Tom Facchine – The Real Reason Trump Won – And They WonT Admit It
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The speakers emphasize the need for political reform and finding a partner in political advocacy, as well as collaboration between the Muslim community and the leftist movement to protect against double standards and avoiding double-standing in politics. They stress the importance of flexibility and loyalty to political parties, establishing a long term presence in political life, and organizing campaigns to make sure the agenda is on the right. The potential threat of Trump's campaign and the political and security risks involved are also discussed, along with the importance of studying security risks, including the potential for chaos and foreign influence. The conversation ends with a brief advertisement for a podcast.
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Let me take this opportunity to congratulate you
for punishing genocide Alhamdulillah, as I said, it's
a it's a bittersweet victory.
Obviously, we're just beginning but the very very
first step as we understood it was to
attach a political cost to Zionism and the
genocide and Alhamdulillah, we we played a significant
part in that and for we're grateful for
the opportunity to do that And now we're
looking forward to what comes next Mmm, how
was the mood at Jumu'ah today?
It was good most of the khutbahs that
well the khutbahs I listened to and the
other people that I am aware of that
were swapping notes about khutbahs many of the
Messages were attempting to be about reconciliation unification
these sorts of things you would sort of
expect But the mood is fine.
Yeah, I didn't see anybody really either freaking
out some of the grocery stores with more
Republican I think the the mood at hope
that Whole Foods is different than the mood
at Walmart People at Whole Foods are probably
panicking and the people at Walmart are high
-fiving each other So we live in a
divided land So tell me about the the
Muslim Contribution to this because I've heard kind
of different things I've been I've been listening
to what you've been saying and the different
brothers from across the pond What what do
you think in your opinion I want I
want to get get your views on okay,
what's next but before we go on To
that what's what's the Muslim contribution been do
you think very good?
I mean it it is incontrovertible fact that
Palestine and Gaza were among the most important
factors in this election and in order to
Figure that out.
You don't look at what people say You
look at where they spend their money Because
Politicians are liars almost categorically almost to a
man So they will say things in order
to make you fit think that that's how
they really feel But they say things that
are very, you know misdirection right now that
everybody's wrestling over the narrative Democrats are saying
No, we lost because it was the economy
or no is immigration or no it was
this everybody's fighting over the narrative But if
you look at where they spent their money
It's no accident that both Trump and Harris
spent at over a week in Michigan around
Detroit and then their very last destination was
the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania swing districts swing
states with swing states with large Muslim populations
and Their mailers the mailers that they were
sending out were explicitly About this messaging one
way or the other the Trump campaign Crunched
the numbers we found out the New York
Times ran an article where the Trump campaign
Calculated that the undecided voters the voters that
were still undecided within the last few days
of the election were six times more likely
to decide based off of Wow, and that
was and that was completely borne out by
by reality They poured their last week or
the last ten days Into PR and meetings
with the Muslim community Trump went to a
Yemeni cafe in Dearborn, Michigan He went on
stage and he praised Muslims and he prayed
our he praised him.
He praised Muslims and praised Arabs He said
that they are they're not terrorists.
There are friends.
They want peace all this this sort of
thing It might all be lies who knows
but the thing is that he tried like
he recognized that it's a formidable force Exactly
and it if it were not a formidable
force, they would have put their money and
their time elsewhere the same thing with Harris
Harris was going around now she because she
had Essentially decided to go all-in on
the Zionists and not depart even an inch
Whatsoever, but she was still in Michigan up
until the very end of then in Pennsylvania
They were still trying to do some mixed
messaging If you saw the mini scandal where
the news came out with how different her
messaging was in, Michigan right and even the
how different her messaging was to the Muslim
community versus the the Jewish community she was
sending mess like mailers and and text messages
to the Jewish community saying if you've seen
mixed messaging, don't worry like Harris is a
hundred percent with Israel.
So she trying to have her cake and
eat it too.
This is 2024 You're not gonna be able
to get away with that Whereas she was
bussing people in from out of state brown
people.
That was the criteria They had to be
brown in order to go door-to-door
in Detroit and in Dearborn to listen to
Arab voters and They were told explicitly and
I was shown text messages They were explicitly
told to listen to their pain and sympathize
with them and guide them back to voting
Harris So you don't do that if the
Muslim vote doesn't have power Like that was
there that was their last there if they
had three last moves on the chessboard All
almost all of those moves are exhausted on
the Muslim community So yes They must don't
let anybody tell you anything different now They
want to deny it because they don't want
the Muslims to think that they that they
have that much power going forward They would
much rather Ignore the Muslim vote and ignore
the burgeoning Muslim political power.
So now there's this sort of denial That
had anything to do with the Muslims Or
there's denial about how many Muslims voted Trump
or excuse me How many Muslims didn't vote
for Harris, you know, some people are trying
to peddle the the the numbers that oh
Well most Muslims voted for Harris anyway, so
it wasn't them It was it was this
other group for this other group But you
don't you don't get that type of spending
that type of time that type of resource
allocation if you're not the Major front and
center decider in this election and that's exactly
what happened.
So in other words, it's the genocide stupid
Yeah, exactly.
It's the genocide stupid so One thing I
heard actually, I think you said this about
the abandoned Biden campaign the Madden abandoned Harris
campaign is That there's been an attitudinal shift
in Muslims.
No more.
Mr. Nice guy Oh that really made me
proud of the the Muslim community there.
Masha Allah.
Can you explain to the the views what
you meant?
Absolutely.
Okay, I was gonna grab my charger.
So you carry on sure.
