Channel: The Deen Show
The nice black that almost took me Tesla, and all the folks of Las Vegas theater on the Americana left Matthew Fordyce al and the Islam to shoot the healing impolitic, correct intervention from the Islamic law father in a negative influence on the asset class as you move toward
a slump. So Phil Murphy had a lot to
That was me back then. This is me now.
So tell me, would you would you ever think now coming from your previous history? Would you in your wildest imagination think that you'd be at an Islamic conference now in 2020, compared to being before anti Islam? You know, one of the parliament members doing everything to ban Islam. So it's quite quite a big jump there.
it was very nice to be there as well. Great honor, of course, but my publisher was was with me. And I told him Well, well, this was probably the last thing that I expected. If somebody told me five years ago, well, you'll be at the risk conference.
19 2020 I probably left very hard and slapped him in the face.
How do you so you're in Van
that's how you pronounce your name.
Yeah, yes, your your Iran. So we start with wishing each other peace, peace be with you, my brother. I set out on a call. And he's.
Yeah. So if you don't mind, let's start off with a little bit of history. Is it true? You grew up in an orthodox Protestant Christian family, you grew up reading the Bible kind of doing what every practicing Christian should do? So you were very familiar with the Bible family of Christians and you kind of were really in a strict family that kind of the others were kind of the they were they had gone astray. So you guys were really, you were not someone who was because a lot of people get labeled Okay, we're Christian, but they have they'd have no idea of the the basic tenets, they don't follow the Bible read it at all, but you are someone who was a practicing Christian.
We are we in the Netherlands, we call those people you just refer to as a cultural, true Christians. And a lot of people in the Netherlands, Netherlands are cultural Christian, but the family out from Asheville enforce. Very, very religious and practicing Legion. We were all baptized when I when we were babies. My father always read the Bible before dinner, we pray great
stuff. We went to church church, of course, and I
started my college and it was a comparative religion because I was very into religion, and especially the entity and our own denomination, of course, was was the truth. Do you find that when you it's kind of strikes a bell when you say, baptize, you know, when someone
takes the Shahada declares that there's nothing worthy of worship except the one God that created the heavens and earth. And then and Muhammad is the messenger during Jesus's time, you would have said the same thing that there's nothing worthy of worship except the one God and Jesus is the messenger. And then you would take what's called hustle.
You know, I'm talking by the glue, and then you have and then you have like the baptism where they go and just wash off. It seems like you that it reminds me of this kind of
you see this kind of similar Yeah.
Yeah. Only the thing with with the shadow force, especially when you're in conflict, it's something you do very conscious. And when it comes to acting, is most of the time especially especially with portraits, they do it to babies. So it's it's more like an initiation to the Christian Christian tradition and Emily, and it's not something you think about you just grew up and grow up in a family with a certain religion because your parents taught you to the way it is. I like what you said.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it consciously every human being has to, at one point in their life make a conscious decision to submit to their Creator, but they have to consciously submit themselves and that's what a Muslim is someone who consciously submits to the Creator of the heavens and earth and you decided to do that hamdulillah moving on. So you had from your background, being a Christian, now, you you end up ended up also being someone who was a student of comparative religion, you You also can you get
into that, at the same time, you were studying different religions.
Yeah, I studied comparative religion at a Free University in Amsterdam.
And I started it and there was very little at 911 there was my first college study. So it was quite quiet. When you look back at it, it was quite decisive moment for me where I was seeing Islam, of course, I'm from a
Christian family and in Christianity, especially the Protestant,
you know, I'm very anti Islam and not so much anti Islam, but they were more anti Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, because in Christianity, they believe that there would not be another prophet after Jesus Christ. So that's, that's one of the things that really made me biased towards Islam and of course
911 and we've got a lot of terrorist attacks in, in Europe as well, that
made it very easy for me to be very skeptical about Islam. So everything would you say that you learned about Islam was just negative? Was there anything positive that you learned about Islam?
