism. Feminisms
		
00:40:44 --> 00:40:46
			would say that the prophet had to vacate
		
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48
			power and let a woman take over Or
		
00:40:48 --> 00:40:49
			at the very least, feminism would say that
		
00:40:49 --> 00:40:51
			the prophet would have to appoint women to
		
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53
			positions of power so that they will be
		
00:40:53 --> 00:40:54
			represented
		
00:40:54 --> 00:40:56
			so that then they could have justice done
		
00:40:56 --> 00:40:56
			by them.
		
00:40:57 --> 00:41:00
			Feminism precludes the possibility that men can justly
		
00:41:00 --> 00:41:02
			represent and rule over women. Is that all
		
00:41:02 --> 00:41:04
			feminism? Yes.
		
00:41:04 --> 00:41:06
			It is. There's other differences if you get
		
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08
			into * positive versus, you know, like like
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:10
			like, you know, the folks who are against
		
00:41:10 --> 00:41:12
			* positivism or even abortion or other stuff.
		
00:41:12 --> 00:41:16
			There's various different strains and controversies within feminism.
		
00:41:16 --> 00:41:18
			But this is a a a lowest common
		
00:41:18 --> 00:41:20
			denominator of feminism, the patriarchy, and the conception
		
00:41:20 --> 00:41:23
			of the patriarchy. Right? The patriarchy is a,
		
00:41:23 --> 00:41:23
			again, a universal
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:25
			transist transhistorical
		
00:41:26 --> 00:41:28
			and even, like, ubiquitous, we could even say.
		
00:41:28 --> 00:41:29
			Can someone be a feminist
		
00:41:30 --> 00:41:30
			and
		
00:41:31 --> 00:41:31
			still,
		
00:41:32 --> 00:41:35
			and think of the patriarchy as not necessarily
		
00:41:35 --> 00:41:35
			that
		
00:41:36 --> 00:41:38
			No. I don't think so. I don't think
		
00:41:38 --> 00:41:40
			so. I think that is the that's why
		
00:41:40 --> 00:41:42
			I I wanna draw the attention away from
		
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44
			the goods that feminism supposedly promises because that's
		
00:41:44 --> 00:41:45
			murkier terrain,
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:48
			and focus on what feminism claims to be
		
00:41:48 --> 00:41:49
			correcting, which is the patriarchy.
		
00:41:50 --> 00:41:52
			The idea of the patriarchy is un Islamic.
		
00:41:52 --> 00:41:53
			Right?
		
00:41:53 --> 00:41:56
			Men can rule over women justly. It is
		
00:41:56 --> 00:41:58
			a function of morality. It is a function
		
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01
			of the tazkiyatan nef's of purifying the soul,
		
00:42:01 --> 00:42:03
			of relating to your lord and of being
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:05
			just. Right? Which is why, you know, the
		
00:42:06 --> 00:42:08
			traditionally men have been rulers, men have been
		
00:42:08 --> 00:42:10
			rulers of the or leaders of the household.
		
00:42:10 --> 00:42:12
			They've been leader political leaders. They've been, you
		
00:42:12 --> 00:42:14
			know, societal leaders. That is all based on
		
00:42:14 --> 00:42:16
			the premise that men can
		
00:42:17 --> 00:42:20
			rule just the emotion the notion of leaders.
		
00:42:21 --> 00:42:22
			What a leader means is a heavily
		
00:42:23 --> 00:42:26
			heavily drawn from the Western activist team because
		
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28
			I I you know?
		
00:42:28 --> 00:42:30
			Well, we're we're discussing this the other day
		
00:42:30 --> 00:42:32
			with Sheikhaith and as well, and I'm like,
		
00:42:33 --> 00:42:35
			somehow we're doing to to just about some
		
00:42:35 --> 00:42:37
			kind of skills for leadership. Now he said,
		
00:42:37 --> 00:42:39
			be careful of the word leadership because
		
00:42:40 --> 00:42:41
			it's from a very distinct
		
00:42:42 --> 00:42:43
			it happens to be a corporate kind of
		
00:42:43 --> 00:42:45
			a business That's true. And
		
00:42:46 --> 00:42:48
			based background in terms of
		
00:42:49 --> 00:42:50
			you know? And and he was thinking, we
		
00:42:50 --> 00:42:53
			need to think of a way in which,
		
00:42:54 --> 00:42:57
			we can express this, still learn some lessons
		
00:42:57 --> 00:42:58
			about these qualities,
		
00:42:59 --> 00:43:00
			but not fall into this
		
00:43:00 --> 00:43:01
			this mold,
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:02
			right,
		
00:43:03 --> 00:43:05
			of a leader is excellent because, yeah,
		
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08
			this type of leader or or, you know,
		
00:43:08 --> 00:43:09
			like a ruler, for example, of a tribe
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:11
			or a country or whatever.
		
