Tariq Ramadan – Islamic Ethics How we Know Right and Wrong #1
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Good evening. Good morning. Can you hear me?
Yes. Is that okay? Even there? If I
speak like this, it's okay?
Okay. Thank you, Hussein, for for this introduction
and for organizing this, 2 day,
seminar.
I'm trying now these days to focus more
on training like this.
Long time ago, I was used to have
such training seminars around the countries where I
have 5 hours,
training every month. So so this time is
2 days. And
as it was said, is mainly focusing on
the book.
In fact, it has been delayed because
they want it to be a bit simpler.
So I'm now trying to have a problem
with it takes me time to be short.
So that's the reality and to be simple.
So I I will
I'm working on that now and,
it will be published in in,
hopefully, the beginning of
2017.
So it means that what you have in
your hands is something which is
personal. It's for your reading, and it should
not be used and quoted elsewhere.
So this was the condition.
And as you are
attending a seminar on ethics,
let's ask Stryo
start with this.
But ethically,
it's not
to be used elsewhere,
to be read and,
used for yourself.
So,
this is one. The second thing is, as
it was said, I want to thank with,
Hussein, all the
the
the the members of the Jibril Institute that
in fact, they have been organizing the whole
thing. What we are trying to do with,
Kyle is just to be involved
by providing
ideas and and sharing views and trying to
get
what I wanted to start with by making
it clear
that,
last time when we had this seminar, it
was about radical reform.
And,
the
Keil Center, the send the research center was
based, in fact, on translating
all the ideas of radical reform into
practice through our way of dealing with critical
questions because the subtitle of radical reform is
ethics and liberation,
Islamic ethics and liberation,
saying that in ethics, there is a critical
field that we have to study again,
connecting through ethics all the Islamic sciences
and to try to understand how we can,
relying on ethics, relying on FIRK, Islamic law
and jurisprudence,
and relying also on Maqhasid,
the higher objectives,
as to try to understand how,
from there, we can also
renew our understanding of Islam. So,
what
I'm trying to do, and I I want
you to get this,
my thought by doing this, this kind of
seminar,
is really to create a movement of thought,
which is not,
a uniformity
in thinking,
but critical discussion about central questions. And you
will see the way it's going to be
put to you is, pushing you to rethink
and to reassess
what you have been sometimes repeating and sometimes,
thinking that it's clear, for example, from,
the tradition.
And for me,
there is an in this an understanding of
Islam. So my starting point of this movement
of thought is when I'm trying to define
Islam,
starting with the tawhid, the oneness of god,
it's 2 things. What we have to do
is change yourself, change the world.
You can be
you can disagree on this, but you should
come with argument.
Changing yourself is the very essence of the
spiritual journey. Everything in Islam is about tazkiyat
and nafs. You have to change yourself.
Purifying yourself is changing yourself for the better,
meaning
there is no way to change yourself if
you are not, you don't have a clear
ethical framework. What it is all about? Changing
to do what? Changing to become,
whom? This is central. So the ethical reference,
when it comes to changing yourself, it's important.
And it's not changing yourself and then you
go to change the world.
It's changing the yourself and at the same
time changing the world, and changing the world
to change yourself at the same time. So
it's a two way process. And changing the
world means as well that you have to
have an ethical framework.
How are you going to promote
what is good and how are you going
to prove to to resist what is bad?
Is central in our understanding of Islam. So
I put it in a very simple sentence,
but get it right from the very beginning.
All what I'm saying is in the light
of this. What I understood as being the
essence of
our relationship to God, the essence of Tawhid.
And I would say it's exactly the same
in the Jewish tradition, the Christian tradition, and
all the tradition.
Change yourself, change the world. Change the world
in order to change yourself and change yourself
is the starting point of changing the world.
So this is the the the the the
the idea. The second point which is important
as an introduction to this seminar,
it's what I said is
I don't have an organization. I I have
a research center. But what I want to
bring about is really something which has to
do in the west and in Muslim majority
countries. Because what is important for me is
going beyond this divide that you have Muslims
in Muslim majority countries and Muslim in the
west and coming here in the west and
say, you know what? We need the fiqh
of minority. I don't like all this business.
I'm not for a fiqh of minority. I
don't think that it's different from what we
have today in Muslim majority countries. Many things
are problematic in
as a step, that's fine. As a final
goal, I think it's problematic.
I think federal minority is,
mainly thought by people who are not living
in the West,
in the way they look at the West.
It's as if we are not in our
country, and as I'm always and I repeated
this, as British Muslims, you are not in
a minority situation. There is nothing like minority
citizenship. So everything that you have to think
is being part of a nation, of, a
society,
to which you belong. So the sense of
loyalty to your principles is also a sense
of loyalty to your country. So having said
that, this movement of thought which is crossing
the board and it's also trying to get
people from not only the Arab world, because
I think that here we are very narrow.
It's, the Asian world and for you coming
mainly from Asia, from Pakistan, Bangladesh,
revival of Islam is not only going to
come revival of Islam is not only going
to come from the Middle East. At the
periphery, we have a very important role to
play because we are facing critical questions. And
you will talk about this in practical terms
tomorrow.
So now,
what I call
radical in the way I want us to
reassess.
For example, in this discussion this morning, the
the Islamic sciences, for example, and the categorization
of Islamic sciences, which is problematic.
We are used to speak about this. We
are used to come with a very traditional
way of dealing with Islamic sciences. But if
you think about it and you think about
the history of Islamic sciences, you can see
that the evolution
has to be problematized.
There is something that we have to question
here in the way we deal with our
sciences. I will come to this later. But
having said that, my take is in what
I I I call radical. And you can
see here that all this, rhetoric about radicalization
is for me problematic because they are
it's good sometimes to be radical.
I'm radically against poverty and corruption,
in ethical term, to be radical in in
the way you think is good. So and
even when you speak out radicalization for these
young people who are going,
to towards violent extremists. You can see that
disconnection with the religious
legacy
doesn't make or cannot translate the fact that
they have been radicalized. Very often, they entered
into religion 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months
before being completely extreme in their understanding. So
it's not a religious radicalization.
By accepting the term, we are accepting
the frame, the the the the the the
very,
implicit message that it has to do with,
an evolution in their understanding of religion, which
is not the case. In fact, they were
6 months before, they were partying, they were,
using drugs and all of a sudden. So
which type of radicalization
is this? That's the problem. Anyway, that's not
the point today. But it's just for you
in the UK just to keep this in
mind with all the rhetoric that you have
coming from the government as if it was
natural to accept that. I think it's not.
It's dangerous.
So you have to question the way things
are put even in the UK.
So
the the concept of radical for me is
4 things that I'm mentioning in all what
I'm trying to do is,
to be
rigorously
rigorous in the way we deal with in,
with
our
intellectual
and our thinking to be rigorous. So rigorous
mean the way radical, it's rigorous. It's the
way we deal with our terminology to try
to understand the words. And,
in the religious term, I'm coming from a
tradition. I'm not representing all the Muslims, as
you know. It's a reformist approach. And once
again, I repeat to be clear, I never
said and I will never say that we
are reforming Islam. We are reforming the Muslim
minds. That's the starting point. Reforming the Muslim
minds mean reassess your interpretations. The Quran is
the Quran. The text are the text, but
your mind might have a problem.
