Tom Facchine – Are Muslims Growing Secular Minds Without Realising
AI: Summary ©
The speakers stress the negative impact of Sec carrierism on society, including belief in religion and the shift from liberal values to digital values. They use tools like the APJ (A Public Service) to solve problems and encourage others to use it, leading to beneficial change in behavior. The success of these tools leads to a beneficial change in behavior.
AI: Summary ©
Brother lives in California and your parents are
in Texas and you have no relation you
call each other once a month What relationship
is that for the 1940s people thought of
religion in the United States as a force
that brought people together a so-called Israel
Violated the international law because it is backed
by the u.s We should be clever
enough not to be divided the basis for
unity is a flock not Ideology if there
is an enmity, yeah, it's a ability.
He hasn't respond to any negative thing by
positive thing What's what are some things that
amount to me you think?
Specialists the lab in students knowledge should know
about secularism because it's often presented and we
often just You know absorb some presumptions that
it's it's neutral and you know certain things
about secularism What would you say from your
perspective and you're reading some of the things
we need to know about this man?
I'm the last thoughts on this.
Oh, yeah I think the most basic thing
to understand is that there is no such
thing as neutrality Secularism presents itself as something
that's very neutral the absence of an ideology
the absence of values An empty space where
everybody can come and exchange ideas and that's
not true Secularism is a subtle and persistent
force to try to change values in a
certain direction and Once you realize that you
can start to pay attention to okay.
Well, then what's the force that secularism is
exerting upon?
Religions upon people upon families upon institutions.
What are the things that it's trying to
create?
What are the things that it's trying to
stop and then once you observe these sort
of pervasive forces You see that really it's
about creating a new type of religion.
Okay, so whether it's Christianity whether it's Islam
If we imagine that if the Dean were
a cloth Then secularism would be trying to
cut the cloth To fit into a certain
box or to fit into a certain mold.
So it will be trying to create For
as you know as far as people understand
it They think it's Islam, but it's really
just a selectivity of some parts of Islam
The emphasis being changed some parts being emphasized
some parts being ignored some parts being You
know considered taboo or things like that So
these forces are constantly working on us and
they're working on us through media through books
through movies through commercials through YouTube You know,
we don't even necessarily realize it Even it
shapes our emotional reactions to things, right?
So for example we're seeing the butch the
butchery happening in Gaza and Philistine and we
see how How much violence can be done
to the people of Philistine and how much
how?
Little is the pushback and restrained to be
honest is the pushback from like let's say
Palestinians or other people yet in the experience
of people in the UK or the US
some violence is Felt as much more significant
than others a Palestinian child picks up a
rock and throws it at an IDF soldier
and this is a potential terrorist in the
making whereas the IDF can press buttons and
bomb and assassinate people all day long and
It's justified now.
There's many reasons for this.
But one of the reasons is how secularism
shapes people's emotions because Religious violence if somebody
says allahu akbar when they pick up that
rock now all of a sudden everyone's afraid
Right, but if someone says national defense now,
we're okay.
This is understandable It also touches our idea
about gender roles and our idea idea about
family life, right?
You have a lot of people, you know
a hot topic should women Stay home and
tend the kids and or should they you
know have careers or get jobs and you
know We're not trying to get into this
particular You know issue from a 50 perspective,
but just Know that secularism is not neutral.
It's not a neutral force in this equation
If you've been raised in a secular space
the sort of society around you Cares one
way or another which one you choose and
it will actually try to Push you to
make one choice rather than the other and
that can be again through media If you've
seen everybody in commercials and stuff and they
have high-powered jobs and careers and they're
smiling and they're you know They seem very
fulfilled Versus somebody who is you know, the
sort of backwards mom staying at home Who's
ignorant who kind of like, you know hits
the kids with the sandals and things like
this.
These are sort of emotional connections that are
being made through representation that actually Create desires
inside of human beings, right?
So someone gets to be 18 years old
20 years old 25 years old and they
say oh, I don't know I just feel
like I want to do this.
Okay Where do those feelings come from?
Now?
I'm not saying that all feelings can be
ascribed That's not it doesn't have that type
of power but it's an interesting mixture that
your feelings even about these things if you
have a visceral reaction in support of this
or against this Secularism is one of the
many forces that is shaping those feelings that
happen inside you So it's like by osmosis.
We just kind of grow up absorbing these
unspoken kind of premises and stuff Now I
interfere yeah Yeah to be honest with you
I started to look at things differently.
Okay, and There are two ways of looking
and at things at Concepts there is the
theoretical abstract way and there is the contextualized
way You don't find Values principles that do
exist in a vacuum Normally that Ideas including
values including Concepts they exist in a context
So I find that whenever we want to
evaluate Value a concept an idea we need
to contextualize it and that helps us to
be more practical and Little on to be
more intellectual but to be more practical when
we speak to people they don't perceive us
as you know Muslims who are speaking in
a vacuum and they are just those angry
Emotional Muslims that they just to criticize everything
that is not Islamic Why do I say
this?
I?
Believe now that you know after this aggression
and invasion of Gaza And you came from
America and we have seen the Z generation
Z Americans in America and Britain in the
West in particular, but in specifically in America
and in the UK that more young people
now are coming to Islam and It is
true that they are coming to Islam as
a spiritual Alternative for the lack of spirituality
that they have and Also as a Spiritual
booster when they see that the people of
Gaza despite what they are going through They
are still saying alhamdulillah, and they are able
to You know to be positive so they
are you know?
Wondering what is the reason behind that as
we all know?
but now We need to realize something so
significant to that We need to seize the
opportunity to present Islam as a civilizational alternative
because globally the UN most of the You
know international laws are failing to meet people's
expectations to provide an acceptable level of justice
Yeah, which is a basic human right and
that's why you know These young people are
start starting to question their countries their systems
the UN Etc etc because just simply how
on earth this genocide can take place and
no one is able to Stop it how
not just to stop it how on earth
that those people are starving to death and
no one is able to You know deliver
to them just clean water to drink What
is this kind of world?