Well, no, it was not not all negative, but
it was, it was more basic stuff. So they said, Well, what is Islam?
the articles of faith and stuff, stuff like that, who was more like when when did Islam
started? Who was Mohammed stuff like that? There was what they thought. And we, we asked for more information. Well, they said, Well, you can read this book or that book, most of the time they were from orientalist sources, or very secular sources about Islam. So it was not nothing about the truth, or truth. See, in the study, it was no theology, it was real comparative religion from an academic point of view, looking at the phenomenon of religion. So you never had a sit down one to one, did you ever visit a mosque go and sit down with an Islamic scholar?
not with a scholar, but a student, of course, you're curious when you your your main, your major is compared to
Legion. So what I did was look at truth and my own doubts. When it comes to the Christian faith, about specific dogmas, like the Trinity, the sacrifice of Christ, original sin, the big subjects, of course, and I have my doubts from I think, and it
take me six sixth till later on. And because I was studying comparative religion I started looking
for, because most pastors that
gave me it was not satisfying. It was not a complete answer. Most of you don't see like this, but read this this and it was not was never clear. At one point that, well, maybe I have to fit it into the people there. But unfortunately, I got into a mosque where the people were very
illiterate, I don't want to say but they were very closed minded. And I asked him about, about the Taliban in Afghanistan and stuff like that. And they said, Well, that's not always fun, of course, but that's, that's Sharia, so I have to deal with it. And later, I learned that a lot of people I spoke to were no scholars at all there were not even Imams, but they were just, yeah, folks who live with their and most of them were nice people but with a little. Yeah, deviated ideas.
compositionally. So you said you already had some, some problems digesting the concept of the Trinity crucifixion, you are already battling that. But you are still sticking with it. You still work and practicing Christian even though you still had those doubts, as many people do.
Yeah, of course, because that's, that's to you. You grow up in? So
at one point, I decided, well, don't think about it anymore. Because it's something that it can be very bothering you if you if if you are if you're a Christian, and if you don't, you have the feeling that you don't get the basics of your own religion. That's that's disturbing. And what I did well, I just, of course, my feelings towards Islam were still growing in a negative way. And if
and at one point, I thought most anti Islamic party because I was very
concerned about the developments in the world, world terrorism, stuff like that. Well, what's
The most anti Islamic party in the Netherlands, I'll just joined that party to fight Islam.
And I never thought about out my doubts about Christianity anymore. But because I was so into politics and so into fighting it,
I yeah, I forgot about my own questions my own religion while so you were searching not for the party that was the most just the most compassionate towards humanity and making some really great changes and bringing world justice and peace and you are looking for the party that was the most anti Islam that's the party I want to join
by doing this.
So Islam was the problem, you wanted to eradicate it, and you actually you did everything to try to banish Islam in the Islamic schools, the reading of the Quran, you try to totally ban Islam from the Netherlands, is that correct?
bills, the party I was attacked for is one of the most anti Islamic parties, probably the world because we just wanted to ban get it from the Netherlands. So we took it bit by bit. At first, we tried to forbid schools to definitely try to ban the Quran, we tried to ban immigrants are sort of entering the country, which we try to get Muslims out of the country. So we we try to present the total package, and as a solution for
Then you also had another project, it was the book project. Tell us about that it was a book that you are going to write about Islam, to unite all of the warring factions that were against Islam on this book, something like that, right?
Yeah, I 2017 I left the Dutch parliament. And I finally had the time to fulfill a long healthy diet. And I was writing an anti a. And I wanted all the things I said,
I wanted to explain it to the people and I want to give it a theoretical grounding. So people would understand why we as a party were so anti Islam.
Yeah, but it turned out
to be something else. It was not the beginning of the book, of course, was an anti Islam book. But while writing the book, the questions we just talked about, about the Trinity, for example, original sin, stuff like that, it came back just popped up again, because I saw the Islamic comic answers I got when I was writing to my Christian questions. And it felt so logical, it felt so yeah, almost like, like, like the light went on. That I got the feeling. But of course, I still didn't like Islam, because I didn't want to be associated with Islam. Because in the back of my mind, I still had the image of Islam as a terrorist religion and a religion of the anti antichrist. Because that's
the theological idea about Islam from my church was, yeah, Islam is a religion, religion of the Antichrist. So you end by seeing answers.
And, and, and not answers you see in Islam are more true. And gave gave me a feeling
more ratio, and then Christianity, and that disturbed me, because that's something I've been wanting to find out. Now you went even deeper, you started to compare you did a compelling parison, a parallel between Prophet Mohammed and everything you've heard about him being violent, and all these other misconceptions, and then you compare them to Moses in the Bible. Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, while writing, I asked a lot of ministers, but also also some Muslim scholars in the Netherlands, and in the UK and other places, is
about the different similarities between
Mohammed but it was one pastor and he told me Well, it's not a good comparison, because he said, although he wasn't a Muslim, of course, he said, Well, Mohammed had another task, then Jesus Christ discusses more like something
of the of the, of the mind that the Spirit at well, Moses was something someone who is better to be compared to Mohammed because he had also a task of raising a community starting something new in a worldly sense. So he had both both realities, the spiritual reality and the world TV and Athena said, well gee,
was more of the spiritual
side and Moses was more complete in this world just like Mohammed peace be upon him. As that task I started comparing, comparing Mohammed.