So it's mainly with the minds that I'm
dealing not with. So be careful because the
way my positions have been translated,
by some people are and from within the
Muslims, they say, oh, he wants to reform
Islam.
I just heard that, Abdul Ibrahim now is
saying that Tariq Ramadan
said that,
stoning is in the Quran.
I never said that.
But this is the way from within you
have this kind of attacks that are problematic.
And you have to be rigorous
intellectually, rigorous in your quotation, rigorous in your
terminology,
rigorous in your definitions. And at the same
time, you have to be,
and this is the way I'm putting it,
reformist in
the
religious
dimension. What also I'm talking about with this
r from radical is reconciliation.
And reconciliation
is to reconcile
the practical side and the spiritual side. I'm
very much,
worried about this discourse that we have now
with this new type of Sufis that we
have. You know, you have to be spiritual,
and this is the opposite of being, activist.
And activist is to,
is is where you lose your spirituality. I
would say being passive is the starting point
of losing your spirituality.
And I keep repeating this, the prophet, peace
be upon him, was praying during the night
to change the world during the day and
that's the reality of Sufis. The mystical, it's
about changing yourself, but
as
in the same way, changing the world once
again. And then
there is something which is,
revolution,
it's a new evolution, is to change completely,
and I would like us to reconsider
the term. Once again, I know that's not
a word that the people like, but to,
come with a new evolution, to revolutionize
our way of dealing with the scriptural sources,
to be quite confident with the text, confident
with the sources,
but also courageous
as the way you look at the world.
So this is also,
something which is part of
what, I'm talking about. Having said that, and
this is the introduction,
so I don't want you to come and
to say, oh, he's just going to give
us
an objective take. It's it's part of
an understanding,
a vision. And then I start with what
is needed. And I told you rigorous. And
rigorous means that we have to be clear,
with our definition. So let me come with
some of the notions I'm
starting with the the very beginning of things.
I think that I'm starting with the the
very beginning of things.
I think that this is also something which,
it's part of our understanding
when it comes, for example, to the notion
of Islam.
Anyone who knows Arabic
understand Islam,
in a way which is not exactly the
way we are translating this in English. Submission
in English doesn't mean Islam in Arabic.
It's deeper than that.
Enter in God's peace with all your heart
means that you enter with all your being,
meaning your will, your understanding, your intellect, your
heart, and your body. It's something which is
a will. It's something which is a decision.
It's not submission
which means you enter as if you have
less will and this submission is taking for
your humanity something. Submission in English, it's normal
to have it's quite normal. The connotation is
negative because this submission
is problematic.
So I would say here that we have
to be very clear on
surrender is another dimension, is with your heart
but with your mind. Because if you say
in Islam that it's not against the intellect,
You have to put it clearly in the
way you define Islam, in the way you
acknowledge the very essence of one God.
So this understanding is coming with all the
verses that we have in Islam, helping us
to understand
what it means to say
meaning I surrender.
So with all my heart, all my mind,
all my being,
I enter. And what are we trying to
get with this? You cannot understand Islam if
you don't have a clear understanding of
So stand up in this, eternal message that
came from God,
which was understood by some as Islam. And
the time, for example, is understanding fitra as
Islam.
In fact, this is the natural attraction
that you have towards the ultimate question. What
is the ultimate question? Why am I here?
And this natural attraction is coming back to
God. So God is the ultimate answer to
the essential question that you have, this attraction
that is here.
So there is something that he took from
all the human all humanity. Muslims
and people of other faiths. And by the
way, I keep on repeating,
stop please when you speak as Muslims about
people of other faiths to say non Muslims.
That is not respectful.
You wouldn't like to be called non Christian.
You like to be called Muslims. And when
you speak about you are Christians, you are
Jew,
you are Buddhist, and you are people of
other faiths, that's the way you are not
defining the people through your own window, but
from where they are. The intellectual
empathy,
it's also intellectual respect towards the other. So
having said that, sometimes I say non Muslims
in a very short way, but I don't
like it. I don't like myself when I'm
doing it, so don't do it.
So,
what was my point here? So having said
that now, al Fitra, it's, this acknowledgment, Fitra
no.
He made them testify. Am I not your
lord? So there is something which is a
spark in you being
which is part of the concept of human
being in Islam that is yearning for an
answer.
Yearning for an answer. Why? So the answer
here is
The the Tawhid
is bringing you the answer to this yearning
for,
an answer that was put in us.
So there is something in us which is
attracted and and for the Muslims,
the answer to this attraction
is the very essence of Tawhid. What does
it mean?
When are you at peace with yourself?
You are at peace with yourself when your
questions
get the answer. You are intellectually at peace.
When you have this attraction and you find
what are you going to get? Salam at
al nafs. Salam,
in fact, is the way you are going
to get this reconciliation
between the attraction,
the natural instinct that you have, the natural
attraction, and then when god is coming to
you and
and and and and and you come to
him and there is this reconciliation.
In fact, you have 3 words here that
are essential. 1st, Islam, which is much deeper
than just submission.
It's in fact,
this
acknowledgement
that you have with your conscience
of something which was in your essence.
That iliman
is coming to confirm
al Fitra,
which is part of your being. Al Iman
is what you get with your conscience that
was already in your nature.
The Islamic, this is why very important. Why?
Because in all our discussions
with people of other faiths and within Islam,
this is lost. It's that Islam submission, that's
it. No. It's a deep concept of human
being. Meaning that at the very beginning,
it's is the essential nature of who you
were that come back to this, come back
to this nature. And this nature is look
at your heart,
assess what is in your heart, and you
will see this spark that there is something
which is coming and yearning for an answer.
And then when you got the when you
get the answer, which is for the Muslims,
our understanding is
This is where
al Islam means
that
you got this. You are at peace with
him.
And this is why you understand here that
in the way you come back
to
a
is
then when you are at peace, this have
this spiritual tranquility.
It's not only spiritual. It's intellectual.
It's even physical
in the Islamic understanding.
So what I'm saying here
is that you cannot,
you can't
talk about tawhid and Islam
without understanding
the very deep meaning of al Fitra when
it comes to the concept of human being.
And,
once again here,
it's,
it's something which is important even in the
negative words. What does it mean, cough?
Anyone of you who is saying kuf is,
the disbeliever or disbelieving, be careful with this.
Means,
in fact, literally in Arabic, covering.
Covering. Covering what?
In fact, if the spark was there, El
Fetra was there and this
spark is covered,
kofr,
mean that you are unable
to get to the truth that was in
your being.
So El kofr is not to deny
because you don't have the intellectual capacity that
you don't believe, it's to have your essence
covered. This is why to call somebody to
Islam is to recall something which was there
and it's covered.
Okay. It's covered. So look at the Quran,
it's clear on this.
What does it mean, salim? Sound hot. In
the natural in the natural state.
A salim which which was not distorted.
That's it. So you have to come back
to this, to this original state of your
heart, which is in order to get the
right iman,
come back to your fitra. And the fitra
is what you have in your heart, which
is yearning towards transcendence.
That's a very important
Islamic understanding.
Why? Because it has an impact on anything
which is ethical. You have to get this
to understand how the ethical
Islamic system is constructed
if you get this. So
Islam, be careful
not reduce it. You know what? Islam is
submission to God. It's
deep coming back to God to get his
the inner peace.
