Tariq Ramadan – Islamic Ethics How we Know Right and Wrong #6B
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AI: Transcript ©
Okay.
How do you see
Muslim in Muslim majority countries from a psychological
perspective?
The same as we are looking at ourselves,
there are lots of
elements
or things that we know we are dealing
with and there are crises
and we need to try to solve the
problem. So we need to have the right
way of dealing with this. In Muslim majority
countries,
we cannot deny that there are lots of
things that,
we are talking about it this morning, but
lots of things that are, you know, state
of denial,
taboos. We don't speak about things. There are
you know,
this we have to deal with it on
a psychological we need to understand
that there are many things in the Asian
cultures,
in the Arabic cultures,
that are profoundly
disturbing from a psychological viewpoint.
Of course, and you cannot deny this. We
have a I don't know if you heard
about the crisis of an Algerian
writer, a journalist
explaining what happened
in Germany,
you know, with this
* and people, the immigrants who did what
they did in and he was saying that's
the reality of what is happening in Muslim
majority countries because all these people, all these
men are frustrated.
So there is a great deal of frustration.
So this is what is happening.
So he was using this against Islam and
the Islamic teaching and the Arab culture.
So his conclusion
is
problematic.
But the assessment is right.
So there is a great there are attitudes
in our countries and Asian countries towards women,
towards communication, the lack of
communication,
the lack of communication within the family,
the roles that have been
changed
and even
troubled in a way which is distracted,
I think that we have to deal with
this. So
we have to stop idealizing
the Arabic
or the Asian cultures by looking at the
way it
is, and also to be to face, you
know, superstitions the way it should be.
So I would say we have to be
critical. And
I would say in the name of Islam
to be able to look at these problems
the way they are and how do we
have to deal with it.
And, to to start with refusing the state
of denial when it comes to this,
because this is just
it's it's very
you know,
when you go to the global side you
were laughing when I said that. But to
say, for example,
people in the South very often,
they like the West
as much as they reject it,
and they disliked the fact that they like
it.
This has an impact on psychology.
And I can tell you when I have
scholars coming from the most majority countries with
Wassa, the way they look at
the Wassa intellect, it's much more
respectful,
or they, you know, they value their knowledge
in a way which is:
there is a problem here.
So
so it has an impact on on the
way you deal with your own knowledge in
a way. It's either you
you respect them
a lot,
or you
are suspicious,
or you try to convert them.
But at the end, it's not an objective
discussion.
So at all the level, I think that
we have to deal with this in a
very deep way,
and and not and never to idealize what
is happening in Muslim majority countries.
In all the capitals,
all the capitals
in Africa and Asia and the Arab world,
just to speak about the capitals, The tensions,
the psychological crisis are huge.
You know,
the figures that we have and things that
are said are very disturbing about, for example,
the rate of homosexuality
in Saudi Arabia.
Nobody is talking about that.
It's it's it's it's deep. It's problematic.
And they all know this.
I go often to Qatar.
Gays and lesbians
in Qatar,
to the point that what they are now
doing is closing
the toilets
for the young girls not to meet within
the toilets in some schools.
Nobody's talking about that.
What does it mean?
A state of denial.
That there is a problem in the way
we are tackling the issue,
in the way, in fact,
you have the means
to bring the world
within, and we are happy to show that
we are developed.
And at the same time, we have a
state of denial about what impact all these
means
have on the
collective psychology within the society.
So when you have some movies coming from
the West,
and then
you are not equipped,
and then you say, we need to
teach more Koran
It's not going to solve this problem.
We have some young people in the West
who knows half of the Koran. If you
look at the way they are dealing outside
in the streets, it's just
people who have nothing to do with the
ethical
dimension. So I think that the formalism
and this
appearance that we have, the looking good but
in fact having deep crisis
So they keep on repeating homosexuality,
it's, to be condemned? Yes. But what are
you doing to educate and to help the
people to be protected,
and especially the girls
in some Gulf states? Not only, by the
way, men and women.
And
when you visit
some of these countries, they all know about
it,
because they are taking decisions in schools about
it.
So it means that about about this,
whatever is your take on this, at least
there should be
a recognition that we need to talk about
this.
And it's not going to be by condemnation.
I don't like this business of you condemn.
I'm going to surprise you.
I am saying I condemn, from an Islamic
viewpoint, homosexuality.
I don't condemn homosexuals,
if you see the difference. So it's a
moral stance on what homosexuality is all about.
I say: From an Islamic perspective, this is
not.
But to go and to condemn the people?
No. I may disagree with you, but I
know what it means to be a human
being. And
when now it comes with young teenagers
that are completely in a situation where they
are lost within the society, that's the problem:
what are we providing? What are we doing?'
So I would say that our take on
this is to be constructively
critical
from a psychological perspective.
In your
question about what is the
once again,
whatever is the situation between 2 patients, one
have been drinking,
and at the end,
the ethical decision is, as I said in
all the situation, is to balance the two
options and to see where we stand.
