Sherman Jackson – Sharia Law – Theocracy or Democracy

Sherman Jackson
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The speakers discuss the importance of Islam in modernity, including its cultural implications and its cultural implications for the state of the world. They emphasize the need to understand the legitimacy of Islam and find compatible elements with modern political laws. They also discuss the history and meaning behind Islamic law, including its potential political impact and the need for acceptance of Islam as a majority. The speakers stress the importance of finding compatible elements with modern political laws and finding loyalty to religion.

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			Thanks. On behalf of the Muslim students awareness network and Islamic Society at Stanford
University. I'd like to welcome you all to the second part of our annual Islamic awareness series,
entitled, this year our jihad to reform the struggle to define our faith. First of all, we'd like to
acknowledge and thank our co sponsors, the Vice Provost of Undergraduate Education, Dr. John
Brockman, the Stanford Law School, the bounty program in Islamic Studies, the Department of
Religious Studies, the Office of Religious Life, for free, the Freeman Spogli Institute, the Billy
Achilles fun, and the Bank of International Center. Without their support, we would not have been
		
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			able to bring such amazing speakers to campus here. The title of today's talk is laying down the
Sharia law, democracy or theocracy. Question one, Dr. Sam Jackson, professor of Islamic Studies at
the University of Michigan, we'll discuss whether
		
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			this Islamic legal system and code of conduct and religious practice is compatible at all in random
such as schooling liberalism, democracy, secularism, and human rights. Too often, we have had this
conception that all that is needed is to open the source text of Islam, and full fledged fully
developed economic, social and political system pop out, ready to be implemented as Sharia law.
Furthermore, the idea of the Sharia as a system in which the state has exclusive authority over the
creation of a uniform legal food was not present in pre modern Western societies. And it is here
that the Islamic legal tradition that originated in those societies can offer insights on issues
		
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			such as the relationship between the religious and political orders in the formation of public
policy, in order for Muslim societies to define a democratic and pluralistic form of government,
that at the same time is representative of their historical and social realities.
		
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			Before we get started, I have the great honor of introducing our speaker today, Professor Sarah
Jackson received his PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in Oriental Studies Islamic communities
in 1990. Presently, he is a professor of Arabic and Islamic studies with a professor of law and
professor of Afro American Studies at the University of Michigan. From 1987 to 89. He served as
Executive Director for the Center of Arabic study abroad in Cairo, Egypt.
		
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			Professor Jackson has taught at the University of Texas at Austin, Indiana University, and Maine
State University. In addition to numerous articles on Islamic law, theology and history, he is the
author of the following books, Islamic law and state, the constitutional jurisprudence should have
been currently on the boundaries of theological currents in Islam, Abrahamic faiths, Africa, and
most recently saw as a black American looking to birth the third resurrection. Professor Jackson is
co founder of the song about the American Learning Institute for Muslims,
		
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			of primary instructor Haddix programs and a member of his board of trustees. He is also a former
member of the State of North America, past president of the city of colors includes the issue of
North America, and a past trustee of the North American Islamic trust. He is he's a thought after
speaker and has lectured throughout the US and in numerous countries abroad. Please join me in
welcoming.
		
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			Good evening.
		
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			Thank you very much for that very kind. Introduction. I do have something about the whole question
begin with Dawn, I was standing there listening to all the things that my lecture is going to
include. And I was wondering how you come on that before you actually heard my lecture.
		
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			And
		
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			I've had to make a sort of executive decision here as how to proceed. I have prepared a lecture. But
I'm a bit afraid that if I don't do meaning that I might sort of float off into the ionosphere, and
certainly check technicalities and issues that are germane to the field of Islamic studies but might
not be quite that much interest to those of you who are here. So in lieu
		
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			that, what I'm going to try and do is simply talk to you. And what I hope will turn out to be an
intelligent and
		
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			comprehensible form about the whole enterprise of Islam, Islamic law, and particularly the context
of Muslims as they negotiate their place in the American project. And in that regard, I want to make
it very clear that my primary concern here will be on this not the standard of law and the American
state, and not, not the states of, of the of the Middle East, or the Muslim world. And I think that,
obviously, there'll be any number of questions about the latter. Once I'm done, and I'll be more
than happy to try and address them, to the extent that I that I can. Alright, so let me begin by
saying the following. I want to contextualize my remarks this afternoon, by pointing to the
		
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			following observation, and I think it's very important for us to recognize this, but in order to
arrive at the needed degree of objectivity, as we proceed to try and think both intelligently and
fairly about the enterprise of the state of the world, and more specifically in the United States.
And that observation has to do with the fact that the West has for some time now enjoyed a certain
power of definition. But that is to say that it has succeeded at producing understandings of both
itself, and others that the latter has felt compelled to somehow indulge more respond to. And in
this sense, the West in general and the United States in particular, now, in particular, now, as the
		