So the abandoned Biden movement started in the
late fall early winter of 2023 and It
was started by people that are very Politically
astute who realized that there's no ability to
negotiate without leverage and So they drew a
line in the sand and they said that
If we don't get a ceasefire by X
date Then we are going to ensure that
Harris loses or at that point it was
Biden We're gonna ensure that the Democrats lose
a presidential election now when this was the
attitude and they came out or We I
mean I was kind of always sort of
on the sidelines, but you know involved a
bit with the movement There was so much
skepticism There was so much naysaying the same
things that you're hearing now about the Muslim
the Muslim vote doesn't matter You guys are
wrong.
You don't know what you're doing.
The math doesn't work out.
You don't have the numbers You don't do
that like all the naysaying of the Muslim
community came out like it was very very
intense It was almost like Noah building the
ark people like walking by Ridiculing, you know,
I'm serious and I'm fully fully like I
know a second if you're not Actual person
that's in the pay of one of these
parties.
I will have be happy to have grace
with you and say, you know Now, I
hope you see what this was about Now
what surprised me?
Was that come?
March I would say come March People that
I never expected to come around to this
sort of logic and fully abandon the Democrats
did in in droves there were people that
we were having discussion with and dozens of
whatsapp chats, you know every day for you
know, since October since November and these were
people that were highly skeptical of abandoning the
Democrats in December By the time we hit
March or April We really saw the mainstream
the bulk of the Muslim grassroots community Lock
in on that message lock in on the
Democrats have to be punished Now what was
what was interesting to me?
Was that this was not the preferred?
Attitude or position of many of the Muslim
elite that there were people that either they
had developed relationships within the Democratic Party or
they had run programs with the Democratic Party
or they were doing political advocacy and most
of their they understood the Democrats to be
a natural ally So you had a really
interesting Confluence of factors where the Muslim community
was on was was doing what they had
to do and Certain both individuals and organizations
were almost like nervously looking around like well,
I guess we can't say anything so it
became It would have and we saw this
actually play out with Mattie Hassan later, right?
So the same thing that played out with
Mattie Hassan where he tries every trick in
the book to try to run interference for
the Democratic Party, he tries to say Trump
in the first hundred days.
He's going to do all this He's going
to all is we're not gonna have a
democracy anymore We're not gonna have it's gonna
be a dictatorship all the like maximalist worst
-case scenario There were people and there are
people and groups that wished that they could
have said what Mattie was saying But they
understood like Mehdi found out that if they
said those things their credibility would be shot
Because the grassroots bulk of the Muslim community
would not have it and that was something
that I did not anticipate I thought that
this was going to be a Vanguard movement
to the end and that it wasn't really
necessarily gonna catch fire Like it did but
we would do the right thing and maybe
we would Get lucky quote-unquote and then
take credit for it and and see what
happened but this was actually again by by
March April definitely May because the and the
Democrats made it easy for us because they
kept on with their insistence and their butchery
and their arrogance and you saw Stephen Miller
and all the the talking heads everybody was
so Evil and they didn't have that one
thing that Obama was able to leverage against
the Muslim community Which was that sort of
credibility and the charm and the articulation they
didn't have that it was just bare-naked
fascism which made it really impossible for The
Democrats to then come to us and say
well if you elect Trump, then you're going
for fascism We're like the Democrats are already
there Every single thing no and this was
the conversation that and I wasn't I was
able to just like sit back and eat
my popcorn and what and watch people who
Who three or four months ago were skeptics
We're now holding these people's feet to the
fire and saying that the Democrats are already
doing it You're saying Trump's gonna do this.
The Democrats are already doing it.
Like what is worse?
What could be worse?
So that was the actual sentiment of the
Muslim community and then you know We tried
to do what we could my me on
my side Jalal worked really hard at Sammy
Hamdi worked really hard a bunch of people
worked really hard in order to try to
Just keep the pressure up that nobody would
buckle at the end because that's what we
were afraid of that that the the Circumstances
would be such that it would become in
doubt and that people would buckle at the
very end What we saw is the exact
opposite at the exact opposite more people came
through than we expected But they came through
in a way that we didn't expect they
actually came through by voting for Trump directly
How do you know who they actually voted
for you don't but it's anecdotal So I
I can't count the number of people that
when the last half of October came around
Messaged me privately and said doesn't it make
more sense to vote Trump?
And I was I would have to give
people advice I said well my position was
and and and was till the end if
you think that this is going to be
extremely close and You are able to stomach
voting for Trump then there's a there's a
mathematical logic to that And that is a
logical action.
If you think that it's gonna be a
blowout like I did I thought it was
gonna be a blowout for Trump the whole
way and You're more concerned about demonstrating with
exact quantifiable measure What is the Muslim political
power?
Like shifting it into like using the Green
Party as a bank To store our votes
to measure to say this is how strong
we are.
I was trying to think long-term but
The Huge number of people literally the day
of told me that they flipped from they
were planning on voting Stein They got nervous
that Harris was gonna win and they ended
up voting for Trump, especially the people in
Michigan and people in I mean I'm what's
up?
There's like over 800 people, you know, we're
hundreds of people in Michigan hundreds of people
in Pennsylvania And I was as well probably
I have my phone cover.
Yeah, I have my my spies You have
to and a lot of spies on those
groups or maybe people in a you know
Part of the Democrat Democratic Party machinery You
know, they're in there kind of minions or
whatever but Yes, so it seems It seems
like they maybe do you think is a
Gen Z thing as well?