Yeah, and you know the destruction in Gaza
goes beyond Imagination and no one is you
know still that leaders of most of the
Western countries are supportive of this genocide now
This I mean this vacuum which is presenting
Islam as a civilizational Alternative this needs from
us a different way of Addressing this generation
addressing in fact the whole world yeah and
Addressing young people and tackling these you know
these values these concepts these ideas Even secularism
secularism.
Yes from maybe an abstract point of view
is what you have mentioned Okay We may
agree disagree, but Generally speaking this is how
it can be described from a theoretical perspective,
but if someone were to say What is
the alternative?
Yeah, what is the alternative so you are
criticizing Secularism yeah, what is the alternative and
now this means this compels us to contextualize
the discussion Okay, just a minute alternative for
who Is it for a country like Saudi
Arabia?
Yeah, Egypt Yemen Pakistan Yeah, okay Muslim countries
Not just Muslim by majority, but they have
Islamic laws and or they are claiming that
they are you know implementing Islamic laws or
are you talking about a country like the
US?
Okay, so what is the alternative and that?
What I said, this is what I am
talking about Contextualization Yeah, so for example To
say Islam and present Islam as a civilizational
alternative.
What does that mean?
Yeah, so for example when you say Secularism
versus Islam then what you mentioned is true
absolutely true but Secularization maybe in the absence
of Islam Maybe is one of the best
forms So for example America is not going
to implement Islam is not going to yeah.
So what is the What is the system
America should follow?
Yeah Okay, so maybe we can say well,
yeah secular secular system is the best for
America Because they are not going to implement
Islam apart from Islam some distinguish between the
secular and secularism right as You know complete
ideology complete package that is that has those
underlying forces but secular can mean Something which
isn't overtly to do with favoring one or
your Like we might say secular.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah So things that aren't necessarily directly attributed
to I agree, but let us talk practically
and Put everything into perspective in a contextualized
way America.
Okay, if we don't want them to implement
secularism So what do we want them to
implement?
Don't tell me Islam.
Okay, we know that Islam is that okay?
But let us not just be utopian or
just dreaming.
Okay?
Now yeah now currently what it will be
What's important is to recognize that secularism is
not neutral and if you recognize a lot
of the Theoretical baggage within it.
It helps you to prepare how to address
it.
It doesn't doesn't mean you have to throw
in replaces Aha, so that is you recognize
where are your assumptions coming from?
Okay, you're speaking us and because we unfortunately
do this a lot when we When we
talk about our rights, for example as Muslim
citizens, you see this this school in Wembley.
Yeah Yeah, or my my killer is in
hijab in front of something the way we
argue about our rights It's it unfortunately sometimes
in a very secularist lens as well we
end up missing an opportunity for example say
this is our right under As a religious
minority to practice our religion Whereas this is
something that secularism produces for you to to
say You know to make you some kind
of oddity that you are Against the norm
the norm is this you are against the
norm and we'll give you a few.
Okay?
Okay, rather than saying for example arguing from
perspective of it doesn't I don't have to
I shouldn't have to argue why I?
Want to This is the norm for me
Do you get what I mean?
Likewise press praying in school when you know
lunch break.
Why should it shouldn't be about prayer?
Okay Dr. Salman if we want to summarize
it, okay, so they say that America now
Okay, there is not enough Muslims for them
and to implement Islam and they don't want
to implement Islam Etc, America or England or
most of the European countries.
So what is the system that you propose?
Yeah, I want to approach it from a
slightly different angle which is that Let's make
sure that Islam remains in the United States
and the UK and that's the danger that
secularism poses What I mean by that is
that I think there were some statistics recently
about Scotland if I'm not mistaken about the
churches and the collapse of religion in Scotland
and and the same in the United States
Christianity is absolutely collapsing.
All right, the churches are empty.
They're selling them off.
I know here They're becoming nightclubs and pubs
and things like that in America.
They're similar and here the Muslim schools Yeah,
and also yeah, and also Muslim schools or
mosque and things of this nature, right?
Okay, so From what came this collapse?
Why did this collapse happen?
Alright, and you know as the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam told us to not Follow
into the steps of the the people of
the book down to the lizard hole.
That's not where we want to go My
argument is that they have allowed themselves to
be secularized and so they have nothing left.
Is that this happens in stages?
where Secularism forces a type of Reformation, right?
So as I said, it's a it's a
paring down It's like you're pruning a tree.
However, you know that if you prune a
tree you can prune it so far Yeah
that you kill it.
All right, so Secularism, you know, maybe there's
a sort of shelf life to this sort
of you know, the secular Christianity that was
divorced of some of its elements you know,
then they brought in, you know, the musical
instruments and the rock concerts for their services
and they you know, They they went away
from what was a larger tradition and and
my perspective is that We have to be
very very careful to make sure that we
don't engage in the same process or fall
prey to the same thing That if our
primary orientation, I believe our primary orientation as
Muslims You know God-fearing Muslims in the
West is Dawa.
Yeah, it should be Dawa now if we
experience a collapse Similar to what the Christians
have experienced then the question of system is
irrelevant The question of which system is going
to replace which system or whatever If we
don't have any actual Islam left and there's
nothing to to replace anything with So I
would just you know, because because you know
This is something like if you go back
to the RAND report and these sorts of
things, we know that it's very explicit It's
a very explicit project from governments think tanks
other organizations to sort of prop up this
Good Muslim, you know this other Islam this
cuddly Islam this Islam that fits into a
certain box of acceptability and that leaves everything
else behind And The next if we allow
that to happen to us the next stage
Maybe 20 30 40 years later is the
same collapse that that happened to the Christians
Yeah, if I may say just to summarize
this point, I think Absolutely.
What you are talking about is absolutely True
and no one argues about it.