But I wouldn't go for anything which has
to do a moral condemnation
of a lifestyle
in order to give the liver for somebody
else. I don't think that this is going
to happen.
So that that
the the problem here is not a moral
condemnation, it's just assessing the potentiality
and the options, and this has to be
done by it could be done by a
Muslim
physician or by a non Muslim or somebody
who has who is an atheist or having
another
philosophical or religious background. It's up to him
or her.
But in this, it's always a question of
balancing and assessing
the,
two options that you have, or more options.
But
I would
because the way you are putting it, it
could have been understood that there is a
moral No, it's not alcohol, because every change
is completely So you just take into account
the is he ready to change his life?
Did he get it, that now he has
to stop or she has to stop? This
also could be something which is we have
to be careful not to condemn the future
of somebody because we know about his past
or her past.
Do I have an alternative
model based on ethics?
This was not my point.
I kept on repeating since we started yesterday
that I don't have
a model.
What I'm saying is that through our
ethical approach,
we can provide
the current
Islamic thought
with new approaches and new methodologies. This is
what I'm trying to do
by saying, if we start with the ethical
goals, we try to reconcile
the different sciences,
try
to make a link, a clear link between
the text and the context,
and go through a transdisciplinary
approach.
This could be helpful to come with
a holistic,
you were saying, a holistic approach.
That's it. This is what I am Now
what you are saying is: but it means
that we have to reassess
what is taught in our
Islamic institutions?
Oh,
yes. Oh, yes.
I think that we have to get rid
of Al Azhar the way it is.
We have to get rid of Omar Khorra
the way it is.
I think that we need a revolution
in the educational field,
because in fact what we have there
is exactly the opposite of what is needed.
We have scholars who are repeating.
We need scholars who are starting to think
and and to to to deal with the
complexity.
And we know that, but the only thing
is that and you know the problem is
that even even you in this room,
sometimes in the way you look at the
scholars,
when you have scholars coming with,
you know, an Azhar,
and when he or she speaks Arabic,
It's only Arabic.
It's a language. It's a means. It's a
vehicle.
It doesn't mean that he knows or she
knows.
We have a complex of an inferiority complex
in the West. If they are coming with
from some institutions, we think that they are
equipped.
And it's a time of idealizing
who they are, and especially also when they
are converts, Masha'Allah.
And and moreover,
he or she is converts.
That's I'm sorry. I'm saying, as I see
it, is rubbish and dangerous
because it's not helping us,
And especially of some of them in the
way they went to the Islamic institutions and
they come with this education,
at the end they are repeating
and sometimes very traditional
in the way they are. There is no
construction, no input.
I'm not talking about the converts. I'm talking
about all the scholars that are trained there.
So I have lots of respect for the
people who are taking time
to educate themselves,
but I don't want us to idealize them.
So so that's also
something which is important in the way.
And even here,
the only success of this seminar is not
for you to think like me.
It's to think without me,
it's to think
otherwise, and even to think
against me.
If I make you react against me by
pushing you to go and to get more
knowledge in order to come with arguments,
it's a success.
It's not for you to repeat what I'm
saying. What is the point?
Just I'm not educating
parrots.
That's not the point.
We are trying to have this critical discussion
here,
and never to idealize anybody in the whole
process.
The holistic approach, what we were saying,
yes, of course, this is all what I
have been doing. It's the holistic approach. And
in in
depending on the field that you have, you
start with the field and then you have
you try to have this holistic approach. You
cannot have a holistic approach without the center.
It depends on what you are talking about.
But when it comes, for example,
with psychology and education,
everything that is helping you to
build
a human personality,
a personality,
you have to take into account everything.
So it has to do with the family.
It has to do with the school. It
has to do with psychology. It has to
do with
communication. It has to do with the surrounding
culture.
This is what we need. This is really
what
we we we need. And and for us
as Muslims,
you know, the fact
that
al Iman is at the center,
it's not to negate the periphery of our
human construction,
which is what the mistake that we are
doing. Iman is everything, so we end up
talking only about this.
Islam is everything, we end up talking about
Islam. But no, Islam is everything in the
way it irradiates
everything. So you need to be equipped at
the periphery with everything.
So,
the way you translate your spirituality
with arts, for example.
You know there is a great deal of
therapy with art.
Of course,
creativity
is a way you are healing.
That's very important.
This imagination,
what do we do sometimes with, you know,
young
teenagers and what was done, for example, in
Gaza,
just after they were bombarded?
Draw,
express,
make it
getting out of yourself,
these tensions
through your imagination.
That's very important.
This has to do with therapy. It has
to do So why we don't think about
this as Muslims, it's as if, oh, it's
not really Islamic,
Because we are
reducing Islam to something which is,
fragmented.
Why? Holistic approach. But holistic approach in the
way you are putting it, in the way
I was putting it this morning,
not in the way, people are talking about
it in
politics, for example. It's a comprehensive approach.
About the mortgage.