Why is it like all generations because I
feel like Gen Z even here all over
the world they don't they're not as passive
As you know compliant as no deal That
is absolutely true I don't know if that's
what tip the scale in the election But
I do know that from my because we
will have to wait to see what the
data is on how much Gen Z turned
out to vote in general Traditionally the younger
generation is underrepresented in electoral politics They usually
don't get out the vote But you're absolutely
right about the character of Gen Z and
I've seen I've experienced that a lot of
on the activist scene so if you go
to the activist scene the protests and and
that whole the college scene absolutely very unapologetic
very You know, they need guidance like they
make sort of some mistakes as we all
do but they're thirsty for the guidance Which
I give them credit for they want they
want someone to come in and show them
What's the Islamic way to do all this?
They want to politically organize they want to
have a real impactful change They they are
not afraid to go to toe-to-toe
with anybody.
They're ready to go to toe-to-toe
with elected officials They're ready to go toe
-to-toe with the universities They're ready to
go toe-to-toe with all of these
threats that they have they understand the threats
that are against them quite well But they
they need help And they need help with
how to do that.
So I'm just so definitely that's that's a
that's an accurate assessment I'm not sure and
time will tell whether that translated into being
an effect with no election or not.
But did you see?
Shift in attitude in in older generations as
well.
Yes so that's the thing like the people
who we know voted and the people who
are in the In the chat groups and
duking it out over these issues.
They were the older generations they were that
mid generation of the from 30 to 50
or from 30 to 55 and They I
was I was pleasantly surprised how many people
came around So from from afar, it seems
like it was basically look.
Yeah, Trump says bad things about us who
might say bad things about us, but The
Democrats are doing actively doing bad things about
us We need to just just take the
bear the nuisance the the tedium of the
first one to punish the second one yeah,
I mean the thing was the Democrats made
it easy in the sense that They didn't
give anything for the Muslim community like all
of the Democratic operatives would have loved I'm
sure they were pulling out their hair They
would have loved if the Democratic Party just
gave them something to stand on but they
gave them nothing and so in the face
of such callousness and disrespect I mean for
For the love of God you go you
run with Liz Cheney and you brag you
brag in Michigan and you brag that a
hundred neocons Are endorsing you like as I
said on Paul's program.
It's as if they wanted to lose It
was the most cynical campaign I've ever seen
It was the most spiteful campaign to the
Muslims I've ever seen as almost like it
was almost like they're dangling a leash To
the Muslim community and say all right time
to get back on the leash Muslims Like
that was the attitude with which so it
became very very hard People saying well Trump,
you know moved the embassy We're talking moving
the embassy which obviously none of us like
Moving the embassy versus we're looking at kids
body parts every day in Plastic bags like
you can't you can't compare those two things.
Oh Trump is going to You know end
democracy The Democrats already ended democracy like like
look at how they pushed out anybody else
they undermine it They made sure that it
was Harris as opposed to anybody else.
They don't want an open primary They didn't
want any competition that Harris was there.
Look at how they go for their rivals
go against their rivals They shut out Palestinians
at the Democratic Convention They as I said
spit in the face of anybody who hopes
that even wishes them Well that has a
dissenting opinion They're so spiteful like they really
really Messed it up like like they it
was almost a foregone conclusion So people were
not willing to tolerate that type of discourse
They were not willing to be told things
are going to be worse under Trump and
even now You have in all of these
whatsapp groups and places.
You've got the one voice who is saying
Oh, you guys don't know what you just
did Trump is going to do this trauma
stuff But most people don't care most people
said like yeah, that was a calculated risk
that we took but we could not give
a raise and a promotion to someone who
was in charge when this genocide happened and
Make no mistake.
I mean if you had if Harris had
won it would have been a promotion We
would have zero leverage whatsoever If they were
able to do that to us and then
get rewarded by having another four years No
self-respect or dignity either to be frank,
no, absolutely But like you mentioned Pretty much
all of the mainstream legacy media even lots
of the kind of Young kind of podcast
non-muslim podcasters out there.
They're talking about this being oh, it's because
of the economy Inflation all that kind of
stuff.
So you're squarely saying no it was because
Primarily because of the genocide Absolutely Look at
where they spent their money That's just look
at where the campaign spent their money what
their messaging was No one was talking about
the economy in the last ten days the
campaign No one was talking about immigration like
once in a while, but if you've got
ten talking points Seven of those ten talking
points for each campaign was about was about
foreign policy was about as I was about
Middle East is about Israel that was what
was on everybody's minds lips and that was
where the expenditures went.
So you have to follow the money Well,
it's one thing I'm really in we're really
interested in is turning like the momentum into
a Movement, right?
Yeah What's the plan now?
You've got all you've got a success under
your belt as a Muslim community there.
You've got people riled up you've got people
getting a taste of some you know Self
-respect dignity standing on their own feet not
not waiting for someone else to give them
anything but demanding stuff.
How do we Utilize this and build upon
this now.
Absolutely.
Well, I think two main lessons Perhaps three
that have come out of the last year.
What we learned is that who funds you
runs you so the the previous playbook for
a Muslim individual organization if they wanted to
if they felt like they want to get
involved in the political advocacy space was to
Get together your organization And your pitch deck
and get funding from one of these big
institutions He's not what Imam Dawood Waleed calls
the non-profit industrial complex To basically get
funding outside of the community now what happens
with that is that those funds almost always
come with either strings attached either explicit strings
attached or subliminal psychological strings the idea that
You have to that the way to change
is through relationship building and Through loyalty proving
your loyalty to a party or to a
politician and then getting favors later on By
the time you wait for those favors, you
will be dead.
They will they have not materialized.
They will not materialize They did not materialize
so People found themselves that many of the
main orgs that purport.
