The Deen Show – Natural Birth – Why you need to Know with Sarah Simons – TheDeenShow #826

			It gets get even more increasingly dangerous to even have a child. Now, people are scared of it.
People don't know how to do it. I was talking to my grandmother, she was in a garden, right. And she
was wearing a long skirt. She was gardening while she was pregnant. I won't tell anyone give it to
us wrong. I recommend everyone a country that spends as much money on health care, it still does not
have very good outcome was like a major complication that you've had had. So I signed out against
medical advice, this fears pushed on you and you're only going good as a peace. Welcome to the deen
Show. I'm your host, subscribe, if you haven't already. Hit that notification bell so you can get
		

			all of our shows delivered to you. As soon as they come out. Don't forget to support us on our
Patreon page, we got a very, very important topic that we're going to be discussing today. Because
even with all of the madness, all the chaos in the world, people are still having babies. And now
people are scared to go to the hospitals. So homebirth, the topic of homebirth has come up and we
brought an expert on the show who's delivered over 1200 babies from the comfort of your home. So
this is a home birth expert. We're going to ask her on the ins and outs of it so you can be more
informed, better informed to make a better decision with our next guest. This is
		

			mentioned Henry, this is what this is this field you you specialize in. What is officially your
title. I'm a certified nurse midwife certified. I'm an RN with additional training and certification
by exam in nurse midwifery. Yeah. So now especially now it says people are scared of hospitals,
they're returning around now a lot of people are trying to stay away from hospitals, right? But then
it seems like it's growing now home birth, home birth has seen a little uptick people are nervous
about going to the hospital. There are different issues though I always tell people, it's not enough
to say you want a home birth because you want to avoid COVID. home birth is a really 150%
		

			commitment. So it's hard to jump in at the end of pregnancy. Just because something scared you at
the hospital. It's really good to spend as much of the pregnancy as possible, preparing for home
birth, how long have you been doing this? I started attending home births in 1990. As an assistant,
I went as a nurse with some a physician group that was doing home births, and then some midwife
groups. And I became a nurse midwife in 95. So how many around how many babies have 1200 1200? Yeah.
Why is it that when you mention home birth, it's it seems like it's something from the Stone Age, it
seems like something like you know, that it becomes something like weird to talk about? Well,
		

			there's a lot of fear around birth in our culture, we're somewhat protected from a we don't see it
growing up, we don't hear about it too much. And then women are not always as educated as is ideal.
They haven't really been prepared for the experience of birth. And it's kind of common in our
culture, not just in birth. But it's kind of common to defer to medical authorities. If anything is
wrong with your body. It's a very rare doctor who will say, Tell me what's going on, you're the
expert on your body. The doctors usually want to maintain the authority and be the experts. And they
are they do have training, and they do you have experience to inform people's care. But I look at my
		

			relationship with my families very much as a partnership. I'm not telling them what to do. I'm
guiding them, I'm giving them the benefit of my knowledge, but they are in the driver's seat. The
one exception being if in labor, there's some type of emergency then I will take charge of that
situation. And that's really why most people hire me, they don't want me telling them every little
thing they can do or can't do. But they do want me there making sure the process is staying healthy
and normal. So during these times, we want to give people a better clearer picture a better
understanding, because now it's on the table. It's definitely something now because people again are
		

			some are scared to go to the hospitals. Some have heard the term, some are considering it, you know,
but still kind of nervous and scared. So we want to kind of let them know what it's all about. You
know, but you just had to go back to some of your grandparents really and ask them, you know, I was
talking to my grandmother about this. And she said,
		

			she told me a story that she was in a garden, right. And she was wearing a long
		

			skirt, dress and a long dress. And she was gardening while she was pregnant and she gave birth while
she was pregnant. She pretty much she had the baby in the garden. And the baby came out into to the
her her
		

			her dress. And when I talked to her about this Yeah, it was just normal. You know, it was very
something very, very normal. But now it's become like the normal at one time become abnormal in this
fear. There's so much fear. There's a lot of fear around the pain of childbirth. No, I won't. I
won't tell anyone. It's not painful. There's no give it to us raw
		