But on the other hand we need you
know to when we Want to present ourselves
we need to present ourselves in a in
a realistic practical way So so we say
that okay for America or for Britain or
most of the European countries What is the
best system for them because they are not
going to implement Islam now Okay, we need
to say yes, maybe secularism is the best
way for you But we need some modifications
in order for this secularism first of all
not to become extreme secularism as it is
the French version of secularism extreme secularism and
there is a difference between neutral secularism and
secularism that is anti certain ideologies or certain
you know practices or Anti-islam secularism that
is Thomas being a bit polite There is
no neutral secularism I mean shake is completely
right that there are different varieties of secularism
laicite in in France is very aggressive It's
very it's it's got so much antagonism towards
religion.
I would say yes Yeah, I don't believe
that there is a neutral version of secularism
in that You know, whatever whatever variety you
find because the goods the goods that secularism
promises Right this supposedly neutral space in which
everybody can enter as equals and exchange and
tolerate We have to actually critically assess did
this happen, right?
is this something that happened or is it
something that failed and I would say that
if The if the entry cost right if
the cost of entering that space and having
some free dialogue is actually losing Part of
what made you special in the first place
then perhaps Secularism promised something that it couldn't
deliver upon.
I agree.
I totally agree Tom about that We are
not arguing about that, but I'm talking about
from a practical perspective now Okay.
Now in America, we have a secular system
go quote-unquote in Britain in most of
European countries No No, no, they see no
no, no, this is Salman you are an
academic person.
This is an oversimplistic way.
Okay Probe why is it that we have
way we were using the word secular to
describe defense or secular again, but No, no,
no see See Britain Okay, you don't drag
me don't distract me.
I'll answer this question later.
Okay, but My point is now there are
systems in America in Europe, etc and those
systems are Secular.
Yeah, quote-unquote with so many comments on
that as Muslims now brothers we need to
deal with the current situation and provide Alternate
Practical alternatives.
So instead of saying well secularism is not
a neutral etc.
They will ask us.
Okay.
So what do you propose?
We cannot say we are proposing Islam because
they are not ready and the infrastructure to
implement Islam is not there and they are
Not ready.
So what do you propose then?
We need maybe to go a little bit
a lower What is it?
Degree in order to provide some practical solutions
in order to make this secularism as in
neutral or as You know adjust as it
can be otherwise, we will be out of
touch Yeah, otherwise, we will just be talking
theoretically And and it won't be practical.
So so that's why I believe That let
us move on from that discussion Criticism again,
it's secularism secularism versus Islam.
Let us talk about secularism versus any other
system other than Islam and What can we
do in order to make this secularism a
better system?
Yeah for us as Muslims for everyone not
necessarily for everyone Until maybe yeah Allah knows
when when when the world is ready to
to endorse Islam or to embrace Islam We
can evaluate the situation Allah knows 50 years
later hundred years later Allah knows okay, but
now it is our challenge as the art
as intellectuals as academic to Present solutions based
on Islamic values But in the second level
degree not to tell them replace secularism with
Islam It won't work.
Yeah, we need to say for example human
rights Yeah, we need to make sure that
this and that and this and that yeah
Family values we need to make sure this
and that and this and that let us
provide the this level of solutions If I
may so it'll just take me I think
I have an answer to what you're asking
But it just will take me a little
bit to get there.
So there's there's two points And one of
them is that in the immediate when we're
doing dawah, excuse me You know, there's sort
of the civilizational alternative, right?
That we need to present to people which
you're talking about But there's also people some
people to be frank aren't concerned with the
civilizational level thinking some people they have pain
points that are much more immediate and personal
right and this is actually very fruitful for
dawah because in the wake of Secularism or
this type of secularism that is dominant people.
What have we seen?
You know, they have they're out of touch
with their spirituality, right?
They're separated from their fitra their relationships are
falling apart They're you know, their families are
falling apart.
Their jobs are unfulfilling They're subject to addiction
and substance abuse and all these sorts of
pain points, right?
I see them as in the wake of
secularism So there's actually much fertile ground From
a dawah perspective to approach people through these
pain points and not all of those people
really care about the civilizational alternative Though some
do and I know all of us do
right so Sometimes, you know as an entry
point Those are also important alternatives.
How does Islam contrast to what?
Whatever the system whatever we want to call
it has left you with look at how
you I know in the u.s I
always give the example your sister lives in
New York and your brother lives in California
and your parents are in Texas and you
have no relation you call each other once
a month.
What relationship is that?
I don't know if it's similar in the
UK, but this is something that generationally is
getting worse and worse and worse and worse,
right?
So That's one thing.
The second thing is that I think it's
really important not to necessarily Present.
Yes secularism versus Islam or things like that
But the trouble is that secularism operates in
the background in Such a way that it's
almost something that you can't see for most
people and so in criticizing it I think
the goal is to shine a light on
it and to show exactly what you're talking
about, which is Another way, I'll give you
an example in the way that people in
the United States related to religion and understood
religion and its role in society had a
dramatic shift after the 1940s if you go
to the Supreme Court and read their court
cases before you by the way This is
all in the myth of secular violence by
William T Kavanaugh It's a great book that
he says before the 1940s people thought of
religion in the United States as a force
that brought people together and a Force that
actually was a moral voice that kept the
values of the nation intact After the 1940s,
there was a dramatic shift and people started
from the you know The bottom up to
the Supreme Court started talking about religion as
a divisive force as something that Inspired violence
and division and we can't talk about religion
and politics as ever So it's not necessarily
a self-evident thing now in society people
take it as self-evident They say all
religion is so divisive and so this is
actually a very very recent way of looking
at things So I agree in the sense
that within the system that exists now, right?
There's room to maneuver you can point to
the 1930s and 1920s in America and say
hey look there was a time in this
country where We understood that religion was a
very important sort of mortar that held the
bricks of society together that we don't have
to be afraid of Whether it's Christianity or
Islam or things like that, right?
We can relate to it in a different
way.
