Shadee Elmasry – Sh Yahya Rhodus Convert Conference
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Shall I just couldn't I was so that was my that was really dumb
when he was off digging, oh, man Wila How did he laugh, I just
wanted to start by saying that it really is a blessing to be here.
And as someone who introduced to this religion, and converted to
Islam, that while absolutely that everybody in the community is
important in Islam is for everyone. And we have a universal
theme that I do that, also believe that in our particular context,
that converts require that special programs in special care, because
of the difficulty that is involved in conversion.
And I know some of you
grew up as Muslims might even say that, well, actually, it's harder
for me to practice my faith, even having an awesome family that
oftentimes it is or that you as a convert to practice. And there's
no doubt some ways that is true. There are certain things that I've
experienced in my own family. One of the most amazing was my
grandmother, who was a Christian until the day that she died. That
mean, at first, she was a bit opposed to me becoming Muslim,
eventually, after she took a liking to Islam would remind me to
pray. So that is a little bit odd that it's probably very different
than someone that grew up in an era that his family as a Muslim,
and would have to sneak in prayer, and so forth. Or if it was a woman
struggling with a job, or whether it was a man trying to grow a
beard or some outward form of religion, they might have their
own struggles in relation to that. But having said all of that, I
still think it is important that we reach out to Congress
specifically. And there was a number of reasons for that. And
given the limited nature of our time, I don't want to go too much
into that. But that is a topic that I do think we need to
seriously think about. And we need to be on multiple fronts at the
same time. And as I was speaking to that area in the corridor, is
that this is the most difficult thing of all, for us to maintain
this balance. And the reality is, is that in our own lives, and in
terms of the community work, is that we have to be on multiple
fronts at the same time. And my teachers one time likened it to
the type of circus, where did you get some type of that's that all
spinning here and you get it going, and then you get the other
ones spinning. And then you get a third one spinning, and a fourth
one spinning, and you quickly rush over here, because it's about to
stop spinning, you keep that one going. And then you go to the next
one, and you just are rushing from Baltimore to keep them spinning so
that something in your life doesn't collapse. That's our
reality, is that we don't have the luxury of focusing on just this or
just that. But the other aspect of this is, and that really saying
the commerce requires special focus, I think is self evident.
But the other aspect of this is and I say this, because my
comments, will that be assuming these underlying assumptions is
that I'm not going to assume that everything is rosy for Congress.
And I think that as is the case in general within the zucchini, but
specifically with the cover experience, there's a lot of pain.
And there's a lot of struggle. And there is a incredible need for
healing. And I believe that the way that we approach all of these
topics, just as the way that we have to approach our programs in
our community centers and our masajid, and our organizations and
all these other things that we're doing trying to offer service, it
has to be through the lens of healing, that we're dealing with
people that are going through a lot of difficulties. And
oftentimes people are not exposed to what they need to be exposed to
in order to build their own spiritual immune system, such as
ticket processing, such that what might be very difficult for
someone in a certain sense becomes easy. Many people don't have
access to those that source so that they can find that very
difficult thing, actually easy, although it is still irrational
possibility. So I do believe is that that there is ill a great
need for healing. And in this life, that I wanted to say a few
things about
that the topic of the Koran insofar as it relates to self
knowledge. And this is the task that I've been given. And the
first thing that I will say, to dovetail off of what both Sheikh
Amin says and Aisha mentioned is that revelation is the loftiest of
things. There's nothing higher than revelation and the hierarchy
of knowledge, that rather breadth revelation is much higher than
anywhere
Rational knowledge revolution is much higher than any experimental
knowledge. And it is only that rooting ourselves in a worldview
of towhee belief in the Divine unity, and all of the details that
then unfold from that, will we be able to truly use all rational and
experimental knowledge properly.
And that revelation is something immense and heavy at the same
time. And when it relates to Congress, there are a multitude of
reasons that people actually convert. Different things bring
people into the fold of the sun. But then the challenge becomes
after someone accepts the basic tenets of faith, and they enter
into Islam, with that ever so comprehensive word from another
school law, the challenge becomes how am I going to now mold myself
to the teachings, the source of which are revelation?