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			leading sort of representative of the West, has found himself in a position where it has been able
to play big brother, and by my brother, I'm not referring to the popular understanding of all well,
where we generally think of the eradication of private space for what I'm talking about is the
ability to sort of incentivize others into seeing the world in a manner that confirms us
sensibilities, and interests. The theme I have in mind is sort of a crowning gesture of the entire
book 1984, where the protagonist, Winston is put into a chair, and the official of the state holds
up four fingers and says to Winstead, how many fingers am I holding up? And Winston says four. And
		
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			the state official says, No, I'm holding up five fingers, and then he tweaks the dialogue pane
chair. And this continues all the way up to the point that once that finally explains that he's
trying to see five fingers. Now a way in which this result is relevant to discussions on Islam,
particularly in the West, is that Muslims
		
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			feel a certain pressure to try and prove that their religion is compatible with this for that real
or a sensible, Western norm. And this often has the effect of putting us up putting us in a position
where we're trying to speak across sort of conflicting values. When we're talking about Islam. We
simply speak about the slab for which we sort of oscillate between speaking from the context of a
medieval pre modern war and the modern war. And we oscillate between East and West, we oscillate
between talking in terms of assimilation to the American project or participation in that. And the
fact that this is almost
		
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			invariably a certain amount of abstraction.
		
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			Whereby we end up talking about an Islam that is not really real in terms of the way that it's
concretize on the ground, in the life of any particular community. But it's sort of an abstraction
that hovers somewhere over over the Atlantic. And this makes Islam a very sort of
		
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			elastic construct, that can be stretched in many different directions and outputs, many, many
different possibilities emerge, some of them being justifiable or defensible, others lesser
		
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			now
		
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			what I want to do is to break out of these liminal spaces and talk about this in the very concrete
context of America, that is to say, I want to plant my feet firmly in America and speak about the
whole enterprise of Hamas.
		
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			Some kind of SLAM can come to terms with the American project.
		
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			Now, I want to say that this is not a blind capitulation to the dollar in order. In fact, what's
most important about this particular approach, at least in my mind, is that it assumes that Muslims
are possessed of agency, that awesome community in America is not simply some kind of empty vessel
into which this sort of pre mixed effluvium called a slab is poured, and then sort of a quickened
into this prefabricated Muslim community. On the contrary, Muslims in America are possessed of
agency, and a way that Islam comes out looking more dependent on the kinds of choices that Muslims
in America made. And part of the importance of these kinds of exchanges is that they are very
		
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			fundamentally informed the kinds of discussions that will go into the kinds of choices that Muslims
will make, I want to make it clear as I proceed, that what is ultimately because in America will
depend on time. And so there's a certain amount of sort of
		
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			the sort of theoretical dimension to what I want to say, because in terms of what Islam actually
comes out to be, there's a ton of elements that cannot be ignored. Now, I'm gonna proceed on the
basis of four basic questions. One, the legitimacy, Muslims living in a non Muslim democracy, to the
legitimacy of Muslims being loyal to a Muslim democracy. Three, the question of Muslim Solidarity
was the government and the people of a non Muslim democracy and for the legitimacy of Muslims
sharing goals with the peoples and the government, a non Muslim democracy. Now, the question of
Muslim Revenant? Is it a real sense of the leading question here that informs all of the other
		
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			questions, because after all, if it is not legitimate for Muslims to live in a non Muslim democracy,
then of course, everything else that they say about loyalty, about solidarity, that cetera, is sort
of a makeshift holding pattern that they will stick to only as long as they feel necessary or
necessary, based on the level of power or the kind of situatedness that they come into, at which
time, they may very well discard this particular approach. And so if we can establish the legitimacy
of Muslims living in a non Muslim democracy, then of course, the kinds of answers that they prefer
to questions having to do with loyalty, and solidarity can be invested with a summons, credibility.
		
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			Now,
		
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			we have heard, I think, many sort of warnings about the extent to which Muslims are given to the
tendency to sort of tell American society at large, whatever it wants to hear, with regard to what
Islam is and what it represents. And I think that the first thing that we need to understand about
this or to consider about this, is that most of the focus in what has been said about critics are
the Muslim voice in America has been based on an analysis of immigrant communities in America. In
fact, there is a reading assumption, to the effect that all we need to do is look at the immigrant
community. And that will tell us all in everything we need to know about Islam, and the
		
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			possibilities of Islam. And I think that it's important to stop and know here
		
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			that there is perhaps a difference between how an immigrant community and Muslims who come from
other lands have sort of come to their articulations of Islam, the relationship between Islam and
the American state, and how that indigenous community would do the same thing. In other words,
questions of loyalty, question of solidarity, questions of empathy, will be very different for an
indigenous Muslim community than as a community that is born in this country that emerges out of the
great people of this country that has a history in this country, and those who come to this country
from another land. And the point that we made here is not to get indigenous again.
		