I agree with that I think that there's
there's things that people need to understand, but
I don't see how you know Well, I'll
put it this way that pointing out these
sort of Assumptions that operate in the background.
I think is a very important part of
that process because Things especially as media continues
and people's understanding of the world becomes more
and more mediated through Associations and memes and
you know, it's very emotional like people again
the Palestinian child with a rock who says
allahu akbar touches on a whole constellation of
Associations that have been programmed into people, right?
So you need to have some sort of
way to critique just to shine the light
and say hey look Why do you think
that this is that way?
Why do you assume that this is worse
than this?
Whatever, right?
Yeah, I don't know.
This is a very American thing once I
was at a grocery store and There was
a bun is the most American thing I've
ever seen a bunch of beer cans arranged
in the shape of a tank with an
American flag on top People walk by it
every day and they say normal, right?
But this is very violent, right?
So people have these assumptions and they need
to be challenged.
They need to be shown now Yes, I
agree There's a personal dimension where people need
to be shown Islam can solve your issues
You have an addiction issue Islam can solve
it You have a family issue Islam because
Islam shows a different way for your relationships
for your relationship with your soul There's this
whole thing of the fitra that you've completely
ignored You've got all these pain points and
Islam can solve it and also to present
something civilizationally different You know, I don't see
us disagreeing like very very much, but I
do think that that The critique of secularism
is important not to not to keep it
too theoretical but just to show people that
listen there's thoughts that aren't your own that
you think and there's Feelings that you think
that were the process of a type of
education and it's not necessarily true I think
the problem is that we just jumped into
using the word secularism.
We could have just we could have used
Modernity we could use liberalism capital L what
we're talking about is very similar overlapping things
sick, for example breakdown of the family, you
know the Fracturing nature of secularism or liberalism
or modernity, right and that moves into what
you're saying about family values But so if
we recognize that the reason why families are
breaking up Siblings are talking to each other
less and less isn't that isn't just because
of like a coincidence No, it's because of
the rise of certain Ideas values.
Yeah in films in literature.
Yeah, definitely.
There is an overlap between all of these
Okay, so I think it would be useful
to look at some of the thing just
so especially moms do out.
We're safe In tune with recognizing some of
the Breadcrumbs left by secularism or liberalism because
it's operating in the darkest.
It's Johnny scenes.
It's silent It's invisible.
What are some of the breadcrumbs, right?
You know, so you see for example, lots
of maybe marriage breakdowns you were nodding when
he was talking about You know sisters Projected
a particular image.
We've got a campaign that's underway Being developed
in the background I'm sure it's equal power
Muslim woman and one of the things that
They work on our things that they're calling
kind of lies that we've been sold That
sisters have been so women have been sold
certain promises by the invisible hand of yeah
forces of secularism or liberalism modernity, what are
other things like that that imams do I
Who are dealing with people on day-to
-day basis can say, you know what?
This is a result of some of those
hidden Yeah Yeah, just just if I may
jump just to conclude this point and maybe
to move to other points Okay in order
to make this discussion fruitful, so maybe we
can conclude that we need different approaches Okay
so an approach just to maybe criticize secularism
as a theory but Along that we need
also the art activist intellectuals academics also to
provide the the masses with practical solutions for
Microsystems whether in finance in politics in in
in social values.
Okay Yeah, so Practical not very detailed micro
solutions, but maybe middle solutions micro between micro
and macro solutions so people see that Islam
is a practical way of life is not
just theoretical or because you know One of
the biggest problems.
I don't want to go to into the
impossible state while Halak city Now this theory
Okay, it has been there from before while
Halak, you know Mustafa Abdul Razak I'm sure
you know Mustafa Abdul Razak as a political
scientist Well, he said in Islam.
There is no such Yani political system and
there is no such khilafah system and then
okay that he said this in The Ninety
early nineties.
Okay, or the middle the the the middle
study the first half of the 20th century
however, those ideas developed after that and in
the Arab world in particular and that's why
maybe while Halak when he Wrote this book
his book in English in English.
That was a breakthrough But in Arabic, we
know this that there were many Quote-unquote
secular academic Muslims who were Promoting this idea
that it is impossible to implement Islam in
the 20th century It is impossible and Islam
should be confined to the personal practices of
individuals and they were very aggressive in promoting
this and even Quote-unquote some Islamists.
Yeah in the early 80s.
Yeah in the early 80s in particular without
mentioning certain names.
They were very you know They used to
believe in this and they used to advocate
this that we don't want it is impossible
to Have an Islamic state all what we
have or all the maximum we can have
at this moment is Secular a neutral state
and we all know, you know Erdogan's idea
at the ones even when Erdogan visited Morsi
may Allah Jalla Allah have Rahman him He
said to him.
Why are you scared of so scared of
secularism?
secularism can be implemented and it can have
different forms of secularism, so Anyway the motive
behind all of these ideas is that We
as so called Muslim scholars Imams and intellectuals
Islamists could not provide Islam as a solution
for practical problems not just for the spiritual
problems or Social problems marriage divorce, etc on
a personal level.
No Either we speak about Islam as a
conceptual high-level system or what a Micro
very micro detail how you go to the
toilet.
Of course, we are not belittling this Yeah,
and how you pray how you fast it
may be divorce marriage issues but in the
middle to provide Islam as a solution for
these systems I think this is a major
area.
We really need to jump in now to
prove that Islam despite the global system now,
there is no khilafa and Allah, I don't
when khilafa will come back and now there
is a reality of United Nations there are
retreat is there is Even with all the
criticism that is posed against the international law
But there are different systems and there are
different realities, yeah different context how can we
present Islam as a so practical Solution for
such problems.
I do I do agree that we need
to put a lot of work and thought
into that middle level I do you know
We should clarify that Halak is not saying,
you know that that Islamic governance is not
possible, right?
He is answering the Islamists and saying is
it possible to convert a nation-state into
an Islamic entity and he says no We
tried it doesn't work.
We need something else.
So he's not a secularist.
In fact, he's very against that.