			childbirth preparation. That is, I mean, very rarely, maybe a handful, maybe two people in all of
1200 would say they had a relatively pain free childbirth experience, but there's gonna be some
pain. But what I try and reassure people about is it's not pain, like you broke your arm. It's not
pain, like you have a kidney stone. It's normal pain. It's for purpose, pain, and it's doable. So
you have these intense sensations, they call them contractions. And you do think, yes, something
really big is happening in your body. But you get some breaks from them, you you learn to relax very
quickly between so that you have the stamina and the strength to continue and and women do it all
		

			the time. Is this is this? Are we seeing a turn in the culture now? Are we seeing that now people
are, are also insurance companies already covering this or the is it turning around reimbursement
from insurance companies, but I would say it's too early to say there's a turn in the culture, it's
still probably only about 2% of the population that wants to seek out home birth, only 2%. There's a
I don't know if you've seen this documentary, I recommend everyone who is planning on having a child
is about to have a child that they watch it I don't know, if you've seen it's called the business of
being born. It's a great documentary seen it like is brilliant. Yes, very good. For those people who
		

			haven't watched it, can you kind of give us a breakdown of what you remember of it. So Ricki Lake,
whom I only knew, as a comedian, and an actress, I didn't know she's smart. And she put together a
very good film. But she talks about the business end of things and how some of the practices in the
hospital that women take for granted, like you have to be induced for the set or the other reason,
or, you know, you have to speed up your labor, you have to, they assume that that's for health
reasons. But actually, there are some other factors that are figuring into that the hospitals are
run, to move people through because it's a for profit model. So they don't want women having three
		

			day laborers and tying up a room. And and, you know, it's a little simplistic to say that is really,
in people's minds.
		

			And physicians, you know, I don't want to denigrate any physician, they want to do the best for
their patients, but they kind of swallow some of the Kool Aid, sometimes I see that they think it's
for the best for the patient that her labor be sped up. But there can be some very serious
complications from the misuse of that technology. I think technology is wonderful. I'm grateful for
it. But it's for the rare labor and not for the every woman that comes through the doors. And so
it's misused quite frequently. And it leads to problems. And you mentioned the increasing Syrian,
right? Yes, women's bodies have not changed in the last 35 years. It's not like suddenly, women are
		

			not able to give birth vaginally. What has changed is the practice of medicine. There's a lot more
emphasis on this healthcare as a business. There are liability issues that
		

			drive practices, sometimes in a negative way.
		

			So that's what she remember talking about in the documentary that these c sections are just, I mean,
like you said, okay, it's there for a purpose in case of what would you say extreme emergency.
		

			Right, for an extreme emergency. The most common reason probably given when you're looking at
medical reports would be failure to progress. Well, failure to progress is kind of a catch all
phrase, meaning the labor didn't go as we expected, it didn't go fast enough, we thought the baby
was getting stuck. But honestly, everything is everything is changing in labor, the baby's head is
molding, the woman's pelvis is opening. So what that usually means is failure to progress was just
you didn't progress in the timeframe that we had in our heads. So it's not in our heads. Right?
Right. The the thing that people don't realize is that Syrians lead to sometimes very devastating
		

			complications. And that's part of people don't talk, they talk about infant mortality as being
higher than it should be for this country. But the maternal mortality is too high. It's really high
for this. A country that spends as much money on health care, and has really
		

			everything every bit of technology that you could wish for. It still does not have very good
outcomes. And there are a lot of countries that are that have many fewer resources that do better.
Yet that article,
		

			Article rising rate of C section is rising at an alarming rate. And there's a quote here from it.
It's very interesting. And this is what the the business of war documentary really revolves a lot
about that the business model, but this particular quote is interesting. Where I believe they're
quoting it says as an obstetrician told me said you're going to pay me more meaning for the season.
		

			You're not going to sue me, and I'll be home in an hour. So as a very convenient, less liability and
more pay.
		

			all true. Now, I would hate to say any given obstetrician has that consciously in their minds when
they're performing an operation, but it does play into the way practices unfold. Yeah. That's that's
a fact reality of life. Many people it's nice to I mean, there are a lot of great doctors out there,
there are a lot of but some gifts get overtaken with I would say the worship of money, and also the
fear of losing money because lawsuits, potential lawsuits liability. So is that with the with the C,
and C sections, it's like, you are waiting. And you mentioned the hospitals is like, you got to get
them out, get them out. And if they're not delivered at a certain time, it's money. Time is money.
		