What this implies is that naturally all people will have
things that attract them to the dean, but then they will have
things that need to work on in relation to the dean, it's not
going to happen overnight. And so we can think of it as the
opposite. And this becomes a greater challenge in the time in
which we did were that the narcissistic tendencies in our
community are at an all time high, because so many things around us
are teaching us to focus on the self. And the upshot of much of
this conversation relates to us wanting to have what we want, as
opposed to is ever so unpopular term in the modern world, which is
learning how to submit. But everything about Islam was
ultimately submission. And that when you realize is that there is
a standard that our Prophet came with. In the Quran is Revelation.
It presents the teaching of the Prophet SAW sent him from a
standpoint of certitude. It assumes the existence of Allah the
Quranic discourse assumes the existence of Allah, one of the
verse says that Athena is Schuck father is some of it what all is
there in even any doubts about the existence of God, the Originator
of the heavens in the earth. And incidentally, here, the usage of
the word falter is important. Because what that indicates, is
really the first creator event I've asked one time was in the
desert. And that even though he was an Arabic speaker, he wanted
to know the meaning of that word, the way he did was understood by
the desert errors, and it just so happens to pass by a couple of
Arab desert Arabs who are arguing about a well, and then one of them
said to the other, no,
I am the one who first built it. And he said, Then I came to
understand what the meaning of falter is, it is the first year is
the one who was the first creator, the one that originated
everything's analyzed data. And this is how creation from x Nino
nothing to something. And that is only for lower Supreme Courts.
And when it presents his perspective, it presents it from
the perspective of absolute truth. And that gets into our own
understanding of that how we know what it is that we know. And there
is indeed, that a very close relationship between truth in
between existence.
existence itself is that because that falsehood, even though it
could exist in a relative sense, it never could ever exist in an in
an absolute sense. And for this reason, that our Prophet said,
praising this particular poet who came in the pre Islamic Arab times
of the jafria he said that the truest word that any poet has ever
said is Allah Who Lucia in masala Allah Balti. Indeed isn't
everything other than a law false. In other words, non existent
Hakuna humans and gooloo name Allah Muhammad is out, you know,
and every pleasure by its nature will perish. He said this was the
very truest of words, in other words, that the way that we
approach belief in God is one from a perspective of actually
questioning our own existence, not that Allah, this is really
different question, in other words, is that when we tie this
into the Convert experience and for the various reasons that
people do convert, the most important frame that we have to
have? And how we approach our deen then is how I can take a path or I
attain what it is that I'm supposed to attain.
Now that seems simple enough, but the problem is the socialization
that takes place in the community after that, and again, I'm saying
this for a particular purpose, knowing that there is a lot of
pain I'm not
I'm not blaming anyone, I don't believe in dichotomies, but I do
believe in analyzing what is wrong, and then finding solutions.
There's reasons for it. And that this is oftentimes what happens as
we become socialized in the community that we pick up certain
tendencies where all of a sudden had this vast perspective in
really love for everyone who says that you like it a lot. And that
starts to dwindle over time. And that number is cut in half, and
then in a fourth, and then one in a third, and then in like, even
less, and then in the sixth, and then 1/10, and so forth. And then
we're only really allowed you that like and spend time with a very
small group of people. And I think this is a great disservice. And
this is one of the meanings that came to my mind, when was that I
mentioned, the second verse in the Quran after Bismillah R, which is
100 ilaha. Adenine. And notice here, this points immediately, in
addition to the point she mentioned, the fact that the
Prophet was not calling to himself, rather, he was pointing
to Allah, that immediately there's a mention of universality, or open
Ireland, all of the worlds, the universality of his son. And this
is something that we have to keep at the forefront of our minds, in
every conversation that we have. And every program that we have,
and every discussion that we have, this has to be central, in our
mind, this is a universal being. It is for everyone and every time.
And that yes, there's a special challenge in our particular time.
Because I would argue that even though we have in the age of
information, more exposure to more people that have ever existed in
that ever existed, and as long as people have existed on Earth, is
that we tend to be that more narrow minded and most people that
ever lived. And it's an irony, you think it would be the opposite.
But that modern thought is some of the most intolerant thought there
really is. And the true question is not not to get into this topic,
because it is a huge can of worms is not whether it's an M can
tolerate liberalism, it's the opposite is whether liberal
democratic societies can tolerate it's not. That really is the
question, not the other way around. And so that there is an
extreme amount of intolerance in modern conceptions of knowledge.