Yeah, but but No, I just want everybody
to make sure they didn't misunderstand what you
said.
Yeah, and I completely agree One point that
just to pick up into again.
We're tying the bow on on when we
talk about presenting human rights You know because
sometimes you were talking about the need to
present things in different registers, right?
So if we're arguing Islam we might find
ourselves in a situation where we have to
present something in the language of human rights
or something like this and That is true
that happens But I would say that the
scholars and dais also have to keep in
mind that we can use it as a
tool But we have to be very aware
of the baggage that comes with that tool
Because the definition of what a human being
is Within what most people recognize as human
rights is not the human being that you
and I believe in it's not the human
being that has a rule that has Barzakh
and there's a live and there's all these
different things and that actually determines your definition
of a human being determines What rights you
think you're entitled to people you say?
Hey, I have the right to I have
the my unborn child has a right upon
me, right?
I said, what are you talking about?
You're crazy You know, this is not we're
talking materialism here Unborn child of the any
other Differences.
Yeah, I mean when it comes to listen,
there's a fundamental difference between a person who
believes in a soul and doesn't believe in
a soul Okay, the entire calculus of muscle
how changes because if you're believing that your
life ends with your grave then Everything gets
loaded into her to dunya Everything has to
happen here.
And so what's the worst possible thing that
could happen to you is you lose your
life, right?
Even that the word that's not the worst
possible thing to us the worst possible thing
to us is shift And then there's all
these different sorts of transgressions and violations that
are different We're more patient and willing to
take no No, the key thing actually when
you are talking about this, sorry to just
to make the discussion.
Is that Allah's rights?
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, so I spoke about this a lot
that yes We are talking about the human
rights first of all that needs to be
fixed Okay human rights the way It is
presented now and the way it is practiced,
etc.
But most importantly Yeah, Allah's rights.
So in a in like a non-islamic
environment, etc.
They we have to first of all highlight
that people are Misusing so-called human rights
or the it is sometimes unimplementable Unpractical because
to start with they forgot about the creator's
rights.
Yeah So in order to fix human rights,
yeah And the implementation of it, etc.
We need to recognize the creator rights first
of all Who am I in?
We were in Lali Abdullaha?
Mukhlisina lahudina Hunafa.
Yeah, well, I could buy a fina fico
Abdullah this is the mission of the prophets.
So this is one thing, okay Plus even
the way you look at the human rights
is not a balanced way because you are
giving more rights to individuals over the Jama
'a, yeah even you are conflating between pleasure
and rights and you are thinking that rights
Sorry, pleasure is right.
Yeah, but pleasure is pleasure.
In fact, you are conflating between pleasure and
real Happiness they are come they think that
okay.
Yeah when when the person For example watch
some movie etc.
And then he is happy.
This is pleasure Yeah, and this is what
human beings want know what human beings want
the real happiness they are conflating between those
so and they are also unable to balance
between rights and the duties and the responsibilities
rights in different contexts the right of Parents
over the children and the rights of children
over parents, etc, etc.
So Beside the rights of the Creator there
is like what is it a bunch of
of huge problems within human rights and that
gives us a Huge space for us as
Muslims to write about to them in order
to present Islam as I said at the
end as a civilizational Replacement.
Yeah hundred percent.
That's beautifully said and so that brings us
back to like that middle Degree or that
middle layer that we're talking about and that's
really really important that we have to articulate
and actually there's a really You know timely
opportunity to do it because when it comes
to even just the the political Scene in
the UK in the US.
There's a lot of soul-searching going on
a lot of introspection How is it we're
so weak and powerless?
How couldn't we stop?
You know and I think it's it's it's
fair to say especially for the US and
I'm guessing the UK too That the government
really doesn't function to serve the people that
the government is very disconnected from you know
So perhaps this is even something that Muslims
and Islam can fix right like in the
United States You know any Zionist entity can
buy a politician Everybody disagrees with it.
Nobody likes that in the United States whether
you're a Muslim or non-muslim Maybe this
is something that the Muslims can fix a
campaign finance, you know I've talked to university
students and I've talked about you know, one
of the things is like you were saying
the difference between individual thinking versus collective thinking
and how the Current society pushes us to
think in individualistic terms my major than my
career Then I'm going to move to wherever
the job is best Even if it's far
away from family where there's other ways of
doing it that I think you know are
more Islamically aligned that what where are you
in your family?
What if you make these decisions as a
family or even as a local community, right?
there's a big difference between well, I Think
that I want to be a doctor because
I can get paid a lot of money
and let me and my parents think it's
the best you know Job there is versus
I look around my neighborhood and we have
Muslims doing this.
We have Muslims doing that We don't have
any Muslims doing this that's collective thinking and
I think these sorts of things are on
the middle level So one of the things
that I've thought about talking about the mid
-level right how to how to Develop an
imagination in people for what Islam could guide
to I think about family structure, right?
I see as we mentioned people moving further
and further away from family members making decisions
very individualistically Rather than collectively right and this
is this is known there are books and
studies about this They used to call it
the family corporation anybody who's immigrated from another
place, right?
like my my family came to the US
from Italy and There were 13 brothers and
sisters and one's doing this job and one's
doing the other job and they live together
work together eat together Right, but then the
next generation.
Yeah.
Now everybody starts to fray everybody separates goes
their own way So, you know, these are
decisions that people make right and if they're
unaware they might be pushed in one direction,
but There's nothing stopping anybody from saying actually
I'm going to commute to university as opposed
to going to another city Right, or I'm
going to we're going to make these decisions
as a family I'm going to stay with
an extended situation extended family situation So, I
mean family dynamics and career choice in neighborhoods.
Where do you live?
Right?
I was telling I forget where we were
in Cambridge Yeah, I was telling some of
the parents asked me about advice for kids
I said it doesn't matter what you tell
them if your life decisions demonstrate that you
haven't prioritized Islam What neighborhood do you do
you live in did you choose the neighborhood
based off of the best school system?