			Time is money. And, and to be fair, the physicians do not have a very, it's not a very
		

			easy time to be an obstetrician in this country. They do have huge malpractice premiums. Yes, big
time now. And they have a lot of other expenses, that and even just loans from medical school, they
are not it's not a get rich, quick scheme. But you're right, they are concerned about not a get
rich, quick scheme. Absolutely.
		

			We've noticed from talking to people, and then they you know, the difference between also someone
who's a professional like you, you just seemed like there's more this, there's less hands on
approach. A lot of times we hear this term, I want to deliver naturally, what does that mean, when a
woman says I just wanted to live naturally,
		

			without intervention without intervention without intervention. So even you could at the most
extreme point, you could say that going to the hospital is an intervention, and it does have an
impact. Often women's labors slow down, when they go to the hospital, it's the stress of transition,
the stress of being in a strange place, actually slow down, slow down or stop completely. So then
you're in a situation where of course, they want to add some medication to your IV so that you can
get your labor back that's called the potassium, the pitocin. What is that potassium, and what is
that the Towson is the synthetic version of oxytocin, which is what a woman's body makes to cause
		

			her uterus to contract. So they put it in an IV, they started very slow, so that because people
react to it differently, so they want don't want to overstressed the baby, and then they gradually
increase it till they get a contraction pattern that will cause the baby to be born. Now, I'll tell
you a most amazing story about how much the mind affects labor. So I had a woman call me on a
Sunday, this is years ago, this baby's probably 15 or 20. She called me on a Sunday, and she said,
I'm interested in a home birth, can you take me on? And I said, Well, I don't know. Tell me a little
more. She said, Well, I should tell you, my due date was on Friday. And I said, Okay, and has your
		

			prenatal course been normal? And she said, yeah, it's been fine. I said, Okay. She said, I should
tell you that I was in labor on Friday. In fact, I was at the hospital. And I got to seven
centimeters. And they, my labor slowed down, and they wanted to break my water. And they wanted to
add pitocin to the IV. And I was uncomfortable. So I signed out against medical advice
		

			in the middle of labor, and so very brave woman. I said, Well, okay, that's interesting. I said, if
you're still pregnant tomorrow, I can't take you as a client over the phone without laying eyes on
you, or seeing your records. But bring your records to my office. We'll meet tomorrow. And we'll
see. And so she came, she brought her records, everything was in order. And I said, Well, I don't
usually do this the first visit, but would you mind if I checked your cervix? She said, Sure. She
was seven centimeters. She had been seven centimeters for three days waiting to see me. Two hours
after she left my office, she called me She said, Well, I think it's time for you to come. And I
		

			went, she had her baby in like two hours. She's had babies before she has her fourth baby, she kind
of understood the process. And she understood her body. She understood her body, but I had not
imagined it was possible to hold your labor in the middle. Because she was very uncomfortable. She
was very fearful that about what the medical professionals wanted to do. That's another complaint
that we get a lot. You know, people complain about this. Fear inducement, right? And then they just,
you're like, it seems like you're the environment usually like you're in a laboratory. And this fear
is pushed on you and you only you're going to get an infection. You have to we have to induce you.
		

			We have to design the other panic kicks in that can't be healthy, Kenny. You're very vulnerable.
You're vulnerable when you're in labor, and you're vulnerable when you're making decisions around
the health of your children. So
		

			Yes, I have heard physicians say, you will kill your baby, if you don't do what we say.
		

			How can you respond to that? You can not really, it's hard. And then if you're in the middle of
labor, you can't even barely finish a thought, much less have a conversation. So the most important
thing I think, with having an uneventful or straightforward, efficient labor, is to find a provider
that you have very good communication with. And to that you have a similar philosophy. Because there
does need to be a deep level of trust, like your you know, there could be I mean, even at home,
there are certain decisions that need to be made, like, do you want to give birth in a tub? Or do
you want to give birth on your bed? Or do you want to be on a squat? Or do you want to be lying on
		

			your side? And some, most women can make those decisions in the middle of labor, but it's nice to
have
		