And the cold term of genocide is a pisser Messiah not to get too
academic, you'll have to forgive me, I've been behind the computer
for the many months, if I'm using terms that I don't normally do.
It's because I've been in too many books, I need to get back to the
with people. So hopefully, that won't last much longer. But it's
an amazing term, the code term of genocide, which in the colonial
period, this was always there as where it was a system aside. And
there was a conscious attempt to destroy all other ways of knowing
other than the Western European way of knowing. And the
repercussions of this are with us to this very day, new age. And it
has spilled over into that the Muslim world. And then it's still
here for people that are raised in western schools. And then we see
all these clashes that results that from these perspectives, and
other words is that not only did they want to eliminate large
numbers of people in the name of conquest, that in pillaging and
plummeting, but also is that they wanted to put in into other
people's ways of knowing and don't think that this was an accident.
Why do you think when
Napoleon Bonaparte showed up to the shores of Egypt, in 1798, that
he brought with him a team of scientists, in addition to the
military conquest, he wanted to make a point that not only can we
dominate you militarily, is that we can know more about you than
you know about your own self. In other words, that you all are
outside of history, so to speak, until we put you into history. And
everything that happened in the pre that Napoleon period of Egypt
doesn't really matter. Because we are the ones that are going to
validate your existence and we are going to tell you how to
understand yourselves. It's not a joke. And that this is a very
complicated story, the upshot of which, which is the important
aspect of this is, is that the vast majority of Muslims in the
Muslim world have a very serious inferiority complex. And we rely
on every more telling than if we were say otherwise. This is the
reality. And so someone that has an inferiority complex, if they
come into a place where people are willing, accepting their faith, is
that you can see the recipe for how this is going to happen where
there could be disasters at times. If you're not willing to
acknowledge a person's past and everything that made them who they
are.
And to see the way our profit would have seen good for what good
truly is in bad for what bad truly is not in a warped understanding
in a true sense, such that you can validate the good and such that
you can slowly and gently cultivate in a person's abandoning
what is not so good over an extended period of time is that,
then you're going to see a lot of the problems that we have to this
day and age.
And so that this issue is, I think, one of the most important,
and I really want everyone to just ask themselves, and I want to
share a passage with you. There's a lot of things that I would like
to say, I hope I can get it all out. Especially when you know,
mean talks, it really excites me, love to hear him speak, I would
much rather hear him speak than have to torment you all the things
that I'm saying. But
there's a lot that I want to say, but I want to just put this
forward. If someone were to ask you, and I'm gonna give you 10
seconds just to really think about it. What is the purpose of the
Quranic revelation? Why did a law reveal the court? I'm
gonna give you 10 seconds, you don't have to blurt it out just in
turn.
Why did a law of yield?
Everyone just in their head, just everyone in their head? That what
just answer that question to yourself if someone were to ask
you that, that whether it be a Muslim or non Muslim, your parents
or anyone, why did a large and legit I don't even reveal the
Quran?
And I want to share with you
two passages
from two of the great scholars of Islam who answered that question.
And this is found in the science of the psalm known as the Illuma,
or ants,
the Quranic sciences, that tafsir is a sub branch, if you will, of
renewing for an Quran series commentary, the Quran or sometimes
you can see it in the Quran as something separate, that it deals
with certain topics that are not necessarily covered in FCU. So
this is first the last statement of revenues. HNB.
He says, The purpose of the Koran is to call creation to the worship
of Allah, and to injure his religion.
And then you said this, therefore this purpose necessitates to
matters, that to them, all of the meanings of the Quran return,
a clarification of the worship to which the creation is called. And
motivating the creation to this worship
event was added another one of the great scholars of the sun, this
was his response to this ever so important question.
The secret of the Koran, It's utter essence in ultimate purpose
is the call the creation to the Almighty, the lord of this world
and the next, and the creator of the heavens and the earth, and
everything between them, and that which is hidden to the ark.
And the many other statements of the scholars who also attempted to
ask this true perennial question, they're all similar.
And what is the common thread between all of them, ultimately,
the Quran has been sent for us. It has been sent for you, it has been
sent for me it has been sent for all of humankind. And the whole
purpose is for us to come to know our Lord.
Now, we probably all knew that even if we might not have been
able to articulate that, in that 10 seconds where we were thinking
about that. But to what degree is that reflected in our community?