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			in immigrant communities, but to point to a nother range of possibilities in terms of what Islam can
be in America, that is to say that people who are Muslims who are thoroughly committed to their
religion can on a visceral and a very natural level, coming into a mindset where as Muslims, they
feel a sense of solidarity, they feel a sense of belongingness, they feel that sense of empathy with
the people of the society in which they live. In fact, I'm reminded of this regard of an incident
that happened not long after 911, there was this big meeting in a church in Philadelphia, was
sponsored by Tavis Smiley, it was called the state of black America. And this is, of course, shortly
		
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			after 911. And it was still allowed. So not 11 Mania in the air. And the moderator for this
particular section, asked a question of the past on the stage. And he asked, What can we as
Americans do to make Muslims feel more welcome in this country? And sort of before he can get the
question now, fully, the Reverend Reverend Al Sharpton stopped him and said the following. Wait a
minute, we want to get something straight.
		
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			Because we must not lose sight of the fact that the Muslim community is already welcomed among us.
Because in the black community in America, there is not a person in this church. He said, who
doesn't have a brother, or a father, or his son, a sister, a cousin, someone in their lives will
either relate to them by close to them by some relationship, who's not a Muslim. All right. And so
the very idea that there is this essential contradiction between Muslims
		
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			identifying and having a sense of solidarity with non Muslims in a society like America, I think
that that notion must be must be challenged.
		
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			But this is not really the fundamental point I want to make here. So let me move on to that. There
are some very influential people who have
		
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			in the academy,
		
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			who have put forth the view that if Muslims are to be true to their religion, it is impossible for
them to coexist peacefully and anonymously with non Muslims. And I want to get this one name here so
that it's established. And I'm not trying to, how should I put this, I'm not trying to call anyone
out, as it were. But I do want to establish that I'm not making this up. And that there are actually
works out there have been published that you can console and see what it is that I'm saying. And I'm
talking here about Professor Patricia kromm Princeton University. In her latest book, she makes the
claim essentially, that as I said, it is impossible. And by the way, for those of you who are
		
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			writing things, now, that book is called God's law.
		
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			She makes the claim that it is impossible for Muslims if they are going to be sincere to their
religion, to live honestly
		
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			and peacefully with us. This is because she had according to her is nothing less than an institution
of religious imperialism.
		
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			Right? And Muslims, all this, understand that it must have do that influence as a religious duty,
and only after they have successfully fulfill that duty that Muslims can peacefully and in good
conscience live in any society. Professor Cardinal goes on to make the point that this is again, a
religious duty. And in this context, non Muslims need not be guilty of any hostility. I think the
Muslims, in fact, and I'm quoting here, their very existence is a cause of war and the Pope. Now she
goes on to point out that the bottom of the slide above please dichotomy.
		
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			Donal harbor dichotomy is a religious prescription for Muslims, that is to say that Muslims
prescriptively divide the world into a abode of Islam. And the goal of all Muslims can live and a
bowl of Islam. But the only action that the
		
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			legitimate for Muslims to assume visa vie and above before is one of hostility. Now, what I want to
do
		
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			the implication of this, of course, is that Muslims who come to live in a non Muslim power can only
adjust to their reality by relaxing their commitment to truths.
		
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			And this is one of the ideas that then there is some credence to the idea that when Muslims speak
about peace about Tama about a pluralism about coexistence, this is really nothing more than a
tactical maneuver. It's designed to sort of buy time, and to the point that society sort of falls
asleep, and wakes up one morning to find themselves in front of this brand Muslim power that has
that look, to show its real faith.
		
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			Now
		
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			by the way, these are very serious people who are writing this, this is not popular literature as
well. This is this is this comes from the highest echelons of Medicare.
		
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			Now, what I want to do is
		
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			call attention to the fact that there are many aspects of this common religious tradition that are
the result of history and religion. And this becomes a very difficult thing for many of us to get
our minds around. And at times, I wonder how much of this is indebted to the sort of
		
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			enlightenment or post enlightenment attitude that we have towards religion, and the context of which
Islam become sort of the quintessential pre enlightenment religion, the religion in which people
sort of still believe in that that stuff, still really believe literally, in the dictates
		
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			of revenue revelation. And for that reason, religion is the explanation for virtually everything
that they do.
		
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			Right? I don't know how I've heard this from credible sources.
		
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			Someone told me that right after a seven second happen in seven, seven, I'm trying to be hidden.
Okay. Seven is the bombing in in London,
		
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			a Prime Minister Tony Blair said to someone go out and get your coffee and
		
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			of course, it's supposed to explain why, why, why, why SEVEN, SEVEN happens and and the more I was
addressing here is that part of this may be indebted to the idea that for for sort of pre pre
enlightenment, religion, religion is the answer for everything. So if you want to know why Muslims
are doing what they do, or why they believe what they believe, you need any consulting nothing more
than that.
		