Available and the tax bracket or did you
choose the neighborhood based off of how many
massage it in Islamic schools and things like
that?
You can talk till you're blue in the
face your decisions really show your priorities So
just know those decisions that people are making
anyway trying to get them to be intentional
collective Islamic, you know But the one is
the thing I'd like your your guidance on
the Sheikh that in the last six months
people have been very very focused on politics
Need you know with good reason, right?
And this I think is another area of
the mid-level where people are talking about
now how to build power as a community
Do we have Muslim sort of in America?
We call them political action committees super PACs
here.
It's different I forget the terminology but Donating
running candidates right for electoral then there's other
things like health services.
There's other things such as charity work There's
a lot of mid-level stuff so, I
don't know I'm interested in to your thoughts,
especially with the political realm like how does
what is a a power building sort of
Islamic Alternative look like and we're not talking
about like you said changing the whole system
We're just talking about what we have to
work with right now in front of us
the options like what do we have to
do?
Yeah, yeah Jazakallah.
Hey, see I'm Just to make it short
because I'm actually preparing to Publish something about
this, which is the road to reform You
remember we spoke about it and I delivered
number of courses about it the road to
reform In brief in brief we as Muslims
We need four steps Okay, this roadmap has
four steps.
First of all increasing the religiosity of people
the Iman of people second thing unity the
unity of the Muslim Ummah.
Yeah, and maybe some unity a level of
unity with with with non-muslims who share
the Political sentiment.
Yeah with Muslims.
So this is unity I'm not mentioning the
Adilla because it is clear the third one
is knowledge Knowledge with that Islamic knowledge or
general knowledge.
Yeah, because knowledge is light Now the fourth
thing is to be influential To be influential
and mainly to be influential in seven areas
Yeah to be effective and influential.
The first one is political level The second
one is judiciary and law the third one
is media The fourth one is economy and
finance the fifth one is social life Yeah
So to to to be effective in Anything
related to the social life Influential in for
example laws related to children laws related to
family life Yeah Laws would not be the
same as yeah there of course with between
all of these areas.
There is an overlap There is an overlap.
Yeah, but we need to be influential in
those and it is good society in general
Exactly and even with methadone laws related to
how to run the the day-to-day
life Okay, is that number five?
So this is a number.
So we said politics politics law Media Finance,
okay Social life then education Yeah, which is
as you can see big one and the
seventh one is Dawa So if we are
influential in those areas especially trying to get
into key positions where you are influencing the
Decisions any decision-making If we are whatever
we do in terms of Dawa, and we
are not influentials We cannot influence the the
how politics is running We are not influenced
the decision-making processes We will be unaffected
and you know as we talking about it
It is very sad that Muslims have especially
the Dawa now They don't have that positive
attitude towards key areas such as politics Law
Judiciary Yeah, they want to keep away from
them They don't want to get into them
for example politics in general Muslims have a
very negative attitude towards politics and Whenever they
talk about politics they talk about It in
a very negative way Look even from a
macro perspective.
I was Sometime we give this example in
India Yeah, one point something billion people.
They what is it overnumbered China recently, you
know, really?
Oh, yeah Yeah of a number China The
suffering because of its one child, yeah, no,
no, they made it two and in some
areas someone told me three Yeah in India
the Muslim population they say is 200 plus
millions around Maybe 20% of the population
Okay, some people say more Many Muslims say
no.
No, the number is far bigger than this
now the Congress the Indian Congress.
I know the number.
Okay, five four three 543 people how many
Muslims yeah are there Yeah, 40 something which
means less than 50 which means less than
10% and those Are not the Muslims
we want Okay, another example in Tanzania The
Muslim population is 60 plus Percent some people
say is more some okay 60 plus How
many what is their representation in the parliament?
30 percent Which is almost half now.
Alhamdulillah.
They have the prime minister is this sister
hijabi sister and inshallah things will improve but
generally speaking we are not interested in and
See, we have to differentiate between two things.
For example law when I say law.
Yeah Muslims have a very negative attitude when
it comes to law Yeah, and now my
fear is because of what is happening in
Gaza and the international law could not stop
this Whenever you mentioned the international law, no,
no, no stop stop.
Look what they are doing in Gaza This
is an international law that you are talking
about.
Yeah, this is something and the reality is
something else You live by international law.
I live by international law.
I have a passport I cannot travel from
this country to that country except Israel.
Yes violate so-called Israel violated the international
law because it is backed by the US
Okay, but whenever you be whenever any Muslim
country Violates the international law.
You will see the whole world is turning
against it They use the international law and
I'm not saying there is a difference between
Believing in it and using it.
We are not believing in it Okay, but
this is a reality that we are living
by and I remember Maybe in 2014 we
had a big gathering for scholars in Turkey
and There was one professor of international law.
Yeah, I remember he was Kuwaiti and He
was talking about some aspects of the international
law even the language He said we have
to be careful when we talk about Zionism
and not to conflict between Zionism and Yehud
because in Arabic there is there can be
an overlap and we have to be careful
And then he said even you know, our
actions according to should be in line with
the international law and there was 2014 there
was an attack against Gaza just before that
and you know miskeen wallah.
He had storms Okay of anger by who?
By these scholars and those scholars many of
them are academics Yeah, what are you talking
which international law etc.
And well, I felt sorry for him He's
a professor from Kuwait and then after that
I spoke to him and I said I
totally agree with you you but so anyway
See as a proof for that South Africa,
how did they?
Shake the world Never bringing the court the
case to the International Court of Justice exactly
using the international law Yeah, and then Namibia
again, it's Germany, you know now they have
a case and Germany started Germany it started
to you know Be shaken little bit.
Okay.
What is Namibia Namibia?
You know Namibia this poor African country Okay,
but they took Germany to the court, yeah,
so even some of the Gambia took Yes,
Gambia as well.
Yeah, so Yeah, just the way How it
works, you know works.
Okay.
What would you say to someone just push
back of it?