I should say many Some of the main
orgs that purports to represent the Muslim community
within the political advocacy space were completely dominated
by funding outside the community and therefore they
were they were not accountable to the community
astroturf a hundred percent so when the community
is saying genocide is a red line and
then their funders are Organizations that are aligned
with the Democratic Party and they understand themselves
to be funding other Initiatives that are aligned
with Democratic Party interests and They then are
in a position where they essentially turn back
to the community and say well, have you
thought about?
immigration Like no, we're talking about genocide They
have compromised themselves whether they did it intentionally
or not The worst of them did it
intentionally in order to get a position and
that their career path Well, but many of
them did it unintentionally where they came in
with good intentions.
They thought this is how the game works
I guess this is what we have to
do you show up for all the PR
things and take your selfies and and your
Pictures with Harris and pictures of Biden and
pictures with the center and that senator and
you think that you're positioning yourself to make
a change They're using you for credibility.
You're not going to make any change whatsoever.
So Realizing that our community is infiltrated with
some of these groups that have been That
we have gotten very very low ROI We
have very very low return on investment with
this type of work and learning that we
need to be funded by ourselves that you
cannot hope to really make change if you
are not actually funded by yourselves in the
community and therefore accountable to the community So
we have some work to do when it
comes to cleaning house and making sure that
we isolate and don't platform those types Of
groups who are really haven't really done much
of anything They sell to the Democrats that
they are the power brokers of the Muslim
community They sell to the community that they
will give access to the the elected officials
and nothing really ends up trickling Either way,
they just put themselves up as a middleman
and the gatekeepers so cleaning house and Deplatforming
and isolating and shutting out.
These orgs is very very important and the
other thing that we learned is that you
cannot do politics if you're not willing to
talk to both sides and Negotiate on both
sides that this is not that our whole
theory of allyship is off before October of
last year We thought well we find the
people who are sort of progressive values, right,
you know the LGBTQ community and racial justice
community and pro-immigration and all the lefty
issues and this is our coalition and we're
going to march, you know, the aggrieved minorities
are going to march through and and you
know institute change and That was that didn't
work.
That didn't work.
The ROI was very very low Now what
we did see because people will respond and
we'll criticize that assessment they'll say but people
were so Supportive of Palestine you had I
heard I was told I was told by
somebody who was a Muslim I was a
Muslim that said this may Allah guide them
in us that queer children were Linking arms
and protecting Muslims when they were praying at
a protest Like a first of all, there
is no such thing as a queer child
second of all second of all Okay, we
can respect people's good intentions and even their
high toleration of risk But what was the
result of all of that allyship?
What was the result of what we did?
What did we get in exchange?
Nothing like to be frank like we got
a lot of noise.
We got a lot of venting at protests
We we did not actually stop the genocide.
We didn't even slow it down So now
we have to go back to the drawing
board and crunch the numbers and say is
This worth the investment because this comes at
a price.
What's the price that it comes at in
these circles?
We often have to leave our values at
the door.
They accept us for our identities, but they
do not accept our values and so now
you've got a space you show up to
a protest where you show up to some
sort of coalition work and That space does
not reflect your values You can't even mobilize
your community to come because your community will
not come if there's rainbow flags everywhere Right.
So what did you do?
your community did not come along with you
and They're patting you on the back and
they're saying we support you We'll do like
this that the third for you, but you're
not getting anything done.
You're not getting results so this entire arrangement
needs to be rethought and To add it
to add to that They not only dominate
the space culturally and say well, yeah, well,
how can you not be for queer liberation,
too?
This is intersectionality.
If you're going to be for Palestinian to
liberate there are queers in Palestine.
You have to be for right?
So that's asking us to give up our
values But then they also police us and
tell us who we can and can't talk
to So if you wanted to engage with
someone who's on the right who's an anti
-war Isolationist on the right or like a
God first Republican or something like this they'd
say You're you're this or you're that you're
you know They'll have names for you and
they'll say that they can't work with you
because they have a puritanism to them So
this is a strategic mistake We cannot allow
ourselves to join up with people who are
gatekeeping and telling us Who we're allowed to
to be in coalition with that's not sovereignty
We have given up our sovereignty within the
space of allyship.
We need to reassert and reassess How we
need to reassert our sovereignty in these spaces
and reassess our relationships Anybody who's trying to
tell us who we can and can't work
with?
No, sorry You don't get to work with
us anymore So we have to because there
are people on the right that are starting
now We have Candace Owens and her types.
We have people who we at Tucker Carlson
All right, he's got some some stuff but
you've got people who are starting Thomas Massey
is about to introduce legislation into the Congress
that is going to Attempt to prevent dual
citizenship holders from being lawmakers And that is
a direct attack at Zionism and the Israeli
lobby So it's not going so what the
Democratic sort of infiltrated Either mentally or institutionally
will say is the only people in Congress
asking for a ceasefire are Democrats So what
you guys have placed yourself on the left
and the right Anybody who would be a
potential ally on the right thinks that being
a Muslim or being pro-palestinian is a
leftist Antifa issue so you have actually pigeonholed
us and Limited what we can do by
stacking up beat with the left in a
loyalty first sort of way so our whole
Idea of what we're doing when we're doing
coalition work and who were allowed to ally
with and work with has to be completely
revamped the third thing that we learned the
third thing that we learned is that Making
a demand making a threat and delivering on
that threat works This was the philosophy of
abandoned Biden.
They said that we're giving you a deadline.
Here's the deadline You need to have a
permanent ceasefire by this deadline if you do
not do it, there will be political consequences
You're not gonna be in office come November
and it worked.
Okay.