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			On this idea, I want to challenge and I want to challenge a fundamental
		
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			and I want to do so through a reading of one of the most authoritative jurists Muslim jurists from
the classical Muslim tradition. This is a man by the name of Mr. White
		
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			man.
		
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			He was a
		
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			a journalist of the shadow a School of Law, and he wrote a big 14 Volume overs on Islamic law. He
was a major authority in the field, and his books are still held on to steam and Weaver with
authority today.
		
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			And this book
		
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			is clear that the designation of Mullah with a slap above a piece is not a religious prescription,
but rather an historical description. That is to say, it is not a prescription for how Muslims
should look at the world. It is a description of how Muslims around the world to me that is to say
that Muslims basically look out at the world and discover that the only places where they can live
as communities in peace are places of waste, they have political
		
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			when they find themselves as minorities and non Muslim lands, they find it very difficult and by the
lens to the pre modern world. Now, they find it very difficult to survive as communities. Now, where
the distinction, Ebola, the Ebola piece comes back. And the proof of this is that
		
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			is
		
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			explicit
		
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			in saying that any time,
		
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			any time a Muslim
		
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			finds himself in a country where he or she is able to preserve their religion, and practice the
basic rudiments of their religion, even if they are not able to spread their religion, their
religion, by persuasion, or by the sword, the mere fact that they are able to practice the rudiments
of their religion, renders that country and above themselves
		
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			renders the country an abode of Islam. And Mr. B goes on to say basically, that a Muslim should find
his or herself in such a situation, in a non Muslim politic, where they are able to practice the
fundamental tenants of their religion, then that Muslim should not migrate from their country, and
ultimately gives the implication that the reason for this is that if he's able, or she's able to
practice their religion, by leaving that country, that country would be less likely to be guided to
the slab. All right, now, we don't need to overdose on some of the sort of medieval connotations of
		
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			5g here. But the real point for us to recognize is that clearly, the whole notion of Ebola
		
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			and Ebola of peace is based on historical reality, not on religious prescription. Right. And
therefore, if Muslims should find themselves in a general sense, in position, or in a historical
circumstance or context, where in which it is possible for them to practice their their religion,
then certainly, if we apply the logic, that the render the place where they live, and
		
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			now, Muslims here in America,
		
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			have constitutional guarantees,
		
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			freedom of religion, and yeah.
		
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			While they may differ on our understandings, or interpretation of how that is often concretized,
certainly the idea of overt religious persecution, but it's not one that sits well in the context of
the American constitutional board. And here, again, we run into a problem that is oftentimes
confronted when thinking about Islam.
		
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			When we think about Muslim communities, in non Muslim policies, the tendency is to assume this dog
the reality of criminal narratives, in which religious persecution would probably be the norm.
Rather than think about modern reality. A modern reality says that that is the United States when
that is not the case. All right, and what am I trying to get us to do is to ground our
understandings and thoughts about the sun, in the concrete balance in concrete reality, the United
States, now
		
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			there are there are many in the candidate who would
		
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			sort of locate Islam in a particular time and place and in particular mindset. And then I'm drawing
on there, that this Mindset by all Muslims to that particular kind of standard, and on the faculty
kind of understanding Muslims who live in modern politics, like America can only do so if they're
not really, really, really committed to Islam. But now, I'm gonna go on and be fair here, because
this is not simply a tendency that we find in Muslims. Muslims are also known to carry out these
kinds of ideas. And one of the major ideas the disregard that I think, doesn't want to compete most
of ability to come to terms with their reality in the modern West, is this idea of
		
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			and have you made it? I do called Hacking meow can explain that in just a second. And this is a
very, very well known idea in sort of
		
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			Muslim activist circles. It was popular popularized by the Egyptian ideologues say,
		
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			a little bit for him, the fact of standing among among you. Now basically, the idea of media says
the following
		
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			like that, that part of what the Muslim testimony of faith entails is that God, and God alone is the
repository of all fundamental rights and obligations. In that context, anyone who recognizes manmade
rights and obligations, basically challenges God's right rightful monopoly over the hanging down of
law. In other words, to the extent that Muslims recognize men may law and manmade policies, they are
guilty of violating Islamic monotheism by attributing to someone other than God, the right to make
laws to confer rights and impose of obligations now.
		
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			And more duty and those who subscribe to this notion
		
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			or innocence, aided by the fact that there was an extended, I mean, the whole idea of God being
repository of ultimate value, right, that is central to the religion of Islam. And there is no,
there's no justifiable cause for attacking or amount duty on that score. But to to move from there
to the idea that any man made law, that is to recognize any man made law
		
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			is to be guilty of violating Islamic monotheism, that is a stretch. And I've worked just
		
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			fine by the power.
		