			thought it through a little bit and think of what you might like, and to have somebody that's going
to support you in those choices. What's your feedback on this from watching, if someone watches that
film, the business of being born and then people through their experiences have related similar
stories, okay, so they go to the hospital, and this is the concern, because
		

			the community, let's say, or the family, they want to have more children, right. But now, at a
growing exponential rate, you see these c c sections, they're growing at an alarming rate. That's,
that's, I believe, it's like one in three or something like that. So now you're in this environment,
you're scared. And now what happens after a C section. Now it's even harder to have a natural births
the next time around, and then you and then the next time around what happened? It's like it gets
even more increasingly dangerous to even have a child is that right? Oh, many repeat c sections do
lead? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I would say
		

			you wouldn't want to have a big family if you were having all c section. But if those things were
just if they let it run its course, do you see in your experience that this would be avoided? I
mean, have have you in your 1200 births, what kind of what was like a major complication that you've
had? Have, you had to run any to get a C section? Oh, sure. We go to the hospital about one out of
10 times, and it's usually not an emergency. Usually, it's something along labor like the woman's
getting tired, she wants pain medication or more, she's getting to the point where the contractions
are getting weaker, because her body is so tired. And so then it is helpful to have those tools that
		

			the hospital has to offer, it's helpful to have pitocin, it's helpful to have pain medication, but
that should be reserved for the unusual labors. I tell women when they're having their first baby,
they can pretty much expect to lose one night's sleep. And if they're unlucky, they might lose two
night's sleep. If you start approaching the third night without sleep, then probably you need to
look at going to the hospital because I don't think people can really handled that length of time of
extreme stress. And so that's so yeah, I'm grateful for the technology to help with those kinds of
Labor's but it's not helpful when it's used on every labor, when it too much intervention, would you
		

			say is a bad thing too much, too. So we have it here in case of unique situation situations, extreme
emergencies. But in general, yeah, and and birth is not like a television show. Usually these things
unfold over time. It's not like, one second, everything's fine. And then you're saying, Oh, my gosh,
we have to go to the hospital. It's usually, okay, this is looking a little bit like maybe we'll
need to go, we have a conversation with the parents. And it's not. Now there are a few emergencies
that can happen at the last minute. And then we activate emfs, we call for an ambulance. And that
has gone very well to I mean, the paramedics around in the Chicago area, know enough about home
		

			birth. And they don't actually do that much birth themselves. And the births they do do are usually
just normal bursts that came faster than the parents expected. So they're very collegial, they want
the midwife to be on board as part of the team. And they are extremely helpful. So what what people
have talked about
		

			when they've kind of described the homebirth it was homebirth, which is more comfortable, less
stressful, comfort of your own home. They're not tied up to all these machines, Beeping Beeping. It
was much like a laboratory cell setting. The fear wasn't there. Right. It's,
		

			they have they're the hosts of the party, and they're people that they know and have invited to be
there or they're in the hospital, it's much more stream of usually shifts are coming and going.
People sometimes come in the room and look at the machinery and don't even interact with the couple.
There can be some serious disrespect and it's just yeah, it's just a
		

			I don't know why people don't go someplace to make love or to go to the bathroom like it's a normal
physiologic experience. And it should not normally need to be medicalized. We've seen some hospitals
going towards more towards midwives. Sure, because that's what women want. That's very much the
result of consumer demand. And the midwives are doing a great job in the hospital, but they're still
in an institutional setting. And they still do experience some of the same pressures that physicians
do. So they you know, they do do inductions. They
		

			don't give you another example. So between 37 and 42 weeks is a normal term pregnancy. That is,
during that time, there's a one in 1000 rate of stillbirth. Those are babies that don't make it for
some reason that can't be predicted or prevented. It might be a cord accident, it might be a problem
with the placenta, but there's not really anything to be done about it. At 42 weeks, that number is
two and 1000. So it is a small bit measurable increase. So from medical legal perspective, why would
you ever let a woman gets 42 weeks because that extra risk of stillbirth could lead to lawsuits. I
have a conversation with parents about that, especially as we get to their due date or we're
		