So
just to make it simple
and clear:
this was a huge discussion among the scholars.
And you have one institution,
Majesel
So it's the European
Council For
Research and FAWA who
said:
It was not a unanimous
position. 2 of them said no,
but the great majority, meaning more than 20
I think,
they were saying that if you live in
the West
and you are dealing with the economic system,
and you want in a state of necessity,
in a state of necessity,
to buy a house, to protect yourself and
your family, for example in a good
environment,
protect and not to put your kids in
an environment where there is no school, and
the environment is poor, and all this. In
a state of necessity,
you can take a mortgage even with interests,
and this is permissible.
Why? Because
it's Darula
or Hajja, you are in need and it's
imperative,
but it's in the situation of necessity.
Some others said
no. And this was perceived as Fekal Appalillade.
But what I said this morning is also
important, is that the same council
said,
relying on
said this relying on Abu Hanifa, who was
saying in a situation where you are not
in a Muslim majority country. But the same
council was saying, we are no longer in
Dar al Harb.
So they said, we are not in Dar
el Harb, but they are using a fatwa,
an old fatwa,
by saying you can't do it.
That's the problem.
So,
you can now
consider
that
wherever you are today,
the economic system is so,
it's so pervasive
everywhere that in fact you have to deal
with it. So you need to find a
way.
So that's an answer on this by saying
it's possible,
but you have to assess
the necessity and what you are trying to
do
in a sincere way.
What are your goals? What is your intention?
To secure money and
goods, or to think about
protecting a family and a project?
And this could be understandable
in a way, as I was telling you,
in South Africa the Muslims have a very
specific status in history
because they protected their goods. For example,
look at, you know what is happening to
Muslims in France. The situation is quite bad
in many ways.
The Muslims in Iranian Island are not at
all treated the same way. You know why?
Because they have an economic
presence.
And the economic presence is coming from where?
Because they are Hanafi.
And it's the Hanafi school
which told them you can protect your goods.
So they are powerful. No one is going
to tell them, no headscarf in school
or no symmetry, we have a secular way
of dealing with the dead.
They don't have this problem
in the Reunion Island. And the minister who
was, again, the headscarf
in the Metropole, in Paris,
visited the Reunion Island and took some pictures
with
young girls with the headscarf
in schools.
So money is directing policies.
So so
I'm also saying that for us, protecting
our presence
is also something that could be we have
to take this in to to to keep
it in mind and to take it into
account.
And
what you are saying about, yes, for the
pensions and holders,
you as citizens, you have the right to
say I want it to be used in
such a way, in an ethical way. So
you can do this. You're not going to
find the halal way of using it, but
as we were talking about, you can also
try to make it be used in an
ethical way, which is your responsibility
not to let the people use the money
and to put it in things which are
completely against your morality. So this is a
right.
I don't know. I think that even in
Britain it's a right because in many countries
it is.
So so could you could you tell them
why they have to put it, or shall
you tell them why they don't have to
put it?
Not to be put.
Okay. It's
so many years ago.
Okay.
So so if you have a way to
say why it should go, it might be
better.
And if you have now to click why
it shouldn't go, you can't just say that.
I don't know. I have to talk.
Well, I don't know. If I thought because
in, in, Switzerland you can say where you
want it to be done, how you want
it to be used.
You direct them not by not saying where,
but by saying where, not
by the negation
or
the negative thing.
About the women's participation,
that's a good question. And once again, if
you come to the scholars,
some are saying
we should never hear your voice,
because Saud al Mar'a
Awra,
you cannot read the Koran,
you cannot sing,
You should not be visible.
Now
there is something that is the starting point.
For me, this position is not the right
one, and I don't have a problem with
the and I think that in Islam,
if you look at the whole picture,
the voice of the woman reading the Koran
or even singing, that's not a problem.
The question in everything which has to do
with arts
and culture has to do with your own
personal intention.
What and this, by the way, it's not
for women only, it's for men and women.
What are you trying to achieve?
Who do you want to be in the
whole business, to be perceived you or to
serve something which is bigger than you? So
this is essential.
If you are an artist to serve art,
it's good. If you are an artist to
be visible, and it has to do with
proud and sometimes arrogance in the world. No,
Yusuf Islam, he said: I needed to stop
because
the way I was considered in this world
was per se corrupt
because he was an artist, he was an
idol, and say, how how how do you
how can you pray Allah when you are
in such a situation? So he had to
distance himself.
So entering in this means that it's possible
for all of us checking
our intention.
Now, there is also something which is for
men and women,
which is anything which in this world has
to do with modesty.
And once again, there are steps in modesty,
but there are at least
4 features that are important for men and
women at the same time when it is
said, for example,
and get it right, in the way you
express yourself and the way you are,
in the world of arts,
it's when you say
not tied to the body, not transparent
discrete meaning that you are
and at the same time beautiful.
And I keep on repeating the 4th one
because I was in Africa
and I was repeating what the scholars were
saying and what through my study I came
to say the three main conditions
to modesty.