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			In classical Islamic law, classical jurists always recognize a certain amount of legal discretion
that was recognized to whom the ruler can make laws that govern all kinds of things, from licensing
medical doctors, to requiring
		
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			makers to certify their needs, to
		
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			issuing licenses for people who will learn to teach
		
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			the lessons, etc. I mean, all of these things were aspects of laws and rules, that Muslim rule has
been handed down. And this was universally recognized as being a part of the rulers discretion. Now,
these were men made laws. All right, the only criteria that they had to say was that they not in any
way fundamentally violate the law of Islam. Outside of that, however, they recognize not only has
been legitimate, but perfectly necessary, because Islamic law is not a law that has every single
solitary detail, what we need to regulate, like, you're not gonna find speed limits in the
workplace.
		
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			And, of course, the ruler would have to come and implement some kind of rule that would regulate
that reality. This was a part of classical this lab, man made to be sure, but in no way, a violation
of that, right. Oh, Napoli over law, in fact, that one jurist who actually championed the idea that
what we need is to promote greater greater discretionary powers to the rule, not in order to
undermine the law, but actually to add to the efficacy of the law. And here we're talking about not
so called
		
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			sort of liberal thinkers, now we're talking about jurists who are at the heart of the American
Islamic legal tradition. In fact, some people who may habitually think of today as being as being
puritanical,
		
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			even Taymiyah, for example, and his students, in real time and Dosia championed the idea of giving
discretionary powers to the ruler in order to add to the efficacy of Islamic law, and in order to be
able to realize justice, in instances where the actual dictates of the mangos of Islamic law seems
to fall short.
		
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			So to give you an example of what I'm talking about, even the payment of dosi and says that this is
rather disturbing, so just hold on to your seats, but it's his example not mine.
		
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			If a man
		
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			mutilates his wife's *
		
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			we're not talking about circumcision here.
		
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			But if a man mutilates his wife's *
		
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			Then it becomes illegal for him to divorce.
		
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			And if he shouldn't divorce, either because he wants to or because she wants to, then he remains
financially responsible for her up until her death.
		
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			All right. Now this was clearly a violation of the letter of the law that he would find in any
manual of Islamic law.
		
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			Even claiming those he insisted that the rule will be given this kind of discretionary power in
order to be able to affect justice, in those instances, whereby, and literal application of the law
would lead to injustice. And he and his teacher in a media are explicit in saying that any place we
find justice, that has to be considered an application of asylum law. Now, my point here is not to
argue, you know, for the substance of these deductions on the part of these jurists in 72 question,
however, the whole idea that anytime that Muslims recognize a man made law, or a man made
conjunction, they are somehow guilty of engaging in acts of shepherd or a violation of Muslim
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:43
			monotheism. Now, there are all kinds of other examples of this, that we could, that we could point
to Muslims. And this is another problem that we find in work such as those of safe political, and
others is the following.
		
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			There's a fundamental difference, because what we have to consider here is the time period in which
we exist. And we happen to be on the tail end of the government in the Muslim world, that says a lot
of Islamic thought come out of the post colonial mode of thinking, that is to say, when Muslims were
trying to sort of reposition themselves in such a way that they could reclaim rights and positions
that they thought had been lost to them. All right. And part of that was to attack and to criticize
the prevailing.
		
00:37:26 --> 00:37:39
			And what you'll find in all these words, is a very virulent attack on Muslim rulers who refuse to
apply Islamic law. And that in itself, is it's fair enough.
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:40
			And
		
00:37:43 --> 00:37:54
			I mean, just how we feel when the government tries not to apply the Constitution. It's the same sort
of sentiment.
		
00:37:55 --> 00:38:19
			The problem, however, is that oftentimes these books are read with a sort of a false transfer
ability than that that is to say that we assume that that which applies, but could theoretically be
applied to a Muslim politic, that does not apply Islamic law applies equally to the politics that
does not apply.
		
00:38:21 --> 00:39:16
			And the same way that Muslims should compose a Muslim polity that does not apply Islamic law, they
should oppose a topic that does not apply some cloth. This is very problematic. And this was never
the opinion for the attitude of pre modern jurists, pre modern jurors recognize non Muslim policies
as legitimate, and the law of non Muslim politics as legitimate. And to make a very long story
short, this is very easily identified in the principle of what is called expert territoriality. And
then, without getting too technical here extraterritoriality produced institutions and Islamic law
that are standard features in the manuals of Islamic law, that granted for example, merchants from
		
00:39:16 --> 00:39:34
			non Muslim countries who were traveling in Islamic lands and exemptions from Islamic law. All right,
and, and allow for them to have their cases try according to the law of their own land. So if you
are a musician
		