With all your,
being come back to this. And this is
why you have to understand that this is
here to come back to our essence, to
come back to our inner being.
In fact, look at this.
That God is working, it's the knowledge of
God is between you and your heart. So
what does it mean? Come back to your
heart to get the answer. Meaning that there
is a very deep concept
here of
man and human being that it's based on
al fitra,
al islam, what tawhid.
And the tawhid for us, it's the ultimate
goal, which is coming back to him to
get this inner peace and to reconcile
yourself
through him towards your
essence.
Now
three things are important
in this
is,
this natural disposition that we have.
It's making us
understanding
that we have to be positive
about our human being. And this is why
there is something which is intrinsically
against anything which has to do with the
original sin. We don't have something like this.
No original sin. What does it mean? The
fitra is making you innocent
before you become
responsible.
So if you go from innocence to responsibility,
there is one one notion which is important.
What we find also in the Quran that
in the Kathi, for example, when he was
say was trying to he was not the
only one. You find this in
the Ayem al Jawziyah, in the Netaimiyah,
in Abrahamic El Ghazali. In all the philosophers
that we are going to talk about, they
are saying, if you have to translate and
try to understand a very simple verse
dealing with our dignity.
We give dignity to human beings.
What are the features of your dignity?
According to the scholars, the great majority of
them, there are different the, differences on the
way they are dealing with 2 things.
First, what was the first verse of the
Quran which has to do with with knowledge.
So you have this knowledge which is part
of your dignity that you can get knowledge.
But the second thing is your freedom.
Your freedom, it's part of your dignity. This
is why the angels who are praising god
permanently
are asked to bow in front before human
beings. It's judo.
The Adam is judo. Why? They are better
than him. Even the they're they're better in
him in the way they praise God because
they cannot disobey.
Well, this is exactly what's the reaction of
the jinn, Iblis,
I'm better than him
Because of my origin,
I'm better.
And even the the the the angels asking
god, are you going to put on earth
It's going to destroy, corrupt the world. Why
do we have to?
I know what you don't know. Meaning what,
there is intrinsically something which is our risk,
our destiny, but our dignity at the same
time which is freedom.
Those who want to believe that they believe
and those who want to deny, they deny.
So it's your freedom.
Freedom is essential. And this is where where
are you going to find this freedom? Between
your innocence
and your responsibility.
No responsibility
if there is no freedom. This is why
freedom is essential.
And in all the discussion that we'll have
about ethics, it has to do with your
freedom. Am I going to choose what is
good and what is bad? Freedom is essential.
So here,
innocence,
bara'a, it's innocence. It's the the essential
notion where we we come with a concept
of human being at the same time.
And as you see, in a sense, it's
important in the way it's also explaining the
relationship between alfetra
al Iman,
et tawhid,
and our understanding
of
our responsibility
coming back to the essence of our,
our understanding,
The essence of our being.
Now,
if I add to this
are you following me now?
Are you sure that you have all the
notions?
Now it's
okay. I have 5. How many do you
have?
I have to follow, because I see some
people and say, what is he saying?
It's very structured.
So
il Islam,
this is 1. It's how do you define
Islam. Fitra
is second.
What else?
Imaan. Imaan, which is part of it.
Imaan.
Sorry?
Tranquility.
No. This was not one that,
but a salam. Yes. It's it's it's,
sorry?
Tawhid
as essential and
innocence
innocence,
responsibility,
and Freedom.
So we have 8.
So when I say 5, say yes yes,
but in fact, you are not counting.
I can say whatever I want you are
following.
We we said we start with a critical
mind.
So you have to be sharp.
Having said that now, we add to this
terminology something which also it's important is,
how
how do you understand the notion of nafs?
And you keep on repeating nafsallawama,
nafsall mutma'inna,
nafsall amara, we know about when the mystical
thing that it's it's in the Quran.
That there are lots of interpretations coming from
the scholars, but there is something which is
important when you speak about nafs.
In fact,
our soul, this is a mystery.
Means
you are not going
You are not going to know what is
the essence of soul. But what you know,
this spirit coming from God was put in
your body. And when the soul is within
the body, this is where we are talking
about nafs.
So nafs. What is very important here is
that when it what is coming from God
as the spirit, the the
soul, and put in the in the body,
in Islamic terms, when you speak about innocence,
and this is critical in all our discussion,
very often you have people, they are dealing
with the Greek tradition or the Christian tradition.
They don't understand that
it's not we are not talking exactly out
of the same thing. Yes.
You have 2
elements
that are defining you. A soul,
a roar,
and your body. This is who you are.
Except that in Islam,
nafs,
the way it's defined,
and a roar coming from God,
nafs once is the spirit and al qalb
and the spiritual dimension,
and the body
are not ethically qualified.
So your body is not bad per se
and your naps is not good per se
when the spirit is coming in you. It's
the way you are behaving that is going
to make you good and bad.
So in the Greek tradition,
Socrates, when he's speaking about the body, the
body is the negative element
and,
the soul is the positive.
In Islam, you decide
what you are going to do with it.
It's your behavior that is going to make
it good or to make it bad. You
you may pray with your body and disobey
with your body. You may pray with your
soul and you may reject with the same
soul. If you are with your conscience, you
think it, the wrong way. What I'm saying
here is that
this categorization,
moral qualification of element
is not present in Islam. You start by
being
just wrote your right. If you want to
ask questions,
write them down and we'll have time for
question. So I'm trying not to stop during
my talk to give you at the end,
hopefully,
30 minutes
in Egyptian way.
Okay?
So, but I I want it to be
by the way, it's going to be much
more interactive tomorrow than today because today, the
theoretical framework, I need to to just to
set,
the scene and then we will have but
still, if you have questions,
keep them. So
the moral qualification in Islam is through action.
To the point
that you,
any one of you in this room, you
can never
judge a being
even though you condemn
actions and behavior.
Today,
you might say about the people in Dash,
in Pokor Haram, that you condemn
them, but if you say you condemn them,
what you should say, I condemn what they
are doing. I'm not condemning them as beings
because you don't know what could happen.
Be careful, that's very important. It means that
your being, it's not ethically qualified. The only
one who knows who you are and how
you are going to be judged
in ethical term is God
and sometimes yourselves.
But not, you cannot do this with people.
And this is coming from the prophet, I
s salam, that you
are
judging
and you must judge. You know, anything that
in our modern times say, you know, I
don't judge. Of course you judge.
What's that? You have to be judgmental,
but on
actions, on the way the people are, in
order with the actions to help the people
to change their being. But you don't condemn
the being.
That's an essential so all this, all what
I'm saying here, it's coming from the Islamic
concept of human being. It's it's coming from
all what I'm saying here, this relationship. So
now you have concept that you can try
now to have a kind of a connection
between the notions that you can understand
in a better way.
This is a concept of man,
with a capital m, concept of human being,
that at least we have to come back
and try to assess in our understanding.
Why? Because this is with this, this understanding,
that we can then start our understanding
of the ethical teachings coming from Islam.
By saying, for example, that
we start with the being, that there is
a fitra, that we are looking for an
answer and the answer is giving us peace,
and then we are innocent and
at the end, we understand that this journey
is what we call Islam in the light
of tawhi.
You get that? This is the this is
the summary of all what I said this
morning.