And by the way, I was not starting
with this. I say to come to the
physical modesty you need to understand that there
is
intellectual modesty
and
psychological modesty and then
physical modesty. It's not only the physical, the
visible. Intellectual modesty for me is the starting
point.
If
you don't have an intellectual modesty and you
just are obsessed with the visibility, it's a
problem.
So,
modesty, it's everywhere
in the way we deal
with God and with human beings.
But having said that,
I was saying these three things
and a sheikh
from
Ivory Coast
was there. He smiled and said: no, there
is something missing
in your features.
And he said beauty.
And beauty means in the way you are
in public you should you whatever is you
take you wear
the headscarf, you don't wear it, you have
not only the right, but it's necessary in
psychological terms to feel good.
So, you know, being a practicing Muslim doesn't
mean that you have to feel ugly and
that this is the you are so much
showing that you are for God, that you
have nothing to do with humanity.
Rubbish.
That's not going to work. So these 4
dimensions are here. And then when you are
involved in arts,
check your intention,
check the way you deal with your own
personal modesty because this is something which is
very important, and you know
how
in arts and in entertainment it's played around.
And then you go with this intention,
with these goals when it comes to comedy,
for example, and things.
Some are saying, you know, drama, and this
is, this is haram. That's I think that
what makes it haram is the substance, the
way you do it, and the intention that
are driving you.
But if this has to do with
elevation,
education,
sound entertainment
you know, sometimes you have to say to
Muslim,
to smile and to laugh is halal.
That feel good.
Relax. Relax. Yeah. Just things like this.
Who told you that?
That's
I don't know. That's my check.
So you are creative in inventing a Mahram?
Has inspired me to do things in my
life. And I'm traveling and I'm giving talks
to people. But I know deep in my
mind, I'm just saying, you Allah. I'm
not supposed to do that. But my healing
and my creativity
tells me to do that because I want
that's me. That's who I'm
That's good. But once again, what you are
saying, I'm just going to extract from what
you are saying something that I would
invite you to do
when
you had one opinion coming from scholars, and
you end up thinking it's the only one?
This is one opinion among many others.
And there is one opinion saying you cannot
travel more than 3 days or you cannot
travel without the maharam.
What was said by many scholars and this
is not new, it's very old that the
question is not about traveling with the Mahram.
It's the security
within the travel.
So if you leave
a place and you go to another place,
and there is security during the thing,
you can go for it, and it's not
a problem, To the point that even in
this, when it comes to the pilgrimage, even
Saudi Arabia reassessed the fact that you cannot
only go with a man, you can go
with a group of women, because the question
is about security. So
the literal understanding was
not without a mahram.
The understanding
of the goal of
the statement was, it's about security.
Women
should be safe in their travels. So now
if with the means that we have now,
the way you can travel, you're not doing
something
for many scholars.
That's not a problem.
I have my daughter,
she traveled
on her own, and the first one who
is going to come to tell me what's
this haram,
I think he needs
a new education.
But I'm serious about this. That's [Student: You're
allowing ladies to be creative
people.] Sorry? [Student: Because we want to be
creative sometimes.] Ma'am, I'm not sure. I don't
see the link between traveling and being creative.
You can stay here and being creative.
Like opportunity
But but what you are saying, what you
are doing, the fact that you are giving
talks, that you are traveling,
nothing in what you are doing is against
the Islamic principle.
You have some maybe scholars who are going
to say: You can't do this. But this
is one opinion, and I can tell you
today this opinion is a minority opinion.
That's it. So be careful. This is an
advice to all of you:
don't repeat without checking. Now you have the
means
and the the the intellect and the books
where you can check this. At least have
you know, when the people are coming to
me and say music is haram, say,
that's that's ignorance about so many others. You
know, in my training, when I wanted to
get the Ijazah in firq,
what when I was in Egypt, one of
my teachers, and I wanted this, this was
not studied and not taught in Al Azhar.
I spent hours with 1 chair taking
64
issues where the scholars were disagreeing.
64.
Why? I wanted to know how they come
to this.
How? What are the arguments?
And then you go out and you see
people haram.
He has 2
weeks of study, and he's saying haram. He
doesn't know. All scholars who are trained in
Hanafi,
or in the Shafi'i,
or in the Hanbali, they come with one
opinion
from within the school, while within the school
there are many opinions, and they say, This
is Islamic. No, this is not. This is
one opinion. And,
you know, for example, about all this discussion
about is it possible for a woman to
pray
in front of men or to be an
imam?
Imam is Shef
El Netaimiyyah is saying she can lead the
prayer because of the gestures that she has
to do. She is on the back, but
she's leading the prayer.
And some are saying it's possible. In our
tradition, you know the problem that we have?
We are ignorant of our own tradition.
For me, this discussion about leading the prayer
is not the essential crisis that we have.
I wouldn't start with this.
There is no real authority with that.
This is just misleading us. I wouldn't start
with that. But in many issues that you
have here, stop repeating. Go and check.