00:39:37 --> 00:39:59
			and you got into a dispute with a gentleman merchant, right, Islamic law will allow Italian law to
adjudicate this dispute between the two of you, as opposed to impose Islamic law. All right, I mean,
this was this was the attitude. Clearly they understood that that is their law. That is a legitimate
law and we will see
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:55
			Like I was failing in this particular incident. And the point that I'm making here, again, is the
idea that a Muslims attitude towards a Muslim state that aligns God's law is not transferable to a
non Muslim state that does not have Islamic law. In fact, I want to sort of backtrack, and then in a
sense, and, and locate what is really at the heart of the sort of exaggerated opposition to
everything that can be identified as, as as manmade law, because in the modern Muslim psyche,
manmade law is has come to constitute an anathema when you hear that there's a very sort of sharp
visceral reaction, because it's understood to be not only a violation of what a flaunting of God's
		
00:40:55 --> 00:40:55
			law
		
00:40:57 --> 00:41:12
			cart the reason for that is this, as I said, in pre modern times, Muslims are comfortable with a
modicum of discretionary powers in the hands of a man. What happened is that
		
00:41:14 --> 00:41:48
			when modern Muslim states came into being, the state assumed a monopoly over the law. And when that
monopoly over the law, it sort of from a Muslim perspective, from the perspective of Muslim
activists, it abused that legal authority in an effort to supplant Islamic law with laws of foreign
foreign art. It's in that context, that math name gets equated with a disregard for a contempt for
God call.
		
00:41:49 --> 00:42:18
			In pre modern times, men may not have that connotation. And this is part of what we must be very
careful about when we're trying to talk about this man. Because if we're not careful about the space
in which we happen to be, we can equate men men, for example, with contempt for Islamic law, even in
a place like America, where that is, I hope, clearly an implication. All right. Now, this raises
		
00:42:20 --> 00:42:32
			another very important issue, and there are only a few others that I want to get to that I think is
very important to understand. And that is this, we tend to think of Islamic law,
		
00:42:34 --> 00:42:41
			as purely a matter of Muslim interpretation of Islamic scripture,
		
00:42:43 --> 00:42:44
			as therefore,
		
00:42:45 --> 00:43:00
			what renders something is planning is whether or not we can find some prescription or injunction
that urges or requires of Muslims that they pursue. A second thing
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:08
			is we want to know about the compatibility between Islam and democracy, for example.
		
00:43:12 --> 00:43:18
			What we look for is what where does n require Muslims to establish democracy?
		
00:43:19 --> 00:43:24
			And then the Muslims are sort of unable to show where the
		
00:43:25 --> 00:43:44
			dictates democracy, or whereas spontaneous reading of the format will lead to support for democracy,
then the attitude is that you see, you see, it's not enough to really support democracy. And when
Muslims say that they're just telling you what you want to hear. All right. Now, what I want to
		
00:43:47 --> 00:43:52
			what I want to try and convey to you is the fatwa
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:55
			from its conception,
		
00:43:56 --> 00:44:36
			Islamic law has always included a reflex that said, that in society, that is pre Muslim society,
that may be any number of ways of doing things, values and institutions that are perfectly fine. And
what what we as Muslim jurists will do is process these on the God of Scripture. And anything that
we find that is compatible with that, that is to say, does not violate that, we will then we ascribe
with this lens.
		
00:44:37 --> 00:44:46
			In other words, non Muslim institutions can become Islamic ones, by a simple act of describing them
with us.
		
00:44:48 --> 00:44:59
			So, for example, if you take some amid the symbol of Muslim societies, of course, I mean, the visual
symbol is of course at the mosque with you have your
		
00:45:00 --> 00:45:43
			You're, you're home and you're, you're here, you're nice. And a rat that does not come from a cabana
does not come from a practice of a profit center and have these types of things in, in medical homes
Tina was the topic was, Muslims only found these in non Muslim lands, and we inscribe them with
Islam, Mississippi. And they did this time and time again, with any number of legal institutions.
All right. So what we're looking at is that Muslims may come to America, and they may find things in
society, that beforehand did not put them that the practice of the Prophet did not put them, but
which can certainly certainly
		
00:45:44 --> 00:46:40
			be processed in a manner that they can be inscribed, but is that necessary, they can become Islamic,
not necessarily in the sense of being completely normative, or representative of an ideal, but
certainly acceptable from the point of view of one who wants to live a life that is, that entails a
serious commitment to religion. And so when we speak about Islamic Islamic law is not simply the
dictates of the man and the Sunnah. And provenance that is place, or time has never been a source of
Islamic law alone. And so when we talk about Islamic law in America, we should abandon this notion
that what that entails is Muslims coming to America, and simply superimposing In other words,
		
00:46:40 --> 00:46:45
			American society ended up from the perspective of Islam has no legitimacy.
		
00:46:46 --> 00:46:54
			And a really, truly committed Muslim community will certainly want to do work for the American
Water, taking the whole thing and why
		
00:46:55 --> 00:47:05
			wipe it out and replace it with an assignment. All right, this is none of the latest law. None of
the way it's done, the clock has.
		
00:47:06 --> 00:47:14
			And this is, again, Islam, it's most of our classical discretion. And just give you one idea
quickly.
		