Now, what is that gonna look like as
many people are like, oh We have to
avoid another mistake We can't just run to
the right and do that make the same
mistakes with the right that we made with
the left That would be also a huge
mistake because some people are saying.
Oh, we're Muslims are more natural allies to
the right We got traditional values.
I don't buy that.
It's not it's not that simple The right
has different sub movements different flavor of liberalism.
Yes, and it's just not that's not how
you do politics You don't it's not a
loyalty.
We're not getting married.
We're not making Bay.
Ah, we're not hitching ourselves.
There's no rishta.
We're not Hitching ourselves to any one side.
What we're doing is who are the people
who are willing to work on this issue
and Then we're gonna take them left or
right and nobody's gonna tell us what what
to do and nobody's gonna tell us who
we have to work with or who we
can't work with and then we're gonna move
forward from there, so now we have a
Trifecta Where we have a tripod that is
very rare that happens at American politics where
you've got both the house and the Senate
and the Executive are all the same party
Yeah, can you can you I was gonna
ask you about that actually because can you
explain to?
So you guys have the House of Commons
in the House of Lords Yeah, because the
House of Lords for us is not elected
or anything It's just you know, right and
we have house our House of Commons is
the House of Representatives But we also have
a House of Lords ish things with the
Senate But it is elected Representatives only have
two-year terms and there's many of them.
There's over there hundreds of them senators This
is all Congress, okay, the Congress has two
houses a bicameral you say Parliament we say
Congress I guess Parliament Congress is more.
Okay, so we have the Senate.
There's two senators from each case is only
50 senators and They're on six-year terms
So they're they're there for longer.
They're much more influential So that's why we
always have someone being reelected every two four
or six years there's there's a cycle so
It's rare that one party control both the
House of Representatives and the Senate and the
president And that's what we have now So
we have Trump now in the White House
as the executive the Republicans control the Senate
and the Republicans control the House of Representatives
They would like to keep this control as
long as possible Right if they're able to
control this as long as possible.
It's very easy for them to push legislation
If the House or the Senate were to
flip blue in two years, they would have
a much harder time accomplishing their goals So
what we need to do in my opinion
in order to keep the Republicans honest and
to make them deliver on Their some of
their rhetoric and some of their promises is
to say hey Republicans If you do not
do X and It could be a ceasefire.
It could be arms embargo.
It could we have to decide exactly what
that is.
You don't do X by date why we
are going to ensure that we flip the
house back to the Democrats in two years
time and we're going to now make a
list of How many people do we need
to flip in order to do that?
How many seats do we need to flip
to put the majority in the Democrats?
Where are they weakest?
What are the races that are vulnerable and
Who are we gonna races as in?
electoral races Which electoral race in which electoral
race are they vulnerable?
I know I get this cross-atlantic stuff.
I'm all for it I'm all for it.
But sometimes the lingo sometimes our lingo we
get a little in trouble.
Anyway, so What were you saying?
so Basically Which which politicians would they save
seats or when they're in a vulnerable seat?
Yeah Yeah so which seats are vulnerable and
Then we're going to recruit people and say
we're going to run this person on a
Democratic ticket or an independent ticket depending on
the situation they're going to be anti-zionist
and They're going to win against your Republican
Representative to the point where we flip it
if they don't meet our demands So that's
how we have to this formula is a
working formula as the punishment formula in order
to keep them Moving and to keep us
on the offense and that's what you have
to do Yeah, that's a that's a very
very I really agree with the idea really
and we should try something similar in the
UK as well Muslim vote campaign is more
like movement like a like a five election
cycle kind of campaign and It requires us
to not be To obviously no loyalty to
a party, but also no kind of Undying
hatred to a party either you need to
have that flexibility that look you're controlling You're
you're you're acting rationally in that and tactically
that look we you know It's not an
issue of saints and sinners.
It's not like one is a shaytan and
one is an angel, but look Tactically we're
going to use our power to to push
and to push to for this one to
win not because we like them but because
we want to exercise Exercise leverage exercise power
because nobody's going to give it to you
You have to you have to show a
threat Exactly and that takes maturity because we've
had some situations here where?
The messaging gets lost because people think that
they're pledging Bayer when they when they vote
That's that's sort of the immaturity that we
have to educate around.
So in Pennsylvania, for example, we had Bob
Casey was a senator He was a senator
for 17 years.
His father was a senator before him huge
Zionist tons of AIPAC money We delivered a
loss.
He's gone now And we're gonna we're gonna
claim that victory definitely as ours 100%
Now the guy who's coming in to replace
him McKenzie is also a Zionist.
He's new to pot He's newish to politics.
So he doesn't have as much debt to
pay, but he said horrible things about About
Palestine and he's many trips to Israel and
things of this nature Now the immature the
immature sort of political take would be well,
you guys didn't do anything You just replaced
one Zionist with another with another Zionist.
Maybe he's gonna be worse That's not the
point the point is that you punt you
made an example out of somebody and now
you sent a message to everybody and You
send the message and you exercise the punishment
as often as you have to until everybody
gets the message So maybe McKenzie doesn't believe
that it was the Muslim vote that actually
toppled Casey.
Okay We'll take that we'll wait for six
years and then we'll prove it again If
he doesn't if he doesn't tow the line
that we want him to tow And then
if you're able to do that, the politicians
will get wise to it.
They will say okay this whole Zionist thing
It sounds good.
It's a lot of money, but it's not
worth it.
You're only gonna be a one-term politician
So that's what it has to be and
and we have to you know, that requires
comms You know communications that requires media requires
lots of things, but we're getting there I
think people are realizing that there are situations
in which You have to just punish somebody
even if they're not gonna be replaced by
a better somebody Because you're trying to it's
not about having your hero in office.