And with and when I got to, for example, the teachings
comes to war and stuff like that the guy took that subject, because I was very anti Islam. And one of the arguments, it was was, well, there are no violent they're so into war there's, I think, I thought, well, if I compare their teachings about war with the teaching, I know from the from the Bible from Moses, then I can show in an easy way that Islam is far, far more violent than, than Christianity or Judaism. But I was comparing it I was writing it down point by point by
point and I saw there's one passage in the Bible, the Old Testament where it said that when you have a fight with a certain group, they have to kill
the babies, even the grass to be eradicated from the earth, every everything. And when I compared it to the teachings about this subject, Islamic Sowell, you cannot cut trees.
Be friendly, don't fight with this. There. It's a well, it's the Islam point of view was much, much more unique compared to what I found in the Old Testament. So it opened up a little bit of money
in my heart, for Islam, and as I tried to read again, and I was writing to a Kimura research university. And he told me, Well, I know where you're coming from, and I get the point, but that's not Islam. And he said, Well, you have to read this book, try to read that book. He answered a lot of questions in person
that I had sort of gathered that helped me a lot. You gave a really good metaphor, a story about someone telling you that when you had approached them about Islam being violent about all these negative things that are associated with Islam, the person said something about the bar and you're in the barn. Can you tell us about that? needing to get out of the barn to see the house of peace? Can you share that story with us?
Yeah, yeah, that was something I got from Abdullah Kimura. It was about Islam. And he told me, well, Islam is a beautiful house. And he said, but you're not in the house, you are in a barn, you are not in the house, you are in a bar next to the house, with all the extremists, all the people who think Islam is dead or dead, but don't base their refuse and their, their concepts or not on knowledge, just screaming and just say, without knowledge. And he said, Well, would you have to do is get out of the barn, or walk into the garden of the house? And look,
there you go into the house, one of the rooms, and then you start asking. And it was it was it was a beautiful metaphor, because that's what I did. I got out of the barn. And I try to repeat everything already. revenue is also the negative stuff, but also the positive stuff. So I in the end, I got a lot of books on the table. I think I think about 200 and my wife. Nice. Well, I see, I see you change your point of view, when I look at the titles of the book, because in the beginning, it's a famous book in the Nellis Gulf endgame. Islam will take over the world and kill everybody, everybody.
And in the end, I have a book on the table it was called the misunderstood religion. So my wife, my wife said, Well, I saw your
I saw your pupils changing some of the books on the table. And it was because of the comparison that led up to Hakeem would have made it and he opened up the gates. You think a lot more people can benefit from getting out of the barn and do what you did really do their homework, their comparison and do their research from the the same way you did.
Air Force force force, I
getting your facts straight and something that's that's lacking.
Getting your facts straight, that's really important. Getting your facts straight you think people are getting are perceiving things as facts but they're actually fiction and conjuring up this Boogeyman and creating all this hysteria and fear. You think there's a deliberate attempt to do this to divide the people?
Well, in politics, there is certainly because
I know I did it myself was almost a policy. But in the end, it's, it's also,
it's also a little bit of reality because there are our terrorist attacks. So I see that now because we see a terrorist attack somewhere in Europe or whatever, in Africa or Asia, in something on the news, they
come to me say, Well, why are you doing this? And I said, we'll do anything. But I say now, you're kind of people, you are Muslim now. So
you're part of them. And why are you doing that? And it's good to explain if people don't want to listen, because most people are afraid or angry as well. And they asked me, Well, is there a terrorist attack? Yes or no? reporters? Yes. And they say those people call themselves Muslims. So there is a relationship between Islam or at least Muslims and the things we see. And that makes, that makes it very hard as well. Because, of course, it's nonsense. And if you start talking to those people, and some of them are
very willing to listen, then it's a well, you have a point if you explain how it is, but the people who do not
want at least are very eager. Your stuff from the other side. So Michael, told me will tell the people well, there's businesses and those people call themselves Muslims, you see a terrorist attack that you can say did and that, but that's it. That's the reality. And it makes it very hard nowadays to explain.