Go and check. Don't let the people direct
you in a way. And it's not only
for men, for women. It's also for men
sometimes. It's the way that we are dealing
with it. I think
it's, it's it's it's dangerous.
Yes. Your question about
this
could happen, it is happening, and especially you
live in
a society where
the people are not,
majority Muslims, even if you are in in
Muslim majority countries.
What you have to do
is, when it comes to,
the people,
all your attitude should be clear as to
your profession and the skills and the competence.
But at the end,
what
the people are asking
with their
way of life and their principles
is their business, is not yours. You're not
responsible.
What you can do is just:
are you sure that this is the right
medication, this is the right
drug for what they are asking? So you
have to be professional
and what you have to do is just
to stand by the
requirement of your profession.
This is what you have to do. Now
in Muslim majority countries, sometimes
it's more difficult than and I had some
doctors that are dealing as Muslims with Muslims
doing things that were against Islam.
So this is where
you don't open the discussion about morality,
but your way of dealing with, your way
of communicating,
the way that you always
leave the door open if they have questions.
This is something that sometimes is needed. Sometimes
they will question and they will come to
you with the question
why you haven't done anything. And this is
where you can just communicate that your
main
ethical ground is
you do what you should do in the
light of your professional
requirements,
not your moral
positioning.
That's the way it should be
because this is the way you have to
deal with people. You cannot
even when it comes
to the way they are going
to live their life,
this is why you as a Muslim,
you are consistent with
the
conditions
and the requirements of your profession,
not the moral judgment of the behavior of
the others.
You cannot do that.
It's outside the limits of your profession.
Now, I will tell you something.
The way you
practice, the way you translate this in your
attitude,
that is very important.
The way the people are coming to you
is not only asking you about your skills,
but you should see something of your personality.
That's essential.
So the way you welcome, your kindness, your
understanding,
your readiness to listen.
The problem with physicians today is that they
don't have time.
10 minutes.
10 minutes to do what? Give me the
drug.
No. To take time to be you know,
we have fast food and and and fast,
you know that. That's the reality.
Your question. That's
in fact,
there are fields and sciences where it's easier
because it's perceived as less risky as to
the consequences.
So when it comes to medical science, there
is no other way than to take from
other sciences because you have to deal with
it. And this is
experimental
objective knowledge,
which is not exactly the same with human
sciences, where you have a great deal of
the ideology
and the whole thing is constructed through human
agency, and at least it's perceived as such.
So your when you deal with psychology, we
deal with theories and we deal with philosophies,
and sometimes it's perceived as being very much
against
the religious framework.
So,
it's true that there are some sciences
with which you better
be cautious
in the way you deal with them.
The problem is the other way around. I
think that they are not enough cautious with
what is called experimental sciences and objective sciences.
They take it as it is and say,
oh, no. This is, objective. While it's strong,
it's completely wrong. As I was saying, there
is no objective science, or there is no
science
dealing only with objectivity.
Has to do with ideology and it has
to do with this,
framework
or this connection and transdisciplinary
approach that is needed.
So, and this is where,
in the center, we are not only using
scientists to question the scholars of the text,
but we want the scholars of the text
to question the scientists about their
some of their postulates
and some of their arguments about, for example,
some definitions
of
the human,
you know, person, the,
integrity,
justice, health, and all this. So these are
to be
the terminology should be questioned as well.
About,
the role of women's color.
Where are you? Here.
You know, it's at different levels.
The first level for me is that I
really think, and I wrote this, this was,
I don't know, 15 years years ago, and
I keep on repeating this.
That I really think that,
women
in within
Islamic studies are going to have
an
impact, and they can bring
input which is
new in that field.
Mainly,
what we call the Islamic tradition, a Turath
al Islami,
it's mainly a male production.
And many scholars, they don't agree. They think
you be a man or a woman, it's
going to be the same. I don't agree.
Sensitivity are not the is not the same.
The way you deal with your own culture
is not the same. Your priorities are not
the same, and your brain is not the
same.
It's not going to work the same way.
So I would say that we need that.
Now, within
the community today,
we need the,
men and women.
But we need them also to be involved
in the in
and to
to be vocal.
And I I, once again, just for men
to come and to speak about women's issues,
it's still a man who is talking.
And the way, for example, the more convincing
way of talking about this is to talk
from within, with your own experience.
So
we need institutions where women are involved.
We need education.
We need
production. We need writings.
And not to be, you know,
Akram Nadwey, Sheikh Nadwey.
He wrote this book about El Muhadde Thad,
and that's very good. But this is from
the past in the traditional
way. Now we need to be able to
say, where are the contemporary,
Muslim women who are doing something and providing
something
based on the tradition?
So,
yes,
I support this, and I think that this
is
important.
That's a good question when you are saying,
at the end of the day,
when it comes to professionalism and visual art,
with all what they are producing,
it's going to be very difficult
to compete.
So this is why I'm saying,
To compete to achieve what?