Following?
Okay. So this
is so now you may disagree with me,
and you should if you have a doubt,
but you come with arguments and we discuss
this because this is a central discussion.
By the way, you have different interpretations coming
from scholar,
but on this concept of man, you will
see that, there is a common agreement. We
might do the, disagree on some of the
elements and how you deal with it, but
this is important. Now,
not only we have to deal with
human being
and the concept of human being, but as
I was saying, Islam is changing yourself. So
you have to get a better understanding of
the self.
And then you also are here to change
the world. So you need to get an
understanding of the world, the concept of the
universe around us.
By the way, having said that, be also
careful.
I'm I'm I'm I am working there is
another book that is going to be published
even before this one, which is an essential
introduction to Islam. And I took long time
if I I was asked to do something
simple,
which is difficult as I told you about
an introduction to Islam. It's already published in
in in in French. It's going to be
published even before the English in in Arabic.
But,
in this,
I took
a long time just to come with this
basic
understanding of the being and the world, the
universe.
And the universe
is also
something here
that we need to to get.
As I told you, our understanding,
the Islamic understanding and by the way, this
is in the Shiite tradition, in the Sunni
tradition, it's all the same. It's very positive.
Our understanding of the being, in a sense,
responsibility
is very positive. In fact,
you have the means of your own liberation.
You have the means.
There is nothing bad in you.
There is nothing originally bad in you. You
have the means of your own liberation
through knowledge,
through your the the right use of your
freedom and understanding that, in fact, the answer
is in your heart. So come back to
the essence,
the journey.
This is why Paulo Coelho in The Alchemist
took all this from the Sufi tradition which
is exactly this. Go to Spain, you will
go go to Egypt, you'll come back to
Spain. Spain is where the answer is. This
is exactly
Go from your heart and you will come
back. That's it.
And you make money off of it, but
we don't know how to do that. So
we need to have people poking on our
you know, laughing but this is the reality.
And he acknowledged the fact that it's a
Sufi tradition. It's a Sufi thing.
So,
anyway,
what was my point?
Journey.
The Journey. Thank you.
What was it? Not really.
I leave my my
I'm sorry.
I was talking oh, yes. About the universe
and,
yes.
Changing yourself and change so there is a
concept of the universe here,
which is
very positive in Islam. Very positive.
They're asking you what is permissible for us?
What is open for us?
Is the world is full of
So the world in itself,
it's not a space of danger, it's a
space of permission.
To the point that the scholar, the Fuqaha,
when they came to the Muhamalat are saying
The first principle when it comes to social
affairs,
interpersonal,
it's permission.
It's open for you. But there is something
which is essential here, which is be careful,
this universe is not your property.
You are
or Khalifa. And Khalifa is and this is
deep.
And you will see here that in
many of the traditional
native spiritualities, for example, in the United States,
the Indians before,
Africans a long time ago, Asian.
Their relationship with the universe was about to
it. You you remember the Indian,
chief that was responding to the American who
was saying, you know what? We thought that
we are belonging to the earth and you
thought that the earth was,
belonging to you.
So this is
as Muslims, there is
means
you don't have the ownership.
This is for you to use. You are
managing but you don't have the property.
That's essential because
when some today, even we'll talk about this
tomorrow because we have some scholars saying, you
know what, In Islam, we agree with capitalism
because we agree with, private property.
This is
reformism without,
essence.
It's a new issue he had when you
have some of the scholars that were I
respect so much being able to say, you
know what? The Islamic system is a regulated
capitalism.
This is what I heard from Sarkozy,
that we have to have a more ethical
capitalism.
Tell me how you do that.
Anyway,
it's a contradiction in term because capitalism has
nothing to do with ethical reference.
So
we'll talk about this tomorrow. The point here
is
that
the way you deal with the world
and the way you have to deal with
the world is to understand that, that
you are managing and you have a responsibility.
Yes, you can have
a private property
knowing that you are not the owner and
you have to deal with it in ethical
terms. The fact that you are not the
owner
is the fact that you need to understand
that the way you have to manage the
world is through ethical behavior.
So this is through ethics that you are
you are showing your faithfulness
to the owner.
And this is why god is saying you,
wherever you are,
If we are setting them or they are
settling down somewhere,
they pray.
They give the
So they are promoting what is right and
resisting what is bad. This is where you
and this is the way you have to
be with with the universe is wherever you
are, you pray to acknowledge that it's here,
he's here. 2nd, you give the zakat to
acknowledge that the poor have rights on what
you have before God and then you do
your best to change the world for the
better by promoting the good and resisting the
bad. This is wherever you are. But knowing
that
means that it's
the to god belongs
everything that is on earth, on in the
heaven. So the starting point here is the
very notion, not the Khalifa that you have
now in
in Iraq,
because also this is very important. When you
come with the deep understanding of what Khalifa
is,
you have to challenge because they are distorting
all the notions. They are distorting the notion
of jihad. They are distorting the notion of
even the Islamic reference to a state, for
example. You might disagree with the fact that
it should be or they should be an
Islamic state but at least you know that
what they are doing has nothing to do
with the Islamic reference.
And by the way, I'm never saying that
this has nothing to do with Islam. I
think that we have with arguments to respond
to what they are doing and to tell
them you are not Muslims and this is
not Islam. It's not going to work. If
anybody is quoting the Quran, you have to
respond with arguments by showing that this yes.
You are using the Quran and you are
using Islam in the wrong way so we
have to respond. And I'm not going to
do what you are doing to me. I'm
not going to do what you are doing
to me. I'm not going to do what
you are doing to me. I'm not going
to do
in the wrong way so we have to
respond. And I'm not going to do what
you are doing to me. Even if you
tell me that I'm no longer a Muslim,
I'm not going to put you outside Islam.
I would say what you are doing has
nothing to do with Islam. As to your
heart, I don't have the secret. I don't
know where you are and where you stand.
Which is also something, don't do to them
what you don't like them, to do to
you in the way which we have now,
something which is the takfiri.
This is a new fashion.
You decide who is in, who is out,
and, and just sometimes to please the government.
Oh, no no. Not Muslims.
Who told you that? How can you say
this? No. What they are doing and the
behave you know how everything is connected in
there is a logic. There is a consistency
in the way we deal with the the
whole thing.
So here,
it's also
a very important concept because this is where
by the way,
not only you are holaffer
with the world, but we you are also
holaffer with your own self.
So all this business of saying this is
my body, I do whatever I want with
my body, let's say,
I have some doubt about the fact that
it's your body.
You are using it. It's a vehicle. It's
the way that you have responsibility
with your body. To the point that in
the hadith,
al Bukhari,
one of the first questions that you are
going to be asked about just after your
death is what have you done with your
health?
So this is a question. You cannot just
neglect your body, which is part of
a space of responsibility
towards the owner
as
vicegerent
and somebody who is trying his best. So
now we have at least 10 words, 10
notions. They are all connected
in this understanding. And in everything, you can
understand that the critical reference in this has
to do with ethics and has to do
with your responsibility,
your freedom and your understanding.
Understanding that,
you are going towards this
notion.
One thing that I wanted to add with
these old notions is
is be careful
also
with the notion of Islam
that, there was Islam before Islam.
Okay. The final religion, the final message
is Islam as an act of faith.
But this was acknowledged.