			starting to go past their due date. I'm like, we have some testing we can do to reassure ourselves
that the baby is still healthy and the placenta is functioning well. But I don't force people to be
induced strictly because they are 42 weeks, they might have been off on their due date by a couple
days. I really believe that babies know when to be born with a few exceptions. And there might be
like a baby that's not growing well, even that can be misinterpreted because of the imperfections of
ultrasound. So mostly, I'd say
		

			it's a parent's choice if they want to be induced at 42 weeks, if they shouldn't be pressured as
much as they are. Because induction is one of the main causes of C section. If you decide that the
baby needs to be born, and you're going to start the process of making the woman have contractions,
but it doesn't work for some reason. You're stuck. You thought you said the baby needed to be born
and if the induction isn't working, what else can you do about a C section? Okay, so help us
understand that for the rookies out there for people to understand induction and then 42 at 42
weeks, it's it's more standard practice that the baby needs to be born needs to come out. Otherwise,
		

			we need to start induction what is induction induction is putting pitocin as the pitocin tosun in
the IV, and 42 weeks is the latest. A lot of a lot of practices want to start that conversation.
Just as soon as you get past your due date, or at least by 41 weeks. They're like Oh, you're past
your due date. Let's just make this baby good. I can usually it's not it's not 100%. Right? due date
is not 100% it's pretty, it's pretty much your best guess that's the best guess, within of the women
that conceived when you can see if so only 5% of babies are born on their due date. Okay, so then so
then the induction is a pitocin is a pitocin come with side effects. Like any pharmaceutical drug?
		

			Well, sure. So the first thing that pitocin does, the strength of contractions is roughly the same
by the peak of labor, whether it's natural labor or pitocin. Labor, but the the curve to get there,
the hill to get up to the peak is steeper for pitocin. So women experienced that as more painful. So
there's a greater need for pain medication with a pitocin induction. And that can cause different
problems that can lower the woman's blood pressure can cause fetal distress, can make it hard to
push the baby out. All the side effects of anesthesia can make it harder to have a vaginal birth.
		

			The other thing is the pitocin can be too strong for the baby. It too many contractions can cause
fetal distress. So once you go down that route now, if I understood correctly, that's has a domino
effect. So exactly if it doesn't work, and we're seeing that in most cases, a lot of cases, let's
say it's not working that equal c section. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then C section equals next time you
want to have a baby more, you become high risk. It's much harder to have a vaginal birth after a C
section and then again, then that could potentially lead to another c section. And then it's like
hybrid, we won't even deliver you naturally. Right? But even even if you're planning, say you've had
		

			four c sections and so you've resigned yourself that your next baby is going to be born by C
section. That's not even safe because the uterus is so scarred. The placenta barely has a place to
implant. The placenta can actually grow through the uterus and implant in different parts of the
body. It can cause horrible side effects. What about when the baby's breached? Usually that equals,
there have been some good doctors who can kind of manipulate Can you do it? Do you also work with a
breach or you go is that automatically equal most cases see *
		

			That is a thing that has changed over the last 30 years, there used to be many doctors who would
deliver a vaginal breech baby, it is a slightly higher risk birth.
		

			I do recommend that people find a provider that is comfortable and experienced in breech. But it's
not being taught in medical schools, it's, it used to be considered a variation of normal. It used
to be just some babies come that way. And now, people are scared of it. People don't know how to do
it. What's the wisdom behind we're also hearing a lot from people who look into this and that
leaving when the baby comes out, usually they'll * the baby and they'll give him all the shots
and put the stuff that burns in their eye and cut the cord. But how does it work with homework is it
whereas sometimes even heard that is there's some science behind this, we're leaving the umbilical
		

			cord, and
		

			absolutely called,
		

			is delayed or physiologic cord clamping. I mean, delayed can be
		

			like someone will say they're delaying cord clamping, if they wait 30 cord clamping that's what is
great. But I wait until the cord has stopped pulsing. So the baby gets all of the it's a third of
its blood volume in the placenta gets stem cells, red blood cells, white blood cells, a lot of good
stuff still got of stuff going through the cord and the baby gets oxygen that's still coming through
the core. So it helps enormously with that transition to air breathing, which all babies have to
make they come out they've been getting oxygen through the cord. And now they have to expand their
lungs and take a breath. And if there's a little delay with that, if there's a problem with that,
		