That's not how politics works It's about punishing
certain political behaviors Imagine like, you know, some
people have dogs or like the shock collar
like you get to a certain thing and
it like shocks them We are establishing a
shock collar for politicians that they go beyond
a certain line and they get shocked And
if we have to do it to every
single one of those dogs Masha'Allah, I
mean it's a you know, we're glad to
hear that from the Allah So in summary,
I'm presuming it's not just about the next
six years the next election, but between now
and then establishing Comms establishing yourself as a
presence that look we're watching you, you know,
we're we're gonna hold you to account We're
counting, you know The ways that you vote
we're establishing all of this this data and
stuff.
So number one you said going forward Who
funds you runs you?
Yeah, so you're looking at kind of more
independent funding for the Muslim community grassroots getting
rid of astroturf organizations Parachuting in and stuff
number two was rethinking allyship You know looking
at it's not about They are it's not
about being in camps.
It's not about You know pledging legions to
one one group or another but on a
case-by-case thing on this issue Anyone
left-wing right-wing whoever MAGA, you know,
whoever agrees us on this point You know,
we work together on that and it's no
like, you know No tribalism that regard and
number three you're saying Establish you're going to
establish a longer-term strategy of punishing any
any politician Who basically gets out of line
and try to build your power that way?
You mentioned the phrase ROI a return on
investment.
Yes can you can you see a Future
where you can get as good an ROI
as as a pack does because they spend
a few hundred million and they get billions
In return.
Absolutely.
I think that's not the best I Absolutely
think we can get there because it always
takes more money to prop up falsehood than
to support the truth So they have to
they have to spend that much Because what
they're asking people to run cover for is
so despicable and so evil That it requires
that many resources and that much attention in
order to keep it going if we were
to exercise a Tenth of the effort and
money that a pack exercises.
We could probably get the same results I
have no doubt about that and you have
that money It's there.
It's there.
It just needs to be organized just needs
to be organized You know outnumbered.
Yeah, we are organized hundred percent.
Yeah in terms of Republicans, right so Going
forward now, what's your assessment?
I mean like 20 years ago, you know,
we remember that that it was a time
younger people might think what they can't imagine
a time where Muslims were kind of Close
to Republicans and all that family values all
that kind of stuff, but then obviously it
didn't stop the war on terror I didn't
stop them spying on you and locking you
up and you know, genociding all over the
world in Muslim lands What what lessons can
we learn from there?
You did touch on it a bit in
terms of don't be you know Tribalistic and
so but are there any other lessons in
terms of going forward now you have Republicans
in all three kind of branches of the
state What lessons can we learn from the
last time around in bed with Tribalism is
precisely the word for it.
I'm glad that you use that I think
a hundred percent we need to stop being
tribalistic when it comes to politics and we
need a more sophisticated Political language because in
reality the the right is not the same
in 2024 as it was in 2016 and
there's lots of scholarship on this stuff like
Reaganites are not the same as neocons and
neocons are not the same as tea partiers
and tea partiers are not the same as
MAGA, right you we actually have to stop
being so tribalistic and like Republican bad Democrat
good and we need to actually pay attention
to the movements that are going on and
everything's fluid that people don't realize that Everything
is fluid in politics.
Everything is constantly shifting and rather than does
not just genders But you have to take
a Steering position when it comes to how
things are developing and moving.
So right now a perfect example There's a
huge tussle on the right as to what
type of Trump administration.
We're gonna see a lot of conservatives are
Against the pump against Mike Pompeo coming back
and returning it to a major role within
the the cabinet He was a hawkish neocon
type Bolton was also a hawkish neocon.
So even though Trump ran on a populist
Message and a populist campaign He definitely had
neocons in his in his cabinet that acted
like neocons if I was asked recently Like
what are the two most harmful?
Movements left and right to the Muslims and
I actually think at least in foreign policy
But honestly in general I would say on
the right were the neocons and on the
left with the neoliberals I think both the
neocons and neoliberals were the worst things for
Muslims Because of the securitization the security state
the surveillance state the foreign policy all these
things I really don't like the the progressive
trans agenda either But look at how much
we've been able to push back on that
as well They don't have as much teeth
as the neoliberal state.
I think my personal opinion though.
They're bad.
That's not the point The point is to
actually talk in sophisticated ways about these different
movements and be able to understand what is
the potential which with each one and what
is the limitation and Then which ones do
we want to engage with and try to
enhance?
Versus which ones do we want to undermine
and Neutralize so when it comes to the
right We certainly have a strategic interest in
making sure that the America first God first
Republicans the ones that are anti interventionist That
they triumph over the neocons That is a
hundred percent a priority for the Muslim community
that we want to be engaging Thomas I
bring up Thomas Massey a lot and Thomas
Massey is a demonstration of how poor and
unsophisticated The Muslim political thinking was up until
very recently.
He was targeted by AIPAC.
They tried to primary him in his in
his Republican primary with a Zionist Republican and
he won thankfully, but the Muslim community did
absolutely nothing to help him now Despite that
he seems to be a person of principle
or at least more so than many Republicans
So he's still doing things that are yes.
He opposes us Intervention in Palestine, maybe not
for the same reasons that you and I
do but he still does so we have
a strategic interest in engaging and enhancing and
strengthening people like Candace Owens people like Thomas
Massey people that are this type of Republican
and this type of conservative and attempting to
neutralize and to undermine the Ted Cruz's and
the Mark Rubio's and the people who are
and the John Fetterman's and the and the
you know these people who are full-on
neocon very Anti Muslim anti-islamic sentiment and
the same goes for the left.