That to me is the big question
as people convert them to this religion, and you can extend it by
saying people that get back into their Deen that this question
becomes muddled in their mind because the the way we are
approaching oftentimes our communities
and this is what we have to raise ourselves up to is that our
Prophet was granted he was given prophecy. Do we realize what this
is? Prophecy and revelation? What are we talking about here? This
transcends time in place this transcends gender is transcends
color of skin, ethnicity, geographical location, all of
this. We are talking about Nuba
And why prophethood and revelation. And unfortunately, as
someone who really feels the responsibility of wanting to share
this reality with our people, and when I mean our people, I mean,
our people here in the United States of America, first and
foremost, and by extension, all of our enables until we reach the
remaining parts of the world. But we've shared with them a lot of
things. But when can we say that we have really shared with them
new who, what and what profit would and revolution have we
really done that?
That where we have shared them with them, the essence of what
this whole matter is about, this is not something that you could
speak about, this is something that requires that you live by it.
And that one of the most amazing embodies, to me is the story when
our product sold, a lot of your sudden it was coming that well
after he left government, he spent 13 years in America. And then
eventually he spent almost 10 years in Medina. But in the eighth
year of it his Euro, so 21 years after he first received His
revelation, he's going back into Makkah, and that there's a
beautiful story that goes along with this, because that one of the
companions was carrying the flag, the standard of the Prophet.
And someone heard him as he was walking, he said, as a yo yo Mel
hammer, he said, today is a day of slaughter. He says and Yom to
visit finish today, that the record as you're going to be
humiliated.
And someone heard that came back to the prophet, and mentioned to
him what the man is. And the Prophet changed the entire frame.
And he said, No, a Yo Yo Ma. He said, today is a day of mercy.
When yo twice it fresh today is the day that caught a fish that
they will be elevated, and they will be a noble. And the Prophet
to teach a lesson told Batman to pass the flag to his son. He
didn't completely remove it from him, he left it with his progeny.
But he was that dealt with in that sense that he passed the flag to
his son. So as they are marching about 10,000, deep, which was an
enormous that size of an army for the Arabian Peninsula, going into
Mecca, mukarram. And you just could have imagined it, that Abu
Soufiane was standing next to Abbas, the uncle of the province
of Mycenae
and that he looks at all of these people. And you could just imagine
that diversity, nobles from coronation were not seen with
certain people before, but for Muslims is that that the playing
ground had been leveled, is it everyone was mixed. And in fact,
people that previously did not have levels in society, or at the
front of the armies because of their knowledge of the Quran. So
he's witnessing this site. And you can imagine now they've been
experiencing the presence of the Prophet for year after year after
year. As Allah says, CMAT Hovi will do in this route, the traces
their traces are in their faces, their that their signs are in
their faces from the traces of frustration. And true religiosity
will lead to an impact even on the way that you look physically.
And it will adorn you in every way and most importantly, the level of
the heart. But even so, he's meant to seeing this. And then he turns
to Abbas, Elsevier doesn't he says about how the world muka even a
Heke Yeah, plus is the minion of your nephew has become great hope
I pass. And I pass looks at Sophia, Sophia. It says, Yeah,
Sophia, in her hand. Number one. It says this has nothing to do in
brackets with dominion, or trying to build an empire. He says, this
is prophecy. You are witnessing before your eyes, a prophet of
God.
And in this whole process, and I think this really is one of the
big questions for me is that this thing is not going to be easy. But
one of the things that I really truly believe if we bring our
people watching, right revelation, and obviously we're not talking
about us receiving revelation in vain the means of revelation to
them. And we have in our mind at the forefront of my mind, we
realize what prophethood and what prophecy is. And we realize what
that means to our own selves and the standard that has to be there
for us to attempt to live up to and to see that needs to be
planted to ensure the transmission of these realities.
To the next generation is that if time spread time goes on long
enough, and we're able to do this is that that, to me, the sky's the
limit, nothing would be far fetched in terms of what we can
attain in terms of our peoples responding to this eternal reality
that has come in the form of the deen of Islam, through our Prophet
Muhammad Sallallahu said, This, to me is the essence of what this is
all about. And this is the essence of what we have to live up to, and
especially the Convert experience, it must be nurtured and must be
harnessed. So that that light that brought them there that Hima in
spiritual aspiration that they had in the beginning of their
conversion can continue on. And those that come in with a lower
degree of that spiritual aspiration is that they can be
impacted by those who are around them to also that learn to want to
give more and want to do more as a result, and to have higher levels
of practice, as opposed to blockiness. And, as is the case in
Islamic history, is that our greatest enemy has always been and
always will be our own selves.