This is why I think that we should
not
try to compete with them.
Why? Because
it's a lost battle.
Because in the visual art, or even in
the entertainment,
they are
completely using what we know is in is
within us, which is the emotional
attraction
and the desires and the instincts.
You're not going to win
with,
machinery that is using everything that is nurturing
the instinct and the desires that we know
we have to resist. So it means that
we have to do something else.
And our success
is not by competing to get 1,000,000 versus
1,000,000.
It's just to try to have something which
is an alternative way of dealing with odds,
knowing
that
this trend,
it's in itself
problematic and there are
tensions and crises in this successful
way of dealing with inter they are making
money, but they are destroying lives.
We don't want to make money, but we
want to revive
the spiritual life. So I'm not going to
put this into
competing. It's something it's another mindset
which has to do with the overall thing,
which is how. And you can see that
today
in the West,
so many
people, they are looking for something else. There
is a crisis, a psychological crisis,
an aesthetical
crisis.
Oops.
That's not the
No, but that's fine. That's fine.
So I'm sorry. Say, I'm talking to the,
so the laptop?
Adjust on the it's okay.
So
what
was I saying? Are you following? No,
but, you know how many people so many
people are looking for something else. They are
attracted also by other ways of expression, other
expression.
And look at
by the way, if we were more creative,
you know what are the books that are
the more read
in the West today?
It's,
Sufi books.
It
means that there is a quest for meaning.
There's a quest here. Why don't we think
about art as the translation of a quest
with beauty?
Of course, you will have art
dealing with the human instincts.
We are dealing with something else.
We are dealing with human elevation,
human
something which is, look at this,
listen to this.
God
Hababa ilaykum
makes you love this faith and he beautified
it in your heart.
Beauty in your heart.
So we know that if we think about
we are creative,
I don't want to go to
to competition
in this,
because as you are saying,
we are going to try to catch up
and we are not going to succeed. So
it's something else.
And on the other side,
which you are saying here,
It's our take on visual
art
and music.
We need once again to be quite clear
on
the flexibility
and the opportunities
and what is possible in this field
and not to come with halal haram. That's
not true. That's not our tradition.
So,
more flexibility
as to the legal,
deeper understanding as to the goals,
in the light of what I was talking
about this morning.
I hope that you got this
over these 2 days,
that everything is connected with this overall thing,
and then I'm trying to
come back to this. I'm not going to
give
a very
detailed answer about this is halalal haram. We
have to put it in the big picture,
as I was saying.
And even with visual arts,
there are lots of different opinions about can
you represent or not.
No. I I remember
30 years ago going to some place and
say say, you cannot take picture.
Holla.
And it was only for identity,
you
know, needs, and that's it. And then you
look now with all your mobiles and everything,
it's less less Haram.
And now
it's about what you are doing with it,
what is your you know, and what you
are representing.
If in your intention you compete and you
try to compete with the creator,
this is what was understood. You can't do
that. But if it's a way you celebrate
the beauty in the name of the creator,
that's fine.
So it depends on your intention. If you
start with Bismillahir
Rahmenir Rahim, even if no one hear it
in the world and your intention,
it's celebration of beauty through visual art, Allah
Barakatilla.
Knowing the
that the substance should be halal,
the substance of
the the visual.
Your question about
your question about homosexuality
and and how can we deal with this
in Muslim majority countries.
You know, the Muslim majority countries and the
Gulf States, there is a state of denial
that we are facing a problem here.
And and I don't want to come with
a confusing discourse on this. What is halal
and haram?
What is halal is halal and haram is
haram. Now we have people who have their
life, and the way there is a state
of denial, it's very quick to condemn
the people
and not to come to an understanding that
there is
a vicious,
corrupt reality in these societies
that is pushing the people and driving them
towards
behavior that are it's all about hypocrisy.
But the hypocrisy is not with the ordinary
Muslims. It starts with
with the government.
The first to be hypocrites is them, and
then there is a so
to go to this, the starting point is
to to be able to open up
spaces where you can discuss this in a
way where there is trust within the society,
that you are not perceived as
being guilty
because your behavior is not
Islamically right, but you are just trying to
struggle
with the situation. And
then that's a deep discussion.
But it's very difficult.
It's very difficult.
In many Muslim majority countries with the cultures
and the way it is, it's very difficult
just to be able to come to the
point where
there is a there is really a state
of denial.
You know, I decided in Qatar, I said,
I can't be in Qatar without opening the
field of migrant workers.
So I have a field in the the
center, and I told them I'm not going
to be here being silent on this. All
my life is about talking about injustice. I'm
not going to come there and be silent.
And you deal with people,
they are in a state of denial.
No. They are well treated. They say, how
can you do this?
This new slavery is unacceptable.
So it's everywhere in the region. It's wide.
And I think that this is where we
have to be courageous. It means that you
are going to be rejected by some. Some
are not going to listen to you. But
it's a step by step process, and you
can find people who are ready.