00:43:11 --> 00:43:12
			Yeah.
		
00:43:13 --> 00:43:15
			A woman shouldn't, you know, aspire to be
		
00:43:15 --> 00:43:17
			that Yes. From the Islamic pattern.
		
00:43:17 --> 00:43:19
			But does that mean she's not supposed to
		
00:43:19 --> 00:43:23
			be have some kind of leadership policy leading
		
00:43:23 --> 00:43:24
			Of course. Individual. Right?
		
00:43:24 --> 00:43:26
			Is that the problem? So you're thinking Of
		
00:43:26 --> 00:43:28
			course. So you're thinking it's not about lead
		
00:43:28 --> 00:43:30
			it's not about the position. Yes. It should
		
00:43:30 --> 00:43:30
			be about
		
00:43:31 --> 00:43:33
			other values like taking responsibility
		
00:43:34 --> 00:43:36
			Yeah. Being accountable Yes. You know, and getting
		
00:43:36 --> 00:43:37
			things done
		
00:43:38 --> 00:43:41
			and stewardship. Mhmm. Right? So even that is
		
00:43:41 --> 00:43:43
			just kinda popping to my head there.
		
00:43:45 --> 00:43:46
			Yeah.
		
00:43:47 --> 00:43:47
			Everything
		
00:43:47 --> 00:43:49
			is just probably this language and where we're
		
00:43:49 --> 00:43:51
			living. Yeah. No. The terms the terms set
		
00:43:51 --> 00:43:53
			set us up. Yeah. Kind of,
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:56
			swimming against the tide. I know. Yeah. Definitely.
		
00:43:56 --> 00:43:57
			No. I mean, that's a good point. That's
		
00:43:57 --> 00:43:58
			a good point.
		
00:43:58 --> 00:44:00
			But the idea still stands about, you know,
		
00:44:00 --> 00:44:03
			about patriarchy is the problem. Now there's there's
		
00:44:03 --> 00:44:05
			there are other there are issues with what
		
00:44:05 --> 00:44:06
			feminism claims to be good as well, but
		
00:44:06 --> 00:44:08
			they're not as readily apparent.
		
00:44:09 --> 00:44:11
			Because when it comes to the, you know,
		
00:44:11 --> 00:44:14
			basically feminism ran into the problem very quickly
		
00:44:14 --> 00:44:15
			that it can't possibly
		
00:44:15 --> 00:44:17
			it doesn't have a coherent sense of what
		
00:44:17 --> 00:44:18
			is good.
		
00:44:18 --> 00:44:18
			Right?
		
00:44:19 --> 00:44:20
			Because it you can't
		
00:44:21 --> 00:44:23
			find a universal good outside of religion. Right?
		
00:44:23 --> 00:44:25
			So outside of faith. It's not
		
00:44:25 --> 00:44:26
			anchored or tethered. It's not anchored or tethered.
		
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28
			And so that's why, you know, is is
		
00:44:28 --> 00:44:30
			it the feminist position to take the veil
		
00:44:30 --> 00:44:32
			off in Iran and put it on in
		
00:44:32 --> 00:44:33
			France?
		
00:44:33 --> 00:44:35
			Right? That's sort of the, you know, the
		
00:44:35 --> 00:44:37
			consequence of this, you know, not having a
		
00:44:37 --> 00:44:39
			coherent constructive idea of what is good. Right?
		
00:44:39 --> 00:44:41
			What is the good that that that feminism
		
00:44:41 --> 00:44:44
			is supposedly achieving for women? Right? Women differ
		
00:44:44 --> 00:44:46
			themselves. They disagree. Like, there are women who
		
00:44:46 --> 00:44:47
			are pro abortion, women that are against abortion
		
00:44:47 --> 00:44:49
			in the United States, and there are women
		
00:44:49 --> 00:44:51
			that are They just say choice then. There
		
00:44:51 --> 00:44:53
			we go. Well, that's that's how they solve
		
00:44:53 --> 00:44:54
			that tension. They solve that tension from going
		
00:44:54 --> 00:44:56
			away from a substantive good and going to
		
00:44:56 --> 00:44:58
			a procedural good. So saying, okay. We can't
		
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01
			stay coherent and say that this is what's
		