In its time,
Judaism was Islam of its time.
Christianity was Islam of its time. Abraham was
a Muslim in the way he's acknowledging all
what we are saying here. There is one
God, I come back to you.
Who said that? Abraham.
Ibrahim alayhis salam. So it means that he
was using the notion of Islam which was
the way you are with God.
Then this was translated
Every one of you, every religion is going
to have its path, but the essence is
the same. So Islam is, for us, something
which is beyond this translation
based on all what I'm saying now, all
what I have been saying now. And and
the distortion that we disagreed,
or we disagree with when it comes to
Christianity and Judaism because the the the very
understanding of why do we need a new
revelation is that because the the previous revelation
was distorted. So the Christian agree on us
when it comes to Judaism. They don't agree
with us
as to Islam. Of course, that's natural.
So so we we we understand that for
the Christian, what came after is no truth.
But for us, the same logic that I
that is explaining why we need new revelations
is
is to renew
and to
correct things that were,
distorted. For example, the very essence of our
disagreement.
I'm talking also about this in the essential
introduction to Islam is that our disagreement with
all the other religions, for example, is the
trinity is essential
in
our
disagreement when it comes to how do we
speak about God and how do we speak
about his
unity.
Now,
with all this, and it's only now that
I can give you a better understanding of
isla,
our teshdi. Is
to come back to the sound
state.
Okay. This
is So having said this,
it's
for us,
means
coming back
to the deep and the real understanding of
our relationship to God. What are you trying
to find, and what are we finding when
we say,
There is no God but God. What are
we finding?
It's this
tranquility is a man because a man is
not only faith. A man is a man,
is a space of security where you are
in security. In fact, as I said, is
a space of salam, peace, a peaceful space
where your answer
encounter
or found
its,
your questions found their answers.
So that's also the the the dimension of
iman.
And in when it comes to this is,
for us,
reforming is to come back to this. So
all what we have to do with our
own self
is to reform ourself to come back to
Al Kalb e Salim. It's the very original,
state that we had. So we are struggling
to find the origin,
to find the spot, to find the essence
of our relationship to God.
So in the Sufi tradition,
and be careful in the way I'm talking
about Sufis, there is Sufis and Sufis.
There is Sufin which is
the heart of Islam,
and there is a new type of Sufis
which which is more new age and,
modern. I don't talk about this.
I'm talking about the very essence of the
the the the the the spiritual
journey,
which is very demanding.
But everything that has to do with the
mystical journey is come back to the source.
In nelila, you come back to the art.
You come back. So reforming, it's purification
means what?
To remove
everything which is distorting this original state.
So it's coming back to your fitra.
When you get this,
sometimes when you speak with people who are
rejecting God,
or for example, and people sometimes who are
very tough in in the discussion that I
had with,
sometimes it's difficult to think that there is
a spark somewhere when you speak to Dawkins.
I say, have some doubt.
But still it's there.
Still in fact, there is something which is
covered
and you know that your own experience is
to go
and to deepen
your own relationship with this original spark to
get it.
And when you you understand this
and you get this concept of man, you
understand that the way you speak with people
who are denying
have to be careful not to speak only
at the periphery of their being
and speak sometimes at the center of things
that they are neglecting or denying.
It doesn't mean that you have the key
of their conversion. By the way, it's not
none of your business. You're not here to
convert people.
You are here to be witnesses
for them to remember.
This is exactly what happened with Musa alayhis
salam.
Go to Firaoun. He he was a transgressor.
And then
speak to him with soft words. Why are
you doing this?
Maybe he's going to
remember or he's going to have this fear
and coming back, but this is not you.
You just you use the means,
god
use and knows the goals
and the results.
This, in our understanding, when it comes to,
to this discussion,
is
reforming is to come to the natural state
to understand the very essence of our being.
And you cannot understand this if you don't
have a clear understanding of the concept of
man or the Islamic concept of human beings.
This is what I was saying. At the
same time, what,
we have to do in the universe, it's
exactly this, is to reform the world for
the better.
Meaning, that we,
the world,
as I said,
he gave it to you. It's at your
disposal.
And then what you have to do is
to reform the world and to make it
ethically a better place.
Wherever you are,
in East London
or in Bangladesh
or in Syria or in Egypt or in
the United States of America,
wherever you are,
the your very presence should be
visible to the way you make this place
a better place.
That's
it. Wherever you are.
And don't
start with, oh, that's not my country.
Who told you that, you are defined by
your country? You are defined by your ethical
presence?
So even if you don't have the passport,
you have the human belonging
in the name of God.
So you have to be
to contribute for the better. So this is
reforming. Reforming yourself and reforming the world.
Meaning that in the Quran, telling you that
the the the earth is vast and you
have to travel. If you are repressed somewhat,
travel. But wherever you are, as I said,
McEnneil,
home field art, wherever you settle, this is
the place where your presence should be a
reformist presence by changing the world for the
better.
Meaning, come back to yourself,
come back to this innocence that you have,
to the original spot, try to find this
inner peace, and spread peace, which is the
very meaning of Efshu Salaam
Efshu Salaam, which is exactly what the prophet,
peace be upon him,
said arriving in Medina
while he knew that at that moment,
wars and attacks were going to be very
tough against him.
Yes. I know I have to to to
I'm taking from their time.
Yes. I know.
But you know what? I don't know why
you put 1 hour 15 minutes for the
first and 2 hours for the second. Can
I take 15 minutes from the second now?
You wanna come with that? No. It's it
was a rhetorical question. That's okay.
I'm making it,
democratic.
So
this is what we have to do knowing
that with all the positive
teaching that we have in the Quran,
what is going to happen with human being
is that they are going to corrupt
the earth and they are they are going
to spread,
bloodshed everywhere.
This was said by the angels from the
very beginning. This is the very nature of
human beings. They are going to corrupt and
they are going to to spread wars and
and destruction.
What is your role in this is to
be the resistant to this natural
attitude of human beings. So this is
as much as you're going to be just
with your own self. Who said that from
the very beginning?
Adam or Hawa, they were saying
saying,
we have been in charge with our own
self.
If you are not going to forgive us,
we are going to be lost.
So from the very beginning, they started by
saying
So a bomb here is the way you
mistreat yourself
and the way you are going to mistreat
the universe.
Muslims,
believers,
are the resistant
to this,
wherever they are. Within
and outside.
So it's a resistant so this is why
anyone who, in the name of being good
Muslims now and not bad Muslims, are trying
to say, you know what? Remove jihad from
your vocabulary.
I say, no. It's impossible. It's central in
Islam.
Jihad is the central notion of resisting
in order to reform. This is why I'm
translating,
jihad not as only effort. It's the two
way. It's resisting
and reforming at the same time. It's resisting
what is bad and reforming for what is
good. So it's against and it's for. It's
not only against, and it's only for. It's
a two way. So you can have
Jihad against poverty
and Jihad for justice.
So you you have the 2 movement. Now,
with this,
you understand what I was saying in the
way I was defining this and all the
notions that I was referring to now.
Having said that now
and understanding, there are 3 other notions that
are, in fact, the second part of my
talk and I will end with this now
before I will come with the classification of
Islamic Sciences later.
It's three notions that we are using,
the principles,
the means, and the objectives,
So here, it's important to understand this.