00:47:16 --> 00:47:18
			That sort of underscores this fact.
		
00:47:20 --> 00:47:21
			If you go
		
00:47:23 --> 00:47:38
			to the table of contents, in any manual of Islamic law, classical Islamic law, you'll find all kinds
of chapters. All right, chapters on
		
00:47:40 --> 00:47:42
			surety chapters on
		
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48
			deck for getting into chapters. ON TOUR LIVE,
		
00:47:50 --> 00:47:52
			you'll find all of these challenges.
		
00:47:53 --> 00:48:37
			The fact of the matter is that these chapters are not reflective of either the dictates of the
Qur'an, all of a sudden, what we are reflected about is reality that was found in the last intuits,
the Muslims came. All right, that reduce dispute situations that the Muslims then institutionalized
invading Islamic law. So many of these institutions come from number of Muslim lands and non Muslim
backgrounds. Some of them are accepted in total, some of them only after a certain amount of
modification or adjustment. All right, but but this is the way typically that Islamic Law Group.
Now,
		
00:48:38 --> 00:48:50
			this was a time when this was a numerical minority in these lands, in his book, conversion to Islam
in the medieval period.
		
00:48:53 --> 00:48:53
			Professor
		
00:48:54 --> 00:49:08
			Richard bullet from Columbia University makes the point that the central lands of Islam did not
become majority Muslims for centuries after the Congress.
		
00:49:09 --> 00:49:33
			Right? For centuries, Muslims were apolitical. That is to say they held power. But no America
minority societies over which they assume rule well, majority non Muslim. All right. Now, think
about the fact that all of the founders of the schools of Islamic law,
		
00:49:34 --> 00:49:39
			God during a period when Islam was a minority,
		
00:49:41 --> 00:50:00
			they all died in the third century of the Sun, which, according to Professor Bullock was before
Muslim society became predominantly Muslim. And so what we're seeing here is an ability on the part
of the staff to interact with non Muslim society in a manner that
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:23
			recognizes that there may be any number of aspects of that social border, political or economic
order that are perfectly legitimate from the perspective of Islam. And that can be adopted and
inscribed with a legitimacy in Islam. Now, let me move on to very quickly the issue of loyalty. And
here,
		
00:50:24 --> 00:50:53
			I've already alluded to the fact that we should not assume that whether or not Muslims are loyal to
a party like America is based solely upon on religion. And I think this is something that we need to
pay a special attention to, because what it does in a sense, is that it puts all the onus on the
Muslim community, and assumes that behind you, or
		
00:50:55 --> 00:51:14
			let us assume assumes that the American state is conducting itself in an ideal fashion, or that the
American social order is an ideal social order, I'm going to give you a sort of hypothetical that
hopefully will aid us in how we think about this thing about the fall
		
00:51:16 --> 00:51:17
			is janky.
		
00:51:25 --> 00:51:26
			It's, it's terrible.
		
00:51:28 --> 00:51:32
			You are a black American made me thirds,
		
00:51:34 --> 00:51:39
			you are driving on the back row of anywhere USA.
		
00:51:41 --> 00:51:42
			Your coverage that
		
00:51:44 --> 00:51:45
			you do not have a cell phone.
		
00:51:47 --> 00:51:56
			Therefore you have to get out of your car and his door to get help you get out of your car, you come
upon a pack of
		
00:51:59 --> 00:52:01
			half these houses of American flags hanging outside
		
00:52:03 --> 00:52:03
			the other half.
		
00:52:06 --> 00:52:08
			Which of these houses do you love?
		
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15
			But the point that I'm being made here is
		
00:52:17 --> 00:52:22
			to ask this question to predominantly black American audiences or even audience audiences of color.
		
00:52:23 --> 00:52:24
			Oh,
		
00:52:25 --> 00:52:26
			that the one on a flat?
		
00:52:28 --> 00:53:05
			All right. And the point that I'm making is that why is this not taken into consideration in terms
of gauging whatever level of Aryan Nation that Muslims may have from the host polity? Why is
religion, the only ingredient that's ever pointed to, you know, as an explanation for why Muslims
may feel a degree of alienation? All right, I think this is a point that I mean, really calls out
for, for some consideration. Now, two more points, and then we'll open for questions.
		
00:53:07 --> 00:53:29
			The other point is this. And then and this, I think, has a lot to do with a certain culture. And
this is more so the case among immigrant Muslims, but there is an extent to which sort of by osmosis
or inculturation, or even a number of indigenous Muslims have have adopted this. And this is this
		
00:53:32 --> 00:53:35
			classical or pre modern Islamic law
		
00:53:36 --> 00:53:44
			emerges out of what political theorists refer to as a, a weak state tradition.
		
00:53:45 --> 00:54:02
			While we've stated, I'm not talking about military power, all right. But I'm talking about states in
which the state itself is not the focal point of people who primary identity.
		