00:45:01 --> 00:45:02
			good and this is what's right,
		
00:45:02 --> 00:45:04
			you know, when it comes to the results
		
00:45:04 --> 00:45:06
			and the the concrete substance. So let's go
		
00:45:06 --> 00:45:08
			to procedure. As long as women choose it,
		
00:45:08 --> 00:45:11
			then it's good. Well, that's also problematic. Like,
		
00:45:11 --> 00:45:13
			because, again, we get back to what is
		
00:45:13 --> 00:45:15
			choice and Foucault would be laughing here because
		
00:45:15 --> 00:45:17
			he was saying it's like, well, how do
		
00:45:17 --> 00:45:18
			you account for,
		
00:45:18 --> 00:45:19
			internalized patriarchy
		
00:45:20 --> 00:45:21
			according to them? Right? We don't agree with
		
00:45:21 --> 00:45:23
			the idea of patriarchy as they understand it,
		
00:45:23 --> 00:45:26
			but Foucault would say internalize patriarchy. You have
		
00:45:26 --> 00:45:28
			women choosing it. Women choose to stay in
		
00:45:28 --> 00:45:29
			abusive relationships.
		
00:45:29 --> 00:45:31
			Women choose to do horrible things. There's no
		
00:45:32 --> 00:45:35
			way to actually morally critique or evaluate these
		
00:45:35 --> 00:45:37
			decisions. If you make it if you accept
		
00:45:37 --> 00:45:39
			that, then you you you have to deal
		
00:45:39 --> 00:45:40
			with the problem of infantilizing,
		
00:45:41 --> 00:45:43
			you know, someone else Exactly. Say that, you
		
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45
			know, I know what's better for you than
		
00:45:45 --> 00:45:47
			you. Exactly. Agency versus infantilizing versus all these
		
00:45:47 --> 00:45:49
			sorts of things. It gets muddy. It's gets
		
00:45:49 --> 00:45:51
			it it gets, you know, it it's very
		
00:45:51 --> 00:45:52
			thin and it's very,
		
00:45:53 --> 00:45:53
			incoherent.
		
00:45:53 --> 00:45:56
			Okay. So it's not that, you know, feminism,
		
00:45:57 --> 00:45:59
			so feminism is is un Islamic on both
		
00:45:59 --> 00:46:01
			ends. Whether the the bad that it's supposed
		
00:46:01 --> 00:46:03
			to be fighting against, which is the patriarchy,
		
00:46:03 --> 00:46:04
			which is an un Islamic concept,
		
00:46:05 --> 00:46:06
			and also the good that it purports to
		
00:46:06 --> 00:46:08
			be able to do. But again, what makes
		
00:46:08 --> 00:46:10
			it slippery and appealing is that it claims
		
00:46:10 --> 00:46:10
			responsibility
		
00:46:11 --> 00:46:14
			for every good ever done for women. Right?
		
00:46:14 --> 00:46:15
			And so you and this is where you're
		
00:46:15 --> 00:46:17
			saying historical anachronism.
		
00:46:17 --> 00:46:19
			They'll look into the past and say, Khadijah
		
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21
			was a feminist and Aisha was a feminist.
		
00:46:21 --> 00:46:23
			And, you know, everybody who you know, there
		
00:46:23 --> 00:46:25
			were women who were anti suffragists.
		
00:46:25 --> 00:46:27
			You know, that's a fascinating thing to look
		
00:46:27 --> 00:46:29
			into. There were women that were against women
		
00:46:29 --> 00:46:32
			getting the the ability to vote. Won't call
		
00:46:32 --> 00:46:34
			it the freedom because that's again language.
		
00:46:34 --> 00:46:35
			Right?
		
00:46:35 --> 00:46:37
			And it's really interesting to look into the
		
00:46:37 --> 00:46:39
			reasoning why. Like that stuff is dead and,
		
00:46:39 --> 00:46:40
			you know, buried but,
		
00:46:41 --> 00:46:43
			they're basically like, we want to protect the
		
00:46:43 --> 00:46:44
			the household sphere. We don't want it to
		
00:46:44 --> 00:46:47
			become a political sphere. We want our sort
		
00:46:47 --> 00:46:49
			of separation to to be maintained. They almost
		
00:46:49 --> 00:46:52
			view the separation as a protection in some
		
00:46:52 --> 00:46:54
			sort of way, which has merit to it.
		
00:46:54 --> 00:46:57
			The whole notion of, you know, seeing empowerment
		
00:46:57 --> 00:47:00
			as effectively imitating a man and and everything.
		