So when we are talking about,
you have to be clear on this because
it's a bit,
deep in,
spiritual term.
Maybe it will come with the discussion today
and tomorrow.
But one of the translation,
the subtle translation of shirk,
is to take the means for the goals.
Okay.
I will make it clear.
Why are you praying?
You're trying to pray
to remember
God.
This is what is said in Surataha.
So pray in order to remember me.
So to pray is a means, isn't it?
And the goal is God, is remembering.
If at one point
in your life
the means
becomes the goal,
is the starting point of area.
Means
So you end, you stand up, you pray,
and you beautify your prayer because you know
that somebody is looking at you.
So it's good. You pray,
but the goals are not clear.
So prayer
become the goal and not the means.
So you have to be very clear at
what are the principles.
So the principles, for example, is what are
you the principles are the sources. And Usul
is what you are extracting
from the Quran that are the principles and
that can be the values.
And then you have to be clear about
the means and be careful.
Firq,
Islamic law and jurisprudence, the legal framework is
but a means
for something.
And if you end up thinking that everything
is in the room, it's as if you
are walking on the path,
and instead of looking at where you you
are heading, you are obsessed with the limits.
So when you look, you you you confuse
the path with the limits by saying, this
is essential.
You are taking the means showing you the
path for the path,
and that could be shirk.
You understand what I mean here? So means
should be,
very clear
in the way it's
what do you need in order
to implement the principles
in order to achieve the objectives.
You get that?
What do you need as means
to achieve or to translate the principles?
So for example, you have the principle of
justice or you have the principle of freedom.
How are you going to translate this into
the means to get the final,
goal which is use your your your
freedom for the good, which is the final
goal. So we need to have this in
mind every time we speak and if and
especially when it comes to Islamic sciences in
our understanding of ethics.
Why? Because
in ethical terms,
if you have an ethical value,
let's say, okay, justice,
what you
what you are expecting
from the value is to be translated into
rules.
So you have a legal framework translating
justice into
a just
regulated system.
But to achieve what?
To achieve the higher objective, which is equal
dignity for human beings. Black, white, poor, rich,
we have to be just with everybody. So
there are goals
and these goals should be the ethical translation
to the means of our principle.
It's what we have to do. Anishtiad is
all about this because there are many issues
where we don't have an answer. So we
need to find the way we extract the
principles, try to find the means to achieve
the goals. If
you end up being obsessed with the means
without reaching the goal, it could be the
distortion of Islam.
For example,
the literalist implementation of some rules are in
fact completely
against the very essence of the objectives.
Who said that? Not me. Omar Ibn Kathab.
Omar Ibn Kathab in the time of Amin
when he said we cannot implement a clear
verse about stealing,
meant what? This is a means to try
to get justice. But if by implementing this
means, we are not getting justice, we better
suspend
the application of the means because we are
missing the objectives.
So the principle of justice was clear, but
the principle of the the objective of translating
this into,
the reality in our life. It Tanzil al
alwarke, which is the translation into the the
the reality,
was also something which was essential in the
relationship between Al Usul, fundamentals and principles,
the means, the
and then the objectives. But this is going
to be clearer
in our discussion tomorrow because my take, for
example, in Islamic economies that very often,
there is an Islamization of the means and
not of the goals.
And that's a problem.
If you just Islamize the structure, and in
fact, you want exactly the same goals as
the other. You want exactly the same profit
but what halal means.
Not questioning, it might be that the goal
in itself is not so halal.
Anyway, that's another question. Okay. I stop here.
So questions, if you have questions.
Okay. It's okay. We can go for the
the answers.
Okay. So,
your question
about,
just praying and,
and not being involved in the
I wouldn't go as far as as say
it's a it's a shirk because some of,
the the Muslim women and men, they are
very sincere in the way they are coming
back to to to God and and
the way they pray, the way they fast.
Now their understanding of being a Muslim
is a reduction,
not
a distortion
that you can
at the point
is
the way they deal with the world. It
could be, for example, that some are
following the 5 pillars or the 4 practical
pillars after Isha'ada, the 4 practical pillars of
Islam.
And, as the prophet, peace be upon him,
said that you can be saved with this,
this this, salvation is possible,
As long as
in your even if you are not active
in the world,
your goals are clear and there is no
shake in the fact that you end up
being obsessed with having and with your family,
you know, and and Manuel Banun,
So you can be as
practicing,
not being active. And at the end, you
are completely obsessed with your,
family to the point that the family becomes
the goal and not serving justice and serving
humanity.
So it
as long as,
the goals are clear in a very simple
and ordinary life, I wouldn't go as far
as to say it's shirk.
But at the end, we I'll also want
to widen the the scope here by saying
all of us here,
all of
us, we are facing types of, shirk in
hidden shirk, shirk al kavi in our life,
in everything that we are doing.
Even here, what I'm doing here, it might
be that in my heart, there is something
which is,
not
completely
sincere, done for God, and I have to
check that. Everyone. So this is El Mora
Qaba yet. You have to check. So I
wouldn't generalize by saying all of, of,
of the people,
but I would say this reduction is making
it a potential danger that you fall into,
shirk,
with this. So if I can just so
if if, say, the rituals become more of
like a a culture of doing things rather
than an essence of worshiping
trying to better yourself
and and better the world. Could that be
like the means is taking more fire to
you? Yes. Yes. If, for example, you end
up only praying and say, you know, I
pray 5 times a day and this is
at the end, it's becoming the goal of
your life and not this as a means
to
be a witness to change the world and
to change yourself. Of course, it could be.
And some
are are praying in a very cultural way.
And more than that, is some are fasting
in a very cultural way.
And and many of us, you know, you
know, it's it's,
Sharul Ramadan, it's a it's a it's a
a month of revolution.
It has to change everything.
It's just impossible during Ramadan to eat more
than when you eat
during the other 11 months.
And this is the reality of it. It's
just just not that. It's not the point.
It cannot be. So it means that there
is something which is we are focusing on
the means and not understanding the very essence
of Ramadan.
So this is shirk.
So and you are doing with Ramadan what,
sometimes is done with in the Christian tradition
with, Christmas.
And some were looking at the Christians and
say, look at what they are doing. It's
all about family and spending.
Okay.
Look at Ramadan.
Family and spending and eating.
That's
anyway,
I wouldn't say I wouldn't say that fitra
is conscience. Fitra is even
conscience, our consciousness,
our way of saying La Illa you know,
you say La Illaha Illama when you reach
the age of reason.
When you eat you you and the the
the age of reason is why you have
this consciousness. There is a conscience that you
conscience is what what is making Fitra being
Iman.
Iman
become this relationship when with your mind, with
your heart, with your awareness, you understand
that you are connected to God. So so
you come with your conscience to confirm.
So this is why we call it a
shahada.
I testify
with my mind the very essence of who
I am with the spark, with El Fitra
and me.
How you describe it in English? What? For
the many of Fethra, I think. I tried
to do it for them. Thank you. It
means that, I have to take I struggle
with it. That's what that's what I asked.
So what I was saying is that El
Ficharai is the natural state, these natural attractions
that we have yearning towards the transcendent that
he put at the very beginning of the
creation in the other verse that I was
mentioning.
So
this is something which is essential
here.
So,
is there ethical truth in other tradition?