00:54:03 --> 00:54:06
			In other words, pre modern states
		
00:54:07 --> 00:54:17
			are some of us. Over here, you have some the primary sense of loyalty to family tribe.
		
00:54:18 --> 00:54:38
			On the other hand, your primary public loyalties to religion set, even maybe School of Law. The
state here is actually in the valley. And that's the lowest level of loyalty and sense of identity
that people feel towards the outside.
		
00:54:39 --> 00:54:40
			I enjoyed the state.
		
00:54:41 --> 00:54:43
			My state is not the opposite.
		
00:54:44 --> 00:54:51
			They're the opposite. All right. You have no family here like family, and you know,
		
00:54:52 --> 00:54:59
			religion, maybe ethnic group or race here, and then the maximum sort of sense of identity. God well
		
00:55:00 --> 00:55:46
			to stay, that's better for America. All right. Now, the point that I'm trying to make here is that
in coming out of a weak state tradition, all right, Muslims are still in a transitionary stage,
where a Wednesday culture and forms there that sensibilities, about the degree of loyalty to give to
anything, not simply the American state, but to any state. All right. And I know that there are some
here who are winning it that that certainly can apply to the Muslim world, where most of them seem
to be very loyal to their states. Wow, two things here, I would say, don't believe anything see,
first. And then secondly,
		
00:55:49 --> 00:56:14
			Muslims identify with Muslim states, primarily as repositories of cultural and ethnic identity. That
That isn't to say that, that, that, that to be an Egyptian, or to be an Indian, for example, is a
Cultural Historical identity that precedes the state and transcends the state.
		
00:56:16 --> 00:56:39
			The state is held to be a sort of repository of that identity, and among races, that they identify
with the state, in that state goes away, that's identified as Egyptians as Indians, etc, it is part
of their ethnic identity, and it's on that basis that they identified with with the state. This is
		
00:56:40 --> 00:56:59
			a what you might want to call, you know, a certain gap. And that that's going to take a matter of
time, before most of consulting emerged out this this weak state, a sort of mentality into a more
strong state one, but here, I have just two little questions.
		
00:57:00 --> 00:57:30
			First, one of the issues and by the way, not only religious Muslims, but religious Christians in
America have raised this point, Professor Steven Carter, for example, makes the point that one of
the one of the issues that religion faces in America is that our thinking in America tends to begin
with the state that the interests of the state and then to figure out somehow religion can be
brought into conformity with the interests of the state. All right. Now, if that's the case, I think
it's fair to ask the question.
		
00:57:33 --> 00:58:16
			Why religiously committed Muslims, or Christians for that matter what Jews for that matter, should
not reserve their deepest religious commitments for something other than the state, given that the
state is never going to prioritize a religion as a repository of values that, that inform and
provide a basis for life. The second issue that I want to raise is this, let's suppose that Muslims
emerge out of this weak state mentality, and they they arrive at a strong state political culture,
that is to say that they identify with the state, and they don't look to the state
		
00:58:17 --> 00:58:25
			to do to provide him with and to to oversee a social political war, that is in conformity with their
vision of
		
00:58:28 --> 00:58:42
			what would happen. If Muslims in America, for example, were to say, you know, what American state,
we want to push for, for prosecution for adultery and fornication.
		
00:58:45 --> 00:59:02
			With that being looked upon as simply being purely a matter of Muslims pursuing legitimate
interests. And by the way, if you will get this perspective of, of the black American community
right now, for example, that's community where some upwards of 65% of children are born out of
wedlock.
		
00:59:04 --> 00:59:59
			Would that be recognized as a legitimate aim? Or will this sort of be looked at as some sort of
stuffy fifth column attempt to sort of impose the fettuccine out on society? And so the point that
I'm making here is that, you know, the Muslims are to come into an identification with the American
state. Then there are there are there are some, some some there's some give and take that has to be
made on both sides. All right. Let me end by saying the following. I think that we are in a point in
our history, where we are in desperate need of open, intelligent, honest and courageous discussions,
debates and exchanges about the possibilities of America and the possibilities. Islam in America is
		
00:59:59 --> 00:59:59
			my home
		
01:00:00 --> 01:00:52
			that we will not suffer from what the French intellectual diamond wars are refers to as the tyranny
of the spectacle. The Tyranny of the spectacle, and when he's referring to is the fact that we end
up in a society in which the images that are produced about a particular group, undermine our
ability to actually encounter that group. In other words, I am talking to you face to face, I'm
touching you, I'm exchanging with you. But rather than hear me, the image that is produced about me,
comes between you and me, so that you can hear me and you can trust me, and therefore we cannot get
beyond where we are right now. Of course, this is going to take a lot of courage, a lot of digging
		
01:00:52 --> 01:00:59
			deep. And I'm not making a political slogan here. But let me just end by saying, Yes, we can