The messenger Islam, I think, yeah, but don't don't I mean, any any common set person using common sense and some basic research, when you look at it, one, Islam has nothing to do with any of if somebody is drunk, and he crashes the car, we don't blame the manufacturer. So we don't blame Islam for the action of some lunatics the same way we don't blame Christianity of some nutjob you know, mental case does something. And to statistically if you look at the data, you know, if you look at the data, Islam is not
the way of life the religion that is causing the most terror. I mean, it doesn't cause anyone to do terrible Muslims are not those statistically, that are committing the most terrorist, if you just the data shows the facts show, you know, you have more of a chance of getting killed by your furniture lightning than you do by some muslim terrorist. I mean, that's the facts on the ground. Yeah. And we do have an every we have more gun violence here, then we've had more mass shootings here in America than there are days there have been over 406. I mean, the if you look at who's doing these, I mean, these are, these are terrorist acts against innocent people, you know what I mean?
But we don't blame their religion ideology. But people seem to want to highlight some nutjob that does something and blame the whole religion doesn't make sense.
But a lot of people are not very rational, but very much.
And especially when people are afraid, it's very easy to play their mind. Mind. Because the first thing they think, Well, what about my children? What about my wife? What about myself?
And they see that and if someone said, well, there's a doing this or that they're, they're ready to go to people like this. And that's, that's something that's really, really worrying. On the other hand, I was really
anti Islam. And at a certain point, I just happened to edit I thank God. Good See?
What, what I didn't see if I can see that I can experience something like that. It's possible for anybody. Yeah. And you wouldn't I mean, on top of that, you're white, you talked about over 200 books now. Now you're starting to read not the anti Islam books. You're starting to come at it from an academic, you know, stance, subjectively open mind. And if Islam promoted violence, and you know, oppression of women and all these other common things that are said, You obviously wouldn't be here with us on the deen show today.
Well, of course, that's what I tell people, in people in my family as well. And in my mother, for example, says Well, I still don't like the fact that you became a Muslim. But I think you are sweeter as a Muslim as a Christian. So it was a very good sign and my wife told me the same thing. So that's that's something that's they're seeing it in practice. So and that's that's the only thing I can do. If people don't feel like reading. They maybe they can see it in the things you do and the things you say.
You say, that's something I tried to do. Because just like you were able to see the connection with all the messengers they came with the same message Where should one guy be morally upright and the Prophet Mohammed was the last and final messenger he said, I have not been sent except to perfect good manners, good character, and by living Islam,
volatize Muslims, they don't live Islam and then people get the wrong impression of Islam. But when we live Islam, how we should be, then people are going to actually see Islam in action, and then more people will be gravitating to it.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I, I really think that that that will happen. I see it in in the Netherlands as well there are a lot of people are very anti Islamic, of course, and, and that site is growing. But on the other hand, you see more and more comfort as well. And also people who grew up in Islamic families who didn't do anything with their religion, sometimes, especially when they get children or get a little bit older or something happened in their life, for example, car accident, they they stop, and they rethink where they are coming from. And then you see that a lot of people start practicing the religion and most of the time, those people are ending up as better
people than they were before. So that's really good and positive thing and it's not highlighted enough, I think. Yeah.
Before we conclude, tell us you have a new book that just came out tell us a little bit about this book.
Yeah, what I tried to do it it's called a positive and of course the title is with a wink wink, because it's it's a subject that of course, especially in my own political party was something they think they used when it comes to Islam to say well all people who are apostasy is a problem etc, etc. But I'm of course, I'm a pastor when it comes to Christianity, but also when it comes to my old political views. So that's, that's the explanation for the title. And what I do in the book is I the book I was writing the anti Islam book is still in that book. But I show people what happened so I it's a journey from Christianity and right wing politics, to Islam. And I try to take take the
readers with me and show them what happens with me and how I ended up up in Islam. Do you think every every politician not just every human being but every politician who has some anti Islam
feelings that they should read this book, this would this would help them?
Well, I think that especially people with very anti Islamic feelings, and most of the time they have the same arguments against Islam Islam, because in I think in, in the United States, there's a guy, Robert Spencer for of course, and Pamela Geller yeller. And people like that. And they're all those people are very good friends of yours as well. So you see, it doesn't matter if it's in United States or UK or, or the Netherlands, the people are people are very anti Islam, most of them use the same arguments. But when you look at those arguments, and you give it a good analysis, you see that most of the things they say are totally false. And they're really even orientalist people from way
back. Talk about stuff they talk about, but they given totally another explanation. And you see, you see, when you look at Internet stuff, you see how they twist it. And then it's very important that people see Well, what's happening, how, how is it possible that they say stuff like that? When we look at the sources, sources, and in the book, I gave all the arguments about the marriage with Ayesha, for example.