By the very essence of Islam, yes, there
is ethical truth. And there is something that
even in the furqaha, when they are dealing
with
the
the the the legal,
they are saying, anything
that was before
and it's not
rejected or not against what we have in
our tradition. It's part of our Sharia. So,
today, I achieved
your religion
means not only the 23 years, it has
through history, as the Muslims believe that this
is the final message is to take
everything which was positive and not in contradiction
with Islam from other tradition. So that's that's
one. The second about salvation, this is a
a a a big
a big discussion.
To be clear, the great majority of the
scholars
are saying the only way to be saved
is when you know the truth
to accept it. So when you know Islam,
it's to accept
it. Because kuf is not
that you reject without knowing.
Is we reject
while you know. So once the sheikh was
asked, what about all these people who know
nothing about Islam? Are they going to be,
in,
hellfire?
He said, I don't know about them, but
I know that my responsibility
is to spread the message. About them, they
are to be ignorant and not to choose
the truth doesn't you you can't just you
have to be very cautious. The best for
me in this situation is to say, Allahu'ala.
God knows best.
Because
people who never
so the people who know, who are rejecting
the great majority of the scholars are saying
if you are in a state where you
know and you reject, this is what we
call kufr, and this is rejecting and denying
the truth.
What about the Christians and what about the
Jews and what about all the other traditions?
Ahl al Khitab.
So once again,
the great majority are saying,
so those who are rejecting and there is
a
because kuf
in the Islamic tradition has many levels. Al
kufr al Akbar, the the the the highest
level is to
reject God, that there is or or to
have,
politics, for example, and to have not associating,
other gods. The second could be
denying part of the truth. So for example,
Ahl al Khattab are not the people at
the highest level of Korf. They are denying,
for example, that the last messenger is coming
with the last message. So they are denying
part of the truth while they are accepting
that there is one god. So this is
why kufr is not,
disbelief. We cannot just translate this. Even within
the Islamic tradition, you have kufr, bidun kufr,
meaning that you acknowledge God, you acknowledge the
last message, but you deny something which is
part of the truth within the whole system.
So it's kufr bidun kufr. So you there
is you are a believer but you deny
part of the truth which cannot can be
essential or not. So if, for example, if
you come and you say, I'm a Muslim
and I don't think that 5 times a
day I have to pray.
It's not there.
And say, okay. That's the problem.
So this is because
you acknowledge, but there is something which is
you are denying part of the truth.
About the salvation, the great majority are saying
Islam. The religion in the sight of God
is Islam. So the great majority are saying,
no. There is no salvation for people who
are not Muslims.
Others,
and and this is also within the the
the tradition, in the Sufi tradition, the philosophical
tradition, and and some of the scholars were
very cautious with this by saying,
Islam here might be the generic understanding that
I was talking about. Is that acknowledging God?
So
but this is a minority position in the
Islamic tradition, saying salvation is only for Muslim.
Now, once again,
when you have in the Quran,
the fact that God had willed this diversity,
that he's saying that he gave to every
tradition,
its path. It's
your path and your praxis.
The best answer for me on this,
it's an answer with just the highest level
of my knowledge.
I don't know.
Because I I think that to come with
these reductive things, knowing that god
had willed this diversity, and he's
asking us about the diversity and asking us
acknowledging 1 God.
And then when you acknowledge that there is
1 God and you behave the right way,
if you are a Christian, if you are
a Jew,
I don't think it's for me
or for any human being to be able
to go to speak about the salvation
or not.
In
in legal terms,
the the great majority of the scholars who
are going to say or are responding,
no.
You have to be Muslims to be safe.
I think that you have to acknowledge that
there is one God and to behave the
right way. Of course, as a Muslim, I
think that the final,
answer, the final message is the the truth.
But as to the sincerity of the people,
what they have done, the way they have
behaved,
I don't want to to speak about this.
And and I think that
this sense of humility when it comes to
the final judgment, say, this is God's decision.
I don't know.
And I don't think that I'm going be
to be more with the truth
when I'm saying everything is else is wrong.
You know, this kind of, I'm the only
we have this is this,
these trends within Islam as well. What people
is calling,
So the the saved sect,
meaning all the others are lost. So if
you are not with him I I don't
like this business, and I think that we
do should not do this at the Islamic
level with all the others. Have to suspend
the final judgment
knowing that from an Islamic perspective, of course,
when you know about the last message, this
is where the salvation is going to be.
I was asked once
about Mother
Teresa. Where is she going to be?
I said, I'm sorry. I don't know. I
don't know about myself. How I'm going to
say about her? So, my concern is about
trying my best with what I know. And
as to the destiny of the the people,
I I would I I would urge the
Muslims, but exactly like I was dealing with,
know, the the the the previous pope, I
knew him, cardinal Ratzinger,
before he was,
Benedict 16. And he was very tough on
this.
No
salvation if you are not within the church
and Christian. And and he was sincere. He
was but at the same time, I think
we have to be very cautious with this
final judgment on others and and and I
would say I would like the same in
and I don't think that this is a
critical question. I don't think that I'm stronger
if I make the other weaker.
In the it's it's it's sincerity and acknowledging
that there is one God and then
but it's a very important point because at
the end, it's where how do we deal
with this humility as to the final judgment
is important
between religions. But even, as I said, when
we we we are talking about behavior and
being, as I said before.
The
about
what I'm I want
is the spirit, is
which
is the the the the god's spirit that
he is,
suffleting into our being. So when the roar
is coming in our body, this is what
we call enafs.
Sometimes, we have a problem because in the
English translation,
enafs is the soul, enafs is the being,
enafs is the the the the person.
So so there are here interpretations that could
be different. But at the end,
even if you speak about,
it's where,
the God's spirit is coming to your the
the the the embodiment of your person. It
could be physical and it could be spiritual.
But enough is this connection between the 2.
And in our life, it's our the spirit
in our body.
It's the spirit in our the physical dimension.
Even though we have to be very cautious
with the translation in in English,
as well.
Your question is is a is a very
important one. When I was saying coming back
to your heart,
it's this is where
it's not coming back to your heart the
way your heart your heart is now.
It's struggling to come back to
questioning,
and coming back to the essence of your
heart. So there is here
monitoring yourself,
monitoring the way you deal with this,
on ethical terms with your own self. So
it's not just to take for granted the
way you are now and my heart is
saying this. So, for example,
in the spiritual journey, to be very cautious,
very cautious with this, confusion between the spiritual
side and the emotional side. Thinking that the
emotional is spiritual and they, okay, I feel
it, so it's good. No. So this is,
coming back to your heart
is a journey of ethical questioning.
You understand what I mean? Ethical questioning. It's
not just I come no. It's ethical questioning.
And the best way
to question your heart
is, three things. If you come to, for
example, Ikhya Oluwmeddin,
and what he is taught by, by the
the scholars in the the mystical
tradition
is
three thing. When you come back to your
heart,
do you feel at peace or not?
Are you at peace with your heart or
not? And and meaning this,
that if there is, you know, in the
definition of sin
that the companion came to the prophet, alaihis
salam, he said,
What is in yourself and it's troubling? It's
you are not at peace.
So in fact, any one of of us
in this room
knows
that
this piece is much more a hope and
a goal than a reality in our daily
life. We're always
we always have tensions,
but you have to check that. This is
1.
How are you going to what is the
visible translation of this tension?