Our greatest enemy as our own selves, it's as simple as that.
And having said all of that, this is the frame, I hope to save you
things are probably I don't know how much time I have. But I wanted
to just share just a few things about the Quranic perspective of
knowing ourself, and the importance of self knowledge.
And we tend to think of self knowledge, as something that
you're going to learn and kind of a pseudo approach to that some
type of spirituality of the modern world or something like this. But
this couldn't be further from the truth. And that there is a very
important verse that I would like to share in this regard. That
proves is that knowledge of ourselves is a prerequisite fully
ultimately for us to know our Lord. And this is a court onic
perspective. And these are the verses that insert in Hashem or
not first says yeah, you at the top Allah will punt on Nasim at
the bottom Allah Allah Allah Who
are you who believe have Taqwa of Allah? And that lets your own
cells that look to what they have put forth for tomorrow, the
afterlife, have Taqwa of Allah and then Allah knows full well all
that you do. And then there's a prohibition on what I took. Can
Medina does Allah and Savile and possible do not being those that
have forgotten a law and as a result is that he has caused them
to forget their own selves? In other words, is that they go hand
in hand? What is the description of these people who like are most
passive, whom these are the people that have diverted from the way
in other words, there is a correlation between knowledge of
the self and knowledge of our Lord. And the Quranic discourse is
one that emphasizes just as the sunnah of our Prophet slide seven,
the internal dimension of the human being.
And so when it comes to what we normally call an English a heart,
there are four Quranic terms that are used. You have the sub, you
have the color, you have the ad, and you have the loan. Now we
could translate them to differentiate them. But I'll
explain conveniently, that as once God of Islam, Al Hakim return
really has how they relate one to another
is that all of them could be called, but we normally say
hearts. So like when we say it when the quarter was alum,
national Cassandra, have we not expanded your southern you
translate English as breast, but if you say that to someone, okay,
or chest, okay? It's not a reference to like this right here.
It's not what is referring to is referring to an internal dimension
of human being. So what that actually means and what he says
is, is that the heart and reality has four layers. And each layer of
the heart has certain things that happen in it.
So the expansion of the heart happens at the level of the
Southern which is the outermost dimension of the heart which you
could translate his chest Yes, but you could just also say the outer
heart and then after the solder, then you have the pearl, which is
the word we normally think of in Arabic for hearts. So you have
that aid, that more inner dimension of the heart, if you
will, the less outer but then you have what is called the full and
the full
Add is a more subtle dimension of the heart. So it's the inner
heart.
So, the outermost part is Southern. And then the last outer
is the pun and then the inner heart is the slab. And then the
innermost heart is what is called the Loop
The Loop that is the core aspect of your heart. Now, to complicate
things more, and this is why scholars that tried to put all
this together at a later time is that we also have other terms that
are used for the internal dimension of the human being terms
like RWR spiritual terms, like knifes sole terms like AKA, or in
the verbal form of an attack known, which is to think the
intellect. And then some of the even say that a Quran points to a
fourth dimension, which is your sip your innermost secret,
and how to understand all of these, that is a task in and of
itself. And that surely isn't what we're trying to achieve tonight.
What we're trying to achieve tonight is just to talk about the
importance of the heart operatic discourse, and that I want to
share again, a passage of Imam Azad to really hit this home.
Because this passage essentially that it sums up a court onic
perspective of the heart. And given that I only have three
minutes up, this is probably the best place to end.
The honor and excellence of humankind, in which humankind
surpasses all other sorts of creatures is humankind's aptitude
for knowing Allah raised me to him. This knowledge is humankind's
beauty and perfection in glory in the present world, and humankind's
permission in store for the world to come. Humankind is prepared for
this knowledge only through their hearts, and not by means of any of
their members, their limbs. For this the heart that knows Allah
and works for Allah and strives towards Allah, in draws nearer to
Allah, and has unveiled for that which is in the Presence of Allah.