Someone might say, okay, you're calling for basically
representation more Muslims in Parliament Senate's Congress, whatever
but in order to go into those spaces
you have to Take off your Islamic, you
know, okay see We can address this but
let me say something about I'm just saying
I know I know all people say this
whenever I mention this Everywhere we talk about
this.
I say brothers in management and and leadership
You know don't think about obstacles before success
Because if you think like this, you will
never achieve anything you will never do something
I want to go there.
Oh, yeah, but Reasons like reasons why it
can't work exactly.
You're not just sitting around finding reasons why
it can't work.
Yes solution like solution oriented thing exactly solution
oriented and Goal oriented and this is how
we achieve if there is a will there
is a way Yeah, but to say oh,
no, we can't do this.
We can't do that.
Yeah, so this is This is key.
And that's why even in the West I
say to brothers for example Many of them
we have councils here in the UK Maybe
in America you have municipal.
What what do you call it to the
local authorities?
Yeah, it depends.
Yeah, there's Of Muslims or not Muslim, no,
no, no, no, you know, like for example,
what do you local government?
Yeah, City Council.
Yeah.
Yeah City Council and within the City Council
bars.
Okay.
Yeah Or committees sometimes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay for each for example here.
Our area is tower Hamlet So there are
there are local authorities Islamic Republic of town.
Yeah.
No, no That so tower so I Say
to the brothers when you work for the
council Try to get into key influential positions
where the decision-making Is is happening?
Yes Yeah, if we just work work work
work hard without getting into those areas Okay,
we want to be that effective we want
to be and we will leave it to
other people who will not work for that
they will work for their own interest not
even for the interest of the entire society
and we are not saying this because We
are looking for our interests against the interests
of others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's that's great example I mean in
addition to not Necessarily believing in things we're
making the differentiation between while we believe in
this versus we're going to use it Yes,
that's very important.
And also I think a lot of times
we want to skip to the last step
the first step When people pay attention to
politics in the u.s. They always pay
attention to the federal level first Yeah, when
there's school boards city councils, you know things
that actually affect your day-to-day life
That are very very honestly easy.
Yes to participate in yeah I remember when
I was still living in New York, you
know the Every city.
Well that city Utica was divided into wards
and the ward that the message was in
Was the fifth ward and I looked at
the previous election for how many votes would
it take to get?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah 200 votes So it'd be very very
easy just to do the math and say
okay Well, here's what now we crawl and
then we walk and then we run and
what happens when we don't do that Yeah,
when we try to fling someone up into
outer space and say we're gonna find our
Savior Yeah, and put them at the federal
level p.m. Or something like that.
They have no support.
There's no grassroots power underneath of them So
they have to compromise so they have to
listen to what the party says They have
to do whatever, you know So it's like
a pyramid like you build a pyramid by
building a wide base And then the next
step is a little less wide and the
next step is a little less likely There's
a lot of opportunities that we're just not
Kind of answers a question I had anyway
before about access versus influence Building real power.
Yeah, there's lots of things lots of and
maybe we need some advice from you shake
about how to deal with Maybe Muslims we
disagree with the political strategy, you know This
is thing of kind of kind of going
to 10 Downing Street if Todd's or White
House if stars and people kind of criticize
Those who think they're doing, you know, they
might be yeah, they're intending to do good,
but maybe doing harm But maybe like flinging
someone up to that level Whereas is you
know What you said about building actual power
and influence it's a slow long slow process
gradual process and But there's still gonna be
some people who's yeah, we disagree with this
strategy, how do we yeah see first of
all You know with this that's why I
mentioned the four steps and the first one
is religiosity One big mistake of the Reform
movements that were proposed mainly by Muslims in
in the Islamic world I haven't seen a
proposal for reform within the Western world What
do you mean by reform shape?
Yeah, and you're forming Islam building Islam.
I mean I Know what I mean is
building the Muslim ummah to become one of
the either Yeah, and one of the leading
nations.
Okay.
I have to be politically careful one of
the leading nations Okay, let me be open.
Okay, let me be open one of our
biggest problems as Globally as Muslims is we
don't have a strong Muslim state that will
defend Islam globally in all fronts We don't
have a strong Muslim state that will have
an Islamic agenda and it will defend Islam
Okay, and Muslims globally in all fronts And
so we have to rely on South Africa
Exactly exactly and you know The the world
Yeah, the one mentioned this.
Okay.
Now, I know some some many people they
they have they started to have or do
on phobia Okay Because of what is happening
recently.
I'm not talking about that He
said the world he said the world is
bigger than five and This is a true
statement Unfortunately, it did not have that much,
you know supportive from Muslim countries It the
statement and he did not have that.
Yes, why the world is just confined to
those five V to power countries.
Yeah, and none of them is a Muslim
country So our aim as Muslims is to
have a strong representation globally and If we
have that strong representation The so-called Israel
or the this occupation can't do you know?
One-tenth of what they have done to
Gaza and just the Muslim world is just
watching Okay, so This is what we want
now this it takes time to build this
But it is a process It will in
Sha Allah if we are mature enough, we
will get into that stage now While we
are going to that stage We should present
it to the Muslim ummah that we are
successful.
This is a big mistake many You know
Muslims thinkers and leaders fall into which is
they present to that victory of the Muslim
ummah means that we have re-established the
Khilafah and the world now is becoming Islamic
or we have the Khilafah like the Ottoman
Empire and etc and anything Below that is
a defeat or it doesn't mean that we
are successful.
Yeah, this is a big mistake and this
is a demotivating Discourse.
Yeah in fact, it is Counterproductive it will
paralyze us from you know progressing.
No as far as You are climbing the
mountain Towards the peak you are successful Yeah
One time you will get into the peak
Alhamdulillah But don't call yourself as far as
you are not.
Oh, it is still there.
We are Allah when am I going to?
Get their victories not happening, etc, etc.
This is wrong.