The inconsistent reality between
your principles and your behavior.
Okay?
You are at peace when you behave the
way you believe.
No one in this room
is getting this.
We are struggling to make our behavior
close to our principles.
Everyone in this room
should know what it means to have this
spiritual humility that we are all dealing with
contradictions.
So when you come back to you, you
have to first get the question of your
peace in your heart. 2nd, the consistency
between,
between the 2. And the third thing, which
is part of an iman,
is checking. It's what is called al muraqaba,
is that you have to check.
For example, Abu Bak, Omar ibn al Khattah,
who is one of the tougher in the
way he was promoting justice around, He heard
that one companion knew about the hypocrites, and
he wanted to say, do you smell
the,
hypocrisy on me this morning? Saying that he's
checking his own hypocrisy.
So this is where
your behavior,
your consciousness,
your behavior,
and your,
peace are elements that are helping you to
question this coming back to your heart. So
it's not a free journey to your heart
and you take it as it is. No.
You question
and you assess,
as I said in ethical terms.
What I I said about the I I
didn't say that private property
okay. I'm I'm good.
Private property is not, no. Private property, it's
accepted in Islam,
but with
limitations
and requirement
and conditions.
So in the name of prior property,
you cannot use it without
ethical,
conditions and ethical reference. This is what I
meant.
But the fact and and and by all
why you can't
use it without the ethical reference because, at
the end, this,
private property, it's
management
of a property, not the ownership.
And the owner is telling you,
I am giving you this with the condition
that you behave
ethically in everything that you are doing.
So you cannot exploit people in the name
of this is my property. No. By and
this is where,
there should be a clear understanding of private
property,
even and especially now in the liberal neoliberal
system that, in the name of private property,
anything is possible. You can behave in an
analytical way and we disagree with that.
About your question about, neutral.
Yes. No. I about,
yes. In fact,
have you read Nietzsche?
You should.
And he said something which was very interesting.
In fact, there is something in Islam
that was part of what was worrying him.
In fact,
the positive,
which what we call neutral at the beginning,
your state, your fitra
at the beginning,
is directly connected to God in something which
is beyond
the ethical qualification.
It's innocent, of course. It's beyond. Innocence is
beyond.
When you look at a child,
his or her innocence
is beyond
moral qualification.
Why? Because morality come with consciousness.
It's not good or bad. It's not, no.
It's good. Then then how is that? No,
no. Good not in a moral term.
Good by the fact that it's connected to
God,
as innocence is good but it's not ethically
qualified.
Innocence is beyond its good and bad, but
it's positive in itself.
Why am I saying this?
Because Nietzsche
was obsessed with how can we go beyond
good and bad.
There's something. And you know he ended, up
by saying what?
It's how the lion
becomes how the camel
becomes a lion
and the lion becomes a child.
Innocent.
For
us, our struggle with the ethical
is to come back to the positive
state of the beginning being
the the beginning, which is directly connected to
God
beyond the ethical qualification.
So we use ethics
to try to come back to this
original state where we are connected to God.
So this is where and
alfana,
which is a problem in some of the
ethical in the the the the spiritual. Is
when you come close to him
beyond the qualification of good and bad. And
you know what it is?
For the child is innocence
and for you, it's what?
What is going to be beyond the moral
qualification when you are close to God?
Kol,
loving the God,
which is something which is beyond the the
the the the very narrow
legal qualification and ethical qualification.
So what I'm saying,
is neutral neutral in ethical term, but it's
it's positive. It's it's the way you are
connected to God straight in your innocence. What
we are trying to do is through our
ethical struggle,
rejecting the the bad,
choosing choosing the good to try to come
back to this original state where you are
connected to him out of love.
Isn't that a whole journey? We are using
that as a reference Yeah. To return to
good. Yeah. And I understand To the original
good, which is beyond Yes. The tension. But
ultimately, our behavior is referenced with this
ethical notion of good and bad. Yeah. That's
so that's what I'm saying. Isn't it? It's
a reconciliation.
You choose the good in your actions to
come back to the good in your being.
So we are saying it's good.
Yes. But I understand your the the problem.
It's it's,
it's the original good which is beyond
the the tension between the bad and the
good.
Why do we have to say that, no.
No. It's it's it's innocent.
Just the way No. It's innocence. Oh, no.
No. No. It's it's it might
neutral. It might be, a misleading term, but
innocence is an essential term.
In Islam, innocence is an essential term To
the point
that the prophet, peace be upon him, and
companion happened twice in the Hadith and it
is in Bukhary.
He dreamt of the sons and the daughters
of the people who were attacking him, Mina
al Mushrikin, and the people who were against
him, he saw them in paradise.
How come? These people who are killing us,
their kids, yes, because their kids are innocent.
The they are and and the fathers and
the mothers are not. So we have to
be very cautious. If you look at, any
child,
and this is why it might be very
difficult to lose
a child.
But in the spiritual dimension,
his or her state is
innocence and salvation
for the child.
He or she is saved.
You lose you lose it here,
but in the spiritual dimension, there is something
in his or her being which is beyond
anything that can be judged, and then he's
saved. And that's because
Because they they are in the state of
fitra.
Exactly.
So so we agree. So that
So what where is our disagreement?
Again, very fine. When I'm saying why I'm
saying neutral, and you're not willing to use
the word neutral. And you're saying, you know,
since in the respective of our,
moral reference of that being, like, good and
bad. And
we cannot separate the 2. Separate what? Separate,
the innocence as as something, you know, granted
positive.
But, actually, to attain that innocence,
the whole reference we're going through is actually
good and bad. Yeah.
So we agree. And I'm saying there is
a contradiction. I'm saying then say that's that's,
not innocent. That's rather, you know, a neutral,
a a 0. It's like a base Okay.
In a sense, it's 0, if you want.
We agree with that. No. We do not
know that. Nothing neutral. Okay. I have to
think about it, but I don't see it's
a it's a question of semantic here, but
what you call neutral. You know what? Think
about it. Just during the break, think about
your definition of innocence.
Not now. Not now. During the break. Well,
you're not just
And impatience as well.
Yeah.
Yes. This is the whole weekend.
Yes. I wanted I wanted to start okay.
So the last one is about,
yes, very quickly. The question that, you were
putting about angels. No. I didn't say that,
I said,
what was understood by the scholars? About what
is
defining
the dignity of human beings is two things,
knowledge and freedom.
At the same time, in ethical terms, God
creating,
humanity and the angels,
sowing this,
seeing this, they they what they were saying
is that this
this creation is going to corrupt.
So using
their freedom in a very bad way to
corrupt and to spread bloodshed.
So the only thing that I was saying
here is that God responding is whatever they
do with their freedom, which is going to
corrupt the earth, I know about what I'm
doing
through creating them things that you don't know,
which is exactly the same for you.
Don't you sometimes look at the world and
say,
what is the goal?
What is the aim? Look at the people
the way they are behaving.
So you can't ask this question, and the
answer to this question, which is a fair
question, it's natural. Do you look at the
people the way they are behaving,
and the way you sometimes are behaving? I
say, what's the goal?
And then say,
he says,
I know things that you don't know. So
the secret of us being here, we don't
know. So it's much more humility
as to the judgment,
much more than something which has to do
with our freedom.
Okay? That's it. Thank you.