And don't put all the people who are
in charge
at the same level. Some are ready to
understand. Some are ready to open. So it's
patient, strategic, and diplomatic take that you have
in order to open spaces for discussion,
not to condemn the people.
So about this is just this is representing
what is
the Islamic overall vision about men and women.
This is what is the tradition.
Now do we have to deal and open
the discussion
in situations that are new? Yes, we have.
But starting with
the overall framework
of the
divine
project.
The divine project is men and women.
Now there
are realities that we have to deal with
and we have to come with
And by the way, I can tell you
that in some issues, the Shia are much
more courageous than the Sunni by attacking, at
least by discussing.
It doesn't mean that I agree with all
the answers, but at least they are
discussing,
not as we are doing sometimes avoiding the
question and saying that there is not
yes, because for some, for example, they have
been repeating things that
the fact that we don't have an authority
makes that we are repeating opinions and we
are not checking the opinions.
So on things that are very and and
and and scholars at the highest level, they
were
they they also
changed their mind in in in issues on
issues that it's very important, so we have
to open up the discussion. About,
your 3 quest your 2 questions,
women singing, it's you.
You have 3?
So,
you tell me if I there is one
missing.
It's as if I have 2 here. So
you were
yes, yes, I have the 3. So
about
being involved
in singing and things like this, well, you
know
what the fashion is and how things could
be
instrumentalized
or portrayed or promoted.
That's also something that,
it's
a choice and a personal
attitude and positioning that you need to have.
You know, if you start by saying,
because it's risky, I'm not going to do
anything, you will never do
anything.
Now you have to assess the risks and
to say, look,
now if I have the skills,
I have the good intentions,
and if I can do it, I have
myself to find a space where I can
protect myself from that. And these are things
that you can have or you can start.
And this means
that instead of,
looking at fashion the way it is at
the highest level,
professionals,
you can, at your level at least, try
to find the right way of doing it.
So
it might prevent you from
rising very high,
but it should not prevent you from
doing something.
So and this is why it's true
we have to be very cautious with the
risks,
but not to the point not to be
able to do anything because, you know,
sad
waria, which is a dimension that we have
in Islamic, where as soon as you see
that something can use can lead you towards
something which is haram, so it's haram, It
means that at the end, everything is haram.
So we so it's not true.
I think
it's an assessment.
And for some, by the way,
you can feel that you are not equipped
to do that because it's too risky. So
some could say it's too risky and others
could say, no, I can make it. I
can do it. So some, for example, not
in the field of arts, they are telling
me,
in politics, for example,
shall I go? And some are saying, I'm
not equipped to do that because I'm going
to be within a world which is going
to destroy me. So they don't go.
So Yusuf Islam, when I was telling him,
don't stop,
his answer is, I don't. I'm not equipped.
I don't have the strength to resist what
is in this world. It's 28
years later, through his son, coming back to
music saying, now I'm strong psychological
decision.
It's
a legal understanding.
So it's a psychological
decision. It's a legal
understanding,
and it's a personal take on on the
issue. So if you feel so so this
is where
I wouldn't go in this discussion by saying
it's too risky to avoid everything. No, I
say, I want to talk to you. I
want to know who you are. I want
to understand what do you want to achieve,
and then we assess the risks, and then
we take a decision or you take a
decision.
But not starting with
because this, the ethical risk is leading us
was nowhere.
About the
when you go to somebody and he's telling
you about
traveling, for example, how do you take the
decision?
Abu Hamid al Ghazali,
when he was asked in the,
about who is the right imam for you,
where
is the authority? Where are you going to
find your authority?
He said three things.
The first is that you need to look
for an imam
who is close
to
you so around
you, in the region.
2nd, he has to be competent
and acknowledged by other scholars by being a
scholar, not an ignorant
or not
a so called scholar.
3rd,
look at that,
when he answers you, your heart feels at
peace.
It means that there is something coming from
you. He has the knowledge,
and you have the feeling, yes, I feel
good with this.
Let me give you an example about music.
I keep on repeating this because I was
myself,
surprised by the the guy who came to
me. He was coming, I was giving,
teaching at home, and he was coming at
home, and and he liked,
following in,
these classes. And he came once to me
and say,
I have a question.
Is music guitar halal or haram?
And I told him the three opinions.
I said,
it could be haram,
It could be possible for some, but, if
it's drums. And it could be halal. It
depends your intention and what you are doing.
And he looked at me and said, what
is your position?
I said, my position is the last one.
I think music is not haram. It depends
on your intentions, what you are doing with
it. I said, Okay.
So he was playing guitar,
and I was giving him a kind of
permission: you can carry on.
He left
and 3 months later he came to me
and said,
Sheikh, I went to another Sheikh.
I said, okay. That's fine. And what?
He told me he told me it's haram.
I said, okay. So what is your position
now? I said, I prefer his position. It's
haram.
I said, okay. That's fine. This is your
you know? The feeling?
It's haram.
And then I looked at him and said,
so no music, no guitar?