terrorist attacks, stuff like that. All those points I, I try to explain in the book, and I give them the sources, the Islamic sources, I gave them the way that the arguments that anti Islamic people use. And I hope, of course, that people who have those negative feelings about Islam will see how they are misled. And of course,
yeah, I would never miss that. And of course, I hope that they they don't have to be to be Muslim, all of the sudden will be nice, of course. But if they just
be a little bit more relaxed and a little bit more honest, to watch the religion, I think that would help a lot. Do you have a plan to make an audio version, you have a lot of people going towards audio books, and we see that a lot of these anti Islam these hate a lot of the hate provocateurs people have been misled in this area. If you just go and use let's say, you go to audible.com. And you type in Islam, you'll see the same people you mentioned, they've written books, not just books, but they also they got ahead of the game, and they made the audio book version because this is becoming very popular. We need we need something like this to catch up also to kind of counter this
hate. Do you have any plans to make an audio book version of this?
Well, it's certainly something I've never thought about it, to be quite honest. But I can I can talk about it with with the publisher. It's a great idea.
Yeah, and I'll be more than happy to help
Because it's so important, I'm really into audiobooks. And I'm seeing what's out there, I see a lot, a lot of this, these this hate literature out there, these hate books, hate machines, they're pumping it and we're so behind in catching up, we're taking our books and making the audio formats in it because it's becoming very popular in your car, when you're working out people like listening to the to the books, so this would be a great benefit. inshallah
with the publisher, everything that can help must be done. So, thanks. That's right. What advice do you have for people who are tuning in and we got their attention and they've also kind of come from that bias perspective. But now they're tuning into listening to you former Person of the political party anti Islam party the biggest one another lens you were trying to shut down Islam shut down Islamic schools. And now look, you're on the deen show your you are Muslim want to submit it to the will of God, you still love Jesus as a mighty messenger? You worship one guy, you're trying to be morally upright to live a righteous good life worshiping the One God? What advice do you have for
like the book,
the book is in libraries now in Holland.
Yeah, so you know how to save
three, totally something else?
How can someone from the United States read the book? Where do they where can they get?
Well, the thing I think I what persuaded me in the end was just open up a little bit and try to read not only the things you already think you know, but also the things you don't know and the things you if you if you're really honest, your sister yourself, you had a lot, a lot of questions about, about Islam, otherwise, you weren't, wouldn't be that negative about Islam. So so there's something with Islam that's bothering you. And if you're really honest, try to look at the sources of Islam. And don't read just the books of people who are already saying Islam is bad, but try to reread and try to read the books of Muslims as well, because they're very honest books. They're very critical
books, and they're in a very upright book. So it's not like it's a feel good show or some something. It's just what it is. And Islam isn't that Islam is, I think, really the last religion, and if it truly is the last religion, and if it truly is, there is a God and most of the people I know are from a Christian background, so they believe already in a God and you want to serve God in the best way there is. And of course, of course, I believe that is through Islam. And I think that most of the people who are true to themselves will find in the end, the same answer, of course, it's something I hope as well. That's it's almost it's almost impossible not to Yeah, you said something
beautiful, that I'm sure every Christian, every human being that believes in God, when you said Islam, you just kept saying, to submit your will to God, that's all to just love God with all your heart, all your mind, your body. And so that's what Islam encompasses just to, to submit to the Creator. I mean, the heaven of the heavens and earth. It's simple. That's what Islam is and to live a more upright life. I just want to ask you also, I met another amazing brother not too long ago Arno from he was he in the party also.
Yeah, he was in the party as well. But he was not in Parliament. He was a policy advisor in the party, and he is the city council. But I was important. I didn't see see him that much. Of course, I spoke to him once in a while, but it was just about coffee or
football or something like that. We never talked about religion when we were in the party.
Yeah, I met him once at the Embassy of Kuwait.
Of course, he told us and that is nice, but he lives in another side of the country. So it's not like we bumped into each other.
beautiful bureau so for those that don't know he was also someone who was anti Islam and he also did his homework at home. The law has similar story, honor to meet you honored to talk to you. Very elated to hear this beautiful story. I think he needs to get out to the world and more people would replaced this, this hate and because it's the ignorance really, that leads to the fear and then you attack what you fear and you got above the ignorance, you did your homework. You studied Islam and you came to loving it and now living it and
God will have more people from listening to your story can do the same. And this can fill their heart with more that peace which Islam causes you to that peace with your Creator and this will bring peace within yourself. Thank you so much