First of all demotivating as we said, but
Logically, it is wrong Shari'a wise it
is wrong, etc That's why Allah Jalla wa
ala says wa la tahinu wa la tahzanu
wa antumul a'launa in kuntum mu'mineen in
yamsaskum qara'hum faqad masal qawma qara'hum
mithruh You will go through many challenges and
as far as you are progressing and believers
you are superior so So I was saying
that we need to keep building ourselves now
Towards that process I said religiosity and unity
Now there will be some Muslims who might
disagree With this and they might think that
well is better to align yourself with the
superpowers Etc, etc.
We should be clever enough not to be
divided Yeah, and avoid talking about dividing Ideas
divisive divisive Divisive ideas with those whom we
know that we know that they have problems
with that So we don't need to do
that.
Okay, because it will divide us Even if
you see that others are working against you
be careful, but don't be Distracted by their
enmity.
Otherwise, you will find Side battles and you
will not be focused.
It's almost like just outmaneuver them Yes, yeah
rather than let them draw your attention and
then you're spending trying to exactly get distracted.
Exactly Yeah Yeah Strategies of So
and see when we talk about if you
know unity Now Many people are humble enough.
They talk about unity, but the tools for
unity It's still lip service.
Yes, it's still talk.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah At least you know, I always like
to look at the positive side You know
before we were not talking about it Now
at least we are talking about it, which
is something positive.
Yeah.
Yeah At least we want it.
Okay, and now slowly slowly more people want
to be united the tools This is a
challenge and I say that the true leaders
now the true Muslim leaders who Invent or
or produce practical tools and they act upon
them to showcase For the Muslim that listen
it can work and this is a model
and we have tried it and it is
you know It is working.
So this is the true leadership now for
the Muslim.
Yeah That's really interesting.
We were talking, you know, it's true that
a lot of the the leaders they have
more Collaboration or Relationships behind closed doors.
Yes, then they're the followers actually, right?
Yeah, and you know, it's really interesting because
the leadership sometimes is afraid of It's like
which who's leading who yes, so it's really
important that the leaders actually educate.
Yes their followers Demonstrating that you know, I
was talking with one of the brothers, you
know here yesterday just even if you go
I was joking but half joking get together
and go pick flowers together or something anything.
It doesn't have to be no No, I
actually this is this is a very effective
tool.
Yeah No, no, no, don't mention it that
it is a joke No, this is actually
if you were to ask me, but because
this discussion is not about the tools, but
actually This is one of the very effective
tools and it can be manifested in different
ways We tried it.
Yeah, and it is subhanAllah Allah Jalla wa
'ala says Allah Jalla wa'ala says Wa
laa tastawil hasanatu wala al-sayyi'a Idfa'
bil latihi ahsan What will happen?
Fa idha allathee baynaka wabaynahu What?
Adawa Ta annahu waliyun hameen And then Allah
Jalla wa'ala says what?
Wa maa yulaqqaha illa allatheena Sabaru Sabaru here
means what?
By the way, we normally present sabr in
a negative way Sabr, okay, as Nureddin The
Turkish Mashallah Yeah, when I mentioned this, he
said this is We call it in Turkey
the sabr of donkeys Okay, what you are
describing I said, yeah, so we don't have
the sabr of donkeys Where someone is beating
you up And you are just like a
donkey Okay, no, no, no Sabr, the best
Translation I found it is self-control Yeah
So wa maa yulaqqaha illa allatheena Those who
have self-control They can control Their emotions
And they are goals driven Yeah So they
can do this, which is what?
What Allah Jalla wa'ala says If there
is an enmity Yeah Yeah Respond to any
negative thing by Positive thing Which includes, go
and visit him And this is the hadith
of the Prophet Allah Jalla wa'ala said
Wajabat mahabbati li Al mutahabbina fia Wal mutazawirina
fia My mahabba is what?
Is incumbent Upon what?
Those who visit each other for my sake
Those who spend on each other For my
sake Those who love each other for my
sake So if you go to anyone of
those Who are like Opponents And you just
visit them, take a gift for them Etc
Have projects together Yeah This is a very
effective tool I am telling you I tried
it with all groups With all groups It
works perfectly So let us not belittle that
And I don't want the brothers The audience
to say No, no, no It is actually
The basis for I have a theory It
is not only Plato And those who have
theories We have also theories You should be
practical Practical theories They are philosophers Unity The
basis for unity is akhlaq Not ideology Yeah
The basis for unity Is akhlaq Yeah, not
ideology Because The And akhlaq is a comprehensive
You know In the wide And that is
why the Prophet Was focusing on akhlaq And
Allah In the very first Verses of the
Quran Either it is the second Or the
third chapter to be revealed Yeah Because this
is what Allah says You have enmity Not
he is a Muslim You have enmity Both
of you have enmity What resolves this enmity
ادفع باللتي احسد Yeah ادفع باللتي احسد Deter
that what is bad With that what is
good A gift Can solve the problem A
smile can solve the problem And sometimes We
think of Huge things to resolve The intra
differences Between the Muslim Ummah While Actually initiative
Like what you mentioned From some key dua
here and there To be together to visit
each other To I I don't want to
mention Many examples May Allah forgive us for
our shortcomings Some people who Have like clear
differences Wallahi one telephone call When they had
some challenges When they were Attacked by media
Shiekh how are you?
Are you ok?
Listen if you want anything We will support
you The whole organization will support you And
just be confident This is part of the
test we go Something like this Probably solved
And they remember this You know for the
rest of their life Yeah Yeah MashaAllah Tom's
been doing that He's been doing that kind
of stuff MashaAllah Maybe in a different country
But he's got the same That's why he's
extending his hand To me We don't have
Renewing his bayat MashaAllah And I would love
to carry on But we're taking a lot
of your time Thank you Imam Tom For
coming And thank you for watching If you
like this podcast give it a like and
a share And press subscribe and hit the
bell notification And follow us on Twitter Wherever
you're getting these podcasts Until next time Peace
be upon you