He looked at me and said, no, I'm
still playing, but I know it's haram.
You know this? That's that's so this story,
if you think about it in psychological
term, is that the need to have something
which is black and white,
while you are still doing it, it's it's
it's a psychological
attitude. And at the same time, I respected
his position. And by the way, years later,
now he plays guitar.
He's still,
and he has changed his but what I'm
saying here is that
the psychological
individual factors
are very important here, and this is why
you take a decision.
At the end,
you went with a sincere intention to a
knowledgeable person. He gave you the opinion,
and now you take your decision. This is
why a fatwa is
never to be imposed,
no constraint. You,
it's an advice that you have, and you
go ahead. Last thing
about what you said,
Of course, sometimes the people are doing
actions that are at the point
you have an opinion about the person.
For example, my position on Saddam Hussein
was very bad or on
Gaddafi and dictators.
So their actions, I'm condemning their actions, but
it's for me they have to be condemned.
But I have not the final word
on who they are.
I was asked by a journalist
recently
to say, if you,
the the whole story were was you are
in a car,
and she was asking me about what you
do if you see these people on on,
you know,
you are,
crossing,
your in your way you see these people.
And it was lots of questions like this,
when you stop in your life, when you
will come back. It was quite interesting.
And then at one point
say, what if
you meet in the desert
3 dictators,
what are you going to do with them?
Do you leave them?
Or who do you take?
Saddam Hussein? No. It was Bashar al Assad?
Netanyahu?
And look at the question of your brother,
because she had,
she was saying that my brother said that,
it's right to
stoning is right
because it's
it's, God's punishment,
which was a long controversy a few years
ago in France that my brother my brother,
wrote an article about this. By the way,
it was not what he was saying, but
she was to say, are you 2 going
to take your brother,
or are you going to take another dictator?
As if to distance myself from my brother.
And my answer was this one. I said,
you know what? If I meet anybody in
the desert,
maybe
or maybe
Hitler,
I'm going to bring him in the car
and go straight
to
the tribunal,
end of quote, and don't let people being
dying in the desert. That's not my way.
I bring them, go with them, going to
be judged. Meaning what?
It's ethically impossible for you at the end
to let the people die in the desert
because you are confusing what they did with
who they are. No. I come. Come. Enter
in the car. I'm going with you, and
we go to the tribunal. Meaning
that our position on this is we have
to be very cautious.
This is why when people
are very quick on speaking about killing people,
I didn't feel good at all when,
Joseph Al Khaldawi was speaking about killing Gaddafi.
I,
in this country, when I was asked about,
and I was very upset with the answers
coming from,
my brothers and sisters in the United States
of America, happy that, Bin Laden was killed
when we were told he was killed.
I say, yes, we are no, I'm
sorry. If
what was said is true, that he was
without weapon,
you arrest him and you judge him. You
don't kill him.
Because at the end,
the judgment is about the action.
Killing is killing the person.
Do you understand the point that I'm making
here? So is there a situation where it's
confused?
Never.
I will never.
At the end, what I understand that
even the Prophet, ayesus Salam, with the hypocrites,
he was very cautious.
How do we finally judge somebody? You have
to be very cautious with this.
So,
hate the actions, hate the behavior,
and sometimes you can hit the people for
what they are doing,
but this is not the final judgment of
who they are.
That's my position on it. Even sometimes it's
very difficult.
I can say I hate Netanyahu,
but I don't have the final
judgment on who he is.
But I hate what he's doing.
Not only him. I see the same.
No. No. That's not Or do you be
filed judgment, in terms of, like, salvation or
you want to damn somebody?
You know close the door to it. What
do you mean? You know, I I I
I didn't like at all Saddam Hussein.
Just before being killed with this,
they have this video,
he came and
he said a shahada before leaving.
Who can tell me
that in the last few hours before being
killed,
there is not something that happened in him
that he was
very sincere and deeply sincere that at the
end, you come back to the hadith,
somebody
can behave
with the actions of hellfire and at the
last moment he goes to paradise. Who can
tell that?
Yeah.
So at one point, you have to stop.
So the hadith is telling you this.
So that's it. Before giving the floor to
you, Hussein, I was okay. No.
I was going to
just let me tell you something. It was
really thank you. I want to thank Hussein
and all the Jibril Institute for all what
they organized. It was very well organized.
We had very beautiful 2 days, so please
pray for them and pray for what they
are doing.
I was told about for the people who
are also interested in the
in the summer school that we have, go
on my Facebook page. There are,
the indication there. If you want to be,
if you can come to Granada, welcome. If
you can't and you want to be connected
with the work, you have the leaflets, so
do this.
And really, I want to thank you because
I think that through the questions that I
had over these 2 days, this was a
very interesting,
seminar for me. So
as much as you can, pray for your
brother, Insha'Allah.
And as I'm always
finishing my class, don't forget to tell the
people you love that you love them. Life
is fragile.
Don't smile. Think about it.
Or smile and think about it. Thank you.