The limbs of the body, on the other hand, are merely followers,
servants and instruments that the heart uses and employs, as the
king uses his servant in the shepherd makes use of his flock,
or the craftsman of his tool for it is the heart that is accepted
by Allah, when it is free from all saved him, but failed from Allah
when it becomes fully occupied with anything other than Him. And
then he goes on to say, it is the heart it is in reality, obedient
to Allah, and the acts of devotion that are manifested in the members
of the body are but it's lights apart is that which, if humankind
knows it, humankind knows his own self. And if he knows his own
self, he knows his Lord. And if he knows not himself, he knows not
his Lord. He who knows not his own heart is still more ignorant of
everything else, since the majority of humankind know not
their own hearts, in their own selves, for intervention has been
made between them and their own selves. And then he says,
that he who, that he who knows not his hearts, to watch over it and
be mindful of it, and to observe what shines on it and then the
treasures of the metal Coots. He is one of those whom Allah the
Exalted, has said, Those who forgot a lot, and he made them to
forget their own souls.
And that's a long passage, but essentially summarizes all up is
that the Quran teaches is that the source of transformation happens
at the level of the heart. And it's only through knowledge of our
own self that we come to know Allah. And it's only through
knowledge of Allah is knowledge that comes to us by way of
revelation that we can make sense of anything else, ultimately, in a
holistic sense, not in a compartmentalized sense. It
requires our knowledge of our Lord is a prerequisite for us to be
able to fully not only understand everything else in creation, but
to also use it for our benefit. And in doing so, is that we are
exposing ourselves to be able to fulfill our purpose here on Earth.
Inshallah, tada, I think that we can stop there, and I'm sure there
might be some questions or clarifications. So I was
So I want to thank Shahir here for that talk. It was really
full of a lot of knowledge and I was barely able to keep up with my
notes. And so we are opening the floor to questions. So if anyone
has any questions, please raise your hand in the back of the first
one to go up.
Microphones becomes
and so the microphone will be going around them just raise your
hand.
Good.
I just
I just said wanted to know which el Zalman book are you reading
from?
It was a book titled An English a marvel of heart, a Marvel's of the
heart. What do you want me to do?
Awesome.
In old times, Imam Ghazali referred to the heart is the
source of knowledge. But now that science is revealed that the mind
is the source of knowledge, not the heart, the heart is merely a
tool, it's complex.
As far as what I know, and the limited knowledge of science is
that it also knows new researches. So so there's neurons in the heart
that are very similar to the neurons in the mind. And so you
have these books that talk about this nowadays, and
that science is always going to be further discovering the links
between the mind and the heart, those of us for the most part, had
a very clear understanding of the two. And that there's no doubt
that we have a mind that is distinct of the intellect, aka is
distinct from the pundit from the heart, they're distinct. And that,
to what degree that they actually work one with another. It's a type
of knowledge that is not definitive, we can only point to
how it actually might work. And much of it will remain in the
realm of theory, which doesn't negate us doing scientific
experiments to find out the links between the two and so forth, but
that we have a sense of different types of knowledge. And when we
study this science, one of the ways that we differentiate the
knowledge of the office from the intellect, or we have to be very
careful calling that the mind because something very specific is
referred to in modern psychology and other disciplines that are
research in this field, that when they speak about mind, and that
apart, and generally speaking, the mind is the world of logic, it is
the world of reason, it is the world of rational thought it is
the world of mathematical computation, it is the world of
that
a equals b, b equals c and syllogisms. And then such that A
equals C, or as the hearts knowledge is a different type of
knowledge. And in the same book, the book of morals of the heart,
that knowledge of the heart, ie for nonprofits, which comes in the
form of inspiration is more like a spring underneath the ground where
the water comes from within, as opposed to a lake where the
tributaries bring the water, and then it sells. So we do, there's
two things here, one, I'm not ready to fully.
That gets into some scientific evidence that says that you just
need because there's conflicting sides, where they talk about how
now that the mind, the heart sometimes functions just like the
mind, so it makes it a little bit more nuanced in that sense. But
also, we believe in other types of knowledge that science can explain
inspiration. We believe in inspiration. And we believe that
it's one particular it's a source of knowledge. And there's no doubt
that is more associated with the heart than it is with the mind.
And so that just as we believe in Rational knowledge, also
agreements are rational knowledge. And the greatest categories of
rational knowledge is Revelation. So I think that's just the
starting point. Whereas these things really require a lot of
very serious research and very detailed work, but these are just
starting points for discussion.