			it's wonderful to have that cord. Still pulsing and helping that baby transition the skin to skin
with the mother helps the baby bonding. It's not even just bonding isn't the baby doesn't even know
it's a separate person from the mother. So its physiological processes are so tied up with the
mother, it responds to her heartbeat and her breathing noises. And it's been hearing all of that in
utero. So putting the baby I've seen a baby that looked a little bit like maybe a little lamp a
little bit blue wasn't like perfectly transitioning, put it on the mother's chest and it picks up
and it starts doing its thing. And it's it's quite amazing. But it's quite under appreciated in the
		

			hospital because they'd have a different physical setup, if a baby needs a little help. They're not
prepared to do a resuscitation at the bedside. So that's where that clamping the cord and rushing
the baby across the room comes from because they have a warming table where they have a team of
doctors around. And I actually find my recessive recessive patients go very well, just simply with
me and my assistant at home at the bedside with cord intact. So pretty much at home home birth is
pretty much just more laid back. It is more laid back. because really we only need to intervene very
occasionally. Yeah. And you just kind of let it just run its course. Exactly. It's pretty beautiful
		

			thing to see. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem complicated at all. I mean, I mean, obviously the pain,
everything that goes through it, but just the process. It just seems that complicated, more natural
way. And we've been doing this for 1000s of years. All over the world, women assist women in
childbirth, and they don't have a lot of degrees. They just have that hands on experience. And it
goes very well for the most part. Yeah. So in our last few minutes, what advice would you have? For
someone who knows?
		

			They're thinking about it because they're scared to go to the hospital because of everything that's
going on. They've heard the term home birth, they mentioned it their family's like, Are you crazy?
What are you talking about? But they're considering it? You know, what, what advice would you give
to someone like that people out there? I think being comfortable with your provider is important. So
interviewing different home birth providers. I think that film you mentioned is very helpful the
business of being born, the business of being born, that's a must watch, Would you say that's a must
watch the business of being born and just to trust your body and know that you come from a long line
		

			of women who have given birth and until recently saved the last few generations, mostly vaginally
and mostly without much assistance. So
		

			yeah, I think just confidence and and knowledge educating yourself a good childbirth classes, a good
thing to do, and that's one of the beautiful things because fear can just it can be crippling, you
know, just talking to you. I mean,
		

			and talking to others, it just just seems much more peaceful. Just
		

			the whole process the hospitals just seems like it's that fear just something that
		

			many people complain about and less so with the midwives in that but this do you think the system is
somebody needs to be some some modifications is broken or you know,
		

			Well, I think that it's it's very complicated because, right, our healthcare system is broken. And
it's very dominated by pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies. And so hospital
administrators as well. There's the risk management, people don't want you to step outside a certain
line, because what if, what if, what if, and they're afraid about lawsuits. So this, I think single
payer health care would help a lot, if we had simplified that. And also, if we had a greater social
safety net for people that do need some special care, like, say you had a baby that had a birth
injury and needed some sort of long term care, who could pay for that people have to sue, but if we
		

			had a more of a safety net on a global level, then that would be
		

			less incentive to sue. You know, this is gonna sound a little political, but Cuba has very good
outcomes for infant mortality, maternal mortality, and they really do a low tech now they do do
hospital births, mostly. But they are family practice doctors attending Cuba, Michael Moore did a
documentary about right yeah, he mentioned it I think in sicko Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's what
it was. Yeah, yeah. sicko was another great to see Yeah. Okay. So that's a whole different topic.
We're out of time but this the the healthcare Big Pharma and all that, but uh, would that would you
say like when you look at the data, because we prescribe the most drugs give the most shots, but we
		

			still and we have the highest level of infant mortality of sick baby Sick Kids, sick adults. I mean,
this is another whole nother discussion that wraps around. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. If
somebody wanted to, if they're in the Chicago area in Illinois, that's where you're based. That's
why they wanted to give you a ring. How can they look you up? My practice is called New Life
midwifery. What is it called New Life midwifery. And I have a Facebook page New Life midwifery. And
I also have a phone number 773-573-9100. So but there are other providers and I do encourage people
to interview around because a lot of the success of homebirth is based on the relationship so you
		

			want to get someone you click with and communicate well with or you might get some fans of the deen
show giving you a ring.
		

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