There are other movements on the left.
There are neoliberals They're a centrist.
There are democratic socialists.
There are far leftists we have to assess
who are the people that are strategic for
the Muslims to Enhance and to strengthen and
who are the ones that are actually really?
Unstrategic or they are against our interests and
try to undermine them.
We have to get over that impulse, you
know We have this thing that this voice
Sometimes actually real people saying, you know, how
can you support so-and-so when she
said XYZ?
We have to get out of that kind
of that impulse that it's not about You
know Rishta It's not about you know And
Joining their tribe, but you have to have
keep them at an arm's length, but say
it recognize that look tactically Yeah, this person
is far better than or far less bad
compared to to that person and we have
to we have to find a way to
To get that maturity across because I can
just see someone saying well last year you
told us abandon Democrats and now you're telling
us to vote for and what's all this
flip-flopping going on?
We need that kind of political maturity absolutely,
and you have to pay attention to how
people react to these things to like I
met with Jill Stein in a private meeting
and I told her I said we understand
that the Green Party's position on LGBTQ is
not our position as a Muslim community and
This is not going to change.
It's like we understand you're not going to
change We understand we're not going to change
but what our biggest anxiety is and therefore
it's an obstacle to your campaign is People
are going to be afraid of the overreach
especially with our religious institutions if you go
with a maximalist LGBTQ agenda, and so if
you're going to ever Speak about this issue,
which she didn't really a lot because I
well I also told her I wouldn't recommend
speaking about this at all but if you
have to then apps then you should be
sure to mention religious freedom and the sovereignty
of religious groups and their practices and their
houses of worship and their schools and things
like that in the same breath because if
you Don't it's a non-starter.
You're gonna be you're gonna have people who
are never gonna vote for you in a
million years From the Muslim community, even if
it's the strategic move because you're basically advertising
something that's so repulsive to them now She
didn't end up taking that advice So she
actually posted something on her social media within
the last week or two of the campaign
That was totally a maximalist LGBTQ thing So,
I mean a lot of people I'm certain
that that probably turned people more towards Trump
then towards that then towards her and It
was also the notes that you take down
when you're talking to and you're trying to
play hardball You're trying to negotiate with a
politician.
Is this person responsive to what I told
them that this has to happen.
It didn't happen You're done like, you know,
like that's you know You you had your
chance and now I move to somebody else
because there's there's other fish in the sea
We have to be comfortable walking away and
Getting back in the game and seeing seeing
what else is out there.
You're never gonna get anywhere Through this loyalty
politics of just you know, attach yourself to
this person or this party You know, I'll
tell you a secret last time last time
around when Trump was Elected I really kind
of I mean all we saw was all
this Kind of scaremongering against him.
He's so evil.
He's this is a fascist.
Is this and that and This time around
all of that stuff that was coming from
the the kind of mainstream liberal media It
was like I had zero Effect on me.
I was like this I've seen your Because
first time around I bought we bought into
the the liberal criticisms of him and the
smears and so forth But now we've seen
the liberals for the real genocidal face of
liberals different flavor of white supremacy You know
like Malcolm X would say, you know, they're
smiling Fox compared to the wolf and I
really wanted Trump to and I was like
a big following like watching because he was
he's been on real kind of Podcasts and
and and just getting out there and that's
when I saw about a month ago.
I said this guy's gonna win He's going
on all these podcasts.
He's speaking people directly.
He's just riffing He's just going going to
rallies and just Let's just be quiet listen
to music and start swaying and stuff This
is like it's just he's getting around.
He's circumventing all of that machinery that's that's
been creating these narratives of fear-mongering and
and Yeah, I think I thought perhaps the
The stuff we were told about him first
time around and since then was not true
it is is he a nice guy It
doesn't matter.
The thing is that he's a politician and
that's the thing like like there's always is
he a politician or is he?
Actually trying to enter this with different rules
and stuff.
I don't think that Trump believes in anything
but himself Right.
I think that and that's why he he
changes and he flip-flops and he you
know He's got an enormous ego He wants
to be seen in a positive light He
would love to bring some he's very unsophisticated
when it comes to his understanding of foreign
policy and stuff like that But he would
love to be seen as the person who
makes peace in the Middle East He would
love nothing more than to be given like
a Nobel Peace Prize or something like that
because it strokes his ego Now some that's
been my argument for a while that you
can you can manipulate somebody like that, right?
You can create situations in which their interests
align with your interests.
He's not an ideologue He does say that
you know, he has personally suffered at the
hands of the deep state and stuff like
that so I think of all the things
are or any of the things that he
might actually believe in are his whole things
about with the deep state but even that
like if he was so against the deep
state and why did he have Pompeo and
people like Bolton in the circles like these
are deep state guys and You know have
those people in well It's possible they're they're
they're jockeying right now, so that'll be really
interesting.
Is it going to be a Kushner Pompeo?
Sort of administration or is it going to
be he's got his his Trump jr Is
very different from Kushner and he's got his
other son-in-law The Lebanese guy a
lot of people are saying that they're gonna
have a lot more influence I was told
some I was told privately from people who
had meetings with Trump that He's basically pushing
Kushner out if that's true That's actually a
very very positive thing for the Muslims because
Kushner is a Zionist But the thing is
that I don't believe that Trump believes in
much.
I think that he's he's Except himself, which
you would rather deal with somebody like that
then Then somebody who's ideologically attached to Zionism.
Trump's not a good person.
He's not a moral person.
He's done terrible things He did he did
horrible things in in Yemen.
Let's not forget that so we don't I
don't believe in and I don't think is
Necessary to rehabilitate Trump as this like misunderstood
person.