00:47:00 --> 00:47:02
			Well, that's another problem. Expecting the man maybe
		
00:47:02 --> 00:47:03
			to
		
00:47:04 --> 00:47:05
			Yes. No. That's another problem is that, you
		
00:47:05 --> 00:47:08
			know, basically, if there is any substantive good
		
00:47:08 --> 00:47:11
			that feminism has called for, it's basically defined
		
00:47:11 --> 00:47:11
			success
		
00:47:12 --> 00:47:13
			as what
		
00:47:13 --> 00:47:15
			success is purported to be for men. But
		
00:47:16 --> 00:47:18
			surely, if it's something so murky and watered
		
00:47:18 --> 00:47:20
			down and so, you know, ain't no fuss,
		
00:47:21 --> 00:47:23
			could there be a strategy of just saying,
		
00:47:23 --> 00:47:25
			okay, take it to its conclusion.
		
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29
			Therefore, feminism is so un undefined and and
		
00:47:29 --> 00:47:31
			and and, I mean, this is a term.
		
00:47:31 --> 00:47:34
			So it it ceases to have any any
		
00:47:34 --> 00:47:36
			value for anyone. Sure. And there are those
		
00:47:36 --> 00:47:38
			who have done that. Like, people who debate,
		
00:47:38 --> 00:47:39
			like, you know, the feminists and stuff like
		
00:47:39 --> 00:47:42
			that. They they often use that as, as
		
00:47:42 --> 00:47:43
			a critique. And there's a valid
		
00:47:44 --> 00:47:47
			critique. Why feminism? We can get women's rights.
		
00:47:47 --> 00:47:48
			We can, you know, that's why I think,
		
00:47:48 --> 00:47:50
			you know, there's a book out there, women's
		
00:47:50 --> 00:47:52
			rights without feminism or something like that. Like,
		
00:47:52 --> 00:47:53
			feminism becomes useless. If you're telling me that
		
00:47:53 --> 00:47:55
			I can't really I don't really have any
		
00:47:55 --> 00:47:56
			idea of what good is,
		
00:47:57 --> 00:47:59
			right, then why do I need it? Oh,
		
00:47:59 --> 00:48:00
			why can't I get it with this? If
		
00:48:00 --> 00:48:02
			you define it as something so
		
00:48:03 --> 00:48:05
			that can be defined from some different angle
		
00:48:05 --> 00:48:07
			Yes. I mean, you could you could perceive
		
00:48:07 --> 00:48:08
			with someone being
		
00:48:08 --> 00:48:11
			absolutely horrible to women and saying I'm fem
		
00:48:11 --> 00:48:13
			Yeah. No. I mean, it would be justifiable,
		
00:48:13 --> 00:48:13
			honestly.
		
00:48:14 --> 00:48:15
			You know? So anyway
		
00:48:16 --> 00:48:17
			And And if we identify as women, then
		
00:48:17 --> 00:48:18
			that's a whole
		
00:48:19 --> 00:48:20
			That's
		
00:48:20 --> 00:48:23
			a topic for another conversation. But, yeah, I
		
00:48:23 --> 00:48:25
			look forward to reading some of your articles.
		
00:48:26 --> 00:48:28
			You promise to, you know, send send me
		
00:48:28 --> 00:48:30
			some stuff and stuff. Definitely. Yeah. And we
		
00:48:30 --> 00:48:32
			have something for Yakin Institute coming out within
		
00:48:32 --> 00:48:35
			the next month on perennialism, which is gonna
		
00:48:35 --> 00:48:36
			be the first the first article for them.
		
00:48:37 --> 00:48:40
			Gonna be doing the, the academic style papers
		
00:48:40 --> 00:48:42
			on the. Yes. And send, some of the
		
00:48:42 --> 00:48:43
			light stuff for
		
00:48:44 --> 00:48:44
			you to
		
00:48:45 --> 00:48:47
			make, you know, direct people towards,
		
00:48:48 --> 00:48:49
			for, you know, for the for the,
		
00:48:51 --> 00:48:53
			academic stuff inshallah. Yes, madam. There's a lot
		
00:48:53 --> 00:48:54
			of work to do. Don't forget. So I'm
		
00:48:54 --> 00:48:56
			trying to see Of course not. Have you.
		
00:48:56 --> 00:48:58
			We'll we'll be seeing you see more of
		
00:48:58 --> 00:49:00
			you inshallah. Inshallah. I hope so. I wanna
		
00:49:00 --> 00:49:02
			I'll let you k. Actually, I gotta catch
		
00:49:02 --> 00:49:04
			my flight. Catch catch your man flight from
		
00:49:04 --> 00:49:05
			you inshallah.
		
00:49:06 --> 00:49:06
			So yeah.
		
00:49:08 --> 00:49:11
			Are you are you? Bikini. Bikini. Yep.
		
00:49:12 --> 00:49:14
			All the Italians in the UK. Assalamu alaikum.
		
00:49:14 --> 00:49:16
			I know you're out there. Italian converts.
		
00:49:16 --> 00:49:16
			Yeah.
		
00:49:17 --> 00:49:18
			Forget about it.