Now.
What's true about what you're saying?
Is that the Democrat and liberal?
Smear campaigns are so vitriolic that they cease
to become credible So you can't you can't
separate fact from fiction anymore and this actually
happened when it came to You know, they
were going after Trump throughout his whole Tenure
with his Russia connections and it was it
was kind of farcical.
They never were able to get anything really
on him so then when January 6th happened
which was actually something major, which I actually
agree was like That's a problem that's a
boy who cried wolf Like the bull he
cried wolf.
The Democrats had no credibility left They're just
like you guys have it in for Trump
and it muddied the waters It would have
been a clear moral thing to be like,
hey, look, let's join up with Pence And
let's join up with the other Republicans in
the military.
I said, this is too far We can't
have this as a precedent for challenging election
results This is gonna endanger democracy, but they
had always had it out for Trump We're
always trying to catch him on something and
so they didn't have any credibility.
So what their their their viciousness and their
Uncharitable and the other thing too is that
the Democrats will criticize Republicans for things that
they do when they're in office It's they're
lit they're so tribalistic and partisan that yeah,
it makes them impossible to believe just like
how How many Americans did not?
Go with the official line and they fought
the official line about kovat and everything like
that because the pharmaceutical industry has no credibility
Nobody trusts the pharma industry or the health
industry in the United States because they've been
screwing people over part of my language They've
been they've been exploiting people for decades and
then you expect everybody to fall in line
and listen to the CDC and Say that
oh, yeah, let's do whatever the city's like
you you can't possibly that's not a rational
thought So this is the same thing the
Democrats when they smear Trump you always have
to take it with a grain of salt
Maybe some of the things that I say
are true or there's a kernel or there's
some truth in it But it has become
very very hard to separate What is the
actual real threat?
From what is just democratic propaganda because they
want to make him seem like the worst
thing ever because they want you to vote
for them while they Send us vacuous candidates
with no personality and no policy.
Hmm.
You know, I was thinking when I was
hearing some of these kind of people crying
on the radio and Kind of having a
breakdown though.
This is terrible Trump and then all three,
you know Representatives the Senate everything is I
was thinking maybe if we ask these people
how do you feel right now?
Oh, no, everything's everything's kind of closing in
around us.
Now.
How do you feel about?
this person having his finger on a button
controlling 700 military bases all over the world
and I was just thinking like Could there
be something here where you get people who
are actually shaken up to get them to
realize that wait a second Is there is
it a good idea to have Such an
expensive such a vast Empire so much so
many boots on the ground different countries So
many nuclear weapons so many there's so many
so much so much Power all over the
world and to try and maybe in in
that some way I know Jill Stein ran
on the ticket of okay, you know closing
all the bases and a dismantling empire Is
there a way we can carve out some
kind of campaign that look you realize that
this?
Someone like this in your in your own
words is a threat to the world of
that democracy, whatever Now, you know, how about
you working on scaling back some of the
the boundaries of this this US Empire?
I mean, he does seem like a person
who's all America first and you know anti
interventionist and isolationist and stuff and that could
maybe help In that regard if he's not
surrounded by neocons, do you think there's something
in there?
I mean, there's something Sort of like that
it's already underway.
I mean that is a faction of the
right at this point I think that one
thing that nobody has tried yet is to
attempt to run a nonpartisan Campaign around process
issues so that we have a fair fight.
What do I mean?
I mean that there are certain things that
make American elections very easy to buy very
easy to influence like why does a pack
have so much power?
There are very very common-sense issues like
Trump, I think one of his slogans is
Common core of common sense or something like
that.
Like there are certain things about how decisions
are made politically in the United States that
the vast majority of Americans agree with that
Nobody has really seriously attempted to sally a
campaign for now Imagine if you put together
a very very targeted we're not going to
get involved in the culture wars We're not
going to get involved in the social issues.
We're going to fix campaign finance We're going
to fix Ranked versus first past the post
voting.
We're gonna fix The whole super PAC phenomenon.
We're going to fix all of these things
that determine how politics happen in the United
States, which makes it very susceptible to moneyed
interests and to External interference and makes the
fight so much harder like you could fight
a pack by making a Muslim a pack
or You could make them register under FARA
and take money out of politics and there
won't be anything like a pack ever again
What's right?
Far is the foreign agent Something or other
act where it forces Groups to register within
the the federal government as acting on the
interests of foreign agents So a pack has
not been forced to register as a foreign
agent Even though it acts in the interest
of Israel that would limit what they can
do Right, there are things on the books
that are law that hasn't been applied the
Leahy acts which actually affect whether US military
aid can go to nations that are committing
atrocities and violating international laws These things are
law right but the thing is that if
you find it the thing that we have
to do or one of the things that
we have to do is study the way
That decisions are made rather than only focus
on the end product of policies What are
the processes that arrive at these policies in
the first place?
If you look at the political terrain, we
have a very unfair fight.
The the inputs are enormous all these sorts
of things How do we actually level a
playing field?
Nobody has actually attempted to do this that
to my knowledge and I think that that
would actually be a really interesting Attempt or
a really interesting movement to initiate So no,
okay, that can be another thing you can
what you guys can work on So that's
getting late here we've got a we took
a lot of time let's let's regroup after
a few weeks you get you crack on
with you know, trying to try to influence
the tussle within Trump's inner circle and outer
circle as much as you can inshallah Congratulations
again We'll stop the recording in a minute
You can put your mega cat back on
but my hair for joining us.
Well, let's let's regroup in a few weeks
inshallah And see how you get on And
that's my head on to you at home
for watching if you like this podcast as
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